Hey, friends and listeners, Today's episode is with Anonymous Guest. Guess that we're gonna call John Doe, and it is a really compelling episode. John and I talk about the below the line version of being a police officer, and we cover what has changed in San Francisco, much of it for the worst over the years, in his opinion, and he's from San Francisco as well. There's no doubt many good things that have happened in San Francisco and last few decades, But some also really strange and unfortunate things in his estimation, and we talked about the root causes of that in his mind. We also cover why he became a police officer in first place and what he didn't expect to see an experience once he became a police officer and a whole lot more. There were some technical issues with the audio, so we apologise to listeners for that, and you'll hear some swishing in the background as well as the microphone,

just not picking up everything like we wanted it to. But that was standing. This is one of the most interesting conversations we've had on the podcast, and we certainly talked about a world you don't get to hear much about and the blood line version of what that world is like. So I think you're gonna enjoy this one before we start the show. Take a moment to imagine this. Think of your smartest friend right now. That person goes to the future 18 months from now, then comes back and tells you everything that is about to happen. They tell you what the hottest trends are. Which start ups become unicorns, which opportunities to place your bets on. That would be pretty nice, right? Well, you don't need to dream,

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and you just rate the podcast. Doesn't matter if you give it one star five stars, three stars Whatever you honestly think of it, please jump into the podcast app and give a rating. Today if you dig what we're doing with belittle and then you want to support it, that is the easiest and most helpful way. You can't support us because those ratings air used by the podcast players to see which episodes and which podcasts to feature for for their audiences. So if you could take two seconds and leave a rating would greatly appreciate all right, without further d'oh, we're gonna jump into it with an anonymous guessed the first anon. Well, 2nd 2nd anonymous guest on the podcast. We're gonna give them. Give him the name John Doe. So let's jump into it with John Doe. This'd is below the line.

All right, I got John Doe. Is John Mr That Be the name for the Cepsa. Okay. All right. We're drinking some highball black cherry organic energy drink. Have you ever had one of these? I have

had one of these that said all the bad stuff. It's got sugar. Caffeine.

That's right. All yeah, all of this stuff. It tastes pretty good

that that taste great. And no, I'm from believer in those

things. Is yeah, it tastes pretty good. So this is a unique episode for for me and were mutual. We have mutual friends, and we got to chatting one time about your career as a, uh, as an officer here in San Francisco for 36 years. Yes. And I just love the conversation so much that I just said, Hey, you, would you be open to coming onto Ah, podcast that I have around kind of beneath the surface Look at so many different types of people in professions, but This just sounded so fascinating. A few minutes end of the conversation. I remember pausing.

The conversation was like, Hey, I before I learned too much. I would love to have you on. So thank you, Jon, for which is the fake name for coming on to the podcast and real quick as we were just getting started, I said, You know, you can have a seat over there and and we'll get settled in And and you said That's what we used to do. Thio two suspects

is what we It's where we placed

the suspect. What do you mean place? What? What about it? Reminded you of with her back to the wall. Really?

Why? How come? Because that's psychologically. How do you do it? Really, whatever, Because the other month I'm scooting their chair by when they're talking to you. And also they do see the door is a way out.

Interesting. What is that? Why is that happen? Because

the way out is to tell the truth.

Fascinating. That's maybe I've been doing that without even knowing it. So I purposely put a lot of people to sit in the corner seat, were in my wife's art studio, and it's not too big, maybe 15 by 20 feet or so. And I just do it so that people can see the whole space rather than seeing just a small portion and feeling like they're in a corner. They get to see the entirety of of the space. But, um, that's really interesting. So how is the truth tied to seeing the door? How is the door tied to to getting the truth out of suspect?

Well, the way out of the trouble is to tell the truth, we encourage people to tell the truth.

What are some of the other tricks that that you guys utilize and suspect number? And how many out of 36 years, how many suspect conversations do you think? You? You

hundreds, hundreds. But I mean, there's their schools. There's, ah, actually 40 our course called batty, which is almost everybody goes through that which teaches you interviewed an interview and interrogation, which I don't like the term interrogation. How kind would because I believe I always want to interview my suspects, conducted an interview I never interrogated. Gold term interrogation bothers me.

What is because interrogation distinction

between seven interviews where you will be speaking with somebody. An interrogation is where you try to psychologically dominate them, and you sometimes threaten them. You can threaten them with what's going to happen to them, and I don't I don't do that. And when I would be in court, the defense would always train. Characterize it as you interrogated my client. It's I interviewed your client and then we would go back and forth about that. Of course,

I don't even like calling these interviews. I like column conversations and think about the man's conversations. You know, I have one or two questions in my head, but everything else is really just a natural interest in the other person. So I try to keep it as conversational as possible. People would think that an interrogation or kind of that control and manipulation and domination would be advantageous. Thio getting to the truth.

But I don't think it needs to be characterized as an interrogation. I believe it's just an interview. I would approach it by and I still teach this. Actually, I would approach it by, um, we're here together. Something happened and you're in. You were purportedly involved and we are here together. The fax. There's two sides to every story. I'm here to hear your side of the story. That's why I'm here, and we would go from there. Of course they lie. And then the evolving Tell me that's not what happened. And you there's there's different stages.

I mean, it's a very complex thing. It's not like, you know, there's

a lot to Dio We got the time. Well, that's

a whole new It's a whole nother topic. So it's okay. Well, what is the conference A year you have until the story. Then you confront them with the evidence. But basically the bottom line is, which is why I don't I actually I enjoyed it. I didn't feel that we were doing anything that was unethical in anyway, because all we would tell them was always looking for is the truth that nobody wants to be lied to. Right now, I know you're not being truthful and you're gonna and we tell them, and it's actually true when you tell that you're telling me a story that I don't believe it's truthful and I think you know is not truthful. And when you tell the truth, you're gonna feel better and everybody thinks that's crazy. But it's actually

true. No, I think it's biologically is

what I tell them. And then I would have guys to confess to horrible things and tell me how much better that he felt. We felt there was a weight off their shoulders.

What was one of the most horrible things you

normally while shooting? People are setting buildings on fire. These

kind of what was one that sticks out in your 36 year career. That was just just such an intra, really unique or interesting interview. Interrogation. Ah, moment. But I

remember one time a very, very bad guy who had shot a lot of people. And then there Bill depended on it because everybody he shot who lived. I was afraid that if they said he shot them, he would come back and kill and their families. And so I got involved in a case where you shot somebody, Um, in traffic at night. There was a woman, um, who was also in it is sitting in her car, who witnessed it right there. And she wasn't involved because she wasn't in that whole mix. And so she actually pulled him out of a photo spread and we did a phone because we knew shorter. Six photos. She pulled the guy outside. That was the guy that did the shooting.

Of course. The victim who lived in woman, I didn't want to identify him. So we got a search warrant for this place and we recovered a gun. And, uh, I knew the shooting was gonna go anywhere because the victim wouldn't testify. You've got a civilian witness who would think about it, not identify him in court, and her i d alone wouldn't be enough to convict him. But he admitted to me that the gun was hit and I knew his previous convictions. He had, ah, two or three violent felony convictions prior in the three months he'd been out of jail, he shot for five people already in the Western addition because they're limited number shooters. He's had a lot of people and we knew it. We just couldn't catch. We couldn't pin it on him. He didn't realize that there was this program that we were involved with for the last five years called, and we still are

five years right now, like that back then. Well, what year was this? The years have

been about 1995 so there's a federal program called Operation Trick Trigger Lock. What happens is you arrest the person on local charges and then they're indicted by a federal grand jury for the gun. And they only go after people have three violent felony convictions. And if they're convicted of three, if they already have three violent felony convictions and they are found guilty of possessing a firearm, they get 25 years in prison in federal prison. So it takes the local criminal justice system out of the equation because they let everybody go.

And why is that a good thing? Because

this guy's been shooting

people. No, no. I get why it's good that he's going away. But why is it good to take the local?

Because all he would get in San Francisco for a felon with a firearm is two years. I see. And he wouldn't do two years because you have to understand that whole process.

Well, when you hear that two years what? What is it actually translate to in

your mind? I know what it is. It's three months. What? Yeah, you have

to understand. I'm I'm gonna love this episode by the way, I'm gonna love this conversation because there's so many areas that we could go to and it's just talk. I'm

saying I wouldn't be three money would be. Actually, it would be, Ah, seven months. I'm sorry.

So Okay, well, still not two years, but seven months I and the fact that you know that I just know nothing about this side of things that every city

has its not just serious, it's It's a lot of a lot of police officers don't know this either. So in in California, so you could you read the papers, Somebody gets sentenced to 18 years and you think that's pretty good, right? Well, actually, in San Francisco and in many other counties, they're given triple time triple time credit for county jail time served against their prison sentence, and they play. And there's a game that's played where the public defender will keep delaying the case to get them or county jail time. For instance, San Francisco holds their priest sentenced felons twice as long as any other county in California. So if somebody's arrested for a violent felony in San Francisco, there will eventually be a preliminary hearing. They're entitled to one within 10 days. But they'll don't go delay it for months on purpose on purpose to build up the credit in county jails. That's where kind

of, especially if they know that they're gonna be convicted,

they're gonna be corrected. Yeah, yeah, But even it builds up their credit for time. And then once they are held the answer on a preliminary hearing and they go for trial, they'll delay the trial as long as they can. Then they'll plead guilty right before trial. Then, after he plead guilty, will be months before their sons preparation of a probation report. Other evidence it's brought in that goes on for three or four months. So most counties in California, if you're arrested for a violent felony, you will be sentenced in six months. Francisco, with one year and with one year here, that's the average at three years state prison.

So I have what's called walkovers. So basically you're in custody here for a year. He practically guilty what you did to get three years in state prison to your breathe released, and you're supposed to walk over from San Francisco kind of jail to the parole office called a walk or just walk over to the parole officer report for parole. Although you never want to state prison. Although it shows that you did

okay, I kind of got lost there in the end. But what is the walk over? What is that?

