friends and listeners. Today's episode, you know, I've said it. I've had some special episodes before, but ah, I mean every time. But I mean it a little bit extra today because today's episode was actually a live recording with good friend, Mentor, former investor of mine and, uh, and a mentor within within Silicon Valley, to to dozens and dozens of of entrepreneurs that that I also just love and respect. His name is Justin Con, and he was episode number one for Below the line, and it comes Full Circle with episode, or part two of that episode with him in front of a live audience in San Francisco.

Recorded last week. Justin is a founder and investor based in San Francisco. He has been building starves for close to 15 years now, and he's seen pretty much everything there is to see the ups and the downs, which gives them a really unique perspective. In addition to that, he's also been a partner at Y Combinator. He's invested in several companies himself, so he's been on both sides of the table, and he's also been on both sides of the journey, the downs and and start ups that have not worked down. And the UPS and the start ups, something like Twitch. It's a cofounder, which was purchased for nearly a $1,000,000,000 by Amazon in 2014 today. Justin is the co founder and CEO of Atrium,

full service corporate law firm that uses modern technology to revive startups all around the world. A legal experience that is fast, transparent, price, predictable. Everything that you want in a legal service that you probably have not gotten in the past with different lawyers or legal service is abused. A dream is a solution for that. It's phenomenally useful. I've used it, a number of founders that have been on the podcast using swear by it as well, and it's a welcome improvement on the legal experience that I've had in my career. So huge Shadow Thio what Justin is currently doing with a trim this conversation, as as I noted as a part two to episode number one for listeners that remember Episode one, which I think is the most downloaded episode of below the line to date, they know that, Ah,

that I'm just delaying the wisdom that Justin can share with everyone that he's learned his career. So for all the people that have left reviews on below one, we really appreciate it, especially for those that have left five star reviews. We read every single one, the good and the bad, and we really appreciate each one. So if you want to take two seconds to leave a review, you don't even have toe, right? Anything out anymore? In the podcasting APS you could just drop in star rating. We really appreciate it. Each app uses those reviews to know what podcast to serve up to people and which ones to feature. So we appreciate every single one of the reviews that our listeners give. So without further ado,

let's get into it with Justine Collins. This is below the line live. But today, I'm really sorry about a different set of questions I'm gonna be asking him about about his journey and the mental side of that during your creation. So that further do please look just e o Theo, and forgive us as we situate the mikes because we've got the mikes here while we're getting set up. I got a question for you all. Is anyone here pro thirst? Okay, a few hands went up for pro thirst. Uh, that means that I must assume that most people in the room or anti thirst And if you're anti thirst, our sponsor liquid death has just the solution for you. It's water in a can. It's a poor father company. Mine will be open about that.

So I'm peddling them pretty hard out of self interest. But I also think it's a great product to murder your thirst. So if you're anti thirst like, may you reach for a liquid death when you want to kill it and when you're trying to take up time. Great. All right, we fix the mikes. All right. You got your, uh, you got my liquid death. All right. It's water. I don't know. How does it taste? It tastes good.

It tastes Get Ah, Peter Pham. Who is? Ah, cofounder or

investor? Basically, Ko phi means he's

out there shilling it all the time is like a friend of mine. And he I think I said that I quit drinking on Twitter and he started. He signed me up for, like, Amazon auto shipment of liquid. That just shows up in my office,

Elia and

you know, I don't know about shipping. I think they the, you know, carbon footprint of shipping cans of water around up by amp ups is like, not super good, But I don't know how to cancel It keeps showing up. So, you know, a paddle. I mean,

it's good water. It's not bad, Not bad. And it is a great it's I think it's It is. My favorite aspect of it is Yeah, I don't really drink either, and being gonna have something to go to went out about, especially with the wind bars here in SF when they do serve it. Having that instead of a bottle of water is, uh is it's the tiniest little thing, but it makes me just order 234 of them. When I'm at a bar with him,

it's really funding the company. I like

it. Yes, exactly. Find helping it from both sides. The, uh, tell me a little bit about, uh, about the quitting drinking. And when you were on the podcast first episode, which is about five and 1/2 6 months ago, you talked a little bit about drinking less. But what was the shift from then? to going thio to kind of, ah, a habit of not drinking altogether.

I think it was in February when we record the first podcast and then I don't think I Why, no, I wasn't. I wasn't quit drinking yet. And then maybe a couple months later, it was about six months ago. Exactly, cause I just hit six months, which is a big deal for me. I think that's the longest I've ever not had a drink since I was 13. It's been really good. I you know, I realized, I guess I'll just go right into the open sharing. But I had kind of used drinking as an escape from the emotions that I didn't want to deal with my entire life. So, you know,

anger, sadness, anxiety. I would. I'm kind of. I'm on any grand type seven personality so that somebody's always chasing new the enthusiasts that someone is chasing new ideas and new experiences. And then I would always think corollary. The flip side of that was running away from, you know, kind of things I didn't want to deal with, and so at it, a lot of different mechanisms for escape, you know. But one of them was was drinking a lot. And so it done that my entire life. And you don't start ups. It's very high stress. Often times, you know, you've experienced that

on when you say drinking a lot. What do you like specifically? What you mean?

Well, it could be, you know, it fluctuate over time, but like probably when I was younger, my early twenties, it starts. I would be getting, you know, black out every other week or something like that. And then by the time I quit this year, I was probably drinking 15 or 20 days a week. But that was just, like three drinks and dinner five days a week, right? And so I wasn't really getting completely blotto unconscious, But I was,

You know, I wake up and maybe just messing my sleep, and I wasn't I wasn't feeling super good. So I finally decided, You know, I wanted to remove those mechanisms of escape from dealing with my with my emotional experience. And I did that. And I know it's been really good, productive and healthy for me so far.

It's ah is awesome. And yeah, kudos for that. The you mention it was six months ago, but I imagine the trek towards even recognizing Oh, man, I'm using this to escape from ocean started way beyond six months ago. If you were to try to pin point win in your life, you even start to recognize things that you were doing that we're in. I guess in certain ways, maladaptive when did you start to become sensitive to even just taking inventory of your life In that way? I think

just really within the past 12 18 months, it hasn't been very long for May and I I spent all this time working on on companies and being worried about, like, what was gonna happen and then, like doing all these behaviors like deal cope with whatever stress is feeling, and then finally get to the point where you start this new company has been successfully think we talked about this last time a little bit, and I was, like, super stressed it out again. So that, to me, was the catalyst for really try to understand why and then diving deeper into you my own experience to see, you know, like, what was it about my own experience and was going on inside of me. That was so much stress for having so many problems dealing with, like, the experience of the outside world.

What are some of the yeah for listeners and for audience in selling twitch and kind of getting this this huge stamp of approval in many ways. Um, obviously having a financial, uh, stamp of the financial runway toe. Do whatever you like in life. I want to come back to you saying that you found yourself back in stressful situation of of your current start of atrium and in a second. But Rick, what are some other maladaptive tendencies beyond just drinking that you have figured out and then introspection? In the last 12 18 months?

It was like a lot. There are a lot. Um, I think what's been helpful for me is to understand where it comes from, right? And s o most of my life, I'd like, basically have been unconsciously reacting and think toe to scar tissue that I had from when I was younger. Right, When you have these formative experiences, you're growing up. People do that. You interact with the world certain ways, and then you form scar tissue based on how the world responds to you and then those are things that you carry into your life as

an adult. Do you have some of those memories of you like? Sure.

