in 2015. Scott Jurich was the most talked about person on the Appalachian Trail, probably even the hiking community at large. As soon as the legendary Ultra owner announced that he was taking his talents to Appalachia, a flurry of fanfare and press followed suit. Those record has been broken a pair of time since the swell of attention has yet to be matched today. Job A and I sit down with Scott Juric and his wife and had crew member Jenny Jurich toe learn all about his f k t. What the undertaking was like from each of their perspectives, how it's prepared them for parenthood, their new book, North Finding My Way while Running Appalachian Trail and much more. We also get an introduction to our newest director of the week. So G, who's attempting to become the first amputee to through Hike the Pacific Crest Trail. Lastly, if you're the sort of person that likes free stuff, pay attention.

We're giving away two copies of North signed by both Scott and Jennings to enter head to the Instagram post on our account at Backpacker Radio that introduces this podcast and leave a comment letting us know why you want to read the book. But first, if you've listened back back a radio, you know that both Trance and I are big fans of gospel gear, manufacturers of lightweight backpacking gear and accessories. Their packs carry comfortably. The roomie shelters protect in harsh weather conditions, and the tracking polls for are some of the latest on the planet gas. Mahir is changing the perception of delicate ultralight here tonight are both users of gossip years, packs and shelters. I used the gorilla there 48 pack on the P C t a couple years ago, and we'll be using their updated model on some shorter hikes this year. Also use a handful of their accessories, including the smartphone shoulder strap pocket and their faint pack chances out romping around on the 80 right now and rocking gossip. Here's the one shelter, which is both roomy and light,

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let's do this Backpacker radio presented by the Trek I end your cohosts Zach Badger Davis, and sitting across from me is a much hairier version of Juliana John C. I am job Glionna. Yeah, on. I'm happy to be here. I'm actually turn your mic up right now and you turn me up s o give us a quick rundown in your situation right now. My situation, Like, as of right now, yeah. This exact moment, what I'm dealing with. Tell me about your brain

chemistry. My brain

chemistry is filled with caffeine and Pilsners, and I am on roughly two and 1/2 hours asleep. I took at 11 a half out excuse me 11 and 1/2 hour flight from Amman, Jordan, after I finished the Jordan Trail and I had a layover in Chicago because my flight was canceled to Denver last night and I had to connect this morning from Chicago Thio Houston and now here in Denver. But My jet lag is so whacked out that I went to bed last night and a 45 and woke up at 11:15 p.m. And I've been up ever since. It's like it's like 3 a.m. in your four AM and Jordan right now it's 1/4 to 5 local time, so Godspeed. So I've been I've been medicating with caffeine and beer right now is coherent. Is this gonna be today?

Uh, I'm good. I'm good. I'm actually good. I feel like I'm good,

but I may be ill Slur my words because of I'm maybe not as good as I think we'll be the judge of how coherent this is. But obviously we want to hear a lot about the Jordan Trail. We're gonna do a podcast tomorrow. I probably won't be hearing it a day after this one is released, but we're gonna go way down the job. A rabbit hole later. Later. Different podcast. Today he's serving as like I said, my Julianne Chauncey and the fact that he will be my co host for our wonderful interviewees who are sitting on either side of me. And that is Scott Juric and Jenny Jurich. Thank you so much for being here. Guys really appreciate

it. No. Thanks for having us.

We're excited to be here. It's been a few years and has a joke. Yeah, I'm sure Most people listening to this I have a pretty good understanding of who you are. But if you wouldn't, just if you wouldn't mind letting us know a little bit more about your endurance background. Well, it all started when I decided on my first marathon. And a month later I ran my 1st 50 miler back in northern Minnesota, where I grew up outside of Duluth. It's called a Minnesota Voyager 50 miler, and from there I always thought that alternating would just be this thing. I do it maybe a little bit. In fact, after the first race, I thought I'd never do another one again. And then,

you know, things like like a lot of things people say after their first trail, their first hike, There'll never again. I'm not gonna do it. I ended up running a bunch of altruism before you know what? I was on the line of some of the biggest races, such as the Western States, 100 the Badwater 1 35 races, which, like Western States 100 won seven times. Bad water, one twice. Ah went on to run the Sparta Athlon, which is 152 mile race from Athens to Sparta, and one that three times,

and I've won the Hard Rock 100. So I've done a bunch of stuff. And just to clarify Western states is like revered as one of the elite long, you know, endurance races that we have in our country. It's definitely like it. Some people call it, you know, it's the Super Bowl of ultra marathoning. In a way, I mean, there are a lot of distances. You can run 50 k, you can run 50 miles, you can run distances in. Between that,

there's 200 mile races. Now it's really opened up. And then they're things like 24 hour races, which I decided to do what you were gonna run a circle sometimes, like I'm one mile loop for 24 hours.

And how

did you like that, though? Compared to what you're used to doing? It's next level I called the PhD of ultra marathoning because you it's really it's a bit of a challenge of mortar, but it's a physical challenge, but it's definitely of the mind and and then some, like you, go to places where you never think you do, you lose your mind because it sounds like you're a hamster at that. You do. And you actually, I try to tell people like I I try to lose my mind in the sense of I try not to think too much. I mean, use thinking for the basic thing strategy. And I mean, I'm sure a lot of through hikers and hikers can relate to this as well that there times, when you just got you've just got up,

do the basics in terms of mental machinery. And then after that, it's just to kind of find somewhere else to go, whether it's music, it's when I was on the 80 people. It was so funny. Like I'd see all these people watching movies in the middle of the night, you know, 8 39 o'clock and they'd be all cozy in their sleeping bags, and they're like, we're out here for six months way Need to watch and expensive Thrones. All right, I'm gonna spoil it. for us. I was I was shocked at that. But it's interesting.

I think so, Yeah. Your mind goes. All kinds of place of my events are of the type of 24 hours. Warriors you're on a trail for, you know, three months, four months, five months. Six months. Yet you need to go other places. So mindless activity. So the idea is that mindless activity doesn't go too far awry. And you start toe go places like, Why am I doing this? Yeah,

Even though you go there occasionally, you mentioned in the early part of the response that after you ran your 1st 50 mile race that you thought that would be your last. That's obvious to me, but I'm curious to get your take as to why you felt that way. Well, I had finished second place, and you said I could place in the 1st 50 miler. It was a small race in Minnesota. But unless there's two people, that's still really impressive. It was impressive. And so you're one might think Well Oh, geez, I'm pretty good at this, but it was so grueling, so tough.

I hadn't gone further than maybe three hours of running prior that I'd run a marathon a month earlier, but that was the furthest distance. So what was the recovery like? Wood of the body? Not

for unless you've been training at that point for that train.

But the furthest I had run was around three hours. So I was really recovery. But I was also 20 years old, you know, they was there, and so recovering wasn't too bad, but that I think for me, I just thought, you know, this was so difficult, so hard and my body hurt in so many places after. Not like permanently. But sure, it's just the initial reaction, like never again like that. That was just too hard. Even though it was totally awesome.

That was hard. Yeah. Had so many things but a gift. It's one of those things where I think went through him. And then I realized, well, maybe I should try to scare me, and I'm actually maybe I'm pretty good at going ready ultra long because I'm not a fast short distance runner. Percent. Okay, So it was the fact that you finished second part of what fed the fuel for your desire to keep doing this or did you? Do you think he would have done it? Had even finished

in last place? I think it

was part of it, because as a young 20 year old, there's not a lot of motivation. There was no money in it. There was no like, I'm gonna develop this career and you were single to right. Exactly. That helps. But it's more, I think, this idea of having that competitive spirit and if when again. There's not a lot of reward out there. Something like that seemed interesting to do, but it wasn't, uh, I don't think on its own, I might have done some more just because it was pretty cool.

But at the same time, I was. So the incentive for you back then, compared to what, like altar runners today, are coming up in in the, you know, the race culture. It was different for you back then, right? It was like it was like, all more like individual pride and like how far you want a toe or see how far you can push yourself. And now it's like there's prize money out there, a lot of it. In some cases,

yeah, and there's

some But let's face it, you're not gonna be coming. I got but the and this is where people do argue how it's run in the sport. But I think it's still Pierre. I'm sure you know, we see that in thru hiking and hiking were like, Oh, this is running the sport of this Is corporations coming at Katie This Andi like sponsored that exactly. But the reality is that sports the same at the core, and that's what I love about it. That's what I love about. I mean, I love the people, and I think that's the same with the thru hiking culture. The people and the community is really what makes the sport. I mean, yes,

the beautiful locations, going out and running long distances or hiking long distances. You still have to have that. Yeah, but when it comes down to it, there's still this social interaction. That's why people come in, do racist. Otherwise, you could always run my best friends you've ever met, right? And the people that you like, yeah, put the gloves on and fight like crazy, and then after you have a beer and hang out and that's That's what I love about it. Yeah?

At what point did ultra running become a feasible career for you? Depends on what you call feasible, Feasible Report the booth. That's where a lot of people assume that. You know, if you have a following or if you, you know, I've been fortunate to. I'd say it definitely helped when I started winning a lot of races consistently and I was still scrapping together money. I mean, I was in debt from ultra running more than I was making money and probably being like, I don't know, 10 years into the sport, um, or more. And I would just get a small check every year to reimburse my expenses.

And so I would like groceries on the weekends. When I go to these races, I could stock the shelves at home kind of thing and and just use that because I got only use it for expenses. So it wasn't like I was getting paychecks for quite a while. It's a like went more than half of my career. I could relate. Yeah. Really? Yeah. What are the prized packages today? What is the top? What if the person that gets in first place in a big race. What is the prize package for that? I mean, it can depend, but I would say it's get on the high end.

Maybe you'd see like a $5000 prize, and that's quite rare. There's some $1000 prize is out there, and then there's like some. So we're talking cobbling up. Alright,

outdated. So maybe the prize money and there's a few big ones. There's,

I mean, I know there's enough. There's some that are 10,000 for instance, those air quite rare and even the biggest races like Western states 100 the Ultra Trail two to Mont Blanc that was actually have zero prize money, and they're just If they've kept it that way, there's again. They want to keep the sport the way it's been. Yeah, somebody has to fall on that grenade, right? Exactly. But then they also say, Well, there's a lot of potential with sponsorship, and people have that ability toe get sponsorship. Don't you then incentivize better athletes to join ultra running by giving a bigger price package? That's the thing.

And that's where I'm been a big believer in the best field and bringing the best athletes out there. And sometimes you just need to have a very prestigious race. Yes, so you don't always have to have money. In fact, that's where Western States 100 the Ultra Trail tomorrow Blanc. They've still captivated the athletes, so to speak, so that they show up for the race because it's so prestigious. And then it could merit getting sponsorship dollars. And that's where you know, endorsements and sponsorship dollars. That's really where you're probably gonna make more your money. Very few athletes, like go around the circuit and like, Okay, I get 5000 here, 10,000 there.

There's a little

bit of that going on, but not much still surprising. It's like Cherry. I like the icing on the cake for getting adding to the, you know, hopefully getting sponsored from those events with that your wedding and then that that prize money is just like helping to cover X y Z while you are on your way to making it with sponsorships. Is that kind of what exactly exactly? So real quick. Just as an aside, you know, you talk about Western states Zach loves when I talk about the state of Pennsylvania. He loves it because I'm from there and I love my home states. The Keystone State. It's the greatest thing is what killed the pleasures. Have you ever run the Eastern States? I have not run. The Eastern state is fairly new.

Event fair. It

is fairly new, but what do you know about what I know about? It's barely. Yeah, it's, uh, you know, people talk about the rocks on eight. Yes, that's what I was getting. That there's a reason why the people don't go out on the 80 in the Rock Sylvania because it's rocky. But then where the Eastern states is held is like hard core. And that's where I think people realize the Alleghenies in the Adirondacks. People think some places like where the 80 runs through his rocky or gnarly. There's some real stuff, and they found a way. I don't How do you find 30,000 vertical feet in 100 miles? Found it. They find

things that those that

ridge in Valley country, which actually that the Eastern States isn't in much at all. But like that, Allegheny Plateau has all these like strain edges of the Spider Ring network of creeks and rivers,

and it's it's

kind of you. You're blown away by my state. Well, Jenny, and I'll handle the country, too. I mean, when I was on the 80 everyone talked about how the rattlesnakes are the biggest. Yeah, in Pennsylvania. And, you know, there was the legends of, like, the other, like the size of coffee. Candy.

People don't copy, can size. It is right. But they don't know. Is that the diameter of a coffee can? All right, Anyways, we're good on the way to win your quota for the day. So I get that and I want to get out and check it out for sure. Just for fun. There's so many races and this point, my career there are like this. A list of races I'd like to go on. Just do for fun. So Well, let me know,

man, I'd love to show you around Pennsylvania. I'll be there. So, Jenny, you're an ultra runner too,

right? Isn't that how you guys met? In casual, casual, casual, casual, you is

casually running for anyone. I went for a casual run today was five miles, so we probably different metrics For what casual

means, um we did meet, I guess, through ultra running, sort of cause. I was working for this footwear company called Mon Trail way back in the day. Member that Yeah, they were great shoes. A lot of hikers

use Montreal's up until they're the out of business.

Well, they got bought by Columbia recently after they kind of went under to or no, he will wake up up by Columbia. And I think Columbia just kind of

let him go toe swallowed. Grab, die.

A slow death coming back. I don't know. It was a great company back in the day, and Scott was one of our athletes. So that's kind of how I met him. And then I started running trails in the Seattle community, and then he was like, part of the community. So

is that violating any kind of policy to,

uh, Friday night with It's actually been three couples that got married from, and they meant at Mom Jam. I

hope Montreal's HR departments not listening. I think it was okay because athletes were full time employees s. Obviously, there's a lot of subjects I won't talk about the last thing about the ultra running I'm just curious how, aside from obviously sponsorships and the fact that people are getting a modest payment from winning races, how else has the community culture race is just the ultra running world at large? How has that changed since he started? Well, it's gotten a lot bigger. The populations for races, the lottery's now that take place used to be able to go literally morning of a race. Show up. Yeah, I'm gonna go drive to that whatever race and show up. I'm gonna fly that race. I'll sign up day up. Or you could decide a couple weeks before and now all the popular races or the ones that are popular amongst look mean,

fill up. Yeah, we're talking, You know, you have to plan your schedule out a year in advance, and then it's more like 57 years if you're trying to get him to say something like Western states. So that's where you know, things like born to run, helped put ultra running, even Maur on the map. In terms of this, people are like, Whoa, there's these these races and I want to go do that so people wanted to go and do the Leadville after reading, Born to run or Western States. 100 or bad water?

