Hello. Friends and listeners gonna get to some administrative topics real quick before we get into the episode with Sam Park, founder of The Hustle. This is as good a time as any to mention that I'm gonna actually be speaking at Hustle Khan later this year, which is Sam's conference. It's December 2nd and third here in Oakland, California so in the Bay Area, and it is one of my favorite conferences, it's actually health. Sam and I started to trade emails about him coming on the podcast. I got to know Sam in 2015 one of the first hustle cons, and ah, and it's It is, I think, one of my favorite conferences for founders because it covers everything and is really four everyone. Instead of just conferences for programming, languages or conferences for SAS businesses or ah,

or specific sectors, Hustle Khan is for anyone. If you want to start a company, maybe you already have a business that you want to grow. If you want to sharpen your non technical skill set, maybe your technical, but you want to find a non technical co founder. Learn about the non technical side of a building up your you and growing your startup and or you just want to hang out with inspiring and fund people. There's a great list, great list of people on the on the ticket this year, and, um, and I'm blown away. That, ah, that invited me to join.

It is December 2nd through 3rd 22 day conference this year, and you can enter below the line as a promo code below the line. All caps. All one word for $50 off of a two day ticket is it will likely sell out fast. So do it sometime soon to make sure that that promo code applies so on to Sam and and my guest for today. Sam is the founder of The Hustle, which is one of the fastest growing media companies here in America. And if your mail from 25 to 40 years old, you probably are very, very familiar with the hustle. They have talented writers who create that. Is there there a regional audience? Although I will say some of the really cool things like trends that cuts across any demographic. Ah, little plug for their new new product that is pretty cool called trends But, um,

the hustle is, ah, media company that has just talented writers creating newsletters and compelling content on all kinds of important business news and trends. They also cover some really interesting topics outside of what you normally find in a business focus media company like where does court accepts mushrooms come from and how they help you with productivity and energy, stuff that you just wouldn't find and and a typical business focused newsletter? It's really cool stuff. Like I said earlier, I met Sam in 2015 when I was invited to speak at their convention. Hustle Khan. And it is. I'm excited about going back. The reason I love the conference, the reason I love the hustle. The reason I love anything that Sam does, to be honest is because the through line and it all is this openness and real nous and lack of pretense that is very hard to find with with founders. I mean,

it could go to a Facebook post since we're friends or or a Twitter post on what he's dealt with with addiction or therapy. It is what below the line is all about the rial version of of a founder of Creator, a leader. The rial version of their story. And that's something that Sam does uniquely well. We chat about him giving up alcohol six years ago, getting started in the hot dog stand business, that is, I'm you heard that correctly actually got to start with a hot dog stand the way that he built the hustle with very little money. We also talk about him hitting moments with the hustle, even as it was seeing pretty medio meteoric growth that made him want to quit as recently as last year, despite the growth truck, a trajectory, all of that and MAWR uh, made today's episode really special. The podcast is brought to you by play Cast Media The easiest,

simplest, most straightforward way to have a professional premium podcast studio in your home or office. I use play cast equipment. It is the simplest hands down the simplest way to get up and running with everything you need for professional premium podcast and your home or office. It is, you know, the mikes, the cords, the recorder instead of doing 30 hours of research of what do I need? What do I not need? How do I sound as good as possible so that it reflects well on what I'm trying to put out in the world. Do I need sound proofing behind me? Do I need this mike or that? Might all of that is made much simpler with play cast to go to play. Cast media dot com It's one click boom. You've got a premium professional podcast delivered right to your door,

all with one click. It is the simplest, and I'm not just saying this because there their advertisers, it really is the simplest way to get up and running with a premium professional podcast. Gonna play cast media dot com Inter promo code James for 10% off play cast media dot com. The podcast is also brought to you by Dope Dog. The There's one of is easily one of my favorite brands in the world that says This is a actually has nothing do with it being dog treats just an amazing brand Amazing company, and I'm known about the way before they became sponsored the podcast, but there it is. Www dot dope dot d o g for CBD Dog treats to help with anxiety joint pain Ah, separation anxiety. Um, our little docks and six year old docks and Windell loves dope dog. And we love it, too, because it keeps his anxiety to a minimum.

Ah, and in that results in about 70% less barking around the house. Goto dope dot d o G. That's www dot dope dot D o g and inter promo code below the line for 20% off as dope dot dog one of my favorite brands out there. And I think if you have a dog that tends to bore quite a bit, you're in love, dope dog, just as much as we do without further delay. Let's get into it with Sam. Poor This is but will the line. Sam. What up, man? What's going on? Good to see you.

You too. Cheers. Cheers Again. Thank you. To Who's it? Backs Max and Graham.

Max and Graham, the brothers behind Macho Bar, which were quite literally drinking a drink called Hustle.

Yeah, we're coincidence, and I've never had much, really never. I saw it and the green always turned me off. Yeah, but this tastes great.

It's a nice canned version. You don't want to mix it, but yet, Macha is listeners know that I take Monta green tea. But this is my favorite. Wait. Ah, how much? Because you don't have to actually whisk it or makes it yourself.

This is cool. I'll

be buying it. Yeah, Macho bar. Um, and I am full disclosure. I am an investor. But that's not why I brought it out today. Just to fitting for the founder of the hustle to not drink. Hustle. Um, the, uh, one of things were chatting about before before jumping on to the mikes was about San Francisco. And and you tweeted the other day about, you know, why aren't more people moving? Austin,

it seems so amazing. And I think you and, you know, it might be similar in this. Just ah, San Francisco has has its days today.

Today's the day were like, I always say, San Francisco has lots and lots of cons and lots and lots of pros.

Yeah, like what are some of them that go

through your mind? Yeah. So pros the natural beauty. Um, it's pretty spectacular. Maybe like one of the most beautiful cities in the country. The city's not smaller towns. Um, it's you meet worldly people, people from all over the world. That's awesome. I don't know about you. When I grew up in Missouri, I had never met. I didn't know an Indian person I didn't know. I don't even know Hispanic people. I didn't know Asian people. I only knew white and black people.

Yeah, the same in Texas. White, black, Mexican. And I didn't have Indian food. I mean, me neither. I didn't know a tear Iwas I didn't sushi. I have Yeah. Oh, yeah. I remember. Um first time I had sushi was in New York visiting my brother went Ah, you went to school up there and way had sushi. And I was like crazy when I was, like,

13 or 14. I I love Indian food by two. More than anything, any information type and it is I didn't have any in food tells like 22 today when I was living in South Africa. If it weren't for that, I would have gone even longer.

Same totally. I didn't have Indian food. I didn't know what like I think I've heard the word butter chicken, but I know what that meant. It was like the most Americanized Indian food. So, yeah, I don't know like any of that stuff I had never had sushi Eso Pros are like It's people from all over the world. It's naturally beautiful, and many of the people are very smart. The cons are it's incredibly expensive to the point of, even if you're rich, you're like, Damn, this is just kind of wasteful. Um, I think that I think that the majority of the politics here are,

like, pretty far left, which is no big deal. I just wish that there was also something to counterbalance set so we could have mawr discussion and mawr, sometimes more moderate things. Policies. So that could be a con. Um,

that's probably it.

Those are just, like, really heavy. It would be quote of like this house that we're in right now. We're in James House. If we could spend the money for this house in Dallas and Missouri, you'd have a fat house with the huge backyard at a huge pool. That is true it sometimes I look at Zillow what I'd like. Hey, this condo, that's one bedroom condo. It's $900,000. I would have won the nicest houses in my hometown

I know is, Ah, it is. When Tim Fares moved to Austin and was asked why, he said that he loved the baseline warmth of the people. That was one of the things that kind of highlighted just the I Love San Francisco, for, I think, basically same one of the same reasons. The baseline warmth of the people is not as great as other places. Obviously, the expense of the city is is is pretty exorbitant. But it is. It's hard from anything of a city where you adjust and meet, interact with, connect with these incredibly interesting people doing crazy, cool things that have almost self selected to. I will move halfway across the world to that one crazy. So it's almost like self selects

people. Speaking of self selecting and Tim Fair. So Tim was lived on the block times, one of my investors.

That's right. I remember you posting that lived

down the block from me in Glen Park, and I knew him as we would walk her dogs at the same time, I every once in a while I would say something like, Oh, I listen to your latest podcast. It was cool but a majority of the time. It was just small talk of neighbors. And that's how I met him. And like, where on earth is that gonna happen? And I've done that many times with people of similar calibre, Maybe not like someone as high profile but of like as interesting or successful people. That happens all the time. We're done else. Where else on earth could that possibly happen?

Right? It is. Ah, there's so much serendipity. Hear that? It's It's incalculable. The housing prices are easily calculate the seven deputies. It's hard Teoh calculate, but it's, um it is certainly, Yeah, today's it's having a great day. We were in my wife's art studio. We here in chickens outside? Yeah, it's on, Neighbor. It's probably 70 degree. Yeah, 70 degrees

outsides. I have. I live half a mile away a mile England park, and I have I'm a beekeeper. I'm an amateur. Cool. Well, I've got bees, my backyard. So, like, doing

When did you get into

that? Um, so we have a mutual friend a J Foresight

chairmanship. Yeah, obviously huge.

They told me all about beekeeping, and I was looking for a hobby that I didn't want to spend a lot of money on it because that meant I would have to pay more attention to it. And I didn't want to, like, have to work hard on it. And I wanted to be in the outdoors, and I liked scoured the web of, like, interesting hobbies. And I had remember they told me about it and I was like, a J This hobby kind of seems interesting, like, Should I do this Because you do it cost $500 to, like, get going and it's awesome. So I don't even really eat honey, But

it's just fun. Do you like bottle

and give it to other people? Yeah, I just have it at my office, and I want to just take a jar that is Ah, so things like that.