So, like, one funny one? Is that like, I really hate talking on the phone? Um, hey, calling people on the phone when I was a kid, my mom made me work. She was, ah, entrepreneur and was a mortgage broken real estate agent. And she would make me help her out of the office. And one of things I had to do was data entry. So I hate, like, doing any sort of forms or paperwork to the point where I'm like regularly,

like, you know, like, I hired someone, actually. Ah, chief of staff, additionally so to talk to my accountants. So I didn't know that I would be like extra layers removed from, like, paperwork. And then the other thing that I had to do was like side to do this data entry on this, like computer inter mortgage forms into the you know, this, like, horrible desktop software that would crash all the time.

And I didn't understand. It was very frustrating to May. And then I'd have to fact put it on, fax it to these random, you know, more like a loan offices. And, um, remember, I hated calling cause I was very shy. As a kid, I'd hate to call like these random off. You know, I was like, whatever 10 years old or something, sort of pick up the phone after college,

man and people and be like, did you get this fax, which I did not understand? Like what? Any content was the purpose of it or anything. And so to this day, like, I just hate getting on the phone. Actually, when I was in high school, and then I think in college, before cell phones were around their pay phones, you know, some of you

might not remember that, but they existed. And, uh,

I would have to take a piss every time I got on a pay phone, like it was like a biologic, like some sort of psychological reaction it like without, like, every time. And I never understood why. And then even like once I got a cell phone. And even today, like, if I have to call a restaurant to say, like I'm running late for a reservation or something. I asked my wife to call like I can't. I can't deal with it. You know I can't get it. So that's an example. Like something that I didn't even realize until recently. I was carrying this behavior from this scar tissue that I had from when I was a kid. And then that's like a funny one. But there's like many worse ones. Do

you mind sharing any

of the ones that absolutely so like, Why do I? You know, I started this company. I got very lucky. I mean, I worked hard on a smart guy, but I got super lucky. We start this company that's about live video streaming was like the dumbest company idea ever, which was to put a camera. My hadn't film myself on the Internet. And then somehow, through a lot of luck and some hard work and a few smart decisions, we turned that into Twitch, which we sold Amazon for nine hours, $70 million. That's like a

far exceeds expectations outcome, right? Um, like, I don't know, I kind of thought you'd take it further. So subjective.

So why would I start another company like I started more cos after that and this most recent come in a dream and lots of friends of mine want starting this new company a dream is a like a law firm for startups to help start ups with their legal needs and people very different from from twitch. And people were like Why would you start back another company at all period? And why start that company? And you know, for me it was I want to start another company because I wanted to like, go further, right? I wanted Thio Might like ego at hadn't been satiated with even this, you know, $1,000,000,000 outcome. And I want to go further and that, you know, that's, like, very poorly adjusted to like what? You know what? I don't need anything. I don't need more money. I don't need Maur.

And did you have that kind of dichotomy in your mind of like

No, I was just unconsciously being like Oh, I should get Maur right cause And that comes from now that I've been thinking about more self aware in this period of time and I realized I came from like interactions that I had with my parents when I was really young, right? Like some. My mom came from Malaysia, where she was an immigrant. She emigrated from Malaysia to United States. That 17 when she grew up, she had nine brothers and sisters in Malaysia roll Malaysia. And they just, like, did not feel like they had enough. They didn't know they were very poor. And so, you know, even as she,

you know, was carved out A very nice middle class life in America. She's a programmer first, and then this morning business, you know, she always feel like she didn't have enough and communicated that, you know, like we would always should always say, like, we're not We don't morning for that or something, like, you know, And whenever I wanted something as a kid, I was always like the default response. And so for me, it's like I just had this starvation mindset my whole career.

I was like, I want more, you know? I want whatever I want. I want more. I got a you know, we haven't building our outcome. A $1,000,000,000 company want a $10 billion company. You know about a G wagon? I want a G wagon with the six wheels.

You know they have a G ragged with six. Well,

yeah, it's like they only sell it in the Middle East. You know, it's like five times as expensive as a normal G wagon. Yeah, so that's that's a very unhealthy mindset. Well, it's a very unhealthy mindset. And

But at the time I felt like you were super switched on and wise 300 years. Even then, did I mean did It was So it's It's interesting that it was that recent that you're like and I was fucking on country unconscious, just operating unconsciously. Everyone's

had a different let you name your different levels of unconscious. You know, I think I've always been somewhat had self awareness moments of self awareness or or areas that I was self aware in, I think a pretty humble person throughout my career. But then you know it's going to those deeper levels I'm understanding. What are my collect core motivators like? Why do I need why do I feel like I need Maur? Why do I feel like I need Thio win the approval of other people you know, even more than I have on all of those things. Go back to like the experience you have when you were younger, and oftentimes you're you're operating as an adult. You don't even know

they exist, right? Yeah. There's two thoughts that I think about, ah, lot about my childhood that that also comes up. Just It manifests in my behavior, sometimes consciously, a lot. A lot of times. It's only after the fact that I realized I was subconsciously operating that way, and one it was being the youngest of five, having 44 older siblings and three older brothers. I just hate authority because when I was 23 and I probably didn't put this together until maybe a year ago that when I was like 456 my parents were great. But having three older older siblings, three brothers just, you know,

that were tyrannical. Authorities over ah, younger brother. I now instinctively um, yet hate authority like it's it's a pretty deep, um, it's a deep distrust of authority. Let's put it this way, and, uh, and I and I only put that together maybe a year ago, and similarly, I think it's ah, I've got a pretty significant fear of abandonment, and I think it also ties to being the youngest of five. You know,

you're only really allowed to hang out very temporarily and on Lee, if you're on your best behavior, if you're bringing something to the table, oftentimes it's quite literally just going to get things for my brothers. I'm sure you have your younger brothers go get things for you and do your bidding at times. But But it's those two things I think for me when I was 2345 You know, I think it's, uh I think it was Freud that said, Your psyche is formed by age sex. That power is a lot of that. A lot of your subconscious behavior down the road to the I empathize with that. It's really only been some types. You know, my thirties that I even thought about this stuff

must be very cathartic to know that

it is very cathartic. I can't tell. I can't tell if it's a compass, anyway, if I'm able to use use it other than just noticing. But I'm okay with just noticing right

now. My film for myself, that's the first step is to notice You know what? That's triggering me, wise wise. That tricking me, asking me that question? Or why did I want this? No. And noticing it. Yeah. Then you can decide what you want to do. You have more opportunity to have agency and not like you're You know, these past scars rule you

what is an example of where you've noticed it. Uh, and what do you What do you mean by you? Noticing it? I think I know what you mean. But do you sense it, like, almost like

a physical in the body, right? Like it's, um you know, this kind of goes into, like, a lot of meditation I've been doing recently, but, you know, being able to be aware of what your human experiences, which includes all your emotional perceptions and kind of the phenomenon emotional phenomenon that you experience, you can identify it more easily once you are aware that you have these triggers and then notice it and experience that feeling of being in that emotion and then decide what you want to dio an example from this week would be, You know, I was I was, you know, tax Day already today. There yesterday,

October 15th. So I had a penny in taxes and there was, like, a mistake. And I'm on the accounts. I have I omitted information accidentally tonight counts. And when I was reviewing it, I noticed it. And my wife was like, You got an email That I was just getting super pissed off was super frustrated. Why, normally, what would have happened in the past? I would have just had an argument. I would been triggered people around me, like my wife would have misinterpreted that as,

like something, you know, that I was angry at her or with her or something like that, and then that could have devolved into argument. But, you know, I was thinking just why my so trigger and I was thinking about, you know, going back to when I was a kid and having to fill out these fucking forms on this stupid ass more software. And then I could know that I could say what I wanna I don't wanna I don't want to do with that information now. I don't want to do with that feeling. Where is that feeling in inside of me? It's I feel in my chest and there's a little nausea and my stomach

about it. And I feel it in my stomach like when I'm sensing some type of just, ah, overarching authority that I'm not necessarily, uh, digging. Then I will just feel it in my

stomach and feeling. And normally, you know, if you're an unconscious about it, you might just feel just be angry and irritable or upset or trigger or one of escape. And you don't think you don't even think about why And then, you know, you're kind of ruled by those past occurrences

now, Well, and and so you're saying that you you have a handful of different maladaptive things that over the years beyond just drinking what are some others that you've started and noticed and become more sensitive Thio in recent

years? Um, yeah, so I mean, there's there's a lot, actually, but, you know, on the escape side, so I escaped. Were really big for me because I was very, uh, yeah, I had a lot of trouble dealing with since you like it struck fear, anxiety about the future and guilt, guilt about the president. Anxiety about the future.

