Baja Mar is the newest resort in the Bahamas, a short flight from the U. S. And 15 minutes from the airport for an easy family vacation. Kids will be entertained at the Explorers Kids Club while parents explore the casino golf course spot in over 40 restaurants, bars and lounges. Kids under five eat free at select restaurants to book winter specials, including up to 35% savings on your stay, visit Baha mar dot com. That's B A H a m a r dot com. Support for this podcast comes from Microsoft Security. Security threats are everywhere. That's why Microsoft Security has over 3500 cybercrime experts constantly monitoring for threats to help protect your business. Learn more at Microsoft dot com slash cybersecurity. I'm Robert Evans, and this is again behind the bastards the show where we tell you everything you don't know about the very worst people in all history. Now,

normally, at least that's what the show is about. But this week we're talking about you know, the Nazis, the modern Nazis, the Nazis who are marching in the streets of America right now and who, in fact, were marching in the streets of Washington, D. C. Just a few minutes before this podcast was recorded. Ah, in part one of this episode, we dissected the new Nazi movement and how it's changed since Charlottesville. On this episode, we're gonna be talking about what we saw at the Unite the right to point a rally,

and more to the point, we're going to try to answer the question. Is it a good idea to punch Nazis now? First, I should say, nobody that we're gonna be talking with today punched a Nazi. Today's rally. It went pretty much as well as these sort of things can go, but it's still a question I think is worth debating. If you spend any amount of time online and anti fascist activist circles, you will come across this Hitler quote, probably next to a picture of Richard Spencer getting punched in the face. The quote, as it is usually displayed, reads. Only one thing could have stopped our movement if our adversaries understood its principal and from the first day smashed with the utmost brutality,

the nucleus of our new movement. And it's an Adolf Hitler quote, And Hitler did say those words. But he did not say exactly those quotes in that order. As is usually the case with online quotes attributed to any sort of famous person, it's a little bit wrong. So I'm gonna read the actual Hitler quote, which is given during a speech in 1933. Only one danger could have jeopardized this development if our adversaries had understood its principle, established a clear understanding of our ideas and not offered any resistance or, alternatively, if they had from the first day annihilated with the utmost brutality, the nucleus of our new movement. So you see the difference there in the quote that's usually spread around online. It says. Hitler was basically saying the only thing that could have stopped us was if people had beat us up in the streets during our rights to power.

The actual quote is Hitler was saying two things we could have been stopped if we'd have been beaten up in the streets or if people had very clearly and very cogently elucidated what we were about, what we wanted and made it clear to everyone what our goals were and what our plans were. That could have stopped us too, especially if the people doing it had been nonviolent. So Hitler's opinion on the matter is a little bit more multifaceted than is usually presented. And so the question of whether or not it's a good idea to punch Nazis is a little bit more complicated than anti Nazi activists like to feel on. I say this is someone who has just done some anti Nazi activism, so I'm not inherently against the idea of hitting these people, either. It's a complicated issue. I think there's a couple of things we need to keep in mind before we get into our discussion. One of them is that in the 19 twenties and thirties and Germany during the rise of the Nazi Party, there were constant riots and running street battles, all the all across Weimar Germany. And in the mid 19 twenties, when this was all going on,

Berlin was known as the reddest city in Europe, a CZ we talked about on our non Nazi bastards episode. Berlin was, if you were gay, if he were Trans, if you were progressive, may be the best city in the world to live in, Um, and it was very much not a friendly place for Nazis. The rally were just at had 50 or so Nazi activists or less in several 1000 anti Nazi activists. And it wouldn't have been very different in Berlin when the Nazis first arrived. Uh, now the guy that Hitler put in charts of Berlin when the Nazis first started trying to make inroads into the reddest city in Europe was Joseph Gerbils, uh, gerbils put in charge of the Berlin's Nazi branch in his whole strategy, when he gained that position was to send his very few Berlin Nazis directly into leftist control junk with chunks of the city.

Now gerbils is Nazis would fight with anti fascist activists with Communist activists with leftist activists and there would be street battles. And the Nazis lost a lot of these street battles. They lost a lot of people. Some of them were killed. But the violence that this incurred helped inspire uh, conservatives within the German government, too. Be afraid of the anti Nazi activist. So it's not. It's not clear that fighting Nazis in Berlin helped stop them. Um, political moderates were alienated by the violence and since they were closer to the fire right Nazis than the fire left anti fascists. Well, the Conservatives wound up making cause with Hitler, and that's more or less what happened. That was the Nazis plan from beginning,

and it worked out. So the question of what's to be done about these Nazis is complicated. Can violence make Racists afraid again, or does it only help them? In the lead up to the first Charlottesville rally, the fascist went in looking for conflict in today's rally. It was a different matter. And today I'm gonna be talking with a round table of people that I attended this protest with on. We're going to try to get to the bottom of whether or not it's a good idea to hit Nazis, and we'll also be talking about what we saw and how we feel about the day. So that's my thing. There's a little bit of time dilation between what the user's our listeners listening are gonna hear and what this happened in the conversation. So from y'all's perspective, I just finished reading the speech about the whether or not it's a good idea to hit Nazis. And from our perspective, we have been drinking for 90 minutes or more after getting done yelling at Nazis all day.

So the listener should be aware that nobody is sober in this situation and that now we're going to talk about whether or not it's a good idea to hit Nazis and also what happened at this Nazi protest in D. C. So let's ah, let's go around the room and introduce our talkers about their Nazi yelling at experiences. That was good. That was good line. E feel good about that?

Well, one of the things that we saw really on my name Miss Hana Ettinger. Um, I was on the last episode over, and my podcast is kitchen table Colt. I host that with cure in dark water. Um, so one of the things that happened early on this waas at the foggy bottom metro station right after the Nazis got off the train there, about 30 years old of them, maybe less. There is this really fantastically angry old white guy with a British accent. He was like he was like an aging punk or something. Yeah, and he was calling them you wankers over and over. And he left over to try to like, I don't know, express his rage on and he had a bike,

and they, like, fell into it. He fell into the bike and they were shoving him and the cops to hit him and he kicks. You got it, was trying to get on video, and I missed it. But, um, whoever you are, you're our hero of the day in this podcast is dedicated to you

random British guy who who did one of the best leaps over a line of cops have ever seen to try to punch a Nazi in the face. Regardless of what we land on Visa VI, hitting Nazis is a good idea. You're a hero, and I want that to be clear to everybody that I'm I think that man is a hero. Should I ever run into you again? I'm not sure if I would recognize you because things were pretty nuts. But if

I should ever run into you again, I will buy you a beer. Perhaps. Please give us a shout out. We'd like to buy you beer.

All right, Nick, you should, um, Nick would I'm a former Marine. I'm currently an apprentice farmer that also science fiction writer, and I'm kind of on team punch Nazis until they can't see. My name is Ron Maria Eyes my first protest, uh, in life. So I'm overwhelmed with different feelings and emotions right now what I sold and have failed. But punching not nice is definitely something I did not. I felt at one point, but damn it gradually went away as

what are you feeling right now?

