Angel is brought to you by Salesforce Essentials. Jump start sales and support by leveraging the world's number one c R M At a startup price point of just $25 a month per user, Go to salesforce dot com slash angel for an additional 50% off and a free on boarding call and linked it you already know linked in as the world's largest professional network. It's also a better way to find great talent. Go to Lincoln dot com slash angel to get a $50 credit towards your first job. Post terms and conditions apply. And now part two of Jason's conversation with entrepreneur and investor Dave Morin. Enjoy. When I did PTSD training, I did, cmdr. There's really which was super powerful for me because it puts you in a meditative state. Your whole pads and you were goggles, and I just went back to the World Trade Center and just put myself in the foot of it. And I talked to the therapist about what I was experiencing and really after. Maybe I think I did it six times after the fourth or fifth times I stopped crying. I start having my heart race.

And I was like, Okay, this was a tragedy. There's been many tragedies like this inhuman existence, and I can move forward, respect the people who lost their lives, cherish the life I have in my family has. And I was able to contextualize what happened. Where, Before that I think I was just like, Oh my God, The world is so evil. People could just murder thousands of innocent people, you know? And I could talk about it now. The heart rate is not going crazy.

I used to not be able to talk about Italy where if it happened on TV, I had to turn the TV off and get out of the room. Or else I would just My heart would start racing. Never as the first time I've ever shared this with people was a super traumatic thing for me. Um,

it's the same thing happens with founders, right? You go through a near death. I mean, have you utterly right? Like who is it? Um, is it Ah, Mike. Ah, floodgate. Yeah. He, like, put together Mabel's put together this like, near death experience thing that meaning companies that went through a near death experience. And how did they make it through it,

right? I mean, every founder has these stories, right? You go through these, like, really intense, Like you have to lay off, you know, all of your staff or you're like these air, just like, as traumatic as a experience could possibly be. Yeah. And so how are you gonna deal with that? Right. Well,

there's a lot of different ways. Um And I guess all I would I would say, is if you're if you're really struggling and you can't find resource is and you need help finding resource is, you know, send me a d m on Twitter going sunrise dot bio, which is our website

to submit a sunrise dot bio be io is an extension. Yeah. Really? Yeah, that's awesome. The and so you are funding. What do you funding with science? Just science.

You just wanna delete Lee in science? Like we're not trying to build startups or technology.

I almost invested the psilocybin company that was doing the trials and her up. That compass? Yeah. Peter Thiel, I guess back then I looked at it and I was like, This is one of these weird situations where I have LPs, and I'm not sure I can do it with my LPs, But I should just wait a little bit,

Yeah, I mean, I think they'll be many waves, like, you know, we've been through this ecosystem stuff before. I think there's gonna be a lot of opportunity. I mean, the biggest probably opportunity in this space right now is building clinics and building clinical either applications or physical clinics or end of the day. We don't have enough therapists like we don't need another. Ah, you know, match up with the therapist to chat app.

Well, we need no more the place to go where you can do this under supervision, and we'll go to Mexico untraded place and take a bow. Gabo Gay Boga Boga O R. Alaska In a village where if something goes wrong, it's not science, and it's not like there. No, no offense to those people. I'm sure that's fine, but people die sometimes because they have some reaction and should be done in a medical facility. The fact that we do not have medical facilities where people could do this properly is

Bonk. It's not just that I mean the whole mental health. We could go for an hour. Yeah, it's like it's really bad. So we need, like, startups that air, you know, building clinics

we need start us that a country that is super okay with psychedelic research and therapies. Portugal. Fantastic. So in Portugal, if you were to do m d m a couples there appear. I'm not sure,

but all drugs were criminalized

in Portugal. You're kidding? Yeah. Okay, wait. Producer Jacky, any two first class tickets for Dave and I will be back in a week. Uh,

I mean, on every metric, they've proven that it's the best. It's the best public policy.

Well, yeah. And if you look at just how we classify drugs cannabis much less destructive than alcohol, Then if you look at amphetamines, opioids, heroin, crack and cocaine. Ah, if you were to re list them in terms of how dangerous they are, obviously opioids and the methamphetamine category would be just disastrous. Number one. Yeah, and behind that would be alcohol. And then way down the list after sugar. Yeah, you totally would be had a vision and psychedelia. It's strange. It's so weird that we got to this place in the country where LSD and mushrooms and Kenta mean or put in the same classes opioids and how hard will ride.

You know, it's a hard one, because the we weren't alive. The you know, the context is probably different. Sure, we could talk about this forever. Yeah, but, you know, we're here now, and, um I don't know. I'm I'm heartened that there's a lot of progress that these tools air

MDM a trials right now. Yeah, tend to mean trials right now means actually legal. Oh, yeah, Yeah. Oh, so you can prescribe academy? Yes. And it's in fact,

as of march 1st, the FDA has fully approved it for depression, so it wasn't fully approved. It was off label so doctors could prescribe it. But it was, You know, doctors with their, you know, do no harm can prescribe whatever they want. That's legal, Right? But Johnson and Johnson subsidiary called Jansen. I got ketamine all the way through the FDA process for depression. So as of march

1st as a drip, that's an I V trio.

They've released a new ah nasal spray. You can take it home with you, but it's a better way to deliver it in clinic.

So in clinic and you have it in you sit there and mellow out. Hopefully it Yeah.

Wow. Yeah, so that's there. And then m d M A in Seoul side burner and phase three with the FDA, both with breakthrough designation, which means that the FDA wants to see them move through as fast as possible. How and if you get into Phase three more often than not, that you go back into the public market because Phase three is about safety, not about efficacy. Phase two is about proving that it works for the indicator.

Obviously, M. D M. A. Is gonna work for people who are struggling in therapy, PTSD, everything I've done. It's so obvious. Now let's talk about investing. It has been a great

discussion for taking time on that.