You're released and told that walk over to the police, go to the parole office, report to approval officer to be placed on parole for six months. But they never d'oh you just take off

S o if they get 18 years. Well, for instance,

that there was a guy that recent got 18 years, but he had been in custody for three years because poked fender wouldn't let the case go for three years. So that counts for, what, 99 years? Right? So he gets nine years immediate credit, and then he'll get good behavior. That's under two years. So he'll serve a few more years, but not the a team that we're told.

Mmm. So it might be five years. Yeah, And that would be 18. So a pretty serious offender.

Oh, yeah, with numerous prior so they wouldn't have the 18 years to begin with. So there's a lot that goes on. The people are not aware of.

That is the entirety of my excitement for this conversation is I'm so unaware of all of these aspects. Most people are what are some of the things that you feel like? Uh, it is a massive disservice. Maybe it's it's in that being that we just talked about committing, you know, actually, um, you know, sentences. But what are some of the things that you feel like? It's a massive disservice to the public for us to be in the dark on

well, way discussed. Another occasion of the auto burglaries in San Francisco. I mean, auto burgers have been a problem for 50 years, 60 years,

and actually real quick before we dive into auto burglary. Do you mind giving a little background on you? Because

it's I was. I was the police department for 36 years, was in the patrol division for 13 years and investigations for 23 years.

And is there categorization within investigations, or is it just the investigations department?

Well, then I'd give up who I was. Yeah, Well, my God, Wills No, some other time. Yeah. Okay, um, wide ranging investigation.

Excellent. Okay, good catch. Because I do not want you to give up who you are, but ah, but this is information that we just don't as a citizen in San Francisco, just don't have access to are rarely ever have even conversational access to anything around this side of things. The safety and protection of our of our citizenry. So Okay, so you're saying auto burglary? Um, well, it's always been

a problem, has always been a problem. And now it's in the headlines. People really concerned because it's exploded. But it's always been an issue.

Why has it exploded? What?

What was exploited because of proper 47 which was a proposition that was voted in and taken 2014 which was written by, um, George Gascogne and, uh, the guy Rosen who's a d a from Santa Clara County. And it was it was. And how they realize that they made a mistake when they did it. But it was given to the public at as making drug offenses all misdemeanors and getting people treatment. Because in the past, up until then, possession of heroin, possession of cocaine position about amphetamine were felonies, which people were but were arrested for a felony. They were never charged with a felony. They were in charge of the misdemeanor retrying in treatment. Well, now they're all misdemeanors,

which means that be cited so they don't go into custody when they're cited. They don't come to court. Nothing happens. So there's no hammer. There's no reason they're going to treatment. So this was a nice idea, and you know it. Whether drugs or even a law enforcement problem is to be debated. Its most people think there are social problem, how they got into law enforcement. We have no idea when this has happened in the thirties and why no one knows, but

for somehow would have been the case in the twenties or welcome

pain there. T cocaine was legal. Marijuana was legal, and all of a sudden it became a problem. A CZ much alcohol. But I'll call remain legal until Prohibition came about. So they made cocaine. Um, Mary marijuana crimes, they know good other drugs came around here when everything else they became crimes that the police would have to dio

and they just weren't before 1996. You just take whatever.

Yeah, no, there's no law against those things.

And so was it just common sense to ah, or was it tryto? How did society try to curb or inform folks around, uh, around the downsides of these substances?

Well, I don't think they did. They just made the crimes. I mean, they didn't inform about alcohol before Prohibition. I don't believe they just ended teii the truth. I don't know. Uh, there was a TV show when I was growing up called the Untouchables, which was about pro prohibition in America. Remember, thinking is a kid. How could we have been so unsophisticated? How can America have made alcohol ill? Illegal like this won't take on the police department. I completely saw how it happened. And since I've done some reading on it,

But I completely what happened? Well, when in my experience in the police Department, my suspects were almost all intoxicated of that committed crimes, plus the drunk people that would you'd have to take into custody because they were so drunk. And then most of the victims were also intoxicated. So on the street does somebody got robbed at two o'clock in the morning Who they were drunk and the suspect was Trump. They're all intoxicated

have I've heard the majority of all like sexual assault is while intoxicated and alcohol is always related. Or it was something like I think it was in Malcolm Gladwell's latest book. And I think he said it was something like 78% of the time alcohol ISS is involved and that's just I mean, that's just I don't know. I heard that two weeks ago. So that's just one stat line in my head of how pervasive alcohol is within ah within at least one one type of violent

act. Oh, it, Zoe, Quite a problem. I mean, there's the problem is that whatever percentage with society can deal with alcohol any reasonable manner. But then there's that small group that they get so drunk that they're passed out in the gutter. Now they're doing other drugs, but that at that time the other drugs weren't as pervasive as they are now, so we would deal with very, very intoxicated people all the time.

So when you say you when you before you're an officer, you couldn't imagine how this would become illegal or a police problem. And then, as you became an officer, you totally saw just the connection between alcohol and in

crime. Yes, and then having read events in reading on it since then, I read a book of the history of alcohol in America. Because history of alcohol is the history of America, you could actually do any research on it. The whole country was set up on alcohol, where alcohol, the taxes on alcohol, supported the entire the government, and there was no need for any other taxes. There was so much out clubbing consumed, there was the ways that the way that the out that the green was grown was set up in a way that it supported the government. So this book goes into how it went as things went on. And then the author says, By the time they got to the twenties, we needed a break.

We needed prohibition because of the way the country was going. Productivity had fallen. The amount of violence related alcohol was so great, especially that domestic violence that the country needed a break from alcohol. He and he's, um he's very in favor of alcohol, he said. The country needed a break. The way things were going, it was going. It was going down. It was kind of pull apart. It's pretty interesting.

What is that? What is some of the reading material to check out?

I'm thinking of the book. I think it's called the King's County Distillery. Okay, it gives a complete history about calling America

and so fast boarding toe 2019 in the world where you end and where I'm sure we're gonna jump on a handful of different topics during this conversation. During this interrogation, I should say a 2019 when there's the debate of decriminalizing, you know, almost every drug in San Francisco and the war on drugs. After 36 years of experience and police side of things, what is what is your mind set when it comes to this debate?

Well, basically, drugs have been de de criminalized, basically, um,

in San Francisco. Where do you think nationally

in California? In California? Almost for sure. I mean hard drugs. It's a misdemeanor to possess them. I think sales is still a felony, but it's very hard to prove a sales case. The marijuana thing. I mean, if you talked to Kourt. We we would talk about this years and years ago when I think when I first came in, marijuana was still with us. Still a felony, a waste. But Mia decided, with less than an ounce where it was, um,

we would joke and say, When was the last time you went to a marijuana related family fight? Never. When was the last thing went to an alcohol related family fight? Always every domestic violence with alcohol related. But you never went to one where we've been smoking pot we got. We got an argument. We started to beat each other up. You never. It never happened. I started. So why shouldn't so why shouldn't marijuana been legal and alcohol being illegal? I mean, that's where the

interesting And so So you're in favor of this decriminalization?

Well, not necessarily. You have to look at the downside, but there's a downside alcohol. So should it be as legal as it is, there's a downside to marijuana. The problem is, there's a section of society that can't handle these things, and so do we protect them or not? I mean, there's downsides to marijuana. A, um, a motivational syndrome is the big downside marijuana. And I've seen it happen. A lot of people where

they don't mean they

lose motivation. He loves all motivation. Driving under the influence of marijuana is a problem which society doesn't face yet. I mean, you see it. Well, the problem is we know that there are crashes that are occurring because of it. But the test for it is that you can't convict anybody of it.

Well, obviously you're not running for mayor, and you might not have all of these kind of talking points and sound bites collected for all these different topics we're going to touch on. But what if you were mayor, Reviewer, Governor of California? What would your viewpoint in stance be? What would the actual, uh, the actual procedural approach to thio drug use

be well, Governor Brown was against Jerry Brown was against the decriminalization of marijuana

was against it.

He was against it. He looked. He said he was looking to the future where he was afraid that the workforce would become impaired so that the future of California is it going up? Because other states that where marijuana was not legal, that it would impair the workforce here, and he was very concerned about that. You gotta look, you know, you need to look years out sometimes as to how things are going to affect society.

I've been to a couple of yogurt shops, a couple of restaurants where the servers were clearly high and for about for five minutes after leaving. Being like that's really strange and then putting it together other probably

high. Well, we discussed how many times you go to stores and the check out persons high. So I told my kids, You know, when the when they're high, you've got to really make sure you give the right change, right? And that's just something that word chatting about. I mean, then you got people are pretty miche machinery. You've got everything driving people, driving people. Would people are there people who are not as creative as they would be? We don't we don't We don't know these answers.

Well, one of the questions that I wanted you to think about before a conversation, which was and tell me three stories that have helped shape who you became as a helped shape, who you became as a police officer. So what stories come to mind that helped shape your not just your professional path, but help shape your view of the city view of the world as a police officer.

Well, I was thinking about it, and, um, growing up, I think my parents fought a lot, and that was always kind of a peacekeeper. And then, um, when I was, uh, in high school, I had a job in a movie theater. And where did where did you grow up in San Francisco? And, um, I think as my job in the future,

you'd be a peacekeeper in a problem solver. Managing problems there. Um, so that would give me a little bit the peacekeeper thing. And then, actually, it's interesting because I how by being a police officer, you realize that actually, the term is peace Officer met fleet legal term, all police officers and sheriff's deputy sheriffs, air peace officers. And that's the big distinction is if you are a peace officer or not, because with a peace officer, your sworn enemy of all kinds of rights and responsibilities, then you know, as opposed to security guards and all kinds of other people do this kind of work. So that that term was pretty interesting. They coined that term years and years ago, and for that reason

we seem to have forgotten that term.

Yet we have forgotten it.

I don't think I've ever heard of that term being connected with with the police, at least not in the last 15

20 years. Well, that's what's in the penal code. That's where the lock of the law comes. The everybody's a peace officer and their i D card says Peace officer on it.