So start up. You know, things go well, things go badly, but you're always gonna experience things. Going badly actually, is not just a start up. It's a huge part of the human experience. Booty said. There was every human being will experience 10,000 joys and 10,000 sorrows in their life. And I really believe that, like, you know, every day you will. Things will go good and they'll go bad. You know,

someone will cut you off in the car and you could be pissed Or, you know, someone does something nice to you and you and you feel joy. And that's like on every time times get like days, months, no years, decades. And when I would experience these sorrows, these pains, I would feel, you know, things that went bad in the startup. I feel guilt about it. Like maybe I should have done something different or I would feel stress about the future. How is gonna turn out because a lot of my ego and my sense of self worth was wrapped up in the company. And then I would kind of be torturing myself incessantly,

mentally right in my head, like, Oh, I didn't do well enough, and I didn't find it just made different decisions I would have done better on and then I would try to like escape from that. So escaping could be like going and getting unconscious by, like drinking of J Mo, which is not Not a good idea, but but it also could be just watching, like a whole season of like breaking bad, right that one weekend or something Or, you know, going on a trip just like completely trying to, like, have a break from your current context and just like go on a vacation just like shut down from your current context. And I think all of those things are various on healthy ways of address of like sitting with your discomfort.

Eso. One of things I try to do now is spent more time. If I feel discomfort, I am guilty. I do feel anxiety like it's priced more time to sit with it and understand what that experience is like.

Yeah, what is I have to ask, like on the counter specifics. What is a way that you'll sit with it? You'll you know, uh, purposefully say OK, I want to just experience us

Well, I think generally have been trying Thio be more comfortable with my discomfort, like across all the different categories of discomfort. And so one of the things I noticed when I took a meditation earlier this year, Yes, I meditate every day for the last 262 days. And, um, I'd like at least roughly about 40 minutes a day about an hour now, and I hated it. At first. I would I would, um, you know, just be trying to do for 20 minutes, and I would look at my phone and be like three minutes had passed up on my phone down. I'm is a meditation timer to track my streak.

And I, um Then I tried to meditate again, and I look at my phone against like, Oh, it's another three minutes, you know? And so I was not. Cable was sitting there. I was someone who's very distracting, bored very easily, kind of like a little a t D f's. You know, when I was the type of kid when I didn't have something to read, I would like read the side of a cereal box, right, like I just did not was not good at sitting with myself.

I have used my phone last December. Like about a year ago, I checked My screen time is like five and half hours a day. So, um, I was just not good at sitting in silence or boredom or like Danny's were, you know, kind of, that Boredom is a form of discomfort, I think. And so I noticed as I as I meditated more and more, I was able to move. I stopped checking. My phone was able to kind of sit there, and they experience whatever waas there's boredom or just physical pain in my legs crossed or whatever. And so that was,

like, really good practice to help train my comfort level. Had sitting in these kind of uncomfortable situations and then really going to that step of being mindful about what is this experience like? So what's the feeling of it? If I have a difficult, you know, I have to have a difficult conversation with someone or have guilt about something that happened. What's it like to sit with it and what? Where is that if you show up in the body, is in the chest and stomach in my head? Before had my temples angry, and that's that's it, you know. And then I try to doom or exposure to things that are uncomfortable. You know, like,

start walking on barefoot. Non San Francisco San Francisco. You know, you catch something, but, um, I just ranch up in Sonoma, walking around a couple miles. You know what a hike Barefoot, Just like, you know, it's a sprint, Rocky, actually, since been painful. But just, like experience that discomfort and be okay with it.

Yeah, the, um the church that that my wife and I attend here in San Francisco called Reality The Sermon this past weekend. Pastor gave the sermon on on just a disagreement, but it's just zap, clickable to discomfort of his point was, which kind of it was really thought provoking form. It was saying that everything went in. Our life is so easy to curate. You know, our Facebook feeds what music we want to listen to get around commercials. What show you wanna watch directly on Netflix? It's so easy to curate everything that is becoming harder and harder to sit with discomfort because there is literally an app to take away your discomfort. Hate commercials get Netflix eight. Silence, Listen to Spotify. Hey,

boredom. You know, Cruz instagram it. It's so easy. And those and those could be great. Great tools, um, for the very things that they're they're built for But they also yeah, can be maladaptive and certainly to his point was just were so unaccustomed to sitting with discomfort because we just never have to do it or disagreement. And it's it's a really good, um just tangentially just sitting with disagreement as discomfort, disagreeing with someone and then being able to just sit and hold a great dinner with the mini hell, that's really fucking hard in in 2019 where each little disagreement is kind of this potential seed of ideological difference as a trigger warning, right? Exactly. Yeah,

it's Ah, it's, um it was really interesting. I think that and that discomfort you, you and I, we got Thio. Take a meditation class at Novel's place really is here. And it was great to have an hour, um, of under an uninterrupted time. But also I've adopted there was something that we were out there that I really, really enjoyed, which just sit comfortably and let your mind wander. Let it go wherever it wants. And if you want to lay down, lay down.

If you want to move, move. And, um, I still have my my typical meditation, uh, cadence each morning. But I have found myself building out time where I'm just, like all right, just think. Just sit there with nothing to do but just think as kind of a relief valve for these undercurrents that are that are happening whether it's, um whether it's a fear, whether it's in a anxiety, I'm also any Graham seven. So I'm very for forward looking, very future oriented.

Very anxious, because I'm constantly creating this future that doesn't map up to reality. And now I have to fix it and fix it and fix it. Um, yeah, it's sitting with that. Discomfort is it's a muscle to build for sure. Um, what we're gonna say Definitely that degree. Um well, on the anagram seven. When did you When did you come? Uh, when did you become familiar with any grams and just kind of that introspection of Of what number you were. And what does that mean to you?

Well, I would say that the number is not I mean exercise of doing any. Graham was like, It wasn't that big of a revelation to me. I mean, I kind of knew my personality traits already. I think the bigger thing for me was just beam or aware of connecting that stuff back to my past like we were talking about and really realizing that I could make a conscious choice of, like, how I want it. I wanted what I want to do. Moving forward. That was probably the part that was, like, really missing before, you know, I think I took the test like a couple this morning this year or something like that. Well, that I already like, knew most

of the things. What there's Ah, there's Ah, um, episode with Diana Chapman earlier in the podcast, where phenomenal Executive Yoshida, Amazing on cheek goes through every every and any grand personality type. It's really, uh, it's a great breakdown. Um, the guy was helpful for me to figure out my number of seven as well. Um, So when I ask you, I want to ask you that a typical cocktail talk question that founders get, um, and you can every founder can answer in a 1,000,000 different ways and feel free answered however you want.