Oh, I don't know. I can't believe it. People are you still doing? My grandmother told me about, you know, I'm Seo fighting. The fight of my grandmother and grandfather was fighting are many years ago, I felt we feel like we settle this twice, twice. How many fucking times do we have to keep kicking the shit out of the fucking Nazis? Um, but I will kind of the way I feel. You're talking about how the Hitler was saying that. I either people being very like intellectual about it, very cogent, like understanding that these guys,

they're evil fuckers. And that just like not fighting them or them getting the absolute ever loving shit kicked out of them like I'm kind of on team kicked the shit out of the Nazis because, you know, they want to eradicate me and everyone that looks like me from existence. But the thing is, I think that the only way for that to be effective is for it would have its more effective when, like the town kicks the shit out of the Nazis. And not a team of anti fascist kicks the shadow of the Nazis. Because when it's like 25 antifa fighting, 25 Nazis or whatever is going on are what you know. There's obviously the odds change. But like when it's a small group of antic of fighting the Nazis, you can you can be like, Well, there's good or bad people on both sides or people could be like, Well,

I and violence is never the answer. But when the entire town of you know Washington, D. C gets up and, like, kicks the shed of all of the Nazis, What that says is don't come to Washington D. C if you're a fucking Nazi, and I think that's true. One of things that unsettles me a little bit about demonstrations like this and I think is a legitimate risk to avoid is that, um, the police are there, and I'm sure I know that because one of the police officers who was photographed under today has Nazi ish tattoos and has been photographed cause playing as a Nazi. Um, so I'm sure some of these guys are sympathetic to Nazis, but most of them aren't.

There were a lot of black officers. There were a lot of Latino officers. There were a lot of Filipino and Asian officers. I'm sure they're not Nazis, because why would they be? There's nothing that ideology for them but the nature of a protest in the nature of the police. Protecting this tiny number of protesters from a much larger number of counter protesters means that the police become the opposing force, and I don't know how to fix that. But I don't think that's a healthy development, because it shouldn't be the police versus the anti fascist trying to get the fascists. It should be, as you say, the community, the nation, everybody being like. And maybe that's a free speech thing.

Maybe we need to say that, you know, you have freedom of speech, you know of the freedom of speech to yell fire in a crowded theater. Likewise, you have freedom of speech. You don't have freedom of speech to advocate for genocide and racial cleansing, and maybe we don't give these people a platform to speak. So the police aren't put in a situation where they're protecting them so that we don't have anti fascists yelling at police because they want to get to the Nazis. Um, I don't know what the solution is, but it's clearly it can be done better than it's being done. I think that kind of on that topic, one of the things that would help, is basically so toe preface this We have seen multiple situations where the cops go a little off script and fuck up the counter protesters. We saw that shit in Portland where a cop fired tear gas grade at the back of somebody's head.

And we've got pictures of the cops after the end, critically, the back of his head not charging there, grinning like they're like this is fucking cool on. The thing is, that happens to anti fascists and black lives matter. And anyone fighting these assholes met all the time. The cops will fuck up the people fighting the Nazis or the racist or whoever Whatever fucking assholes out there, but we don't ever, ever see the cops break rank when it comes to dealing with the Nazis when it comes to protecting the fucking Nazis, and I understand that they have their orders and I understand their jobs, there's protect the Nazis. But what? The thing that really needs to happen. If the cops don't want to be the bad guys here, they don't like hearing those chance at the protest of Who do you protect you?

You serve like they got real mad when they heard that one. And I mean, I just I like that. But they are if they don't want to hear those protests than they need to be just as willing to occasionally break the rules and fuck up the Nazis or let the Nazis get fucked up as they are to fuck up the counter protesters. It's like it's again one of those axiomatic things. Either they need to be perfectly disciplined at fully protecting the Nazis, and the anti fascists augmented to be either, either that they need to be utterly impartial mediators in this situation, which they are not, or they need to let the Nazis get fucked up sometimes for the Nazis don't get to think the police are on their side.

One of the things that is really telling about that observation is you. You know who is vulnerable on who is not in that situation. The ones that the police are not going Thio break the rules around are the people who have the actual power. When the police are willing to break the rules, they know they're not gonna have consequences for it because the people that they are breaking rank over are the people who are vulnerable in this situation. So, like with the situation in Portland, the anti fascist protesters are the vulnerable people here. And the fact that the Nazis sky e metro car of their own today shows that the system of power ultimately is reinforcing their message.

And I think so. This is one of the things that scares May is. Um, I am very sympathetic to the anti fascists. I'm very sympathetic to activist today when there are chance like, uh, you know, who do you protect or when they're a chance of fuck the police? I understand the motivation because the police in this country any of your reasonably well informed person. You understand there's problems with law enforcement in this country. There's issues with how it goes down, the fascist activists, unless these activists than other activists have been very good at getting the police on their side. Um, and there are There's evidence of this fact. In March 13th the Homeland Security analyst, in an email to local law enforcement in Tennessee,

noted that the Traditional Workers Party, which is one of the groups that was behind the first united the right protest quote, typically is not the issue but rather opposing groups. In April, police in Georgia and this April 2017 police enjoyed you revealed they planned for mass violence at a local rally based on rumors that were spread by a far right wing 3% ER, which is like a militia group Facebook account that was claiming that it would be 12,000 anti fascists at the party or at the protest, and that they would be looting and rioting and what not the police trust these people more than they trust the anti fascist activists, and I'm sure some of that has to do with the fact that a lot of police officers are. A number of police officers have biases of their own. But some of us to do with the fact that all of the Racists at these rallies are nice to the police and all the anti fascists air yelling at them. Um, and I'm not trying to be like, feel sorry for the police or whatever, because that is not my my concern. But there are some concerns to keep in mind, including the fact that California police in a variety of counties have been recorded working with fascist activists against anti fascist activists.

There was one case of a fascist activist who had been arrested on domestic violence charge, and the police, rather than investigating him on that, started questioning him on trying to get the names and identities of anti fascist activists based on their pictures and then assured him, We're not looking at you as a perpetrator. We're looking you as a victim. There was a fashion question. Yeah, fashion. They were questioning. So it is clear that their charm campaign against the police has not been ineffective and again not to defend the police. But if you're just getting yelled at by these people all day long. I can see why the tiny group of folks who are being polite to you, why that might be more compelling. And this is not a writer. Wrong issues is purely a tactical issue of what is more effective. And I do feel like the anti fascist side of the equation could more effectively dialogue with the police to let them know we're not happy with how the situation is going down. But we're not angry at you. We're trying to get to that. I

don't know what they're right. You're really walking a fine line there with tone policing. So sure, it's a it's a It's a very valid concern and it's a very real recommendation because it is effective. But it also is a sort of thing that, like, yes, this anger is justified. Like

like attracts. Like I I have a couple of thoughts here that relate to the how this stuff into plays with activists and race. So I think that you're not wrong and that in a completely sterile environment, you know, these ideal physics experiments, environments I would be like I would say you're probably right that they they need to court the police and get them liketo See, the the anti fascist is like the ones fighting for democracy and all that stuff because presumably if the police actually believe any of their oaths, then they would they would go along with that. But I think it's God. It ends up being another one of the things that's very different when you were talking with mostly white people. When you're talking with mostly black people, I feel the same way about the argument as to whether or not to employ violence. Because four black people, the police, are a threat to our fucking existence. Most of the time I grew up with cops. My dad was a cop.

