attach you lose detach. You gained that simple phrase and along with the phrase yoga for the intellect on a little pamphlet in a hotel in Southern California, I was there with my wife for a weekend, lured me into a session with a guy that looked like one of those guys did the airports with their kind of monk garb. Few possessions may have some wooden beads, and and that's what I was. Look out on this pamphlet at this resort of all places with the phrase yoga for the intellect and the phrase attach. You lose detach you gain so much of me wanted to dismiss. This is kind of Ah so Cal Woo think. But I was. I was really intrigued by this phrase, yoga for the intellect, kind of discipline or exercise for the mind. And I was so intrigued that I ended up going to this seminar and my wife and I were the only ones there. We got to meet this guy, Joseph Emmett. It was,

for all intents and purposes of modern day monk, but from Texas, of all places where we're from and we got to chatting and he actually is cousins with someone that we knew one of my wife's friends, and it obviously begged the conversation of Okay, So how did you grow up in Houston, Texas, of all places? When and found out he grew up in D. C for much of his life and find himself is a as a monk following a Indian philosophy. And I use the word philosophy because it's very different than what we would call a religion. Because it is really like a school of thought. And the school of thought that you learned about that day was Vedanta. This 5000 year old ancient school thought that is, since it's as the source of of Hinduism and Hinduism being the source of Buddhism and and Zen Buddhism. So all of these Eastern philosophies go back to this this kind of source of Vedanta. So we got chatting with this guy Joseph,

and it was so fascinating because as a creator, the builder, there were so many things that he would articulate that I knew deep down. But I had never articulated things like that concept of whatever you're attached to that attachment actually repels it from you and whatever you're attached to causes you to actually cling to it so tightly, like holding something you love in your hands too tightly and actually restricting it. Who's just a an entire afternoon filled with these very simple explanations of simple concepts that were just deep beneath so many other thoughts and things that had gone through my mind for years and years prior. I loved it so much that stayed in touch with Joseph. And when I started to think about the the concept of the podcast and following the mental journey of creation and thinking about things that have caused me so much stress in life, as well as thoughts and practices that have that have really unwound so much stress, I immediately thought of Joseph, who is the most carefree, stress free individual. And it's not an act he genuinely actually is. After 20 years of him following this the school of thought and and practicing this philosophy daily, it was only fitting to have him on the podcast, to talk a little bit about what he he practices and what he believes is is the key to the living Ah,

full on really stress free life. So before warned this conversation is unabashedly philosophical, and that's kind of Ah, that's kind of what makes Joseph so interesting. So let's get into it below the line is brought to you by play cast media. It is the simplest way to set up a professional premium podcast from Homer office. Go to play cast media dot com and get their premium podcast in a box. Deliver right to everything you need to save me Months and months of trial and air. I probably bought the wrong equipment three times over the course of a year and 1/2 thinking of doing a podcast before I got it right. With play cast basically one click Tobi and Boom, you're clicking record. It's that simple if you want all of the equipment, all of the info in setting up everything you need. In one simple Kitt play, cast media is the place to go. I've never sounded better in my entire life.

I usually hate my voice, but I love it with Well, I don't know if I love it, but I can stand it with clay cast. Let's put it that way. Having a professional sound studio in your home or office has never been easier or more straightforward than with play cast. Check them out. Play cast media dot com and tell them James ST So let's get into what, Joseph? Johnny, Kick it with the music. This is below the line. Jessica.

Hello, James.

How are you, sir?

I am doing good.

And, ah, are you drinking anything right now as we do this at this interview remotely. And listeners forgive us if there are any issues with, uh, with are technology during this episode, I am not quite good at these remote episodes yet, but I am hopeful that this one will be worth worth all of the trials at ah to bring you a digital rendering of of Joseph. Um, yeah. What are you drinking right now?

I am having a cup of black citron tea from my mother's covered, uh, which my dad likes to keep around his house. And, um, yeah, my parents just left for a trip to Paris, and I'm utilizing their their dining room table here and drinking their tea to talk

to you. That's nice. And I'm also drinking some black tea that day you gave me the heads up on what you wanted to drink during this episode. So that's that is what we're sharing. Um, and where are you right now?

Yes. So I met my folks place in Houston, Texas. Um, and, uh, we live about 25 miles south of here and Sugarland. But I often come to my parent's house during the day. Um, and, uh, that's what's happening today.

Well, we'll get into a guy from Texas moving around the world to India thio study to study a, um, an ancient philosophy and here in a little bit, um, and the story behind that. But one of the things that I'm so eager to ask you is a question you told me one time that you like to ask people when you're wearing the ah, the monk garb at an airport or or sitting an airplane. You like to ask people what is your world view? And I am so interested to hear you tell me the answer to that question for you. What? Just what is your world view?

Well, before I get into it, um, I should say that it's actually more fun when I'm not wearing the uniform. Um, because that kind of gives it away. And, um, it's and it's usually on a long on a long flight. Um, you know, after five or six hours sitting next to someone, you eventually start talking and saying, you know, So what do you do and and all that? And it's actually something I picked up from a professor 25 years ago. Um,

and I always asked, Well, you know, I say, I'm a worldview analyst and people say, Well, what is that? And that gets to the conversation of wealth. What is your world view? When you wake up in the morning and you throw your feet out of the bed and stand up, you're experiencing something and you know, what do you reckon that is? Um, it's fun. It's really fun. And and,

um, as a much better conversationalist than me, I know that you would, uh, you would really appreciate that the responses or sometimes, uh, as if a person has never thought of it, which is always really interesting. Um, sometimes the response is some Campbell soup can worldview that a person was given when they were 10 years old and just hold on to it and and kind of speed it to you. And, um, another time it could be I'm taking notes. I mean, someone who you would never suspect, um,

sitting there in business, casual, like me or or whatever. Um, it drops, you know, amazing, profound thoughts. So it's always a really, um good conversation.

Do you remember what was the most profound answer that question that you can recall. Were you ever blown back Later? Backed by any?

Uh, yeah. I mean, one that specific one is Ah, gentleman who, um who sat down next to me and I actually offended him. Sort of not really in quotes. I had seen this this sort of this elderly travelling group in the Delhi airport, and and, uh, this man sat down next to me, and I assumed that, um, he, uh, was part of the group. So I was like,

Oh, so where were you all going? And he was like, What do you mean, all of us? And I said, Well, aren't you with the travelling group? And you like, what do you think I'm an old man who is funny. It started off like that, and it ended up being one of those conversations where, um, you know, 15 hours later, we landed Newark,

and we hadn't even told each other our names yet. And we've just been talking and for the whole time, Cool. And, um, he, um he was basically saying that the world is governed by subjective laws of life and living. Um, just as as the external nature is governed by external laws. And and then he went into this just profound. Um, uh, recitation of basically from the ancient Greeks and really early thinkers about what these laws of life are, which is, of course, very similar to the Dante and what what we do and study,

um, which we call it Sonata in a Dharma, which is eternal principles that govern life. And, um yes. So what he was talking about was it was just, um, amazing. To me, he was much more talking from a classical Western point of view. But to see all of the similarities in the truth. And of course, as we know that the truth is one and SAGES call it by various names. So that's one. But I mean, there have been many where I kind of remember the person and divide more than I do the specific philosophy. But that one was amazing. And and that that man let on to some really great things in our work is just a really memorable

where was can ask where he was from. If you remember,

I do. So he he is. Ah, he runs the Iran the Henry Crown Fellows Program at the Aspen Institute. Um and, uh I mean, it just happened to sit next to me on the plane, and, uh, his name is Keith

Berwick and keeping you waiting for that question his whole life.

No, but he gets it. But the reason he had some lunch answers because he's a great, very highly regarded teacher for, you know, leaders and CEOs around the world. And, um, if Keith if you're listening Hello, Um, and I'll definitely send in this. But, um, yes, sir Keith is ah, he's been running that that program at the Aspen Institute. Basically,

they hand if leaders to come in bathing in the eternal principles of life. Like I said from ah, he does a lot of Plato and Aristotle and the's classical western thinkers to kind of bring out these these deeper tenants that govern our lives. And he ended up getting Vedanta Treatise, which is swamis book, which I know that you're that you have And, um And he called me and said, This is great. We'd love to have swarming That ended up with Swami Ji being at the Aspen Ideas Festival in 2008 which was a really amazing experience. So that one always strikes me as one of the more remarkable, uh, airplane conversations.

Yeah, well, in the Aspen Institute is, um, would an institution that is such a and that's a cool turn of events for four swami do to get invited there. Well, I want to touch and I want to get into Madonna trees. And by the way, just in general, ever since my intro episode where I talk about, um the why and what of this podcast people and I and I mentioned my interest in and Vedanta I'd say I'm I'm heavily influenced by at least my modes of thinking are influenced by probably equal parts western and and actually probably 80 20 western in but the 20% that's Eastern. I you know not many people that you know what Vedanta is And we're gonna get into that, um, as well. But real quick, in turn, in terms of the eternal principles of the West in the East.

Um, that you're just talking about, Can you compare and contrast? Um, the two sides of of philosophical thought in you on a very high level way. But what would you say if you and Keith there sitting next to each other, where you would have common ground or between Western and Eastern philosophies and where there would be potential departures from one another?

Ah, yeah. Well, I mean, um, it Keith is is is ah, wizard. And I'm sure he's fully versed in both East and West. Um, but I just know that the West Western thing is more of his tool, you know, his his his particular tool of choice. Um, but yeah, the Western world. The Western philosophies, I think,

are excellent in ethics and morality and personal freedoms and democracy and all of these concepts that have to do with life in the world more. And it was Eastern, um, Vedanta kick, Uh uh, based philosophies. Um, I tend to not be as limited to just the world and this this waking state of consciousness that we experience it. It takes into account much more deeply the dream state of consciousness and the deep sleep state of consciousness. And, of course, the fourth state of consciousness, which is called toria um which is spiritual enlightenment, which is about transcending this limited, ah, waking state that in that way it's it's, um it seems to be a much more comprehensive. Um

uh, interesting sort of idea. Yeah, this is a total generalisation from a, um a new bin myself. But would you say it's kind of It's kind of the western side of things is rearranging the world around us and and and kind of maybe collectively transcending by rearranging the world around us and seeing it properly versus in Eastern or and and for listeners Ah, Vedanta. The adage is that Ah, Hinduism is our Buddhism is Hinduism made for export has moved from India to China. China to Japan and Hinduism is largely based on on Fido antic principles. And Vedanta, um predates Hinduism and ah, and in many ways is kind of a source text for four Eastern philosophies in many ways. And so when thinking about the to it when you say a kind of trance, a transcendent fourth ST, Um, is that kind of moving beyond this rearrangement of the world around you, but kind of a rearrangement of the world, I guess, for lack of better words within you towards 1/4 state.