I mean, I think it's important for founders, it's the most important. Like why? To do something as ambitious to start a company and then be overwhelmed by did not have support. It is madness that we like. You're saying, put millions of dollars and put somebody in the cockpit of $100 million A $10 million.5 million dollar airplanes, and we haven't taught them how the Jek see works or how to fly it perfectly

like no auction to mask. Yeah, that's a

really good analogy. Like how high can you go

find Giles like, you know, it's like Good luck, Pete, Like flying a helicopter. You know, it's like it's

crazy. It might work out, but 70% of dozen think. Imagine if 70% of helicopters pilots killed themselves and crashed. Yeah, you'd be like, uh, maybe we should do some more training,

No question. Especially with so many people passionate about the Warriors and this, like we need to treat founders

just the same. It's amazing. Just you've got me thinking about what we could do that would be more regular in terms of checking in with people and just, you know, after efforts. And I have an episode with Jerry Kelowna coming, who is a great

coach. I love Jerry. Jerry's great from Jerry's retreats last year and each one of the best experiences of my life.

Tell me, what was it like? He's just mensch. Yeah, is maybe the right. We're super Mench,

But like Yoda. Yeah, everyone says that he's really gifted. And, um, you know, when I started this project, there's no one that I get introduced to. More like our joke is that if we are introduced to each other once a week

like then something's wrong, You should know. You should know J everyone very every week. I met Jerry when I was 24 years old in New York. Friends

ever since, he's just great, you know, and I in Yeah, we went through a very similar stories and, you know, I just I really respect him and I just think he's really wonderful. So I was lucky that he invited me on one of his retreats. I highly recommend. Actually, that's maybe a one. Last recommendation is Jerry's reboot. Reboot

Retreats are coming out. Scaling sales is so hard, you know that. But it's so essential. You need scale, your sales process, your team and, of course, your software. You know sales force is the world's number one customer relationship management flatworm, also known as C R M, and now with Salesforce essentials. You get easy out of the box tools and support had a start up price point, and that's critical. Here are the benefits you're gonna get set up instantly, and you could easily scale your sales team by customizing with clicks. You don't need to write any code.

You will get simple integrations that connect and integrate all of your data under one roof, and you'll have full cycle customer support so you can automatically connect multiple support channels. You'll be able to automate busywork and repetitive tasks so you're not wasting your time, and customers can help themselves. Of course, with the self service support site, everything you need is on one screen so you can track e mails, calls and meetings from your inbox. Get access to the world's number one C R M at a cost fit. For a start, go to salesforce dot com slash angel and you will get a 50% discount with an annual contract and you'll get a free onboard training session. So go to salesforce dot com slash angel and get that 50% discount, right? All right, let's get into angels funding. I'm gonna do my lightning round with you.

Um, what makes a great founder? What makes a great founder not a good founded on, Okay, founder, But really the great ones that you've worked with. What do they share in common? Um, usually

great found. Ah, that's an interesting question. What makes a great founder? They're all characteristic geek, you know. But there's

this must be some

threats. There's this thing that when you sit down with certain founders that there's like a sense of inevitability. It's like they're sort of like, Yes, they're gonna do it whether you are with them

or not leaving

the station there looking like through you

or like into you, like Travis and Garrett with uber or Zach with Facebook, It's like, This is happening for you with path just like this is happening, you can be part of it. It's like

they're going to manifest it. You can, and

that's like it's actually

really tangible. Like you talk. Sit down with anybody who's done this for a long time, and it's really tangible, like that's a real thing.

Evan Ability. Yeah, it's this inevitability that what they're saying they were going to do. It's

like it's like you've come across the jet

I or something. It is like a gentle Yeah,

it's like they have, like, force powers or something. I like they're tapped into something. I mean, I think that's really all. I think there's this other thing, which is an ability to think big. But it's not just big thinking. Like anybody can sit around and just throw ideas out. There's this, like ability to be expansive in terms of receiving feedback, you know, having conversations with like an investor and saying, Oh, yeah, they listen.

But then they like, multiply what you're saying, and it's almost like they're unlocking markets in their mind that, like, weren't there before. And that's like a really thing. Um,

it is interesting when I have conversations with people I talk about how, when the great founders I get into, like a volley with them, a back and forth, like tennis or ping pong, where I'll ask a question and they build on it. They asked me a question. I have a follow up. I have a thought. They can expand that thought and you're like, Wow, this person you're in almost like a zone with them a flow experience because they're so deep into the product, the customer, the vision, the playing field. There's some construct out there that they're going to be putting a product into some system. They know ahead of time.

I'm introducing this into the world. Here's how the world's gonna respond. It's almost like you're saying before where Zach could see four moves like a chess player with Travis and Garrett like, especially with Travis, because Garrett's kind of quiet. But Travis is not. You could really tell he was like Okay, well, here's how we're gonna do that. Here's how they're gonna react. Here's how we're gonna react to their reaction. And then here's how we're gonna get them to react.

It's almost you know what? My favorite quotes is This William Gibson quote. The future is here. It's not evenly distributed. Yeah, these founders that air well,

this genre that we're talking about, it's almost like they come from the future land. They're like,

This is how the future is going to be. And it's not just this, like pie in the sky like, Well, maybe it's like a Ziff there explaining to you a future that they already live in and you're not in yet. It should be right, and you're like, Oh, it's really interesting, right? And I think that's that's a huge deal and I guess that also implies that there is like there's generating ideas.

But I think there's

like a higher quality level of idea generation that some people are pasta. It's like it's like being ableto know the future. But know what's possible now, right, like this was a big lesson I learned from Steve Jobs is that

they're sort of like there's, there's

all these things we can make in the future, right? But then there's like Here's the future that's possible now near future, right? Like we can take these materials and turn it into this phone and this interface. And if we do all of that, it will actually be good and consumers will understand it. Today. There's There's also that this other genre, which is like trying to do wild future stuff that's clearly not going to work right and like that to me, there's a subtle difference there between the founders that are often the future. That's probably not gonna work out.

