friends and listeners. Today's episode is with Ben Witty. He's the founder and CEO of recess, and you might not have heard of bin or of recess. But it is perhaps the fastest growing beverage in the country, and you can go to take a recess dot com to check out their product. Amazingly well done from the brand to the taste of the drinks a CZ listeners know I often have. Ah, weird, quirky drink that I share of each episode with with the guest and recess is one of the first and in each time that I have had it on on the show. The guests always. I remember the 1st 1 Justin Khan loved it so much. He asked for some afterwards. He was like, Where can I get this? It is a CBD drink that is for me. It's an alternative to having a beer.

Just have a recess at at night where ah, you on a Saturday afternoon instead of day drinking. I really, really love honestly that take the taste more than anything else. And ah, maybe second to that is the brand, uh, and kind of universe that Ben is designed around. Ah, the drink. If you go check out their site over their instagram, you'll see what I mean. It's really cool stuff, I think. What's most interesting about the conversation has that been is his eight months into the journey. This isn't a conversation of someone that's 10 years on the other side of,

you know, multiple exits. He's right in the middle of it and shares openly what it's what it is like. It's a different type of perspective and different type of below the line perspective From a Creators vantage point, this episode is rightfully so brought to you by dope dog dope dot d o g is the place to get CBD treats for You guessed it your dog. This episode is CBD heavy out, and that's not by design. Ah, I really I came across recess because ah honestly really loved the brand. And then I liked the taste of the drink. Ah, the and dope dog. I really love the founders Aaron and Michael. What up? They are the founders of Dope Dog got to know them as founders and and then fell in love with them as a customer for our dog. Mr Windell,

our little docks in who, instead of the Xanax that are our vet tribes, Thio tried to prescribe for Window. We give him dope dog instead whenever we're traveling or whenever he seems to have back back pain. And it is such a great alternative to the prescriptions that that we tried to give him before, go to dope dot Dogg and into the promo code below the line for 20% off. That's dope dot D o g dope hot dog into the promo code below the line for 20% off. They've got oils, treats, even CBD shampoo. They've got it all, and stuff really works. That's dope dot d o g. All right. Without further delay, let's get to the ah more immediate CBD product at hand.

And that is recess. In our conversation with Ben Witty, this'd is below the line. Been what up, man? Good to see you. Yeah, great to meet you as well. Cheers. This whole episode is about recess if listeners can't tell from the intro. Um and so better than than having just a fun drink toe have in the midst of great conversation with founders, I get to chat with the founder of one of my favorite new drinks in the world recess. And, um, this happened very serendipitously. Just a friend put us mutual friend put us in touch.

You're in town, came over and like, Hey, would you want to record a an average? Yeah. So for listeners, I know spent maybe five minutes chatting to bend before this, but have admired what he's been building in the C B G or consumer products group space basically drinks food, drinks, types of companies, and, um, things you'd find a grocery store, Not the typical fare for you. Ah ah. Especially here in Silicon Valley,

but a crazy cool story. Um, um, nonetheless, with recess. But for listeners, I have never I've never heard this story from Ben. So it's all this is all gonna be really fresh and even more uniquely mean. You're, what, seven months in seven minutes in seven months into it. I think two years now, people are gonna be able to listen to this episode and and, uh, like, holy crap, that was the beginning of something really big wave. Um and ah, yes. I'm really excited to have young podcast.

Thanks around me. It's great to be

here. Yeah, of course. I would love to start with just the most basic of questions. Just tell me the tell me a little bit about yourself where you grew up and kind of the the run up to seven months ago in launching

recess. Yeah. So, uh, I was born in San Francisco, actually, but ah, I grew up in Laguna Beach in Southern California. I was, ah, surfer and kind of a creative into high school. I was really into art and design and filmmaking specifically and thought that's what I want. Oh, kind of study in college, but ended up studying business. Um, I went to college at Boss University.

Um, you know, you and ah ended up kind of living in New York every summer and kind of fell in love with the big city, so to speak. Um and I'm 31 So I graduate in 2010 right? One kind of the start up scene was blowing up here just emerging. Rather, thing was early date, not 2007 but it was like, right when I was about to hit. Yeah, um, and kind of come from an entrepreneurial family. So is attracted Thio what was happening here and decided to move to San Francisco. And I joined a three person startup called True Anthem. Ah,

we were building an influencer marketing platform in social media. It was one of the things was like the right idea. The wrong time was just a little too early. We launched on my space to give you a sense of you know, where the world was and I really was. I was early and I was also just clearly not a smart move. But ah, it was very impactful experience because from the early days I got to think about building a brand in a social media driven world. Um, I got to understand what a very, very early stage startup was and mistakes not to make most importantly, um, and kind of got exposed to the broader kind of, uh, you know, startup ecosystem and digital advertising and kind of e commerce ecosystem that was forming from there. I joined AA and add another add tax started called Admiral, I think was like the 10th or 15th employees and I was there for four and 1/2 years from 15 people

tow 600 people from from ah, kind of more artistic yo cinematic view of life to a kn ad tech company. What? What was the traverse

