all right friends and listeners. Today's episode is with my good friend Katherine McCarron. She is a San Francisco based fashion designer and founder of her namesake ethical Kashmir line that is featured in stores from Bergdorf Goodman, Toe, Neiman Marcus, Toe Lord and Taylor. From New York to Korea, we talk about everything from being featured in New York Fashion Week at age 25 to the cover of Cosmo magazine. She is just as humble as she is amazing and really excited to have the honor to chat with her today. You can go to Catherine McCarron dot com work. Check her out on Instagram to check out her work and see the above line version, and you can sit right there to hear the other side. This is below the line. Live came back in those years. Can you forks in the house? You forks for humanity? No.

Humankind. Sorry. Bottles a little bigger, then. Ah, yeah, Humankind. What do you think about this? Can

I'm into it? It's, um, flowery. Um, gonna taste like red one without the alcohol.

Yeah, it's pretty. It's a very interesting taste. And, um, I had it on the podcast before It's a friend's company out of New York can K i n. And it's, um, kind of makes you feel a little tingly. Rises. I feel euphoric. Yeah, we've been drinking for the last few minutes, and it actually really does

know alcohol.

Well, there's no alcohol in it, so you can drive. Okay. You put this in a water bottle, just cruise cruise with it. All right? Came at Thank you so much for coming on Bloodline.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm honored to be here. Excited to get, uh, get going.

Well, we we've been friends for a few years, so it's Ah, it's really fun to have friends on here. Especially one is accomplishing badass as yourself. And it is, uh, yeah, we're about to get into, but real quick. You were mentioning that you just went through the David Goggins book. Who's Who's David Goggins for

listeners. Yeah. David Goggins is arguably, like, the baddest ass on earth, like, really legit. Like, um, I think a lot of people kind of know where he is right now, But maybe maybe that's just in my group. So, um, he's an ultra marathon man, which means that you know, he's run like 100 miles races and even 1 200 mile race, which is just insane.

Yeah, um, he's like he's a Navy seal, Um, and like just so many accolades that are so oh, hey, has the the World Guinness Book of Records for pull ups like 4300 pull ups or something in a day? Um, he's just he's a maniac. And he's actually from Indiana, which I'm from Indiana, so it feels it feels cool. Um, he's He's really, really inspiring and really intense, but his book is really, really, and having

my wife is reading it right now. It's well listening to the audio book, and I've heard that it's a really cool audio because it makes it like there's the narration. But then there's kind of interview. Most podcasts mixed in with the audio book,

totally. Actually, Janey, your wife was the one who encouraged me to get the audio book. I was going to get just the book. Um, and she was like, No, you should get the audio book. So anyway, and I whipped through it. You know, I'm training for a marathon, so yeah, so I whipped through it in like, um, in like,

three or four days. It's like it's like, 14 hours. Oh, yeah, it's a long, but it's really cool. It is. It is similar to this. It is like, um, this guy Adam, like, you know, jumps back on and is he's the narrator, and R is not called the narrator.

The guy who reads the book, I guess, And then he also like interviews and then David Goggins is like telling some really, really, really stories. Um, that just are really below the line.

Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, he liked lives below the line is the lead line. I've seen some interviews. I haven't read the book, but I've seen some interviews online, and that guy's just he's He is the kind of hero like we we need right now, like he could make every excuse in the book and refuses to and and just the life that he has built for himself. It's just nothing was handed his way. No, and every step of the way could have. I just said, you know, it's something is pushing back a wave, and he's like, No, I'm gonna push back on away from here. What it is

every time. Yeah,

yeah. It's what were some of the things that you took from the book? That really from this historic is that you have only seen a few long form interviews, like

on podcasts. Yeah. Joe Rogan. He does a bunch on the, um, no, you should read the book. I mean, you're not read. You should listen. The audio book, you'll you'll really love it. Um, he's just, um Well, I was mentioning one before about the cookie jar. Well,

he has to two things that I really liked. But I mean, so many things. He's just such a pusher. Like, you know, I'm all but I'll be running like, 10 miles and I'll be like, Oh, God, like, you know, I'll get perspective because I'm, like, here he is telling me he's, you know,

on mile 98 you know, like, I could do this like he's not, you know, like this. Uh, God, he's just a human being. And he's, like, kind of showing carving the way for everyone to do it. So it kind of gave me, um, motivation to run my 10 miles or whatever, but, um anyway,

there's this thing called the cookie jar. And, um, it's like a jar filled with cookies, which are your like accomplishments like something you really proud of. And every time you're really, really proud of something that you know, whether it's like quitting smoking or like not eating that cookie that you really, really want, or something silly or like something really big. You put like this like imaginary cooking the cookie jar. And then when you do have to do something that you don't want to do that super challenging, you pull out one cookie and say, Look, I did this so I can do the next

thing Core. Yeah, is it's a good visualization, yet gets more that can, uh, I only poured a little bit. Yeah, I didn't know if you're gonna like it. The, um that your guests you're mentioned and I think he he ran like I think I remember hearing he ran eight, um, eight ultramarathons like back to back weeks in a row or something like

that. Just in any his his incredibly impressive. Like he was like he ran and he ran 100 miles before he even ran a marathon Yeah, and then Yeah.

And he, uh Well, well, well. Let listeners just go listen to the the audiobook or by the book in a sec. But I I remember kind of thinking like, Oh, well, how impressive can this impressive guy being? And it's just, um he I think he also have like it. I could be wrong. It's but sickle cell anemia or something.

He did it. He had the trade, okay, He didn't have it, But he had, like, he was. I don't know exactly what.

So like it and something else. Um, I can remember some other

ho. He had a hold on. He had a heart.

So, like, there's nothing. There was nothing like, you know, special about There's no privileged place

in which he was £200. Like from Indiana, Like, just like, you know, nothing. Not from like, Beverly Hills are not like, you know, no, nothing was handed to him, and he just accomplished so much. So

yeah, I was, uh Okay, well, I'm gonna move. I'm gonna listen to the audio book now. So So do you Have you had to go to that kind of mental place with the cookie jar in your in your running or training for the marathon?

Yeah. I mean, I'm not, um, naturally an athlete, you know, And, um, I want to run it and a good pace as well. I don't want

to just what is a good I've never heard a

man now in front of me on the spot, but I have to say it now because I'm But I do want to run in under four hours, which is which is good, which is less than a nine minute mile throughout. So it's It's definitely not elite or anything like that, but it's It's an accomplished time. Um, I don't know if I'm gonna do it. I'm just saying it now, and you know, if it doesn't happen doesn't happen. That's fine. But, um, but so I really do have to go to the cookie jar for a lot of this because I know my brother and sister are actually naturally athletic. They were. They won state championships for swimming and everything that I was always kind of,

you know, the swimmer that, um, they collapse, you know, because, like, out is the last one. They were like, Yeah, you know what? She's cute, but I'm so but ah, you know. So I I do have to pull from some things. And it's not an athletic,

um, poll that I have to pull from it. It's something in my career, and it was I got opportunity to compete for New York Fashion Week. Um, in school early on, Uh, it's this giant, um, competition that, uh, you know, like New York Fashion Week. I'm sure listeners know, but if you don't like, it's one of the biggest things you can do in fashion.