I grew up around. Cops used to feel safe around cops, and that was entirely incorrect. Then, like they are not here for us. They are dangerous to us all the time. So the thing is that, like the fact that they're dangerous to us in this context as anti fascist protesters isn't different to me than like every day. So, like, I don't care that they're against me because they're always against me and I could get shot because they thought my phone looked suspicious. However, when anti fascist groups are primarily white, when they're in places like Portland, there one there And like there were other places where most anti fascists are white and the cops are probably white. And all this other shit like I kind of have a little more of that idea that maybe the white anti fascist should,

like, get in good with the police. Because the thing is, their relationship of the police is different, and it kind of relates to the way I feel about the argument about whether or not people should employ violence is all well and good for white activists to talk to each other about whether or not they should employ violence, because the violent rhetoric of the Nazis is, by and large not aimed at them. So if there's a way that that mostly white people in this country that is mostly white people, um, or at least a majority white people could get together and find a way to fight back against this and push back and change the world without violence than do it. But I understand that for the rest of us, this is never not been a fight to the death. It's just a slow fight to

the death. And I think that sickly, be sick, like entry level requirement for understanding to like Cool would be a good ally is to get that piece of it. And you were talking earlier about what they end. If I discuss about Like, who's arrestable?

Yeah, well, that was That was a standing right thing. I don't know because I'm not privy to Auntie Pause in turning to catch to catch the listener up. When I was at Standing Rock, there were a number of posters around this saying, Are you were? Are you arrestable? Sign up for a variety of events because a lot of the Native American activists or indigenous American activists, um, who were active at that event had been arrested a number of times already. And if they were arrested anymore, there he had pending court cases. They could not continue to be in the front lines dealing with the police. So they were asking for There were a lot of at standing rock young, white, mostly early twenties or late teens activists who had showed up.

These were people who could stand at a couple of arrests on their record, wouldn't fuck their lives up. And so they were saying, Essentially, use your privilege as a middle class white kid because it's not gonna be bad for you if you get arrested. So stand in the front of the line, be in the front of these actions that were doing to try to delay the constructions pipeline. I don't know if that's part of anti fave strategy, because actually, I was very right after the inauguration. I was very interesting. If things like black Bloc tactics and with the groups like that, one of the things when I was looking into black, like one of things they were saying was people doing black bloc tactics need to be white and probably meant because white dudes could get away with fucking anything. And like, if someone's gotta run in and punch the Nazis and get in there and push the police around,

break windows and sets it on fire because, you know kinetic disturbance is part of what runs revolution like make it the white people do it. And so, like, I didn't get involved in Black block because I knew that if I were a, it would have been bad for my wife and her career. But like, but be like if I got involved with Lifelock. Yeah, might be fun for maybe, like in a may be satisfying for me. But the very first time I ran into the police, I run the risk of being killed or imprisoned or just like a bunch of real bad shit happening to me. And I don't have my life affects other people's lives. And if it were just about, if I were single and unattached, I'd be doing that shit all day. But I don't get to do that because I have to care about other people,

right? So that's the consequences for you as a human are low punch Nazis. But if you're in a place where you do not have the privilege of being able to afford not risk, there are other ways you could be smart. It's resist.

There is an additional dimension to it, which is that, um, you have to consider it's not just okay. Is punching Nazis safe for you, because if punching Nazis were always good and punching Nazis was safe for you than if it's safe for you to punch a Nazi, punch a Nazi. But there's an optics battle that is being fought. There's a battle larger than the sympathy of the police, the sympathy of the nation where people stand. And that is a sickly sympathy. Well, yeah, I

mean the answer for for damn sure what I was talking about this morning when we were recording about how, like campaigning with four Northam and door knocking and like hearing like moderates talking about beyond this Charlottesville was ugly, and these people are inciting violence, so we're going to vote against them. We're going to vote for the gems. And so that's another thing. It's like we have to be aware of the optics of is and like Are we inciting violence? Are we like going low when they go? So where we going high like, Are we meeting them at their level and giving them the terms of the debate?

And I Are we giving the Nazis what they want? Because I didn't That's a valid question to ask, and I There are a number of quotes from and again in the first part of this. I read through a lot of their conversation. So we do know a lot of things that they've said we know. For one, they're embarrassed at the idea of being outnumbered and being needed to be protected by the police. Found this conversation. Yeah, and there were least a couple of 1000 anti fascist

activists. And don't you find it interesting that the costs were not protecting any anti fascist protesters? That what you saw? Much larger numbers of anti fascist protesters marching in the streets. They the cops were nowhere to be found. But when it's 12 Nazis comes all around them securing that for sure. Nazis got like a double row of cops protecting them from protesters. And then when Pakistan Yeah, and then women. And then when a crowd of anti fascist protesters gathered around to yell at them, we got surrounded by three more rows of cops on the back side of our group. They started like it wasn't they were protecting us. So yeah, I do think the question that when people I think the larger question of how we treat police folks in the last three police is fine, But the question of who do you protect? Like Why is that? Why isn't that Ah handful of Nazis get so so much taxpayer money in terms of protection But by police?

I met, you know, 10 20 times the amount of anti fascist protest protest was getting nothing because the system is designed to support them. I mean, I don't want to say it, but doesn't it seem that

way? It does again. I want to make it clear. No, no, What I'm saying is a moral argument in favor of the police because I'm not. And none of it is a moral argument. Favorite, the tactics. What I'm asking is, are Trevor of the Fascist. What I'm asking is, is it an effective tactic to punch Nazis? Does it bring us closer to our goal of their not being Nazis? You know, because we want to make you know, in a lot of ways,

it's good to make historical comparisons between it's happening now and what happened in Weimar, Germany, because holy shit, it's very fun following the playbook. There are even instances where people made quotes that, like, if you said, did this someone say this in Weimar Germany or 2018 you know, like America 2018 year like

article guys, please.

Yeah, yeah, So there's a lot of value to that. But here's one of the ways in which is different. The Nazis in Weimar Germany were actually tough fuckers. Yeah, they all survived the trenches in World War, which is probably the worst combat human beings have lived through. Yes, yeah, So when so when fighting them in the streets. You know, if you're not on the situation where everyone's fighting in the streets when it's just like anti fascist fascist fighting and both sides are equally dangerous and both sides are equally competent and they're both they're all I mean, to some extent, is kind of like when the punks fight. The skinheads, like both of those groups of people,

are, well, usedto beating the shit out of each other. That might not be very effective, because if you punch a Nazi who's used to getting punched, he's just like, Okay, I got punched today. Sweet. Didn't like right that

if he's a proud boy, probably isn't. And that's swell bathing serials, right? Yeah, like you obviously can't get your nose broken if you're naming cereals

and that's kind of the place where I kind of find a little bit of a wrinkle in that and when talking about that, because we like optics, is a definite discussion, but also the morale of okay. I think of things as like, in tactical sense, an officer, right? They are my enemies, so I think of them like so the enemy's morale is important because breaking the enemy's morale is that you win. It's actually about destroying them necessarily. It's about making them never want to fight you again. And with a lot of these fuckers, they don't know how to fight. They don't they're not. They're not Nazis in the sense that the Nazis in Weimar, Germany were there tough bastards,

large, scary at that rally. Exactly there'll arbors and so like when they're afraid of being outnumbered and terrified. We need to lean into that because one of the problems is that, like, it would be great if there was, like a women's march style protests, where it's like pretty peaceful everybody's get along. It's mostly just a giant rolling party, and we're like, yeah, you know, just like everybody's, they're having a great time. There's thousands of people that's great. When it happens,

there was the Clear Resistance Dance Party. Hey was 1000 but it was big

and those air good and they were great for the optics, and it's really good. But it's also

good for our morale,

and it's great for ever in its great. That's another part of it, too, is it's great to see people having a great time, just, you know, peacefully resisting the Nazis. But it's also effective, you know, like for those of us that are gonna be screaming at the Nazis and it's not gonna be a peaceful life at all, even if no one's getting punch, it's like not gonna be a peaceful when I'm standing in front of a crowd of anti fascist for those people, like, the optics are not gonna be outside anyway, because we've got the stability fuckers like being like, Well, you're not being night.