But the question that you probably get a lot, um, is your house atrium going because you just get asked, How's your started going? Um, how is a trim going? It's

going like every startup. It's going, you know, there's good and there's bad, right? There's things that e r going well, there's things that need to go better. And I think for me, the more interesting part of that question is just like how my you know, dealing with that right? Like how? My Because I think you confined like any start was gonna have things that are like going well if things were going bad and people are just gonna focus on, like, what's going Well, um, I think that for me, my main focus is figure out how to write,

like, spend my time in my zone a genius and create a organizational structure that supports that from, you know, the Zona genius concept is really one of the things that I'm. You're good at that. Give me energy. Um, that the company needs most ceos that I know end up in their zone of competence or the zone. I think they called Zone of Excellence, actually, which is like the things we're good at, but don't give them energy and then they turn. They kind of create a job that they hate doing. And so I think having the self awareness of what I actually like doing that gives me energy that the company needs, even doing that exercise. That's not a question that people ask themselves very often.

And so even asked myself. That question could only identify, Be aware of like what I actually want to do. And then how do I find people who have who can, whose personalities match mine or the complimentary to mind so that they want to do the things that maybe I'm not as good or don't give me energy and so really focused on building that kind of structure into my executive team up? And I think I've done a pretty good job of that in the last six months. So a CEO who's really amazing and we worked really well together, I don't know Joanna Rush of like, Oh, she's like, just incredible because and not only she incredible as an operator, but we work together really well. I like the things that maybe I want to spend time on my culture and coaching and like what kind of company we're rebuilding, complemented by the things that she's really accident in and get energy from, like, kind of like that daily operations and operational acts one's side

with what are your zones of genius?

I think it's things that involve getting people excited. That's number one. So you know, there's a lot of activation energy required to start a startup or any sort of project. And I'm someone who's like pretty good at getting people excited about the upside of whatever project that is, so that could be recruiting. It could be fun raising, obviously. First, our money in the context of a startup. That's 11 thing I really care about the culture of the company. It's many time thinking about what kind of company do I want to work at and what kind of company do what kind of people who don't want to work with and so really focused on answering those questions For the company on those were probably the two main

things. What are some of the things that were in your zone of Excellency. You just had to push up to the side or zona competence. And I was really

hated doing so. I used to think, I mean, I don't think I ever liked. I think some founders think they're like excellent operators, and most or not, but they don't know it. But I never thought I was like that. Excellent operator, I think. But I do think I thought I was really good at reviewing people's work and like being giving people feedback on a tactical feedback, a strategic feedback. But actually, it's something you know. One of the things Diana says in the 15 comments 15 minutes of conscious leadership is you know, there's this shift move, like asking how is the opposite of what I believe?

True. And that's something. It's a good exercise because, um, it exposes you, forces you to think about you know, the alternatives to your your deeply held notions. Right? Or Peter Cardigan, right? Says it does the sex eyes that has been on the guest on your podcast.

Yeah. Shout out to Peter. Yeah, Executive Coach, I think is in the audience right now, too. Yeah. And visa. Yeah.

Phenomenal. executive coach, and this is my therapist, and he always does

a k A therapist to the terms are interchangeable.

I totally use them both. Does this exercise? That's, um you know, was your percent responsible 100% responsible. So in this situation, you know, if there's a conflict, how my 0% responsible cannot tell retell it is how my 100% responsible. And, um So I had this story kind of getting back to the point of the story of, like, that I'm really good at, you know, kind of doing these, like business reviews and, um uh,

kind of stuff like bad giving people strategic feedback. And then, you know, I actually was out for one of them. I think was sick, O r. I was on a trip or something. And then Joanna did all of them, and everyone liked it a lot better on. I think they got a lot more out of it,

so I kind

of have to challenge that assumption of mine. I asked myself how much Maybe I'm not as good as I think. Or maybe this is not in my eyes owner genius. And so now you know, I ve that's another set of things that I kind of delegated. So that would be one example.

And does, uh, are there stages in which this becomes more practical, are useful for for listeners and a lot of founders and creators out there with maybe three person startup or they're just getting going with a side business Wind can. When do you think a little and start thinking through? All right, I'm ready for zones of genius, or when is it kind of like, All right, I'm the janitor to want me to

do everything. Well, I think knowledge and action are independent. Right? So a lot of people would say, Oh, well, I have a three person company, so I can't make those choices. Well, how do you know if you don't have the knowledge of what you actually what is in your zone? A genius and what's not yours? Energies, right. How do you know that? You can't make that choice. You don't.

So you should do the exercise first. But it could be the case in your three person startup that your things Aaron, yours under genius that need to be done, are perfectly aligned with, like, whatever But you know you're in there. Two other co founders of was a genius. Obviously, Onley working in things that are, you know, give you energy and that you like to d'oh and you're good at is maybe a platonic ideal. And it's kind of like an impossible task for anyone, even someone who is the CEO of, like, a 10,000% company. Um, but I think it's worth doing that exercise and trying to move yourself and the amount of work that you're doing or the type of work you're doing towards that center genius. Because there's always almost certainly things you can do today to move yourself towards that ideal,

right? It's a good, good articulation of moving towards it and in articulation that it might be the ideal. That's never, never quite possible. But at least directionally is potentially far more powerful for the business. I get it easily seem and my own experience. Yeah, there were things I thought I was gonna I was terrible at once. You see world class, you like. Okay, that's what really good. Looks like the, um it within that within that realm was when you were telling the team this like all right, these are things that I want to focus on. These things I don't want to focus on.

Was it super straightforward? Was it kind of a nerve ing for some of the executives around you was Did it require Did it feel like it required courage from you? Toe say, these are things that I'm gonna focus on these other things. I'm not going to

No, no, that it felt like a required courage. But I do think he was unnerve ing for people because that set of things that I want to focus on is only is, you know, like, somewhat correlated with, like, what CEO supposed to do, right? There's other things that normally people might think of The CEO should do so when it was like for some of those things, they were like, always he for real. Or are we sure? Maybe you want to, like, take them back or he actually secretly want the micro manage.

Those things, you know but not say is responsible for them. But I think that, um, you know, So you have to prove that this is like you mean when you say by constantly reinforcing that message. You know, this person, this executives actually in charge of this like we said we outlined and you know, he's gonna make the final decision and, you know, say that week over week until people actually understand that and internalize it

zooming in, zooming out, Um, something that that I never asked in the first episode. And a friend afterwards, uh, told me that he wished that I had asked is, um out of all of the businesses and 15 years of starting things. Um what what was the most the most challenging time? Uh, either most challenging day afternoon, uh, week or or meal full on season of a few months or

years. Yeah. The most challenging time was definitely in 2039. This business is called exactly like a kind of task rabbit. But then we pivoted thio, um, be like a housecleaning service, like on the matter. Like a book online housecleaning service, which is not really a tech start up, to be honest, but we had a website, so yeah, um, so this this company was not going super Well, um, and the whole year and 2013 I was beating myself up over it.

I had hyped it up so much, I'm like a really good storyteller. And so I had hyped it up a lot and we'd ways, You know, what seemed like a lot of money to me at the time was in that much money three and 1/2 $1,000,000 worth $3.7 million and, um, and settle these expectations for myself with my team with the investors. And then we just like we're not delivering. And I just carry that all on my shoulders. And I was torturing myself all the time. I got what I didn't want to get out of bed. Um, and I just didn't feel kind of sick every morning. And so start seeing a therapist and, you know, just trying to work through my issues around.

No, start up. I mean, it wasn't like a because the low point was like one of my engineers, whether we had, like, a steady attrition of people leaving at the end, because everyone, you know could kind of see the writing on the wall and someone who I really liked. What? That was one of our like, best engineers left, and I just I got super hammered, like, really pissed. Um, do not take things. It was not dealing with dealing with the emotion Super Wall a day.