You know, Marc Jacobs shows like Ralph Lauren like Donna, Karen, like all the greats. And it's just such a um

And how old were you when you got toe show?

Well, I was competing at, like, 22 I won. I got to show it 25.

Wow. Okay, 25. What was going through? Your What was going through your head when that when that happened? Was it just super surreal?

Oh, my God. I mean, it was it was a present uphill battle to even get in. Like like not only like talent wise, but like in my own brain. Like am I good enough. Sort of like drama going on in there, you know? You know, I was from Indiana, and I didn't have any connections and fashion, and I was the underdog at school and blah, blah, blah, And But anyway, I fought

really that blah, blah, blah. Is that then, you know, that's the below the line version that yeah, that is so easily pushed aside in storytelling. But tell me a little bit more about Okay, so it grew up in Indiana and and leading up to, you know, years or your whole life to this New York fashion week. But what got you interested in fashion?

Okay. Sure. Um I mean, um, you know, I was born ah, like, 20 minutes outside Chicago. So not, like, really like deep Indiana, but definitely Midwest. And, you know, I love where I'm from and and everything, but there's not, like a huge,

um, like fashion community, you know? And I didn't know anybody, but I was I was a shopper, you know, I was really a shopper, and it's a really different thing than being a designer, which I I didn't think it wasthe when I first started. Um, design school. You know, I thought, you know Oh, I have Louisville thons. And I have,

you know, Gucci glasses and I you know, I could definitely design a collection, but my ascot hand it to me, You know, when I actually, um, tried to attempt that, you know, and my teachers were pretty brutal and, um, relentless with humiliating me in front of glass. Yeah. And, um

too much. So, um,

looking back. No, I think it was an okay amount, but it was pretty brutal. And there were a couple teachers that Ah, you know, those people that that they feel they can tell you what you're supposed to do in life. And they say, You know, don't do it. Take a step back. I think those are the worst type of people. Like you can't do it. Not your bad. Keep going, but drop out. Really? Yes. A couple of those at a couple

of those that would they say, Just like

the dropout. You're not good enough Like you shouldn't be a designer.

What? Me through? Like the specifics of one of those conversations that you remember?

Yeah, I was I was probably like, you know, so my first year. I was definitely the underdog there was. It was graduate schools. I was 22 and Ah. Ah. Lot of a lot of my classmates had gone toe undergrad in design school, you know? So they already knew what they were doing. I kind of got in. What do you say? Like on a hope and a prayer. Like unlike a handshake. I like I, like,

slid into the program and kind of begged my way, and I got in. But, um, that was a ce faras that got me. And, um, I would we all have these reviews, and we would show our collection on

DDE. Where was it? Where was

this guy at school? Oh, in San Francisco at the county of art. Yeah. And, uh,

here's a great school.

It is a great school. It is a great school. And, um and you know, the director Simon Glasses, one of my mentors, Like, to this day. And I'm so thankful for him. Um, so he's actually the one who made the the decision to get ah, have me being fashion week. So, um, you know, but early on, Yeah.

Was, like, 22 I would show we would all have to present these projects or whatever and, you know, mine just looked like silly. They were just silly because I like like I said, I was. I shopped a lot and I definitely knew fashion. I definitely knew all the designers and everything like that, But did I know howto like put it together in a cohesive collection like, No, that's why a lot of people who, um, look really good, you know, in the world who try to make a fashion line sometimes don't succeed cause it's it's a whole thing.

We have to train. You can't just like fashion and make a a line. So, yeah, I would like it would get to me and our, you know, there were really talented people in my class is, like, really, really either, like amazing illustrators. And I was I was definitely the youngest want, you know, like hypothetically. Yes, that you can start Grad school 22 but like most people started like minimum 25 there's some 30 somethings in there.

So I was like, the youngest one, and like the worst one, you know, there was, like, maybe me and like one other.

But like, how did the judge How do you judge good and bad and, um, kind of academic sense of fashion?

Yeah, it's like it has to be cohesive, like the line has to look like fall out like the same color story, the same type of fabrics, like it has still looked like the same girl is shopping it, you know, it has to read it. You can't just be like, Okay, here's like a denim jacket here, some leather pants. Here's a T shirt. I'm fashion like sure that can work for a season. But then you're you're not like gonna have longevity. It needs to, like, make sense as,

like, seasons like people need to understand. Like, who? What Katherine McCarron is like what, like long term? What the line looks like is your goal. And you want maybe the Maybe the girl is 18 when you start, and you she ages with you, you know, and and then her daughter shops and stuff like that. It's a whole, like science actually behind, like designing a line that I just I just was foolish and didn't respect, and I just thought, Oh,

I know fashion, You know, I could do this. And so it became really clear within that first year that I did not know, and I needed to learn quickly to at least get up to everyone else's level. And on top of that, not only not only designing, we had to sew everything we had a pattern make. I didn't know any of that. I didn't have a pattern making it harder. So I know anything. So, you know, I had an uphill battle. Yeah.

Yeah. And how long is grad school for fashion design?

Yeah, it was three years,

And by the third year, you were in New York Fashion Week. Yeah. Wow. And what was the progression? What? What kind of groove did you feel like? You hit or where did you Where did you feel Like you had a Griff in those three years and or did you or did you always feel like

Oh, no,

I did. You did awesome. And then and then, um, And what was What was that? Describe that group.

Yeah. Um, there's actually, um, this point called mid point, which is just how it sounds. It's the middle of the program and they assess if you're actually even going to graduate, actually going to even like, um, if you're good enough to even get your degree. And second, if you can, um, uh, compete for a fashion week, you know? And,

um, I I showed, and and it was this panel of, um, professionals, like, really established, like Simon. Unless it's one of them who worked with, um, Alexander McQueen really early on, and, um, is just incredible. And there were, um,

some other, uh, really esteemed judges that ah, were part of the judging process. And I went up there and, you know, I showed everything, and, um, they looked at it, and then they, you know, had me go out for, like, 20 minutes, and then it came back in and they said,

You know, um, you you shouldn't compete for a fashion week. Um, you should just work on your portfolio and get a normal job. That's your best bet. And I was like, you know, I was like, 23 cried, you know, a super green a site. And that was like my kind of wake up and and I knew that they were It was true because they were really I couldn't rationalize in my head that there was this a subjective judging, maybe because they were, like, not established people or whatever.

They actually were all legit, especially Simon. And he knew what was up, and and so I had to just take that pill and be like, I'm not good enough yet. And then I came back, um, and did that again. And I was, like, much more hardened by that point. And I was, like, you know, going to school from, like,

eat during the morning till 12. 30 at night, every day I got a tutor like I was just became really psycho. You know, really, I was like, Oh, really? You don't think I could do it? I can do it. You know, I got really, like, you know, I was passed on then, um,

I came back and I said, You know, I know that I'm not going to show in New York Fashion Week, but I just want to show you what I'm working on my portfolio just to show that I can pass the program. And then they put me out again for 20 minutes, came back in. And they said, you know, I actually think you should compete.

What is put what? Just while they chatted

about it? Yeah. Sorry. Like they put me out of the room and they had, like, a private conversation.