Yeah, it's It's, um it's not just about life in the world. It's about something higher state beyond this, this state of existence in that book. Vedanta Treatise. I'm sure you remember. There's a point where one of the there's a number of Western philosophers that air quoted who were actually doing this differentiation. Um, uh, I forget Schopenhauer and Schiller and a few of these guys, but one of them calls, uh, Western philosophy. A dwarfish kicked me in the presence of a majestic Titan you talked about. Well, uh,

this is kind of funny. I don't remember which guy that is often, but, um, it's them saying it directly. Um,

it iss it is. Um, you know, it really has only been in the last 100 or so years that a mainstream audience can consume both, um, in in this type of way. And so it is. Ah, it's a unique time. Where there is this union between them that can happen in And, you know, someone that just wants to read about both Or you look it up on online and I kind of have, ah, a comparison of perspectives right next to each other in in your spare time. It's pretty, pretty remarkable. And I'd say,

Ah, Swami Ji's book is and is thinking as nine or 10. So is several, Um, they're really great. I have not read them all, but it's a great place to start, but I know that we could spend a lot of time on that. Come the comparison. Ah, angle. And that's I think it's not a great use of, um, not a great use of time for this for this conversation with you. I'd love to know a little bit more about you and your your journey to this. Um,

and maybe it's maybe it's a part of one of the questions that I ask people. Um, I am so excited about your answers to this question because you are, Yes, you might be sitting in Houston, Texas, in the living room that I can, um, envision easily. But, um, from Houston Thio growing up their toe. The Houston are the version of you that sitting there right now, I know a lot has changed. Um, what are three stories that have helped shape who you've who you've become?

All right. Um well, uh, being a fan of the podcasts as I am, um, I turned on your recent one with Peter. Right? Is his name Uh,

the coat? You're good. Peter Cronica.

I listen to the 1st 20 minutes of ah of Peter talking, and I was laughing because obviously I thought about, you know, what would I say to James when he asked for three stories? Uh, and, um, the 1st 1 It was almost uncanny what Peter was saying, and it's great, because it's sort of it's It's always good to know that, um, that you're not the only person who's done something or had a thought in life. And we're probably, um you know, there's nothing new under the sun. It's great. And,

uh, and so I'll start with my first story, which is is is really a love of a question. Um, which is what was there before the universe.

Yeah.

And, uh, this is you know, I remember being 10 11 12 years old. For some reason, I always think about that age. I don't know. It could have been earlier, but we were living out in the country in Round Rock, Texas, before Del was there, So it was really proper country. And, um uh, I don't know. I just associate that time of life with this thought about I had a really long bus ride in the morning and, uh um, I used to be outside a lot and I would ask this question, You know, what was there before the universe, and

how old were you when

you say I think about, you know, 10 11 somewhere in there. Interesting. And this question, what's interesting about it and the reason I bring it up is a crucial Sze story of something shaping me is because I wasn't sitting there like banging my head trying to get an answer. That's not what was going on. I love the question that the question put me into some sort of ah position that I liked I that I enjoyed that was very calm and simple. It was a simple, still calm state of mind because Of course, there's no answer. Right, But at the time, um, it's like a Cohen, you know? So,

um and then I know I began to notice that, you know, certain environments and certain times of life, uh, would kind of allow me toe access that question. And then it also became not just a question, but what was there before the universe. And if there if there is something before the universe, where was I and who am I? And And what about me? Huh? Exists irrespective of the universe. Because for one thing, that I just could not get my I could never arrive. That was, um,

to completely negate existence to completely negate the the business. So as Peter said, laughing, he said even that nothing is something, you know. And, uh, I mean, honestly, it back to the world view. What is my world? Do you question? One of my favorite answers is that nothing is something. So

you're gonna have to explain that to to me. What? Tell me more.

Well, I mean, you know, you want the business is not something that we can negate. You can't get around the business. The fact that things is. I'm saying it that way on purpose, right, Including us. And it's it's impossible that you can. They gave your own existence. Uh, you may conceptually do it, but in the deepest heart of your heart. Uh, and you're the core of yourself. You are that pure,

existent, eternal, infinite principle, which may seem from our point of view, like nothing but as Peter so beautifully said, uh, this morning on the podcast, when I was listening, he said that nothing. It's something. And it's absolutely true. And so if that question kind of more from what was there before the universe to what is it that exists? What is existence? How is it that things exist in the first place? Why is there something in the first place? Whereas there could have just as easily been nothing,

Um, which again? Peter referred to Heidegger. And it's amazing. I was It's exactly, uh, what was such a crucial thoughtful for me. What is that very existent principle. And

do you mind telling me telling me a little bit more, Um, about ah, about that in or the color around Heidegger as a philosopher?

Yeah. I mean, Okay, Heidegger, And is that all that I know enough to know? I don't know anything about him. Uh, I have a good friend who did a study of Heidegger, and I remember reading his papers and having my head spin. But his his basic question was, you know, why should things exist versus not And, um I don't I wouldn't even attempt an answer, James, But, um but it's a profound question, and the fact is,

there had to be in business for things to be. So, actually, I'll tell you this. My

eyes it kind of saying, there's we look around and the way we obviously see that something is using something is is is here, Um, and to try to imagine nothing before it is still a version of of something, Um, if for nothing else, the cradle for which something can can come from, Um, in therefore is ah, like a cradle is something, Um, am I following it?

Yeah, it's it's like, sure it's pure potentiality. You know, um, it's it's total fullness, complete fullness. Before anything came to be and, you know,

and I'm gonna I'm gonna put I'm gonna put this in the intro for this episode, by the way, that were unabashedly you know, it's not Ah, the phrase. Oh, it's you getting to Phyllis off. We're going to get on a batch of little soft on this conversation. We absolutely

should. You know, the later on there were so many things in life that sort of corroborated this for me and kind of reinforced it and, um, shed

new light on it and buy it, Buy it. Do you mean just the love of the question

and that that particular direction of thought into that whatever that business is? Um and, um, in me or in everything and what it is. And, you know, I read somewhere that the someone called it the plenum void. I love that another the plenum plea no means full. You know the full void. What a concept. The absolutely full nothingness.

Well, incredible. What's going through my mind is in music you if the the spaces between the notes or Justus, important as the notes themselves. And it's that nothing. This the nothingness Before you hear the first notes the nothingness in between the notes, they are strategically and critically important. Um, for the notes, tohave there I actually have their ah, intended impact and you can't disconnect them. If you jammed all the notes together, it be cacophonous. Um, and

not only not only between and before and after, but during the notes And also that silence is there, which is the support of it. The entire

thing. The absence

of, uh, that is the changeless. Yeah, that is the changes business that changeless sub stratum. Ah, at the base of everything. And it is, um, you can't even say it's one in Vedanta that the full description of the Dante's actually add Vita Vedanta I'd write that means non duel. So it's the ad, right? The Vedanta is the study of the non dual reality. So there's no there's nothing other than that, but to say it's one might it might give you an idea that it's like a giant sphere or something, You know that they they put it in the negative and they just say it's non dual. There's nothing other than that.

So just like the silences before endearing and after the music, it's its underlying every note as well. Um And, um you know, uh,

any by the way, this is Ah, I'm smiling because this is also your answer or that this first story is indicative of this. Um I love this stuff, and I think I love this stuff because I love similar, maybe similarly to you. I love the presence of the questions that make that it is. It has nothing to do with the answers. But if an audience, if someone is listening and they require answers, um, then this is This is going to be extremely frustrating or off putting. Um, but if you love question in the end and in love, the fact that their questions out there that do not have answers but may be inching towards the answers can still be just, um, a lot of fun.

Then then that's that's where these conversations can, uh, can really come to life and become so enjoyable. But if you're looking for closure, these air, uh, I know, at least for me, I have to shut that part of my brain that you desire for closure, shut that part of the brain off and just be okay with this is going to be a revelation and how little I know more so than an education on what I can grasp and then utilize in the next hour of my life. Yeah, but okay, so I I diverted. So you're saying you're the answer to your world view is kind of in this, uh, this story of, ah, that shaped your life.

Yeah. I mean, I think probably the whole discussed the world view is, um um, is that that that that that that nothing is something that at the core of our personality there is the existence, uh, self, as we call it in Vedanta Capital s. And, uh, our entire lives, consciously or unconsciously, are an attempt to move back towards that. So in a sense, it's our original nature. Now, I didn't know all this in the first story,

right In the first story, I'm 12 years old. I'm just enjoying, uh, putting my head into that thought space because the thing is, it's by nature singular. So it's It's a naturally calming, um, still point that you reach in your mind just by thinking about this, As you say, Answer this question. Right. So it was just an exercise that I enjoyed. It wasn't just, you know, sitting around.

I used to play. You know, a lot of tennis with my father. My dad was amazing, and he still is. But he was amazing and that, uh, he would spend so much time somehow he would come home in the afternoons and play tennis with me a lot. And, umm, you know, I remember those those times, you know, surrounded by the fences of a tennis court where the world is sort of shut off and I'm displaying a game. But the mind is sort of reveling in that that thought or or for that matter, riding in a car with my mother just,

you know, any sort of really safe space like that where everything else is taken care of. And you can kind of just drop into that, um, that thought, um, certain environments do that, or the long bus ride or the walk in the country by myself or whatever it is. Um, and it was more just there wasn't necessarily as clear a statement is that nothing is something but thinking about the very existent principle that's underlying creation, whatever that is, whether it's full or void or whatever. Um, it was supposed kind of my, uh, worldview and,

uh, and I guess, you know, early practice, though it was quite unconscious,

right? Well, it's there's something to be said about. Yeah, this, um it can feel tempting to think that you you want to be in control, and that is that is, um, the ultimate place to be. But oftentimes in our lives where we were, where we we're the most fulfilled or happiest or most peaceful is when we weren't in control. We don't have to be in control. We were the six year old in the back of of the car with your parents. You were absolutely taken care of and not needing to be under this kind of illusion of of Ah, pretty ah, pretty juvenile delusion of this thing called control, which isn't attainable toe to begin with.

Um, sure, but the there's Yeah, there's something really profound there of of being able to ask a question that's so big that just says, Oh, you don't need to find the answer or I don't need the answer. Ah, at all. I think you all of sciences is essentially, um, science is just predicting the future and or trying to control it, and I think that that is. Um when I first heard that that perspective, it totally blew my mind. I thought it was just this this noble pursuit of of progress, and then you really look at any scientific endeavor was essentially one of those two things.