Eight A. J in Chad, out to a J and and Chip Mutual friends as well as, ah, known Chip. Since eighth grade. They A J is younger brother sent me an email or intro me to someone like yesterday or the day before. Just said, I want you to meet a fellow, be keep, uh, it's like how he's meeting people.

Yeah, he's a funny guy. And but my point is you can't do You can't have chickens and can't do You probably won't be doing this in New York in like another big city. So anyway, San Francisco has a lot of great

stuff now is Ah, after moving here from Austin, I love Austin. But yet it's this is the fit for me for right now the, um there's so much I want to talk to you about and and I have all these little notes jotted down, but actually just want Teoh open it with, uh, you were, and we've been friends on Facebook for years. We've only hung out a couple times in real life, but on Facebook you're very open, very candid. And and I love that about you winded this openness start where you started just sharing very personal things on Facebook to

the wider Web. When I was in sixth grade, I had read the book How to Win Friends and Influence People, and it kind of taught me how to like, get what you want from someone in the like a positive way, like how toe ask someone for help or how to like make someone, your friend or how to like, do different things like that. And I learned early on that if you're vulnerable or open with someone about what you're struggling with and they see you actively trying to get better, they're more likely toe help and contribute. So there's a famous quote by Chris Rock where he's like, if if you're just trying to ask him to help you fix your car, they the likelihood that people will keep driving buys high. But if they see you pushing your car alone side of the road, no more likely to get behind help you push. And I learned early on that if I like, If I when I was a kid and I wanted to learn how to do something and if I would email someone older than me or call someone or ask someone for help older,

me and I was like, Hey, I have no idea how to do this. I'm gonna try it. Can you give me feedback or something like that? Can you can I just hang out with you? Um, if you like, are open and vulnerable to certain people that, um, you'll get what you want

it's it's That's a cool contrast in visual, of asking for help to fix a car versus pushing it. Yes, there is

a massive difference. I also think it's fun, like maybe I just have a low filter or low threshold for being embarrassed. I just don't. My feelings don't really get hurt. And I don't mine looking like an idiot. So and I think it's funded like share stuff.

Uh, and it's surprisingly addictive toe where it's just like, Oh, you see it, you see the best of people respond. Instead of fearing that it's the worst of people respond to see the best of people on this podcast, I have shared some really personal intimate things that I that I just I removed the filter early on and just said, Wherever it goes,

it goes, Yeah, it's

therapeutic, It's and it's has been so surprising how positive of a response that that it's just it feels useful in ways that it's hard to put my finger on. But it's like, Wow, Okay, this is this honest here Open? It seems useful. You've been doing it since, Okay, it sounds like sixth

grade. Well, and do you remember the movie eight mile with Eminem, where he likes,

like I get it. Yeah,

well, he makes fun of himself. He's like, Yeah, I am poor. Yeah, my mom does have a drug addiction. Yeah, by girl cheated on Bey. And then once you like, make it where you've already just made fun of yourself for every downfall you have, like, it feels way better, because now, if anyone makes there won't

make fun of you. Write about yourself. You're like, dude. Yeah, I have always

weak. This is big deal. Ah, I have no problem calling them out. You know, it's like, way better to

live. That is Ah, yeah. It builds a pattern of of that. You see it working and sometimes you don't know how it's gonna work. But you see that openness working in unexpected ways. Then it's like, OK, I can do this more and more, and it rarely. And in my experience, Israeli backfired as it ever backfired for you being to open on something like,

Yeah. I mean, um, maybe talking about like, really serious issues I've had I don't mind sharing it with friends, But every once in a while, when your family sees that you had issues. It worries them. And they're like, Why didn't you tell me at the time? It's like, I just don't want to bother you. Or were you? Um, that's not a down side, but it could be. It creates a lot of different,

difficult conversations, You know what I mean? Um, so but in general, no, it has not

been an issue. Yeah, it's Ah, it surprised me. How How yet has been creating this void invites people into it versus versus, um, the alternative of it being like vulnerability, the eyes. And I love that about you. It also reminds us so that that visual of of, um and what was the Chris Rock Chris Rock?

He has, like, a story. I think he said this like an interview. He was like, People are if you're on the side of the road trying toe, fix your car and you just hold your thumb out like people will keep driving. But if you just get behind the car and start pushing the likelihood that someone will get out and help push is much higher.

What are one of that? What are one of one or two of the areas of your life where you been really open. And you've been surprised by how much engagement it has gotten from people around

you to things like struggling with some, like addiction issues and also business. So with business, I A lot of people think that when you are in Silicon Valley and you start doing cool stuff that you were like born into it. But most people move here not knowing anyone. And I was the same. I didn't know a soul. I didn't know a person, one person

here. I hated this city Before I moved in. I was like, Fuck

those people. Yeah, you're like they like their just born into it and it's like That's actually not the case. Most people come here with nothing, and you just kind of network and figure it out. And when I moved here, I didn't know anyone. I don't know anything. I didn't know anything about business. Um, and I remember emailing people that were like like this one guy in particular, Kevin Ryan. He's the guy who started mongo DB, which is a publicly traded company. He started business insider. He started guilt. He started.

He was the CEO of the company that became AdWords. I think it's called Double click anyway, very successful guy and I would email him and like a I kind of want to start a media company. I have no idea what I'm doing here is the steps I'm about to start doing are taking. Let me know if you have feedback and who wouldn't reply. And then I would email him three weeks later for three months later and like, All right, here's the progress we're now this far along. Revenue is this, Um I'm struggling with this. If you ever wanna share stories, let me know that he wouldn't respond. And I just kept doing that for, like, seriously years. And I did that with a handful of other people.

And after a while, people just started opening up. And now I have this, like, Amazing Network. And it was done and basically doing that with loads of people. Um,

that is awesome. Just ah, almost like a preemptive investor list of sharing things. Yeah, and some of these

guys, some of them did invest some of them I didn't want them to invest in. They didn't. It was just like, uh, I just need to figure like you've already done this. Just can you somehow figure out I wanted them to save me years of mistakes, and I just They would solve me building it, and they knew that I wasn't full of shit. And I could execute, maybe not, like, execute everything correctly. But they saw that I was ah, Duer. And they were willing to take me under their wing and teach me. So that has helped.

Just like being open. I'm telling, like I don't know what I'm doing, but this is what What I'm gonna dio, right? So that has helped a time.

Yeah, that and it is so, so much more valuable. It's also just like, when has an angel vester being on the other side of, ah, conversation where someone says they don't know they answered something. It's like those of most of those three words. I don't know. So powerful.

Yeah, I've done a ton and I remember being in meetings and when people have wanted to buy our company or wanted to invest in us or something like that and they're like, What you guys gonna do when this happens? and you just say, like, I'm not sure I'll probably figure it out, but I don't know. And it's like the best answer ever. Like my day. I just said it cause I was pissed off and I was like, Wow, that was effective. Yeah, that worked. No,

it does. It does work, and so were the other area addiction. Tell me a little bit of

more about Yes. So I don't drink alcohol. I don't do I don't. I'm not against alcohol, but I don't drink it. And I don't do any drugs. So no, I don't even smoke weed or do anything like that. I do nothing. Except for caffeine, I guess. Um, and the first year of me quitting booze, I wrote a post about it is just called, like the six things I learned not drinking for a year. And this was in 2014. Not that I'm a somebody now,

but I was particularly a nobody. Then it was just a guy, just kid. And I shared that and got, like, a 1,000,000 views on that article and ah ah, it was great. It was their therapeutic. It was wonderful.

And, ah, what made you want to quit? I used

to get in trouble a lot, so I had been arrested a bunch. I I like I just like to go hard. And I would I was a wild guy. And, um, if there was something in front of me, I was gonna consume all of it, and as much as I could and there is no middle ground. And I realized, like I remember, I watched like a music video. I know I watched a live concert online on YouTube, and it was like one guy singing and there was like it was Oasis. It was always says it was one guy singing and he was buried. It was Noel Gallagher. He was very barely playing.

But there was, like probably a 1,000,000 people in the crowd like singing along. And I'm like, Wow, that's pretty amazing. That one guy put putting out very little energy has thus curated way Mawr energy. And I was like, really inspired. I was like, pretty hammered when I was watching this one day, and I'm like, I'm never gonna do that if I keep a living this way, I got to get my shit together. Um And so I just called Turkey. Stop, um, minute

behind its. Another cool visual.

Yeah, I just was amazed. I was like, because, like, I just very distinctly remember him playing an acoustic song. But it was like he was playing, like, one of the famous like Wonderwall or don't look back in anger. And it was just like one guy singing. And there was a 1,000,000 people. I think it was one of largest concerts ever. There's something like 500,000 people there singing along, and he was not even, like, screaming or anything. I was like,

I bet I could

do that. I could figure out a leverage, like my energy to, like, Crate Way Mawr. But I couldn't do it if I was, like, shit face all the time. So I was like, I got I got I got to get my shit together and I just quit.

Well, it begs for this. I remember this post, but it begs the question for listeners. What were those six things that you learned? Well, Yeah.

Yeah. So I was single. I was a 24 year old. I quit when I was 23 or 24 23. So the number one thing, why I drink what? We're not number one. But a big thing was I would go out to bars and I would meet girls, and I would you know, that's what every young guy does. And you think there's no way I can do this without drinking. And I learned that I was actually still able to live in exciting life and meet girls and meet friends and do all these interactions that I typically relied for booze to help make that happen. So that was a huge thing. The second thing was, it took two or three months, but eventually I started like it felt as if I had warning. Classes are had bad eyesight,

and I was able to put glasses on. So, like Mike senses heightened, like, you know how you feel when you're hungover. Your everything's kind of dull, right? Um, I didn't feel like that ever. Um, and the third thing was I was able to do a lot of amazing things, like I would speak in front of people or I would meet Ah, I my now soon to be wife. I've met her sober, and I was like, I feel like a superhuman like I'd never thought I'd be able to do that. And so it kind of like, created like like an addict, like I was almost

addicted to that to that clarity or yeah,

I'm like That was crazy. I just overcame

my fear. Dude, I couldn't agree more. The, um I don't really drink, and it is kind of like It's not like I I don't have an attachment any longer to those two to alcohol or or the social settings in which drink, But it's actually just an attachment to I love waking up in the morning. I was never a morning person, but now I love waking up in the morning and feel feeling very

clear. Feel good. I had it feels great.