Shouldn't be swearing in a minute like Okay, we've already lost the optics battle in that regard, in terms of like the moderate turns on my side. So what's the next most effective part of to my tactic? Well, the next most effective thing that I'm worried about is the morale of my enemy. And when these guys are literally weak little shits like they're just large birds, they're not seal arbors. Yeah,

And I think I think at this point, what with what you're talking about. One of the key things is like endurance. Yes, they are really enchanted by the idea of having it be a one and done take over like being able to just, like, overpower or something and that it's been part of the the whole mission since it was first invented. And, um, being able to get large numbers of people to show up consistently over time and yell them down is going to show them that we cannot lost them.

And I do think I think over time is critical. So I'm gonna read for just a minute here, um, to go over some stuff I found in their own chats. One is from a January 18th 2018 threat about a rally where Richard Spencer and 30 fascists had to be escorted past a crowd of 2000 protesters. This is what the Nazis said about that rally Quote first guy and threat, these air brute, those air brutal odds with enough discipline and hopefully a halfway decent, decent police force we can survive. The first response was dude, it takes rule of law to protect 30 versus 2000. Discipline means nothing. At that point, the only thing keeping us alive is their fear of the police. Now there was another post that I found in a Facebook threat by Cat Snyder, who was marching today. I think in the anti fat or in the Fascist march,

Uh, Cat is an activist within Jason Kesler Circle. She is a fascist activist she posted in May when they were planning the rally that we just got from that she had attended a Trump Impeachment Town hall near her home and called it quote absolutely frightening and said that quote the money in that room, the power, the numbers. So she was very scared by the number of people that she saw in opposition to her. And she was also very scared by the number of people that she saw a demonstration against folks like Richard Spencer. And my question is, since optics are such an important part of the battle, is it more valuable that we be seen in Moss resisting than it is that we physically confront these people because physical confrontation breeds, if not sympathy, then at least more empathy. And then we want the Nazis tohave and the person I want to pose that question to first is Laurent over here has been quite quiet. Just finished attending his first protests spots. You d I Did I put you really on the spot? You really the,

uh, boy? Yeah. Yeah, that makes them. I'm just open. William Steele. I, um I can't believe I really can't believe what I just experienced the whole from the beginning to the entity going back and seeing the cause. Presidents on knowing how I already feel about the cost a zit is, especially when it causes my safety, You know, I know I never feel idea here for my safety. I don't wanna be alone. Cost me anything As far as my safety goes, I think if you weren't repeat the question Yeah,

from you set your mind state. I'm basically asking. So the Nazis were clearly demoralized by the fact that they're outnumbered. Right? Is it better to just outnumber them? Or do we need to physically confront them? Do we need to be violent with them. Or is it best to just show up and be consistently a show of our numbers against theirs? Oh, okay. Well, yeah, definitely. I feel from my observation today was watching them. A lot of them flee a CZ. The crowd got bigger,

you know, I guess they don't like intimidation. Sure can't stand to be intimidated with. Yeah, which, uh, which is what I really noticed the most today was that I said a lot of wrapping. The flag's up, moving out of the way like the large crowds got the ladder. It got a lot of them were like, What if they did it completely by, you know, if they bought it and I didn't realize I couldn't stay in the heat. What does that say? He got a little hot in the kitchen. They had to get out.

It was hard to know what they would respect. I guess there's only, like, 50 of the of the metal, and they don't let me show up at the same time. From the watch the beginning of the march to the end of March, you only have a small station jump out from the beginning and he had other smaller,

their own. And there were a lot of this from just observation. I don't know about actual numbers. There seemed to be a fair number that we're undercover that were wandering around you, and that is kind of telling them they were unwilling to show themselves with the main group. They were unwilling to actually participate, but they were there with sticks and umbrellas in hand to use his weapons in case they got the chance and explain

when you pointed this out to May and I manse lady, that I didn't think it was a problem. And I was completely wrong because they wound up being the secret Nazis that later led to almost a fight with

the police. Right. So what I saw was there was a guy with a red rain jacket with the hood pulled up really high and zipped up over his face. And he was carrying in umbrella and he was wearing a backpack. And he was with another guy who was all in black, could have looked like an anti five, but clearly was not operating

with them. And that was what I thought

you was. All in black. He was, like, all in, like, you know, under armour or whatever. And he had a like a cane and was walking around. And these are all three white guys. And there's 1/3 who was also wearing a hood and, um, a bandanna. And he had a like a wooden huge wooden stick stuck into his backpack underneath his backpack, holding it up. And it was like looking at them. I was like three white dudes,

completely independent, no into folk like paraphernalia on them. Like, you know, the Interpol was really persistent about, like, don't take pictures, don't take pictures if you want to support their own groups. And these guys were not saying anything like that, and they were really kind of skittish on dhe. I was like, Oh, we have undercover Nazis here. Look at this. Um, And after I saw that,

I start seeing them everywhere. And, uh, later, when we got out from dinner, that's what we, that guy in the red jacket and his friends were the ones that were being surrounded by a crowd of black lives matter protestors. So can you describe the experience that we had going to dinner and then after dinner, Yes. So we walked out of Old Ebbitt Grill.

We figured this shit was over by then. So we we did. Our marching we did are yelling The Nazis left and were raining. We ate some enchiladas when we got drunk.

So we come out and, uh and we see that up the street. There's this crowd and it's mostly people of color on there, real angry, and, uh, in our morning recording, Mad talked about the flag of Pakistan, Pakistan.

So for people who are for yes, thank you for doing the right thing for be lowered, for whatever reason, turning into the second part of our episode and have not listen to the first. That Pakistan flag is the flag of a bunch of Nazi nerd gamers based on like Keck, which is essentially how Koreans say l. A well and like they made this flag for their fake country of people who were putting out means for the locals. And the flag is based off of the Craigs marine flag from World War Two. It's based off of a Nazi flag, the German navy flag from World War Two. It's a Nazi they love

Zabel flag that's inverted in inverted colors.

Yeah, essentially that. And the Nazis love this way to do 14 88 which is where, like the 14 words and 88 is like Hitler. H is the eighth letter of the words Oh, our letter of the alphabet. So, like Heil Hitler is a I heard it was eight, because it's like if you took a swastika on, like filming this space is it's like a digital 88 and they're literally that lame. I've heard a totally different thing. I couldn't because it was Heil Hitler in H and H R eight just right.

Yeah, things. So we saw the kickstand flag and we walk out and we see that there's, uh, a bunch of people who really agitated. And there's a double line of cops between them and these two guys, and we asked what's going on? And these guys are like, Oh, with their seats, like to low Nazis here, and we've got this flag and they're just hanging out and all these cops of protecting them. And we're angry that the cops are protecting them. Uh, and chance is yes. There were some aggressive chance I got started. Um, we're not gonna need names and aggressive. It was

We are many. They're few.

And who do you serve? Who do you protect? And in the car?