Predict the future or control it and do a better job of that. Whereas the these types of questions or this type of philosophy. And I want to ask you why you didn't feel like something around you and Houston, Texas could help answer some of these questions. But, um, but there is something There is something, um, comforting. I could see as a 12 year old auras. Ah, 32 year old to sit back and say I don't need to predict or control the future. Um, they're questions that are so big that remind me I don't need to be in control. That's really interesting.

Yeah, I mean, the word Ostrom. I mean, we'll talk about the Austrian, I'm sure, but the word Ostrom means a refuge. So it's It's a place that is

structured, and but what is a nostrum

for Lisa Nostrum is an Indian monastery basically on dhe, the Austrian my study in under my teacher is called Vedanta Academy, and the idea of a nostrum is to create a space where, as you say, um, of course, you're safe. But beyond that, everything is as much of the worldly considerations as possible or removed. So there's a uniform and there's food and there's there's you can walk to the exercise room and there's a yoga whole. You know, everything's done toe liberate your mind to be able to indulge in this higher thought that we've been trying trying to point that. You know, Um, so it's it's really it's, um it's about we call Vedanta a lot yoga for the intellect, right?

It's like you go to the mat to do your yoga every day for the sake of the yoga. For the sake of putting your yourself in that space physically and mentally, and Vedanta is is is it the systematic, disciplined effort to put your head on to the transcendental? The incident, the eternal whatever you want to call it as an exercise in itself and that leads to an all is a bit bigger discussion, but it's it's really about the exercise of getting into that that space and what most of us don't have in the world. Most of the time, it's thought space to consider these things, right. So, um, you know, obviously when I had all the time in the world is a 12 year old. It was It was, you know,

easier than being a person with responsibilities in the world, which, you know, made the awesome such a wonderful place for me when I eventually found myself there. Because I got to sit in that higher thought and and more than that, um, understand it from more. About what? What role? It actually played in my life. But I don't know, maybe I'm getting ahead

of it, you know? Well, real logistical question. Do you have to pay to be a part of it? How do you How does it financially support itself?

The Ostrom is a charitable organization in India And check. I think some large percentage of the students do not pay, and it's supported by people that wanted to exist. There is a suggested a suggested donation at the time. When I first went to the Ostrom in 97 the suggested donation for three years of life and education and room and board and everything with $6000 which I didn't add at the time, and it didn't matter. But I mean, think about that. You know, for three years of life,

$1000

and you can literally walk into that place with, you know, the clothes on your back and everything is taken care of. If you're a person who wants to sit and reflect in a disciplined, systematic way on Vedanta, Um, it's it's for it's for seekers that want that opportunity.

Well, if I ever go broke Oh, I'm glad to know that I have, ah, refuge there where I'll just plead my case to make it make it with my family. But, um, the, um the backdrop of you asking these questions feel like I have to ask as a as someone as a Texan, um, a a white guy from Houston that, um, that is going you asking these questions that I imagine if it's like where I grew up in Dallas, kind of WASPy No. It is heavily Protestant, and, ah,

and part of the Bible Belt. What was Did you were you already asking these of theological um, students of theological masters, off of pastors, priests, a religious figures, or did you go straight thio, um, Eastern philosophy.

Yeah, well, that's a good bridge. I can. The second story will fit in here That I had in mind. Um, So, um yeah. I mean, that being said, I was just a normal 13 year old, but we moved to D. C. Uh, in eighth grade, and I went to high school in D. C.

Um, which was definitely transformative in terms of a lot of different types of people. Um, which is always good for, um, questioning your world view, Um, and shaking it up a bit. Um, I won really distinguishing point. And to answer your question directly, I I was I did grow up in the church, my parents or elders in the Presbyterian Church. Um, and I always loved church. I always found church.

Very, um, safe. And I I had great thoughts there as well. Usually, Um, and, uh, yeah, I did. I did ask a bit of questions. Um, but there was definitely something, um, that I was looking for, but I didn't know that I was looking for,

you know, uh, the moment. You know what? You're looking for it. The problem is half solved. So, um, I was, uh, working it. A coffee shop called Quartermaine Coffee Roasters and Friendship Heights. Uh, D c um, in high school, and I was having this exact conversation with my manager,

uh, Michael Spinner. And I haven't seen Michael Spinner since 1995. So again, Michael, if you're listening Hello and thank you. Because Michael, uh, was listening to me ramble on one day, about of the supreme being and the fact that everything exists and the existence is and all that and he said,

And how old are you? 19.

Yeah, I'm a senior in high school, so I'm kind of 17.

And where Where you borrowing this language of supreme being from?

Yeah, I I don't even know. Actually, What words? I would have been using them. Um, but, um, I'm just I'm just saying those now because I know the language now. Um, I'm not sure how I described it to him, but I was talking to him about fascination with this thought, and he goes, Have you ever read, uh, you know, he didn't even ask me.

I remember, He said you must read this book. And he wrote down, uh, essays in Zen Buddhism by D. T. Suzuki. Yeah. And, um, I don't remember where I got it, but I can still see. The cover is kind of these green and white. Um, design

d t s the man.

The man and I had no idea. Sounds like d T. Suzuki. What? And you've got to remember, James, this is 1995 right? Like, you know, health food stores, air still like in the inn, like tucked away and small shopping centers. And, you know, yoga's just like there's a few yoga studios with, like, a neon light somewhere in the weird part of town.

It it was different, and there's definitely no Google or anything. So a much simpler, slower time and definitely not the information that people have now. So I got this book and this was a crux point for me because until that until I read that book, this reality was still this. This being this business, this this thing that I love to think about what was still like a thing, I was still thinking about it. As you know, a thing. A giant thing with qualities or whatever. Um, maybe that could be proved with the equation on the board. And when I read

about when you say a thing, do you mean like the concept of Of are kind of ah, Western concept of God. This thing?

No, it wasn't in a god contact. It was more just like a maybe more like a physics thing. Like a unified field or something. Yes, as as part of the world as it were. I don't know. It wasn't that formulated, obviously. And what Suzuki did, um, in that book for me. Waas The moment I read about the concept of Satori which is which is the instant enlightenment that he talks about people having. I said, Oh my God, that is an experience. This this being this existent principle,

this is Nece is an experience to be known as an AI through experience. It isn't becoming. It is an awakening. And now it's like a big deal, right? It's on. You'll see bumper stickers with this on it. You know, like people wear T shirts that every yoga studio have something about, like, truth is becoming, you know, But for me as a 17 year old. I don't I can't even describe how Titanic that shift Waas. It absolutely shook the world for me that this thing I've been thinking about is an experience. Um, so

And what did you did you share that with your parents as elders and, ah, Presbyterian Church. Did you share that revelation? Tiffany, with

that, um, you know, I was kind of a typical 17 year old. Probably a bit of a punk. It times. Uh, if they listen to this, they'll be smiling. Um, so I probably wasn't, um, having these conversations with them. Um what time?

What were you like it at 17? Like what? Just ah, spend a few seconds just just describing Joseph Emmett at at 17?

Um, yeah, just, you know, a typical high school guy. And in the late mid nineties and in the Washington, DC, area, I mean nothing, nothing different had great friends. And, um um, everything that goes along with it I mean, nothing that, um, really was unique anyway in any way. And,

um, as I mentioned it, you know, I had a great have a great family and supported and getting a really good education. And, uh, yeah, I mean, the nothing remarkable in terms of this path except that this this thought was there. And I don't know if you ask my friends. I mean, um, at the time, they would probably say that, you know, I tended thio,

um, wax poetic on dhe philosophizes. Maybe even then. But, um you know, um, otherwise just a normal guy.

Yeah. Okay, so you get handed this book or you get recommended that you need to read this book and you have that that, um the this revelation that it it's an experience or can be an experience. Yeah, keep going. That's very, really interesting. I don't, um to really Ah, interesting. Kind of just ah narrative arc of of not having it than having it and and reading or maybe in some way, getting some confirmation or articulation of something you already felt but didn't know how to express. I think in my own in my own path, I a lot of these concepts I think we're not only introduced to me when I was younger by my dad that taught us to meditate when we were when we were little. Thankfully, but But also,

if that's so It's so interesting. Just tow. Have this be this, uh, outsider looking in versus I think, what happens to a lot of it. It's like, you know, an eighth grade. If you're told, you need to read great expectations here when you need to do it, and you're only 14. Um, a lot of a lot of it can be lost on you versus discovering it and in discovering it at the right time that you are, by definition, searching for it.

Yeah. No, absolutely.

That's okay. So yes. Oh, just

what I mean to say, Like, um, it wasn't like a, um there was never, like, a rejection of any world view that I have been surrounded by. It was just sort of this new thing that came and and just kind of clean bowled. May you know, Um, yeah,

all right. And then what happened?

Yes. So, um, from there, uh, it was it was a cascade. I mean, from there, it was just, um My God. You know, where can, um where can I find out more about this state of being that these people were talking about? Because now I'm understanding it as a state of being and, um, a zey ultimate experience that we can achieve, you know,

And and still, at that point, there's there's no, like, philosophical infrastructure around understanding how it fits into the bigger picture, anything. It was just like, Wow, this is a state of being that can be reached. And as human beings, these guys are saying that this is what we're born to. This is the highest peak of a human life. And I was just How do I get there? You know, um and, uh,

you know, lots of great conversations with lots of great people, lots of wonderful books. Um, and, uh, yeah, so going into another story for you, Um, I went to wash you in ST Louis. Uh, and, um, great story. Great school. Yeah,

I don't think I could get in there now, but at the time, I did. And, um uh, I've, you know, with all the other one normal classes, I have a strong leaning towards trying to basically find out how to learn to live a life that takes you in the direction of this higher state of being at the university. Um and, um I mean, with all due respect to wash you and the professors and everybody there, um, I was disappointed. Um, the academic approach is all about information.

It's all about, you know, just reading as many books as possible. Um, and I don't doubt that some of the people there are wonderful teachers and practitioners and all that. But, you know, we read the Bhagavad Gita and four days in one of my classes, you know, and at the awesome. We spent two years on the Bhagavad Gita and seven days a week for five hours a day, reflecting on those 700 verses, you know? So

do you mind telling listeners a little bit about what the baka Vicky it is?

Yes. The bag about Geeta is one of the core books of Vedanta. It's, um, about a 25 100 year old text that has 90% of the concepts of Vedanta are in that book. Um, it ranges from the talking about the transcendental and talking about people that reached the state of self realization that absolute state of spiritual enlightenment. Uh, it discusses how to get to that state. It discusses how to act in the world how to be successful and everything in between. Um and it is.