Did you think? Oh, wait, This could go well or were You know, that was not

even there. I was like, um, cold, cold hearted. By then I was like, I didn't want to, like, get my heart broke again. So I was just like, I'm not going to get it. And then when Then when they said you should compete, it was on. And then I like legit, really put in the work, you know, and I just never left school.

And I hung out with only the Koreans. Like, stayed the longest. My bus running time in son went thio like the equivalent of Harvard. It's called Seoul University. And, like, I couldn't even keep up, Try they would be there till, like, 1 30 in the morning when school closed every day. And we just That's

how I got in. For how long?

For, like, almost a year? Yeah.

Do you think Where do you think you would have been a 26 27. If you didn't have that experience at that midpoint, what if you had done? You've been doing well and there was no had a midpoint conversation. That an inflection point?

Yeah, I think it was. Is good for me. You know it, um I got my ass kicked, you know, I was humbled, and I knew, like, it's not easy. I have to fight for it. I have to awake, trained for it. And nowhere, in a way, you know, nothing was easy for me. I nothing for anyone but

right. Well, and that's something we we've chatted about before his founders in very different realms. But tack or or fashion? But it's something we've chatted before about. And you mentioned something. Um, remember you mentioned something about more heart than capability and another founder that that really what was the the story about About that and and and kind of, you know, it's one of the questions I want to ask what something you think a lot about. But you rarely get a chance to talk about, um and you and on this question you had mentioned to me before about luck and in your your view of it, you mind telling me

about Yeah, Um, so the first the first part he asked me was, um, the founder, that, um she she heard It's Sara Blakely, the founder of Spanx. Um, and it was like, I follow her instagram, and she's super inspiring. And she she posted this photo of herself when she was a kid, and it was like, um this silly like participation award or something. And she was like, Oh,

God, I was so embarrassing. I got I didn't get, like, a 1st 2nd or third or even fourth ribbon. I got the participation like and you know, and I can relate to that because, um, you know, I was, as I was saying before, I was like an athlete. I was I would always get, like, the sixth place ribbon, which is like,

What is that? You know, it's like I think it was like, sometimes last place. But I got a ribbon and I was like, anyway, And so she said at the Post. She said, um um, she always had more heart than capability, and she wore that as a badge of honor and and I love that. I think it's really honest. And it just means that, um, you know, she doesn't have this,

like, God. God, gift. This gift from God, that was, like, incredible. She just fought really hard into a lot of heart. Yeah. And then you asked me also about, um look, and I don't And I don't believe in luck. I I think that you make your own luck. Tell me more. Yeah,

um, I think that ah, another. So I follow. Like all these people, you know, I get as much help as I can from self help books for her mentors or whatever. And I'm no. Yeah, I'm not above it. Anything that you can give me, like, please send me on my way and I'll give it a like you gave me this book and I was like, Yeah, of course I'm gonna read it because, uh, anything that somebody suggests like that can help me be a better version of myself. I'm I'm all for

so same

here. Same here. Yeah. Um, So Kevin Hart, um said like, you know, the comedian

Kevin Hart, if his brilliant really did Yeah.

Yeah. And I wrote his book

to Oh, yeah,

it's really good. You should read that one.

Awesome. I love nonbusiness books. I mean, I really should read more of these. Also love nonfiction? Probably too much, but But yet like that David gog its story. I feel like I would learn more from that story than just the founder of ex company. Because I feel like I read those stories. Ain't ah, but yeah. Okay, So what about the Kevin Hart book of a special

four? Yeah. So, um, they were like, Oh, my God. Kevin Hart, You're like an overnight success, like, you know, level of law. And he was like, Yeah, an overnight success of 10 years in the making, you know? And so there's always,

like, this glorified story that once you get, reach them some level of success, or you have this accolade or you've accomplished something that everyone's like, Thinks that that was always you or that that And But that's not true that that person was built over time through successes and failures through failures, a lot of

failures. Oh, I bet anyone that went to New York Fashion Week while you're showing was probably thinking this person everyone here must have had flawless trajectories, right? And not knowing, you know, the story beneath

me, that all the work I was like, the worst student he started, you know, that's like, actually not not a lie. I waas And then I hit it for I hid, Um, how good I was for a while because I I cherished it so much once I actually built it. I didn't want it to be taken away or something silly. Whatever. And So, Carl, who's who is my boyfriend? He's not my husband. Yeah, of course. You know, Carl, But he never saw even one design of mine until he watched it walk down the runway in New York. Yeah.

How long had your

Monday? Oh, like, you know, a year and half. Well, yeah. And as

weird. What was? Why do you think?

I just like I guess I just protected it. I just I guess I was just like is I was afraid it wasn't really or something until it I was, You know, like when you asked me the my time for the marathon, the old me would have been like, I'm not going to tell because I'm I mean, I would be afraid to fail and not meet that time. But now it's like, Hey, if I don't make the time, I'm not like I'm not afraid to fail anymore. Well, I am, I guess, a little, but not at all How it used

to be, really know, like, walk me through. Okay, so it will. That story is, is you wouldn't even show your boyfriend at the time. No. Any of your designs. And until you showed the world at the most prestigious event for your industry, Um, that's And now, uh, yeah. Tell me how your minds that has changed over time over the last 10 years or so.

Yeah. Um, I think, actually, it's a lot of myself. Talk has changed. Actually, I know a lot of myself talk. I was I was, like, meaner to myself in my twenties. You know, I was like, I didn't enjoy even any accomplishment. I was just so always so hard on myself. Nothing was good enough, and I want a lot of things because of that,

But like, I didn't enjoy them. And I didn't, like, feel good when I got them. You know,

I totally know. Yeah, And you can get things through maladaptive ways and think, OK, that's why I got them. Yeah, I'm so scared of losing these these things, these targets that I keep setting myself. So I must I better keep doing what I've been doing,

right, Right. And now I'm like like, Okay, I'm I mean, I'm gonna sound like a crazy person, cause, like like it's all I do is I could read these people, but I also was reading Michelle Obama's memoir. And

what's the point of this podcast, by the way, is I think we get so much inspiration from others that are maybe a little further in their journey or they're right there with you. It ain't and it just feels like Okay, that's, um relief, because I'm not alone. And I thinking this this thing, that is why I started this podcast was because I would have these conversations through through immense low points that were so helpful, and I would think Why? Why am I only hearing this now? Like I, I spent the last three weeks feeling like I was alone until I had this conversation over drinks where someone telling me the real version of of their journey, and it's It is. I mean, it's a psychologist was telling me recently that it you know, when someone's going through pain,

um, during it, it's actually it's almost impossible for them to truly deal with it. It needs to be afterwards that they deal with a and but the one way that you can help them is for them tow Did not feel like they're alone. Yeah, that's I mean, I consuming these things about other people by our diesel left and right, because it's yeah, s o. Okay, so I want to hear about all of your influences on Kevin

Hart to OK, OK. Yeah. So, Michelle Obama, um you know, her book is called the coming, and it's essentially how she became Michelle Obama. How and how Obama became president. You know, it's a two part, Um, it's It's a two person ah, business, I guess becoming president. It's not just Obama. It's his wife also standing by his side,

you know, they did it together, you know, as you and Janey and as mean coral. You know there is. It's the two people always fighting together and whatever and so

I'm gonna have an episode with spouses.