It's like some delusional future that, like we're gonna be able to do this and it's like not really it's literally

like I remember when, you know, like Travis and Graves, I think Graves was actually on the front end of the first over e mails. When they first finally started,

he was gonna be the CEO. People don't remember. And then Travis called me. One day is like, this guy's gonna be the CEO. You still invest? Yeah. Who? Ryan who? I'm investing in. You and I almost didn't invest. He's like, trust me is my guy was like, All right, fine. And then he's like, You know what? I'm gonna be the CEO we talked about. We changed our minds. That was all in the course of a

two month period. But if you look at those first e mails, they're like, yo, download this up and like, we only have a few cars. But, you know, try it out, right? And so it's literally like saying, Here's the future, right? Like you can use it now And that's a muse like the mark of I call it great product person, right that, like they are delivering the future now, they're like, literally giving you a future which is is here for you today. Like there's a big difference. I think between that and what I call the like want the bank shot like If

we do this, then this half the mass data unlocks we have a business model is critical mass. They never would.

And so I don't know. I think those were some of the things. And then you can get into other things like grit and determination and integrity. Like, um, I always try to look for those things to, um, I also try to meet with people multiple times because I find this is a thing I do with hiring as well, because if you want to talk to somebody a second time, I think that's a signal,

right if they don't want to or you

want if you want to. If

I want to continue

talking to the person, it's like that means everybody wants to continue talking

to him something boring or interesting, fascinating.

And that's something that I think is It's a nuance, but I think it applies to many things, not just this. It's like also good for hiring and

all kinds of things that I think correlates with is your ability to lead in the future. So if you and I want to talk to Travis again, or Ryan or whoever it happens to be there is a likelihood that other people will, too, Like you're saying, which means they will be able to recruit. They will be ableto have talent and customers and partners are other investors. Exactly. So it's not exactly like ability, but it is sort of under charisma. Yeah, it's kind of in that intangible. Yeah, well, I think

a lot of what you're trying to look for these kinds of things, like integrity. How do you figure that out in one meeting or this intangible like ability to recruit and yeah, gather influence, whether its employees or whoever they're talking Thio. These are hard things to look at in one meeting. Yeah, and so how do you What do you do to kind of figure those things

out? Takes time? Um, what do you think when you meet with the founder and you know, a couple of minutes into the meeting like this isn't for you? What are the things that are signaling that I mean, obviously, a lack of integrity or a lack of charisma or a lack of depth in terms of talking about the product would be the opposite of what you just said. I don't know if those of the coral it's or something else. You tell me

that's a hard one, you know, because there's also this thing that happens when your angel investing your You're also doing it for yourself in a lot of ways, like I view it is, I must view it like what I like to do is being a producer in a way like in the music business, there's people who, like work with artists to help them make their music better, right? And so it's like you might not be into certain genres right now, right now, So why not? You might I might have thought it was for me. But then I sit down with them and then, you know, I'm just not gonna be passionate about this. That's one thing. Um,

yeah, there's

this other thing, which is the product thinking wasn't actually at the depth that it seemed, Um, although I tend to do this thing, which is that I try to go into a meeting thinking that I'm going to do it like I'm usually on offense like I try to almost never be on defense like I try to not take deal flow meetings like I try to develop ideas that I think are are areas where I want to be. And then I'll find a founder company that I think is interesting, and then I'll go to that company. And so by the time I'm sitting with the founder, I'm already, like, ready to do it. And

so I'm getting you're interested in? Yeah,

I'm like I'm or trying to be convinced out of it than convinced into it. If that makes sense, I don't usually make that transparent or sometimes I do. But it's like I'm usually trying to come to the person versus the other direction. Now that's not always the case. I come to open Angel for whatever you know. You end up in a lot of situations

where you'll be a little promiscuous. Try on some meeting,

see what happens. There's tons of that. That's in that case. Then you're always looking for simple stuff. I think, like product up. Yeah, business model depth, I mean, and that's something that I've only gotten. I've only gotten good at business model stuff. I think over time, like that's like I was not good at that

at all in the beginning. Let's let's unpack both product and businessmen. I wanna start with product. You're You're the product persons product person. People like Zach look to you to help with product copies. Zach has copied literally three or four of the core features of path and put them into Facebook. He copied the emoji strip that you innovated with. He copied the close friends concept, and he copied the group's concept. You know, more of a close social network. Um, how do you as a very high level shooter like Steph Curry of product. How do you make a decision to invest? When, almost by design, you're gonna be so much better a product that everybody you meet with,

Do you accept like, Oh, this person doesn't have the craftsmanship I have, but that's okay. They're going to get there. And how do you determine craftsmanship when you're using that product? What are the signals for you? I mean, really the most A really cool question. Yeah. Um I mean, path was the most beautiful product ever. That's a cool question. Yeah. Do you ever think about that?

Yeah, Well, no. I mean, what's coming up is you're asking the question. Is there sort of two? There's probably more than two. But here's kind of two ways. I guess that I think about it. I'm always looking for quality in terms of the product quality, and this could be manifesting a bunch of different ways, like you can look at something and just see the difference. Like, for example, Hip Camp, which is one of my favorite investments, just launched their mobile app on Wednesday. You don't know that app and you look at the interface and it's like it just screams quality like it's just

this is like therapy for campsites. Yeah, it's so beautiful. I literally clicked

on. It's unbelievable, gorgeous. They're just amazing at product, right? And gorgeous. The design, The aesthetic looks good. The function. I mean, there's sort of aesthetic, right? That's like what it looks like. And, you know, Steve always used to say, You can't put lipstick on a pig,