Um, all these popular races and it's great for the sport because again, we got all these interesting people in it. But the drawback is, it's hard to get into races. I'd say, like the biggest change has been the numbers. What's cool? Two's the number of women has been exploring. It's always been pretty high and ultra running even compared to like a marathon in. But you can show the race and will be 50 50 sometimes more women than men, which I think is really fun and interesting, and you don't see that in a lot of sports. So we're seeing that where we're seeing, you know, with prize money.

There's maybe a little bit of drug testing and things like that not holding well. There's concern that if they don't start testing, for instance, at some key events, um, even those without prize money that you might have that that that happening in the future so somebody might sneak through kind of exactly. It's tarnishing the purity exactly. So they're just trying to take get ahead of wood steroids, be the advantage Or like, what would someone take just meth like I don't know

e eyes

well, and it is It is a bit, but it is a banned substance, you know, in terms of Olympic competition that I owe you. See, it's definitely like it's something you can't take caffeine. You can only take in certain amounts, but so that, you know, you said you like pina. It's a blood test is well and really is running through. So if you're really a mega dose ing Associates pretty oh, you're getting busted for a lot of blood is impure. Hey, do come in a pop. So there's there's different things,

but it would really be a couple of things you're working on. It could be psychological. Could be tapping into cutting off the pain in the amount of pain going through the body. It could be on that level, the results of the element. I mean, you're not tapping your cardiovascular system on upper levels, for instance, so there's something you know that people would be O. R. Is there blood doping is a repo. There might be some benefits because you could be really well trained, probably more on a muscular pain level because that's what's happening is big and muscular. So there could be blood doping. E p o would be on extreme side, but you never know.

I guess it's a dumb question, considering Lance Armstrong was taking the stuff, and I guess they're probably at least a little bit of overlap between cycling and 100 long distance. And hopefully, like I said, there's been very little of it on that's actually been caught and proven. But, you know, there's talk, so as far as like, what's happening, it's kind of like, uh, what's the like police, your own like kind of thing? We're the culture of the community certainly doesn't lend itself to that kind of thing.

That's like a no no, because all your best friends you're running with right, like you like, more less okay, commonly. But it's interesting. I mean, look it even through an F. K. D is like, you think like who would ever want to like sheet or

like, How's that happened in F? Katie's

definitely has. You gotta research here. Yes, So I listen, I can't read

or they may be worried that after Carl did, I do remember that Uh, and I don't Yeah, there's just

bits and pieces like that where you're just like people, you know? Now it is one

thing I feel like. I don't know if I've heard. I don't know if I personally heard about

cheating with, like, like blood doping. Oh, yeah? Well, people cheat on courses. People cut courses. People do. It's crazy. What? Yeah, I think that's the bigger concern. Okay, I was thinking more like like people making false claims. Okay, But you know that cheating has always existed,

I think in sport. Yeah, it's just a matter you would hope. I mean, all turnings, pretty pure. I mean, in the most, 99.9% of the people are not gonna cheat. But there are some people that do aged groupers. It's You see, people like just to get that pr just to get wow okay. Yeah, sure. It's just not here, is you?

I'm my mother would know. Of course I am. I'm the purest I've seen you in just like 300 milligrams of me. Oh, caffeine Just get like the extra recording the day. Come on, switching gears a little bit. So obviously way. What's about time We had a long conversation about your a t f k t. I'm gonna pretend like nobody's heard that, uh, I think here's that interview not good enough for the interview was awful. You blew it. No, no. I think we have a different audience here than we did at the website.

Was it 34 years ago when I was four years? Yeah. Um, so the first thing we'll touch on is that Jenny reveals that your nickname And in north, your newest book, your nickname is jerker. Ah, fun Fact is, job actually has the exact same nickname. Uh, yeah. Are you serious? Yeah. No way. I don't know that masturbation joke, right? Probably way having a rotary freeze thio by at least have a last name that

they just want to say.

I feel like this is really inappropriate with your daughter over here. She can't understand. Are the high rollers in the lead? Just drink some more, Okay. No, really a t f k t questions.

So you

won't talk about the your nasty injuries that you sustained during that hike? Because when I hear about this to me, that would disqualify you from doing it like I don't not believe you, but the fact that you're able to recover from this is pure insanity to me. So you sustained a thorn quadriceps on early on in your FBI. Remember following this on your instagram when this happened, I was like, I was like, Oh, no. Is he not gonna be able to do

this? It was so early on, I was like freaking out for you, and I don't even know who. At the time, I

truly was there. A lot of people are like, Yeah, I knew that. He'd, you know, run into problems like it was only a weekend like that. So it is going to say exactly. And it was like,

I mean, I was one of those people. My husband. I want you to stop so we can go home and get outta here. No see was actually eyes

like I just sacrificed two months of my too no doubt we're gonna come out here. And so she was a big part of the reason where I decided, Like, I've got to find a way to get this right. I'm not gonna recover and then start over again, which some people have done. You know, Andrew Thompson. One of the best stories I feel like is when he started at main and got turned around do too, just flooding of creaks. And he literally got five days in. And then I was, like, just stopped with you know what car that was because that during, like, the big Hurricane and the North, they had to have been before that.

And he was gone South bound. It was July, but I think it was 2000. Maybe 2011. And I think that was when hurricane either. Like Andrew or not. Andrew, I'm sorry. That was where but, like, what was the one that like? I hope he doesn't live in. I remember,

actually. You know what? There was a hurricane after I finish. Vermont

had some serious major major flooding in 11 or 12. We're getting We're getting in the way. But it was in terms like starts. I wasn't going to start over, but he actually got stopped and he went all the way back up the cot Katahdin and started over again. That is tough. I'm so I'm a weekend and I've got yes, Torren quadricep I've got raging kneecap, basically patella for moral issue on the other side. Too bad injuries at once, and knowing injuries. I was just like I'm kind of screwed. It can't hobble, you know, even using my poles, those crutches. And it was just one of those things where I walked 31 miles that day.

And Horton was David Horton was with me and old horse. He was just trying to psych me up, like you just gotta walk it off, you know? And I'm just thinking, this is not basically, you know, shin splints or, you know, to be Alice posterior and anterior problems like he had. This is serious stuff, and I'm just like, this is not gonna go. And I just walked for two and 1/2 days, and then I just gradually ran more and more each day. And I think the biggest thing is I was always threatened,

that needle of like, just enough stress to the body, but still getting a decent amount of mileage to where it could get back up. Because no matter of a few days, I had to get back up to almost 50 miles day. Otherwise so what heard what the hurt were the most. Like what? Either with walking or with running like, Was it the downs, the flats, the rocks like? Like definitely the downhills were the worst, But everything was hurting. For the 1st 2 days, it was like the most pain I've ever had. It was like Somebody take a a dentist drilling into my knee cap on one side.

And you know, the other side somebody taking a butter knife and slicing the quiet. And just again, I've dealt with a lot of pain, but that was next level. And Jenny was out there, and I was just like, How is this gonna happen? I mean, it was demoralize you. How many times a day during that?

Well, 344

And you're seeing him in some of his most like, vulnerable moments you've ever

seen him. I mean, he's like walking with, you know, like a bag of ice taped around his knees. I was just like, Oh, my God, this is so embarrassing. People brought their families out. T o. Is that guy hobbling down

my husband? Don't take a picture of this, please. It was good that we're in the south, and but the bad part. I mean, the Smokies just annihilated me, you know? So where and again you're trying to do 300 mile weeks. You can't train for that.

Was it was it like the Georgia ups and downs? It just crushed your right away. Or like what? What do you

think it was? Just, um I've had, you know, definitely issues with a right knee, Patel, for moral thing. But again, that's sheer mileage. Until the body adapts. I mean, all through hikers can relate to this. There are gonna be things. I knew they were gonna be injuries. That's why I was like, OK, I've got a press through this.

I've got to find the fine line between not overdoing it but still getting miles in. And so that's why I walked literally every step for two days. It's pretty amazing that, like you, what you know about your own body and your own limits and what you've done already. And you're still like you're you're learning, like, where? Where it's like where your body lies with challenging yourself

like that, Like learning for the first

time, I had a lot of cases. Still, even though, had all the experience. And that's that's what helped is, like psychologically, even though it was so distraught. So just like down in, like, the deepest canyon possible mentally, I figured, OK, there could be some ways I could get through this. If I do things right, What is a normal recovery time for a Tauron? Quiet.

I mean, usually it would be like 4 to 6 weeks, so I know that was gonna be my entire time on the trail. So I had to, and that's where again they can be active recovery occurring. While you're still stressing the bike, you just have to find that stress point. That's like jobs. It was that's what was so cool about this journey. Why Jenny and I went on and in the first place we wanted I wanted to do something different. I was at a point my career, where I needed to shake it up and shaking it up meant hobbling down the trail the first week of time travel a little bit too. Sorry to cut you off S O. This is We're in the heart of Scott's injury. I want to now get Jenny's perspective. You mentioned that you became a Doubter at that point, did you think that the hike was done? Did you give him a 1% chance of 50? Like, what was what was going through your head at that point?

Oh, I definitely thought we were done because, you know, he never takes any kind of pain meds or anything. And then I thought, like Cordy was like goto Walgreen to get something like we didn't even have any ibuprofen. So I was like, Okay, this isn't this is news. New territory? Yeah, this means we're done.

I mean, she's started off loading things like we had. I gave away a pair

of shoes way he was walking down the aisle on Johnny's. Hostile is like I was like, dinner with him hobbling down and with horny e dollars like, great two old guys just making their way down. So where I was like, Oh, who wants the issues way

were hiking with this thru hiker and no poles was his trail name. And I'm like, Hey, what size he has yet nearly feed. He was wearing these big boots make you got to get some trail runners, like what size you like in my mind's Really? Hey, what else can we set you up with? Helping, Really? Of course. Then in New Hampshire,

he was like, where those size 12

12 and 1/2 hours. I had, like, a bigger

Sison like you give those with Cassidy is on that part. I wore

six pairs of pure grits and then two pairs of Cascadia is OK. That was that. Yeah, I was. It's a pairs of shoes. Were you voicing your doubt to Scott, or were you internalizing it knowing that in his head like the that he still thought he was going to accomplish

this? No, I mean, he knows I could never I always have to say what I'm thinking. I don't like hold

back. So I was like when people read the book with Jenny, you know, she co writes and gives her viewpoint be like, Whoa, like, get real with cracker over here. Well, so that's actually an interesting thought. That I'm having is, like is like because, like, what is the psychological effect that you're you're having from your wife being on board, whether it's positive or negative or positive and negative simultaneously with like, I my wife's here. I want to, like,

perform well for her and make this all, like, part of my life with her there. And like, where's the I don't like what's your perspective from that? Like for wanting to be a long and help your husband.

Yeah, well, I feel like the whole trip was about

us. It was like we needed to come and get away from this other stuff

we were doing with that home and just, like, have an adventure together. So I think there was never like, a question of Oh, should she be here or not? But the dynamic is strange because it is like me. I was just like, God stop! You know, stop lollygagging. Stop dragging your feet just like hurry up, get up! Like I was just, like, totally heard us. And then at the end,

like towards the end, I was just like, Whoa, too much, Too much. Bring it in, bring it real it And like, stopped like it got to a point where I couldn't push him out the door anymore because he just didn't look like himself. And it was like

she was worried I wasn't gonna come back again. So your perspective twin on its own. Little

like, Yeah,

ebbs and flows and highs

and lows. Right, Because at the beginning, I was like, Oh, you know, where's put some heart into it like, Why don't you try? And then at the end, I was like, Oh, too much too Yeah, so

it makes sense like that. And that's the I think that's what's so cool about a friendship or relationship. You have to be able to You have to know when to give tough love. And you have to be able to get that carrying and, you know, so that Jenny was doing both. And she's really good at it. Like people would see that side of like, you know what? It's done a weekend like Oh, hell, no. Like we've you know, we've put our life on hold for two months here, So I think, yes, there was motivation from all sides where she did give that nurturing love.

I mean, she drove around, followed me for like, 46 days like that isn't love. I mean, then like doing my laundry and doing all these things and managing us up on top of being no by herself in these remote areas. So so was it mostly Herb you by yourself? Or was like you said Horny was

there for some time. I mean, I was by myself for, like, just he and I for two weeks, But then the rest of the time, there were people. And then, you know, um, a lot of times

I would be by myself, but people locals would come and run to we did ever friends who said you were gonna come out. But you never knew exactly. And is always the speed go. It was a total wild wild card. Wild go Wow, He's a wild goat Where you just just sorrel melter? Yeah, by the way, you mentioned that. You know, there's always people around. This is actually something that Jennifer for Davis wrote about in the chapter covering Scott's f k t. Was that you were a little You're a little bit put off by the fact that you didn't really have any alone time with Scott. Did he talk a little bit about, I think, the expectation of what the journey was versus what it ended up becoming

Well, I mean, isn't it? I guess help is a double edged sword, right? You know, I mean, and it was great. And I don't want to be like, Oh, the fans were crazy but to me, and it wasn't like, Oh, where this is our trip. Please, everybody, please leave us alone.

It wasn't like that. It was just that I had a lot of things to Dio is so And then all the people came and especially when I got super crowded I couldn't even parked at the trailhead and stress It's stressful. It was a little stressful, but also just, um it was I totally understand it because it was awesome. People would come out and they'd bring their kids and they'd be like, Oh, we just had to see for ourselves. People drive all these distances, but I'm and that was really great. But for me, I was just so busy and so stressed and like under slept, so I kind of was like,

Well, people

like asking you for rides. You're right. Somebody as if we could watch their kids just baby sit, I would, But it's just there's just

so much going on and what he supposed to do It every time that happens. Like tell the whole story of what you're doing like that probably got old too, right?

I mean, yeah. So

I feel bad. I wanted stats because they had reception. So they're like, Hey, what's happened between the time that I drove out of reception out, You have a better update because,

you know, I mean, and people would come and they'd be like, Oh, he's five miles out and I'd be like, Oh, thanks, because they be at work on their computer and they could see where it was, and then they drive out. So it was great sometimes.