Yeah, Yeah. Oh,

my God. They houses of founders or creators?

Yeah, yeah. And And Yeah, and Carl. Carl is the he He also is a co founder with me, And he, um he's funded it for a long time. So he really deserves some, you know, some sort of a warder home cooked meal or something. But, um So Michelle Obama said, you know, back then her, like, uh, when herself talk was not very healthy,

she would say, Why me? Why me? Why? Why? Why me? Like, why could I, you know, get first place? Why could I do this? And you know, and she was very much like how I was like she almost, like, abused herself in order to win. And then eventually she started saying,

Well, why not me? And I I that kind of happened to me, you know? And it's like, Why? Why not? Why not me? Over anyone else And you know, and same for a stranger. Why not them? Over? Not that you know, it's just a Z z to ask that question than to say, Oh, I can't do it. Well, why? Why not. Yeah,

I can't Really? When did you start? Oh, shit. That self

talk? Maybe in my thirties, to be honest, like,

what do you think about your life that was going on that helped shift that perspective?

Well, um, yeah, The big one was when my nephew, which we would Well, we'll talk about, I guess later, Whatever. But, um, you know, a couple big things happen, like, you know, it's not a I mentioned before it, but it's not a marathon. It's a sprint.

So, like, many things lead up Thio who you become a guest over time, but one that shaped me. Um, you know, my my nephew, we unfortunately share a similar, um, experience, life events, whatever. That my, um, nephew, um,

took his life. He was my nephew, David. He was 17 a little over a year ago. And ah, and he suffered from depression and anxiety and ah, and it was a terrible time, as you know, and I'll never, um I'll never expect it thio you. No, no, no. It to the extent that you know what? I have one degree of separation, but it is

no comparisons. It's is You've been through it with someone you care about that you've been through?

Yeah, exactly. And it And it is a taboo subject. There's no guidebook, Thio like on how to deal with it. And you literally just have to walk through the fire of hell in order to, like, get out on the other side. And I think because he suffered so greatly, um, I made it a 0.2 stop that cycle in any capacity in my own head, or so my daughter wouldn't have to see it, or my husband wouldn't have to see it. And I think we all are guilty of a bit of talking bad about ourselves and our own head. But I at that point, I was just kind of like toe honor him. I'm gonna It's gonna end. Not in my own life,

huh? Where do you think that you do you think that you learned it anywhere growing up? Do you think it's just human nature? I

do think it's a bit human nature. I d'oh. I also think it's a bit if you grew up in a competitive environment. Um, I I'm I have Ah, I really want to teach my daughter I know she's gonna be competitive. She's already competitive. Mean Carl or competitive, you know? So I know it, but I want to teach her how to channel that in a healthy way, not to beat herself up. You know, if she loses or, you know, I used to beat myself up, Um, and that would be how I would win. And I think

that where did Where do you think you you learn that? Or I guess, Like you said, maybe it's human nature, But what you said that you don't want your daughter to feel that is ah, you know, intimating that you can influence it. Um, was it just Indiana? Was it Ah, no school that you went to?

I don't know. I think I was born like that. I don't know. I don't know, because I

I ask, is that the school that I went to his Yeah, Hyper competitive. Oh, very.

Okay. I mean, you know, I mentioned swimming. So the swimming community where I'm from, like there's a couple people who went to the Olympics and stuff. So it is a very, um, competitive, like so I was around that a lot, So maybe Maybe that's what, um what is dead? Yeah, it was It was pretty brutal, like

and well, and so, um, in your thirties, you said that you wanted a stop that Tell him what would be an example where you would have this critical self talk before and now started to move away from it.

Yeah, I was, like, more afraid to be a loser. Before that, I would do everything in my power to not be a loser, you know? And now it's like it's the same thing, but I will do everything in my power to be a winner. Yeah, yeah. I just want to be a better version of myself. I don't wantto beat other people. I just want to a better version of myself.

Yeah, I think it's is for my own experiences. It is I went through, and I remember reading this, um, a few years ago that that this was like, You're very natural path for for humans. But Carl Young psychologist from that probably top 23 most influential psychologists. The 20 century had this viewpoint of called individual ation that up and tip from like 6 to 30. I may have mentioned this on the podcast before. But up until you're 30 you're wanting to belong and belonging by fitting in, which isn't really belonging. But you want to belong. And so it's You want to look the part of the community and from 30 on you go through this process of individual ation of you want. If you want to belong by specializing in something through individualizing who you are rather than being part of the collective magazine. You know, you look the same.

You look the part, you you say the same things. Instead, it's okay the way that I actually now see that I will belong. It will be through my own individual specialization of what I bring to the community. And I know that I I feel like I went through something like that where it was it was I wanna belong by being a version that people say is really useful. Say is it was basically was fit into that mold and then 30 stopped caring and, um and feel like I thought it was because, like, you know, just touch the hot stove, and I was through my experience. But maybe it's just so many of us go through that same path, And you you get to a certain point where you actually don't you create, Are you become who you are actually supposed to become? That is,

you have different than what's in people's minds that you're trying to fit in. Yeah, Okay, enough about, uh, little cg yun. So the the you in that end of individual ation are kind of in that path of that positive self talk. Is that Is that where something like the cookie jar comes in, where it's like, Okay, that that type of, um, that type of self talk, It's like, That's what is gets you through really tough times. I know that you just read the book, but that sounds phenomenally powerful, like, so simple.

It's very useful. It's very, um, Yeah, definitely. I mean, um, you know, we've all we've all had, uh, as founders, uh, accomplishment that we're proud of. We've also had a lot of failures, you know, But we have a couple that we can cling to. So

what are some of the cookies and the jar use mentioned New York Fashion Week. What are some of the others? That

yeah. Um, you think about? Definitely. When I you know, it was It was Ah, it was a hustle for a long time trying to get any stores like nobody would take me, nobody would knew. I waas and I would just I would like fly to New York and I would get this really like pimp hotel room. And I would invite all of these stores and I would like, pay the maids, like extra money to make it super clean, get champagne flowers. All these people would be on the agenda and nobody would show, right? Yeah, it was the worst.

And then, you know, the next season I would I came back to the same thing Nobody showed except sex. And then the next season, um, I came back and I went to Saks, and I and I met with W W D, which is like, essentially Vogue. It's like a the R fashion newsletter like newspaper. It's like like, um, New York Times. Or like, um, you know,

because of the fashion one. And, um and then finally, Carl, um, you know, seeing all of this, I was like, Okay, we have to, like, actually do a show. We have to do a legit show. And so we did this, like, trade show,

and Coral came on board, and, um, it helped a lot, you know, it was just me before we could only afford just makes herself one, But, you know, and then ah, and then we Then it came and we brought a crew for a model. We brought my assistant. We all flew. We spend a bunch of money, and we all flew there and got hotel rooms and their

listeners. Coral is this amazing artist, um, and an ill straight If you've seen if you've seen Ah, there's there's the Kong movie like the you see Drastic Park than you've seen his work. Um, his his phenomenal, phenomenal, uh, holster. Yeah, really cool dude to you did. Okay, So call when you have coral coming with you on this,

I think he might have gotten, like pissed, cause it was like, so much defeat. And it was like and I'm strong. I'm definitely strong. But it was like almost too much for him to bear, I think, And he was like, come on and like, I would get, like, little small things and then just like devastated,

You know what year is this?