And yeah, I can empathize. I remember when, uh, what was going through a really tough the last 18 months or just super tough and great people were leaving. It's just, uh, and it was just It's kind of like and Peter knows, because it is my coach through it all, like I just couldn't look att at my email anymore. Uhm hated looking at my email, and it's like it's like, you know, there's the rats in a lab that if they get I zapped randomly thin, they're freaked out the entire time. You know, if they get zapped because they touch touch of pedal,

then they're totally fine. Let go, Don't touch the pedal. But if they get zapped randomly, then they're just freaked out at all times that anything's gonna zap them and and get super fucked up, right? Yeah, yeah, they fucking take down to fit the J mo. But that's ah. Yet it's the, um that's what it was like. I think when I look back on it, there was maybe only ah, handful of actual moments that were super harsher or really that felt like I was getting absolutely zapped. But it was because they would come so randomly had no idea when they were gonna when they were gonna come in it.

And it really, uh, it really messed with my my psychology throughout the day, even though maybe it was like every two weeks, something really major at which I mean, verbalizing it. It's that's pretty often, but, um, but, man, it was Ah, the hardest part was looking back, it was once a month, something really out of left field would would rock us and rock me is a CEO. But when I look back, it was like every moment of every day, it was like, When is that?

And you're, like, constantly on high alert, right? Con going around with your phone in your pocket. You're like, constantly, you know, you gonna zap once

in a while Exactly. Just checking email towards her device. Right? Right. Speaking of devices, um, you you you take it on a regimen of kind of just clearing out a lot of noise in your life with devices you mentioned that a little bit on the first podcast. Do you mind telling, um, listeners in the audience here, Just the things that you did back then and then I want the follow up is Have you figured out any other things that have just helped you de clutter the noise in your life?

Yes. I mean, I guess this relates kind of that story, you know? I know the exact was, like, super depressing. I thought of another moment where it's like, you know, obviously I had this really bad night where, like, someone quit. But then I was like, some couple months later, I was randomly broke down. I remember was in a bar with one of my co founders, and I just broke down sobbing to him.

I was just, like, Could not be. I couldn't deal with his random negatives that were happening and eyes the first time I broke down like that, like, probably, you know, before since then, like before or since, like, around work. And, um, I realized, like, now,

you know, today I didn't have the tools to deal with my experience, right? Like you had this experience. Parts of it were negative. parts of it were very positive but didn't have the tools to deal with the negatives. And so a lot of like what I've been doing for myself today is trying to give myself the tools to deal with the human experience involves, like, these stars they can experience, you know, that are gonna come across and they're gonna happen to you every once in a while. And so, you know, one of the things is just trying to beam or president my experience and in order to, you know, I realized my phone was a big distraction.

I was looking at five and 1/2 hours a day. Like I said, this is in December and five hours a day, seven days a week. It's 37.5 hours, right? So it's like a full time job. Just shot, just shot. You don't have health insurance, but, you know,

it's like, uh, okay, it's a gig

job. It's a gig. That's a full time gig job. Um, and I was like, shocked. You know, that's that's a lot. And so I deleted all the ops off my phone, all the entertainment. Was it really a YouTube and twitch? and, ah, deleted email and slack, and I deleted. Uh, what's the Welsh?

All the shopping APS and abroad the browser. So I couldn't like back door and go on Twitter. I delete Twitter, all social media, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. And I locked my phone and I I made us. I couldn't install any APS, and then I turned it black and white, which is less addictive. You know, my phone's been on Black away for 10 months without any of these abs, and I realized, like that's just like a lot more president. My experience, I was I was in compelled all the time. I'm tryingto removal compulsive behavior for my life. So pulling on your phone and looking at it's couples of behavior. And so I wanted to remove that and that, and that kind of worked out maybe more present experience.

Well, there are other things in the last six months that have been added to that list of things that now that you are kind of go to

keep the list of vases list, I have on lines feeling good. This list of things that practice I've been doing really ramped up the negative visualization art. So I think I'm gonna mention that last time. But I've been doing this exercise where? Think about my impending

death. Yeah. You wrote about that on Twitter? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Maybe not impending, but like your future, Well, it is impending. I guess certain times get would do you mind diving into that? What? One? Just given the primer on negative visualization and then going to Yeah, that stuff that you were writing about?

Yes, A negative visualization is this is when you visualize something that bad, that's gonna happen and kind of like, put yourself in that experience and then, you know, for me, you know, it might be like, how will I die Or like, what would happen if I got cancer and, uh, was terminal cancer and try to like, Imagine what that experience would be like. And then you kind of wanna wake up. In reality, I think back in the world, it could be two things.

One is very deep gratitude for my current state of existence. And the second is on by Mike being thankful for it. And then I think the second is like it kind of dampens like negative experiences that happen? Is it re contextualized in this like, well, there could be like it could be way worse right now. It's person quit. I don't have cancer. Um um And so one of the things I read this book or recently which I really like all the five invitations by Frank Kosinski who, uh, he started a Zen hospice project in San Francisco and was a meditator. And, uh, he sat with dying people and the things he learned from the dying. And I was reading the book. I was very moved by and one of things was the first invitation.

Don't wait. And so when I was doing my visualization, I was like, Who would I want to see when I'm on my deathbed? And what would I say to them? And then I was inspired. Just write it out, like, right out All the things I would say that all the people I would want to see and then just go. And so I was like, I should tell these people now why why would I wait? And so I started doing that bit cathartic experience.

For me, that's great. Is five in invitations,

the other five invitations us this beautiful book. Okay, I

want to go to some of the questions that we got on on Twitter for today's episode. Um, and the 1st 1 was we touched on zones of genius, which is great, cause people someone wanted to ask about that, um also touched on the six months of no drinking. Um, one of the questions that we haven't touched on is you recently tweeted about whether you're approached a non attachment was the effect of financial success or whether you would have been even more successful with that mindset early on, as you thought about it, what conclusion did you come to? So I think this question is referring. Thio you have adopted a pretty pretty strong philosophy of non attachment and not becoming attached to the things that you're building with atrium or or, uh, likely into your personal life as well. Um, do you think that is just in effect of being in this issue so incredibly fortunate financial situation that you find yourself in now or do you think this is something that would have actually potentially, um, helped you achieve of and Maur and in previous years, in life,

sure. So you know, the non attachment is really a Buddhist idea, right? From 2500 years ago, which is that suffering is caused by cravings That you have the attachments? Yeah, the things you want right where the of things reverse two. And I found that very true when I read that, you know, I found it to be very true. In my own experience, I will experience pain, painful things, right? Someone leaving the company or something. But what really makes me torture myself is like,

Oh, I really need them to stay out of my company's gonna fail with this. You know, I really love this person. So, like them leaving is a personal attack. Abilities like stories that I wrap the actual event around. So you don't really tryingto work on the cessation of of craving in my life. It's in perfect. I don't think I'm nearly there at all right now. Very, very much on the first step. Um, but I do think that look on argument, a question, a conversation I've left a lot of friends or other other people is they say,

like, would you be as successful if you had not been as attached outcomes earlier in your career. And my answer is actually, I think so. But I don't know. It's very hard to prove the counterfactual, but I think so. And the reason I think so is very direct example, which is, like, when I was starting these companies early on, I would always I think the grass is gonna be greener on the other side and want to do something else. And so, um, that caused you very directly May when we, you know,

after we pivoted, which was growing pretty well, I was like, I should go start another company as I could build something even better, you know, as twitches. Really, Emmett, my co founders idea internally at our Justin TV start up, and he was really running with it. So I was like, I should just, you know, I was like, I need to do something bigger and more important, whatever side this craving.