And we had, you know, people would bring food like out in these vegan desserts that we have taken over overwhelmingly, it would rain, had to think really positive, even the stuff that was stressful, that brought out in the end, like Jennings that was so cool in so many ways, like, yeah, it was stressful. It was hard for me too, sometimes run with 12 people and a lot of quest, the same questions, and yeah, I wasn't able to just be in my head. Space is everything outside of Vermont, the vegan desert basically These are the 18. I don't know. There's actually a pretty

good Jenna. Continue Was a little bit of a desert for Oh, thanks. I'm

not vegan. So, you know, you know, p A with the truck goes through p a. That leaves much to be desired in terms of, like, options for decent anything. I'll say vegan fare trail fair. Like I'm not gonna I'm not gonna tout the P a section of the of the 80. It'll

Oh, I mean, I was just just back to the question like it wasn't bad, like the people were awesome. But sometimes, you know, at five in the morning, Scott would open the door of the van and everybody be, like, suited up. And he's like, have 20 paper roll of his hand to be like it's kind of ready to run with. It was awesome

because they got a chuckle out of it, too. They like What were you thinking at the same time? Like I could see the enthusiam like it was it was cool. It was this exchange of energy and, like Jenny said, it was amazing, like we would have changed like we aren't complaining about it. because it was It added, this other element and this other expense are friends who came out there just like, Whoa, this is, like, so wild. And our buddy 10 he started, he was, like,

offering to help everybody, right? Whoa, whoa, whoa. We don't do that. Like it just created this energy back and forth. Think people would give us energy. I would be inspired by people. People tell their life story to me. They tell me about the area that we were running through and hiking through. It was really a cool exchange back and forth. And there were those times were yet, like, I would tell people, Hey,

you know what? I'm not gonna talk for the next hour or so, but you guys are more than welcome to talk. Yeah, um I had to tell people something like, I need a mile by myself right now to wallow in myself because I'm thinking in my head, like so that's what was tricky. Sometimes is that all these people wanted to be a part of it. But then, like hate, you know, actually, I need some time, just like, and you obviously had to know that those moments were possible going into this thing just because of who you are and how popular the 80 is. Yeah,

we weren't. I mean, we put a tracker out there. We were posting about it. Even though it wasn't as regular, we weren't. We don't have this master plan of like, oh, we're gonna orchestrate this huge endeavor and have all these people attached to it. It just kind of happened, and it snowballed to the point where it was like, Well,

I didn't know that was I mean, because I didn't really know much about the idea. I didn't know much about the community and the following, and like now I get it. Not like it truly is. This, Yeah, is something, Scott.

It seems like you're uniquely suited for something like that because you strike me as an extra Burt. I think you guys even write about that, um, and job here the same way. Like you had a ton of fanfare when you're doing your south down through, I can. Obviously every director won't take the picture with you. I think I'm more like Jenny in the fact that, like I like, I genuinely like people. But I'm introverted. So, like those kinds of interactions air draining for me. So I think for you to be able to accomplish something like that you said that you were feeding off of that energy from people for me. I think it would have the opposite effect. Yeah, I think everyone is different.

And I have always thought of myself in it as an introvert who's able to be good in social situations, and I'm also, I don't know, maybe it's the Minnesota thing. Or maybe my parents, like, always teach me to be nice and also been doing this for I've been doing it for a long time. Yeah, but that's just who I am. Like, I wasn't going out. There'd be like, Oh, I'm gonna talk to everyone because But why did I go north bound? Like I wanted to hang out with other through hikers, even if like walking with them for a mile or two,

like I got a lot of time. Like I'd go toe shelters and sign my name and I get talking. And now they want me to, like, have a have a drink with Theo into the memory of it. I'm sure actually thinking about 2015. That was You didn't write. That was the year where I think, uh, Instagram kind of became mainstream The thru hiking culture and I remember seeing your picture everywhere. Like everyone was very excited to get their selfie

with you. At what

point did it change from autographs to selfies? It seems like no one ost ask for autographs anymore. Not many, but surprises out on the 80. It was funny like I had even through hikers. I was up in the middle of Vermont just getting hammered on. It was like 10 o'clock at night or ninth. There was the sun was still like, you know, there was light. It was so dark and just getting hammered with rain in this thru hiker comes out with this plastic bag over and eat and run Copy and like, wanted me to sign it on the middle of nowhere. So there was some of that and people would come out with entrails, but in general photos and like you said, that whole culture was pretty pretty vibrant.

Dude, that was like

a really inspiring thing that you did for a lot

of people. Like I'm gonna say

something out loud here that I haven't talked about in a while. But like when

you when you never know for real Like so when I was

going on my south bound winner through lack of the a t, I was even texting Zach about this. I was

like I was

feeling good One side, I got like, a winner and and I thought in my brain, like directed this and how How you know, how many how many days, how many hours.

And I was like, I think

like, That's something that maybe I would want to aspire to at some point, you know, like not necessarily in a supported way, but but, like in the thru hiker fashion of self supporting, I was like in my brain just that that's how magnetic and how Just like what you did just had so much energy involved with it throughout the whole through maker community was just got people's wheels turning, man. It really did. And it was fun for me like that, Sarge, any it was fun for Jenny to like. Yeah, it was crazy and maybe a little overwhelming at times, but then it was pretty cool like because that energy gets shared. You know, people are on their journey right,

and they're inspiring people back home, doing their things. So if we can pass on inspiration and just kind of the world's a better place when I agree, humans share. And my whole thing is, yeah, I'm a little bit more sharing. Maybe too much, because they got me away because there's people out there that you know do keep things to themselves, and that's fine. But like, there's gotta be people out there that share to the point of, like, just the domino effect or butterfly ripple of just positive energy and inspiration. And like that you were it for a lot of people in myself included. Well,

thank you, Yeah, it was a blast in it. That's where it was to meet all those different through hikers. If I didn't have that attitude, we would have gotten that experience or as much, and I still wanted that 80 thru hiker experience, and it's such a social trail, and it's such outside the people who came out, um, I really felt like there was not all through hikers wanted to, or you felt the need to, like, hang out, and that's totally fine, too.

There were some people that wanted to just kind of keep to themselves, but it was fun to come into a shelter and people were just jazzed about it. And, you know, I was jealous. Not like I wish I was fired a couple of hours and I would love I would love to hang out and have a drink with you guys, but I have will never leave here. But I don't leave now because I've got four more hours tonight, So yeah, it was really cool. Do you think you've had an impact or changed either the culture of F. Katie's or at least the amount of interest in them? I mean, I don't know, I guess I don't know if I can answer that question. That's probably for somebody else.

If people would put that on me and maybe put the blame on me that well, he popularized it even more when you say blame in a negative connotation. But like, well, positive and negative like they could attach that to me. I mean, I definitely brought more attention to them, but am I the sole reason that f k T surprise, I think fastest known times, speed records, whatever you want to call them. They've always had a following and maybe having individuals who have followings now and with the Internet and with social media that has maybe changed things a little bit more. Maybe because they think that there's money in them, which I really like. You talk about a niece area, it's it's interesting.

So I don't know, like what I've done to the f k t world, but maybe asking somebody else they'd be able to tell you that more in an appropriate manner. But I definitely brought more attention to it. And some people like think that's negative. Some people think that's positive, hopefully like jobs. So I hope that people carry themselves and like a, I think, a courteous and polite man or not, because some people thought I literally was out that racing and like created this event and yeah, and that was a very small, tiny percentage of naysayers and stuff. But what I would hope is that if I've caused any increase in F k. T that people carry themselves, not that they have toe create a big buzz around it.

It's more that courteous and play and be part of the community and become, uh, yeah, plugged in versus just, like, you know, being something that's actually gonna cause negativity. Yeah, that's where, like Jenny to like, she enjoyed it to hanging out with the through hikers on, you know, given them trail magic. I mean, some people thought we were the Cliff Buyer van and the bricks back like a Do you have any extra shoes? Do you have any expert like gels? And they were just grab stuff.

And James, like we actually need you get you get a pair of Brooks

and Jenny. Were you prepared for just how smelly

through hikers are? Um, I e seen you, you

know, some ultra runners who

live in their trucks. So it's kind of the same same. You know, climbers spent saying like climbing dirty. She can roll with that. Imagine that, Scott,

you're less stinky than the average director because you're eating like a cleaner vegan diet. The wreckers running on Rahman and burritos like you

can smell like apple cider vinegar. Big guy will drink that

combination. Compost. Our buddy, our buddy Timmy Was he describes us, and we write about it in North, Out. He's like, you know, he's literally becoming the trail he smells like And I was laying in the trail like I was definitely, like, not pristine you Jenny had, like, find ticks on me and, um, deal with my body odors. But definitely, but,

you know, when I was on the trail, I ate two salads like I was not a role model of vegan on and what I like to eat normal. So I turned every base Julius I turned into a junk food vegan. So I was a lot like a ah thru hiker, like when they were veggie burgers. Or were there when there was, like vegan ice cream like coconut milk ice cream. What turned into shakes like Jenny would bring those like it was all about Callie. Just get it in May care what job and I consider a vegan mochi ice cream like healthy food. It's probably so maybe I smelled a little bit, you know, make sure you wipe down with some wet wipes. I mean, I did have to lay next to somebody else. I think when you have a partner on the trail where you're staying in shelters.

And we spent nights on the trail those last weeks. Yeah. I mean, I got the whole experience of, like, mice, rats running around me, and like you were sleeping in shelters, shelters on the trail, on rocks, anywhere I could find. You fingered his heart. Yeah, sometimes it was just like on the ground. I didn't care. Couple hours,

several hours, 30 minutes. You got an hour there. If my you know, this is where Jenny could no longer be the bad cop and just being like, get up, like, you know, there's time. Do you want the record or not? Like it's come down to that? And I had friends who were like, Okay, you get 30 minutes. It would like set their clock and they would like, sit under like a bug,

Matt. It makes him notified. Hiker trash, just like sleeping on rocks on the middle of the trail. That's that's I think hiker trashes

them and you're pure dirt. I wasn't

getting high. I wasn't getting camping permits. Turned me into a I got enough trouble as it was. So So, yeah, I was sleeping anywhere and that was really part of the fun to is just rolling in. And I'm sure some because I roll in late and people don't even realize, like, who is that? Sometimes I was in a tent, like some people did Hall in a tent specially that gnarly night. So we didn't know if I was gonna be at a shelter or literally, like on a rock, Like, you know, it just got tricky where I could sleep and when I would No, it was It was it was a lot of fun.

So, yeah, I got that experience as well. I think some people assume, like, how he had this posh man and life was so easy. Jenny, what was the? Or maybe you have a different perspective on this than Jenny will. But, like, do you remember the harshest thing you said to Scott question?

Oh, I am the harshest thing. No, I just remember. I remember early on when he was sitting down like legs dangling off the side of a van like just having a regular old tailgate, and I was like, um, isn't it? Yeah, and then he was like, If it comes down to the hours then you can get mad at me. And I totally just remember that. Well, like it, dude, Come down to the O I on

And I heard I told you so late weeks after exactly. She rightfully could could have said that because you gave us crazy. But am I gave her the M O. And it was Yeah, and that's the thing I was actually, Jenny and I were out there. I loved hanging out and I got do half hour lunches at the van like again. I wasn't treating every day like it was a race. And maybe that was part of the problem that I wasn't as like in that vigilant, vigilant. But I think a lot of people assume that. Here's this, you know, Runner All Turner got a five minute break. Start the alarm and that's not me, particularly. I wanted to do this journey.

I wanted to do it in the fashion I wanted. And, you know, I have a big background in backpacking hunting, inefficient. I'm a dirtbag at heart and spending time on the trail, camping on the trail. It's something that Jenny and I love to do, so it's kind of funny people assume that we're just, uh we're out there, you know? He's run her dudes and gal that were out there and just we're gonna, like, you know, we're just gonna go on run the trail, because there's a lot of that.

People think they could just be a runner on. It's a hiking. Yeah, And slogging slash maybe jogging. And sometimes you get a good run in. You mentioned briefly that you, Hunter Fisher. What kind of wondering what you doing? I grew up. I did a wide range of stuff. So anything that moved pretty much in north, like I grew up doing all day and all kinds of fishing like Big Lake Lake Superior. Two small lake trout fishing. I didn't really fly fish. That was the only thing I didn't do that hunting a little bit Everything. So yeah.

Now I'm vegan. Go figure. Jenny. I'm curious. So obviously, this is the first time that you had crude for anything like this before. Correct? Is there anything that you would have done you do differently if you guys were gonna go for the same adventure again?

Um, yeah. There's a lot of things that we can t Oh, um I don't know if you guys have attempts to read her book, but we we did talk about how we didn't plan ahead enough. So I think I think we would just have lined up our help a little bit more in advance instead of being like, Oh, we're gonna just started and whoever can come can come and meet us. But I think we would have Maybe that's

a hard signed on dot You will be here because you have Jenny was by herself, and it was great in so many ways. But it was Gary for both miss because like, she's on the middle of nowhere with this van. And I mean, it's amazing psychological effect for you. Definitely, like writing by yourself. Yeah, we talk about this in North where I mean being a single female in the middle of nowhere, and it's not just because it's the Deep South and there's Confederate flags flying on these remote roads. But just yeah, there's a lot that can happen out there, not from it. It's just flat tires. I mean, you name it,

So when you're out of cell service, yeah, there's this not help is not around the corner, even though there's great people around the corner in a lot of times, but it's a different element, but it was also what we had hoped. So yeah, they're better planning. There'd be a lot of different things we d'oh on some days I'm like, Oh man, we could do this so much better it be fun to go back and do the 18 Jenny's like one and done, we could do something different. Uh, how many times people reference deliverance before he started this? Because I got that

before I started Way Try not to be cliche air stairs people like, but people did say that and like a legit did see Confederate flags. But

Jenny is like brown skin Sheikhoun say this like,

really? I mean, I did feel scared a couple times, but it was mostly because I was unfamiliar with what lay around the bend or like where I was, you know, like I didn't have that familiar. I think

it's the dark out like you're just afraid of what you can't see. Oh,

yeah, And

she was out there waiting for hours sometimes, cause I said, Oh, yeah, we'll be in by dark or little after dark. And it was like 11. 30 midnight That

takes balls I weigh

like to point that out because I think a lot of Jenny is a tough outdoor galaxy, rolls with the guys she climbs with the guys you know and does like hard time in terms of being comfortable out there. Woods. But

But, I mean, a lot of times you it was so rainy. And so, like a lot of these logging roads that I'd be on, we're really muddy. And if I got stuck, or if I like somehow, you know, I would be three hours away from anybody to be like, Hey, can you call somebody to get me pulled out? So that was always a concern to like not just the

people, but just like the situation. I'm curious, would you? Because he said he didn't really prepare for this, Would you? If you could do it again when you go South bound? Because it seems like for the f. K. T is built to do South Bone. Definitely. Yeah. I mean, I I want to go north down for aesthetic reasons. In a hole through hiking Yeah, just finishing. And like so many others,

and I thought, I'll be better prepared like I'll be trail hardened and you know that I'll be able to not float through the whites. But I'll be, like, ready for him, right? And I mean, I was so destroyed by the time I got through Vermont that the rain that was happening wrong. I made a big mistake exactly like a new speed. Gotta be you. Speed. God, I mean, that was his first thing like, Dude, you're going backward.