But it doesn't and it does it in a ah, just interject the fact that it can be read almost as a fictional narrative. It was a competition. Yeah, conversation. I

think it takes about 25 minutes if you read it like a play. And two years of the three year course that Vedanta Academy is that book, because it has so much material to think about and reflect and understand. And it is. It is derived from the tradition of the coupon E shots, which are the original, the downtick texts that came out of the Himalayas 5000 years ago. So there's a flow of knowledge that started in the Himalayas Himalayas. As Americans say here, Um, that goes down to present day, um, and the details about halfway through. Um, so I just you know, that's That's one of many books that we just breezed through in the course, and I just felt like,

you know, I'm just skimming along the surface, and what's really interesting is I want to learn how to live a life that is that is dedicated to a path towards that, That state of being which, um, have been earlier, uh, discovered, you know. And, um So I was there for a year, and, um then I thought, How go to Greeks? Because I had heard about this place in northern Greece called Mount Pathos. And where there are monks still living in caves on this peninsula,

the you have to get a special vi sta four to go, and you have the swear that you're going for spiritually purposes. And again, this is pre internet. Now, you could Google, you know, enlightenment school. And that would be, you know, 15,000 results. But, you know, I didn't even know what to ask for. And so I had heard about this place and I wanted to travel. So I went to Greece and did some courses and went up to Mount Athos.

And, um, it was incredible. I mean, just it's an astounding place, but very few guys spoke English, and it wasn't even in the the tradition that I was being drawn to. I came back, I went to I looked into this monastery and Nova Scotia. Um, I drove out to the Europa Institute and bolder

How are you hearing about in the know the pre Google air? How are you hearing about these different places?

It's a really good question. I don't remember. I think, um I mean, not that I had heard about from a friend in D. C couple years before, and so I just had in my mind that this image of you know, monasteries on the side of mountains over the sea kind of thing, you know, which it is. And it is outrageously amazing. Beautiful place. Um, but the other two, I'm not sure. I think Europa. I must have been talking Thio,

uh, fellow classmates at Wash U and people mention these things. Um, and what I kept saying to people, Woz and to myself, was I want to find a place where I can learn toe live this knowledge where I can learn to live by these higher principles of life in the direction off that the original state of infinite consciousness. And, um so none of the places really struck me. I mean, there are nice people, but nobody really struck me as, um that authoritative. Um, And, uh, Then one day,

the fall of my sophomore year, October. Now, in 1996 um, a girl came into one of my classes and said, There's a swami on campus and, um, he's talking in this building and it's free and you guys can go if you want. And it happened to be on my way home. So I thought, OK, I'll go. And at that point, James, I had seen one, I think,

one documentary about India, you know? And it was like National Geographic, and it was snakes and elephants. And the only swamis or that I saw were, you know, guys sitting there covered in ash with dreadlocks and, you know, smoking, chill ums or whatever. And and, um, there was my That was my level of ignorance about India. And again, India wasn't on the world stage as it is now. You know,

nobody, at least in my world, it as a 19 year old knew anything about it. And, uh, I didn't know a word of the Donta or Geeta. I mean, just that we had touched it. But

for listeners to notes, every few episodes, Jos sends me an email with a quote from someone that that is, um, by any stretch of of any measurement extremely ah, successful founder or investor that's spent on the podcast. And you'll write me notes saying, You re capping a quote saying That's pure Geeta, which I love I laugh every time I see

Oh, it's so

general, I'm not friends of pure Geeta.

Eric, uh, Eric needs Is it Reece? Reece? Reece? Eric blew me away. I've been quoting Erich in my classes for the last since I heard it. Um,

he's here. He's easily one of the deepest thinkers, Um, in Silicon Valley

for sure. It was amazing. I love that part. But I think I listen to that. Went to him twice because it was so amazing. How? He said the most important quality to be successful leader is not attachment, which is pure Geeta. I mean, the gift has been saying that for 2500 years, you know, the most important thing is to have an ideal beyond your selfish interests and function towards that without attachment to the past. Without mama, without excitement in the present Jorah and without ASHA hope or attachment to the future results of your action, the fruits, I mean, he laid out the swami ji calls that that section of the teeth of the blueprint of right action and I mean it.

The way Eric spelled it out was so amazing. Um and, um and And Justin. Justin? Uh, is it Conner? Kent

had Justin.

Come on. Justin was how he was talking about, You know, that when he got the the exit from his company. Uh, he's saying nothing happened. Remember that?

Yeah, they just talked about detachment from results, So he detaching from something specific but detachment, then nonetheless

absolutely pure of Vedanta on gum. Yes. So clearly that we do a lot of work with leaders. Um um and swam BJ does it on a huge global scale. And it's just these these principles of the Bhagavad Gita that that are starting to become more in vogue, I guess, um, and I would imagine will be even more

so. I mean, globally. Yes, it's been it's obviously been a traditional text for 2500 years because of its obvious staying power and the depth within those 700 verses. And I I've only read it. Um, I've only read it twice, and it just Ah, I can't remember the translation that I read, but it is, um, similar to to the Gospels. It is this the best way I think you can describe it of why it's so profound is even in those 700 verses. It's like this, um, narrative technology that could be utilised 2500 years,

500 BC, where they could transmit these principles and a story in a way that you couldn't just transmit. No one would listen to if you rattled off 700 different principles or 100 different ah, disconnected principles or text. But if you if it is woven into this pretty compelling story and poem of of, um, a prince on this battlefield, uh, correct me for any details that I get wrong, by the way, just But you know, it's all woven within. This is pretty compelling narrative of a prince on the battlefield. Having dialogue with is his ah, charioteer. Like it's it is when you and I think this is kind of it's like the example I gave of great expectations.

When you're 14 trying to read something of your massive significance within the Western literature as a 14 year old, when you're compelled to do it or you in Washington University and and four days on the Geeta versus in the mindset of searching and and discovering what's what's within the text. It is so mind blowing. How well so much of this is is is woven within this, um, within this short poem and there's I mean, the proof that pudding's in the inning that we we're still reading in 2500 years later or with the Gospels or the Sutras Buddhism where, I mean, those ideas are lasting longer than any empire that's ever existed in any human structure. Um, right, you know that we know of in in many ways. Okay, So you, um So you heard Swami a swan? What is a swami? What is what is what does the words. What do you mean?

Eso es swami? It means teacher. He's a teacher. Um,

okay. And you heard there's a swami

on the campus. I heard there's a swami on campus, and, um, I, uh, went there and and I was standing outside of the building and, um, swami, part authority this want me, walked by me, and I remember thinking like, it could be this. Want me, but I'm not sure, because that's not what I thought Swamis look like, you know,

because for me walked by and he's our uniform is a duty, which is like a long sheet that we wear and then kind of a long kurta, long top and, uh, just a simple, you know, sandalwood, Moloch around his neck and in a very corporate haircut and walking very tall And and, you know, this is not what I had imagined. So I thought, OK, I don't know if that's the swami or not, but I'll go in.

And what would What had you imagined?

Well, that's what I had said, Right? So I had seen that one documentary. And so I was thinking Swamis were like, um, you know, guys with dreadlocks 20 feet long. I thought I even thought he might be carried in. You know, I had no idea. I mean, I was that level.

Totally yeah.

Ignorant. And the world just wasn't really my world was not showing the India at the time, so I had no idea. Um

well, in similar to the four days on the Geeta when we when we study or get the equivalent four days and theology on on something like Hinduism, It's it. In America in the nineties, it would it would have easily There's a good chance it could have been this cartoonish version of House Ah, 3000 gods and eight limbs and losing kind of thea the depth or nuance and symbolism of of something that it was is really has so little to do with, um, you know, and a eight armed individual. But okay, so sorry to cut you off. You you saw the swami said I could. This guy could be. Could be the swami.

Yeah, and I went in, and, um, for some reason, there were There is only a few students and a lot of professors. I'm not sure why. Um and they introduced the swami and this man stood up, and, uh, he was introduced as Swami Parts authority. He's come from bid on the academy, and hey started, and, um, he started talking and I would say 25 seconds into it, I thought to myself,

Oh, my God, this man is talking about this philosophy from experience and ah, that was just clearer. His day to me, you know? You know in the Bible. It says that everyone's standing around the market and the Farris Cesaire preaching, and a lot of people are giving talks. And then Jesus stood up and everyone listens. And it says, because he spoke as one that has authority. So all I can say is it wasn't what Swami ji said. It was actually really a very down to earth on the ground. Simple lecture, Um,

just giving the basics of Vedanta. But it was the authority with which he spoke that I had never seen. Not in any professor, not in anybody I've met along the way in the last year or so of looking into all this. And so I was floored. And, um you know, then the talks about the wind up and he says, Uh, by the way, I have Ah, a school in India called Anne Ostrom, where I'm teaching people to live this knowledge and, uh, yeah, I mean,

I almost fell out of my chair because that is, it was just uncanny. I mean, that's literally the phrase that I've been walking around saying to people howto find a place to live this knowledge And, um so, you know, the room cleared out and I went up to him and I said, um uh, I would like to come study with you at your institute and, ah, he put both hands on my shoulders and he says, I know, and I know and I must have looked at him, like with some twisted face, you know, like,

oh, my God. Because he goes. And then he says he says, No, no, I'm not psychic or something. Don't worry. But I knew you were gonna come talk to me because you were just staring at him the way I was staring at him. The whole lecture. So, um so that was it. I mean, um, the next day, basically a couple days later,

I informed wash you that, um ah, I would be taking a very extended leave of absence. And, um, about nine months later, I got to the awesome I had Thio. I had to do a couple jobs and get a plane ticket and get there. But I got there. And, um, we have a three year residential course on Vedanta at the academy, Um, which, as I mentioned this 3 65 days a year, there's no brakes.

There's no holidays. It's rigorous. Systematic, Disciplined. Um, course of study, too. Give you a chance to, uh, really deeply absorbed this philosophy into your system and practice it in that in the lifestyle there is. Well, it's very simple. Very communal, um, place and, uh, yeah, so it's it's 4 a.m. till 9 p.m. Every day.

Uh, yeah. Can you walk me through? Is it it is each day, the exact same pretty routinized.

Yeah, every day is the same. So, yeah, for a until nine till 6 a.m. is is the crucial time in India those hours air called Brahma mortem, which literally means time of the gods. Um, And nowadays you can see so many people from so many backgrounds talking about the value of the early morning hours. Um, absolutely. And, uh,

the podcast have mentioned it a couple times.