Right. And then I went. And so this new company exactly did not work super well and what I probably should have done was, like, stuck around twitch and helped him it with things. Certain things that I was really good at raising money and who knows what would have happened. But, you know, I mean, twitch today is a pretty big company of the other, you know, outlets and stuff inside. It's worth $10 billion of $15 billion. I don't know what the truth is.

20 I've seen 25 but, uh, but the, uh but yes, it's I think it's a good That's almost is strangely quantifiable. Right example. You

know, you never know what would have happened,

but I'm very nobody. I mean, it's almost, like, quantifiable in terms of like, you could you could zoom Adam and pretty within 30 seconds have kind of imagine,

really think about it kind of thing that I think the point is that when you are, you are not letting your attachment out, like my attachment to like having a big company, right? I really wanted to happen. I was craving to have a big company on git was like making me make decisions unconsciously, when I know I have that when I'm not attached, the outcomes I can like say OK, what is what I want to do from or rational expected to make a decision that space you know, not based on these compulsions. I think that's really important.

Do you? When you voice these kind of philosophical musings on line do you get flak for it online? Do you get even Just friends that are like, Dude, you're way out there. I think that, like ribbing you just over over water.

Yes. I think there's some people who are like Is this guy for real? Some Silicon Valley? The TV show Shit right here. You know, like I'm talking about Buddhism or whatever on my my twitter, the reason I talk about this stuff on Twitter is really it's I learned by E Think if you want to learn something, you should teach it on DSO for me as I'm discovering stuff in order to internalize it and make it part of my identity. I would like to talk about it, you know, evangelist personality. And so Twitter is like a great place for me. Don't like kind of right up in a succinct way. Some of the things I've learned and then share them out in the world. And, you know, people like them,

it z it's an offering, right? People like it great. They don't like it. That's okay, too. It's free. And so, um, I think some people are, like, skeptical there, you know, even friends of mine were like, Is he for real? I don't know.

Although now, you know, I've been kind of doing it for a while, So maybe they I think they've come around. And then I think some people are, um you know, there's this trend in society today where people are not able to dis aggregate the person stating the argument or like idea from the person from the idea. Right? So if they think the person and the idea in Congress than they if they're Incan, granted they're like, This is this doesn't visible shit, right? So there's some people were like, He's like a tech guy. How can he be into mindfulness meditation? Right?

He like, created this app. That's like, you know, people used the tons of people use. It's obviously an entertainment assets. It's a form of distraction or unconsciousness in away. How could he know? That's hypocritical to say like, Oh, now you're like into you. You deleted all the afternoon of meditation wherever, and that's like a logical fallacy. Of course, like people understand logics of their own. I don't get it. But, um, you know, ideas are independent of the person speaking them

had evidence of a zit in there taking a toll on anyway.

So I mean, people like, there's a lot of like haters, right? So there's a lot of times people like, um, BBB up in my mentions, sipping on hate a raid. But I like to follow them all. You know, I follow. I like to fall, learn about them and follow them. And it's like it's like a digital met of meditation. Metas probably work for loving kindness of meditation practice and people do in Buddhist traditions. We should hold people around you right in this with this feeling of a loving kindness and compassion. And I'm like,

You know, how can I instead of getting triggered, you know, that's my first his think right by Mikulas firing. And I'm like, Oh, fighter flight. I should argue with this person. I tried to think like what is? What's his experience of reading my comments? And what does he think? Okay, why would you think that? And like, can I see this person as a human being who maybe is, You know,

a lot. Not not super logical, but, like, hasn't right to say these hate on me. And can I, um, and I followed them and be reminded of that every time I look at Twitter.

Yeah, that's at his deep.

All right, thanks. It's I think that is. Could be on silicon episode of Silicon Valley.

Well, hey, they they did the research. All right, Next question. On speaking of Twitter, um, says this is a very tactical question. Uh, but within now I'm gonna skip that. That's super tactical. Uh, it's a very heavy SAS question. Little to tactical invest, sort of sass company. Yeah, the question.

And because of time, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you. Ah, these last two questions. Um, just how can CEOs talk about their stress and burnout without scaring away customers and investors?

Well, I mean, you could talk about the ones you experience in the past. I think that's always easier. Right? So, talking about the stuff you've experienced more for foreign, I mean, you probably don't want to be out there saying like, I'm really stressed. We're running. We have two weeks of cash left customers are like that. I don't want to make that your problem. My problem. Um, so I do think that there's kind of a fiduciary responsibility to your company to probably be discreet about material things, but I think that,

like, I don't think people hold it against you to say you experience stress. Unfortunately, stress is part of the landscape of like the modern business world of professional world. In fact, a lot of people wear like a badge of honor that I go. I'm so stressed. I have like, I must be important. Um, and so I think you can talk about your expensive stress and that's not abnormal, right? That is something that everyone experiences. And then you could talk about how you're dealing with that. And I think if you're dealing with in a healthy way, people actually admire that.

I you know, lots of people apply toe work atrium because of the things I say online and that, you know, I think they see this person maybe have a different attitude than some of the other started people that I have may have applied at her work for, and that sounds like a better place of work because of it. And that might be true that probably aspects that are. Maybe there's something that could be improved, but, like I think it in a way, it's an advertisement. That's a flag for the type of people that I want to work with. And so I do think that, you know, it could be to your advantage if you're if you're honest

and I know uh, add that it's it's also, it seems, in my experience, I got super burned down and had no idea. In fact, I remember 12 months prior to me being extremely burned out after the acquisition with Airbnb I 12 months before that, I would so stupidly Saturn. I don't think burnout is a thing. So stupidly say that that Burnett is mind over matter and their stressful times in life. But you can have mind over matter. It wasn't until two months after the acquisition with their baby. I was I was taking an hour and 1/2 nap every afternoon at every Andy's office and I was like, Oh, no, this is normal work hard, lovely.

I love naps and I'm here really late, so it's a great way to, like, fit in extra productivity. After two months on the third month, it was like, Okay, this is I don't really need the nap in the fourth month. Didn't need the nap it all. And I remember looking back was like, Holy shit, I, like, needed 90 minutes of sleep five hours into my day because I was so burnt out, I was so exhausted, Could be could barely sleep.

And, uh, it wasn't until after the fact that I was like, Oh, shit, that was insane. Burnout not being able to sleep and then having to sleep in the middle of the day and so obvious in retrospect, but at the time, like I literally was, like a pronounced on things. So I think this question for, um believe Todd asked this on Twitter. Um,

let me. Actually, just one more thing about one more thing about the previous question, which is, like, How can you talk about this stuff online? Um, stress and burnout. I think that it's, you know, it's having this conversation with another friend of mine who's very close to mentor him with his start up. There is a lot of money. $100 million and we're talking about candor. Actually this morning and he was saying like, Well, there's sometimes it's, you know,

are you always You always need to be candid or, you know, it seems like sometimes it's just like better for the company. Like if you're not a candidate He was really talking about idea. Yet been discussing with his coach because I think, you know, is somebody's scared of having some of these conversations and his coaches like, you know it already. Where are you, man? He was trying to come up with examples of, like White. You know where it wouldn't make sense. We can't it at a certain point. Coach was just like you. You know,

uh, well, sometimes, like maybe it's more important. You have to decide whether it's more important to be candid, and it is have a successful company. The most successful company, right? And I think something we don't pay attention to is that our principles are things that we won't compromise even to be successful. And most people don't think about the principles they say, Well, we have company values, and these are values that help us be successful company. These are values that help us be successful. They help us, obviously,

marketing, helping women and costs, but really values and principles more than one values are things that you have, even when they hurt you from being successful. And I don't think I know for myself. I never thought about principles like, What are my principles? What are the things that I will like not compromise, even if it hurts my business? And so maybe, you know, being authentic about my experience and being conscious about my experience. I think that is a principle that I will not compromise that, even if it wasn't the best thing for for the business, because that's that's who I am. It's

my character. That's yeah, that's powerful. The yeah, in stress mitigation. There's meditation. It's it's great being honest. It's also such a great stress stress mitigation tactic. It's It's one of the best. The last question halfway is the tech ecosystem that you've been a part of for the last 15 years and have helped build in many ways and as a founder, well known founder and investor as, uh, as a creator here in Silicon Valley and a thought leader within within the Tech. Rome What are some of the things in the tech ego system that really helpful? And do you think there any things in the techies ecosystem that are pretty harmful towards towards invasion progress, healthy progress and innovation? Um, well, I guess the helpful side.