What the hell did this the wrong way? Going the wrong

way? I would go So But it's interesting. Look at the last three records have been set on North bound and so I don't know, it's just a matter. Everyone's different. What they have time lies when they can leave where they can leave. But I do think and I think your weather windows air better. Sure, there could be bad. Hurricane asks storms and we know and with all the changes in climate, but I'd say yes, be good. I think did have it right, because the weather is more stable. You start in August. If he start in you know, late July or even September because I think you mentioned in North that you hit Vermont in June,

which is like a river mud season. It's the mean and it was 300 whatever that is. 300 year, adding another kept records for 300 years. But they said, like 300 year record rainfall like it hadn't rained that much in June. Yeah, ever since they Claremont takes their mud's seriously, I knew was gonna be bad. Like I'd been on Vermont for six miles when I ran the Vermont 100 just cause I checked it out, I wanted to see the 80 and it was, like, beautiful in July. Um, and it was a good spot, but I knew it would be bad,

but it was like a swamp, like half the time is a mix of just these stretches. Or it just be like, wow, like a mid calf almost up to me, and it it just really took its toll. So these days that I was finishing at 11 or 10 o'clock at night, putting in 50 miles a day. Vermont can be a pretty good state for a lot of speed. record attempts, and it turned in to be like, I mean, Hardy was up there with us, and he was just like, Man, I've never seen mud and he's done the long trail.

He's done the 80. He knows what it could be like up there and, yeah, so it's just set me up to be really. And then when help, it was helping Carl, I saw like the South when it's dry and it's incredible how fast, how easy you can move when again, when you start late, May. In the South, the terrain there is so steep, and when it's muddy, it's night and day when it's dry. Like I saw him, I was like about this.

Try different And, like the trail in some of those Georgia stretches, its like on an angle todo like North Carolina, Tennessee. You name it, it's it's rough. So what advice would you offer to someone that I wanted to go after the Appalachian Trail, F K T. Or really any f k t in general? Well, I think I think first stuff, you have to ask yourself why you're doing it. And I think for me, even though maybe things weren't perfect like Jenna. We didn't weigh, had prepared some things,

but we weren't, like, perfectly prepared. So you have to ask yourself why you're gonna be out there. Because when things get rough, when you don't think you can go on or you're questioning like this was a stupid idea, Yeah, At least you can drop on those reasons. And for me, Jenny and I knew we needed to be out there. We needed to be out in the woods. I need a big adventure. I needed something to take me back to those places that are really hard to go to. Um, I've been doing it for so many years as an athlete, and yet I needed to have a reason to go back to those places and remind myself,

Yes, there are important things like that. And there are reasons we go there even though, like we can always articulate them. Finally. But I know why you're out there. I think is would be my first piece of advice. And the others are, you know, Then it kind of comes around like, Are you more the detail oriented individual? Are you going like check every little stat or you're somebody who's like Okay, I'm gonna lay some of that,

You know, a lot of

pre hike anxiety to cross every t and dot every I, particularly with something like that. It's like you said, You know, looking back, you wish you'd had some of these details covered, but like, would that have taken away from your overall psyche going into it? That definitely And this is we're like to compare us with Speak out like I've known Karl for years and speed goat, he's lake. And he drove the entire trail just from accruing standpoint one spring, just to see, like, where the best spots, what makes the most sense. And Virginia is like, we're not gonna do that,

and we actually didn't want to see much of it. And if we had seen as much as, like somebody Karl, maybe we would have liked stopped way earlier in the trip and insane serial Italian. Well, that's the thing is like having some of that of interest. So I think knowing why you're out there, like for us. We wanted to have that adventure and we knew things were gonna go sideways pretty bad sometimes, But that's also what made it so amazing. And Carl was high, obviously hyper focused on getting that right. Definitely. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's different ways to approach it, so somebody is going to take a different strategy.

And that's where again you just have to have. So that's where you get into, like the lily nitty gritty, nitty gritty details of a trip like that. How were you gonna approach it? Because I could tell you like, Oh, okay, here's my advice. You definitely need to go south. You need Thio. Yeah, not necessarily. Right Click it String Bean. Lookit. There's always surround skin.

A cat. There's a definite, but there's a lot of different things speed and the idea with this is one thing I would say is we learned right away or not right away, but later on the trip. And this is something Carl and I and Andrew Thompson and I have talked about. There's this whole idea of, like, how much is support like a detriment as much as a help because having a crew vehicle out there again, I sat there for long periods of time, hanging out with Jenny having all these long lunches or just kind of like wanting to have that time with her. And does it create more

hours? But like you enjoyed

it? Yeah, I enjoyed it. But from a strategy standpoint, this is where crewing and support actually might be a detriment. Like somebody like String, being totally self supported crushes the record. But why you were out their exact right. I wanted to have a co op experience. So that's the thing is like what? So finding that balance for everybody is gonna be different, but there is that idea of, like, being flexible on, but maybe not like there were days when I told you, like, I don't want you out in these roads like you've had some kind of experiences were just It's a little too dicey.

I'm good for 25 miles. So I would do days like that, commonly in the South and in Virginia, just because didn't make sense for to drive all these vast distances to see me every 10 miles. Where's Carl's like if there's a road and it's easily accessible, give me that record, your baby, you're gonna drive up there, and I just like Carl, really like Dude, you? How many miles did they derive on that? It would have been insane. I was only out there the last 10 days, but again, that's just a different strategy.

It was fun watching you out there with him. Bythe it was It was good to see it from the other side. And I think that's what Carl loved, because there weren't a lot of people doing this and he came out for two weeks and he didn't want to go. He actually wanted to skip hard. Rocket went where he told Jenny that anyways, because it is fun, like when you're helping somebody do that in the energy that's happening, it's It's a wild trip. So, yeah, I think I have your heavier priorities set and just really find out, like what? What's most important for you and what that level of support Because the other part two is like where you sleep. I think the crew vehicle can be this like magnet that can pull you away sometimes off of maybe a good day that you could put in a few more miles, and I ended up sleeping on the trail a lot.

Those last two weeks and I think that was helpful because what we weren't always tethered, because in the North, you're so limited where you can crew from Interesting. So So, uh, it's funny that you mention that is like understanding why you're doing it is it is a major crux, because that is probably the biggest crooks in the book that I wrote appellation trials. That's what the practice that I encourage people to do before they leave for the through like it's actually write down their reasons before they leave for the trail tohave a Siri's of lists. That's one of them. I'm curious. Did you spend time before you left for this F K T times actually like vocalizing what your reasons were for hiking? Or is this just something that you were playing with as the endeavor was? I'm going. Is that the psychologist of your mother coming through? I think it really. I mean,

I love and that's what I love about this sport through hiking, ultra running, I mean, ultra endurance, survival, whatever you wanna call it. I love the psychology department. That's what keeps me going back. So why didn't have a list like, written out on you know, a phone or a piece of paper. I had it up in my head. I'm like the reasons we're out there like Jenny and I had been having difficulties raising a family she had been through almost that. Jim was diet, Yeah, miscarriage.

And, like, you know, it really was this journey, Like for us. We were out there because we realized like, life is so fragile. You know, if we had been hiking or somewhere remote when she had her ectopic pregnancy, she could've bled to death, and it really just set the wheels in motion, like, Okay, life is short. The time is now like there were these things were going through my head of, like,

I need to really do this for my career. I need to, like, jump start. So all of those reasons were spinning in my head. I didn't write them down. Probably either. More powerful. I know. Like anytime you write down something, it's more powerful. But, um, I had him in my head and then they did evolve as I went along, too. And there were times where I still doubt him.

I think that's okay too. For people who are listening who are like, man, I really want to do it through hike. But I just don't have the time or their something's holding them back, right? Sometimes you just have to make it a priority or find those reasons to, like, do it. And once you do get out there like, be okay with those days of like, why am I out here? This is this is so because you're gonna have them like I had those. Even though I have my priorities, I knew I had to be out there. There were so many times,

right. This is stupid. Jenny and I were ready to quit in Vermont, and we're not trying to spoil those who You haven't read the book whether you've fallen along or not. People who read her like what? What's actually just as engaging and like suspenseful? Because we try to write in a manner of, like, telling people get we almost quit in Vermont like we're 500 miles from the finish line, and Jenny and I were just We broke down crying like she was too worked, and I was like, Let's just go home. This is like destroying both of us. This is about to hit him really hard section. Yeah, and it's only gonna get worse.

And I'm just like, let's just go home. And then she you know, you have to have that friend or that partner. Or maybe that's a hiking companion. The time be like going home like No way, like so she kind of like realized Okay, I need to take this back like you learn how to play those much. But it's okay to have those feelings. Like, even when you think like you're out there for all the right reasons, you're still gonna have those days where I could be back at home. This is so stupid. And that's why you see people I think quit not just because of the blisters early on, or the injuries or the pack. The fact that they're Pakis too heavy.

They quit because they think, Why am I here and that that displays over too far, too, and too many times like a weekend of two weeks in. And they don't give it time to Lake run its course relics course. Go after you and just get out. There must have been a deep emotional low to be 75% into this journey and be so sure that you wanted to quit. Oh, it's huge. And then, I mean, like, there was another time in Maine where I thought there was no chance the record was happening. Like, you know, I was trying to do math in my head when drunk on,

like, too many miles. Too little sleep, Johnny, Like, just And the numbers I had forgotten that, you know, your numbers all day come on a little bit. But then sometimes, like, I can't even figure this out. I'm just gonna that people just tell me, Okay, here's we need to go on, Like, remember,

Speed. God be like, okay. You know, I think you know there's a storm coming in. I think you really need to go another 14 tonight and be, like, 14. It's like eight o'clock at night e miles like it was a It was a 59 mile day that Yeah, and And he was like, I think you need to know their four towns, like, eight o'clock. It's getting dark. I was like, site because just cranked,

you are a bunch of miles held on to the fact that you were almost almost did 50 miles. It's like, Dude, you should bang out this other 14. And so I let people start doing the math and just where a speedboat knows it, so well, we're what? He's out there. He's He's the money guys, he's interned in numbers. Whereas I was just, like, I'd let other people do that stuff for me. And I'd be like, Okay, tell me what to do.

I was kind of just one of those, like, in the platoon, like, OK, tell me my job. I'm just gonna, like, do it. I don't wanna waste any energy. Yeah, I couldn't I couldn't do anything. I mean, it was bloody Timmy was like you were becoming a feral animal. Was just like, That's why I'm so impressed.

Look in your eye. You're Scott. But you're like someone else to definitely. How much weight did you lose on this? I lost £19 which for you I was gonna say you know what I mean. When I saw my weight at 1 52 it was like, frightening. At first, I was like, Whoa, like I knew I was getting thin that you feel your bones, You feel like but 61626262 So, 1 52 I was like, you know, there wasn't much left of me. I'm 5 10 and I haven't seen one of the two since I was a junior in high school.

I think it came out of my mom wanted Thio. Yeah, it's so for me. I was like, Well, I've never even I don't win myself a lot. But I'm like, when did I weigh 1 52? Maybe in high school, maybe in junior high kind of thing. So, yeah, it was pretty like scary. What? Yeah, What?

I left out on the trail there. And like, what was possible, I was holding on and just, you know, surviving. That's why it's so impressive when I talk about, like, this whole mental thing of, like, how did people do math? Guys like string being self supported like he's having to do the math, you know, on his own. And maybe he could self support. Maybe somebody was helping him do math occasionally,

or something like that, but probably maybe it's pretty cool stuff. We're like, Well, he was doing it on his own. But I was Do you think that's the most impressive f k t his? I mean, I'd have to say, like, self supported at that pace, which again, when I was out there and Carlin on all these were the types, like Okay, yes, we've done it. So we can kind of maybe have a little bit more credit to be.

Well, I think this was doable a lot faster, and maybe somebody could do itself. Sport, I thought, I find it like, not incredible, like, out of the realm of possibility. But it was so impressive. Like how he held up and how he's able to do all the things. Like I said, just the simple things. Like putting up a tent, right? You put in those miles like that's what makes it so impressive.

Um, the mileage seems doable on paper. And like I said, he you probably wasted last time because he didn't have a vehicle. He didn't have a crew that was, like, lowing under, like, almost like a distraction. Exactly like maybe it was more focused and he didn't have a lot of other things going. I mean, I'm just talking. I haven't talked in length with him and being able to ask him those questions. But I think because he was so focused on didn't have those distractions. Maybe that's the reason that and I do find in public knowing how far it pushed myself. Yeah,

I can only imagine some days when he's having to try and do some of these My new sha of details that you take for granted when you're being supported. Sure. So have you talked to either him or Carol? Is that Carol? Carol has howto timeout Ultraworld. So I was looking to you guys for leadership there,

like is that there is more of a runner?

I don't know. No, actually think he's more of a through hike. Okay, Summer Ultra e. I know he owns the P C T f K T as well. I think he's more of a thru hiker. I can't know he's maybe dabbled, but will anyone listen to his podcast? Knows that I'm historically bad name, so they're not surprised that I don't know how to say That's okay. Um, I actually haven't talked a story. It's funny. I was at Boston Marathon this past weekend, and I came across some books. There was a note from him last year like he just missed me because he's from Massachusetts,

where he was last year, I think. But, um, I actually haven't gotten a chance on Yeah, we've missed each other a few times, but definitely because I've always been fascinated with one of my heroes of cult, of the sport of thru hiking was Scott Williamson like he was and is to this day one of my heroes. Like when I read that article on him of his yo yo like And that's what I think a lot of people don't know. It's like I've been way into through, like, I used to get backpacker back when I lived in Minnesota and dream about going to these places, like how the Grand Canyon in Arizona Trail never just never did. But he was one, and I just was blown away with what he did on an athletic level. But psychological and just his approach.