Someone. When you first explain that chant, by the way, neck you you meant that It's sort of like aimed at the Nazis. I realized as it took off, I was like, Oh, the police think we're talking about them and it kind of work for the police. They were less police than angry people on they got They got concerned when that one took off. Yeah, which is Be careful what you chant, which is if you're chanting if you're a chanter, if you're chanting, be careful what chance And when you chant it. Although I support your chance, by

the way So when this group of people started shouting at the cops saying, Who do you serve? Who do you protect? We suddenly realized that on the other side of the street there was a whole bunch. They were holding two cop cars pulling up in the whole bunch of cops on bikes showing up, and they blocked us into a crosswalk area. So on one side, double row cops, and then you had a bunch of protesters. And then on the other side of the cross talk, you had a triple cops backed up by like multiple police

vehicles. And if you haven't been to a protest before, one of the things that police will do that is very intelligent strategy. Bicycle cops were used their bicycles to form a physical barrier and then stand behind or in front of their bicycles. But there will essentially be bicycle wheel to bicycle wheel and make a wall of bicycles and then stand to hold them up. And it's a very effective way of creating a mobile barricade.

So they had a double row of that, plus another rough of police behind them, plus backup in cars. So it was a very intimidating situation, and and it seemed kind of over the top four to Nazis, given that we were healing at them because of the Pakistan flag. And, um, I resisted a very tense situation, and the these were the guys that I have recognised him before.

Yet you nailed it and I I figured they were just anti five people who weren't with the main group or whatever, Because I'm the bastard today. One other thing we saw, um, it was when we were winding down after part one of healing and Nazis when we were thinking about Hey, there are 5000 people here. We can. We've been doing this. Probably probably tired and take a piece. Yeah. So we rating when we were gathering grouping up. And what is your drink? We're gathering up. We're trying final round. We'll get our damn drinks. And the guy came up to us and said, Hey,

there's two Nazis over there that are, like, completely unprotected. Mom, they've got no one. Like Like they're just They're and they're, like, talking and shit. And the thing is, at first, okay, I was a Marine. I am was made to be a hammer. All of my problems look like nails. So I'm sitting here like Ooh, cool.

Where the Nazis. I'd like to go hit some Nazis. These guys are unprotected. Nazis punch the Nazis. And that was my initial reaction. And then it was like and then I don't remember what some one of my compatriots here said something, and then I suddenly realized that guy that told us that was probably an agitator, and he probably wanted to start.

She was a provocateur. He was this, like, middle aged white dude who is alone not working with anybody.

And he gave us that information and disappeared. And

then he like Iran

and like, he was probably also a Nazi. And it's hard, man. When you go to enough events like this, you get very paranoid because number one there were a lot of people in the crowd with the Journal. So when when the salt first started just to explain to the listener, there was we were staying instead of essentially a metro station in D. C. And the Nazis came out of the Metro station and there was a line of police protecting their route of March. And there were anti fascist activists all around the outside of that, yelling at these people and journalists and the among the crowd of journalists. They were undercover police, and we knew they were because they had badges clipped their belts. So if some of what we have said in the last little bit here sounds paranoid, it is because if you attend a lot of protests, paranoia occurs because things that induce paranoia happening protests.

And sometimes you're wrong with your paranoia. But often times you are not hot. Um, was not wrong in her paranoia. And I was wrong in my counter and her parents.

Thank you, thank you. My paranoia is always right.

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That was better, right? So we're back. Um, so I want to bring us around to you know, we have a big question that and try to answer at the end of this if it's answerable. But what? One thing I want to get to now is Do we think the Nazis won or lost in this rally? And obviously they were outnumbered. I do want to read a couple of tweets Jason Kesler put up in the immediate aftermath of this because those are, uh, pertinent. Treated from inside of Bush. He was hiding in?

No, the metro car that he was protected

in. He was gonna push it sometime. Something. Really? Yeah. It's wandering towards someone. Was like

That was just last year. He was expecting It was, like, spicy. He came into the bush.

Yeah. Just Homer made it into the police. I think the overall I mean, I'm sure the tweets will shed some light on how they think they did, but I think they lost. And the reason I think they lost is that they were very clearly intimidated there. They looked stupid. They looked pathetic. They didn't get to get in any of these altercations. They didn't get to feel like victims, but they very clearly pissed off. D. C and D. C showed up in fucking force. Fuck the black lives matter. Flag came onto the field at some at one point, and people start chanting black lives matter and then lighten increased the sky. The fucking gods were angry at the Nazis.

It was such a It was hard. It was so perfect. It was

like, Okay, I don't know if everyone here

is I was nothing. And that happened. I'd be like, All right, I'm going home now. I'm gonna hide.

Oh, the black lives matter Flag was heralded by lightning and thunder I'm going home. What

kind of forever?

Forever, Mother. Here's what Jason Kesler tweeted Thank you to all of the law enforcement officers that protected free speech in public safety. Today at hashtag you tr to the whole thing has been a logistical challenge from hell, but we proved we could do it peacefully. Despite all the naysayers. Another couple of other posts. One of them is a thing. He retweeted from an activist named Hannah Natonski, who was, I think, one of the white nationalist protesters. A woman? Yeah, a

lady. Yeah. People should be talking about how white women are relieved to being their part to uphold the

sure are. They're not. They're not falling down in the racism fascism supporting

department. Can I just take a second here as a white woman to other white women? We're listening to this. We're all racist and we have to do the bucking work to overcome that, because it has been bred into us and into our socialization. And we're complacent.

It is the exact same thing that ever likes it all to men. Just that you don't get to fucking do this. No, man. Bullshit. Don't give me that shot. So I should say here I was wrong. Hannon Atkinson is apparently a reporter, apparently with The Washington Post.

Well,

here's what she tweeted. So here I'm gonna read out what she tweet. I'm the one responsible. By the way, none of you did anything wrong because I gave you all bad information because we're drinking, we're drinking and we're kind of. But

here's what she said to white women still is not well.

And here's your tweets, so we can we can comment. After weary, I read this tweet encircled by reporters, Kessler says he is not a white supremacist, but a quote civil rights advocate for white people. He said white Americans are unfairly discriminated against, pointing in part to the removal of Alex Jones from social media

sites. So wait. So then why doesn't the easy on you hire him? I want questions. No, no. Ask him very phrase to me that that as a white, straight, CIS gender able bodied male, he feels so oppressed on that. The thing that he points to toward that the root of his oppression is oh, Alex Jones personal. He was not kicked out a bit and Ray like he was still on there. No, my crazy

social media. So

big. He was from some massive. Not not. Not Twitter. It was everybody but Twitter, right? Yeah.

And he was sword a kind of 100% without any sort of deniability urging that people harassed the family members of Children who were murdered during

that call. He was just He was just harassing the family that I murdered Children at Sandy Hook.

All Well, that's exactly it. All all that Alex Jones was guilty of was urging was was was saying that the family members of small Children who were murdered by a mass shooter were part of a false flag

operation and urging his followers to harass them. But I think I don't

think anyone listening to this podcast about terrible people in history is going to be on the side of Alex Jones. We shouldn't belabor

that I

do want to talk about this

person's report. I just find it curious that, like that is the evidence that what you're oppressed was evidence out stones. You should give up

all of tweet. I'm looking for that right now.

I would like to read her Washington Post violin piece tomorrow about this.