Yeah, Yeah, I heard him here also. And you know, that's the time when when the veil is the finished. I mean, that's the time when that thought of reality is most easily arrived at, um and you are less prone to indulgence and and action. You're more able to sit with your thoughts and really imbibe this knowledge in those hours. Those air. That's what happens first thing every day. And then there's tea. And then, um, we have yoga and, um uh, then,

you know, physical training. You can their soccer games and basketball in the gym. And, um, it's a really young place. It's it's really wonderful. If you go in the early morning around seven o'clock, you might think it's a sports, uh, institution of some kind. It's so active. Um, it's not like a sleepy Ostrom in India that people might think of, Um, yeah,

and then the day goes on from there we have, of course, three meals a day, and there's another study session. We have lectures every day. Swami Ji's lecture where he teaches. Um, all of these books, like I mentioned the Geeta, is his two years of it. He has some texts that he teaches. The most famous is is Vedanta Treatise, the eternities, which you have, which is an attempt to take all of the ideas from this 5000 year old wisdom tradition and put them in one text in English, from the simplest to the most subtle concepts which is,

you know, you know Oh, add that some of the the remarkable nature of this book is that not only is it bound very uniquely, um, and very easy to follow written quite well, I think part of that is because it's written originally in English. And it's very rare to get attacks like this on Vedanta that is written from someone that studied it for 50 years and, um, and is writing its first edition in English. So it's very easy to to read through, um, for anyone and in English.

Yeah. I mean, Swami is ah, you know, he's got a law degree from London University. He was actually raised on Shakespeare. Um, much more than Vedanta. Um, his father was a Shakespearian scholar. Um so his English is way, way, way better than mine. So definitely written in English. Um, for the English speaking world. Um,

basically, with the idea that for folks that, like most of us who aren't gonna have the time or wherewithal thio go through all of these Sanskrit texts and try to pull out the essence of it, he's done it. And Swamy speaking for am not not a word of that book or any of song. These books was written after 6 a.m. All of his writing was done in those hours because that's according to him. When it was the most perfect Andante treatise, the eternities, uh, took him 20 years. So this is not just a casual text that I firmly believe that it will be considered hundreds of years from now as one of the major milestones in the Vedanta tradition going from the punish, odds turned to the ghetto. T this text it onto treatise um, because of its comprehensiveness. And not only that, but the way it's written.

So the way that book is written, it's not just like whatever thoughts came to mind. He wrote it in a way that was systematic and designed to help the reader reflect, which is one of the crucial, uh, recommendations of how to actually live. The knowledge. How to get it into your system is to actually read about 20% but disciplined in a disciplined way. Question reflect and cogitate for 80% of the time, you know. So that's why it takes years to go through them. But that's how you get into your system. One thing is listening. That's that's called Shrub Ina, um, in Sanskrit.

But the second step is money enough. And that's the really important thing, too. Two onboard these values and and this world view and allow it to actually bring about a transformation is is sitting and reflecting and questioning it, not taking any of it for granted, not just absorbing it, because it's an old book, you know, But because it makes sense to you, then the living it is automatic. Uh, so this is one of the This is the crucial thing at the Ostrom. You know, uh, we move very slowly through this, the knowledge and there's a lot of time for sitting with yourself reflecting over it for years.

And then on top of that, we have group discussions that which are, very, um, again, scientifically designed. Ah, uh, it's not just the free for all conversation, but there's a certain method of discussion where the students get together in small groups and reflect, and then they get together in a larger group and reflect and answer questions. And, of course, uh, Swami Ji was there and available for questions. All the time,

which is I mean, it's it's just ah inconceivably wonderful opportunity Thio learn of from a master at that level, you know? And at the time when I met him, Swami was 70. Um and now he's 92 still traveling the world. We're going to London tomorrow. We're going to meet him in London. We're gonna be with him in India that we're gonna be in with him in South Africa later this summer. Then he's gonna be here in the US and I mean, it's all of these things combined the reflection and the environment of the Ostrom and learning the lifestyle end. Most very importantly, having somebody who's fully living it like that as an example is what it means to have a group in the truest sense. It's not. It's not to have someone tell you what to do. It's more tohave someone,

too, to show the way, you know. And, um, he, um I had no idea about all this when I met him, but, um, that's what it's become and, you know, 20 years on, um, yeah, I gratitude is not the word. I don't have a word for how I feel about the whole thing. But I cannot imagine this life without that

woman. If someone wants to hear directly from from Swami G his nickname, you gun. He was actually just recently on the, uh, on Gwyneth Paltrow. Gwyneth Paltrow's goop podcast. Um, that ah, is there a really big podcast? Um, from a few weeks ago and on so you can hear him on the podcast. The, um I want to touch on how we met real quick. Just a few minutes on on, um, how and where we met.

It's huge shadow toe Cal Amigas ranch, um, owners down and run outside of Malibu or in Malibu. Um, the I was going through, we had just gone through this incredibly, incredibly painful Well, 50% me says it's incredibly painful. Ah, acquisition process and 50% with with selling till Terry and being 50% of me, I think I was Ah, I was, um I recognized, um, at the same time how fortunate we were, but,

um, a spice it to say it was a huge shift from where we thought the company would be just six months prior and and through layoffs and through, um, just some some brain beating moments and and ultimately, um, a sale of of our technology and and, um, and the team members joining this new company. It was just It was a really dynamic time to put it that way. And, um, I took a few days with my wife, Chaney down two to go down to Southern California. Um, believe we drove down there and Ah, and we stayed on the water,

but someone had told us about she had stated the this really cool new place called Callum Egas Ranch, um, up in the mountains, maybe a year or two before. And so we went up there for 23 nights. And instead of a Bible in the end the, um right next to the bed in the drawer next the bed. Maybe there was a Bible in there as well. But there was this book called Vedanta Treatise and open it up and right in the coverages sauce. Um, interesting quotes put it down and may be similar to your experience of of the swami in on campus saying you can come to this awesome and live this knowledge. I saw a little AA pamphlet for yoga for the intellect. And and I had, um, way we 10 church each each Sunday, and it's and it's really reflective,

um, pointing my week and a really important part of my routine as well as, ah, reading Scripture as well as imbibing on everything I can around, um, you know, philosophy, especially specifically people asked, like where where do we consume? Um, different philosophy is the best place. To be honest is YouTube. Just this free library of amazing audio, sometimes visual, but most of the time it's just audio lectures. And and I loved this one philosopher name,

Alan Watts, who is former Episcopalian priest but probably gonna be seen as one of the most, in my view, one of most influential philosophers of the 20 century and one of the forefathers of bringing Eastern philosophy into the West and from the unique lens of of being a former Episcopalian priest. But the long story short it was, I'd probably heard thousands and thousands of hours of of this this guy Alan wants and, um, and he never mentioned Vedanta, but I only put it together years later that he was. He was used, very likely influenced by Vedanta, but just never used labels for for himself, for his philosophies and just he literally would give these lectures. Uh, like someone would would play Mozart for a concert hall. He was just he called himself.

Think he quite literally call himself? Just, uh, um, a philosophical entertainer. Yeah. And so it kind of softened, beat the meat and softened my softened my brain for, uh and, uh, and my perception for something as simple and specific as yoga for the intellect. Like it was just like it had had completely soften me up for, um, for this, this reading of this phrase yoga for the intellect and in San Francisco, um,

love yoga of the physical part of it. But I remember hearing that, um and maybe you can you can tell me this is true. Just that the physical part of yoga it made its way to the West because, um, they could put it on on on TV in the fifties and sixties. And really, in the sixties and seventies, it started to take off as this visual embodiment of of spirituality, and you couldn't couldn't really just put someone reading the back of a get on on TV. And so is that visual representation and medium of television that Ah, that made physical yoga. Um, this kind of exotic eastern import that people took to, but But that four, um,

spiritually minded folks in India. Um, the physical yoga is like Has nothing compared Thio, thio, even Yogi. The term is not really a term for for a, you know, an exercise teacher, but ah, is that true? Is that, you know, is that a small subset of yoga practices is the actual physical side of things. And and the West kind of gets lost on what yoga is truly meant. Um, or what is the term?

Absolutely. Yoga is taken from the Sanskrit root huge, which means to yoke or to connect to join. Uh, just like religion is really gari again. Joined again. Connect again. Buying. So what it means is that we've lost our original nature. We've lost that state of that supreme being. We've lost that infinite ood that we actually are. And the any effort to return to that state is yoga. So, um, there's actually hot Yoga is what is known here at the physical awesomeness and nothing wrong Like I said, we do yoga up. Austin is every day in the office.

ERM, I do yoga as often as I can. But even in even in the yoga sutras, uh, which were written by potentially, which every yoga teacher has to read, you know the second verse to find yoga's yoga chip. The gritty naroda, which is yoga, is the cessation of mental fluctuations. So it's a true yoga is bringing the mind to a still point and experiencing yourself as you really are, which is infinite. So the Austin opposes. The physical poses are a conducive practice for that, but the throughout the Geeta and the pedantic philosophy. The focus is on karma,

yoga, bhakti yoga and Janni yoga, which is using your actions. For others, that's karma, yoga service and sacrifice. The buck to yoga's is surrendering your feelings and devotion towards the higher towards the supreme towards that, that truth and reality towards the self and Janni Yoga is using your thoughts, using your intellect to think of that higher reality of that higher truth because of the principle that adds, you think so you become so if you're constantly thinking about your body, all the time your physical. If you're constantly thinking about your possessions in your bank balance all the time, you're materialistic. If you're constantly thinking about my emotions and how I feel and how everybody else feels, you're an emotional person. If you're thinking about you know what is the,

uh, this astrological theory versus that physics theory and quantum This included. Then you're an intellectual, but a person who is thinking about the self capital s just thinking about the incident. The reality is the truth, the spirit that meant that's what makes you spiritually nothing else. You can be a swami and be materialistic. You can be a banker and be spiritually has nothing to do with what you do. You can be stretching and the most perfect Austin opposes in the world and be a crook. There have been many examples of that. You know, you could be a Vedanta teacher and be a crook, you know what I mean? It has to do with where are your thoughts? So yoga? True yoga is using all of our equipment's to get our thoughts flow in the direction of reality and into that the business that we've been talking about.

And that's why we called it yoga for the intellect that Cal Amigos, um, guest ranch and beach club, where we met. Um, because, um, uh, that's what is really required is to get our thoughts onto the that reality. That's when we get the change. And if a person is introverted enough, um, to think and attend a lecture and intake knowledge, then it is that is the straight the most direct path towards the higher state of consciousness.