Okay. And so that appealed to you about what was

it about the best? I got older, like in my late teens early twenties, also thinking about the questions you had posed growing up. My father had a business downtown, and he would hire people that have been released from jail and from prison, especially ex convicts. They were convicted, but they're, you know, ex cons, usually people that have served time in state prison, so he would hire them. And at that time to go to state prison, that was serious stuff. I mean, now they're a lot more people that go to state prison now because they're,

of course, are more people in that age group. But also, they've committed so many crimes through their lives that eventually got to go to state prison. But these were no serious of offenders. They would be out. He would give them a chance. Give them a job. Your father? Yeah. And I would have contact with these people, realize that they had offended, and they've done some bad things. But they weren't necessarily bad guys, and it only bid him a couple times. He had a couple of guys that did bad things. Every hired

them. How many in total did he did he hire? Would you guess

over the years, I say I don't be pregnant in the fifties? Well,

so you had a lot of interaction with ex cons. Yeah. And okay, so keep going. That was in your teenage years

and then, isn't it? But before they, uh, when I was a kid growing up, um, there was a motorcycle police officer that would sit down the street from our house. We've people to run the stop sign, and I would chat with him a lot and then pretty much knew when he was gonna be there, So I'm gonna wait for him So we talked a lot, so I was like two or three everyone guy than other guys were coming. So it was like interacting with them, hearing their stories, realizing they were just regular

people. How much was in brutal honesty? How much was it? A factor? The prospect of having a gun and a badge? You're putting a percentage

point. Do you really think about it that much like I don't have to be forced to go to the range? I'm not into guns, so

people are. When I was in high school, I wanted to join the FBI completely because you have a gun. A badge is a terrible, terrible reasons. I'm not proud of this, but a gun, a badge and I just would have this movie afternoon. Remember what the movie was was movie image where it just flash the badge and they could run into anywhere and, you know, run into a stadium to go chess. Chase a criminal, and I'll be honest. The peacekeeping aspect was not. That was not the attraction. It was the excitement. And when I think about that story and I think about police officers today from afar,

it's really just I only get the above the line version of other jobs. I worry that it's a lot of people that are wired like me that were excited by the prospect of drama and chasing a bad guy. And then that ends up not being ends up. Not, I imagine not being the day to day. What

will you do? Some of that you do some of that. I mean, you do flash the badge and go into places and that you wouldn't be allowed to go into

but the excitement of that, like

you know, it's exciting, The job is very exciting, and cops are adrenaline junkies. But it's also what kills them young is because you travel the constant drilling, how they found. That's what. That's why a lot of cops don't live very long. But, well, the adrenaline going your heart three times a night. It's not normal. You thought for regular people breaking people don't go through that. It's not good for you.

So in that stress on a typical night

Oh yeah, you get adrenaline shots because you're hearing things on the radio, you're getting sent to things that you get a shot of adrenaline you're seeing things. You get a shot of

a general an average of two or three times a night.

I have to think about it. But I would say so.

And what are the things that that you tell me more? What are the things that on a typical night we

will send you a been colliery in progress? King Center That time out a burglary in progress is a big deal because we catch a lot of auto burglars. We do. We still dio did then, but there they don't. Nothing happens to them. So now it's more organized. The gangs were organized, but they still catch them. But the problem has always been that we catch on a burglar. He's done 50 auto burgers before we catch up, at least, but then we catch him. Used to be a felony. It was a big deal. It's not even a crime anymore.

Wait, how did that get tossed in a proper prop? 47. I thought that was

the organization criminalized by the foot, but they also put in there the same proposition, not only to do the drugs, but they reduced all the penalties for theft in California so basically there's they raise the limit for grand theft. But then the most important thing when they did that it was written by defense attorneys. They wrote the law So that seekers, when somebody's arrested, we arrest somebody. We charge them well, they're booked for a felony within 48 hours or less. The case must be all put together, brought to a district attorney who then charges the case. And that's in every every county. When you go to the district attorney, you've gotta have your whole case. You've gotta have all your victim's statements. You interview these people did all this.

You got the evidence to prove the case when it goes to D A. Because the d. A. We book somebody on the probable cost the d. A has to charge them when they've determined that it's beyond a reasonable doubt that they did it. So you gotta have your whole case together

in 48

hours within 48 hours, okay? Or else the cases discharge and you gotta work on and get a warrant. The person's arrest. So they made the law where for grand theft, which is a felony. So I think it's $1950 value. You gotta prove that a time of charges. So how do you prove? And if you can't prove it, the guy gets out of jail. So the guy breaks in your current steals your laptop. All right. Well, to start with, auto burglary should be a felony, and it kind of is it's a wobbly if we call it,

but you have to be able to prove the car was locked. How do you prove a car's locked? Well, the person has to say, I am certain I locked my car. Okay? We used to be able to say, Well, look, I smashed the window. The car must have been locked, right? That doesn't work anymore. No. So what happened was that doesn't work. So then Scott Wiener introduced a bill two years ago in the Assembly that said,

We want to change the law so that if a car windows smashed that the judge could tell the jury the car must have been locked. They did not get out of committee. So that did not become the law. So to prove auto burglary now say somebody lives in Ohio in their car at rental car gets, gets a window, get smashed. We have to fly them out here for trial and have them say I am absolutely, absolutely certain that I locked the car. Some of the defense argues, Well, how do you don't you lock the car? What if you left it unlocked by accident? Is that a possibility? Well, I guess it's possible. Well, you're

even if the windows smashed. So if you're a criminal, would you just look for Hertz stickers?

That's what they what they dio they look for out of state plates. They look for the That's why they made him. They they tried to pass a law in San Francisco. I think the supervisors did that. They can't. The rental companies can't put a sticker on their car.

They can't. They can't because of

this because of this problem. So they're all trying to do the back door. This was supposed to just make the law the

heart our car was broken into three times the 1st 2 years here. Yeah, and I'm just now putting it together that we had. I still had Texas plates. Sure, I couldn't believe how many times it was just broken into and it's because if they get pulled over, they get arrested. For that, it's a misdemeanor or it's too difficult. Thio.

What's amiss, Peter that because they won't be charged there, Cited in the cases and charged for burglary for auto burglary. Auto Parker. So let's say you go after him for grand theft because they stole your laptop okay?

Or they steal the car itself

is kind of hard to steal a car. Okay. I mean, unless you it's a Honda. So they always list the cars of most popular cars. We still build all those are so cool cars. No, they're not cool cars based on cheap box again. So the joke is at a certain high school in San Francisco. If you randomly grab 10 kids and searching to, we're gonna have shaped Honda Keys because Hondas and Toyota's, they won't spend the money on the lock, so they're very easy to steal. So getting back to the grand theft you have to charge, you have to prove so your laptop gets stolen, your receipt for your laptop

and then maybe, maybe not.

I needed within 48 hours and then you got three seat. Well, that's not with laptops worth two years ago, right? So what's it worth now? How do you prove it? It's impossible. Then they have the law. Had been that?

When did this change?

Prop. 47 Trump 47 Chiefs All the offense loss.

But that was in 2014.

Yes, that's when this whole thing exploded. And then everybody they have been convicted under these laws in the past were let out of jail. 30,000 at the same time in California

because of the because the change in the theft loss that laws were the drug loss

theft laws cause we got did time, drug laws, Really, it's the fifties. Or keep him in a thing called a petty theft with a prior, which was very valuable if you'd been convicted of petty theft, which was under our laws, and he had served one day in jail, which was unusual. But let's say you did so you were serial thief. The next time you were charging could charge. Is a felony any kind of theft?

And why do you say why do you use the word valuable? You mean? He said the petty theft with a prior

was valuable is a very valuable law because it actually put people in jail thieves, serial thieves, career criminals

and you as a police officer. Did you see that it is valuable because we don't have that many tools. We don't have that many things toe to build cases on. There's somebody I don't know, loopholes to get out of them or what? Why, that's not a choice valuable, as if it's like a tool that goes away.

It was a tool that's going away, and I saw its effects before and after I saw in the late eighties. The law had been on the books, but we were discouraged from um, if somebody got arrested for shoplifting at Macy's, Macy's got that. We would have to cite him out. So you just go back to shoplift again.

I know you're gonna have to. I'm totally ignorant of these dreams. When you say cite him out, just give me a ticket anyway, don't Yeah, and that's not very much of a inconvenient.

So the department said, From now on, before you cite them, you're gonna check the criminal history in California. And if they have a conviction for theft, anything related crime and a day served in jail that you're gonna book him for the felony of theft with a prior.

So because you can basically prove that their ah, continual thief, right?

And we saw our response to shoplifting calls plummet 80%. They stop stealing from the stores because these people were getting charged with felonies

and that is tied thio to prop

47. And now that's gone away. And now you'll see that they don't have the shoplifting is unbelievable. People running into stores, grabbing things, running out whole gangs?

Or do I have seen you continue to videos on how?

Yeah, that's of Apple Stores? So it's all because

of Prop. 40. Have that has it statistically blown up skyrocketed in just in the last five years?

Yes. And besides the statistics, anecdotally, you see it the shoplifting that we're paying higher prices now for things stores air. They say they can't even because of the theft there, even having trouble staying open. So many stores, every so then when they're trying to change the law became changed, which in some of these surprised me, used to be a theft of a gun. Any gun was grand theft that's all. He was a firearm that changed under 47 so that it was a misdemeanor. Then when? And then we're overall in the anti gun laws, right When they tried to change the law so that theft of a gun became a felony, we can get out of the Subway committee couple Justice Committee, even in California. In California? No, because it's another felony. They don't want any more.