It's and now that's like that is my addiction. But But I also am very cognizant and the something that that we also touched on before we started recording. I want to get your thoughts on. I'm also very cognizant that I actually pardoning, wants to attend a A because I know that there is still very addictive tendencies for May I know, so I never really drink that much to begin with. So I just stopped drink because I really loved feeling great. Morning. But I do know entrepreneurship is very all consuming, at times, obsessive. At times, it feels like interdict addictive behavior. Remember watching a ted talk that talked about the parallels between it extra in entrepreneurship, and it's Ah, it said, uh,

basically that, you know, this obsessive I need that drives all leather, uh, behavior needing to essentially surrender control and all these things that a would would teach someone. I was like, Man, I would love to go experience these these principles or yeah, learn about them. What? What? Interesting. Yeah. Did have you noticed similarities of entrepreneurship in addiction?

Yeah, Yeah, 100%. And so I did go to a a little bit. I kind of I went cold turkey and stop. And that actually could make you really sick if you don't do it effectively. And I didn't do it effectively. It kind of made me ill. And I would go to a a little bit, and eventually I stopped going because I just found alternatives. Um, but what I learned doing this was people who will try to be really great at anything. It doesn't matter if it's business sports. Um, are it Doesn't matter. You just anyone who liked wants to be high. Achieving is kind of a weirdo like you.

You are just on your really far on one end, and that just tends toe jive. Well, with getting addicted to alcohol or drugs or whatever or food, Um, I think that in order to, like, have an outs, outsized returns or to be the best in your field, you got your more likely and not gonna have. Ah, very extreme personality. And ah, so I embrace, like my ability to get addicted to things. I just,

like, try to choose what I'm gonna give into, but, uh, yeah, and particularly starting business. You have to, um, kind of be able to say, like, my fuck it, Let's do it like you have to be really comfortable with that. And that's the same thing. When you get addicted alcohol, you're like, Yeah, school. Let's go like And it's like, very similar mentality.

Yeah, kind of saying yes

to whatever. Yeah, and you're like, Let's just embrace the weird. Let's embrace the ambiguity. Let's do it. It life's a lot cooler when you get to experience that without any substances because you like, truly fear, feel the fear or feel the I feel all the feelings and I think that's awesome. But yeah, it's very similar in terms of, ah, people who want to be extreme.

What were some of the other things you learned eso You learned that you could actually really enjoy social experiences?

I thought people would think that I was a weirdo. Like I thought that I would, like, put a damper on people like I would ruin their evening by saying like, Oh, no, I don't drink. That was a huge fear mine. It wasn't the case and anyone who was a friend of mine who thought that that was weird. They're not my friend anymore. And I'm happy I don't have them My life. I thought that, like so I would go to the bar and I order. I drink a lot of now non alcoholic beer. I really like that or I'll just drink water or a Sprite. Um, and I thought that for years people would think I was like,

Well, I'm not gonna do this because people are gonna think I'm a weirdo. That's not that big of a deal at all. Um, it was way over. Played. Um, I thought girls wouldn't like me because they just thought I wouldn't be fun. You know what I mean? It was a huge crutch. That's also not the case at all. Or at least the type of women I wanted to be with the woman. I end up getting married to Sarah. She loved that about me, and that was great.

It was Was it a conversation starter and one of the first? Yeah.

Directions. Yeah. And interestingly, like people like interesting people. And if you say I don't drink and they say, why do like, Well, I just had an issue there, like, Oh, that's cool. Tell me like that. That's a

cool you're about creating. Avoided? Yeah, people into

their like, Oh, you've got Ah, you've got

a cool story. I've got issues I want to hear about your spurs. Yeah, it makes me feel a little bit like we have a connection. Yeah, people like that. And that

was awesome. I was like, Oh, like I thought this thing was gonna I was so afraid of this. Turns out people like to be around people who are a little screwed up because they I could entertain them.

Ellen, we all are. And so I can actually be my version

of weird. Yeah, I was cool. So those are some of the things I've learned? Um ah, man. Alcoholic makes you really fat. Known, healthy. And I didn't realize how bad that was. Um, eso that helped a lot. I learned how to be healthier human

being. Yeah, when I stopped Ah, drinking. I guess I probably drink once a month. But when I stopped during regularly, it was man, I got great sleep. Had no idea how much it was impeding

its were you like when you're in college like I was and I was drinking a lot. You just think that that's how you just feel in the morning. You're

like, Oh, wait. No, I'm not a morning person.

I would see these guys, like, get up at 6 a.m. And like, exercising.

Like, how do you do that? Ah, it's not that hard. Uh, well, it and walk me through, um, some of the experiences you've had that would map to that addiction with with the hustle or and I do want to touch on Also, uh, I mean, actually your business career goes back to hot dog stand. Yeah, probably before that, which will touch on. But what are some of the things that you actually look at now you like? OK, that might be outside. That might be too extreme in my addiction to X, Y or Z within running

a business. Yeah. So, like, um, I'm very anal about, like, expenses. And so, like, because we're bootstrap. We didn't raise BC, Um And so, like, on my phone, any time there's a credit card purchase, I get an alert.

And at times, like I would see, like, a $12 thing, like a $12 a month subscription. And we you know, we make a lot of money, so $12 is no big deal, but I would see that. And that would be like What the hell on? I would cause a fuss about it. And we don't need this. You guys see? Look, you can do it like you don't need this paid subscription. You could do it for free by doing this,

or you could download it for free, like illegally like of you. Like like and then I've had a chill a lot in the past year. I'm like, Wait a minute, that's not It's not worth causing a fuss over. It's no big deal. So a lot of, like, extreme stuff like that, like, I'll just go to the extreme or like, um, like I just got the idea of, like, I'm like,

we should be more more of a remote company. And so, like, I'll come to my guys, My leadership team will be like, Let's we're gonna get rid of the office tomorrow Like we have to get rid of it tomorrow. We have to do this and it's like, Okay, wait. It doesn't always have to be that way. It doesn't always have to be, like, all the way or not all the way. Like you can ease

into stuff. Yeah, Yeah, that is, um that does seem very, very Ah, that's just similar to so many entrepreneurial stories or founders where it is, it is. It is kind of all or nothing, and I mean, it's why start the company in, and it can provide a lot of success early on, Yeah,

I think in some regards you should be all or nothing. And some things it works, right? You just want to do it for everything. Uh, do you know what I mean? It's like for a long time I was like, uh, like I said, I was I'm very frugal, but I was, like, really frugal. And I was like, All right, fine. We'll do some catered lunches every once in a while,

and then I would be like, all right, But this 17 99 compared to this one, which is 12 99 per head, we're gonna do this one and people will. Then we'll just go up by, like, the generic catch up. So to save money on the like, it's like it doesn't you know, I don't have the That doesn't have to be the one that is

all or nothing. How big is the hustle now in terms of people And and I know that it's is yeah. It is a massive cultural trend for for yes, only people our age. We

started the company, so I worked with you. Spoke at one of our events in 2016. So are 16 or 7

15 15. I think it was maybe the 1st 1 hustle

Khan. And that was one. Okay, Okay. Okay. So this right now, we're about 30 employees. Eight figures in revenue, seven figures, income or profit. Um, we'll double that next year. I mean, it's doubling. We turned. I tell people we turned three years old on, basically May 1st of a few months ago.

Um, in reality, I had been working on this as a project in 2015 but the way we started was just a conference. I had sold the business and I was looking for something to do. I created this conference, which is called Hostile Count is like a Ted talk for entrepreneurs. And I just used an email list to make it popular. And you spoke at one of them and ah, lot of great people spoken one of them, and originally the plan was I'm just gonna do this to kill time and, like, find an idea to work on. And it made the 1st 1 made, like, 60 grand in six weeks. The 2nd 1 that you spoke out,

I made a quart of a $1,000,000 in 80 days and I didn't spend a lot of money, so it was like, mostly all profit. Um, and I was like, OK, I don't wanna be a conference organizer forever, but this whole email thing

and where did you get the Moelis?

Well, I didn't have one. I created S o the way that I made the the event popular was the home page of hustle con dot com was pretty much just enter your email and then you could see you like information. But so, like, the first week I had 200 people who were subscribers, and those were just my friends. I just downloaded their contacts from Gmail or from lengthen. And I just said, I'm adding you to this if you don't want to be on it to Sunset Strip. But I did 200 people on there and then I would trade content on each speaker and, ah, that I just figure out how to like it traffic to it. And then I had an automated email sequence. So, like everything that I had written in the past would get emailed to anyone who recently signed up, signed up,

Um, and that created like this this machine where I was able to get 10,000 emails relatively quickly, and that was the only marketing channel in those 10,000 emails collectively made close to $300,000. So I was like, That's kind of cool And I had talked, You know, you invest in D C companies. That idea didn't exist in 2014 or 15 but I had always known that email was a very profitable channel for commerce companies, and I was like, What if we like the I don't want to like to be a conference organizer, but I had just read the biography of Ted Turner had read. The biography of Rupert Murdoch was like those guys, that seems like a cool lifestyle because, like regardless what you think of their politics, they shape culture and they built huge companies and it seems exciting, like Ted Turner had guys in ah had reporters in Iraq in the first invasion and was like,

That's exciting there, like in the mix. That's kind of interesting. So I was like, I was able to commit these people via email to attend these events, and it made money. What if we just used the information for like as the product at first. And so that's when the idea of the hustle came to be. So. At this point, we have well over a 1,000,000 readers a day. Um, it's a good size business, and it will continue to get bigger. But the intention from Day one was, let's build up this huge email list of people and monetized through advertising.