This is, Um Gosh, when did I really get that? I think I got this. Stores, like, a lot in, like, 2013. So this was, like, 2000? Yeah, like 2012. And so then he was like, Okay, let's go.

We're gonna do this trade show. And then I got, like, Neiman Marcus. Bergdorf's revolved, which is, like, the biggest online. They're basically like sex. And I got, um, like, you know, all these stores and Asia Japan, It all kind of came at once. It was,

like, kind of like the payoff. And that's another cookie. That's good. You know, I was like, Hell, yeah. Finally, I got all of these stores, You know, that we're, you know, so difficult for me to get the prior years.

And how long did it take in years to get to that point? Probably like the New York fashion show, which I imagine you probably thought, OK, it's all happening. It's all gonna just be

down out from here. I woke up in after New York Fashion week to like so much press. Like I was getting phone calls like Oh, my God. Go to get daily news and w W d and style dot com And I was in all this press, like next to Ralph Lauren, and I was like, Oh, my God. You know, And so I was like, Oh, I made it. This is it.

And what

year was that? Oh, this is like, a 1,000,000 years ago. This was like, Ah, what you're like, 10 years ago, 10 years

ago, 2009 and then it was another four years. Yeah. Yeah, Well, yeah,

What was no more than 10 years ago? It was like it was like, 2006 0 wow. And then, like, I moved to New York and work for other designers and was a whole other light like chapter in my life. And then I started my company in 2010 and grind it for, like, you no longer and everything. But, like, really like, Ah, three full years of like, almost nothing, you know, I mean, so many things happening, built up contacts and everything like that. But I didn't see money and I didn't see stores. I didn't see anything come to life into a couple of years in,

right? Yeah, the guy brings up. This is Quote. I love this. There's ah, quote from a basketball coach, Greg Popovich from the San Antonio Spurs, that he talks about pounding the rock and to split a rock open. It requires 1000 swings of the hammer, and it's on the 1000th swing that the rock splits open. But it required all 999 before it to actually produce that that moment in time. And it's it is. You see that moment or you see that moment for someone else. And you like the Kevin Hart. So you think it is overnight or you think it's that swing of the hammer and any I tell. I tell for some reason,

I zero in on this thing of like with entrepreneurs. It's like 16 months, 16 months before you see that graph start to curve right and I don't know why. It's almost like cause I think in my head I mean, that was it was similar to our experience, but I've seen people get 789 months, 10 11 months, 12 months in and feel like and yes and quit and it's you. It oftentimes is just a recalibration of your expectations. And one of the worst things you can Dio is have thes expectations that it's going to be 90 days from now. You know, 56 months from now and in the grand scheme of things 16 months or you in three years to live out your dream is nothing. But if you think it's going to be, you know, four months from now and that drugs on, month after month for three years,

it's yeah, that recalibration of, I hope through through this podcast and through conversations, I I'm I could become much more, Ah, much more intelligent on on how to re recalibrate those expectations for friends and friends. Cos I just throw out that 16 month thing because it's not too long. It's not, But it's certainly not, You know that you won't see results of something special. 678 months

in. No. And I had, like, you know, within two the 16 months, actually, things were definitely happening, you know? I mean, I had gotten into my my first door was in Hayes Valley in San Francisco. It was it really like sought after store called dish. Sorry, I got that. And I got, like, a couple things.

I definitely had some stores. And, um, Refinery 29 was writing me up and stuff, but like the big one that I really want, It was the Neiman's and Revolve. And, um, Lord and Taylor and Burgdorf and all that. That came about three years in.

And when did you When did you think it was going to come

or when? Maybe, like, right away. You know, maybe right away. I didn't I didn't think it would be that difficult. I thought, if you know, if I was good, if I was good enough, which I thought I was, you know, I I thought my designs were great. We know. I mean, that sounds really Thio,

Katie. It's like a little It's, uh you know, I've been doing a really long time, and it's something I'm comfortable with. You know, I have a lot of things I'm not, but, um, but I was comfortable that I could design and that I could design a collection and he knew it was putting out good work. If it wasn't good, I would have caught it. So I was confident with what I was showing, um, and I thought that would be good enough. And it wasn't. There's so many other, um, like steps that you need to nail in order to everything tow line

up. Yeah. No. One thing I wanted to ask you about is you have told me before Your founder and your husband, Carl, can be a part of a larger company, but you would just hate it. And yeah, it and you, you're totally spot on I Same way. Yeah.

Um, I don't floor it flourish in corporate America. I don't How come? I don't know. I just I just I just come across way worse than I am, like, because my skill set is to, um you know, like as founders and having our own company, we can do what we want. We can push boundaries. You're only supposed to be, at least in my experience, I can't speak for everyone else because there was, like, amazing corporate jobs. Obviously,

Karl has a great one. Um, Lucasfilm. But, um, but mine personally, that I was in in New York, I worked in New York and I took on some freelance gigs, other places. I was just like a cog in the wheel, you know? And I wasn't even if I was driving it, even if I was like, uh, consultant, like on,

like, the director or whatever. Like, still, I had to answer to people that, like, didn't necessarily know what was right.

You know, it's like a delicate delicate, So it's so, um, you just push to be so diplomatic in the end. And I think in my own experience, you're also just wondering, OK, but I'm, you know, self awareness. Maybe I'm just completely unself aware area. No way. Overconfident, but, um, but there is There's probably some middle ground. That is the truth. I also I just spot. Yeah, and it's

it's never worked for me, though. Yeah, ever.

What in do you think? So you feel kind of like a You need to be cage free.

Yeah, I do. I think that certain people are just like that. Um I feel yeah, I feel like I'm kicking in a cage or something when I'm If I really, really love working for myself, I love being my own boss. I I flourish, You know, I really do. It's what I'm supposed to do my friend Imran, who's also, um, a founder. You should interview him. He said he's awesome. Um,

he, uh when I got on the cover of Cosmo, um, him and his wife gave, um, made this, like, beautiful crystal. And this, uh, they wrote in the card. Um, what you are seeking is also seeking you, And it was roomy, and I

really But the second time room has come up in the podcast. Yeah. And the first few episodes? Yeah. Okay. Room is a man.

Yeah. Seriously? Yeah. So I feel like that. I feel like it's natural what I'm doing. It's like what I'm actually supposed to d'oh! And I feel like if I'm working for corporate, it just doesn't doesn't fit me.

It's have you experienced, like, growing up? Were you ever kind of in a cage? Did you ever feel like you were

Well, I had. I mean, it was good. It was good in bed because I had an older brother who was very protective, and my parents kind of like, had him protect me, which was great, you know, which, like, you know, um, I could do a lot. I could get away with a lot like nobody would mess with me. His best friend was a professional fighter. Like you end up going to the UFC.

Stephan Bonnar. Hey, is like, really big a big, uh,

player. Yeah, that's the world. I don't

know if any listeners Aaron, the USDA, they probably know Stephan Bonnar. Anyway, that was his best friend. And so I could get away with a lot, And I could, like, kind of run my mouth and do that kind of thing. Yeah, for sure. And like, guys wouldn't mess with me. I mean, to a fault, nobody would ask me out, you know,

which was, like, the word No boyfriends. But, um, but I also like, you know, Yeah, I wanted to, like, Do I want to be free and, like, you know, and I just I guess that Yeah, I was a little overprotected. Yeah. Yeah.