So And what is that? What is that? That battle and then push back against no more felonies. Is it just because of over incarceration? Why is there a push towards fewer

felonies? Well, there's a claim of over incarceration and that everything should be d d criminalized. But if you look at the little things like this that come along better, just it really doesn't make any

sense. Yeah, when our car was broken into three times in our 1st 2 years, I remember the first time we we called the police. And then they basically said, like and I had No, no, I did not know what was gonna happen. I thought they were gonna like dust for prints. They didn't do anything. No. And their response was, and I think it was tied to this because it was probably around 20 1400 her 1st 3 years. So maybe 2015. But it was Ah, yeah, They basically said,

You know, if if they didn't see anything really valuable, it's not that we could do right. And I was just like, What's gonna cost this 700 bucks to fix this window? Yeah, it's kind of like up you're out of luck and then happen again. Happen 1/3 time, But the city sure is really quick. Tow tow cars come here. They are really quick to add inconvenience to to folks that are in a parking space a little too long history. But you have the inconvenience to someone who gets their car broken into it. It's hard to bother the city to help with.

It's a real problem, and we would respond to these over the years. Go to Burger has always been a problem, but it's skyrocketed so much that and you feel bad search with his tourists. It's really going to kill you. It's gonna hurt the economy of San Francisco because the word's gotten out. Plus it makes me so angry that. How come, Francis? I had to run errands yesterday. I wanted to put some stuff in my car and come back in an hour and go. I want a load loaded now. I can't do that

anymore. And you could before. Oh yeah, it. I lived in Cape Town, South Africa, where my car was broken into, maybe twice, actually. That's kind of that's a sad comparison. Car's broken into more in San Francisco that in Cape Town, which is one of the most violent violent cities in the world, and the logic there was, Yeah, it was, You can't leave anything visible at all. It is like clockwork.

Within 15 minutes, it will be stolen. And I think you adapt at pretty quickly because it's Hey, you know, you're not in Kansas anymore. You're in South Africa, you know, in the United States, crime there's was pretty awful. And that is so interesting that yeah, it took a few years, but now, in San Francisco, my mind said is the exact same. We don't leave anything in the back. Anything in the front. It is if you have anything in the back, it is completely had. I never had to think about that in Texas are really

North Carolina. We shouldn't have to live that way. And I remember growing up in the sixties, um, people are putting iron gates on there, be in front of their front doors on their windows. This was a big through the sixties and early seventies. Can they? Actually, the seventies. I mean, the iron companies were like doing this land office business. They're putting up iron gates on every door in San Francisco. Every and you still see some. But actually that we used to be more. What changed That was the three strikes law. They made a residential burglary,

a strike commercial. Burghley was not a strike, so the burglars all would break into stores over night and steal things. But they weren't breaking into houses during the day when people would work as much as they used to. And because the thing has been people

always said still exists. The street three strikes, Yes, but this prop 47 it

made the burglary, uh, had weakened it

a little bit. It's well, what was the point? What was the what was the point of

proper for you to read that in the other. The other proposition was to get people out of prison, and basically they called the prison realignment. Part of the problem was California was under a federal court order about their prison medical care that they weren't providing proper prison medical care for all the prisoners. Most this had to do with dental care because of people doing methamphetamine. I mean, you find that I don't know what the percentages. I believe it's 70% of the people in company prisons are meth addicts. Well, that time there were no more. Then I almost got a lot on route living in tent cities all over, especially Oakland. They have severe that dental problems. We were spending millions of dollars on medical and especially dental care, which since they let 30,000 people out. Do you mean you don't read about that anymore? And there's no more federal court order about the medical and dental care company prisons Now,

this was to get it on the street. I mean, he's either not getting the dental care where they're getting it on the county level. That was another big problem that they did this prison realignment didn't get the money to the county jails. When they put people front center from state prison in county jail, they weren't giving the money to properly care for them.

So was that the inception of this was around medical health and specifically dental? Yes. And so the idea was, Just get them out of the president's get him out, and then you don't have to cover it. We don't

have to cover because we have had less of a population

we can handle in populous, right?

I mean, I remember. I don't forget catching a guy breaking into a car in front of at this time. It was a serious deal. He broke into a car south of market in front of everybody who was in for, like, a Starbucks of people around watching to call the police. We got there quite the guy. And, um, you know, I've been in and out of jail lot. What's this all about? You know, he goes, Oh, I had an abscessed tooth. I go. And because I needed taken care of you wanted

to get arrested, Do you know? Because you needed dental care. Wow. All right, So what would the the above the line version. What was the branding is I didn't follow Prop 47. I think once I hear the word prop, I'll be honest. Half my mind just struts off. It feels like just kind of political b s. Ah, and there are so many of them. I don't know why they choose that as their branding nomenclature, but what does the above the line version of Prop. 47 that they try to tell the state? And what was the below the line version? Just tow tie. Ah Ah Bo on this because the finding guys say I'm never

debug the above the line was which was very good, which was, we need to reduce the population of drug addicts that are in jail. Because if we make, if we make drug crimes no longer a felony, then people won't be in prison for having heroin, flabby methamphetamine on that. But they tied into the theft. If they'd been just that would have been fine, but they had for some reason, really, stuff was in there. Now Rosen's going back and said he made a mistake. He's still the d A. In Santa Clara County. Gascon has never apologized. Roses going back said, I made a mistake. We need to tweak this law now. We need to change the theft things and they won't do it.

And what is the below the line version of Ste. Effects of this of the last five years?

It's been horrible. It's why we have. That is why we have the tents on the streets, these air people who used to be incarcerated for petty crimes, for petty, for theft crimes and they're in methamphetamine. So that's all they're all living on the street now. They're not in jail anymore, which you get into the whole thing. Well, these people should be in prison. Well, you know what? Maybe some people shouldn't be in prison, but most of the prison population and I'm talking about don't talk about County Jail. County jail actually is worse than state prison. I'm sure many mostly listers on visited state prison.

I visits in quick. When I was in high school, on a tour which was an eye opener for everybody, including my friends, I'm everyone kids saying I will never steal another car began. It's not how it is in movies. It's not that bad They're all walking bones in their cells. Throw walking around the working, doing jobs. People are in a state prison. I characterize miss two different types. That's not what I learned from the start of corrections. Actually, do they kill cries a different way? But there's antisocial personalities. These are people that,

like don't belong there. Just there mean don't belong in the street. They can't. They just They're antisocial, They hate everybody. They're miserable. They just do whatever crime that they can. Then you have the institutional personalities they're happier in than they are out. And we we let a lot of them out under this prop. 47 thes

air people like Red like Red Ana Shawshank Redemption.

I don't know, I never Oh yeah,

exactly. You want to go back, right? Yeah, because

there's an institutional personality. It's not recognized by the American Psychiatric Association, but these people, they're happier in their structure. 33 meals a day, the little lives. And when I was actually the one time we would have to goto the prisons for parole hearings and then one time actually had to go to ST Quentin to bring a prisoner back to San Francisco and actually got stuck in there because it was horrible because, um, they did a count of four o'clock and they didn't come up right? So that is, there's a did you recount? Nobody can go in or out then. Then there's, like a lock down. So I was stuck in there for, like, two and 1/2 hours,

talking to the guards, talking to prisoners and not being able to leave, which was really kind of messed up. But I think the guards characterized the prisoners as convicts and inmates, and they like convicts. Comics have usually been convicted very serious crimes, often murder because they just wanted to their time. We left woman, maybe get your sentence reduced. Inmates tend to be in there for petty crimes, and they act like jerks to themselves. Of the other prisoners. It's It's very interesting, interesting what goes on in there, but it's not like it is in the movies for their bodies in their cell, with their hands on the bars.

Looking out, they're all walking around, doing jobs, doing things, going to classes. Um, it's actually quite interesting, and of course, they do get some drugs in there they make their own little alcohol things that they're not supposed to make. Pruno.

But there's an income from you ever heard of Jenkins? You know what that is? Jenkins is in. This is educational point for listeners as well. This is not a joke, but this is Ah, a word that Ah, that a friend of mine, William Edwards from high school taught me Shawn Otto. William Jenkins is where they take a defecation into a jar and let it ferment for weeks and well, in water. Let it ferment, and then they huff the fumes.

I had never heard of

that. Well, I don't even know if it's it is a real turn. Um, I don't know how frequently people are purveying Jenkin, but that is you come to blow line for education of all sorts, and people just got a little dose of information on something they probably will always wished to unlearn. Once I learned it, I wish I I wish I had not heard it. Okay, so, uh, um I wish I was joking about that term. Feel free to look up, so just bring it back to the connection to the tent cities and Francisco in Oakland, which are for in L. A

as well. It's all over gets well when they release you. 30,000 prisoners. 10,001 to L. A. That's why I always got this horrible problem, the other 20 round eyes going called Skid Row anymore. They've got these tent cities that are set up in washes different areas of the city. Um, here the man that the other 20,000 worry released throughout the state, which they could pretty much of those 58 counties. But we have a lot of them here.

We got a lot. And what would have been a better alternate for them to stay in state prison? Is that what you're saying? If I'm reading between the lines, you know, I

think it would be better for them. I mean, they're out here doing much more drugs and living like I mean, if you look at it if you looked at the paper was a yesterday they had the pictures of that huge camp over in Oakland. Nancy. It's horrible in their in their fires and people getting hurt, and people are getting sick, and it's like the Third World. It sees the horrible, huge camps that are unsanitary

as you're thinking.

Where do we wear returning a blind eye to it?

Way certainly are a city. I think it's as you were tells a state

We don't live in Oakland.