But then let's continually launch more products to them that are not just like media, because with an email list like you can have, like a $25 million a year business with, like two writers like it's really efficient. So we just said, Let's use all those profits and that audience to build more stuff and that's what we're doing. And

I want to talk about some of the new products that you guys are launching a really cool like trends. But welcome back through. Um, so one of things that I love to learn about you was that you started with a hot dog stand. Yeah, And how did you go from hot dog? Stand to to the hustle

with Yes. OK, we have similar roots. Like probably I'm from Missouri, ST Louis, Missouri. My dad and my mom and dad owned a small business. Um, like it was a fruit stand that turned it into a produce brokerage company. Um, I went to Nashville, Tennessee, toe for college. I met this guy named Mike Wolf. Do you know? Have you heard that name?

Ah, it does sound.

He said he was on American pickers.

Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I thought on the street in Nashville Yeah, Yeah, I saw him on the street National. I was like Mike, a huge fan in that conversation, he told me he was starting a store in Nashville and he asked and I asked him if I could help run it or work there, and he let me. And at that store, we would have, like thousands of people lined up to come to the store was packed. And But there's nothing to eat around there. And I didn't have any money. I was 20 years old. I was like, I should open a hot dog stand like, just put it right here. And so I convinced a guy like loaned me his stand for a month and I would pay him deferred lease payments if I rent payments or whatever to buy the stand.

And I only have $500. And I started this hot dog thing and it started working. And we would have, like, stands out like the radio, like, you know how like, ah, radio stations have summer events for free for the city. I would like, finagle my way and to be there, vendor or I would have stands outside the bars at night. Um, and you like, double the prices for drunk people.

And this is why you're going

to college? Yeah. I was a junior in college. I would just I set up my classes, so I only had classes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. And they all started, like, at three. PM and would end at nine so I could work at. I could work from 11. Am until three. And then I would go to class, and then I would work from, like, nine PM toe like midnight, and it worked out well, um,

and it was making good money. It was cool. Some days, on a slow day, I would make $150 in profit. On a great day. I could make, like, $1000 in profit. And it was all cash. So it was great. And then around the time I started, like an online store with called moonshine online that sold, like alcohol alcohol in mind. Basically, it wasn't real moonshine. It was just I just saw that moonshine was getting popular and I just created a store for and it started making money as well.

Man, how do you I don't want to interrupt this story, but it's making me want to just ask. Like what? Were you always opportunistically at finding these things when you're Yeah.

Yeah, just always doing that stuff. Like, um, like, I remember my brother was this seven years older than me, the seniors in high school. He ran cross country and track and field would just throw away their gear when they were done. And I'd like to give me your spikes. I'll take him, and then you just sell him till, like, on eBay or something incoming. Yeah. So I was always, like, doing little hustles like that or Yeah, just weird stuff like that.

Well, it is, ah, question that I usually save for later in the interviews, but I. It's making me want to ask you about 23 stories that have helped shaped who you've become in your life in which which two or three stories come to mind when you look back in like, Yeah, that was a pretty similar moment for for shaping Mia's as as an individual.

Well, so I would say one of the stories was, I was doing this hot dog thing and this, like, little Internet thing online, and I was a senior in college, but it would make like, a grand a day across all of my little schemes, and I was like, This is I'm rich. It's the greatest thing ever that I met this guy named Casey who's I'm still great friends with, Ah, he's Although he's maybe 15 years older than me, he was like, Man, um, like there's this company called Air Bed and Breakfast.

That's kind of interesting there in Silicon Valley, Like what? Silicon Valley. He's like it's in California and I'm like, Oh, by L. A. And he's like, No, I have never been to California and he was like, No man Google and I googled it. I'm like, This is awesome. This is where the Internet companies are. I got to go out there. So once I learned about that,

I left school and moved out here. Um, so that was, like, probably the big thing, that someone opened my eyes that like, do you like you could be. This could be like a really big thing. Not like these little schemes, so that I think that was probably

a big life. That's huge, right?

And then, um, just coming out to San Francisco. And so I had interviewed at Airbnb where you were and I had met Joe Gavea and I was like, This guy is just a guy and like but this office there's like maps on the wall. There's young people everywhere,

like these schemes can be huge. And when it was going schemes well, like which, which is, that's what they are. Airbnb

was just a website that would have Craigslist, and you could like post year like couch like that's like who on earth would ever thought that that's like, That's weird and I had heard about it. It was like these guys are pulled one over a people that I went to the office. It was like this is like a thing. This is, like, legit. Like it doesn't have to be like a small, like, little half ass thing. This could be like a huge company. And I met Joe when I was interviewing there, and that was, like, pretty life changing where I'm like Oh, my God.

Like this isn't just like a story you read about on the Internet. Like I could know this guy. Like I met this guy, right? That was amazing to

me. Is not that different than

me? Yeah, Yeah, that was that was mind

boggling. That is one of the most powerful things I think for for being here or honestly, just percent wherever you are, even in Cape Town. Ah, When I lived there for a few years, meaning entrepreneurs there, when I was 22. 23 I was like, Yeah, they don't seem that different from me. And

will you learn that they're not that much smarter, right? Sometimes they could be, but a lot of times they'll be dumber than you. But they just get it done

right. They take the risk. Or they met people that didn't seem that much more than them when they were 14 or 15 or eight, right? And and that was an experience that allowed them to say, OK, give my myself permission to do this as well. And that is, that is, that has been a continual threat, even at 33. It is a story I see over and over and over again of all, meet someone that's phenomenally successful. Usually it's the really smart, usually really kind, even take the time to meet. And and I walk away me like it's,

you know that it is not. It's doable. It's doable. It's not some superhero that is gifted with with flight or laser vision. It's actually just like you said. They just

started doing it. And those people do exist like there are just like geniuses, and they're just like, Oh my God, that person's at another level. But to hit like a really like are to be really successful, like there's a ton of average people who are really successful, and once you realize that, it's like, Oh my God, I could shape my own reality. And so meeting Joe Gabby a meeting Mike Wolf, the guy on the TV show meeting All these people. I was like, Oh my God, people like shaping the world's are like building. These buildings are building these companies like they're not. They're nice and they're smart, but they're not world class. That's really cool. Let's do that.

World class is attainable. Yes. Yeah. Is is such a salient point, I think, for for burners aspiring entrepreneurs for And it's one of the great things working at an early stage start up. If even if you're not part of the earliest team, you just have these interactions with these leaders that you say, okay, they're not that different from me,

right? And you put him on a pedestal and need me them. You're like, Do you like your so normal?

Right? Just tended to take a risk, and that is the that is the the appetite. You have to have to take a risk. But if you're if your orientation is towards learning as much as possible, then it's pretty risk free way to learn a shit ton to actually.

So, yeah, I think about that all the time, which is a risk. I think most people don't understand risk

how to walk

me through how they don't they don't understand. Like, here's how I think of risk. I, like, got really into this because I remember moving here and I didn't have anything above you. I spent all the hot talk money on dumb stuff and so I only have like $1000. And I had sold my pick up truck for five grand. So it's $6000 I moved here and I was I didn't have a job. I was very scared and I would freak out about it. I'm like, All right, let's think about this. Let's really dive deep. The worst case scenario is let's just not including getting on, Being on healthy are getting cancer or something. But really,

the worst case scenario is that I'm gonna be coming to go homeless. I'm gonna live on the street. Okay, What would I do if I did that? Well, I would probably beg and get $10 with that, $10 are going by some bottled water. And then with that bottled water, I would sell it and, like, I would just kind of keep him like Am I comfortable doing that? I think so. I think I think I'm pretty comfortable. Like I would do that for a year if I had to. As you when I was young. Okay,

so what's the best case scenario? And I think of what the best cases like. All right, I'm willing to accept that. The worst case scenario and I really want the best case scenario. That is a risk worth taking. Do you know what I mean?

Right. That is such a great mental framework to to two employees. When when thinking about risk is like, What is the worst case and my

comfortable with that? And if you're not comfortable, you could fix it so that you're not comfortable living on the street. Then it's like, OK, would I be comfortable being in uber driver and making the minimum wage? I think so. Okay, well, why don't you just take a little bit of money you have now? I'm going buy a car. There's your backup plan. You now have a or you could, like go on research how you can lease ah civic for, like, a very affordable rate. And,

um, there there's your backup plan. You're good or let's say, like in reality, with a lot of people in San Francisco. The worst cases you'll work at IBM or like Cisco or something, and you get paid a lot of money. That was like, All right, well, just go and meet some people from there. All right? Your backups good. You're good. You're like the worst case is is if you're comfortable with that worst case and you already set it up so that it's probable swing

and anything, it's it's just it powerful Teoh. I love that because it is one. You just just go into that fear. Imagine visualize how how much of a worst case scenario would actually be, and and if you could get comfortable with it, then boom. Yeah, you've just dearest it. And it's just a powerful, maybe not as powerful. But it's still. It's also powerful to visualize the other worst case where you stay at IBM are you stay at the company that yet are you In your case, you stay in. Were you in Nashville? It's time you stay in national and then you fast forward to that worst case where you're at IBM or wherever it is, and you're like OK,

force cases 45 three kids way more expensive to take the risk. For 23 years, I've wondered if I should, and you should have never did. Yeah, that's a pretty And then and then it's like, OK, the financial situation is, is makes it so hard to take that risk of shit. That worst case is I accidentally get locked into not doing it now and then from 45 until 85. I'm wondering, should I have? I've done it when I had the energy and

and you should have often the answer is yes, like just because the another thing about taking risks, particularly business risk, given that we have Facebook and Twitter and snap on Instagram nowadays is if, as long as people, if people see you taking that risk and you fail, you're gonna get a cab or you're

gonna get something going to be more

marketable, right? So like And that's why I think that for many people who at least who are listening to this podcast or who we're going to start Internet business business, the likelihood that your worst case scenario is pretty good. It's quite high, I think, right? Do you know what I mean? It's It's pretty high. Eso like take that

swing and it's such a such a great when you become someone that is it. Like you said, creating something and you're reaching out to people about creating something and saying, You know, your pushed you you're actively going to push a car that invites really smart, amazing around. It's awesome for you to get to know

them. Yeah, and it's quite amazing that that happens, but, like it's, I just don't think that people measure risk appropriately. Um, that, like the downsides, are always pretty high. It's not like we live like turn of the century or something, where there's not a lot of like there's not interesting things, don't know in medicine or we're gonna die like the average age is not 50 like we have a lot of like, Do you have to think about a really high level of like, OK, can I like? Am I going to go hungry tonight?