A ll there? Yeah. I mean, so you know, the the first draw about ecology Tech was just, like, kind of first job, early stage startup I could take. And it just so happened to be in a digital advertising kind of industry was influenced our marketing and social media in social media. But, you know, that was digital advertising. Um, and I saw. And so that's what I knew at the time. And I saw kind of the, you know,

they saw retargeting. Just kind of starting to emerge is kind of Ah, a tactic, right? And I'm like, this is obviously something that everyone's gonna be doing it just like that on Admiral. It wasn't because I was particularly passionate about digital advertising was more a bet on this being a company that was going toe explode, and it did, in many ways. Yeah, yeah, but, you know, and so how I ended up, uh, you know,

ended up in recess is more of a long man. Well, you know, it was. I recognize that I knew I wanted to start my own company. And I also knew I wasn't the best person on the planet to build software. And I kind of ended up there by accident and that my passions and strengths were more around kind of consumer experience is, um and so I literally just quit my job at Advil and kind of set out on my own. The first idea I explored was actually a hotel concept. This was, you know, back in 2016 right? One kind of Airbnb was definitely exploding and kind of we work was exploding. And that kind of the thesis was like how to hotel stay relevant for the millennial generation when Airbnb exists. Um, and I don't think hotels have done a great job of kind of reimagining kind of their experience.

Right at the time, I had been living between kind of San Francisco in New York, gonna helped open the Advil office in New York. Um, and a lot of my friends kind of live this kind of somewhat nomadic kind of life between L. A, New York, San Francisco, and the feast or sores like building so House meets a high end hostile, targeted at kind of that crowd. I also thought I also think that I was also obsessed with this idea of like, third spaces. I think I was always blew my mind like Wilder wasn't there Another like so house brand Ah, place. You could kind of, you know,

hang out. You could be like a regular at I said, You're home at the office Rabbit And so the idea was like, you know, toe differentiate against So house kind of add like a hotel component. Add some utility thio the kind of value proposition and ended up kind of bringing on a partner from distant like a pretty senior guy at the standard hotel group to contact Sport this with me and, you know, went after a couple deals and ultimately just concluded it was too ambitious for a first startup idea like building a hotel was highly capital intensive. Russ and, uh, you know, probably not. Ah, difficult to execute with no experience in real estate development, right? And so kind of decided to table that, Um

hello. What was that experience like? Like for? For founders so and those that parts of the story that get kind of glossed over. But what was how long did you spend on? That

was like, a full year, at least.

And then what was that decision like to to pivot away from it, As you know, the the economical term. Pity.

Well, I kind of, you know, during that I was very much in, like, an exploring face I looked at it is like I'm gonna quit my job, and I'm gonna explore, like, what I want to really do with my

life. And I was, like, built in detachment from the

idea. Yes. And I think I was also Yeah, delusional enough to try to be open to trying to do to ideas on once right, which I always think is a mistake. But I think I see a lot of founders try and, you know, do too much. Um, bye. You know, came it became pretty apparent that I was kind of say, aah over my skis a little bit for something that capital intensive. And, um, I do think you're first you picking the right first idea. It is very important in making sure it's kind of achievable and also kind of plays to your strengths

and skill set right. And to your readers of like, Okay, this is not gonna involve a whole lot of my weaknesses or weak areas. Blind spots. Yeah. CBD is interesting in that in that regard, especially in 2019 but, well, when I want to get to the, uh, the story recess kind of organically, but I But I also don't want to make sure we touch on why, Um, what made you feel like Okay, Recess?

Yeah. Story recess is I've always been at that time. Um uh, I had I kind of always thought my entire life. I was always, naturally kind of stressed out, anxious, overly stimulated. A d d like person in high school. My nick, My friends called me Trump because trump the bit, um and it was always kind of no issue I was dealing with, and I kind of would experiment with kind of various things, like meditation and yoga, and, um and then, you know,

it basically started. I saw CBD kind of bubbling up two years ago, as well as adapter Jenna curbs and started kind of experimenting with both ingredients myself, and when I started using CBD oil regularly, I felt much more balanced and even killed, and as a result I was more productive, more creative and less stressed out and anxious. I just had a number of insights from that experience. The first is I'm not the only one that's feel this way, stress and anxiety. Or like, I would say, one of the biggest issues of the 21st century. Which one inspires the one of our taglines, an antidote to modern times. The second insight was that the compound CBD was affected for me,