Yeah, I think one of the things that I, um, that I struggle with immensely is this future orientation around. I think a lot of of founders or makers or our creators, um, they and many and almost anyone in the startup ecosystem. They are attracted to it because the really resourceful people they by definition, can take the resource is around them. And, uh, almost like alchemy produce something even better. Um, and in many times, that could be impact and change. It can be financial engineering. It It can be just an outcome that did not exist when those those parts were sitting.

There is kind of a one in a one and one. And the summation being being greater than the whole being a greater ah, greater amount than the sum of the parts. And I think the strength and that is that resourcefulness. But the weakness and that is when you're just you're feeding that constantly off. While I could make even more, it could make even more. We can get even further. Aiken combined these even further. And it's like this this, um it can lead to extreme attachment thio the future and extreme attachment to this imaginative future you've created for yourself that then the tiniest little thing that you know dings you off your path really rocks you. And and I think that there's, um there was something so peaceful to to almost bring it back to your first story. There was something so peaceful about, um, philosophy and spirituality.

For me, that was like, I don't need to drive. I don't need to. This future does not depend on me piecing these things together and so much of my story your life to that point was, in many ways I could have I could have I could have seen the narrative as me piecing these things together. Me doing these things when obviously you zoom out and we're not the authors of of almost any of our works, it's It's always so many people, so many things, and so many, even generations before us. It's laughable how little little impact if you zoom out far enough we have on these things. But as as a founder or four people listening, I think I learned this, um, separately.

But it ties into this that most of the time your strengths or your weaknesses, and they're not separate buckets that what you're good at is is in many ways what you've leaned on. Ah, that produces a lot of the misgivings or shortcomings, and your life example would be you are great att at envisioning a future will. The thing that causes you psychological pain and or psychological death, as Eric Reese puts it, is when that future is altered from what you thought it was going to be, or in the most sensitive way being nudged in a different direction than then you have already set your mind to your strength. Yeah, it's it's so it's for me. It was letting go of this future and realizing, OK, I can just I Not only do I not needed Dr, but one I was never driving into, um,

we're gonna get to a whole better place. Better destination if I can. If I can really learn to go with things and detach from from these results, I, you know just so seamlessly can write down his goals for a year or fourth the next five years. Um, it was this and it the yoga, the intellect, But just finish the story we met, I went into, Ah, this class, and it was just my my wife and I, um, And you and I was like, Who is this guy?

This This dude looks, um, like just ah, guy from from Texas. And And we actually had mutual friends. Or your cousin was friends with my wife and college was so, so hilarious. This

Chaney was in Bonnie's

wedding. Yeah, exactly. In this experiment, this this crazy quite literally. Opposite into the world. Yeah, um, philosophy and and concept was delivered. Just do. That looked like someone that I would have grown up with, which was so unexpected. But I think added to, um the intrigue of it just I don't know, there's something something in just going to maybe a similar experience that you had of just thinking was gonna be this this, uh, this guy And,

you know, uh, uh, dreadlocks and, uh, the hell caked with with white powder ended up just being a guy with a business haircut and and, yeah, that was very similar experience for us. But it was, um yeah, it was that term yoga for the intellect. It that's what I had gone to so many yoga classes, um, in San Francisco and found a lot of peace in them. But it was always in the verbal messages within them, and it was like,

Okay, this is the thing. Instead of being an addendum to our this was the whole hour was, uh what was being getting a chance to discuss these? These concepts? Yeah. No, As a great it was a great intersection of lives there that has led toe Ah, staying in touch for years after, and and me reading, vigilant to treat us and handing it out toe actually handed out to every every guest that comes on the podcast.

That's amazing.

So one of the things that I I want thio touch on is something that we chatted about recently. Um, and then we're gonna get to the last question. But something that we chatted about recently was, um you told me is for this phrase that is the work. And, um and I was I was asking as asking you about just, you know, this this podcast and putting it out there and it having the most like, obvious philosophical subtext to it. It's his ah, psychological. The whole podcast is aboutthe psychological journey of creation, but it has a very strong philosophical subtext to it. And and you're putting it out there. And when we were chatting, I was talking about Yeah,

it's just thes thoughts will put them out there that I that I think are profound that if that have really changed my my perspective on things and, um, you know, get to likes or three likes. And then I put a photo of of me and Bill Gates up, and it's got 203 100 likes and and it has this obvious CEO. You know, I don't expect him to have the same, um, the same feedback loop a response. But, man, is it it drastically different. And And I was telling you are you know, what is your experience, But on that and feel like it's just ah,

maybe I should just not even post these things or get off social media altogether and just, you know, just do the podcast. Um, And I said, you have you ever experienced just a lack of response to your teachings and you laughed about it. Do you mind telling me about kind of when I was asking that was going through your mind?

Yeah. So, um, I remembered and I told you the story that you know, I the 1st 10 years of study of Vedanta I was just studying Vedanta. I never even conceived of teaching or sharing. It was simply for me As for myself, Um And then once I got a taste of teaching, I was so inspired. And it's such a wonderful blessing to be able to work with this knowledge all the time and, um, to share it with people. And, um so, uh, you naturally get enthusiastic and you set up talks and you set up classes and you're so inspiring to share with other people and you think everyone's gonna love it. And there have been so many times where I've gone to the hall or I've gone to the classroom or whatever it is.

Um um and nobody comes like literally nobody attends. Um and, you know, I must say things have had shaped up lately, but that has happened. And I remember at one point

I can I ask how how many times have you have you put on an event or class and no one showed up? If you were to put a number on it, and and how many classes you know, total, or what percentage would that be?

Ah, I mean, hundreds hundreds of times where I've gone to a class like like, um, you know, for example, we met. We met at Cal Amigos because I was trying to recreate, um, the residencies, the Vedanta residencies that our organization that we do it at a spa in India called Ananda, and that's really successful, you know? And so I assumed that it would be that way, Cal amigos, but it's it wasn't like that. You know that,

um there people are are not as interested when they're there for a wedding. Thio, listen to Vedanta as they are when they're on top of a mountain in the Himalayas. That on on this spot in India, Um, so lots of times, I would I would go there and there wouldn't be folks. Um, there is a spot that I taught at on the island of Mauritius for a while. Where

for her You get to teach in some pretty epic

places. I know, it's it's Yeah, And there were times there where weeks would go by and nobody would attend the class because people are snorkeling and whatever they're doing, you know? And so, um and then you know, I when I eventually moved to California and started setting up, you know, we'd set up talks and, you know, one or two people would come, And I'm thinking, you know, 50 people would be there. Um and I was telling Swami Ji this one time and I wasn't like upset, but I was just saying like,

this is what's going on, like, what am I doing wrong? And he said he started laughing and slapping his leg and laughing up. Yeah, like staring at the ceiling, laughing hard, you know, really laughing hard. And once He stopped laughing. He just looked at him, he said. That's good. That's the worst.

What did he mean by that's the work,

the whole. The whole thing is the two serve a cause, Um, in our case, the cause of making Vedanta available to the world without attachment without worry about whether people come or don't come or what happens after they come or you'll. I understand that it's in the work that you'll find, Ah, the successes in the work. It's It's the peace and of mind is, is in the work that you're doing and not anywhere else.

You know, guys like bridge. The work is not a bridge to something

else. You know it intense work is arrest. So it the karma yoga, the serving other people. It's in the action of serving that larger cause, serving other people that, um, that's where the yoga happened. It's in the reflection upon the reality that's where the yoga happens. Not what am I going to get out of this? If you're studying and reflecting and a part of you is thinking, am I getting wiser and my kidding for itself realized? Am I getting more enlightened? You'll never get more in light. You know, that's like trying to go to sleep. Um,

S o, uh, that's the work. And Tommy, I mean, says all the time. He says, I've been traveling the world for 60 years and nobody's heard me. And and I myself have taken himto the lectures that for him that I've arranged

60 years. I just want to pause on that for a second. He's been teaching us for 60 years, and yeah, it's Ah,

he says he hasn't communicated that one person fully.

What does he mean by that? Literally.

What do you think? Nobody has fully understood the truth. It is a lot of people that have benefited themselves, but in sure he hasn't. Nobody else that he's taught has realized itself. It's such a rare thing. And people nowadays, you go to India for a month and come back and change your name and say, I'm self realized. You

know how How how does that make you feel about? About that is someone that's that's striving to our studying this for 22 years?

I mean, I This'd is, um it's a matter of fact for me. I mean, I know that, um I know how much work is left to do for myself and all of my other fellow students that I know of in people on the path. And I know how, um, how rare it is to have a full blown, self realized soul and to have had the opportunity to to spend time with such a person. Um, you know, that's all. Another podcast. But it really drives home the, um It makes you humble toe to be around a person of that level. And so it doesn't make me feel any way in,

like, a bad way. It it just inspires me to continue the effort because I know how much more road is left. Um, So that doing the work thing is, is is, um you take refuge in the work If people come, you take refuge and that if they don't come, that's it. Get on to the next job. And, um, incidently nowadays, um, people are responding in a much different level in a much more beautiful level. Even here in Houston, that's one of the reasons we came back because every time I came here, there were such it interested people.

What do you think is causing that just your own? Maybe you'll are just hitting a stride or getting better what you do. Or do you think they're a macro cause I think some

of that there's some of that. Also, we just have Ah ah, larger network here. There's a There's a massive organized, highly educated Indian population here, which is a wonderful base for us. Yeah, but even then it's not like, uh, you know, people are knocking down the doors to sit and study and reflect on philosophy. It's It's always going to be a small percentage, you know, it's it's not physical. It's not something that has an instant gratification associated with it. In fact,

it can be, um, disassociating. I mean to really stop and question everything about what we view our life. As you know, it's not necessarily ah comfortable thing. That's why it's typically for the young people. I mean, in traditionally this knowledge was given to, you know, people of that age of 12 13 whatever, because they're not attached to certain ideas, yet they're not. Shake said that there their worldview doesn't have consequences as much as it does when, as you move along. Your world view is actually a a baseline for how you walk out of the door in the morning and everyone has one.

And if you go upsetting it, um, and disturbing it, there are some very riel potential consequences that can happen in terms of how you live. And so, um, it's just not something that, um most that I think it will ever be like a a mass, a mass successful thing it. But it's always there for people who need it. And our job is, which were so, so fortunate. To be able to do is, um is to make it available for those who seek it. And so that's that's where the work is.

And it might not be a mass adoption, but it can be a mass affectation of just Ah,

I think so. I mean, you know Swamy

afraid. I know that Waipio groups go to go thio the academy in India from, you know, all around the world to visit it.