It's like, likely know is like a tiger going to come out and like, grab me and kill me? No, it's like, Man, this is pretty cool. Like Aiken, be happy. I can find happiness in this in the in the worst setting

I a topic that I think I don't think about risk too much. But one of the things that I do think about is is safety. And if we all consciously knew how safe we actually were, how the world would be different,

particularly if you're an American and a big city compared to, let's say, centuries ago or some other countries now, like it's pretty were set

up nicely. Yeah, Cape Town is the murder capital of the world, and it is moving from there back to the U. S. Just had a crazy new appreciation for for for being in the U. S. And then in San Francisco, and things can't

improve, no doubt about that. A lot of stuff it can improve. I'm not saying that, but I am saying that when you really think about how we compared to other times in the world or other places in the world, if you are an American in a major city, the downsides pretty, pretty solid,

right? And I mean, there's so there are there's research that shows that were how conservative week we become when we feel unsafe and so you have these 24 hour news cycles. You have this just reptilian brain. That's kind of thinking through, Okay, Where the risks Where that where could there possibly

be? And the people who understand that the best are immigrants. My, most of my best friends are immigrants, and they're the ones who taught me this. They're like, Dude, I came from another country with nothing like and I'm like, doing pretty good. Now I don't care. I'm happy. Like this is awesome. Like one of my best friends is from Ah, Hey, moved here at the time. It was Soviet Union and he was a Jewish guy. And he's like,

Do we had a, like, not tell anyone we're Jewish like because they're gonna kill us? Um, like, and we came here with nothing like, I don't need anything. I'm happy like this is awesome. So once I want to have a bunch of ah oh are my fiancee. Her mom is from Haiti. She's an immigrant. And when you hear stories about what it's like to come here with nothing, you're like, why am I not taking more risk like these guys did it? And anyway,

no, I think it is Ah, I think those two are related to risk and safety and understand the real risk and understanding how safe we actually are to be able to take risk. I think it's Ah, it is yet two sides of a similar of of the same topic of recognizing, appreciating just the opportunity that you seem toe find each each it step. Ah, seeing opportunity

where most I read this great book. It's very weird. It's called the 50th Law and it's about 50 Cent. Very weird, I know, but And it was hell was. They said he goes, I think my powers I could turn shit into gold. And when I read that, I was like, That's totally the way to live like you just find its gold in the like

that and that that those little nuggets of wisdom then become just this. Ah, this thing that you kind of think about her Go back to its I this quote that are a phrase that my one of my board members, Jeff Jordan, from Entries and Hauritz, said one time that always I mentioned on the podcast always sticks with me. Is, he said, I think my superpower is I can get over pretty much anything in 24 hours and I didn t think like, Oh, shit, I can probably get over anything in about three days And now because I know I'm going to get over pretty much anything in three days, I get over it within about 24 hours. And that nugget of wisdom, it's like, Oh, wow,

that's actually something that I and I think most humans can also get over almost anything in in three days totalling. And it is when you recognize that it's really does for you up toe to take some lumps along the way, realizing up three days and they will all adapt to it. One of things I don't want to ask you about his, um you are, man. There's there's a couple. There's so much in there to unpack, But something that I do want Thio Thio ask you about You are really into, um it seems like you're really into life design and choosing becoming San Francisco opportunistically, but also just being, um, really conscious of how you design your life and it comes out in your Facebook post, comes out in the hustle. Sometimes walk me through when you started even Just start to think about Oh, I can create and construct my own life in my own way.

I think that I had always This is kind of like a little bit woo, but I realized, uh, maybe at 18 or 19 I'm like, I don't really want to be a business person. I want to be like I'm a I could manifest my I can, like, manifest my dreams Like I could just build my reality person like I'm not a business person. I'm just Whatever I think I want, I could just make that real. Uh, and that sounds like kind of woo. But I get it.

What, What 18 made you think that way. Did you think that way? A 12.

Well, I just remember like going to concerts when I was 16 and I'm like, let's go backstage and people would be like, Ah, we don't have passes. I'm like, guys we could talk to, weaken, talk the security guard into this. Like rules don't have to apply like we can work around it. And I just remember being wouldn't do that, And I was like, Okay, I'm not I'm not a person. I'm not. Well today. I don't consider myself a business person.

What I try to do is think about what I want. And I could just make that riel. Um and so, um ah, in terms of life design like you think about once you start, once you get past like that, can I pay my bills stage? It's easy to be like, All right, I need more money. I need to buy more stuff. And I've always tried not to do that. And instead, it's been like, I just I want to die a happy man and, like,

be like, have spent the limited time on earth. And I'm not necessarily happy State, but like I'm being fulfilled. And so I always you have tried to just say, like, what would make me happy, And I'm just gonna make that true. Um,

what are some of those things that you that you know about yourself now,

Um um, like, there's a whole bunch of little schemes that I've done that have made that like and these air like, really small ones. But I just hate doing my laundry, and so I just what? Go on Craigslist, and I just found someone who would just come to my house for $30 just do all my laundry and fold it for me. Just like little things like that. And $30 isn't a lot of money, but it's a tiny example of like I'm just not like, Why do we accept that we have to do that like, I'll just go out and figure out how to make $30 to pay this woman to come do this or, um, moving to San Francisco is one like I hadn't graduated college and I'm I had never been north of, uh, west of Colorado, and people like, Why are you doing that's like because I want to and I'm gonna figure out how to do it like, That's why there's no other reason other than I just want to, um,

it brings up a thought that you touched on in Ah, in another podcast that I that I loved where you talked about going to New York. If you're on a road trip to New York. Yeah, you do you mind telling telling listeners about this kind of Ah, this this approach that that you view towards life and entrepreneurship.

Yeah. So I've always I've noticed that a lot of people do this, and what they do is they say, like, they're not going to do something because they worry about like, let's just say, like, someone must have tried to start a T shirt company and there, and it applies to anything. Not just business, but let's say they want to start a T shirt company. They're like, Well, what if, like, the owner of the logo sues May sues me or what if, like,

um, I get too big, how am I gonna ship these shirts to people I'm like? It just seems very Just don't worry about that. Just figure out, Like are is anyone gonna buy your T shirt? So when I did ah, motorcycle, uh, in 2014 that road to celebrate my one year being sober. I rode my motorcycle from here to New York and back. It took six weeks, and I I purposely didn't plan was going to do it, so I would wake up in morning. I'm like, All right.

Where am I gonna go? Where am I gonna stay? How am I gonna figure this out like there was no plan. And I don't have a lot of money back then. Um so it was like I only have, like, 50 bucks to spend a day on food, gas and a place to sleep. Um, and I just very distinctly remember like my headlight. Your headlight only has to see, like, 200 feet ahead of you to get from here to New York, which is a 35 100 mile trip. Um, you only have to see 200 feet ahead of you in order to go 3500 miles.

I'm like, Oh, man, that's like this is like, I guess I was reading a lot of philosophy books at the time, like, but this is life.

You actually only be in, like, 200

feet out of you in order to get really far. That's all I need. So I just have very purposely trying to think like, um, maybe only a It's kind of weird. You have to have, like, 10 year plans and five year plans, but you really only need the answer for, like, a couple months in front of you, and you can figure it out along

the way right. It's like it's helpful to know where you want to end up, and then the next 200 feet, and that's it, or you're gonna be the next 90

days. You just have to be open to changing it. Yeah, and most people suck it that they're not very open to ambiguity.

Yeah, what are some of the times that that you I imagine there have been many. What are some of the times that you haven't been happy in this life design or in the entrepreneurship, your path of the hustle? Have there been moments and windows where it's

been? Yes.

Oh, shit. What did I dio or how did I get here?

I think OK, so I've started working on this business, so I have I started work on this business five years ago, but in the 1st 2 years, I was doing loads of different stuff, so it wasn't full time on it. So I've been doing this like as a job, and it's been a proper company for about 3 3.5 years now. And I remember when we first started, I looked up to remember when I met you, I looked up the guys like you are looked up to like these guys from Y. C. And, um, I was like, Man, these guys had this great idea,

and now they're leading this huge company with all these people. I'm going to do that. And then with the hustle I started, like hiring a bunch, and I was like, I'm gonna run on the meetings. I'm gonna do this. And I got in Year two, I was I nearly quit. I was like, I don't want I don't want to do this anymore.

This is like, a year ago,

a year ago. So I was two years into doing it full time, four years into it, being like, ah, thing that paid my bills. Um, I was like, I'm quitting. The sucks. I'm out. Um, because I was like, I have to I have to be like a CEO. I have to, um, dressed a certain way.