Okay, Yeah, Let's keep it on this man. She's

I heard you say munchies. And then I realize you meant mentioned she had some

other stuff that was fair ish. Like where she said, like the united the right marches of all left town. This is earlier in the day. They're always supposed to begin at 5 30 while in DC 20 marchers listen to a brief Kessler speech and talked to reporters. One man told me The Washington Post is Jewish owned and it doesn't speak to Jews before he walked away. So she did. She did note that I don't know. Part of this may be the fact that Twitter is a good way to spread links to news stories, but not a good way to do journalism. And so her quote out of context

isn't great. It's really, really hard to do reporting on the ground and keep track of everything and tweet about it at the same time. I'm sure there's a lot missing.

I guess I could give kind of give her a little bit of the benefit of the doubt. I don't wanna be mean, Johanna, because I don't know this lady. And maybe maybe she's affair.

My situation is enough. This is why I did. I did was I said I want to see her piece tomorrow and see what she actually says in her report.

Nazi insinuation Withdraw. Yeah, but Kessler retweeted that And then later he retweeted another post from you tr Hurricane hurricane hashed have white civilizations something or other white civil rights. It looks like a picture of a young lady. So this is your is your young lady who seem to be supporting Jason Kessler, who was marching with him today. One of the women who was marching with them days who shed. We just destroyed three large pizzas in the motor home. But before I pass out, I want to say this. I feel vindicated. I was called every nasty, nasty name in the book for believing in the hashtag white civil rights rally and the D C. Police Department and Jason Kessler and peaceful free speech.

Good night. Okay. I want to say something on that point. Um, the idea that if you were opposed by people than you're doing the right thing, is really pervasive in in particular in conservative evangelical circles. And I don't know, I can't speak for the all right, um, but I feel like there's a lot of overlap where this there's this idea of, well, like Jesus was killed in the world of trouble. And so in the world you have trouble. So if you are following Jesus correctly, you will be opposed and you'll meet a lot of conflict. And so that kind of mentality reinforces the sense of moral rightness for these people.

It's sort of like how I firmly believe that we should replace cows with horses and vice versa, and that that's that. That's something I believe religiously, and the fact that everyone disagrees with me, I take is proof that my ideas were righteous and right, but may just be proof that I'm a crazy

person, sort of a non second her. It's

not a non sequitur, it's a horse, and it should be what we make hamburgers

out of me. Can I ask a question? Absolutely. What do you guys feel Looks like So in case people are listening in, they're like, What's the makeup of the room? You have two black men, one black woman, a white woman and a white man. What do you guys feel that these air these air your federal white people like? How does that feel for you guys like knowing that, like the And they're doing this because they are trying to assert, like there race their their superiority on Kind of like on your behalf. What is that experience like for you as white

people? I mean, Han, if you want to answer first, you're welcome. Thio. I

have a thing. So that's an interesting question. And I appreciate us. I'm very curious. Yeah, So I'm one hand. It's like you don't represent me. Shut up!

And there were science that we saw that

said that too, right? Um and on the other hand, it's I do not believe that guilt is a useful emotion. I have been on the receiving end of a lot of apologies from people who treated me shit early when I got divorced or when I was like, in the process of leaving the cult, I grew up in who have now come around and they're like, I'm so sorry I was horrible to you And my perspective on that is like, that doesn't mean no good, do better. And so for me, as a white person, if I feel guilty, I need to relate that experience to how guilt has felt when I have received it from people who are apologetic and feel guilty. And my job is not to sit and feel guilty. It's to do better. So I I'm going to work on educating myself.

It is an ongoing life on task. Every society and every community I have ever been a part of was created in some form or another on racist beliefs. Homeschooling, Christian evangelicalism, white churches, the college I went to. All these places were had very, very few people of color on purpose. And so I feel like the burden is on me to correct that, and I've got a long journey ahead of me. But showing up for these kinds of things is part of that journey, and I don't want brownie points because I'm just now doing the bare minimum that I should have been doing all along, but it's a long process. So but the whole thing is like these guys don't represent me, and I'm here to tell them that and, uh, to do my moral duty.

I mean, I'm just like So I'm I'm a I'm a big white guy, very tall and very broad, and I'm very white, and I have for a long time one of my hobbies was just lying to my friends about things. Because when I talk about stuff in with an authoritative manner, people believe me because I'm a big white guy and that's just the way our society is set up, that if, as a big white guy you sit and you start telling fax or whatever, people will listen to you, even if it's lies, which is why most of our we could get into the political into this at some other point. But I have the idea that white people would need a civil rights rally as a white dude is inconceivable to me because I have had a lot of difficulties in my life, and I know a lot of other white men who have had a lot of difficulties in life, very tough life's very painful life's No, that has to do with the fact that we're white guys. Um,

and the fact that these people are saying that that's a problem that we have is very frustrating to me, and it's more frustrating. And then you talk to men, men's rights activists, and I don't agree with those people either. But there are injustices for men based on women, like the fact that men who have Children, if they go to court with their female childbearing partner or whatever term you choose to use, have more difficulty when in custody. Whatever, there are legitimate legal issues there that can be addressed or whatever. Some

of the points. There's a reason that that system privileges the child bearing partners, but yes, but

there's a debate to be had there. There's no rational debate by which you can believe white people, in particularly white men are disadvantaged in the United States of America because look at this country like walk outside, go on, go on a walk. It's very clear

in my experience as a human, when the white people are like, Yeah, but this isn't a problem. There are more important things to focus on I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna ignore you because you're you've always been wrong in my experience because unless you have suffered loss of privilege, you don't have any idea what the other side is experiencing at all Well, and I'm

a I'm a child of Hollywood like most

of the planet. You know, I'm like, you know, I was a kid who was raised by movies, movies

and television like I'm a child who was raised by films. And one thing American cinema has done is a great job of convincing me that the underdogs are usually the people that you should root for. And the underdogs in this society wearing are not white guy slip like that's for sure, not who is being fucked over in the society

that goes back to my point with, like, who are the cops behaving for, Who do you protect, who you serve? They're protecting the white supremacists, and they're not protecting the people who are against white supremacy. So the system is is stacked. It's clear

well and that that brings us back to my initial question, which is not Is it right or wrong to punch Nazis? But is it Does it bring us closer to our goal of a society where Nazis have no political power, Which is I think most people listening can agree. Nazi shouldn't have any political power. White supremacist should not have any kind of political power. The cake vacation on a political power Does violence to them bring us closer to that goal than peaceful resistance at this point in the debate? And that is the question. I want to go around as a round table and get people's thoughts on. So why don't we start with you, Bridget? The person holding

the mic? Yeah, I'm holding the mic. I'm, uh Yeah, I, uh, Miss Bridget, I don't know. I mean, it's hard for me. You guys saw me out there. I get emotional. I think that for me, it's I may intellectually know that punching Mathys and like screaming in their face, is not getting us closer to being free. But there's something cathartic about it.

And my leg primate brain. There's a part of my brain that's just like, yes, hit them, punch them like I'm not concerned about whether or not it gets us closer to our goal. You know, I'm an organizer. So I think about things in terms of what is our, you know, our shared goal. But there is something. There's a visceral that happens that almost makes me turn that part of my logical brain off. And I'm just like, I want him get hit like that. It's like I become, become,

like, post bad man man, when you were out there, I mean, you and I got in that are, you know, with a guy and

set that up a little bit through these people. The people, you all listening

right now way actually have the audio of you like destroying him. And if you want this video, we

were at this protest and we were watching these people with Pakistan. Flag gets around. And while that was happening, there was a Nelda early guy who was clearly not from the United States in Did not speak English as a first

language was like to be clear. I am familiar with them. He's unwell. You fine.