right? A lot of people try to do this. Yeah, I can almost I can almost always instantly tell if you it looks good. And then as soon as you start interacting with it, two things one are the user and like the U ex like the pathways through the op for the way that futures are organized. Is it like, confusing at all? Or are the pathways sort of weird or their animations it slow? Um, so there's the U Ex question, and then the other one is the software, like one of the things that I always try toe look out is the feeling that the software has, like, Did they choose to use some kind of, You know,

there's all these frameworks you can use to, like, try toe, not have to do the hard work to write a right objective C code, right? Like And so people do these things where they use these, like whatever. I don't know that time frame works, right. You can almost always tell right this the animations air slow the you know, the fonts are like off slightly like you can really start to tell pretty quickly. And so I'm always looking for like, speed and, like, does the software feel solid? You know,

it's kind of a difference, like when you go to a hotel like the walls air like, you know, like a sheet rock versus like wood and you know, you can tell the difference between quality and not quality. And so I'm always looking for that. Yeah, somebody's looking for that craftsmanship because it implies that the team cares, Right? Um, so those air So those air, that's one side of your question, like how do you assess it? And do you do it? So there's okay, like they've got good quality,

like then it's like, Well, maybe I can add some value just through kind of jamming with the founder, and I kind of it's fun, right? Cause you're sort of collaborating and it's ah, it's more of a pure, um, product relationship, which that could be super fun. It's kind of like a Yeah, it's just like collaborating on music or something like that could be super fun. But it's, you know, you also have to get along with the

person, and you can only do so much as an investor, right? Like it's not your company, like the most impact you can have is what, 10%? 20%? 5%? It depends,

you know, um, in this genre, I think that's why it's fun, because it's like you can jam an idea and every once in a while, they get in there, and that's super cool. Um, but it's not a huge amount of overhead, Like the murdering of product is not on you. Right? The other category, I would say that's much harder for me is when you make the choice to help somebody who doesn't have the products. Um, you know, it's like that's actually the missing piece for the company s. And you know that they know that they're actually coming to you to help with that.

Right? And that can feel really good for your You go. Um, but hard to self is hard to solve. Um, I've, like, made every mistake in the book on this one. Um, you know, over promising, like my ability toe influence, the product and my you know, But then today you're right. Like even if you're on the board like you're only there every once in a while, you're out there every day.

Um oh, yes. You can do a product meeting with the product team. You know, the reality is, if you're not in the office like a lot, it's very hard to impact product on occasion. You know, I have some collaborations with founders. Where and not very many. You know, I've gotten better at this overtime, like in terms of setting expectations. But you know, like, right now I probably have three or so maybe five, but really three that are texting me or calling me You're video chatting me every single day, and I'm like, I'm I'm actually doing product on the product with them and they don't have the skills that or they're learning. And for that I would say that the thing I'm looking for are learning

machines. Yeah, how quickly can they assimilate this knowledge? How quickly can they become Jenna? Exactly.

And that's actually, maybe you should go back in the previous bucket, which is I'm always looking for learning machines, people that are voracious readers or they just love learning. And so you can actually be in a learning relationship with them. You can actually teach them to be a great product person like that, to me is super fun, but it's pretty rare like to actually have it work,

because if you were to go back to the jet, I metaphor like you can't fight the lightsaber battle with him. No, they're gonna fight Darth Vader or Dorf Mall where it is. You can't hold the lightsaber with them. They've gotta fight it. You can teach them how to use a lightsaber. You could teach him how to use the force. But at the end of the day, when they're in their battle, they have to put their skills. So you're optimizing for how quickly can they learn the skills and the wisdom? Not? Can you jump in the battle and fight with him because every time to jet ice fight another one? It never works like a quick on Jim. And you know, total Dooku.

It's like everybody winds up losing a limb. Hiring is always hard, and it's getting really hard today because we've got unemployment at historic lows. Also, many people just throw a job posting out there. They put it on their job board or some random message board, or dumping your slack room. That's not gonna work. It's not gonna work. But what is going to work is to go ahead and use Lincoln. Lincoln is where 610 million members visit. And they do that to make connections, learn and grow as professionals and Sometimes they're looking to discover new job opportunities, or sometimes they're passive job seekers. And that is the secret. Not everybody's going to a job board every day looking for jobs.

But Lincoln will present opportunities to those hundreds of millions of Lincoln users, and here's how easy it is. You just simply go to Lincoln, and it's really easy because you say where you're looking for the person you put in your job, you can then look for what experiences you want them to have. How many years of marketing you set a budget boom. It's up and running, and you will find somebody quickly. How do I know this? Because we found two of our 15 team members on Lincoln very recently. Sir Charles, our new director and our marketing manager, Marine. You can create these job listings quickly and easily end to get $50 off right now. A 50 Okay, 50 for your first job posting.

Goto Lincoln dot com slash angel A. N g e l. You know has fallen Angel. That's Lincoln dot com slash angel, and you will get $50 off your first job posting terms and conditions apply. Of course, Now let's get back to this amazing

mark. And recent at one point, I think a few years ago said something like this. Like I try to invest in people who don't need me, right? Like it's like it's like That's my criteria. Sure. And I think there's some validity to that, right? Like you have toe. You have to, um, or either teach them to the point where they don't need you write or make it

just right. It was like you're saying, I think I made this mistake a swell. I would look at them and think I could do this. Yeah, I can help them do this. Yeah, I know exactly what they need to dio, and that's not the best thesis like that. I know what needs to be done here. And I could do it. Is not that

this is your Your analogy is perfect, right? They're not gonna fight the battle. You're not gonna be holding lifesaver. I think like there's the whole teach teach teach someone to fish, don't you know? And like, there's a lot of that going on in venture and investing right now. It's like we're gonna have all these resource is, and we're gonna hold the lightsaber for you. You know, I've always really taken almost Zen path on this, which is, like, I really just want to be a good teacher. And, um,

if they wanna learn product that I'll try. I've made tons of mistakes, but all the founders I made the mistake. I'm sorry. Like, um, you know, it's it's taken me a long time to learn, Like what I can engage with and really help and whatnot, and I don't think I'm done, But, um, when it works, it's really fun.