I have to act a certain way. I have to ah, do all these things and it hit me. I'm like, I don't have to do that. And I hate running meetings. I hate like leading company presentations. I don't like that. And so I hired a president. We promoted one of the guys that works at a company Adam Ryan, and he's basically he's kind of the CEO. I mean, he runs the day to day operations and that, like, maybe way, way,

way happier. And so now I get kind of nitty gritty and some products stuff. I focus on a lot of big strategy stuff, and I don't have to worry about, like, presenting or I don't have to worry about, um, maybe like attending every meeting and making sure things are on track because he loves that. And I hate that. So, uh, yeah, learning

that I was Was that a pretty scary moment where you're like,

Oh, yeah, this everyone. Yes, everyone talks about delegating and how you have to do it. It's really hard, Um, because you're like, Why I started this thing? It's mine. It's I has to be my way. The vision has to like every detail has to be this way because, ah, I'm a creative genius and just and then it you kind of like, want to hire great people. You're like, man,

this person's way smarter than me and their ideas. Airway better. I should just kind of get out of the way. And that's really scary because you think everything is going to crash and just come burning down. And if I think if you do a good job of hiring, that won't be the case.

And early on it's very hard to do a good job. So you do hand things over and they do crash and burn. Or at least they definitely can go where you can have a little bit of, ah, history of like, Oh, shit. Well, that didn't go well.

Yeah, but you can create cool systems toe where that won't happen. So, like Adam and I had, like, a trial period. So we spent like there was like, Adam, I want to do this for the next three months. Like, what's improvised? Act like you're the boss. Um, anything Any bill that is above $5000. You have to ask me for permission. Um, you can't hire anyone. You can't fire anyone. Um,

but have this interim period instead of Yeah, What most we will just kind of feel like All right, let's do this. Yeah, and it's ah, on

or off. Switch. Yeah. It's really and that was great. And so now we have, like, rules of engagement. So, like if there's any software that will cost more than 15 grand, um, my default will be like I trust you, but just bring it to my attention. Let's have a conversation about it. Any major product changes that you want to dio it's gonna be a conversation. Oh, are, um,

every week I need it. I want to see cash flow statements balanced. She ah, balance sheet and income statement and doing things like that. It really helps you trust

someone. Do you? Do you think being a bootstrap story is maybe the one, especially in Silicon Valley, where this is not the trend way? Do you think that's been a huge reason off? You having that flexibility of saying, Oh, let's just reinvent roles.

Yeah, it's awesome. It's great. So I get jealous. I see. I remember seeing your company and you guys had rate raised 30 30 million or whatever it was. It was even more than that. We raised 70 71 round was 30 I think right up, and I remember seeing that I'm like, Want that And

by the way, stop sometimes goes to show you how little you know the bell for the line version in the below the line version. But sometimes

I still want that, though, like, you see, like, sometimes it would be fun, toe. You know, if long as you know, you're getting into, like, I'm betting it all that

could be fun sometimes. Yes. I knew it was what we decided. I mean, it was like we had always said, From day one, we're gonna go in bigger going home, and we were very comfortable with either. Yeah,

and I think that could be fun. I would I plan on doing that eventually? Um, but with being bootstrapped,

well, let's check that we can chat ad nauseum before you do, but it's ah, but it yes, it by by design. Sometimes it's like, let's swing for the fences because I also don't want to be 65 realize ocean. I should have swung for the fences a couple

times. Yeah, and as always, you're comfortable. Like for me, I would only do it just that I think is exciting. And if I lose it all as long as I'm OK with that great but for us, we're bootstrapped. So when we started, when we started the company, we had $300,000 in the bank that came from the conference is the first year business we did like, let's say, two million and then, like we double we over double that, and then we're gonna double that again. Um, and in your three,

um, but when you are only making $2 million.2 million dollars comes out to be 100 $60,000 a month. Um, which means a team of five in Stanford, a team of four in San Francisco is probably 40 grand a month if you're like hiring young young people who don't have high health insurance, things like that. So basically, you don't have a lot of room to screw up, and there's not a lot of room it all. And so for us, I remember like I always always knew I was. I went to bed at night thinking we're gonna go on a business next month, and that was really stressful, but it makes you understand how to do certain things. Now we're at the point where we actually still act that way, too.

much when it's like, man, this is stable. Let's swing harder that swing bigger and take bigger risks. But when we were first starting, we didn't have the opportunity to take the big risks. So we did like a not slow. I mean, it was doubling in revenue, but it was We definitely were a lot more steady than a lot of than I would have wished we could have been, though. Turns out it was a blessing.

How long did you go thinking? Okay, we're gonna go to business sex.

Um, well, I remember. So our first office costs $500 a month in rent, and I remember being like what? We have to agree to that every month. That's so like I can't do this. Ah, but I would say that actually, last year I was like, OK, like the worst case scenario is this company will make, like, $15 million in revenue and, like have like, seven billion in profit every year. And once I realized that I'm like,

all right, we're good. It feels good to finally. So I'm probably up until last year, did I feel like we're going on business like I was paranoid, constantly paranoid,

did it? How did it affect you and your relationships? How did it affect you in general? Just horrible. I remember that constant paranoia and and my wife just says you have for the six years you were just different.

It's horrible. It's hard, You're unhappy. I I got I got tested recently because not recently a year ago, because my I felt like my testosterone was like too low because I was feeling tired and depressed all the time and it was really low. It turned out to be quite low, and I think it was from years of like freaking out being stressed. And I think that I don't think there's any way to get past that. I think you have to go through that. Probably you are to do something great. But I was able I saved a lot of money like I would pay myself. Not a lot, but I would not buy anything and I was able to save. And once I hit a threshold of ah had years of savings, Um, I didn't worry anymore, or I didn't worry as much, right, and that helped a ton

kind of at the same time being comfortable with the worst case but also protecting against it to wear that yes, cases got better

and better. What I always call it, I would protect the downside eso like I didn't So my first, the first year business. I paid myself only $2000 a month, which we went to rent basically and like really shitty food. And then it was like All right now I could pay myself, like, 50 grand this year And then, like halfway through the years like, Oh, I can raise up to 100 grand, But all the while I'm only spending like $2000 a month, So I'm able to save ah ah lot. And then I would just do all these little things on the side because I had always been like I said, scheming. And those little odd things would make two or $3000 a month sometimes. And I would just save like, crazy and save

like crazy. And I think it's Ah, that's a is worth underscoring that you started the hustle with about making 24 k years

and, well, yes. So what happened was, um, I had sold a business I didn't sell for a lot. But I was at the end of their really walked away with $25,000 in the bank. And when you're 23 that's enough toe like that's enough, right? Right. That's enough to try something. And so I had 25 k in the bank, and then I did the first hustle con, and I thought that that was gonna break even. But I had spent 10 grand and made 60 grand, so I had about a profit of 40 or $50,000. So that put money in my bank account,

but now minus taxes. And then I had only I only technically, it was the business account. So it wasn't mine, but it wasn. I'll see. Um, but anyway, so it's like, All right, well, I have this business account with, like, 40 Karan, um want to try this other thing. And that's when you spoke of nothing, and that made good money. Um and so all in all like my personal income was quite low. But

the minute I met one of ah, my first angel investments at house Okan who third love

Oh, you were put your

part of that? Yeah. God bless you. Gotta give you like Perry. Yeah, I know you guys. Ah, man. Yes, I remember Hustle con fondly for speaking in for meeting Heidi.

Not that was a good return. Probably does. They're they're doing a wonderful job, but anyway, the, uh I don't remember. I was

talking about the over 2025 k, then. Yeah, okay.

Yeah, but I actually was showing Adam our president. I was like, because I was complaining to him about I was just venting to him, and I did this one thing of, like, people don't know, Like all the sacrifice. I was like, Check this out. I, like, showed up my for my tax report from 2014 and 15 and it was one year was $22,000 in the next year. I think is $32,000. That was my only personal

link in San Francisco. Yeah,

well, I did a I did a thing where my rent was low because I I that 25 grand that I had I spent nearly all of it to rent a four bedroom house and I furnished it. And then I went found people that for roommates for it. And they and I took the shittiest, smallest bedroom. And I don't want to spend $500 a month and ah, so I was ableto live very poorly,

right? Did it feel for

or do you know, I was perfectly happy looking back. It was disgusting. I mean, I lived there until I was 27 probably, and it's pretty filthy. It was like a frat house, But I was happy.

I don't know. I moved out here, slept on an air mattress, had one bag of clothes in a house with 66 guys,

four bedrooms, most

five guys. So So, yeah, where I was in a room with with another guy. Well, I like actual roommates in a room with another guy's

bedroom that I would sleep in. It wasn't supposed to be a bedroom. It was basically, I think, was considered a huge closet, like a storage unit because, uh, he was only able to listen as a four bedroom. But I saw the fifth thing in the basement. I was like, Oh, yeah, mine

got it. As its schemes on schemes. Yeah. Yeah, well, you know which is which I love. And

that was in Glen Park. Yeah, and I ended up moving down the block from where that was, but I found that house and I was like, Boom, there's my A team like that will provide. Aiken. My rent was 400 or $400 a month. It's like that's mine. I could I could make do with that. Ah, and it was looking back. Yeah, is discussing it like it has molded it. I used to have this. The landlord had to give me this. I guess it's called a dehumidifier because of it.

Rained or got wet. The water would come into that room. It sucked. Yeah, but I didn't realize how bad it was at the time. But now, looking back, it was

disgusting. We've got one of those dehumidifiers right over there.

Yeah, it was a big one like that. Emptied out

all the time. Ah. So the you mentioned you mentioned that you from that? You know, being 27 in a mold written bedroom to now ah, company with with 10 million plus in revenue and ahead and loving the job again because of President um,

Adam says Yeah, Adam Ryan. I went

to high school with him. That's and finding kind of the right designed for for your working style. Ah, what is on the horizon for the hustle?