Did your parents, um, help you feel? I think that's actually really interesting observation of of I also like, I could not wait to get out of high school of college. Like I literally that when we graduated. Yeah, um I went straight from the ceremony, packed my car and started driving the 17 hours home and everybody's staying Tau Tau party, but and then six days layers on a flight. Oh, South Africa. Where, uh, my first job. Like I could not wait right to leave. And and,

And I, um, and my friends to stay for College River. They bring that up. Ah, the But I always cannot wait, but I think it's maybe a part of it is like I need to live that cage free life. Yeah, but maybe part of it was also I was so supported. I felt so safe. And you're talking about your brother. He protecting you. Okay, I think I felt so safe. I had three older brothers that were very supportive. I had two parents who were really supportive.

Sand. Um, and I think, you know, for a lot of ah, long time I thought I was doing these things myself. But every day I feel like I'm reflected especially of being a parent. Just reflecting more on all of this. Just staircase staircases in staircases of love and support. I was getting without even knowing it. And it is a um yeah, that's an interesting, interesting upset. You immediately felt. Yeah, or reflected on being protected. Yeah, and

it was all nice. It was, like, so nice. You know, It was like what? You know, I just Yeah, like like you said, I couldn't wait to just, like, free. And you just do whatever I felt like doing like I was so stoked. And then I picked a partner, and I e I think you did, too. Who allows you that freedom in a really beautiful,

amazing way. You know, Karl lets me kind of do as I please. I mean, you know, I don't do anything crazy or about or anything, but he doesn't like, Ah, I don't know. I don't know what normal wives do. Like they're expected home. A certain him, I don't know, but I'm

no changes. So, so supportive.

Yeah, just the past.

Yeah, it's, um and I guess it's probably given pull because it's you. I crave that freedom so much that I think that people that let me also, you know, want to provide that right. Um and I handle it responsibly. Yes, stick by him and you handle it responsibly. But but but it's certainly probably more to do with that support system. then just strident. Um, no approach the life. You really D'oh! I really, uh, actually,

you know, as you talk about it, think about why Didn't have protective older brothers action. My older brothers let me get beat up, but and they were doing a lot of the beating up, but I did feel really safe. Deal on export, man. Yeah, that's interesting.

There's a whole big world, and I think for certain people like you, just like you said, you went to South Africa and I spent some time in Greece. And then I went to Honduras on this mission when I was in college, and I just And then when I was 17 I went to Cancun like by myself. My mom was like, Oh, you know, everyone was gone huge like spring break when they were 16 to Myrtle Beach. But my mom didn't let me go, you know, And, um and I was so bombed was like the whole class is going and she was like, Wolf you. If you raise enough money next year, you you can go.

And I was like, cool And then I, like, became a telemarketer, like 17 because it was like the highest paid job I could get. The time was like 20 something dollars an hour, and I raised, like, $1500 which was so much at that time. And I went to Cancun and I was a key. Yes, Like I This is where I'm supposed to be. It was it felt so freeing and like, amazing. And that's just like my spirit. No.

And I feel like you're very, very similar, of course. Yeah, and I just want to give up below the line. Um, little blurb about being on the block podcasts because it's Yeah.

What is it? What? It's my

first time, first

of all, on a

pocket, Really? And and I just started growing. Won't Thanks. No, you're fantastic. Interviewer and making me feel very

no, I but I'm literally learning on the go.

Yeah, but you you're making it really easy for me and it does feel like just a conversation. I was really nervous. I'm like, just totally going. To be honest, I'm like, it's one of my challenges that I'm trying to overcome public speaking, even though this isn't public speaking. But I know that people are listening. So you know. I'm aware. Um, but, uh, but it was It's really cool. It's I like it.

I would totally come back if you invited me. Absolutely. Um and it's it's been a real pleasure. I really mean it. Oh, yeah. Thank you. And the microphones are really

cool. I don't really do all the work that it's if you have If you have really good mikes and you can you don't have to talk too loud. Yeah, it's is Yeah, and and it is a, uh it was a journey finding the right equipment. But then once, once you d'oh, I like thought about this podcast for a long, long time. But that year and 1/2 that I would recorded a few episodes that then I was like with really bad equipment Holy year in Afghan. Got rid of it because it's just, uh,

this is really good. Like, I'm not cringing hearing my voice, and I usually do like on a normal like it. It just sounds Just sounds nice. Oh, it feels good to you.

Okay, well, we touched on one of the things that I ask everybody is tell me three stories that have helped shape who you aren't. We actually may have touched on on them during the convo, but But let's hit it head on. Border shoot. What are two or three stories ever helped Shape? Shape who you are today?

Definitely the New York fashion week one. And I know we touched on that and everything. But, you know, I was such an underdog and I really did not believe in myself at all. And then I, you know, came out on top. I really put in the work and and I got it. I got something so out of my reach that, like, seemed like Onley. Those people got it and like doing quotes with my fingers right now, those people And then I became one of those people. But I don't want to be seen as one of those people, you know? I mean, I want everybody to know that everybody can get what they want. They just have to put in the hours and they, you know, be dedicated and be a little crazy

or other times when you made it where you felt tempted to make excuses or 22 to go towards kind of the self destructive kind of self pitying type of realm that I think it's human nature to go towards but works against

you. I did. But this particular one I knew this was like my go for broke moment. I knew, like, if I didn't get this or if I didn't try it like I didn't know how my life was gonna go. I didn't want to know how my life was gonna go. This was so important for me. And like the moment that you know, they read, you know, they put up a list in school that that is public, and you have to go and look and I wouldn't go, I wouldn't go. And I was in our A like a resident advisor, like all through college, like a live for free.

That was a kind of a door, mom, you know, aside, good grades and stuff. And, um, I made one of my students going check hand. You know, I didn't get a phone call 8 30 in the morning. I'm supposed to, and I was like, Oh, my God. I pulled the covers up over my head and I was like, I didn't get

it over to find out if you got the New York.

Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, I wouldn't go in. I was too Chicken shit. I would not go into school. I couldn't do it. I couldn't face it if I didn't see my name on that list. I just It was too terrifying for me. And it was like, my my biggest moment of my life, and I just I couldn't I couldn't handle it if it didn't come true. And so I was I wouldn't handle it that way now, but I was chickenshit at that moment, and I made one of my students go check it, and she snuck in there, and,

um And she, you know, I didn't get a phone call 8 30 or 8 35 And I was like, She's too scared to tell me I didn't get in. And I was like, I didn't get in. I think in, like, 8 40 I get a phone call and she's like, Congratulations. And I was like, Congratulations, What? It's like I didn't even get it. And then

at 8 a.m. Did you feel like you got it? Did it? No, no,

no. I was like I was terrified. I was just like, What if this doesn't What? What's gonna happen? I just I was, like, paralyzed with fear, to be honest, waiting for waiting for it.