And you get to everybody suggest, you know, most people are stormtroopers. Most people are not jet. I let everybody is a samurai, not everybody. Jet I like. We're not optimizing here to make everybody the founder of a company. It is an extreme pursuit, just like not everybody is gonna be in the Olympics. Talk about businessman. You brought that up? What have you learned about business models? Path Didn't have the business model. Initially you were going for scale. You were getting their old, um,

unfortunately because if it existed today, all my lord, don't get me started. Oh, my Lord. Why didn't we all that I reached out to the authority. I never told us, but I reached out to the company that bought it, and I made them a low ball offer, and I was gonna bring it to you and give it Give it back

to you. That's nice of you

to give you 2 50 Will you take it? And they were like, uh, how about No. And they're like, No. And I got so juicy if I bought it for 2 50 then just was, like here. Dave, That's the president. That's cool.

I will say I was tryingto around that time to, you know, I was trying to get it back, and there was no now. Didn't seem like any price was gonna do

it. Uh, yeah, that's a bummer. You never know. It was there listening. Maybe they wantto own 10% of the reboot business model. Yep. What have you learned as a product person? An artist. Midget. I master, what have you now added to your skill set? And what have you learned about business model architecture, you know, and when to turn it on and started.

This is a really art um that I did not have, I think the appreciation for particularly as we scaled up slow ventures. You know, as the numbers get bigger in terms of your invest that size, you're investing, the diligence you're doing, you really do have to start thinking about business models. And how long is this one gonna last or is it a bank shot? Right, you know, and there's all these questions and the other thing going on is that the Internet just is changing so much all of the time. You know, one of the I mean, sure, you know, you've seen this in your portfolio to one of the sadder things that I've seen happen in the last few years was we've had so many changes to the algorithms that run various parts of the Internet. Whether it's Google search rankings or face X feed rankings,

you to all of it, you know, and winter. And you can have a thing happen where

you've a whole category of APS that, um, wake up in one day 40% of their F 40% of their traffics gone poof. And if their business model was advertising? Yeah, um, suddenly, you know these advertising businesses have. You know, they take the selling ad, They take the insertion order than they run the ad. Six months later, they need a accounts receivable. You know, some debt toe like finance that time, period, if suddenly your traffics 40% gone,

boom. Like all of a sudden, like, you're not only are you not able to service the odds, but you're buried under debt. It's just like this unbelievably hard thing. And then, Oh, by the way, like you didn't realize this and, you know, you didn't realize how hard this is gonna be. And so that's the reality of that business model, right? Similarly, you've got this other thing where,

you know, direct to consumer businesses are, like, really popular right now, And that's super great, right? Like I invested in Casper and all birds, and you know, a lot of these the first wave of the DTC stuff, and you know, these things could be really good. You figure out your cockle TV, and then you scale it up, but that only gets to like, a certain scale. And then suddenly it's not working no more left.

Yeah, and like, what do you d'oh! Right! And for fun for like, three years And, you know, And then the whole ecosystem starts investing in this business model and everyone's oh, yeah, D D c. And it's so great. And there's funds that air about this now and then suddenly that market changes and like the you know and so I think that there's, um these are hard, you know, like, um and there's kind of brass tacks business models that air much more easy to understand its description. Yeah, it's like subscriptions and your

What's the best business model surprise you've had. Like, I could tell you my way. You think about yours, But it was calm, you know, when they came to us, they were selling the APP for 10 bucks. I think one time the one time and the cognitive dissonance around making a purchase and the cognitive overhead of I'm gonna give $10 get something. And then they went to $10 a month subscription and all that friction went away, and it just started growing like a weed. Because if you think about a consumer, it's like, Well, if I prescribed for 10 bucks, I can cancel it any time, so I don't like it. After 23 months, I'm out totally and buying it one time for 10

that I wish Apple made that case easier by the way.

They hide it a little bit of the interface. They're getting better about there. I found it easier this time when I went into my

Matt Fisher, the guy who runs the APP store apples world class. I mean, he's really trying to do a good

job with this. You just have to. Every month when you get your email of subscriptions, there should be a specific Lincoln it that says, Pause your situation. Refund partial refund for the year, Cancel told, and it should be underneath it. Instead. You have to click log in and it never works and you can't like I don't know. They're just starting to explain like you're renewing on this date, and then you can cancel renewal. But what about partial? Totally. It should just say you're 80% through your subscription. Click here to get a refund of this amount totally. And then it would just relieve everybody from this pain,

and I have a rule now. I called Jason's rule came up with a creative name for it. Which is you can tell the quality of a product based on how hard it is to unsubscribe or return it. Totally. If it's great quality. Totally. They're like, Yep. Fund. You got a refund? Apple hold the apple. They're just like you don't like it. Give it to us. School. Give you no problem. Yeah,

cool. Don't worry about it. We're doing well where you had a great restaurant. They're like, I don't like this hamburger. Like, let's try another

one. All those products or NPS 80 plus. Exactly.

And so? And then you go to something like, Come on, Wall Street Journal or Comcast. And they're like, So tell me why you're describing us. I don't want to tell you why I'm unsubscribed from equinoxes or this or that. Like, just get me out of here. And like, No, no, we're trying to throw up roadblocks totally to see if you give up on subscribing. Totally, really total. That's your business model. Is you putting all your creativity?