So, yeah, there's all these through hikers. I just haven't had a chance to sit down and talk to you, but I'd love to talk to Joe and and asked him about that. That whole piece because I find that mesmerizing, like when you have to, like, lay out your stuff, get your drops like that drops to me like never missing a drop. Like Jenny was amazing on the sports. I'd like the fact that she only missed me twice and once it was because of somebody else's fault. And the other was there was a closed for skate in Virginia. Likes he had not missed me one entire time, but for Joe to get all of his drops. Yeah,

and be able to do that. That's that's impressive show working with skirt right now. Yeah, he's He's here in Boulder, right? I don't burn. Region has got guides over the contract because I'm not sure is my spears. Well, well, we definitely need to connect. Yeah, So we'll get an all star panel here specializing boulder. Another drink bythe I got a job. You don't hoard them. I did not just say

you know what Never flushes way Little potty

break in the back. Yeah, In case you couldn't hear, there was a little dips of silence from the different Panelists here. Uh, I'm good on that. Help herself, The beers, guys I think we talked about the 80 thing. Enough. I want to know what life after the eighties looked like. So what? What has happened since the 80 for you guys? And there's a very obvious answer in the room. Um, but I'd love to hear from you guys.

Well, we did have kids. So, like we finished in July and then I guess we got pregnant in September. And then So we had one little girl and then we had another little boy just last march. So now it's the vans. A little crowded, Our little p c T. We're doing like a section hiker of the PCT. It I mean, not a second night, but yeah,

it's a sexual were doing in pieces were on the 20 year plan, probably 25 years at this point. But dichotomy to go from the f k t to a 20 year PCT

started the PCT first, right? Yeah, So we just haven't been able to get back yet because we have extra weight to carry around

is amazing when you have 50 like we go ultra light like we're definitely like the 15 to £20 pack. Wait.

But now We're, like, outdated. I got diapers light, but now we see what everybody else is like. Holy crap, we need

up. But even so, when you have 55 £55 of kiddo Yeah, right. We're starting with 55 and that's why I pack animals that way. We're thinking we need Lama. Cindy Ross wrote. You think llamazares way, at least at this age because we have almost three year old in a one year old and, like, Rave in She's a Charger, but she's still probably out, you know, a year and 1/2 2 years from, like, really putting in smiles. And so you're carrying him a lot.

So that's where I think pack us that that I guess from where we are, like, we're at a different speed, right? Or camels just came from Jordan. I

mean, really kills actually were a

discovered

to have originated in Canada. Did you know that they found the oldest

fossils and bones rather of camels found in Canada. Crazy? That is what I can handle the cold, then. Yeah, yeah, its

interesting. So the mood

was one of the most adaptable animals on earth, so Well, that's Ah That's what I like. So we're We're sorting that out. Like, right now, we're probably gonna be more back bike packers than Backpackers. Just because biking with kid wait is a little easier. Sure. Um so that's one thing that and Jenny night packing was a tandem. Is that how it works? I don't even know. With the logistics,

no pulling a trailer and then having like, the two seats on one, each bike has a seat. So if

you don't want to be in the trailer cause rave in like she loves to go for hours riding on the back like she feels part of it like she can see better. And then when they do naps or when the weather is bad, you put it in the trailer. So we haven't done like big sojourns yet, But that's kind of our planet's tohave things that way. And then you can haul stuff. Um, but yeah, and really just mean mentally physically recovering from the appellations alive. People who seem like you got to do another one. Like I know job is just like banging them out here, You know, first season, I'm single. Baby weighs fired up for me after the 80 was like, Whoa! Like it's a huge psychological and,

yeah, physical toll I still physically recovering from No, no, no, I physically I'm fine. But mentally, it took a while. Now a genuine Jenny's warmed up to, like, the idea of doing something again. And, you know, it's a big time. I could, right? Yeah,

it's a big commitment. Time lies and, you know, So we're excited. We want to do something big again. Now, like we mentioned, Castle Black is gonna be more crowded. It's gonna be a different element having kids, But it's gonna be a fun element, too. So hoping for another big adventure speed record kind of thing. Interesting for next year. So we'll see. I I've had a lot of different ideas, but these are the things that I've saved for late in my career as well.

It's just wear him mentally is toe to be there. So, you know, like what? The surprise people, They literally some of my friends, like speed goat didn't even know. Like, here's a guy like you think I would a tap for information. Yeah, he literally found out when we were driving out to the 80 on our way up to Georgia. And most people didn't know until the day I posted it on Instagram before we got to get what spiders in them, which I, which I loved about cause I was like, I don't want pressure. I don't want although,

like talk and you know, the hype beforehand. I just want to go and do it. And then nail started out. So yeah, there's a lot of that and then, like the PCT in these things, like our own personal, like projects of doing so We we love love being out there and getting out there. I feel like you're sad stepping over talking about for next year here a little

bit. Scott, you're not divulge you. You can tell the world of recording you maybe. Oh, I'm recording.

Yeah, it's always a debate because Jenny and I have these ideas for international stuff. But then, you know, we love the us, and I mean, I was over there, Mike or Diem Sethi, Israel trees and, um, two British dudes who, by the way, were 24 hour, um, champions. I didn't even know 24 hour running was a thing until I met these two dudes. Um,

Robbie Britain. Do you know that name doesn't ring a bell with. Maybe it could be right. And I forget the other guy's name. And it sounds terrible because I sat and chat with these guys on the trail, but they they set the f Katya of support If Katie on the Jordan travel Very cool. Yeah, it was great, but I'm still need Yeah. What are some Just out of curiosity, what is some international trails that pique your interest? Well, I've always wanted to dio if something like that the GR trails going across Europe. I really fascinating there burly monsters when you look at just the the stats Three Camino has always been something I've just wanted to personally d'oh for a long time to be a fun family wanted. Yeah, exactly.

Then we could do. That's the thing, huh? Hiking in Europe is much more feasible. Hut system. Um and then I spent some time over in the heavily with Jenny when she did Amanda blam and climb there and check out the kombu. So, like, you know, maybe the m l A. I don't know, like it's it's interesting But then there's a lot of great stuff here in the U. S. I mean, I've still still want to do things like my backyard like Colorado Trail. It's a shorter one.

So that's where, like maybe mixing in some shorter's settle stout, though. Oh yeah, definitely got about 90 Arizona Trail. I mean, I've always had my eyes on that because I remember the first time Backpacker wrote about it, and I was like, Wow, it wasn't even completed then and it just sounded really cool. So there's a lot of cool things like that right? Could do before I do something. There's someone out there trying to set a net. Katie On the years and trail. Right now it seems early he's got he's got actually with the snow in the city. Yeah,

yeah, on the North Rim is pretty cold with some snow on it. Thio he is, I want to say approaching the Magi on rim soon was I started south. He started from the South Guy named Legend who's been on this podcast before, and, uh, I think he's on Day 10 right now, and he's got the overall. He's doing it self supporting. He has the overall record inside, Apparently, right now. Night? Yeah, I hope you know that.

So, yeah, lots of lots of things on the list. And most like when everybody asked me from the ultra running or running side. Like what race is who you want to like. The thing that gets me psyched about training for this stuff. And also just mentally to go back to, like, those really tough places that you gotta go. It's the thru hiking, adventure, speed, record type stuff that really challenges things. I challenge you. Yeah, that's your limits.

Has something like a carrot out there of a record or something as a benchmark, but still something that creates Maur adventure than just the race. And there's nothing wrong with racing. I just did it for so many years. Yeah, I'm kind of new challenge. Exactly. That's where and having kids is plenty. I e do you want to talk about advance? Yeah. I'm always very impressed by people that are able to be parents and our

own. Oh, speaking of kids, we have, like, one other baby, but, um, I can go run and pick him up and come back. Okay,

if It's not bounce guy. I don't want to be selfish. Jenny can come one thing, okay? Okay. Oh, yeah, Yeah. Comment on your question. Okay, general comment. Because that would be good to have her taken the night. Yeah, just I'm always very impressed by people that are able to still maintain, like, an adventurous, outdoorsy lifestyle.

While being parents like I've had all my friends are. A lot of my friends are having kids, and I just I'm very cognizant of how difficult being a parent is to be able to, you know, still infuse your lifestyle into their lives and not just be revolving around naps. And every small thing that goes with it, you just talk a little bit about Maybe the sacrifices were the difficulty of being able to achieve those two things at the same time.

I think the e t really set us up with the sleep deprivation training, but yeah, I think before we had kids, Do we have these ideas? Iot. We'll keep doing everything will take around P C. T. Walk through all this stuff, but it does. It actually does slow you down a lot. And it's not, um it's It's just a adjustment, like everything in life, you know? Um, so we we do take him hiking, but it's kind of more like day hugs.

And then we do often, Um, you know, we don't like stick to a rigorous routine or schedule home, but but we try Thio, Um, but they're just adaptable if you start them young and you just throw him in the back of the bike or you like I mean, I was training for a marathon, like, six months after I had Raven. I ran my first marathon and she would do a three mile. She would do three hour Rosen's with us. She would just, like crush like, 19 mile training rounds, like just as a little baby. Um,

Houston. Sheila. I want to go in

the jogger like she's psyched on. She loves like we go to races. She's just to be clear, she wasn't running. She was. It's things like she did 20. To be clear. Break Scott's F. K T O City

ran a marathon six months after having Raven.

I did. That's insane. Is that normal? I don't even know it like I feel like in our group of supermodels and some of us looks like, Oh, I mean, it was so slow. So I don't think it's a big deal, but I think it's probably a big deal. But at New York, I did New York, Um, eight months after I had our 2nd 1 and there's a little there was like a tent, a medical tent and there's women pumping. And I was like, Okay, well,

I mean, I was from the job. You could drop me well, at the supermom, you could drop you. I dropped off my milk and then they bring it to the finish line. That's incredible. And blossom

people

in the world Wait, remember Rim when she was three months old, and and that's

a little out there, because that's something people like. Whoa, you're gonna

like, you know, you could get some people. Yeah,

but helicopter It's true. If something happened

at the bottom of

the canyon, you know, you could maybe get helicopter up, then we'd be those people that say that high spots we did a crossing with Actually the vice president of the Navajo Nation, Jonathan knows who's actually a president now. Supercool duties action, Ultra honor Hiker again. He's such an amazing individual. We have this opportunity to hike the Grand Canyon with him and the way it happened. And we were doing some nonprofit work with a Grand Canyon Land trust, and it was like, What a perfect way. Like we're gonna hike with Raven over. And they were just like cycling. Let's do it. And so we hiked from the South room to the North Room and met him. And then we did our nonprofit step on the North Rim.

So it was really cool. And so at a young age, Ravens been doing all this, and I think my recommendation, like Jenny's, is you just gotta start him young. And yes, you're you're gonna be you're gonna have to just two a different thing, like there are some variables where you just can't control. Very adaptable, though. Yeah, yeah,

kids are in that easy to teach. I mean, she's been sitting here on your couch for an hour. She's like hand motion, mom, but because she's like going to hot gas and doing interviews with like, she's disgrace

has traveled around with us, and that's the thing. So, you know, while we can't do everything like, yes, wilderness. Backcountry hikes now are tougher with two. Um, it's amazing what kids will do, and you just have to start them young. And you don't feel like you just beat them in tow like submission of like what? You're gonna do this and you're gonna like you got to keep it fun, sir, My recommendation is yes, starting young, but keep it fun and like she loves it like she loves being out there.

And, yeah, there's the days too. Or is she looking not into it? And you just have to work around that. But that's the biggest thing. Is toe not be so rigid and so worried about things? Because actually, kids air pretty adaptable and yeah, so we'll find out more as we go along where we don't have all the answers. And I don't claim to be experts, but we do feel like that. It's just gonna You gotta be out there doing things and get him used to it, and hopefully they'll be appreciated. I mean, Raven already, like, just loves to ride her bike, and kids naturally love to be outside exercising and doing things, and I just want her to do a bunch of different things.

We are. You guys gonna have kids? Something

with a scientist like today? Uh, you know, but people have tried to nay Sayer ability. It's certainly on the table. I'm not. There's a lot of things I want to do before. Yeah, because certainly

not off the table or it's certainly on the water on the table. You heard it. Here. You say it's on

the table. I'm I'm uncommitted.

At this point, I

have been jokingly saying that you and Jenna are going to get pregnant for years now.

And you're like, No, no, no, no, no.

Really breaking news. I can't wait. You guys ar e on the younger side. Jenny and I wait. And that's where, like, it's been great where we are in our life, like it's awesome to go hiking with Raven and have her like, look at things was like, Whoa, I didn't actually see that were like, Whoa, you do have eagle eyes Like I thought I was good at seeing and tracking animals. I'm like, Wow, she just surprise me like that is what's so cool and like when she gets that moment of like Oh, I want to go the summit like we gotta get this like that's those times.

But you know, there's a lot of things like Jenny and I like. We don't get to go for trail runs very often together. And there's there's things we miss. So I recommend that you go out there and not do everything you want to do. But check a lot of regrets.

I'm working on it. I know you're doing

it. You've heard of that question

completely. Job single. Say that you're ready to mingle. Oh, that's an advertised E. I mean, you should go to the trek, Their instagram feed. There's nothing but hot ambassador t o get with some of the girls in the track. How Zack it like models to be his ambassador.

Jenny was like, Whoa! Through hikers. Do not look like this on the

no, no, no, I didn't. I didn't. I just like they've really upped their game.

I think it's great for women and men to see like, Hey, it's not just these gnarly Lake Dirtbag tires. That's what I'd let think. That's been cool about the sport of thru hiking and hiking in general. Some, it's a really wide variety, which, you know, I love the characters. Like I 100% I love these centric CE, but it's cool that people are feeling and they're they're meeting. People are meeting their significant others on trail and in some cases, getting married and having Children.

It I know people that have conceived I've met him, but a friend I haven't met

someone have been able to keep up. All right, that's a challenge. Ladies. You can hike it. Job is speed and, uh, just I mean,

what's your role? You somebody cool enough That would make you want to slow down.

Who's he? That's a problem for May. Yeah, that's the problem. I haven't been able to stop.

I can't stop Once I started stings. I

have a lot of ambition to keep to keep this thing rolling. And yeah, it's just that I was involved in a committed relationship, and it was it was very difficult to keep it fair. I should say so when beer beer gets cut and the hair gets cut them, we know something's changed. Yeah, days they're happening. A butterfly was taking a quick break to bring you a word from our sponsor Green belly. In case you're not already familiar, Green Belly is the maker of one of the most complete nutrition bars on the market. Their meals contain 650 calories each, more than two and 1/2 times the energy of a cliff bar. Think of them like cereal bars on steroids because green belly meals are ready to eat, requiring no Stover cleanup, they make the perfect midday trail mill. Their meals are super light and made with wholesome ingredients with flavors like peanut apricot,

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for you, our wonderful backpacker radio listeners. You get an exclusive 10% discount site wide at Green Billy. Just use Code Trek 10 at checkout at their website Green belly dot CEO don't wait. This deal is only good for a limited time back to the show. You had an interesting tidbit in the initial part of your answer was that you got used to sleep deprivation in the f k t time. I'm curious if what other elements of the f k t tempt prepared you for marriage or if anything,

well, we were married before

are not married and having a kid. I'm sorry I misspoke, and I was thinking one thing and looking for anything.