He's a regular

DCs is mentally

unwell. And his his signs were all about circumcision. And there was a a young white guy in a three piece suit and the dude filming him. Interviewing this guy about his sign suit

you got

on the disc are been fucking copy of a suit of seen Richard Spencer and

you got it on the discount rack, it men's warehouse and probably Manafort. Which has he had it?

Well, if there's no

ostrich in that fund. So this

this this young dude was like talking to this guy who was a little bit off about his circumcision based sign at a rally that was a focus of our own racial justice. And it seemed like it was very clearly this guy and his friend came out to the protest to try to film the few crazy signs they could find that they could make fun of the whole protest by pointing

out like explicitly said that, Yes, they said, we're gonna

have a little fun. Yeah, they said we're here to have a little fun. It's got that smug fucker. Yeah, he had a very

small find video evidence on Twitter. I recorded it. It's there.

It's frustrating. We'll link it. So he both Bridget and I wound up confronting this guy at varying points because he just was clearly up to no good. Uh, and she got very heated, which was understandable in the moment. So that's I think, what? That was

the lead in the way I explain, I got heated and I think for me, you know, I was born in D. C. This is I have lived in D. C for most of my adult life. People come here for protests and they think it's, you know, a theme park for their cause. Play around Whatever. This is my home. I live here. I'm gonna have a kid here like this is where I live. Did you know? Yeah, I for me the fact that guy waas targeting somebody that is obviously marginalized,

obviously unwell. There are a 1,000,000 people to talk to who were out and about It is not. I don't think it's a coincidence that he shows on older guy. I didn't really speak English guy who was clearly like he chose a vulnerable d c resident hand. This guy said he was from Maryland, so he came into town Quote to have a little fun. Ones will not. Not you'll notice it wasn't with a shirtless black lives matter, big guy. It wasn't with someone who would have liked got in his face. I thought it was interesting that when you went mad, when you, like,

talk to him. That's what people call me Robert is how they know we're not gonna

explain that anymore. Okay, continue. Do you see the beef?

No, we don't. Okay. It's a weird East Coast.

Okay, We'll include all this,

but I will make fun of you.

Okay, fine. Beaches a thing. I'm sorry. No, but But, Robert, when you when you got in his face and you challenged him, I found it really interesting that when he was talking to life. Let's be riel, That guy. I know that guy. I feel comfortable saying this because I've seen that guy every DC

protest, right? The older

guy? Yeah, the older guy. I feel comfortable saying that I've seen him for years. He is. Can I just say something like, I haven't lived in D. C in about three years, and I've seen that like he's a fixture. He's around, he's he's fine. But he is clearly meant he's like a vulnerable, vulnerable person like he is under house. And he is of all people to like, talk

to like no good journalist would interview that. Approached by journalists three times during this protest. They should be not completely sure Why me? But But they talk

thio, and you're wearing this shirt. You have a look that like? Yeah, you look like a veteran and you're wearing a black lives matter shirt.

So they came and talked to me three separate times and none of that look at all. Like what was happening

with this? No, that was that was bullying. Like what we're witnessing was who is someone who was vulnerable, who is someone that will not have the ability to best me that could make look foolish. And we want to journalists all the time, and they're always so respectful, so thoughtful, so informed, so like, open to wearing coming from. And this guy was playing the I'm gonna get your games. And exactly

as a journalist who has covered a lot of civil unrest in screw, you don't talk to the kooks because they don't. They're not representative. They don't teach you anything. So every this feeds into the point. There's really shit going on here. And some motherfucker from his fucking Maryland college showing up in a goddamn suit to make a nutty old guy who was harmless look like a spokesperson for this rally against people who are out and proud members of the Ku Klux Klan is

infuriating. It was we were. So I completely agree. I think that why I got so upset was that it was someone that was marginalized and vulnerable on that. Like he was all the people will talk to. He didn't talk to any of the like black dudes. Latino dudes without short screaming way too scared. Yeah, Anyone

who was not as

white as him exactly as soon as I got in his face of camera like you could watch his body language say he like he, like, would start

stuttering and his friend with a camera put his camera down,

assume way exactly how you know that he's a booking, Charlotte. And so I guess for me, you know, it's hard because this is my community. This is my home. Like, this is not a game. This is not a thing for fun. Like, this is where I live. The guy that he was, you know, targeting. That's sort of like I hate to say this. He's like my kook like he's like, Not like he's your neighbour.

Yes, he's in my community and I agree with you. But in terms of is it okay that punch Nazis? It's probably more effective in terms of a more effective theory of change around how we deal with Nazis, to reason with them, not punch them. But in that moment I was like I was like, Where is the person? That's just like I'm ending this with a fucking bitch like

I didn't want

to hit him. Yeah, T o. Here's the other thing that was really interesting about this conversation. You know, some people are just bagging for a punch to the face.

There's a German

word for that. What is it? It's back for Schlager. But it is. It was hella back. Live back first. Like something

like that. We

will be no home with homemade with Hala

Basle Flog the exact translation of the German word is a face in need of a fist.

Yeah, three other thing that is really interesting for this whole experience is when waitin when Matt started shaming him for his tactics as like this is not professional no journalists would do this, those kinds of things. He would duck his shoulders and cross his hands over his garage and looked down, and he he assumed the physical posture of shame. And so I I served in the Peace Corps in Kurdistan, and, um, the Peace Corps volunteers I know would collect call locally. They call this an age a shame circle where, like the older women who would be referred to as a J's, would, um, if a student had been acting out from long, long time at school and was like just resilient against correction, they would bring him into the school. They bring his parents in with him,

and then all the teachers would just like shame him in front of his family to make him realize this conflict, the severity of his behavior and how it was affecting the community. And how is this is this is reflecting on your parents. This is afflicting on your school. This is reflecting on your classmates. This behavior does not belong here, and because of that with in green tactic as a woman there, if I had a man harassing me, I could go to him and say you. Where's your shame? Why are you talking to me like that? Do you want me to tell your mother I'm a teacher? I'm respected in this community and I'm working for free. And you're talking to me like that and he would immediately stand down. I don't have that kind of power in America coming back to the States. I feel less safe because I have no social power to pull Shame on someone who is acting out like that.

And so I think, with the Nazis in this situation, we need to find that shame trigger. I think that shame is more powerful, then punching them. I think we need to find the moment where they like their Linus. Whatever That far out moral, Linus. And we need to call them on the spot and make them feel ashamed of themselves. E you did that when you told him no journalist would do this. I think that he felt shame. I am a white male journalist. Another clearly intelligent white male journalist is telling me Homie, I'm ashamed of you right now. I think that what you said to him cutting deeper that anything that I as a black woman. I have ever said something about you The way that you appealed to him, I feel like a cock him so deep

because he abused you as a person who's a matter. And so it's so Mike. So I guess I'm gonna roll off of both. You said because I agree with both of you. And I guess my thesis on Should we punch Nazis? Is I in my position as someone who sees Nazis is an existential fucking threat and everyone who supports him as existential threat to me in mine, I will always punch Nazis. I think they must be destroyed. I think that perhaps getting rid of them in a way that doesn't involve me punching and then later, if things go really bad doing further than punching Nazis, it would be better for the world. I think that a war with Nazis is going to result in a lot of people getting hurt. I don't want people to get hurt, but I have no power to make that happen because they don't see me as a person. I can talk at them all day and nothing I do will change anything they believe it won't make them be any less dangerous to me. So if I'm in a situation Ryan face to face with a Nazi, I cannot guarantee that he will walk away with an intact face.