All of your cycles go into How arduous can you make unsubscribe ing as opposed to? How delightful can you make the product. Totally. It's bonkers, totally. And the world isn't going for it anymore. It's too much competition to take that approach. Total protection, resends Ben Thompson from the stretcher. Email sends your invoice every month with an unsubscribe. Totally. It's baller. So you didn't have to say that. It's a world class. He's like, Listen,

I am so confident when I get that email I'm like, you know, I appreciate that. I'm going to stay, subscribe for another month. I'm getting I read one out of every five of your e mails and they're brilliant. Good enough for me, Totally worth my 10 bucks. Every totally

Yeah, yeah, I think

you have a business model. One that just blew the doors off it. And you went Wow, that's so cool. Well,

you know, hip camp

I've mentioned before. What is their monitors? They're being be a percentage of the transaction. Do they own and operate Well,

so this is what I think is interesting. When I first sat down with Melissa and she's just the most wonderful human, um, she was really focused on either owner operating or like being a front end for all of the um ah National Forest Service. You know, campsites were all used. Thio And we had this meeting at a diner in Marin County. She grew up there. I live out there and

get the girl cheese. I think the grilled cheese you had that vendor

and, um, we were talking about it. And

I kept

talking about this notion that I would love it if there was a distributed national park, like a decentralized national park that, like, I could just camp on land anywhere in the world. And, um, ironically, I was on the board of event right at the time. And there's this company active dot com that, like, had the contract with the government, which is illegal, by the way. It's like not you're not supposed to be able to have an exclusive contract to, like, book the front end for these things. And and anyway,

at any rate, they were making it impossible for hip camp to actually be involved in that part of the transaction at all. And this went on for, like, a year, and finally a list of calls me and she said, I'm gonna do it. We're gonna switch to private land. Wow. And who knows if it's gonna work. Um, and literally, I think it was within three months of making the switch just, like took off. Exponential and this really interest think things started happening, which is the landowners were telling each other about it because they all only have,

like, two options for what to do with their land. Either put a subdivision on it or drill for oil neither in which anyone who owns large blocks of land wants to d'oh. And so suddenly they had this way, too, like monetize their land, which wasn't there before. And so it started spreading like local newspapers. And, um, these, like conferences where people go to talk about land monetization. And, um and then now, as time's gone on, I mean, it's just been like the landowner side of the market's been the thing that's just, like, really taking off because

they put the sites on the land or to have the landowner operate them.

Landowner operates. And it's, er, it's like the Airbnb or eventbrite model. You know, like, um, that's what's so cool is that, um, landowners are actually making really good money. They're actually growing their businesses. If you look at all their cohorts

and things. It's great yard up for whatever 5 10 grand and then rent it out for 100 a night.

200 tonight. And they're reinvesting now in the land of doing cool stuff like outdoor kitchens and outdoor showers. And so the lands like pristine. It's not this, like, badly like used campsite that, like a 1,000,000 people been, too. It's like brand new land. And now the landowners excited. And one of this other cool things that's happening there is that, um, city people in country people

are meeting each

other each other. Ah, it's so special. Talkto Elissa. She'll tell you like enormous numbers of stories of these two sides of the market.

Emmy Award winning producer Jacky, get me Ah, Elissa from hip camp on the podcast. Start anyway, that's a good one. All right, um, let me ask for I'm gonna ask a final question. What? Verticals in 2019 and going forward into 2020. Do you find the most fascinating and that have the most opportunity to build multi $1,000,000,000 businesses? Which categories do you think are gonna be the next ones to fall? We start transportation and housing with Airbnb, an uber and left food delivery with this last cohort. What, you think the next couple of categories that have been resistant to change that might change our I have a couple, but I'll wait for yours first. Um,

I mean, I do think that there are going to be too Internets. Um really? I think there are already two Internets. We just don't think of it that way. If you actually look at the bits flowing through the Internet, it's like something like half of them are Netflix. Yeah, and so I think there already is a subscription Internet and a free Internet. We just don't think of it that way because the subscription ones dominated by this one huge player in video and et cetera. I mean, if you were to index all of the words we've used on this podcast today, I think the word subscription shows up quite a bit. Yes. Oh, I think there's clearly a, um,

sort of massive amount of that coming down the pipe, whether it's simple stuff like subscription podcasts and sub stack, these letters and the very basic, most basic stuff. But I mean, you also see this happening with, like the app store, like there's tons more. I mean, games is like all this, right? And ah, and so I don't know. I just think there's gonna be a lot more stuff where people make the choice. Either they download it for free, and then they make this choice toe be a customer of the product,

even in the social category, even in these categories where we just, you know, media, et cetera, where we didn't think it was possible before. I think there's been a shift in behavior and there's almost like a hangover going on, Um S. So anyway, I think there's a lot more opportunity there than I think people are great. 100% looking at That's kind of Ah, I guess horizontal answer to the question.

Um, it's a business model that consumers are embracing. Technology is enabling, and there's something that people didn't realize that's also enabling it, which is millennials never spent 150 bucks a month on cable, which freed up $1800 a year in all la carte spending. So instead of spending 150 getting ESPN and History Channel, whether I want it or not. I'm now chopping it up, going. You know what? I'll take com dot com and I'll take my favorite video game, and I'll also take, you know, my yoga online classes and my class pass or whatever. So people are just like rolling their own cable subscription in the APP store or directly.

This kind of matches with another thing, which is somewhat unrelated to your question. But I've been thinking about a lot, which is that you know

where we're at

as a society right now is that we, um we've shifted from, like, a small number of deep relationships Thio a much larger number of loose relationships, right? Like, and that's what's going on in kind of social land. I think this is going on interests. I think of it is the interest graph for the media, just like things I'm interested in. I think people are shifting from it. Used to be you had, like, three interests that were really you're too Yeah, and it was actually hard to get the media, you know, I think of growing up in Montana and I was a ski racer.