I think there is an added two year of people being excited about innovation and new ideas, and that's always been here. And I think we take it a little bit for granted, actually. But you know what other place in the world that doesn't exist as much. And so I think that's very positive. You know, I've met with Yes, sir, I met with a founder who is like building a longevity company. She's 25 years old, like building this like company. That's goal is Thio create a therapeutic approach. She extending human life span on like That's pretty amazing, right? That's a That's a very interesting innovation, um,

that she's working on, and it's totally flyer idea, right? But who knows what's gonna happen? But there's someone here who is like raising money, and I'm gonna actually start this company that do something very novel, and there's, you know, thousands of those people. I think that's pretty. That's pretty unique here about Silicon Valley on I think people, you know, people have said it before, but I think people take take it for granted. Now you know what kind of make fun way have Silicon Valley a TV show and, like kind of people make fun of and like,

the zeitgeist has turned a little bit against startups, and so we kind of ignore some of those good things that come with with the fact there's a lot of interest in creating innovative entrepreneurial endeavors. Be bad is probably, I think, there is, ah, corporatization of the tech industry that's happening that like a super big level, right? Like, you know, the fan Cos where there, there, you know, kind of just they have such a big cash, cash and buying up talent and, you know,

kind of working. Maybe that's not the best use of all these people's time working on like very trivial things, right? I was reading this hacker news article last night about uber laid off a couple 100 people, and one of the comments on McAdoo's outlined all these, you know, redundant open source projects that engineers had worked on an uber that were like Now, like, you know, they were. They were shut down, right? And I think these big companies were getting like they have so much resources that their most the actual head count growth in Silicon Valley's for these large corporation technology corporations in there, not super efficient, allocating resources on innovation. You know,

it's just really on the machine to make money and, like, really messed up, you know, the core goal. I think maybe an unconscious goal is to monopolize talent here. That's I think that's probably bad for innovation.

Yeah, as, uh, it's Yeah, it's not frequently spoken about. Oh, well, it's awesome. Okay, we're we're gonna turn the tables real real quick for a few minutes to talk about lightning round this ah, little book that everybody's gonna get a copy of here. Um, and, uh, and folks that are listening online can go beyond coffee book dot com and inside it for a book that I wrote last year but publishing it this year and is a fun undertaking in a completely strange world. It has nothing to do with startups, but I wrote a book on new tropics Adapted Jin's and mushrooms,

um, called beyond coffee that I'm really excited about. Come out in November and, uh, just angry to ask if you don't want elections back.

I want to learn about this book. So what like, first of all, for someone who doesn't know what our new tropics adapted, Jin's And I mean, I know what mushrooms are, but for

the first time in the tropics and adapted just in case Yeah, yeah, the new tropics, New tropics. Nooooo, tropics. They're kind of interchangeable pronunciation, but it is they are compounds that will improve cognition in any form. So many people think that they're complete B s. But we actually have, like, three decades of research that you can take something like Baco, pulmonary and herb that will improve your memory by, uh, up to 25%. Um, we actually have a lot of research that shows coffees is really destructive for your adrenal gland,

sir, it spikes your cortisol. Um, a cup of coffee will have the same physiological impact on your body is if you're swerving to avoid a accident on the highway. It's that type of acute stress that hits your body s Oh yeah, New tropics are cognitive enhancing compounds that could do everything from help you with faster ah, verbal recall or it could be a better memory. But there there's about 46 compounds that we researched me into. Co authors research for the book to talk about, what's what's real and what's not with them and what are adapted. Jin's adapted Jin's Air de stressing Compounds so Adaptive Jin's be something like Ash Lagonda, which is 3000 years old. That de stresses you, I'd say the number one insight of the book that I that I took away in writing it I actually kind of piece it together was Productivity is way more than just energy and wakefulness, and we drink coffee. We drink a lot of coffee as Americans for wakefulness,

but everyone knows one extra cup and what you need in your jittery or excitable and you're not productive. And one of the insights in the research was that productivity's is both. It's both energy cognition. It's all three energy, cognition and direction. So energy. Obviously that's, you know wakefulness, alertness. Cognition is just your motor speed. How quickly you're able, Thio recall something or reaction speed for questions that air coming aware thoughts that are being tossed up in a company brainstorm the last one's direction. De stressing agents like and I know this sounds so we woo for for, like, a software focus started founder to talk about. But,

um, I'd say out of the entire book Thies this cot, this category of compounds adapted gents are so phenomenally powerful for productivity because they de stress you. And in a world where we're all just so, uh, at a in a heightened state of alert at all times for for stress for a 1,000,000 notifications on your phone um, you can take two different herbs Ash, Lagonda and Rodeo Ola and you will be far more productive your day because you're gonna be a lot less anxious, A lot less stress. And so that was kind of the inside of the entire book. Buried into that category of adapted Jin's was productivity is more than just wakefulness, but it's, ah, energy, cognition

and direction. So why haven't these things taken off right? You called it beyond coffee because people love coffee, right? But they don't love adapted Jin's yet. Yeah, but like, Why don't why are why are there like adapted

to the shop, Will you? Tropic shops? My hope is that that's right. Now when you're kind of like as an audience member, when you like kind of mentally checking out, you're like, OK, that was great stuff from just my hope is five years from now, this stuff is a ubiquitous and it does take off because it goes from being this fringe thing to being adopted in a much more mass kind of mainstream way. I think it's starting Thio. Coffee is one hell of a thing to try to compete with, because it is so invective is very addictive, and it's very, very American. But, um,

but I think the reason they haven't taken office, they just haven't been as understood. And they're not as immediately gratifying as a stimulative of coffee is. So 200 years ago, you give someone a cup of coffee, Boon. They're like, Holy shit, I want more of this, um, something like Ashley gone or an adaptive Jin really takes, like six or seven days for it to start to build. And so that's. That's one of the major reasons

that's a lot. I mean, put someone on a course of things. You're gonna see benefits in six or seven days. Most people, they don't have the attention span that. So how do you What is the path to people? Adopting adapted Jin's.