They do, Yeah, the Waipio has had, I think 15 international retreats there now the last 15 years, and it's one of the most highly rated retreats that they go on. And you know, Swami is because of his background, so eloquently translated the knowledge from this ancient wisdom. Um, two very practical philosophy. You and I've kind of been soaring pretty high today, but there's also really down to earth practical benefits of stress reduction and relationships and how to get you go out of the way and work and, you know, leadership. Uhm these sort of topics that that, you know, swami is reaching the very,

very the very top of the leadership in the world now. So in that way, you're right. I think there's a ah, a trickle down spirituality. Hope in that effort

If if there were, if there were one or two practical concepts that you could impart to listeners, um, and many which are in the startup realm Or now this, you know, this podcast has now grown to um yeah, we just past 10,000 downloads. So and so you know, it's exactly who knows where this is is kind of taken hold. But, um, if you were in part 1 to 2 concepts on the price of the practical sort from bed anto over, they be

so the first thing to understand is that every human being as a body which is moving us around, and it's a vehicle within the body. There are two equipments Mona's and Buddy in Sanskrit, mind and intellect. You can call them one into the mind is feelings, emotions, likes and dislikes, attachments, all the floaty stuff, the

other equipment kind of like What? What we would call the heart The heart in the West?

Absolutely, it's called. It's translated his mind in because of Sanskrit reasons. But yeah, it doesn't matter what you can call it heart. The other equipment in us and in Vedanta, these air talked about as subtle equipment sitting there, actual blue potties, their equipment. The other one is the intellect, which is called Booty in Sanskrit, and that is the ability to think. The reason to judge to decide to analyze. The idea is that the intellect, if the intellect and the mind are equal, the intellect can govern and direct the mind, not crush it,

not frustrated, not suppress it, not repress it, but guide it because the mind by itself has no guidance system in there within itself, it has no ability to say when is enough enough. It has no ability to explore the unknown. It has no ability to question why are we doing things this way? So if you want innovation, if you want disruption if you want, um, economic management of your company if you want to not be impulsive, if you want to be disciplined in terms of, um, how you're rolling out a particular initiative, you need to have a powerful intellect. Otherwise,

you become a victim of the mind. If the mind suddenly doesn't feel like doing something, you don't do it, you'll never achieve. Or if it feels like doing something else, that's going off of what you've decided to do with your intellect, and it's stronger than the intellect you'll go wandering off in that direction. So, um, this year

I've heard this one. Did you use? Ah, the, um, metaphor off of a river and the banks of the river, the river water.

You know, the banks of the intellect and the water flowing is the river, and the river is a beautiful thing, but it's also a massively destructive thing. If, uh, if the water is allowed to break the banks, so in short, don't be a slave to your mind, that's all. Don't let the mines, um, overtake the personality and do things that when in a later, calmer moment, moment when you're thinking is more clear you think, Gosh, I should have done this,

or I shouldn't have done that. Um, practice. This is practical in so many different ways. And it is it is the base of I'm really all of the corporate seminars

that we d'oh. How do you develop the intellect?

Number one question everything be in the habit of questioning. Why Why am I doing this? What am I doing this for? What are we achieving all the time? Number two don't take anything for granted. I mean, these things are related, but, you know, don't take for granted that things will always be a CZ. They are be on the alert, you know, to to, um, toe how things are and how they change. So question everything, don't take anything for granted.

And number three go to the go to the intellect, Jim, which is Vedanta or whatever system of of higher values and critical thinking that you prefer to exercise your intellect in. But from in my humble point of view, we have been looking at what I've looked at over the world over the years in the world. Uh, Vedanta is the most comprehensive. As you study it, it's designed to strengthen your intellect, to establish you in that higher viewpoint That gives you objectivity and clarity and ability to see where you're going and and guide your entire personality, including the mind in that direction.

And when you say, Ah, an intellectual Jim, do you mean like, uh, like one would imagine a Buddhist temple where you were meditating for 12 hours in a day and it's disciplined out through that would not

have a little not meditation at also sitting and taking in these higher ideas and reflecting upon them in a meditative way, in the sense that the very study itself is holding your thoughts on these higher values on a daily basis. When the mind starts wandering off into, you know what's on instagram? What's going on. You bring it back generally to the general concepts that you're working with. Um, that's That's the intellect, Jim. You do that for 30 minutes, 45 minutes an hour a day. Your intellect will slowly get more strengthen and it will begin to be available to you throughout your day so you'll be walking. When you're walking, you're walking. When you're at work, you'll be at work. When you're at

home, we can you Can you give me a tactical example? Well, you touched on Instagram or or social Media? But yeah, you can go with that tactical example.

Yes. Oh, no, no, I like it. So if you're sitting there studying a selection of Vedanta and and the mines, nature is toe have no direction. So it's going to want to one wander into the future. It could be what's on Instagram. It could be. What will I have for breakfast? You know, it could be What? What did I do yesterday? What happened at work? So that bringing the mind flow your attention back to your chosen work? That's what the intellect does,

so that as it's this is not like you're not going to sit down and have some bliss moment. It's work. It's effort. But after, as time goes on and you do this in a consistent way, you begin to notice that you're more easily able to bring your mind in your attention to whatever it is you're doing throughout Saturday. So it says in the Vedanta Treatise that there's far more power in this disciplined way of of living with the intellect governing your personality than there is in the so called seat of meditation. So what What's happening? I mean, relax. Ation is wonderful. It iss I mean, it's ah, but that's really mostly what's going on in the so called meditation in the world today. People were just relaxing who otherwise never stop and take a breath, you know,

and that's not going to actually strengthen your intellect. It's It's a healthier form of just having arrest, which is great like, but we should call it what it is, which is Relax ation. Hanno is saying that, um uh, for her, she's thinking maybe her meditation is just relax ation. And when I heard her say that I was like, you know, high fiving her in the car, I thought it was awesome. It's so true. Um uh, actual meditation,

classically defined, is holding the mind on a single thought to the exclusion of all other thoughts under the governance of the intellect, and it's actually recommended as the last stage of spiritual effort. Just before the person drops in the dissolves the ego completely in the state of self realization. It's the gateway to enlightenment. But the thing is, it's easy to teach. And there's a lot more people interested in that. Because if you run around all day and you never stop and you're you're always working to just sit down and take a breath for 20 minutes is relaxing. And there's an instant effect, you

know, great. And and I think the other key idea there is, um, it is visual. You can sell it. It's kind of like physical yoga, and it is completely compatible with whatever preconceptions you're coming in with. Anyone can sit down for 20 minutes and focus on breath, and that is really it is powerful. But yeah, I've also heard it described. The meditation is is broad of a term of sports. So, like just saying, sports is good and there's many, many forms of meditation and

and right, so it's it's often is like done. Now it's like a reaction to suffering and stress and agitation and blood pressure and whatever. And like many things, Indian, the wisdom even of Indian medicine of Eire Veda is don't get sick in the first place living, living balance and what you eat. And with time, all that iron Vedic principles, you won't ever get sick. They theoretically, you know. So the idea of a dentist slowly strengthen your intellect to govern your mind so that your people talk about being in the moment and be here now and Rhonda's and all that and be present and all these things how to do it. You know how the how is not being off? That mechanism is not being taught. People talk about being mindful. What they should be talking about is the intellectual.

Keep that intellect alert and aware of all that we're doing all the time, so that when you have dinner with your wife tonight, you'll have dinner and you won't be thinking about your projects for tomorrow. And when you're doing your projects, tomorrow, you'll be doing your projects. You won't be wondering about the conversation you had with your wife. You know, that's what stresses stress, pulls people in 100 directions. Because the intellect is weak, the mind is just running amok, stressing people out so they need. They need weekends, they need vacations. They need to get away from action.

They get burnt out all these things air effects. Whereas if the intellect is governing the personality, that's when you find the the piece in the action. That's when you find the pleasure in the action and you're always meditative. It's open, I meditation. And if you take that to the furthest extent where the body is fully refined to govern the mind on a thought, my thought level, then you considered meditate and wiped off the mind completely and reached the state of pure consciousness. But it's there's a lot of premature meditation going on, and the problem is, I don't mean to get on the big

thing, But no, this is this is, um, this really

interesting? Yeah, that the issue is it's like I said, relax, ations. Awesome. I love to sit on my surfboard and stare at the horizon just like the next guy. It's amazing, you know, just dropped the world, you know, Um, but, um, the problem is, when you think OK, now I'm spirit tool,

and I'm done. And, like, I've got my practice and I'm practicing being satisfied with how I am, and I'm just using it as my daily sort of, uh, basically my daily drink. You know, that's where it's harmful because we all have a lot more work to do to really get into the underlying tendencies of our minds that are that are distracting us from the true higher purpose of life. And that takes a lot of work. That's not something that you get by just relaxing. You've gotta go through the you gotta pay the price, which is study and reflection, and digging into this philosophy like a university student, digs into their studies like whether they like it or not. I mean,

it's not every day that I love reading for the philosophy, but we do it to keep the values on the front of the mind and to keep the intellect fresh, like the road at Walden Pond, he said. In the early morning, I bathed my intellect in the stupidest and cause marginal philosophy of the Bhagavad Gita, you know, because he was studying with Emerson and the Daniel Hawthorne and Elizabeth Browning and all those people in that's that's the approach is that you get up and you in the early morning, you bathe your intellect. In these ideas, you question life on a daily basis. You question, What am I here for? You? You get all of your you polish your mirror, as the Buddhists say every morning and then you meet life and it's remarkable.

It's a very slow It's like hair growing. But after six months or a year, if you do it in a dedicated way, um, you notice that you have much better self governance. You're much less a victim of the changing mind. And, uh, all many other you have energy, you you're much more productive, more efficient. And, you know, this is what we do with our study classes here in Texas and like my colleagues do in the world. And, uh,

I have a colleague in there in San Francisco, actually, and, um, and now there's e learning. You can do the whole three year program and watch it. Um, Alice for me taught it. It was recorded, his lectures were recorded and that that's a great health.

But where can people where can people find that

vedanta world dot or ge? If you go to the study courses tab on vedanta world dot org's You can see the learning course, and it's it's amazing. I'm doing it and I'm doing the learning course after doing that. Really The course in the Ostrom Multiple times I've spent about a decade in the Ostro and even some of the lectures on the learning course that I'm watching. I'm sitting in the room because occasionally he'll remark to me something, you know? Well, it's just amazing.