There was no video of that there was a tube. So if you had, like a lot of VHS tapes that you kind of got from all the catalogs, you were invested in these interests, right? I think now you've got a portfolio of interests. It's like you've got a portfolio of people in a portfolio of interest in your life. And so if you were building a media company in the past, you used to be like This is our person. His name's Jason

and he likes these five skis and he likes golf

and walk around the office, and that's who we're talking to. That's not the game anymore. People have a portfolio of

on all fronts so interesting. You say this because I'm seeing this over and over again. I think we have a bounty of availability of ways to go deep. In the past year, I took up tennis electric guitar on I started playing backgammon and I just started watching videos online on YouTube, will turn back and learned that attended play tennis on Learn How to Play, and I got use ish in tow. Guitar musicians Awesome. It's awesome and I was like 100 bucks. Alright, get a guitar teacher for 150 an hour. So I'll just $100 musicians to start playing. And then tennis. I was like, How do you hit the ball? Yeah, and then it was right and I was like tennis ball machines and I bought,

like, $1000 tennis ball machine and I'm not. And you know what? Next year to be three different things. Totally so the It's very It's very interesting insight, which is the hurdle to become passionate is low. It used to be the hurdle to become passionate was I ordered all those videos where I made VHS copies. If you're going to run into somebody or somebody put trading Zine totally go into the library.

And it was expensive for those people to make the videos, you know? So it's just like I think this is a huge thing. It's changing

democratization of passion.

Yeah, on relationships, right, Like it's like you're seeing this play out with relationships and business in life. I mean, the way we work, the way we marry,

like all these days, think about these young kids are hooking up, then deciding if they want to have a relationship now I'm not seeing any moral judgment about that. But the velocity of which they can try on relationships or, you know, people is higher than us. They just go into tender and sweet stripes upside whatever sitting there and meet

three people. Everybody's in multiplayer mode

at all times. And then you think about music festivals. We used to go toe one show, and we would listen to the you know, you two, we get three albums and then or Bruce and the E Street band, and then we'll go to shows. Or the dad or fish You were deep in it. Now people are like, I'm going Coachella. I'm gonna go see

this. You know, hard country last

weekend. And how many musicians did you say was? Four hours? 10. 10? Yeah. And you were probably passionate about two, casually interested in three. Exactly. Then you expose yourself to five.

Yeah, the way I kind of think about Is that, like, the real world is now, like news feed.

Oh, my Lord. And you created the new ST. Oh, wow. That's interesting

about it. I mean, it's

true. Like it'll surfaces. The meat music is this is the equivalent

of the news. Read it. Just all service. I mean, all of it. Like whether it's in any of these interests.

Right movies Think about like the comic books. Just like Here's 25 Marvel Phillips. Here's 30. Yeah, here's 30 Star Wars films. Amanda Laurie in Syria. Is this that The other thing? So

that's one thing, I guess, the second thing, which is more.

That's two things up. The democratization

of your Patrick's interests. I don't really think of that

as a category where no, it's a category that now that I'm thinking about it like you can start to unravel like musician is interest or people are now taking up the programming. I was talkinto my class like Master Flash. My wife's got

a subscription to that. I was like, so into watching how timberland makes music like It's unbelievable. You don't make me No, I mean, I Would you move it like not like that, You know, it's just like, wow, like, that's pretty cool,

right? So the democratization of interest, passions and then you have subscriptions as a horizontal wear. What else? The only

other one that I was going to say is I really believe that this meditation APS being the number one app or the biggest category last year is just the beginning

of mindfulness. Well, I think of

it is like self care tech or something. Yeah. Yeah, It's like I don't know what we're gonna call it, but it's like there's these tools that help you expand your potential or understand your potential or heal yourself Or, you know, all these meditation after 101 You know, this stuff goes to 701 right? Thes wisdom streams are 10,000 years old, right? And there are amazing things that you can do with your body with your mind. And, you know, we've talked a lot about athletes on this. Like, all you have to do is look to sport, to know that,

like, there are amazing things you can do if you set your mind to it, right? And so I put it under self actualization tech. Yeah, I think there's a real thing here. Yeah, and I think that our phones and this is actually my optimistic case, I guess for

glad back to the

anxiety out of the big brass depression. Yeah, the optimistic case is that the mobile phone. We've always talked about it as a remote control for your life. These buttons, like Do something magic in the world for you, right? Like bring you a car, food or music, your friends or music or whatever TV

show and all of

the use cases that kind of are the remote control in our home screen right now

are kind

of the easy ones, right? Like it's like the ones that were obvious, like lapses got him done. They're all like the great like

awesome. But

the personal computers vision was always this notion of a bicycle for your mind, right? This tool that makes you a superhuman. And so I really think that the next phase of everything going on on the phone, or who knows if there's gonna be another platform. I don't see it right now, like whether or whatever it is like whatever the next computer is like, I think that we're gonna actually start to be getting some tools that make you healthier, make you have, you know, be able to learn things like Musician is like this crazy superpower, like I played guitar in high school. I was in a band. I was reasonably good at it. I get use Ishan in three months in I'm like playing guitar. Like I would say, at least two acts better than I was in high school. Right? And that's pretty

amazing for 100

bucks. Yeah, like that's amazing. And so Okay, imagine even better meditation APS even better Health APS. You know, I have this ring. Oh,

the aura. Laura. Yeah, They lost in our conference, and I never infested. I'm an idiot.

This this was the only personal investment I made last year. Aura. And the reason why is that? It's the only wearable that I've ever tried. That's changed my behavior. Really? Yeah, because I go to bed now, and I mean, not always, but it's made me actually think about when I'm going

to bet it vibrates when you're supposed to be bad. You know, it just kind

of sends you push notification like, hey, be good if you went to bed like 10. 30 to 11. 30 tonight. Perfect. But more importantly, because it tracks H r v, heart rate variability overnight, which is the, um, it's basically the best metric toe. Know whether your Paris empathetic and sympathetic nervous system have received enough rest to recover. So when you wake up in the morning and you're making the decision, am I gonna go work out hard this morning or I'm gonna take a rest. It tells you, basically,

you should rest today. And what it's taught me is that I used to wake up sometimes feeling like, uh, like, not a guy to work out. And some days it's like, No, you should work out on other days It says, No, no, no, you should take a rest. And so I've learned there's a subtle difference between those two that actually, on some of those days, working out makes you feel better. And so this ring has,

like, given me that, um, you know, just it's a little bit of extra data, but it's actually changing the way I make decisions every day. And this is like right now, you know, the Apple watch is like one of the most sophisticated pieces of technology that's ever sat on a body. Yeah, and it's like only three years, and I can't even imagine what this is gonna look like in five

way. Have those continuous glucose monitor

now, I was gonna say the only other wearable that's really impacted me as a C g m. But you can't get it without a doctor.