It's through the scientific understanding of just how beneficial they could be for your bio physiology. So the book has over 240 scientific studies cited on these things, and you can kind of put in all three of these new tropics adapted Jin's and Mushrooms into three buckets, bucket of kind of total hype. And there's no real science behind it. Bucket of there's real substance there, but it's actually there's some really dangerous side effects from from a handful of these. And then there's this third bucket that's right at the right, at the nexus of efficacy and safety. Really effective and really safe. And that's kind of the third bucket. That one gets overshadowed by the 1st 2 but but two. I think it's just when it's all said and done, these compounds is really started to be studied in the last 30 years and more so in the last 10. Um, it probably took coffee according toe like that, The anecdotes and in some of the history see of it, took coffee 40 50 60 years before he was adopted mainstream. These things will probably take half that time, but but I think it's just the science. And it's not nearly as as gratifying immediately as as as coffee is,

how did you get into writing this book

so six years ago? Went to the E. R with, ah, rapid heart rate and didn't know what was going on. I thought it was just stress and went through a litany of different tests, and my doctor is asking me about my habits. And I told him I was drinking 56 cups of coffee a day, and it's probably drinking more on that. To be honest, like I would have my first cup of coffee in the morning would be a venti Starbucks. And there's some till team members here that would probably remember this, and I would drink a venti Starbucks with two extra shots. It's called a black eye. It's like a known order that you could just be like, Hey, give me a black eye and it that's five cups of coffee and one and then I'd have probably,

too, on top that and, um and I just kept seeing all these like, little Pops I articles come out that it's like coffee is good for you. Coffee's great for you, probably all funded by Starbucks. Now that I look back and actually now rigorously looking at these studies, I'm like, Oh, my God, this is like a sample size of five people. So long story short is in the doctor's office And then he was so, matter of fact, he was like, Yeah, it's That's ah,

he kind of nodded his head E Any apparently confirmed something he was thinking when I told her how much coffee was having is like, Yeah, you, uh, you have what's what's called atrial fib Relation. And it's, Ah, irregular, irregular heartbeat. Um, we need to go to the e R. Uh, and he's like, so calm. But he's like we need a go to the e. R next door and have my my heart,

cardio, overdid, meaning like the thing and and movies where they have the two metal paddles and they shock your heart back into regular rhythm is pretty pretty gnarly butt out of that entire day. The only thing that I actually really remember, uh, like sticking in my mind almost obsessively was like, Okay, it's not terminal, so that's good. I don't have the cardio vert my heart. I'll be back to normal. But he said to me is like, um, you know, you really could only drink one cup of coffee as like there's no fucking way I can get through the day off on one cup of coffee, I was severely addicted,

and, um and I was like, I'm running a company with 50 plus employees. There's nowhere and get through one you know, through the day with one cup of coffee. And and so he said to me, this one, little off and coming that stuck with me, said, Have you ever tried green tea has this stuff in it called El Thinning, which helped calm me down. It has less caffeine, and it'll help extend effects of the caffeine longer than a cup of coffee. So I was like, Oh, this weird compound L.

Feeny will help extend the effects of caffeine. And so that little thought got launching my brain and then probably 18 months later, I I just research gone down the rabbit hole of everything else that I could add to my I'm one cup of morning coffee to make it last of the entire day and give me a CZ. Much productivity and and and fruitful creativity is as possible. So that's the like. That's where it started. And and, uh, today it's, you know, I got the book, but I take 12 things

every just like crushing up Adderall pills.

And yes, the end of the book basically says, Get off of coffee. Moved to Admiral Uh, no. Adderall is covered in the book, and an Adderall is really it's in that dangerous category. It's each, especially last three years, is just coming up. More Moorhouse. Neuro toxic. It is for your brain being that it's doing quite significant medium and long term damage to your neurology, even though you're getting these these bumps of energy every every day from it. The But no, it's it's actually the things that I take very few stimulants, a drink,

very, very little coffee, and it's actually these other things on the increase. Things that increased blood flow to your brain thinks that will decrease inflammation, Improve your community support because your body just wasting so much energy fighting off your latent. Uh um So

what is it? What's in it? What's in the James

juice? The James juice is, um, goto beyond coffee book dot com and you can put it an email. You see everything and taking them in the morning as well as for listeners online. You can read the 1st 22 chapters for free, but the five important things that I tell people take in the morning Our omega three's a mega threes in a specific kind called D H A. Um, that is no protective neural regenerative. So if you've ever had concussions, no omega threes D h s so funny to switch from what we're talking about philosophically going thio morning regimen. But, uh, but it is Ah, it's it's they're one in the same mind body spirit. The things that I take in the morning are part of the way that I manage stress. So omega threes,

D h A. That is just Ah, there's about 35 years of research of that improving your cognition and and being really great for no protection and and nerve regeneration. Second is tumeric tumeric, and the book talks about the studies on tumeric. It's, you know, in Indian food it's commonplace, but it's it's very inexpensive. It's as effective as Prozac for anti depressant and anti anxious property. So it is. It is, uh, and incredibly cheap. So tumeric is really powerful, is anti inflammatory,

which your body's just expending a specialist. We age a lot of energy on inflammation. Third is CDP cooling, and that is naturally, It calmly is actually founded eggs so you can get it from eggs. Or you could take a supplement to increase blood flow to your brain, which will improve lateral thinking. So creative thinking can improve your creative thinking upto 2025% Meaning If I were to give you a test of name a CZ many annual animals as you can in 20 seconds. If you could actually test yourself around 25% more second glasses. Baco Pulmonary backup. An herb that's been around for ah for also knows brahmi. It's been around for 3000 years in India on diabetic herb that will increase your memory 20%. So you you've got to take it at least two weeks, ideally four weeks in a row. But it'll increase your memory your short term recall 20% so I could list off numbers and you'd recall more of them by taking this. And it's completely safe.

Every single one of these completely safe. You can take them every morning and then the last is Mata. So switching from coffee over to macho Green Team for listeners, they'll hear me talk about macho quite a bit on the podcast. But Mata green tea, which is powdered green tea, is my favorite form of caffeine. It has elfin in it, that which goes back toe kind of, uh, the very beginning of the story, which was the conversation with my doctor. But the powdered leaf that much as as opposed to regular green tea has 130 times Maurin accidents than regular green tea. Because of that, the leaf in there so macho green tea is, uh, it's, I think it's the healthiest, most creative form of caffeine that people could drink it morning or in the afternoon.

That's a lot, so we could just replicate that we don't have to read the book.

It's kind of you in reading the book. You'll see. There's some some, uh, some things in there, especially when it comes to mushrooms like a lion's mane, mushrooms that that are a phenomenally powerful form of energy that has no caffeine, no addictive properties whatsoever. Some people actually also think that, uh, that lion's mane is, uh, well, read the book. We don't believe that I'll leave that as a little bit of cliffhanger

toe to read the book. Any final takeaways from it, like any others

that you know, the takeaway is it's super short. Uh, it's a 30 40 minute reed, so it's really short. I hate books that that drone on and on when they really could convey the message very short, you know, very, very succinctly. So it's 30 minute read if you're if you're a fast reader. So, yeah, check out the book. It's a very easy read in a big shadow toe. Co authors Dr Dan Angles, who's psychiatrist and neurologists. He's probably probably the foremost healthcare professional on this,

this kind of forefront of cognitive improving compounds, and then Katherine Haynes, who is a friend of mine from high school who is a medical researcher and specifically works in pediatric neurology, which is one of the medical one of the professional medical areas that focuses a lot on these natural and less invasive on dhe. Far less prescriptive approach is to, uh, Thio things like a d d two things like anxiety and Children because, you know, they really want to try everything they can before putting someone on prescription sets. A medical realm that really focuses on these compounds. A big shout out to those two. But no, that's

about it. Awesome. Well, I'm looking for

to read this. All right. Thank you, J man, and thank you all for coming out. Thank you, Justin, for coming tonight. Big round of applause. Thank you. Liquid death for sponsoring the event. Big shadow toe liquid death and and thank you all for, ah, for attending and listening to blow line and supporting this project that will likely culminate in a book of its own over time. So thank you all for coming. A friend's and listeners, I hope you enjoyed today's episode.

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