Yeah. So I think that this sounds like a stereo. Sarah. Typical tech bro. Thing to say. I think we could build a year, a business that makes a $1,000,000,000 a year. And for us with that, probably the way that will look like there's a handful of companies that do this that you probably never even heard of unless you're our nerd like me and look at the industry. But the way that it will look for us is I think we could build a B two B media giant. And the way that it will look for us is we're gonna have large events and trade shows. We'll have ah ah, affordable subscription services. So we have something that we just launch called Trends where we have a team of analysts and we just create databases and we write stories on interesting companies that we do. We deconstruct them and put the other mock p and l's and thousands of people pay $300 a month for their Ah ah, year for that,

saying a little bit more about trends because it is really

cool. It's kind of cool. So when our vision early on was, let's create this email list and then launch new products. And when I was researching what products, I would just start writing all these case studies room where and I would find these interesting business models and I would start writing about him and like, Oh, damn, I should publish these. And so an example is, um, what's an example of one that I really like that we've published trade show business is. Actually I did this one selfishly, cause I like that man. There's this company out. There are a couple companies out there that will make, like, three billion in revenue and one billion and operating and come off trade shows

what? That is

crazy. And so I, ah, when interviewed, all of the people who run these companies and I asked them a like, How do you do this? And so I broke down their expenses and I did like a deconstructed it and then be like, Where is the opportunity for growth? And they were like, Ah, a few things were, um, the construction industry like, Ah, there's not one big trade show for that. But we think we might get into that, get into that business.

Or they would say, um, what else did they say? Besides construction, they would say, um, the oil industry. So there's an Austin company called Break Up. Actually, that is Angel Investor. Yeah, and and there, some of these folks that have these, like oil focused media companies. Um, and they're like we actually think of some of these businesses could be huge. Rick up is one of them. And so

that is an awesome company.

I know. I've heard a lot about it in, um, anyway, we So we did a whole case study on this and asked where the opportunity is. And so that's an example of some of things that will do. And we produce those weekly, many of them each week. You

guys like dissect search trends and just different, like scraping

off. So it's a combination of loads of like, uh, looking at data points. So, like the search, the search searches for online plants right now are growing like crazy and Home Depot has makes a $1,000,000,000 a year selling plants and 1 800 flowers, has openly said that succulence young people are hoarding seconds like crazy. And then we looked at the search history and like there's very few of these companies that air selling plants online. And so we just did a report on that, Yeah, um, so we just scour the Web through millions of data points. But then also, we just read public reports, and then we'll just go interview them, and we just talked to them.

And so we do. It's kind of that's what trends is. I believe that millions of people will be interested in paying ah, two or $300 a year for that. So for us to become a huge business, which I want to do just because that seems fun is to do that, but for different verticals. So the hustle and trends is for an entrepreneurial tech vertical. But what if we created the same thing for lawyers? More. What if we created the same thing for oil

workers, new moms or

for yeah, well, for us, we will. We'd be interested in this not new moms but, um B two b.

I see.

Yeah. So things teachers, teachers, That's a good guy. Yeah. So, teachers and you, we ask ourselves, what? Is there a lot of people of who would want to advertise in this that wouldn't advertise on Facebook or Instagram? And, um, where would companies pay for their employees to subscribe or attend these events? Right. And so that's gonna we think, our business model. And so,

um, I think that we could build many different brands that each make many tens of millions, potentially hundreds of millions in revenue. And just toe Have we in order center email? We But we have a team of engineers. We built all of our tech from scratch. And so, um, it's like, Well, let's just use that technology in our backend operations and our strategy across loads of different verticals, and we think that's possible.

Well, going back to the metaphor of of the road trip to New York, Did you have this in your mind? No.

Early on, I had no idea I was

just 200 feet

ahead. Like it? Okay, there's your own RPS request for proposal. I didn't know what that was until like, or like Up until recently, I didn't know the difference between cash flow and revenue like No, I knew nothing. And I argue, really? Still don't know a lot. So no, I had no idea that existed. But I was pretty confident that if I just kept digging, I could find some treasures One on the way that would lead me down a different path. Yeah, eso No,

I had no idea this existed. But then once I dug into it, I realized that there are companies doing this that make billions of dollars a year in revenue and have market caps of tens of billions of dollars. And, of course, money isn't everything. But seeing that the scale of these things I'm like, Oh, I could do that. You know what I mean? Like like there's this company called, um, institutional investor dot com. It's owned by this company in Europe called Euromoney. They pretty much do. I guess we do what they're doing,

but they do it for hedge fund people. So they have hedge fund news and they do some research for them. Um, and they make 400 euros a year with huge margins and there's loads and loads of companies like this. And once I realized like, Oh, wow, that is possible.

Competed, be media coming out. That is really no.

One. Talks about B two b media. Huge like another examples. Gardner. They're not quite media, but close Our gardener. You know, Gardner, right? You know, they do like $6 billion a year in revenue. Wow, Um, or like there's loads of companies like this and they're huge. What kind of doing

that? So what is that? What is the next step or milestone that's on your mind towards towards

that path. So for us, we have hundreds and hundreds close to 1000 people have ever advertised with us. We have this. We have trends that's affordable. It's for like we call them pro Sumers. So people were consumers, but they're like freelancers and they pay money for the job. For us, it's Can we create something that are 1000 advertisers who have advertised with us? They're all like marketers. More autumn of the marketers coming create a subscription product or subscription community for those folks. So that's what we're exploring

now. And I would would you bootstrap that all the way through

Ideally,

but kind of asking now. And I'm on angel investing

as well. So we have Ah, ah. Lot of people who are interested in investing and I always have these conversations with people who wanna lead. Ah, round of let's say, five or $10 million. Um, we have those people in deck, but we purposely have not pulled the trigger on anyone. Um,

what is the mental calculus on whether you go from this bootstrap territory where you own and call all shots? Two? Yeah. Potentially crossing the Rubicon of then

VC backed. Well, we have I'm crazy about financial planning, so we have, like, a three year like monthly, like projections on Sometimes we've hit him, like, dead on. So, like, one time in 17 we made our 18 plan. We missed it by $400. I'm like, you know about that. But anyway, so we have,

like, our plans for tales in 19 and 20 and I have a plan of If we don't raise money, we can do this. And if we do raise money, we can do this. And so right now what? We're trying to think like so a first comes on to do. I like my life. And if yes, I'm not gonna screw it up by raising money, the second thing comes out is basically greed. Like I control my time. I control the company. Why would I want to give that up? Um, and then But then you gotta balance,

like, okay, but like, this opportunity is really big. And if I find when I enjoy working with, I would consider raising money and going after the opportunity. But if Aiken bootstrap it and still get the achieve the desired result, I'm gonna continue doing that for as long as possible. So a long story short come winter time we're gonna explore, We always explore raising money, and we always turned it down. Um, I mean, we've had acquisition offers and we've got it to the last day, and we're like, No,

we backed out. So anyway, we'll probably consider that in the next handful of months, because we always do. But we're probably really, seriously consider it next few months. But ah, the idea. Ideal situations. How do you can we build like a huge company while still maintaining, like, 60% ownership?

Well, that the likelihood of that Onley increases with. So if you look at the four and if I were toe to, uh, to think being your shoes and and think about it, I would say OK, the you have two options. Just stay bootstrap raised money The former Onley increases the optionality of the ladder. A lot of the latter obviously takes place of the former and without knowing any context, that But this is I love thinking through this types up without knowing any context. ID ID I would just in a separate conversation outside of this podcast happy toe chat or literally on this pockets, I would just push the thinking towards. Are you familiar with the mythical man Month? What's that? It's awesome. It's an engineering book those written decades ago, and it basically broke down that pouring Mawr engineers putting more engineers on a proper project actually extended the runway in which it was delivered. Oh, it's when

you have more people stuff, it makes it way slower, way slow. It's so frustrating. I get pissed about our company all the time. I'm skies will get were Let's act like we're poor like, and we have not like don't buy our way out

of this right and end. Um, I'd say from raising my experience of raising 70 million scaling 200 employees and three continents and nine countries and and then, looking back on it so much, I got learned so much, made so many mistakes, but one of things that I really look back on and say Man, we could have grown justice fast. It's 1/3 of the people in that mythical man had more common and, yes, had more fun. I mean, the equations, happiness equals experience. My is expectation. And if you triple the expectation internally of people, that might be two degrees from you that you don't interact with each day.

But now you've raised external capital with this vision that now it's not just kind of the optionality of this vision, but it's like we're gonna get there and we've got to get there. And every month and every quarter, we're gonna measure how we're doing towards that quote unquote there. Then that expectation goes up by three times. The experience needs to go up by three times. And if if you feel like OK, it would be more fun to have to go from your 30 people 30 to 50 60 70 maybe would go faster. But that's only going to increase your Let's say you're able to delegate even more. Let's say you have mastered the art of delegation. Now you're able to delegate more, your leaders able to delegate more and you quote unquote can accomplish more. But that experience of of delegating more, you know, increases. Let's say your personal experience goes up by 40% but the expectations have tripled,

and right now it sounds like the experience is a net positive over the expectation and then expectation could be really fluid and and not not get locked in. But if you raise 10 2030 million, the expectation gets locked in in psychological ways that, at least in my experience, it got locked in and psychological ways that cannot be undone. And we were 26 going for the fences. We just did not care what happened. It was like in that risk and safety calculations like weaken. If we fail in building a $1,000,000,000 business, it's OK, well get on with life. But the extent to which psychologies got locked in and kind of ratchet effect.

It's a do you regret it?

No, we had to if I had the choice. And Ryan Hoover was on the podcast a few episodes ago and just said his next thing won't be Venture backed and and I probably would agree with me, and my next thing won't be venture back. And I

think it's good if you could have the best of both worlds. So, like I own or owned shares in companies that are cash flow, businesses that make a lot of money in cash flow. Having that is awesome, I feel great. It feels so good right now. Now that makes me feel more comfortable with risking a lot more for a venture backed business.