And you said that you wouldn't handle it that way. Now know how would you handle

it? No head heaven and be like Okay. And then get it. Try again next time. You know, like I'm I'm a different person. Like I'm I'm a better version of that person. No, I think I'm just not afraid to fell. I failed a lot like since that moment that I'm I'm I'm almost comfortable with it on my mom. I think I see it is necessary. So I would just go in and I would just check it, and I would just hold my head up and, you know,

yeah, it is something different. A friend of mine is is selling their their company right now, and it's not It's not the storybook ending that they wanted. We were chatting last night and and just were chatting about how you know, we have these narratives and and, um, saying earlier on in life, you would be much more. Ah, much more controlled by the narrative. other people would have and the place that he's in now. It's just it's his own narrative. He doesn't care. Oh, yeah, and then it before it would be like,

you know, did you? And we try to weigh, talked about like going to the gym and I don't go to the gym, but But it's It is like you know, it's You can go to the gym and leave, and that's like You understandably exhaust every muscle you can. That's the point and in yet Maybe you fail of getting £250 up 10 times and and that's but that's kind of the point to pushed to your limits. And that is, that is, you know, breaking down your muscles for, uh, for the point of breaking them down so they come back stronger bond. Yet when it comes with entrepreneurial ventures, it is because there's so much more costly than going to the gym.

But it's is it could be the exact same way if if that's the narrative in your mind that you're that you yourself are seeking up like that brought me down. But I'm coming back stronger and in failure. Yes, just a I remember thinking it. It's like this stain and now feeling like it is, it's just part

of it. It's almost like a badge of honor. Now it's almost like like I listen to all these people listen like Will Smith, who is also really great, like I know you're not tear up Thanh on Instagram, but you should follow him on Instagram because he's like, really inspiring, and he's like a completely different person than he was. But she was always cool in his twenties and stuff, but he's like, really like a person that, like I'm gonna face my fear. I'm afraid of heights and jump out of a plane, you know? Um and he always said about failure like it's necessary. And I was so scared to fail when I was younger, terrified of the humiliation,

terrified like that was number one. It wasn't even if I feel like by myself, maybe it wouldn't even be that bad. But I didn't want anyone else to know. I was just like, Oh my God, I was the worst thing in the world and now it's like, you know, going back to the very beginning when I said when you asked me what? My time for the mirror, then which I might not make. Okay, so nobody hold me to that. Okay?

But I'm gonna

hold you to it. Okay. Well, I'm gonna do it that okay? But, um, I'm brave enough to say that now, you know, and it's and it's a challenging time. And people are gonna be like, Yeah, all right. You can't do it. Which maybe I can't. But maybe I can, you know, why not

say, right? It's for you, Not for anyone else anymore. Yeah. Yeah, it is. In early on in my career, I just needed external validation. And when you put that in someone else's hands, then you really live in this provisional exist in danger. They can take it away rather than and it's your existence is provided for you rather than then you being able to just care about your own validation, your own kind of value judgment on on what something is. And then you just get rid of value judging altogether because Or at least I have because things that you think are good, I I just I am so bad at actually value judging whether something is good or bad. Something that could seemingly bad ends up being the most amazing chicken. Well,

don't go below the line here and tell you that my wife and I, we thought we were gonna have a boy and just thought, Oh, intuition. It's like, No, I feel like it's going to be a boy. And we had the gender reveal,

and I

don't know why we thought is a boy. I think it's just We just started. We looked around in her nephews, and and I'm one of four boys. And so maybe it was just like, yeah, but the And then we had a gender reveal, and I and I remember feeling like, Okay, cool. We're having a girl. But this is not what I you know. This is a narrative violation of one I had in my head of what was going to happen, and and I was so attached to, um there's a dumb example, but I was so attached to two way too. Yeah.

You excited? Yeah. Not only thinking we're in every boy, but also thinking like, Oh, my intuition stuff is getting Cheney had these dreams of a boy, and that's just a perfect one of the 1,000,000,000 examples where I would have wanted one thing. Now with the baby girl, I would not I I wouldn't want 10 voice for the amazing baby girl that I like to just anything could not. Yeah, I could not imagine. Um, anything but But what the universe has given us and it is a, uh that's just one example that comes to mind off of something that, uh, maybe I would have penned a different version.

But I'm so glad I was so wrong. Yeah, and like every alchemy, So glad I was so wrong that you just get to atleast I've gotten to the point where I just don't value judge at all or trying to predetermined something that I think is going to be good or bad or just opening. Yeah, open to it. Yeah. And, uh, and yet it's Ah, it is. It's this thing that I think about pretty often of how bad we are at value judging you chatter that you mentioned your story at the midpoint. One of most informative experiences that got you into New York Fashion Week. And it's like you you probably wouldn't have penned that that low point, um, a year

and 1/2 into a or the high point. Even I didn't. And then, you know, I was in bed, like, you know, I didn't even know I got in, so I just I've been wrong a lot. My husband says that about it. He because I always say, Oh, I have a gut feeling, you know? And then he said, You know, you've had a lot of things wrong and still be true.

So, um that, like, what kind of sideways into my second like story? Because, um, you know what? I mentioned the other one. Also, my nephew, David, And I'm trying to turn into a really positive, um, experience. Not only don't tow honor him absolutely like to honor his life and, uh,

to just be a better version of myself. Definitely. Um, yeah. And, you know, and I'm running marathon for him and everything. You know, your Yeah. I mean, not like officially, like, I'm not like in any charity or anything, but it's on his one year anniversary. Um, I was like,

I'm gonna go for Iran, and I'm gonna go for, like, a five mile around or whatever. And then it started raining, and then it started pouring. And then, uh and then I was running in this pouring rain. I was running over the Golden Gate Bridge and it was like pouring my face. I felt like, like, so strong. And the night came back and I was like, Holy shit, I just ran 11 miles, you know?

And then I was like, I'm gonna run the marathon. And that's my second story is that, um I I rose up. I could have just let that experience kind of defeat me, but I'm I'm using another David Dawkins thing is that he uses, like, bad experiences as fuel to make his life better. And maybe even a little bit of you know, anger isn't the worst thing in the world's. Sometimes it's better than sadness. There's more energy and anger than and sadness. So sometimes if you start out with anger, you can channel it into, you know, something really positive.