Well, as you were as you were talking, I realized that in Cape Town have many friends that had at knives pulled on them. I've never had anything like that happen to me and Cape Town. I lived there for over two years and and luckily, never had. I think it is the murder capital of the world, if not top city. I think maybe it's number two, but ah, very violent city and the crime there. It's a beautiful, amazing city. I loved every minute of living there outside of the car, getting broken into handful times, but I Yeah, I never had a knife pulled on me over there. There's nothing violent happened in San Francisco and might have been three years and so a little more time. But three car break ins and a knife pulled on me right in broad daylight in Soma, where we worked and it was with

the robbery was just a mentally ill person

Well, what happened was the guy pulled a knife out area is following me. And just a very strange cadence of phone. I just felt like a Z 10 feet. And he's staying exactly 10 feet is muttering things. So it was certainly mentally health. Mental health related turned around and he pulls out a knife and he muttered something in appointment starts with mental health related mental health related starts. Thio, just jab. The knife is 10 feet away. Starts to jab the knife towards me. And I was like, What? The f? Okay, dude, I'm walking away and and he is,

you know, stayed about the 10 98 feet away. Then I just started walking really fast away, making sure in the corner my that he wasn't. He wasn't following me aggressively. And and he didn't. So but obviously not something you want happening in your your morning commute. I think it was 9 30

in the morning, right? Well, the problem is, we can We can tolerate a certain percentage of schizophrenics in San Francisco, untreated or not, our unmedicated, but not the not the percent we have now. We've always had a certain percentage of mentally ill people here, but right now it is so large that it impacts are way of life. What what with the numbers be? I have no idea. I just know they've always been some crazy people here. I mean, why secret that such a bad term people with mental health issues, the person you're talking about drawing on my experience? This is a person who schizophrenic,

and he's seeing things and hearing voices. It's very sad, but it's a danger to the public. And if we went through all the horrible crimes that have occurred by people that were untreated schizophrenics, it's unbelievable. And I'm not putting I'm not. Andy was something. A person has no control over it all. The only control they have when they're given their medication and they don't take it. Then I tend to get a little angry with them for a lot of them. Self medicate with methamphetamine. They do, and methamphetamine doesn't and crack cocaine that does not mix well with schizophrenic or alcohol. That somebody a little. But it's the methods they usually self medicate with methamphetamine and crack, and that is not It is not a good it actually makes the voices worse later.

They don't like to take the medication because of the way it does control the psychiatric symptoms of schizophrenia. But I've talked to them. I feel like the way it makes them feel many times. A lot of times they, uh, have problems sexually, is why they don't like to take the anti psychotic medications. So these are people who used to be removed. The one now we're medications that have to be removed from society because of their violence caused by no fault of their own because of the voices and what they see, the who's who's hallucinations. So now we have medication to give them which lessons or does away with the hallucinations and the voices, but they don't take it many of no take.

How much of the homelessness problem would you attribute to a base layer of mental health being the root cause

of the Polish people are on the street right now, I would say 40% at least.

And how would you characterize the other 60%?

Well, is you don't get the little you know about the romantic hobos we used to get usedto have have always been hobos have always been people that roamed around had no address. If you read ah lot of Carry ca Maya's books about San Francisco, he's written a couple of months and scope things. He writes articles for The Chronicle. He recently went through all this with the transient populations of San Francisco from the 19 twenties on. People that want to be housed now have all been house. So we have people out there who don't want to be house. They want to live on the street in filth, either because of because of mental health issues are anti social issues. I mean, because when you look at the I remember way how we house every year, every two years they do account is 40,000 homeless, $49,000 in San Francisco in the two year period will house 6000 homeless, but we still have 4000 homeless. So remember the movie that that woman, the woman in the doings shoveling sand um,

we're showing Sam, you know, the sand just keeps on coming. I mean, we're trying, and pretty much we've housed all the poor people that want to be housed.

I've heard the statistic that the 30% of of those homeless in San Francisco are not from here, 70% are from San Francisco. That's at least the Ah, the the statistic that gets cited is that Would you say that's

accurate? I think it's high. I think it's so diverse. That's how I see that at least 80% of night from here. From what are the ones that I've talked to when you say from here, like from San Francisco? Maybe they I don't. Maybe somebody arrived here on a bus and lived in a S R O hotel for a month. They're they're homeless and they say they're from the city night off from city Could He lived here for a month? No, I think I think I think most of people here have recently arrived and they've been told Well, first of all, if you're going to be homeless, this is the best weather. I mean, anybody was homeless in Chicago's absolutely crazy or New York Absolutely crazy.

Well, you know, if it is 30% that still is. Let's say it was simplicity. 10,000 people, 7000 from your 30%. It's increasing it by 50% right. It's obviously not a small number.

No, it isn't. And then. And if they do go back, if you read the articles about when they have gotten people to go back home where their families are, they come back here again to be homeless.

I have such a I have such a ever evolving view of, of homelessness and in general, as as someone that has been so privileged to never experience that or have any direct nor in direct experiences with family members. With that, if you were to try to articulate the above the line version of the story of homelessness and San Francisco, California and the below the line version, and then we can move on to to a few of the other topics I want to get to What what would the above the line version that were kind of told the narrative that we're told in what would What would the below one version of that

we were told that these people, through no fault of their own, are on the street and they need to be housed? Is that pretty much what we're told?

It's as pretty, but what the story that is that is peddled.

But that's not the truth of me. Of you from anecdotal readings. Uh, did you did you follow the one about the guy that was featured in an article a couple years ago about heroin addict homeless people in San Francisco and his brother back in Ohio side came out who rescued him?

I did see something

about brought him back to Ohio. He went in tow. Rehab? Which you to rehab doesn't work, right? I mean, that's everybody tells me. I mean, basically, when you talk about rehab doesn't work. It works 5% of the time, So I guess it does work 5% of the time. That's not a good thing, right? So he went into rehab. He was clean for three months. Disappeared.

I mean, he actually they got him a job. He's with his family, had a cell phone, he disappeared. He took a bus back to San Francisco, started doing heroin again on L. A street, which but the problem was he'd been clean for three months, so you no longer had the tolerance. So he overdosed three times. According to the street, people had to be brought back with Narcan what is knocking that cataracts? Hope you had overdoses and had we brought back three times on the street because now they give it to everybody. Cops will have. Nor can all the addicts have narc.

And it's a shot that you're given to counter act. Ah, an overdose. And, um But last time he was alone, so they found him dead on. Illustrate. So here's a guy that what's he even doing here? To begin with? And but because he could get heroin because it's legal. Basically, it's legal to do heroin on the street in seven. Cisco is There's no law against it. People shooting up in front, everybody. Another log instead. No. What? What law is there against somebody shooting up heroin in front of? There is no history.

It's a misdemeanor

to present to possess heroin. Prove it. Prove what it is. She got somebody injecting the needle on the street, which we never used to

see. Yeah, I saw that Mother's Day with my wife. We never you would never see. You ever see this parked right outside

the rest? Because they can't be arrested. I mean, what are you gonna arrest him for? They need the guest. They need treatment. They need they need treatment. And now we're saying, Well, we're gonna have injection center So they will be doing in a public. They'll still be doing it in public because they can, because they don't care. So it's a combination of drug addiction, antisocial personality. Do they really actually think it through? No,

but they don't match. So I have. I've had such a such a ever evolving view off homelessness from when I was young and and was just told a very simplified in stupid idea of just that They need to get a job. And that was Ah, that was the refrain and and a Texas growing up And I look back and you just feel like that was so incomplete and ends and stupid then in my teens, feeling like, Okay, there's there is mental health at the base of so much of of the homelessness around, and we need to treat them into health aspect of it. And now we are staying and take that more seriously. The last 10 15 years, that has become much more part of the narrative. But then I would say now I'd say the last three or four years, and this is just continual volunteerism with with different organizations here in the city, including Cannon, Kip shot out to Cannon Kip. They're great.

Now it's him on the on the other side of it, it's it is. And it's just an ever just kind of a rabbit hole of complexity is a very complex problem. But the one thing that bothers me so much in this evolution and it doesn't even matter my standpoint on it, that's that's not the point of of me, me speaking right now. But the thing that bothers me so much is the misinformation of what's actually happening and that people can't talk openly about what is actually happening. I think there is. There is compassion as vice part of the equation where it's just no, we need to be compassionate to a extreme degree toe where there is no responsibility in the equation on the person that that has me of the knife pointed at someone at 9 a.m. or the person young defecating on the side of the street, which San Francisco has now formed a reputation in the last 45 years for globally it is. It's a structural problem.

Defecation is part of the heroin problem. Felix them and makes them defecated. And they don't they just they do it, really. It's the antisocial. It's the whole. It's a it's a

it's a It's not just that we're Leo.

It has absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with it all. We have toilets. The hair would make him go to the bathroom and make some defecating, and they just deal. I'll do in the street. I could shoot up in the street, all deaf kid in the street. There's no sanctions. There's no there's no reason

not to. Right? And just to finish that thought is it is down a rabbit hole of complexity. And it's something that I think the idea that it's just building more housing is about 10% of the conversation, and I see you rolling your eyes. I want to ask you your why, but it just to the point of this conversation, this is the most riel conversation with someone that has 36 years of actually day to day needing to deal with this this problem and living here your entire life. It's probably Maur for many people that are just coming for Sandra Single coming to San Francisco for two years, three years in tech and then moving. It's It's a very transient problem, but for you, I'm sure it's much more close to the heart. It's not just let's pick up and move, but it is. I feel like the conversation around it is now. I'm back to that point of this is so simplified and so stupid the way that we talk about it,

given my experience, volunteering at at Kannon Cape or living in the city for eight years, seeing the extent of the conversation of we need to build more housing, which is certainly part of the equation. But I would have thought it was part of the I would have thought it was 80% of the equation five years ago. Now I'm like, No, that's 10% of the equation after this conversation now, like maybe it's 8%. But why did you roll your eyes when when I said I

don't understand what the houses, maybe everybody that wants to be house, I believe has been housed?

Yeah,

I imagine I really

do think so. What would you say to someone that with Wood? I would counter that by saying San Francisco has gotten so expensive. It's pushing people into the street.

I don't know if that's true. I don't think if somebody has an income, they can live somewhere. They're gonna be able to live here. People are living on the street here, living on the street or because they can shoot up heroin and get heroin here. And there's no sanctions. If you were in Reno or another another state and you had heroin and you wanted to buy her when you couldn't do it as easily as you can hear, you couldn't shoot up in public, you would come here. I was recently parked in Stevenson Alley near Market Street, waiting for someone. The gangs come on, gang. The groups of heroin addicts in that alley. Oh, I have never seen anything like this.