It's what we don't. But if we don't want to punch Nazis, if as a society we want the Nazis to not get punched, we want him to disappear. It's not on black people. White people need to shame Nazis. And the thing is, it's starting. It's kind of starting. I think they're starting part of the reason there weren't ah 1000 Nazis here Is that for the last year, any time one of these dumb fuckers stands up and starts yelling racial slurs at someone, we all got real good cameras in our pockets and people are like, Hey, I'm gonna videotape this guy screaming at someone because they're wearing a Puerto Rico shirt and their life gets dismantled. So keep doing

that. Well, it's ruined like it's like when one of your siblings acts out and everybody kind of looks at you at the party and they're like, Go get your get your get your own, you will you go like white people deal with your own, and that's

I think that's a really good point. Those are all really in points. And I think that that's as the whitest man who's ever lived white people. A Zaveri white man. We it is. It is incumbent upon One of the reasons my hear of this protest is that British guy who just tried to leap over the cops to punch a Nazi

was the

issue. Because there's nothing whiter than the British they are. They're clear, very window. Um, it is it is incumbent upon us, tow stand up and like, confront these people because it shouldn't get too punching. They should be. And that's part of the problem. These people existed. Everyone. None of these people were not Nazis before Donald Trump won the election. But the 2016 election made them think that they could get away with being open about what they were,

and nobody nobody in their communities called the monitor. No one in their families has pulled them aside and said, Honey, we're gonna take you to the hospital because this is a fucking problem.

Cutting off your trust fund. Yeah, because you're bringing shame upon, which is how Richard Spencer does this shit, but like it's make racist afraid again is a great slogan, but it doesn't mean beating up Racists. I mean, that might be what it gets, too, if shit descends enough. But it starts with just making them scared to be racist. You can't cure him. It is not. It's no one's job. Matter how white you are. It is no one's job to cure racist. You can't.

You can't cure anyone of anything, but it is your job to make them feel bad about it. And I do think we have not gotten the Laurent yet, So I do want to ask the wrong a simple question. Is it better to hit Nazis or two? She Is it more effective as a tactic to hit Nazis? What a shame. Okay, well being this is my first oh, marching protease I went through. I was there when I went through a variety of emotions. So when I first started it the train station. By the time we got to the site, I wanted to probably arm every last one of, but, ah,

as I sat there and I watched and actually started to observe what was going on from the complete full circle. I came to Ah ah realization by the end of it that into the record, what everyone's saying, it's really not my fight. It is my fight when I'm confronted with with them, you know, then it's my fight when it's me and not see, you know in a little, you know, in a store, you know, anywhere else, anywhere on the streets, in uniform, you know, it's my fighting.

Then I were punching us, you know, But as far as a worldwide, uh uh, maybe not cure. But, um, remedy for now is that you have to buy the best mate. Otherwise you would feel guilty about it. And that's the only way we can. There's nothing we can do. We could support and give you examples of how he feels. You can go forward with how we feel about it, but it's really I think that was the biggest takeaway take from this is a I was singing. Everybody here was kind of take the stage and say, Well, we got this. Yeah,

and I was able to say it back right now is to

survive. Yeah, and just as it's gonna take men starting the roots of the patriarchy to destroy it because it grows from us. You know, it's the thing that I

thank you queer eye for all the work that you've done for that this year,

there's a phrase that I may have heard it. I don't know. Maybe it's something that I popped into my head. Or maybe it's something something said, probably something someone said I was, um it's when I'm talking to other men about this, about male bullshit. And when I'm talking to white people about white people, bullshit the thing that I try to say because you know, like people always want to respond with. And I heard it at the protest like was I? We said something about cops never being on our side, and this one was looking well, I'm like, I don't give a shit. The cops are on my side and at some point even said not all white, like I'm not here to deal with you,

but But the thing that I want to say to those people is listen, I'm aware that, like the patriarchy isn't my fault or your fault or your fault, I didn't make the patriarchy was born into it. And I am aware that white supremacy isn't your fault or your fault. You didn't make white supremacy. You were born into it. But it's your fucking responsibility, and it's my fucking responsibility. The patriarchy won't disappear without men being like, Hey, we're wearing our fuckin locker room and some guy talks about starts talking about the shit that people call locker room talk in her leg. Shut the fuck up like that won't go away until men are like You don't get to be among us unless you stop this shit and it's the same thing with white people. That's a really good racism gets killed by white supremacy will die when white people stop feeding it. And I think that's the point we want to end on because I can't think of a better line and on, and I think everyone for joining.

And I will now selfishly note that our website is behind the bastards dot com and our instagram and Twitter is that bastard's pod. I convincing anything else in this on, So I will just say, buy a bag of Doritos and watch Downfall. The movie where Hitler dies in a bunker. Just

do that. And also read some books, rear whatever those go in, educate yourself by material by black authors. Go read. So you want to talk about race? Go read.

Read the invention of the white race. It's a long, dense read. Give it, Give

it Unlike read some bell hooks. And like, Yeah, I don't like also like I'm gonna throw. This is Bridget. I'm just gonna put a little plug in. Like don't put that shit on black women, like, go on the Internet, read books, you know, don't expect, like, white people have to dismantle this shit and figure this shit out. Talk to your cousins. Whatever. Whatever it takes,

it isn't our job. And like, don't put shit on people of color who already or just like trying to fucking survive, as you said or at the very minimum, pay them, pay them? What's your paper towels snapping? Because high. And I just said something very, really Well, I'm actually fine people. Somebody who like hey, papal somebody who meets the fucking money because I guarantee you there is a woman probably woman of color out there. Who is teaching. Learning like shepherding people into the the rage is the righteous path, and she could probably use a little bit of a papal blessing.

And I'll just say, If you if you're ah, white woman, you're curious about this coming from me evangelical conservative perspective of unlearning your internalized racism. I'd like to recommend the work of caress Adele, who's a student at Bubo right now, and she's on Twitter under that name, and she tweets a lot about the stuff that she's red and the experiences that she's gone through and educating his wantonness. And it's been really quality stuff.

So read up, do some reading, get out in the streets when you can do some activism, support the things that you can support and stay at a reasonable a level of angry to be productive. And when you're too tired for all of that and when it's just time, take break via peg Cool ranch Doritos on. Just just have a nice a nice little chill sesh. And this has been behind the bastards and I've been Robert Evans, and I love about 40% of you. Baja Mar is the newest resort destination in the bombs just a short flight from the U. S. And 15 minutes from the airport. Comprised of three Lux oceanfront hotels, Grand Hyatt SL s and Rosewood, Baha Mar features 40 world class restaurants and nightlife spots. 11 pools the largest casino in the Caribbean, plus golf,

tennis, a spot and more. To book your stay and explore winter specials, visit Baha mar dot com. That's Baha mar dot com. Hey, put on some beetles. No, no, The Stones. How about super? Come on, you gotta play biggie. Maybe some Katy Perry Taylor Swift. Come on. It might be time for another episode of Arrivals.

Rivals is a new podcast that explores famous music feuds of the past. The present. Join me, Steven Hyde and Me Jordan run Talk as we go blow by blow for the best music beefs and then debate Who deserves the upper hand? Pick a side and may the best band win tune into Rivals. A weekly podcast from I heart radio. Listen and follow rivals on the I heart radio app, apple podcasts or wherever you listen.