This thing that's coming to mind is, is one of the concepts within But don't do that if I find so fascinating And in, um, Swami Ji has a book called The Holocaust of Attachment and I remember you telling me Ah, a little anecdote about the title and you're feeling like it was pretty dramatic. And his responsibility, like it is dramatic. That's right, Um, and and on the concept of attachment being and being very much like, I think in many ways, in the brought up satori, our view on salvation from Eastern or Western sense can be perceived as as a moment of before and after, and and something that Vedanta, um, talks about as a philosophy around, you know,

attachment or detachment is attachment is like a virus that you can just re catch. And I absolutely know that that's true for me. I could be at a lunch with friends and feel going into it that I'm, uh, I'm in AA strong intellectual place and then completely catch it like a cold as someone's, ah, success that I have, ah, jealousy over or something that is, that shifts or alters this future that I built for myself. And it probably happens once a week where there's there's this psychological pain or death of like, No, this future that I had is now being now being altered, and and I was completely attached to this imaginative ah, about the weakness in that strength of of imagining, ah,

future. And that's, um, And in waking up each morning and reflecting on, um, even just reading two pages of that book and putting it down, reflecting on it for 10 minutes is is somewhat of, ah, helpful inoculation from from that virus that I ah if I go, if I go three or four weeks of not thinking about this, um, I'm not reflecting on the morning that it is for sure I'm going to get a cold,

huh? Well, beautifully said. And yeah, I mean, salami actually has given talks called the Virus of Attachment. So you're you're right on it. That's

it. Well, the other thing that that I I'm reflecting one when you said when you talked about that's the work. And, um and that you have two people show up If no one shows up, that is the work. I think that is. Um I have thought about that story so many times since as we chatted about it, and and one of the things that I realized is the case for me and and potentially for many others, uh, and and 2019 is the work that we're doing is it's so rarely self justifying. It is always a symbol or a bridge to some other thing we want and and therefore like a bridge. It is so transitory. It is just when you're there, you know you're not supposed to be there that you're supposed to be somewhere else. And whether it is building a startup in it being, ah,

shortcut to some financial windfall or doing X y Z, because it's going to lead to this other thing that you really want. Maybe it's credibility or or admiration whenever it is. Whenever the work doesn't is not self justifying. It's you. You look around you like shit. I'm on a bridge and I cannot use the d o

d. Did you see Robert Smiths commencement speech at Morehouse?

No, I didn't, but yeah, you e mailed me about this speech. Tell me a little bit. This this was Tell me the story told me that

just it's mind blowing. You'll feel about it. Watch the whole thing. But basically, he's Ah, I don't know exactly what he does. I believe he's a very successful investor. We're out there in the Bay area. Um, Anyway, he's a billionaire and all that. And he was the commencement speaker at Morehouse this year. And, um, long story short. He announced that he said the class of 2019 is mine, and I am going to relieve my family is going to relieve all of your debt.

So he paid. He's paying off. It's like $40 million or something. He's He's paying off all their debts to give him a start. But what blew me away, which is really relevant to this talking about work. I actually have the quote in front of me. I'm gonna read it to you, he said. In his commencement speech, he said, You need to know that nothing replaces actually doing the work. The usual scenario is that successful entrepreneurs spend endless hours, days, years toiling away for little time, little pay and zero glamour. And in all honesty, that's where the joy of success actually resides

with

greatness is born out of the grind, so him embrace the grind. But he's saying, and then he gave the example of himself working in a lab, um, doing whatever research you did for years in windowless labs, he says in that that in that work is the success. That's it. And it's not some later, but that's when you are completely free of yourself. But look, I mean, the key thing to understand is the only way this works is if the motive for the work is unselfish or selfless, then the work becomes, ah, a refuge. What we pollute our work with IHS selfish motives,

ego centric motives. So you may be like whatever. I have a start up company. I'm releasing an app like That's what it is. We want to make a $1,000,000,000. Great, that's fine. But there must be some higher ideal that's slightly more socially conscious, then just that We're not saying that you shouldn't get rich, but you ve doctor recommends that there should be some circle of benefactor in larger than ourselves that liberates us from the minds. Constant attention on the fruit of the action having so you do the work just as you're doing it. But with the higher ideal, like, how can I be observant? And it doesn't have to be saved the world and feed all the Children of the planet. It can just be We wanna have the most on time delivery for the convenience of our customers,

you know now. But the truth is, the higher it is, the less it has to do with your ego. The more the work is a refuge, the more you are liberated in the work. Which is why so many people are are are interested in this because people are realizing that it's empty, too. Just pursue my bank balance and and my power quotient.

You know that

it's tiring and agitating and not satisfying. Um, there are so many people talking about it. David Brooks just has a new book out about two mountains And how when you get to the top of the Mountain of Success and whatever you realize that it's empty and then you have to start finding a purpose that transcend yourself. You know, um, this is hardwired into us because our nature is infinite. Our nature is to go beyond this limited individuality. And this is something that, um, takes a long time to get your head around. But it is the truth. You are not James. I am not Joseph. We are not limited to these individuals body, mind and intellects. And the none of us will rest content until we transcend ourselves and reach up back to our original nature,

which is infinite, eternal cultivating. So the work that we do, if it can help us to get off the mark of of that ego, Um, it's almost like the wind of of the self as it were gets behind you and starts pushing you and you want more work. You look for you not in like, a workaholic way. But you look forward to the next piece of action that you get to participate in. So in that way, troops service is the highest luxury. When once you get a taste for it, you won't be able to go back to mere selfish living.

Well, I've often thought that are are underlying that. Our ultimate pursuit is connection, and and it's, um then the question is, will wise that our ultimate pursuit. And I think in chatting with you today it's, um, potential answers because there was a point in which we were well, we are connected, and that is a that is a simple is just looking at hell. You take one of us, put them in space and take them out of the environment and you cannot survive. Therefore, you obviously depend every moment on your environment, much less depend on your parents for the provision of life and the grand parents and generations before them. Um,

to to see thinking 30 seconds, how interdependent we we truly are. But in that pursuit of connection, um, it is, you know, the and the Big Bang is, ah, this theory of of this incredible explosion that, um, as Ellen Watts often says are often said that the Big Bang is not something that just happened 13.2 billion years ago. And then it stopped 100 million years. And we are the big bang. It is still happening. We just have 113.2 billion years into it. If this is,

you look around and this is the big Bang and in a very physical, um, and and somewhat rational sense. Well, that means that that we were one. And, um and maybe what is powerful about these concepts for certain people is they hear it and and they remember. And in a sense, we have been dismembered from one another. And in hearing these concepts, internalizing them is is a form of of remembrance. Wonderful. Well, um, man, the ah,

I could spend hours on this with you, and I know that I will, But, um, I feel like that might be enough for today. Um, Joseph and I I am so thankful for our paths crossing. And, um and I really appreciate the work that you're doing with Ah, with Vedanta Academy and and Vedanta Institute, Houston. Um, and where can people find more information about ah I know you said vedanta world dot org's for for the e learning.

Is that right? Yep. For the learning and for the ash from in India. And people are always welcome to visit there. Um, we're in bay, Don You? Yeah. I'm in Houston of vedanta Houston dot org's They can reach out. We're on instagram that they don t. Houston, we're gonna be doing some some videos this summer. As we travel around. We're about to go travelling with Swami Ji for a couple of months. Um, so, yeah, they can reach out thio any of those avenues?

What are some of the events coming up that people can can attend to listen to Swami Ji?

Oh, yeah. Great. So, um yeah. If people happen to be listening from London, there's there's a seminar there on June 4th. Ah, soon under G has his swami Ji's daughter. Disciple is also an amazing teacher. She has lectures there. Um, we're gonna be there, so I'd be happy to meet anyone there in the States in September. Um, Swami Ji will be in San Diego. Um,

you can go to Vedanta. L a dot org's for that. My colleague Glenn Callahan and Natalie Kelehan are out there organizing that. And of course, soon under jeez, retreat at Kalemie Guest Guest Ranch and Beach Club, which I believe I'll be seeing you at. Um,

I Yes, I think so.

Yeah, that's in September. Um, there's a bunch of things you could be in New York, Toronto, Detroit, and we're gonna have seen under G here in Houston. So anybody could just email me about any of these things. Um and, um, yeah, there's There's a lot of options now, especially with the learning.

Well, thank you so much. Um, it is Ah, this conversation is is one of many that I have appreciated from our, uh, our interaction stress of its You blew my mind today, and and I think that'll be the case for many listeners as well.

Well, thanks, brother. And I look forward to doing it in person. Um, with, uh, when we when we get together, maybe in the bay area sometime. And I just want to say I'm a huge fan and, uh, as you know, And, um, I really think this is in terms of doing work for the world. I think this is an awesome thing you're doing. And also,

for those of us who get to be on the podcast, it's really the question. Do you ask our, um, amazing. And really, I've been thinking about them a lot. Um, which has been a good exercise and, uh, just knowing you and how you are in your life and how you talk to people and always air asking, um uh, probing questions in an even normal conversation. I think you've really found your swat Dharma, as we say, and they don't know what your your your own nature and it's awesome to see so I'm happy to be a part

of it. Well, speaking of the self justification of the work where it's not for, you know, some other, um, him destination, this is Miss. This podcast might be the most, Ah, self justifying. And I can't. I cannot. I cannot articulate how empowering it is to do something where the work itself is just justifies itself. And it is, um, you know,

this podcast has been met with ah with ah criticism of it being too philosophical or to, ah, spiritual or to psychological or to ah woo or two just out there, It's It has been, um It has been something where, you know, I don't even look at the the ah, the data. And just whenever I publish in an episode of basically forced you to look at the the Analytics of Downloads and I just it's one of these things. It's one of the rare things my life, where I've just not cared amount about what it could lead to because it has felt even one or two episodes. And it just felt so, uh, it was so interesting. Just it felt like it was in a groove of, uh,

I guess the only way I've been ableto try to articulate it just it justified itself toe where I just didn't care about any of the other things like I would have, I would have cared about if this was some. You know, entrepreneurial venture instead of just is a fund chance to have conversations with such fascinating people like yourself. So thank you for supporting injustice.

My pleasure, man, I

love right chat with soon. All right, James, A friend's and listeners. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want to hear more of these types of conversations go over to your favorite podcast staff and hit, Subscribe or leave us a review. Better band Love hearing from people that appreciate this type of conversation. I want more of it. You can also follow us on Twitter at Go below the line. Well, a CNR Twitter bio Our email address for you to shoot us a note on any suggestions of guests or topics that we should cover. We read every single one so thank you for those that have already sent those in. That's it for us today. We will see you next. Time on below the line below the line is brought to you by straight up podcasts.