It's way we call them. You say, Well, they're the zombies and the vampires where the whole vampire thing came from. But what is a vampire? Well, they look, they look like vampires and they act like vampires. They've got to get their blood fixed. I mean, that's what I think we're the whole. I think the vampire story came from opiate addiction. It's my feeling, but I know for sure because it's very similar and, um, but listen to them being able to be the fly on the wall,

listen to them, talk to each other and carry on about. Their goal is to get a fix and then get a fix and get a fix. There's a book I read years ago called It's So Good. Don't even try it once, which I think would give everybody a real understanding of heroin because it's been around forever. It's been run forever, and every time they trying to find something to get people off heroin like methadone is more addictive than heroin is manager with the newest one is, But heroin was supposed to hair when you know I was, um, the drug was supposed to get people off of morphine. Could we? People addicted to morphine in the 18 hundreds, so they've ended heroin as a cure for morphine addiction in the event of methadone has a cure for heroin addiction. Each one of those is more ridiculous than the prior drug, but no one here needs to get off here with anymore.

That's the thing. I mean, methods be methadone clinics and actually even seeing the people who go toe. I actually also had occasion to, uh, one of my Children was at a swimming pool in the baby district attending a match a meet, and I had to go there early in the morning to make sure things got said. I probably go. There is Ah, eight o'clock the morning there's a methadone center that's right down the street. The people that were coming there for their methadone I was in of Nisman from because of the south part of San Francisco Millbrae San Bruno, South San Francisco. All these people you would never know rejected the methadone. We're coming there for their does prior here when addicts have gotten off minute luckily. But this whole opiate addiction thing has become a huge problem in America. In the heroin is an offshoot of it,

E. I mean, we all talked about the opiate thing. It became worse years ago. It's they're supposed to try to get a handle on it now, but you know, the the opiate addiction leads to the heroin because they can't get the pills anymore because their prescriptions, right? By the way, have you heard the latest research on how people getting addicted to the pills in the first place? Now, wisdom teeth out. Mmm. That's the latest research that these doctors and I and I actually saw this. My son, as we some teeth out they gave him.

Ah, 25 Aqsa Koda. This is ridiculous. Where they've been interviewing heroin addicts who will go back and tell you I became addicted to opiates in whatever state. I'm from Indiana, Ohio, Virginia, where they became addicted opiates. Could all of your jet them became addicted to heroin came to San Francisco because it could be bought on the street? There's no sanctions

for the Yeah, I I think the

I don't sound like a

rant Know that well, but you need all these things were related, right? Well, that's and I think that that is the point of this conversation. And my big cut off like soap box is that around. This topic is no longer trying to come up with just with a personal point of leverage that I could help solve the problem. It's actually just try to get my hands around the problem. And it has many conversations, conversations as I can with people around the actual problem. Just as a community member here, volunteering cannon Kip is a phenomenal place toe. Just be a fly on a wall. And here the actual experts talk about it, actually get to know homeless individuals and gets another stories, and that's helpful as well. But it's still in this kind of exploration,

moated. My biggest soap boxes just have an honest conversation about it, and we, as as citizens within San Francisco, do not have an honest conversation about it. And it is. It is so tightly locked down and two, this is the one narrative that will public publicly talk about to build more housing, right, because there's so many commercial interests to build more houses. It's very little, at least the people building housing. They're not thinking about the homelessness issue, but they're certainly using as a leverage point to to get the permits to build more housing. Like I said, it feel like it's 10% of the equation and we're not talking about the mental health aspect nearly enough,

but we're also not talking about the personal responsibility aspect through nearly enough, and that's an aspect that it's It's been a pendulum shift from when I was 89 10 and thought that that was It's not. That was too simplified into stupid of, ah, just, you know, just a refrain of they need. They need to work harder. Just that didn't feel right. Now 33 in the pendulum has swung hopefully in a more complex way, but it is swung towards. There's a whole lot of of personal responsibility that is, that belongs in this conversation as well. A structural responsibility. But it is a complex equation that requires both

if they do, I mean Ah, I initially was thinking that's he sees this having people. They have a centers where they can inject drugs, sets a bad tone for society and for the future for kids. But the more I thought about it, fine. Build your injection centers. Make it a crime to inject in public, but they won't do that. These will be voluntary centers, and the people will still be injecting on the street because they can.

Yeah, it feels like there's a partial solutions, whether it's Prop. 47 or where there is, uh, injection center. Okay, well, I don't want to spend too much time on that, but it's but that is, it's a topic that I'm just trying to educate myself on continually. So thank you for for sharing your perspective, which I think is is just It's a unique one, given your experience, what is going back to the police work and just the difference between the above the line version of that blow line version of of Police Work? What is my? But I can tell you the above line version is,

is the guy running into the stadium with the badge and the gun that you see in movies? What is the bolo line version? After 36 years, when you think about your work as as an officer as a piece peace officer? What comes to mind for those 36 years and how you spent those hours?

Well, there was a lot of excitement and a lot of good good work, a lot of paperwork, but then to go with the good work, there's a lot of things that you didn't want to have to do, didn't want to do what you're talking about the running with the badge. I'll never forget a friend of mine telling me that, Um and he's a very sharp guy who I had some very big jobs before he decided to go into law enforcement. He told me that he was walking the beat on Ah Broadway in San Francisco one night and there's a shooting that went down and the suspects got into a car and fled, and he commandeered a taxicab, which we are allowed to d'oh the teacher that you can do that. It's a very, you know, it's kind of a cool thing.

Only taxi cabs are.

We continually commandeer any car and then the cops and they recently, Actually, if you read the paper when there was the shooting at the ups down here, there were some officers appear on Castro Street who wanted to go to in their car, wouldn't start. So they committed a woman's car after drive them there,

had her drive them, and I didn't know that that was really Yeah,

well, so this guy commandeered a cab and he told me, um, you know that he got in the cab and he got on the radio and you told the cab driver Follow that. You know, like in the movies, Follow that car and they didn't The suspects didn't notice. They're not driving crazy. They're just driving. And it's telling me that Aziz started following the car and he's calling it out on the radio that he turns. He looks behind him and he said, to watch the sea of red lights light up behind him is Herb is trying to catch up to him, which is very exciting, very exciting, kind of a moving kind of things, right? Cool.

They caught the bad guys. You know, that kind of self. It is very exciting, very fun, well,

and round out there by the line version. The other things that I think about just in all candor is a lot of cops are assholes, too. So I think about that version where it's just in San Francisco, just there. And maybe it's just complete human psychology where you have a few interactions and then you have confirmation bias after that. But just really gruff, not they. They look nothing like peace officers, and they, they feel like Are they just They look like I don't know soldiers and make you feel like they're running this this this town like soldiers and whether it's ah, you know, I don't know, a street festival or something that just don't look very. Let's put it nicely. They don't bury, look very kind the other.

The other thing that I think about a bubble inversion is the police brutality of the last several years and and has likely always existed, but certainly the last several years. The video footage of being so obvious in flagrante for for the world to see things like YouTube. So that's the above line version. Feel free day to go through those address. But the excitement aspect, Yes, that is that is obviously an aspect of the above line version of just exciting police work. But I wonder is, Are there officers that also create excitement or the as an adrenaline junkie that just add to the drama?

Probably. But you need to look at the

and I plead complete ignorance on although the

overall range. So you're talking about 2000 cops in San Francisco just in San Francisco, and so you had a bad experience with one arm or

maybe four over the last eight years

that were gruff with you. Um, so I like to look at it as if you take a cross section of 2000 teachers. I mean, I've had some teachers that were complete psychos. That's true bad by the look of all teachers, is assholes. I think I think there's a good percentage of probably percentages, cops or even more. I guess they choose to go on that pretty

perfect the extent of the danger. But it's because a cop does have a gun,

you know. And so But they, you know, to tell you the truth, being I work with these people. It's a nice group of people that I've ever worked with in my life, and I worked the other jobs. It's just especially when they came in. They tend to have very good hearts, be very nice, but you take a cross section of any group, you're going to get a certain number of people that have problems. Plus, the job changes people I've thought about. Should people fear the fear of the police and and not getting back to your, uh, the unnecessary violence that we've seen,

sometimes some violence is necessary in the job, which I really didn't realize how violent the job was to get into it. I never I think I have been in one little fight before I got the police department, I hadn't I didn't realize how much we're gonna have to fight and not only fight. But I realized early on that, um if you charge somebody with resisting arrest and or battery on police officer, they were If you booked him for that, they were never charged by the D A. And this is going back forever, even. And even now, the d a. That this doesn't charge them.

So I think Wait. Well, how? What? They just don't so view. If you punch a police officer as they're arresting you,

you will not be charged with that. You'll be charged with. The crime was that began the arrest, But you will be charged battery on a police officer. Well, let's hope it's very seriously hurt because they just don't David. They choose not to do it. They feel it's just like overcharging. So I think that this created a lot of police brutality. This this and it's not just San Francisco. This created it where I thought there's somebody resisted arrest that ended. They'd actually be penalized for that. Then I realized early on that that never ever happened maybe one out of 100 times. It was an egregious case. They would be charged with that. And then maybe even I didn't found guilty. So I think and I love that still true now I think that may have led to somebody's police brutality

in the in the past because they just they would realize

you realize that this guy hurt you and there'll be no comeuppance for

him or the person and and or the person realizes. The last time I heard a police

officer, there was nothing happened. So why should I resist? Arrest me if you look at the guys that you look a TTE. If you'll read these stories about guys that are fleeing the police and they kill somebody with their car, then you find out they do this three other times and were arrested and nothing ever happened to them for things on the front of police. You used me, missed me, or they finally made it. If you fled from the police in a car in any egregious manner became a felony. Guess about 10 years ago and to open up. Until then. It was on a misdemeanor, which misdemeanors Air never charged. Just so you know, they're just they're never charged. If they are charged, it's trying because they want to make the ideal. Don't get some metal

healthy. What happens? What do you mean? If they take

away? They just They're not charged by the D A. So that they're dropped. They just paid. No, they just dropped because the charges dropped.