I mean, I guess just the given take. You know, there's so much because he is having a lot of people think, Oh, ultimate, you're so selfish. Whatever. But Scott is like such a giver. Such a nurturer. He's such he does all the cooking. He takes up the recycling. He does all the dishes. He's like super domestic. Wait, I got a bunch more way. Um,

no. And so I think it was This part of the reason why I wanted to stay the whole time was to give back, just like switch roles, a little bit to cook. I mean, and people were literally mortify doing who you're doing the cooking because I never cook. I could, like, burn water. And I know that he has

literally evaporated in it like, yeah,

yeah. So, um, I think we just learned a little more, given a little more give and take a little more bounce. And I, um, definitely set

us up for the baby's, uh and that's where to. I definitely like. Now I'm taking care of the kids. Will Jenny runs race like, because I definitely have a long tab to pay back. And it's, but it's fun because I don't want to race a ton right now. I've done that for so many years. So it's been nice because yet Jenny gets Thio going do these races. And so I think that's what has to happen and those who are listening or like Ash. I wantto do that, Um, it does take sacrifice on Boldin's and you have to know like, Oh, yeah, a za lines a fair line because it can't all be about one person race.

Sometimes you know, I have buddies were their significant others air fine and same with women who are you know, they're the ones who go to the races more their way into the competition and won. Spouse stays home with the kids. All that like, they're fine just being moms or dads or And that's not the case with Jenny. So a lot of significant others or friends or whatever relationship you have to be understanding of that, like people have, they want to do things to it. Can't just be all one sided. So that would be our recommendation. Like making like kids and relationship work and still do fun. Big adventures like Jenny's gonna go climbing in Yosemite next month and they're just like, you gotta have

a shadow to me. He's the one who first told me You gotta follow Riel hiking. Funny story.

The weekend I met Timmy was the exact same weekend I met Zach. Oh,

story 15. Generally, I remember looking up, I was like, Okay, I'll see what? This isn't like. You're the post that I look, that I happened to look at. It was like some giant plate of like me like thing. I think

the first time I met Jenny, she mentioned something about you. She's like

job. Oh, with his huge plates of food. It's just so funny watching him eat. Yeah,

paying money to go to the video that you've taken a step back and you're not wrong. I've taken I was with you. I'm very sorry I disappoint myself and my family.

Bring it back. I

honestly don't think I can. At least publicly I do it alone in a dark room. Um,

I'm gonna go pick up. Yeah, but then you But isn't there more?

There's more. There's more show. There's Let's let's let's let Ugo And then we'll hopefully

still be gone When you get

when you come back and keep it running all day long Never stop. Yeah, Uh, Scott. So I'm curious you've been in competitive athletics for a very long time and very competitive at those competitive at winning a lot of your races. How is it heavy? Do anything you know, on a big stage or to a very high level level competitive degrees since theeighty f k t. I actually haven't Yeah, that's what I mean. Ah, high level next level would be having kids. Yeah, and writing a book. I mean, that was that was something that was on Jenny and my plate for two years and talk about tough like there's so many times when Jenny and I really just put us back on the trail like, let us suffer some more on the trail and like we're back on the trail,

That was way easier than writing. So, um, that was hard because again, writing a second book, it's colic after your first through hike like you're like, Okay, that was cool. Like Europe that magic again. Exactly like can you do it again? And my editor was like, Yeah, I was surprised you wanted to write because again, I'm not a writer by trade that is, on my profession, passionate and that compassionate.

Exactly. And that's what I want. Inject. I want inspire people to get out there on the train. When we wrote North, it wasn't this book that was just a chronicle of my career, like my first book, where it was more of a memoir. My first book, Where's This? Was about the appellation trail and the Through Hike and the Speed Hike and just, um, what we wanted Thio to tell that story and have people like, energized to, like, go and find their challenge,

whatever that might be. So it took a lot. Has Jenny and I poured a lot into It was three drafts. It was like all nighters, like again. We just felt like we were back on the trail. Timmy was helping us with our last edit, and it was like, just grueling. Like I told Jenny at one time, it's good enough like and that's what how much we poured our heart and soul. And that's like, Give it up in Vermont, though. Yeah, that's why it was like,

No way. And that's what you have been on playing amidst, you know, sponsor commitments and speaking and doing all the things I love to do. So, yeah, it's been tough. Like I thought I was gonna be out on Trail Road doing something big this past year, but with everything came along as a surprise, like Jenny and I thought, Oh, we've tried to have kids and it's taken like four years and Raven finally, um, we ableto have her, but we didn't think we'd have another quick really. So,

um, that through a little bit of ah, different, I guess, uh, atmosphere in tow into things. So and where I'm at, like, some days, I'm like I'd be cool to do another 24 hour event like sometimes that's exciting, like but another 100 mile race, maybe doing them for fun. But this virus competitively. And let's face it, I'm old compared to use you guys. So it's,

um I'm less elite athletes. I'm a 45 s o people by nine years. I mean, do I look timeless? But But it's It's tough. It's the vegan diet. I mean,

I'm a single and ready to mingle, so go ahead.

I had, like, three or 45 or six years, I think, Yeah, for me, it's and that's I think I'm at the point in my career where I have most people would say, like I'm retired, right? But I'm trying to find things that are different, and I'm not. I'm not gonna Lines definitely had my best 100 mile race in years, for sure, not retired from living exactly. And that's that's what I think. This whole speed hike adventure run ICOM adventure runs, too,

because sometimes I just I got inspired reading old books, and there's some amazing books from the seventies and eighties. Um, there were these ultra owners that they called him. Adventure runs back then. And I love guys like James Shapiro. When he would talk about just getting dropped off, he lived in New York City of Manhattan somewhere in Brooklyn, and he would get dropped off by a bus like outside the city. And then he would just find his way back into town, running through different communities and streets. And that's what I think. You know, Adventure. Taking running is all about it, Just like going out and finding out what happening around the world around you are maybe somewhere no far flung and exciting.

You know, that's an amazing scenery, but that's what gets me pumped. You know, these days, like putting yourself in and, you know, a challenging and unlike just some kind of environment that's not your normal environment. Exact getting yourself different parameters for, uh, what what would be experiencing on a day to day or hour hour basis. That's I think, Aiken

part part of like

What I Do is just trying t o. I don't know, just push myself, but not wanting to be just doing the everyday thing that people are doing in their nine to fives, and I just I don't know, I I don't I don't want to let

go of that because it's it's that much fun. The adventure Is that

that fun for me? That I I can't let go of it in our junkie dude,

I am. I am a

junkie with it because it's just it's it makes me happy. Yeah, and that there's nothing wrong with that, I think, and that's where it's like finding that balance, cause something like, Well, I can't do it Job is doing her I can't do it, you know, and Scott's doing out there, but you can do your own version of it. And that's what I love about two people can put their own tweet like you can go out. You can go up for three days, for instance, and have an adventure. But ideally, yeah, you wanna have the week, the two week thing.

But to be fair, before I was

doing it, there was the me that could have never understood doing it at all,

and to begin with so that there was a time

in your life where sure you couldn't have fathomed that either. And at that point in time, you just quote unquote we're just We're just normal people that just didn't know about these things. And then you just we came to the dark side, we

can to the dark side

and and we were junkies for something to the effect where we made it a priority. Definitely. I think that's what it's like finding in a priority ca mean different things for everybody. And I think not to knock the 9 to 5 because I've got things that are elements of a 9 to 5 and something bad to say really. But I totally get it like, Why do people want to go on another through hike after doing like you see these people Jenny and I being on the PCT, we try to make a point of, like lining our trips on the PCT when other through hikers are gonna be out there because we love like connecting with the committee and finding out like what makes these people tick. And it's so interesting because when people leave the trail after they're through, it's like I need more of that like I'm not normal at I can't fit into society, and I get a little worried when people like that, like your your normal where you can reinsert yourself back in. But, um, you see the people where it's like, really hard to get back in the I feel for that and then don't give it. There are times when I'm in between that last long hike that I had done.

And when the next one's coming around, there's those periods of depression that still exist. Definitely sure you can find those in between training blocks or races. And even between NATO and the ass ticket, it's been a while, like a lot of people that what's the next big thing like after I finished the details like give us more of that, That was also, like, you know, loved following and as much of me like I'm like, Well, I'm not a performer That wasn't meant to be a performance that, but it ended up kind of being that where people were so attached, like it would've been cool, give people that experience, But then again,

like, Whoa, is it something different for me now? Because of that? I might doing it for the wrong reasons, and quite frankly, I wasn't ready mentally, like I went to some places where they weren't easy to go to like for me was like I'm just like, Well, like luckily, I got out of those and I still love to be out there again because there were times where yeah, I got off the train like like it was so do That was so awesome. But it was so Lake Max had flashbacks. I'd kind of like a PTSD. I know you can't say that.

You don't

have to say that in the context of of war, you don't they? There's everyone has versions of it and it's totally allowed. You like to say I had PTSD from times a veteran, so he

gets, you know, I mean,

anyways, yeah, going through, Yeah, going through that. But it is hard like to be like, Do I want to go back and do that? Like, what's wrong with just going for a long hike for 20 miles and not having the pressure of a record or like really pushing oneself out? But I do feel like there's value in pushing oneself, including myself, out into that periphery, out to the edge where it is. It is tenuous. It is a little scary. It is maybe somebody. We don't want to come into contact with a lot. But, um, there's also times when it's nice to just can't step back. I imagine that desire comes in waves sometimes,

like it's

not like you can you can have the desire at 150% at all times. No, just doesn't exist. No enemy. It's nothing. When I was joking about the junkie like, I do have friends where that's like, you know, the next race like they're like in it and they like burnout. You see thru hikers in the same vein. I'm sure where they like. They're so all about it, Um and then they're not. And it is like it does feed and fuel. You like it? It's really easy. Like that gets swept up in that.

And, yeah, it is hard to find that balance point because you gotta have that. And that's where I've been at my career right now. How do I stay by your kids air a big roll, and like like going through a wave where definitely you're like All right, well, I don't need to be doing that because they definitely keep me. Um I won't say tether but they keep me tethered to reality in the way of like, not that the 9 to 5 of like, Oh, you gotta grind out, you know, as I for years I've tried to avoid, So I'm working for myself, right?

The perils of them are in the middle of trying to find, like, Okay, how do I make this all work? And, um but you have to, like, find out that things are most important to you, but there are things that do bring us down to reality of like, oh, can't just take off and do another hike. But we we we savor the times that we can get out. And I think that's where I have friends, where they get that weak there. They get that long weekend where they get to go out, and and I think that's that's magic,

too. And everyone has to find there their challenge. That's gonna keep them fired up to do that 9 to 5, or to take care of family or to do whatever cause I mean, let's face it. Most people like we have these things in life, but we do have those release points. I mean, I think that right now it's just Zach Scott and myself. And Zack turned, uh, he left a 9 to 5 life and turned a passion of his into his his career. And you did the same and

I did the same and it's kind of I mean, we all kind

of did it in different ways, but we were all sitting here talking about kind of the same thing. You guys are the smarter ones because you're able to move more

than I am Fine. I'm still tethered to the PCT

couple years. We're about to go on some really cool hike this year, too. Would you have that work for you? It is true. That's amazing to show. That's and that's to their own horns. Tooting my horn

in your lungs. Everybody's to some deals. I'm single

and ready. Oh, went from acknowledging that I might have kids, too. All right, Uh, curious. What sports do you plan on pushing your kids into

pushing, pushing? So they're hoping we'll, as a parent, you obviously

have. Sounds like a terrible father. Well, it's funny. That was a Freudian slip. It it's true because a lot of and I would get even I get it sometimes. The statement. I don't post a lot of stuff about Raven on my social media, but I do sometimes because sometimes I'm just like, whoa like that. Where did that come from that. But she's got her own handle with jerks on the run and she shows, That's I love. I love following that. Yeah, I think because it's fun because people do really like Whoa there and you see a lot of stuff on social media these days. But it's cool when parents do see like Okay,

you can enjoy things that you thought were gone for a while, and you have to like, wait until they're, you know, 12 or 13 or 18 or whatever it is it is. It is one of the things that scares me about you, and so it's fine. Like what she does with jerks on the Rennes is cool in that sense. But I do get some. It's interesting and I get you know, some flak from being like, Well, you look like your your daughter doesn't want to do that happened. I did 1/2 mile and I put Raven mostly on my shoulders, but she's like people would comment like she looks like she's like, not enjoying herself.

And so I never wanna push my push my kids into anything. Um, I just want to provide different avenues, like for them to explorer, sport outdoors in different fashion. And I want them to do our I want them to yeo music, whatever. Like I want them to expose it, expose them in a bunch of different things, and if they pick up something great, I actually don't want them to compete much because my life, you know, talk about something that will change. Ah, parents. Life is if you're bringing them toe all the competition is very,

very far because I want her to be I want Raven and our boy Evergreen to be well, he is not an age where he can ski yet, but, um, to ski, to bike, to run tau, hike whatever and do a little bit of everything. But I do get a little worried like sometimes I see Raven like on the pump track, where she just like I want to do that, go off the job was like and and and aspires like pushing her. This is pre collections, writing a pedal bike at two and 1/2. And I'm just like some of these things, like Okay, yes,

like if you get your kids out doing things that you love and you do it in a way that makes it fine. Like she's just always wanted to get out on our bike like we go for walks out on her balance bike and then all of a sudden she's like, I want to get pedals, Papa, I want like and kids. This naturally will want to do things And I watch an interesting documentary recently called In Search of Greatness. And it was cool because they interviewed guys like Gretzky and Jordan, all these legends in various sports and like what? How? What was their upbringing like and and what was the atmosphere and a lot of them. They actually played a lot of different sports. They they wanted to be MLB players in addition to being in the band shell, and so and they had passion. So I think it's pretty cool. So I think parents should give it a mercy, give them all things,

and I think nowadays there's so much specialization with kids like okay, You're gonna in order to be in your travel league, you gotta You gotta be at this level when you're sick. So you better you better have things. And yeah, I don't know in certain sports yet, like gymnastics. Olympic champions Air 14 15 and 16. So we just got started, like, five. So you've got to start young. But I think with the outdoor sports like Jenny loves declined, that's her passion. First passion. She loves to run and hike and do everything else,

but declining is your thing. And, like Raven already is, she loves Gunjan because she sees her mama go in the gym climbing, and she's like, I want to go up on those rocks and she's just at that age were like, the sky's the limit, and it's cool to see that, but I don't ever want it to feel like again pushing or being like, Okay, you're gonna run 10 miles today. Yeah, I mean, you just got some great endurance. Genetics, like it seems highly probable that she'll be very gifted at some endurance sport.