Did you get it?

Yeah. I got my doctor to give me one for three months Dramatically changed my back to my whole point on sugar. Yeah, you really change your search Sugar consumption. After you've had one of these. Could you see your glucose spike? Yeah. You see, it's spiking. You're basically realized that, like I realized that my sugar runs low all the time. My wife used to give me a hard time cause I drink a San Pellegrino at night or whatever. Turns out I actually need it. But you need to manage it differently.

You don't Wantto What? Like the lemon? Nada Or they

are in Java. Orange Aga Oh, so good, So delicious, So delicious. But it's better if you sugar in with fruit or something so you can manage it into the right zone all day. Thin like spiking it. Crashing, Spiking.

Yaron! Giada, Spike! It was too much sugar. So eating an orange OK

are in John and non raspberries. Whatever. You know,

eat that with some sparkling water.

You're okay. Exactly. And more smoothed out through the day. And then your energy levels are really good.

See, like three or four of these raspberries every hour is better than pounding

a juice. But here we are. Talking about this like that would be a great tool to give everyone in the country icon. And someday that's gonna happen. You know, I've heard we had a startups working on this.

When they have continuous glucose, I think obesity will turn. I think that's the turning. Point is people just don't understand totally the impact of sugar on their system. Rightly so, you know, And how would you?

There is this thing. And I really think that this is maybe what I'm trying to get out with this category here Is that thes air subtle things, right? Like, should I work out today or not? Did I recover enough? Am I eating sugar in the wrong way? It's not Get sugar out of your life. It's managed the way you

different. How much right? The intensity

of it Exactly. And these are things which technology I think can really super help with. And I would love to see your remote control buttons on my phone for a lot of

these different things. Higher order APS exactly. Much because I have the fasting rules. Yeah. Have Kevin rose zero, and I've been using

zero, and okay, you know, I'm an investor

in oak. That's great I'm doing. I mean, if I'm not investment, either I would be in zero. I wouldn't invest because investor and calm, that would be bad form. But I've been using the zero meditation does

Euro factor app. I lost £15. Issue and fasting. This amazing thing, actually, that's another one of these tools which I should have said earlier. For some people, it really works. Um, and it could be this amazing practice. Like, I sort of think of health and mental health as this stack. I call it the playlist of practices. Like, what are the practices you have in your life that are making you maximally healthy and sort of reach your potential? And it's different for everyone. One of the great I think forces in the world is that there's something that works,

you know, for everyone. You see, all this guru stuff happened where somebody figures out some sort of things that works for them, and then they make it a program. And then do this diet, Or do I watch my podcast? We're all unique combinations of DNA, you know? And so we're all different. Works for me is not gonna work for you. I can tell you my stories, but you have to find your playlist. Thanks. You know. And so the fact that I

really wanted for May I should wait forever. And I realized my problem was in the moment I had to order food. I enjoy food so much, and I grew up going back to our childhood, so fearful of not having food, that when I had the bounty in my life to order whatever I wanted, I did. And I would never send food back on a plate because that would seem to me to be criminal. To do that, I would just make a bad decision every time. Totally. Then what? I have no problem skipping five meals a week total. If you skip five of 25 meals a week, you have 20% less calories. Totally. And I lost £15 in six under six months

and by the way. This is how your body is designed, like literally, just kind of meander around. And sometimes we get the food and sometimes sometimes not. And so your body is actually designed to function this way. This, like modern way that we eat all the time is

actually not on stop raising way were feast or famine totally were feast would gorge and then fast, totally. We kill some animal or find a fruit tree and we just eat until we pay

and we'd move, you know, And like, you know, my version of this was I Yoga for me is, like, fundamentally changed my life. Like, you know, I do it every day and it's it then went and changed all kinds of other things to my body. Only wants to eat certain things. And, you know, it's just like this amazing thing. And so you have to find your you know, your things that work your playlist.

Now I do the recap working backwards. Ah, the democratization of interests and passions, Self care slash self actualization technology. Amazing subscriptions obvious and amazing. Hip camp and sub sack. Did you invest in some stock? You know I'm gonna call these guys. We think even I did make a little quick investment here because whoever the sub stacked people are think they needed somebody, and they pitched me, but an aura. I made a mistake on that. I'm gonna try to fix it. Still investing. I know this is like, I do this podcast, and I literally the podcast is my therapy.

I've got another another thing like aura that I'm working on right now that I will tell you. Don't tell anybody. All right? Do it off air. All right,

Cool. Um, and in the same genre, if you're soft related to sleep, sleep is so important. Ah, if you're suffering, get help. And ah, sunrise dot bio bio. If you want to donate to people donate just All right, So I make a little donation for

this. Give it to the best science in the world.

Really? Yeah. Uh, hey, Charles, make a note. Esque. Um, ask Ashley to donate $1000 to sunrise dot What? Bio men is Megan email right now. Sorry about Thank you. Now you know what? You came on the podcast. I appreciate you taking literally 100 minutes to share your collective knowledge and give my best to Britt Will. And congratulations on all your success. You can follow Dave Morin on Twitter, but I don't know if he uses it all that often.

Um and Ah, yeah, What a career. Thanks for sharing everything. Now we have to do make this a two part episode because once again, you and I always talk for too long and it's a double episode. We'll see you all next time on by.