So and when you were running those five miles that became 11 miles, what was going 3 300 in that rain and

I was just like, you're gonna You're gonna be strong. No, no, No, it's time now. It's time to be strong and to, you know, uh, rise up and learn from this past year. Mmm. And then, um my daughter is my 3rd 1 Just how l is is your story that is has shaped you, which I really understand. L is really a joy. And she's wonderful. And she's like Lee's best

friend. Your daughter lease there? They're best friends. And they're so

cute together. Yeah. And, um, you know, Lee, that my daughter, she, uh, becoming a mom. Um, they're always watching you, you know, and I and I want to be a, like, a better version for her of myself, you know,

and and always not just like, Oh, I'm the successful like designer I don't like That's only, like a very small part. I want to be kind. I want to be, you know, good. I wanna be a good, great role model for her. A strong, you know. That's why I also like was running like that, too. I was like, You know,

I have another little responsibility now. Not a little responsibility. Big responsibility. That's watching me. You know, she's always watching. The kids are always watching you, you know, And so I just wanna be I'm going to be great for her. And and she's just such a joy. I'm so I'm so grateful for every day of my life,

you know? Yeah. Uh, it's is such a mind bending experience. Okay, in the last question I have for you, Katherine is on something that we chatted a little bit about, but I want to give it its due and in the cover air cover that that I think deserves, which is what's something you think a lot about. But you rarely get a chance to talk about her, Really just really choose to talk about but something that that's kind of below the line. Um, and beneath the service for you,

it's it's a couple part answer to that, But, um, we might have touched on that, but basically, it's that I don't believe in luck. And then, um you know, I again I'm gonna reference a goddamn thing. I feel like I should get paid for

it, like I know it. Well, it's I I seriously do you think he's is ah, such an inspiring

yes character he is. And he said, um like the 40% rule. And ah, hey, says that we are only, um, like using 40% of our capabilities. And, um, you know, for example, if I'm running like, um, you know, and I quit, I poop out at,

like, five miles. I really could run another 60% which is true, because I've like, I felt like that in my body. I could, but it would be painful. So, um, you know, like a lot of people look up to founders or, you know, and they see them in this really glorified way, which, which is so cool that you're doing below the line because it's like the honest cut. And it's like it's not that way, like basically, like anybody is capable of doing something that they think in their heart is amazing. They just they have to have courage and they have to work really hard, and they have to have a good self talk and discipline,

and it could be in any type of creation as well. It doesn't need to be

no lots. I mean, God,

company, it doesn't need to be.

Who would want to be a founder? No, I mean, I'm just kidding. But I mean, it's crazy. It's crazy, right? No, but I mean, like, anything like that. People have so many different aspirations, but they could actually do them, you know? And people don't think

What do you What do you say when when someone says no, I couldn't do it. I could never do that.

I have been told so many times that I can't do something, and I I usually find that the people who tell me I can't do something are the people who are the most scared that I actually can. So I really and very cautious when people say I can't do something and I think everybody should be cautious when someone says you can't do something, I never say anybody can't do anything because I don't know what people are capable of To be completely honest, like I never rule someone else. I never count someone else because they could come. They could rise in the dead taken underdog, you know, like in Rocky and, like, really come back and you know you'll be so surprised.

Yeah, I mean, one of the I think one of the greatest blessings of, um having found her friends is You really do see there is no pattern.

No,

no, there is No, Just like, you know, this person had three generations of entrepreneurs. This person's is an immigrant, Did it for the first time and did it by accident. Um,

maybe the pattern is like their grit.

Uh huh. And maybe that's 40% that you they push

right, maybe for any. For anybody, Not just an entrepreneur, but like just that, Like perseverance that, like determination.

Well, it's, you know, early on you mentioned just that that phase of going from thinking you're gonna be good, you know, buying clothes, thinking you're gonna be good and then making clothes and being like, Holy shit, this is totally differently. Different. It is everything that everything that that anyone goes into creation mode. You go from consumption mode so easy to consume that it's half of what every creative person is doing is making it really easy for you to buy it right. And But when you create it, you know, one very few, they're very few people are spending all this time to make it really easy for you to create. And so you really do start from square one

and you think it's easy, actually, and that's their job to make it look easy. And that's actually what I do know. But I make it look really easy. And so lots of people are like, Oh, Aiken, do it she does and you can. But you have to get gotta put in the work and the time to

oh, this this podcast in the The idea of just this small project which which is is so small in comparison, has been two years, tons of thrown away versions

and hope I don't get

thrown away. No, no, no. Just thrown away versions off of it. And it started with the idea of of, um of the book that I've told you about the, um, but it's it is one of the things that that I am really trying to lean into with. This is consistency with it, and that is like, that is like this magic word that I never understood how hard that was until you try to create and you see just how wildly inconsistent things can become its eye make music and it's just so terribly all over the place, so

hard you Do you make music?

Ah, yeah. I mean, it's terrible, it's Ah, But it is just consistently putting myself into And, you know, I've dabbled and continue to dabble in stand up comedy because it's just okay, all of these Did

you know that I I feel like Jamie mentioned a really long

time ago, but yeah. Yeah. So it is. Um,

I would like Carla. They would go out.

You. Oh, well, thank you. Well, it's, um this is this whole episode is a plug for that. Now the bring it up because it is it is going from that consumption to creation is you get used to that pattern of it being so hard, but you wouldn't hear just getting started. It's so hard that you tell yourself after dipping your toes so lightly. Oh, I can't do that. Right. I was with the founder last week. That are no a person that wants to become a founder. Okay, So impressive person.

So, so impressive has done all of these things has gotten right, too. The front row, okay, but has stopped herself from jumping in. And, um, and we were chatting about, and she's like, I know I have friends that do it, and I feel a calling towards it. But But I just It's not It's not time yet, okay? And yeah, what

would you That's a

shame. Yeah. What advice would you give to someone that feels like it's not That uses that type of phrasing

of its time yet I don't know his name. Um is the founder of Giovanni and he said, um, I follow on instagram with Brown's name, but he one thing that helped me when I first started I was in my twenties and I and I, um he said, you know, you don't need thio. Ah, you don't need to know how to swim. You just jump in and you learn the swimming from there. You know you don't you? I remember when I started my business, I I literally had a studio and I sat down. I was so excited. And I had my desk at my computer and I had everything and I sat down and I was like, Oh,

my God, I have nothing to dio because I have no Cluny. It is, you know, and I didn't have anyone And then I started. I started, I started putting up inspiration. And then that led to designing and that that lead to finding out contacts. And then that led Thio getting in stores. And, you know, you just start you don't wait for there's no perfect time. You just Do

you have this this entrepreneur in Cape Town, South Africa, right? Would after I'd graduated and moved there maybe two months and we're getting coffee. And he said something so profound that is stuck with me ever since he said, Take both feet off the legend Providence, Providence will catch you. And I had to think about that phrase all the time. I actually never I don't mention it. Um, come to think of it, but I think about that phrase pretty often of just jump in Providence catches

you and I That's a good one.

I think, uh, I think about it often empowers so many decisions just to just do it and provenance catches you and you see that pattern start to unfold and young creative path. And and then you think Yeah, you go through the moments. Really? Why did I ever do this? And then Providence catches you again?

Yeah, that's a good one.

Well, maybe we'll put that. Maybe I'll get back on Instagram. It'll put that out there. You have your first pass. I don't know if I'm, uh I'm loving life without social media, but, well, that's not true. Uh, twitter has been, has been. It's been fun to connect with people about this around this podcast on Twitter. But maybe Instagram may well get on there like Instagram. Well, came back.

Thank you so much for the time I thought, This is a blast and learned a lot about you on the blue line version that we've known each other for many years and and I haven't heard really somewhat. I haven't heard any of that really something. So thank you so much for taking us all through it. Christine's Thanks, Catherine, A friend's and listeners. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want to hear more of these types of conversations, go over to your favorite podcast app and hit, subscribe or leave us a review. Good or bad, we love hearing from people that that appreciate this type of conversation and want more of it. You can also follow us on Twitter at Go below the line. Well, a CNR Twitter bio.

Our email address for you to shoot us a note on any suggestions of guests for topics that we should cover. We read every single one. So thank you for those that are already sent Those in. That's it for us today. We will see you next time on below the line.