Potentially. And by the way, the piano. Yeah, right. Like it's a kind of crazy liquor and that's where, like some people, they there's a stair heart, are nasty at our best, for instance, are certain, like athletes might actually be in the wrong sport like they may have getting there. So much measurement, so much analytical information. And um, that's the thing that kind of scares me like we've put these barriers.

Where's Gretzky? With typos? Like, If I was to go through combine Week, I would never make it cause he's like I couldn't bench. Yeah, I need to bench. I couldn't do all these things like my 40 wasn't as fast and it's kind of interesting, like some of our best athletes. And it was really interesting cause they looked at the artistry of sport in the psychology of sport. And so, with kids, I think it's just good to expose them to bunch things and just make sure they're outside like playing like as a kid. I grew up out in the woods and we're out making forts and building trails like because there wasn't anything else to Dio. We live five miles from town. Uhm,

it was hard to get into town. My parents were bringing me into my friends, how friends houses. So I grew up just entertaining myself with the woods on a place that you like, thrown the baseball around, shoveling off the pond and playing his friend growing up five miles in town. And so friends Well, yeah, we're talking on highways where, like, people, five months isn't far biking, right? Like I think about it now, why wasn't biking into town? But it was a high with two lane highways with,

like, you know, semi trucks wouldn't let me, like, quote unquote. Let me just go off and write by whatever I wanted whenever I wanted when I was a kid, like I'm Yeah, I thought these were like, Yeah, semis were driving. People didn't bike on the negligible parrot on that street. But five miles isn't far when you think about it, but it was far enough as a kid that Yeah, it was like while the world around me, like there's one kid who's five years younger than me use my brother and sister's age. But I grew up like playing with my brother and sister like I had to get my brother at 345 years old,

playing baseball because he couldn't face like, hard to like. So teach you today. I think the key thing is like just having kids being out playing time. And they're so much pressure toe sit in front of computers and screens and video games, and we have those pressures to in the eighties. I just didn't get that chance because my parents were buying your Atari. Yeah, exactly on the entire e. Do you think that a competitive nature is MME. Or nature or nurture? I think it's both, like it helps to have some jeans, and it depends on what sport or competitiveness we're talking about if you want to be. If you want to be a top level athlete, let's say and certain sports,

there's no doubt you have to have some talent, or at least a baseline or something that, you know, gets you in a decent same thing. Like I'm not a perfect build for a distance. Running like I would never be the candidate for my the best Marathon are Certainly Why is that just body size like you don't see a lot of six to guys like most of it, like there's certain. So they're certain variables that are best But you see people too long is not always that great. Exactly like I mean in body size, like you're better off being smaller, so you don't produces much heat for sweating. And that's one thing. But at the same time, there are, like some. You see the occasional like six foot.

What's the guy's name? Zach Miller. Is that exactly? Zack's? A little bit sure? Yeah, he started. It was like kind of like either. Exactly like there's no what you running, Thankfully, doesn't have a perfect bill because it's so much. She kept up some physical ability, for sure. But a lot of it is mental. Like How much do you want to hurt? Right?

You know how long he's the other side of the two long He's the He's like he's a little bit short. Little muscle hamsters. Yeah, exactly. And that's where that's what I love about it. So, um, I guess to answer your question, Yeah, it's one of those things where I think it really depends on the sport. There's some sports are competitive fields where you better have some of that if you want to be Olympic caliber. But thing I love about running and ultra distance and endurance is that it is so mental. The longer you go to, you've gotta be able to eat and drink. There's a lot of other variables, and it levels the playing field where that person and this is what I love about.

You see some guys and gals like, How do they run 50 miles or 100 miles? How does that person speed? It's because the individual, like like whatever their nature or nurture, like one can make up for the lack of the other potential. So, like what? Look like whatever you're lacking in one, somebody else is the exact opposite of that and can still be on the same level. Definitely, that's right. That's my love. And so I I'm, um, or nurture because I feel like the reason I got to be good at Ultra endurance was because I had a mother who had multiple sclerosis,

and I did grow up really quick at a very young age. And so I mean, not enough job. It can really this to being a veteran, and so what you see, at least in my sport, you see the people who have been former addicts. You see the veterans, you see the moms who like childbirth alone and just going through, like that kind of physical and mental challenge. It makes for great ultra runners and ultra endurance athletes are if you want to call us freaks. But there's people where they just have the right connections because of learned experiences. And so I think experiences will trump, uh, physical ability when it comes down to like, How bad do you want it?

Like some of those people who know how to get out a really tough, difficult situation because of life experiences that whatever, um, sometimes sport an athletic endeavors or experiences don't make up for that like it helps to have something. So it's interesting that you say, because I've always noticed, I feel like, at least on the 80 older people are in a way at an advantage because they've had more life experience. They have endured more hardship, even though obviously physically people the older generations on the eight year retirees, so physically they're at a disadvantage compared to like 20 somethings that are out there. But I think you know a lot of the 20 somethings that are on the trail are soft. They haven't really encountered anything too difficult in their life. So when they go through three days of rain, they don't have that contrast to compare that to. You know,

I've been through something that's difficult in my life, whereas somebody that's 65 years old, there's almost 100% chance they've endured something 10 times harder than that. So while they're not physically equipped to handle something like that, mentally, they're much more sharp. Exactly. That's what I love about. I love seeing those young bucks on does out there on the trail who don't have that. And I see that in ultra running or what. But I love that people get that experience because that's the my buddy. Timmy O'Neill causes this elective challenge like they chose to be out on the 80 and they chose to put themselves in that arena. And that's what's so cool about it, because the 18 when people say like it changed me or ah, through hike or even say a section hike changes them. It's because now they like they they're chalking up experiences that really they change themselves Exactly.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, the trail change. It's it's It's the platform. But like you still did the work. The trail may have been like the canvas with which you painted upon, but like you still had the pain yet the trails, the gauntlet. You chose to go through it. Yeah, that's what's so cool. I mean, and I love that I love that about ultra endurance through hiking, whatever. Yes,

you can have wisdom, but it's good that young people I love singing hunky and that's what you know. I know the 80 older community. We have been talking about Theo. Okay? No one has. No, it's great. It's knowing there's a drinking game. I should say that through hiking in general. Maybe then But there's, you know, the older guard is kind of like, Oh, those young bucks, they just you know,

they're out there. They're partying. They're like because But, like, what cooler way for people to toe learn about themselves to like, you know, become these wiser human beings. Because I feel like you do after something that big, so monumental, so challenging, you come out of their wives, like why would we discourage that? Like, yeah, OK, there's a little bit

on the trip and the change occurs during like, it's amazing it happened to me on my

first hike was the first half of the trail. I partied, partied a lot, and by the time I got like northern Virginia and like, um you know, um, here's your chance to say, Pennsylvania, uh, Pennsylvania. I blacked out because I'm on no sleep,

but no. Really? Like by the time I got the Pennsylvania,

I started having these, like, dialogues and myself about like, like, eyes just parting Gonna continue our my gonna, um I'm gonna finish the trail. Am I gonna like Something's gotta change. I gotta take a trim a little more seriously and put the work in and do the miles to in order to get to Catania before you know, Fall Winner. What? And I made the change and I had a complete 1 80 from the first half of the trail to the second half of the trail, and I barely drank on the second half of the trail. I kept putting my nose to the grindstone and height with this. Um, I think it's a 22 year vet in the, um in the Army He was a sergeant major. He had just retired,

and I hide him almost exclusively for the second half of the of the hike. And we became really close, and and I got, you know, I was real no regimented with my height because of him, and it changed

me to change in it. And it

that spider doubt tow the rest of my hiking career. I started taking the hike a little

bit more seriously. Not too seriously. Yeah, like, you know? Yeah, you're gonna finish.

You gotta put the work in. And so So it I watched it happen during the 80 during the 80. It was you know, you're someone that does well with a little bit of structure because I know for sure. Yeah, absolutely. That's yeah, that's what's cool about the trial. So I say we need more like I I wish that I had taken the time in my like post college or post. Like, I think it's one of the greatest gifts. Like I'm saving up for a raven and evergreen. They're gonna do through hikes if they want, like there'll be a president, they'll be a budget. There won't be any college money, but it's like,

you know, go on a through hike, are going ultimate education around the world trip Feel like travel is another thing. That could be really, ah, great experience to cause I can teach you a lot about things in life but travel and doing something as simple as putting on a backpack and hiking from one point to another. It's It's really transformative. So I'm all about like young people being out there and again. Let's where? Okay, yeah, maybe there's some partying going on. Maybe there's like some time that need to be like Sirte out, But let's get it school. Probably in many ways, not so many people can do it in their thirties forties or or unless they take that time off.

But and then you have the people on the other end like you mentioned a 20 year veteran like there are people that are doing it later, and I love that mix of P totally. It's it's really cool, you know, uh, not toe trying to plug up my friend's book. But Cindy Ross just wrote a new book called The World Is My Classroom or the World Is Our Classroom. rather, I forget the exact title. But she raised her Children with that. That perspective that, like school, wasn't the ultimate place where she was gonna have her kids learn. She took them out into the world onto the trail, hike the CD, tea with them.

I have to check that. They have been getting pack long I get when I get depressed around. I'm like, Oh, man, life is real freedom. I read books like my my good Friend force. Woodward has Dad. Doug Woodward wrote a book probably very similar to this. It's called them. You took the kids, wear all these crazy adventures around the world, a home school, them. But they would take him like to Peru, and people would look like what Rafield rafting trip last four rounds and stuff. They're amazing, like they went toe like a couple of want Ivy League schools like, you know, probably art schools.

And very exactly

what city Ross is. That's like solid to check out Cindy's back like again. That gives me kind of hoping I'm like a man. Life is so rough. You were in that tough years. Um, I think reading those books of giving me inspiration to be like, OK, we can do things and, like, how much do we push that envelope? But yeah, without giving. It's funny. My buddy Tommy Caldwell, who used, you know,

is a climber. We heard of him a little bit twice, being here in Colorado. We contain, and he's got two kids and his wife back. Um, it's what they're like. Sometimes we think your kids are exposing our kids too much outdoor cause. Like sometimes, like, we just want to be inside the way. That was their older kid. But like, I think, yeah, it's always interesting.

I'm like, OK, where is that? Like, Happy Medium of like Okay, yeah. You want them to be like dirt? Baby isn't like, always out in the woods. Yeah, buddies. We live on farms and they have their kids on farms and at a young age, and they're just like I mean, they look like they've been in the water and the dirt all day long, which they

are. And have you ever worn shoes? Exactly.

They're so tough that that's I think it's close up. Yeah, it's a matter of like finding those experiences and balancing him will you ranking order, difficulty running a 24 hour race, a t f k t and being that. Ooh, that's to let me answer. I, um I have to say, like on just a athletic or career definitely 8 80 I was like, There's just nothing else like when you comparison next 46 days and you know, it's just more of like it's, ah, epic journey, so to speak or adventure versus, like a one day race and like than raising kids like, I can't tell you completely because I'm in the thick of it now like I'm so early.

But if you if you're gonna say, like raising kids asses, people like it doesn't get easier, it's just different. Host of challenges. So something like that, like a 18 years, it is probably gonna be the hardest thing for sure, because there's so many different elements, and that's that's where when you do it through high IQ or an adventurer Ron or a speed record, it's the amount in the magnitude of things that could go wrong and the things that come together to make it happen. I'm in having kids is something where, yeah, I just hope we don't mess up too much. It was like I think there's gonna be plenty of messing up. I imagine.

I just I know every parent, just like we don't know. What the hell were you? Yeah, that's gonna say every parent I talk to says the exact same thing like my fucking hold. Hold ourselves our yourself to too much of Ah, you know, high standard. Because exactly, that's what's fun about it. To be part of your f k. T was screw

and shit up. Jenny was at that point,

the goats out there, like in a tap in his watcher, like when Speak on something like you gotta, like, stop. This is like it's kind of thing I like. Well, this is the way we wanted that same thing with kids. Like what? You live in a 600 square foot house where you Nothing. I'm like, Whoa, Miners lived in the same exact house because we found out in Boulder that there's a family of six living in our same house. And that's what's cool about you. You have your own way. Like for some people. Yeah,

they need bigger spaces or they need a certain lifestyle that's different. And I think you just have to find that happy medium. Um, and it's not It's Yeah, it's not for everybody. And I'm not saying like my way is the best way by any by any means, but yeah, just hike your own hike, Live your own life Said Well said, Yeah, uh, last question for you in So in J. P. D's book pursuit of endurance she wrote that, uh, you were a dork. Give any comment

to that? Let me let me

and let me She wrote that she wrote that past tense. You were Not that you are a dork. Like you wore a dork. Uh, I'll let you let you address that, and that was like of my early years and the reference your grand, but probably upbringing like high school. I have the quote he wore cut off blue jeans and his hair was in a ponytail. Well, that probably came from Jenny because that was the year. Those years, like she's like you were definitely not dating material, But the rest of it is I just never thought it was a boyfriend. Material period, way frosting material.

I were a puka next five

piercings in my ear. That's the thing. So, yeah, when I have the, like metal head hair and, like, hippie, like, get up. Yeah. So maybe it wasn't, but, um, definitely. And I was the kid, like I was a for sure in,

like, high school. I mean, I used to get called Pee wee. I was like, the nerd, the dork. And I kind of just maybe morphed into a less dorky er nerdier, less dorky in Jordan. A test. Did you know when you were this when you're in high school, Did you know that you would be doing anything like what you're doing now? No, not at all. And that's where I wanted to be a game warden, Believe it or not,

I mean, I was the smart like kid who studied because I had to, because you're my my my parents were just like, if you're gonna get anywhere, you study my mom went, was the only one in her family or my dad's side that went to college. And so they can That generation, that's kind of was still it. That's ah, not backwards thing. But that was like, you know, a lot of people have been exposed to college part of that. So it was expected, even though my dad wasn't like a straight a student and wasn't a great student, Um,

he's still put a high bar like you're going to study and you're gonna do this. And if you want to go to school, your pain for it. And so I had really no option. So yeah, I did study. I was maybe one of those guys that because I had to work for I wasn't super smart, like on an A C T. U S a t like my numbers are not there. But I worked hard for it, and that's what I had to do. But I was kind of dorky, but I wanted my alter ego is like I loved hunting and fishing, and I wanted to be a game word like on one hand, like wanted to go to college. But on the other hands, like it would be cool is just to be a game warden. But on the other hand, when we find out what it is that we are both good at and love like

a version of ourselves, we're like,

we're still ourself, like at the core. But like a version of ourselves comes out where we're confident and like you just come into your own in a way that people look at you differently and you just exude a different type of just aura. And I mean, that's where you are, man like like from

wherever. And then that's where I mean, I feel like I kind of feel

like I'm there to like I There was a time when, like, I just

didn't know who quite

I was and who really I wanted to be and what I wanted to do. But once I learned it like, man, it's just like it just sets up for you in a whole different way, and you can morph it, too. That's what I love about. It's not like, Oh, I'm really good at X, Y and Z here. I'm really good at X, and therefore I should just follow this little Patrick. You ca n't tweak it and oh yeah, what about your own in the evolve? It, which I think is,

is really cool about life. So that's where something like the Appalachian Trail are doing. Um, a large challenge gives you glimpses of what that might be, for instance, or maybe can help set things up for for that. But yet definitely for me, I never thought running would take me. I mean, I used to hate running, so I only did it shape. So that's why there's there's hope for people when you're out there, um, doing these things, you just you never know where things were gonna lead. I'm still learning things.