Why that none of this makes sense. Why would they will be dropped? Miss Manners, Mr

Winners, Because there's no it doesn't be in the interest called in the interest of justice. That's what That's how it's cleared. They just don't charge.

Okay, so keep going. And so they're so

immortality. But we've seen. I mean, I have seen things, and I've talked to my friends about some of the things we've seen. Where, Yeah, that's pretty bad. I mean, I've never seen that one. Where the guy does the traffic stop. He walks up to a guy, and there's a conversation which seems reasonable. Conversation goes back to his car. The guy takes off running, chasing, he shoots him.

What do you say? No, I mean, why would you chase me then? Shoot him like that. Mean we would never everyone never I never saw anything like that. Never heard anything, So that was pretty bad. Yeah, that was we couldn't figure that one out. But, um, other things happen where you realize the cops more really at fault. But they're still pillow pilloried. And I think about that poor young cop victim. He was in a chase,

and he only had to give it in. He was still in training. Stop the street that have been in on the street a month. I don't remember this. It was about a year and 1/2 ago. And that was they were chasing a robbery vehicle. In the end of the day. The baby district in San Francisco on the suspect passenger got out rather than run away. He ran towards the police car. Everyone, if you saw the video, it is the cop. Is this poor young cops getting out and the guys running towards him? He apparently got scared and shot him through his window and killed the guy and Our whole thing is we're Why's he running towards the police? Meaning? Because the guy in the kids said I thought he had a gun.

It was a robbery that had pulled. I mean, it's one of these terrible, tragic accidents that we have Those there are things I had gone to police shootings where the cop got scared, John. The guy there is gonna be that's gonna happen in our society needs to realize that. And you can't try somebody for that. You can. But it's an accident. And they got scared and they shot the person.

Is it an accident? If you get scared and you do something, I mean e. We thought it was gonna take the same. It seems like they could take the same. I got scared.

They're not given the job to take somebody because you used on something bad. What do you do? Uh, we had a case. I mean,

I am, but I mean, you couldn't A criminal couldn't make that defense.

Sure can. You can. You can eat it, make a defense you want What would you What would you do? A police officer who was on a building search on the burglary of a home. And he's searching the house, his partners in there. And he opened the closet door. He's got his gun, this gate open the closet door. And the burglar who's hiding there scares him. Go like this, and he shoots and kills him. What do you What do you do to the cop?

Well, that I could see that in an extreme example, but well, that's happened. But what about I'm just saying, What if that happened? Getting scared and having the old? Yeah, A result of someone dying that is here. And how about startled? Okay. Startled. But I see that tragic side of that, right? I'm just saying a thief couldn't say I got scared. And so it seems a GTO, but it wouldn't be a very wouldn't be a very, you know, robust.

What the thief put themselves in that position is a thief where the cops put themself. That position by society. I mean, we remember a case of station worked out where there was a building, same kind of building search, burglary during the day. Cop open the closet. It was a swinging shirt and he shot the shirt well of course, we gave her bad time about it. Right? But these things happen. They're goingto happen. It's a continuum.

Did you ever see aggressive police brutality? You're 36 years

aggressive police brutality. I saw police officers win a fight quickly that had already started. I mean, we're not getting. The thing is, we're not getting paid to fight with people. People seem to think we are. We're not. I'm not getting paid to fight. They're supposed to, um, acquiesce to my arrest. I don't get paid to fight people. I don't want to fight me, buddy.

How often would you have to lie

when I was in certain stations? A lot. You're fighting

a lot. And what is a lot, maybe twice a week. What? What kind of fight? Fight. Like what? Walk me through this. Most

rest of our fighting is wrestling. I'm not in the worst to be. If you got involved somebody who was a boxer, you're gonna lose. So we this way they give us weapons. They give us your the pepper spray's pretty much from a distance because that gets on YouTube and on all the other cops. I mean, they used to give cops, Little Billy and little days and give little Billy clubs to be people. You hit him, Talk him out. Headshots don't even work for you. Well, I mean, they give you now the 26 inch baton. You have to fight with people. It's not fun,

and you can't lose. So you lose, they get your gun and they kill you so you can't lose the fight. And that's something people need to understand that the cops have to win. And a lot of times, the win at all costs in the wind real early.

Okay, Feel free to get

back to please prove brutality. I think things that characterized first of all, a lot of the videos or turn Come on after the fights, actually what he started, Um, when I think paid to fight with people and I would see a lot of we do a lot of wrestling. I was wrestling, twisting the arm behind the eyes, back, throwing on the ground. It looks bad, but you got to get the guy in custody, you know? I mean, I thought about the times that we have to You have to use force you're supposed to use force against people. People don't want to see it. You know that?

Um, the TV show cops you ever watch? It isn't. Do you like it? Mmm.

Definitely thought it was interesting. Yeah,

um, they wouldn't allow it to be filmed in San Francisco, because in San Francisco, the people want police work done. They want to see it. They don't see it. And it's not pretty. I I say police work is like making sausage. Everybody likes the sausage. Didn't you always say that sausage You like sausage? You want to eat it? You don't want to scare sausages. Made it right. It's a very bad process. It's just disgusting. But you want to eat it. You want the results from it.

That's how I look at police work. Sometimes people don't want to see how it's done. Days 13 threes result. So they never lost cause be filmed here because they don't. People don't want to see guys getting in kitten mean suspects get hurt because when you grab somebody who's fighting with you and you throw them to the ground Atlanta top of them, they get hurt. You don't. But that's what you're training

to. Dio using your words. You cannot

lose the fight and you can't lose the fight. What is worse? And I would I would. And I would tell my son we were talking about my son and night and we talk about police work and police brutality. You know, the one in Ferguson. My son had a long talk about that. And the guy and my son said, Dad, will that guy he brought fist to a gunfight.

You know, he thinks he's gonna knock that cop out. Well, no, he's not. You know you if you fight it first. Well, should people

fear the police been asking you?

My gut says no and I don't know. And I think it's just the operative term is Should people certain people should, you know, when you

grew up, did you fear

the police? No, I don't think I feel him when I was a child, but it's it's kind of like you shouldn't fear the exterminator, but certain aspects of their job, you know, the cockroach should. So when you say, should people fear, perhaps I don't feel like people as a general term should fear peace officers.

If he did something wrong, Should you fear

the police? Yeah, And that's why I say the operative word there being people should people fear

please up. So when I was when I was 15 years old and a friend of mine and I were walking by a police car and he spit on the police car Should I fear the police? Yeah. Your friend shouted it. We'll know we, but I did is a and I'm I'm so lucky that the cops didn't see it because we both would have been arrested. May be hurt. I'm telling you so. I mean, I later became a cop, but and I didn't fear the police. If I we're just doing my thing, you know, being myself. But when my friend did something wrong, I fear the police. I still fear what happened that day. I mean,

I do. Yeah, well, because I think about what I would have done. I mean, what would you have done

with those kids? I would've grabbed him. You know what? I would have been a foot chase. I would've grabbed

him. And then

what way wouldn't rest until I have to think about it, see what their attitude was

And why we're with the emotion of oak are what emotions would would be evoked in that situation. Why would you feel like I need to chase the I already know I'm not gonna arrest him, but I'm gonna chase him down. Well,

it's a thing about you can't allow that kind of behavior to happen.

And again, this is out of complete ignorance. But what about attack? Of taking the tack of just saying

Hey, you know what?

You know I did. Ugo, come here a sec are, and they're gonna come here. Okay, What about just saying Did Our job is already

so hard, right? So you would have a talk, see what their attitude was. You're right. So everything have to play by ear or

just saying just, like, just kind of just showing. Look, dudes, our job is so damn hard as it is. Why do you have to do

that? Because he's gotta put my cousin Connie. Friend had a problem with the four e.

No, no, I'm saying right. Wait, what about that on? And that could buy idiotic. And that's for which would here, But why would

the rest of anyway, you're gonna have a talk with him. You have a talk with him,

right? But and I think that there is so it is there the ripple effects of chasing the kids down, the kids are provoking. Almost just it's any exercise to see. What are these cops like? What are cops like? My first interaction with the cop as a 16 year old is them chasing me down the street and then tackling me to the concrete. I think there is. There is a negative ripple effect. And that and that. Did you like what you know? Now let him go, but literally get out of the car and say no big cops going in the car. Okay? Well, I'm just saying there was going to be a ripple effect for those 2 16 year olds that are chase running down the street. And I don't know what your friend got tackled

to know We'd never have been nothing. But we never You never got

caught. We don't know. I know, but I'm just saying in that hypothetical of what you would have done, I my mind just jumps to the fact that that story wouldn't have ended there. Then you have this this precedent, this interaction with with the 16 year old that goes on to be a 35 year old that has this viewpoint for 2020 years that cops are assholes. And it was a idiotic 16 year old provoking them toe to form that opinion, but would still become

the opinion. But just what you're going by what you said to you said that some parts of society should fear the police. Okay,

what are some of the other belittling versions of just that job in those 36 years that come to mind? You had no l Let's go over to you that you had no idea that you would say that that would be part of your day to day when you are

first signing up way. Talk about this literally, or is we Didn't we talked about this lot sometimes, um, we get called a lot of death cases, I think cops. I had no idea how much there was in which we were getting called. And it has a very negative effect on you. Psychologically, there really had been there been some research done about 15 years ago into the effects of death on death calls on law enforcement. But then it kind of went away. They said, Yes, it's bad. Uh, that's what we have. A peer counseling program.