That's that's true. And if you have that and that's the that's the I think hard, really hard thing for the for me, for my experience, when it was in this binary. Either it's gonna be massive or it's gonna be nothing kind of face. It was really difficult on my psychology, even though it was like I'm signing up for this. This this is the time to go really big man did I. Was I similar for years. I remember for the six years around until there's like four months when I thought we got something here for the other five years and eight months. It was like like you were describing of just, um, feeling like way behind the eight ball constantly.

Well, you also have to do the math. Okay, so companies, these air hypothetical numbers. Let's say you own 50% of a business that could sell for $50 million. First of all, $50 million is a ton. Actually, let's make it smaller. 30 million. Let's do you want 50%? You're gonna walk away with $10 million after taxes. That is a ton of money that is $10 million.

Life changing?

Yep. Never have to work again if you if you don't want to work, if you're if you live frugally, not even that frugally. But if you live within right. But that

e. I think they basically say it's like 15 million in the bank. You never have to think about money again, even if you live a pretty, pretty salt. If you have 10 million lavish,

if you have 10 million liquid Africa after taxes, you can probably safely withdraw, like $300,000 a year, Right?

Live in San Francisco,

right? And so 300,000. Just imagine living on a household income of $300,000 here and then always having that 10 million sitting there. Right? That's great of a That is great. Okay, Now ask yourself, Scott Belski. He's one of our investors. He was the one who taught me That kind of put this my mind. He was like, Look, we sold our company for was it 100 50 million aton of money? A ton of money And we had raised seven million and funding. Um, he was like, we could have raised more,

but then I'm gonna have to go out and sell this business for, like, four hunt $1,000,000 to get ticket the same outcome. Yeah, It's like, Man, I take this, That This is great. Take this one s Oh, yeah, You have to ask yourself that sometimes and you got a and look, we're all talking. We're talking about tens of millions of dollars here, so it's already a lot of money, but you gotta put your ego in check of like, what's possible. And what do you truly want? Um,

speaking of how how have you seem like a very self aware person? Ah, introspective. How have you gotten to a place where you see where you're very open?

I don't know. Maybe years. Years of therapy. Ah, no. Ah, well, which I do dio, but, uh, just tons of, like, reading these. Like how? Toe win friends and influence people reading, like, spiritually books. Basically reading. Yeah, reading.

Do you have a coach?

Yeah, I am. I have a CEO coach who we pay a lot of money for. Adam. Our president goes to him now, so, yeah, I've worked with him for eight months because we couldn't afford it, but thankfully, um, but before that, you know, it's crazy. When I quit drinking, I didn't have any money. I went to ah, basically homeless clinic in San Francisco and that doctor who I had then I pay her out of pocket,

and that's still my doctor. So in a way, I feel like I've always had her as a coach, and back then it was free. Um, now it's not free. So I guess I've always

had that really a therapist. Dr. Or Yeah, she

was a psychologist or ah, what's when the psychiatrist, What's one that prescribes medicine? Psychiatrist. That's what she was.

Really? You saw her through a homeless shelter?

Yeah, well, I was on obamacare, and, um, I because I had savings. Like I said, probably 25 grand, but I don't have income. So I qualified. And I just Googled, like, where do I go? And I just said one of them said, Soma Health Clinic, and I didn't know what that was. And I walked in and I was like,

I do not fit in here. What am I doing as a fuck it? I'll just talk to her. And I talked to her and I'm like, Here's the deal. I don't think I fit in. I don't know if I completely fit in with the scene, like, I feel like I'm not gonna literally be on the streets, but I'm here. She's like, Okay, well, let's just work together. And I did, and it was free. And then once I started making enough money where I didn't qualify for Obamacare, I, um I just paid her out of pocket because she worked at a private clinic as well.

And how much? Out of pocket asked

to 50 No. 1/70 session.

How often

would you go? Well, she's a psychiatrist, so not a she dies. She'll give me medicine if I d medicine which Ah, I used to dio um But she also will refer me to a therapist or something like that. It was 1 70 I would see her every if I was feeling bad. I would say every three weeks if I'm feeling good, which I feel good, it's like I check in with every eight weeks and I've been with her for since 2014. And so she's like seeing me like she knew me before I started my business. She knew me right when I was trying to get sober. She knew me before I met my wife. Um, yeah, it's

cool. Well, for any listens that have thought therapy would be too expensive, it is a great case study of how one he could start. You could

get it cheaper. You could get for 50 bucks a month, probably will. You could get for free if you don't have any income. But for 50 bucks a month, you can go to someone

is, um that is a great fact. Awake for I think a lot of people ah, feel like it's it's gonna be too expensive or they don't have to pay.

And I can be. It's expensive for me now because I can't afford it. And I pay for fancy shit, right? But it wasn't always that way. Yeah, you know me.

Thats that is awesome. Sam, Um, are there any topics that you think a lot about that you rarely get toe talk about or just that you just love

talking about? Yeah. I like talking about saving money and finances. I'm a huge nerd about that. I have, like, a a very good set up of using personal capital dot com tag are linked up with Wealthfront linked up with my checking account in my credit card. I'm a big nerd into that. Um so I like talking about that because a lot of people don't realize that they need to save their money because A it just makes discipline. And B if you save your money and realize that you don't have to buy a lot of fancy shit, you have way more options, right? Freedom? Yeah. And people can save way more money than

they think they can, Right? What is s So what is the biggest thing missing when you trapped with friends or other people that don't

think about this? They don't have a monthly budget, and they don't. If they do, they don't stick to it ruthlessly. Yeah. People don't know how much they spend each month.

Visibility? Yeah. So what are the tools that use again for

all? OK, so when I really didn't have a lot, I used my weekly budget. It's, ah, $10 app that I bought and I would write down every single thing that I ever spent. And I would give myself a budget of a certain of a weekly budget, and I had to tighten anything I bought. I would type it in like it's like my fitness pal. Type it in like, all right. I spent $200 on this clothing item. All right? Now, I only have $300 for us to the week. Um,

I would buy a coffee dollar 79. Type that in. It would tell me how much left and so I would see like shoot. I can't buy this right now. I gotta go. I gotta go to Safeway toe, get dinner as opposed to a restaurant. Things like

that and that really become fun. Kind

of. I loved it. I loved it because I just saw you getting cause. And then what I would do is I would I would link would use zey piers happy or whatever they call it. I would like my bank account to a spreadsheet. Make it so of my monthly. My trailing six months I would do my trailing six months spend divided by six. So my monthly burn and then I would take my current savings on All right now, I have this many months of burn saved up. And so each week, it's like, All right, cool. I just increase that by a little bit longer, and you're like, Wow, this is no longer months years.

I've got years and you're like, That's cool. Keep going. So, I mean, I would do that like crazy.

What are the tools that you use now again?

Personal capital dot com Do use that now. It's freaking awesome. It aggravates all your accounts and you could see um, I use Wealthfront. Um, I

That's for the savings

side of things. I used Wealthfront because I put a lot of money in there just ah, just they just invest in low risk stuff. I used Robin Hood basically I by the S and P 500 index funds and also by a ton of Facebook stock because I spent a lot of money on Facebook and I realize how amazing it is. Um, and then my years simple dot com as my bank account. Um, same. I also use allied dot com because they have, Ah, I don't believe in, like stressing out over, like, small percentage points. But allied dot com as well. A simple dot com has a 2.25% uh, interest rates on savings.

I think it's better to try to earn more money than it is tryto like do a little half a percent. My increases some things. Yeah, but I do that, Um, what else do I use? I use my spreadsheet. Still, I look in my spreadsheet and figure out how much what's my what's my burn and how many months or years do I have at my current

rate. And what do you do to create this spreadsheet? You said Xavier. Yeah. Do you mind walking me through specifically

how you created? Yeah, well, this was even before his a pure existed. What I would do is I My spreadsheet would have, uh I would connect it toe personal capital. And it's all right. Here's my liquid net worth. And then I would look at how much money I'd spent the previous six months divided by six. So the way that I do is I would connected to personal capital. And I would just type in okay, I spent. Let's just say I spent Ah, $18,000 in the last six months. 18 divided by six is $3000 by monthly expenses are on average are $3000 a month. Let's say I have 30 grand savings, so and then I would drag that down and I would say,

All right, you have 10 months of savings and pretty simple, very simple. It was like, OK, 10 months. All right. Nice round number. Let's get to 12 months. Okay, now, much moments. Okay. Next barrier. 18 months. Okay.

After 18. 24 after 24 36. Yeah, and you just try toe Extend that because once you get long enough, if there's, like, a direct correlation to your willingness to tell someone to fuck off, if you don't like what they're saying and how many months you have in that number and there's another correlation you be willing to tell someone to fuck off and how much it come. You'll probably have, like it all lined up

perfectly. That is awesome. Well, Sam, thank you so much for joining me on. The podcast is, but alas and ah, man, we touched on so many different topics. But it is every single one in my head. I'm just thinking, Is this this is his gold for an entrepreneur out there that could have been us five years ago outside of the Bay Area, or thinking about starting a company, and, uh, no one would. They're getting into it also hearing a very different type of entrepreneurial story with yours. Then then what is typical here in the Bay Area, where it's, you know, Well,

I hope my story ends up being typical and that it's some huge, But even if it never improved from where it is now. At least I hope people can realize that like you can come from Texas or Missouri and not have connections and still do something interesting

is awesome. Thank you so much for everyday salmon. Hope you have you on again sometimes.

Yeah, hopefully this will be the most popular one.

Yes, Yeah, Go for it. All right. A friends and listeners. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want to hear more of these types of conversations, go over to your favorite podcast, app and hit, Subscribe or leave us a review. Good or bad, we love hearing from people that that appreciate this type of conversation and want more of it. You can also follow us on Twitter at Go Below the line. We'll a see in our Twitter bio our email address for you to shoot us a note on any suggestions of guests or topics that we should cover. We read every single one, so thank you for those that are 40 sent those in. That's it for us today. We will see you next time on below the line below the line is brought to you by straight up podcasts.