I think you are too good at finding you don't really figure it out. And that's what I love about life and just like that, right? You're just on that right like path. At least you're going in the right, ever actually becoming more or less less stork here cooler

more you like on a spectrum and on

the far left, you need more dorky and on the far right, you have more cool. And what is that? I mean, that's in breaking those two. And that's why I think when you talk about your people dealing with the Depression, where there's so much like mental health issues going on, and that's what I love about hitting the trail, doing something hard, like an ultra run or even a road like getting off the couch for the first time. Like hopefully those who are listening. That's what that's what the magic is like putting that piece together so that then the sky's the limit. Yes, that's what I like to hit people, you know, it's actually life.

Think this is poetic cause we're talking about how your goals evolve and the families back. So I think that's a That's a perfect segue way. Well, Scott and Jenny, honestly, thank you so much for your time. This has been amazing. I think that, honestly, this is the longest interview that we've done by margins. Thank you for being so generous. Family's good times. Jobless rate, a baby. That's so much fun. I was going to get a vasectomy right now,

so let people know the name of the book where they get it, all that good stuff. So the name of the book is north, and you can get in all formats. If you're somebody who you know, it's gonna be hitting the trail and needs that audiobook. Jenny and I actually read to you. So if you liked our voices, um, he'll be into that or or not? Um, certain in its e book, you name it. So few Get your books on your phone or whatever devices you're hitting the trail, you can do it. That frame.

And then it just came out in paperback this past week. So lighter weight version. So you can be, uh, be a little bit lighter on the trails. Have to lug that That hardback, I got it. And I really love that you guys both inject both of your perspectives in the book. I think it gives it, like a really well rounded, just full picture of what this endeavor took. So I really I didn't get chance to finish it. Admittedly, but what I read, I will write. You gotta at some point.

Yeah. I mean, I mean, I gotta learn to read first. And then I might

think my mom actually no

joke. I haven't had it. I haven't stopped since you sent me a copy, and I haven't had a chance to sit down and read it. But when I was home, I put it in front of my mother and she read the whole book. And every morning I cooked my mom When I'm home and she would sit there and sou chef for me. And when I was doing the actual cooking part, she would read your book out loud to me. No, no, you were joking about that. No, I'm serious. While you get books read Thio. That's hard. Parts of mama's boy single and ready to mingle E o I just get so whether you want to read it or not,

you can have it read to you. Not really. Uh, the book is north And you also where the author of Eden Run. Is that the war? That's correct. You run. I was inborn. He's one of the subjects of born,

actually.

How did that change your life? I want to talk about that briefly. Um, it started back in here. I know it's something that did bring ah whole another host in population to the forefront of, like, ultra running. And for me, it wasn't like all of a sudden my life was like, Oh, I've like a superstar, but it definitely it doesn't expose my career to a lot of people. And so I you know, I can't lie like more and more people knew about what I was doing with ultra running the size of it, and, uh, he's gonna do the most good thing.

And it also got me, though. Yeah, it also got me to write a book because we like, you know, this book's been reading, but you got to write your book and I put it off for so many years, right? Yeah. There's a lot of great things. Yeah, yeah. Writing books is something. That's where it was so great to have Jenny help me on this one and get her perspective to cause I don't want to be writing. Oh, this is what happened.

And then Jenny said this and that we actually are Editor was like, I think there's other ways we could do this, but I really felt like having the two voices. So it's nice if you get sick of my, you know, side of things. You get to hear Jenny's and she's a lot more funnier than I am. So no, I thought it played out beautifully. Yeah, e definitely encouraged, and I can't wait to finish it myself. I'm in my whole season of work. Things start Alo. Yeah, We'll give you too hard.

Even job off on his mind. Get for taking a quick break. Be right back to the trek propaganda portion of the show, and I do want to highlight a handful of articles here. I'm gonna fly through them, the first of which is titled Freedom and a little frustration sandal wearing through Hikers explain themselves, and this one is by Clay Bonnyman Evans. He's a longtime writer of ours, actually. He's a very interesting guy. I want to get him on the show. Further down the road, Hey profiles a handful of people who have used sandals on a through. Like, as you might have guessed from the title, he delves into both the pros and the cons.

It's a really interesting article for anyone who's interested in sandals or not. I think this is a very good read. The next one I want to get into is these. It's titled this story behind the Hiker yearbook. If you're a fan of the 80 or even the PCT, that is probably familiar to you, this one is written by bloodhound. It's a beautiful profile of the hiker yearbook and more so the man behind it, Matthew od Norman and like claim bloodhound is a longtime writer of ours, and he only ever put out home runs. Literally. All of the articles that has put out for us have been huge. Ah, he was the first person I saw to highlight the black relations story. Someone who we hope to get on the show later this year again. If you know anything about the hacker,

your book or not, this is going to be a excellent re and excellent read. And then quickly, just a pair of new trail profiles I wanna highlight. I'm actually curious to get your take if you're familiar with this 1st 1 here is the 170 mile co host row in New Hampshire. Ah, yeah. It's like, um, it's like the long trail version of the long trail in New Hampshire. Yeah, I know that people sometimes will do that, like cross country skiing and interest to believe. I've heard of people doing that. Yeah, Interesting.

I don't know too much about it other than what I've read in the article. And this one's right. Maybe I'm wrong about that also, by the way, it's possible again. I'm hanging on by three double struggling. Ah, this one's written by a new writer and a very experienced backpacker by the name of Effie Drew. I'm just gonna pull out one quick exit from the intro portion of this on, she writes. It's a remote and quiet, shorter through like that, less than a dozen people complete each year due to its youth in isolation. The Coast Trail guarantees a variety of conditions and terrain with frequent wildlife sightings. So just a little taste to get your curiosity piqued. And last of the articles I wantto highlight is by a former podcast guest,

Katie Gerber, one of the more popular shows. She was the guest on episode number 11 and she did a troll profile of the organ Desert Trail, a titled 750 miles across eastern Oregon. I'm not gonna go into an in depth with this because I hope to get Shira on the podcast sometimes. Yeah, who's the executive director of this trail? And she's just an all around Renaissance woman. Bad. And Katie and she, uh, Katie has a trail named Ashley. I'm sure she doesn't actually blinking. Yeah, sorry, Katie,

But like, didn't Katie and Shira and all good, like the organism travel, Katie and all Good did I don't think one other person, maybe I thought somebody else was that. I thought it was the two of them. I could be wrong. Others three. But anyways, sorry you did here. Nor there. Yeah. Ah, and to our newest segment, you might have to be aware of this one. Uh,

is the thru hiker of the week. I am aware of this one. And because I listened to your podcast attack, I actually walk and listen to your podcast. I like your podcast.

I'm saying it out loud.

I like your podcasts. Would you give it five

stars? I like in public,

like like

every one of people know,

but I'll say I'll give it five stars. Uh, I've said this enough times now, but I have to point out again that I created this segment in jest. I wanted to be like a funny thing. Like highlighting like the stupid things to Rikers do. And so far, none of the examples of the bin that this one is also on that course. This is a very deserving person. The Instagram handle is at p c. T. Underscore every team, probably very self descriptive she's becoming. She's attempting to become the first amputee to complete a strike of the Pacific Crest Trail. Uh, obviously a very inspiring story right there. Yeah,

she's got a story. And a recent post might not be recent by the time this comes out about hiking with her dad on the PCT and needing to get airlifted out. Um, we very wild experience in this year. This year, I don't know how close you've been tracking the snowfall in the Sierra. I've heard rumors that it's been a big snow here. It's almost the same as 2017. Yeah. So it was like, like the most we've had in, like, 30 plus years. Yeah, exactly. So,

yeah, it's gonna be interesting to say for this year, regardless of the outcome. Obviously. You know her traveling with Sochi. You're a badass, like for even attempted to take this on. So obviously we're rooting you rooting for you rooting you on. I reached out to her to ask her to record a short bit about her hike and her story. She kindly obliged, and

here it is. Hi, My name is Meghan, but on the trail, I'm known a Sochi, and I'm attempting to be the first amputee to through, like, the Pacific Crest Trail. So two of the questions that I get pretty frequently is what made you want to throw Ike and how did you lose your leg? So let's take it back to When I was 12 my dad started taking me on his section heights of the Appalachian Trail. And that's where you know, I really just fell in love with backpacking. And, you know, we continued doing these section hike, you know, well into my teens.

And I met a lot of other through hikers, and I just thought, I mean, oh, man, this is so awesome. And it became my dream to complete it through hike once I graduated from college, however, when I was 19 I was hit on my motorcycle and it resulted in the above knee amputation of my left leg. I was definitely in a pretty dark place for about a year and 1/2 falling my amputation, but I turned to sports as my rehabilitation, and, you know, I went out to Utah and I learned how to snowboard. You know, I'd never snowboarded before when I had to eggs.

But I learned how to snowboard and turns out the and I was actually kind of good at it. And I was ext asked to join a competitive team. So I moved out to Utah and started training for the Paralympics. And in 2014 I competed in snowboardcross at the Sochi, Russia Winter Paralympic Games. And that's where my name comes from. My trail name, That is, um I wanted something that it wasn't super cliche or, you know, super leg centric, but still, you know, highlighted something really cool that I've done with my life. So when my friend panda made the suggestion of Sochi, you know that just that seemed perfect.

Really? So in the summer, when I wasn't snowboarding, I started backpacking. I'd finally gotten to the point where you know, I I could walk for a longer amount of time. So, you know, backpacking seemed like the obvious choice. However, I'd get back from the trip and my little leg would just be destroyed. I mean, like, it would take a week to recover from a weekend trip. However, you know,

I took each of these as a learning experience, and you know. I figured out how to prevent injury, and a couple years ago I went on, You're one of the longest trips you and ended the, you know, the biggest miles as I had ever done as an amputee. And, you know, I got back to the car and I realized I wasn't injured and, you know, just kind of dawned on me. It's like, you know, hey, maybe maybe I could do it through,

like, you know, Starr started planning, and on March, the first I began my through like I've been out here for about two months now, and I've walked about 570 miles. I started out a little bit slower than most, doing about eight miles a day, and now I'm doing about 15. You know, I even did a 19 mile day, which, you know, I've never even walked that far when I had two legs. So, you know,

it's it's really cool what I've been able to accomplish. But there's also been a lot of challenges that most people don't have to deal with, you know, for instance, when we got into some of the really hot desert sections, you're started to sweat a lot and my prosthetic is held on by friction. I have, ah, silicone sleeve that I wear on my residual em. And you know, when that gets sweaty, it doesn't hold my leg off as well. So, you know, I've had to deal a lot with your having to take it off and dry it off, and you and then put it back on.

Another huge challenge has been my, uh, knee has overheated and in some really hot sections with a lot of downhill, I have to carry an extra leader of water to cool my leg down. So, as you know, it starts to, uh, like, behave really weirdly, and sometimes it will just randomly collapse, you know? And I mean, that's really scary. So, you know,

my solution was to carry a leader of leg water and ah, you know, when it starts acting weird, you know, I pour a little bit of water on it and it cools it down, and, you know, then I go on my way. But, I mean, nobody would two legs has to deal with that, But, I mean, in general, it's been a very positive and rewarding experience. even if I do have,

you know, some weird challenges. You know, it's it's still just been an incredible journey. So you just want to say thank you to my sponsor. Wiggle your toes and to the people you all over the world who have been so supportive in encouraging I mean, honestly, you know, that has been really helpful through some of these challenging sections of the trail. So, you know. Thank you. So

thank you so much for sharing your story with us. You are a bona fide badass and an inspiration. And be sure to check out the show notes where I will include a link to her instagram handle. This has been a long show. We're gonna go to the last little bit here, social shots. Tell me, where do people find you? You confined me, um, in Saint Leu. A to quote ST lunatics and Nellie. Now you can find me at on instagram at I on the same doing like at the real hiking, biking,

real liking, biking and re electing booking

dot com and the real hiking biking. I I don't know, Scott and Jenny's handles offhand, but I will most definitely include in the show. Notes look for the show notes because they are

active on Sure it's

on the run. Is the family okay? Um, Scott Zagat's Gadzuric. Yeah, and Jenny's might be, I think even Jenny Jurich. Uh, Jenny Jurich. I can't find Jenny drinks,

all right, but yet, but she uses

the jerks on the run. I think almost exclusively we are at backpacker radio on Instagram at Backpacker Pod on twitter facebook dot com slash backpacker radio. You can follow me personally at Z R. Davis on both instagram and Twitter and

go check out trail

correspondents. We're now officially on the trail with those episodes. This is really awesome season. So

go check it out. Hey, Zach. Thanks

for having me. I've really appreciated being

a co host

on the backpacker radio podcast. Uh, yeah. We're gonna do a lot more this tomorrow. Although you're being a different chair tomorrow, both figuratively and literally left my stains on this one.

Zak's mom's house, By the way, Thanks

for listening and happy. I can give a sign off. No,

but you

know, here's your sign of Tell me which Frank Reynolds quote you'd like me to use. Um maybe go with like I got nightcrawlers. One. What? That's a really good idea. Yeah, go with nightcrawlers.

I miss nightcrawlers and clean like e. I don't know, Charlie. What is Nightcrawler? It's a game where they crawl around and nine the night. Like I said that. Yeah, well, that's what it is is nothing Private Frank Justice. Look, I like that game. Little stop playing it, Charlie. We could play that game. Promise you we owe you.