We have critical incident, these kind of things. But basically, over time they found that this is a very problematic area of law enforcement. Working death. Well, we're called, of course. Well, you expect we're going to call the violent deaths, which we d'oh when you kind of expect that. But we're called all the other death cases, too. We're called all the ones or someone dies in there in the house and you got to go there, figure out if it's a suspicious death. If it's not,

you just have to wait for medical Examiner and the family. He's a medical examiner, and you don't usually forget him, and they're all the time. They're stuck use. You're stuck with it. And what is all the time? I mean, one of depends no depends. And, well, some people are black cats. I wasn't one, but some people get a lot more death calls and others. It was funny because I worked a shift for a while. I would too,

2 to 12 to 15 until 12 at night. I got more death calls on that shift, and I finally figured it out and was was the guy wouldn't show up for work for a woman and then at lunch of it say, Hey, we're someone. So, yeah, she didn't show up. They called the house to be no answer. So about 1 15 after lunch, of course, have to eat, then about 1 15 So you say You know what we're gonna call the police are gonna go do a welfare check on this person. So they call the police about 1 15 1 30 the call would hang because was busy so that at two o'clock and come to work, I get stuck with the call. So I figured out that I figured he took a couple years for you and figure out this is what was going on because I couldn't figure out why I was getting all these death case calls.

So it's it's how frequent were they? I know, probably, uh, twice or three times a month.

Well, that's a lot. How many death calls over over?

Hard to say. It's just a lot, and it really affects you. It's not pretty. I had one person that actually died in bed of, Ah, drug overdose was so suicide drug overdose. I had one where, though it wasn't like bad at all, and then talking the medical examiner there telling me, Well, this is rare because the only people thrash. Apparently I didn't know that the fall off the bed now it's usually not. I mean, the ones I saw were not pretty easily when I have resolved. It wasn't like bad, but no,

that's usually they're not. It's not good, and they're not found for a long time. So it is a very, very difficult piece of police work. I'd I had a very smart woman that I worked with who was in for years, and she characterized It is some underwear. Apparently, there was she done some reading, uh, when she was in her master's program about sin eaters, and apparently it's ah, in myth mythology. Or it's something where it's a group that is responsible for devouring the sins of ah society. And, um,

she felt that this was the role of both of the police. We were like we were the people that would have to take in the crap that society had. This was part of it was dealing with death. I mean, I I wouldn't call

once talked about how this song said just made out and yeah,

I was once with this woman means week we got there, it was, you know, really what the call came in we got there. This is a woman running out of the apartment yelling, My mother's not well, and she took off running.

When we go in there and

this woman is dead, she's been dead for a long, long time, and we're in the position she was in was not a good position, was horrible. Clears the family, doesn't want to deal with it We get stuck with. So yeah, we get that a lot.

It's definitely an aspect I've never thought

Oh, yeah? And then when the cops together and they start drinking, they start months, we'll start telling dead body stories because it's on, of course, is the, you know, step ups. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I got a better one. This guy's kind of better one. So we had some valuable is doing its small departments.

Did that even cross your mind

one. Never forever. Never. You knew anything about it.

And, uh, the average person probably sees. Maybe one, that verse in

their life may be in America, and we deal with it all the time. How did it? That's the ones that are not violent being the ones that are violent. Death three, of course, but could not find the ones are just even back

to How would it mess with you psychologically?

Yeah, well, you realize really early good life is a very thin thread. So makes you really value life, but also makes you not plan much for the future. A lot. So, like, you know, can I afford that to buy that? Whatever item it is? Well, you know what? I could buy it now and enjoy it. Or maybe in about an hour, look like that guy I just saw yesterday, I think I'll buy that. Really? Oh, yeah.

What are some of the ways that it's taken its toll on piers of yours?

Well, I was really So cops tend to be adrenaline junkies, so they get addicted to the adrenaline rush, and that's not good for you. They found that out. Seems for firefighters with. Although since they stopped using the bells they've gotten better because the belles would make him get adrenaline surge today that they have the tones by this s o you know, the old days the bells go off for the firehouse, right? Does it jump up and they go to the fire So they're all dying like when they get to be 55 58 years old from heart issues. So the bells went away. Those are doing tones, so there goes, Do do But the first tone is very low So it's like a calming thing and then it goes up So they be that there's been some psychological research in this kind of stuff.

Okay, John So Justo to go over and and recap the questions that I had sent your way of the three stories that have that have shaped who you became as a police officer. You mentioned one of them about your your parents and and and growing up. If you could change one thing about about just the world of police work and or the city of San Francisco that you I have lived your entire life. Where

what would you change well, the police. But I think people just need to be more understanding a police officer. I'm not being an apologist for the police, but and even though it's a tough job, we don't know. A lot of times it's going out when things first start and so and everybody's got a bad day sometimes. So I think just being, really, you know, trying to be a little patient with the police. Like I said, Um, when I first went into the Police Department, I didn't know what I was getting myself into. I didn't know what they were like. Cops were like and I didn't know,

really. For instance, over the years you would read about people hanging themselves in the police stations, and I always wondered if the cops were hanging these people. If they're killing him, you have to think of that right, And I decided early on that if it was true, I was gonna get out, I was gonna stay on this thing. Well, it's not true. It's funny because I wondered about that, and yet when I was in training, I booked a guy who had some traffic warrants. He had, like very bad driver can maybe 5000 hours with the traffic warrants you have.

Drunk driving is one of the things, but he hung himself in the in the cell with his shoe laces. Could we take the belt? We take that kind of stuff. We take the string on the sweatshirts, hung himself with his shoe laces. And of course, I got a bad time. Tell me a rookie you didn't take your shoe laces. We don't tell you people shoe laces.

We know. It's like, you know we don't ever do it. And here's a guy that so here

I was thinking of you. These guys are bad people in there hanging people. One of my prisoners hangs himself with his shoelaces over nothing. So I found instead that it was one of the nicest groups of people and they get a Yes, I might be able to get a bad rap. Do you really? D'oh! You know, this was supposed to host racism and sexism in the police department. I'm not lying. I'm telling you, it doesn't. It's not true. Everybody works together as peers. You have black partners, you have female partners. No one ever like,

you know, uses bad language behind someone's back, as opposed to other places that I worked. Where they talk about people, I never found that. It's just

sound like an apologist. Justin knows

they just had such a bad rap constantly, and ah, it's that's it's kind of problematic. I think it wears on people.

Well, I think it's Ah, certainly, in contrast, or do what you're told isn't right conference do what you're told, but also, in addition to the point you made about Sin Eater is a tough job. It is a pretty unimaginably tough job from just hearing this conversation and an aspect that I had never really thought about, which is the amount of death one would see in addition to three times a night of adrenaline of calls that you've got to go respond to,

plus how you deal with it. So, um, you can't use do you try? And, of course, what's the best? The best defense distresses humor, correct or laughter. While he can't do that, there was a huge case where over in Bernal Heights, where some guy guy murdered and, um so they're waiting for the medical examiner and the cops were making some humor, nothing really that bad, but actually laughed a couple times. Well, the neighbor next door taped it.

They almost lost their jobs as opposed to, you know, just trying to deal with this thing from, you know, So we So now we go that we go to any kind of call? Very. And you're like, you know, we're thinking about you. Herbie's there, say a word. You're criticized Road. You say what you think it's it's tough and your junior trying just to deal with stress lob

just around out of it. The two questions that I had shot your way beforehand, the three stories. So we touched on one of them. Maybe we touched it. Maybe

we actually touch. The one was being the Peacekeeper. My family. Um, next one was my father hiring comics and actually realized that they were like people. We just made poor choices, sometimes temporarily. Sometimes this was part of the life. Was there poor choices? For whatever reason, I remember one day I was addicted to Cody, which was at that time people actually break into pharmacies to steel coating concert. He end up robbing banks to support a coding cough syrup habit, which is related to Opiate, gets an opiate. So it's real. It's all related,

um, realizing they were just regular people who are having bad times. But these guys actually got out of prison and try to get a job so you wouldn't characterize them as antisocial either. Not being the last one was hanging out when I was a kid with cops the worst, like on just chatting him up.

Okay, so we did cover, The more was and what is a topic last question for you. What is the topic that you thought a lot about as and or think a lot about, as as a police officer and in your career. But you rarely ever got a chance to talk about, you know, professionally. Socially

glad we covered most of them. But early on, when I was working busy station midnights, I really started thinking to myself, I was shocked by Manzi inhumanity to man. And it's that sounds very vague, A little shocking to me, the violence, the inhumanity. Not seeing the person is another human being because they teach us the academy to look at everybody you know, they're human beings. They just took a different path, but just a human being. And I don't know any cops that could, really you know, it's not us. It's that too much finesse them thing too much is opposed to.

There are people that are extremely violent and in inhumane other humans for no reason at all. And you run into these people occasionally, and the inhumanity to other people is just It's shocking. And it's something that the regular public doesn't even know isn't understand Drink. I understand you see them. We once in a while you think it's just that that's a movie. No, it's not. There are people. The inhumanity of people down there humans was quite shocking to me.

I think that that is, that plays into this the disparity between the above the line version and the below the line version and so many aspects of the conversation today. But it's certainly an aspect of I think it's hard for people to believe evil exists if you just never see that level of inhumanity. Maybe you see it once in your life, but just in talking with you, I can imagine if you're a police officer and you see it daily weekly monthly multiple times a year. It's It's very, very different view of humanity than the average person. It's true. That's a lot to deal with. Well, John, thank you so much for the time. I feel like I learned a lot. I'll get to call you by your real name right as we turn this off, but I really appreciate you taking the time to chat with to chat with us about this,

Like hoping Ramble too much

now as 5% of what we touch on I had heard before, so I'm really glad you took the time to come on in the park cast. Thank you. Thank you, friends and listeners. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want to hear more of these types of conversations, go over to your favorite podcast app and it's subscribe for Leave us a review. Better bad love hearing from people that that appreciate this type of conversation. Want more of it? You can also follow us on Twitter at Go below the line. We'll see in our Twitter bio our email address for you. Shoot us a note on any suggestions of guests or topics that we should cover. We read every single one. So thank you for those that have already sent those in. That's it for us today. We will see you next. Time on below the line below The line is brought to you by straight up podcasts.