but the user experience was terrible, putting CBD oil under your tongue that tastes like grass. It was not a great user experience and definitely not a mass market use case. But the way to think about CBD is as a functional kind of commoditized ingredient, no different than caffeine or way protein. That would just be kind of added toe everything, and the value would be in kind of formulating in tow, the right applications with ready to drink beverages being the obvious one, which I'll kind of comeback Thio and then building the brand on top of that. And then I'd say the fourth Insight was I never even occurred to me to look at C b. G. I didn't start by looking at CBGB. I started by seeing CVD using it and then applying it toe more traditional CPG categories. The observation about CPG was this is the most brand driven category on the entire planet, and no one's actually good at marketing anymore. So Lacroix,

I would argue, is not a brand. It's a name, right? They don't end. I would argue that most of them recent successful beverage companies, succeeded despite being mediocre and marketing. And at the big shift, Waas. Ah, kind of your distribution strategy went from being exclusively traditional retail distribution to on the channel distribution both the Congress owned and third party like Amazon and Jet as well as kind of traditional retail channels, and that that's a fundamental shift in terms of how you kind of architect a C B G company. Today, I think it impacts everything from your go to market, your supply chain. How do you build your brand everything and that there would be a new way to build a kind of a beverage company?

Um, and that was it. That was the original kind of idea and I decided tow, You know, I guess, you know, focusing in on the the Beveridge idea. You know, I think over the past.

And did you have that about the same time that you were also thinking for the hotel concept? This

was like as it now, this was when I kind of pioneered kind of transition. This as I was transitioning away from that, and I was I applied for a couple of jobs. I was really like, What should I do next? But I knew I was always better suited to be a founder and an entrepreneur than be an employee. I was always that these companies that no one really knew what to do with me, like I always have these kind of abstract rolls like my tribe was like had a mobile at that role. Like my job is to turn the business from a desktop advertising business to a mobile business. It was like product manager and business development, marketing, sales, everything right, right. It's just because

he couldn't really put me anywhere right. As companies grow the the desire for generalised kind of Wayne's like, oh, everyone specialized. And yet, for the generalists kind of guy, this isn't as fulfilling. Yep. Got Aloysius. Actress. So So you are applying to companies and thinking

through okay, I e things might not work. And I was running out of my savings, and I you know, what

was what was the emotional kind of state then? Did, like, walk me through What? How you felt on it, you know, a grand and we lost. Yeah, to be honest, uh, yeah, What? We're kind of we had tell me more about,

um again. I think one of my strengths and weaknesses is that I've always had a ton of interests, right, and that I always ran it a bunch of different circles of friends. And so I never, um, you know, while I was passionate about kind of art and design and high school ended up studying kind of bit traditional business in college. And I was not I've never been, like, kind of Ah, I never And I was never a finance guy. So it was, you know, kind of, you know, just had a bunch of different experiences that we're not all that related.

Um, And so it wasn't like I you know, I knew exactly what I wanted to do with my life when I was 18 and said that three year period before I end up, you know, starting recess was three years of exploring a set of steak. That's a long time.

Well, it's a long time, but it's It's also, in many ways what least what's going through my mind is for B is kind of like 30 years of exploring. Oh, I just kind of from the perspective of there's some similarities to two story that when I was like 678 I was entering drawing contests like I loved art and I wanted to pursue art. And I like one this this Ah, I designed the elementary school, um uh, like directory and cover. And that was such a big deal Like to me. I thought that was so, so cool. It was like, I want to pursue art. And when I look back, I would probably wasn't until I was like,

28 29 until I look back and realize I used to love art and um and then I think a TW 89 10 at least in Dallas Texas. I didn't know Ace and I didn't realize this observation toe like, four or five months ago. I didn't know a single frickin artist even, like, even name. Besides, the ones you would learn in textbook. I didn't know a single artist from Dallas, A cousin, a friend and neighbor. I did not know a single fucking one. It was. It actually has blows my mind now, living in San Francisco, I don't know a single,

uh, artist or any musician or, um, creative professional at all. And I think that partially led to okay, there's, like, five paths, like Dr Real Estate in Texas, like oil and gas. Um, you know, lawyer and entrepreneur and I end up choosing underwear. No path. And I think I only now reflectively, um,

put that together like, Oh, that was the artistic path. But that was only, like, professional artistic path. Um, but that sounds like a similar a similar story of, like, not really feeling like there was this place to put art within your kind of professional pursuit for

a handful of years. Yeah, I think I mean, the dots connect backwards. I think recess is like me like I've always been passionate about politics, for example, and I spend a lot of my time not getting regulatory issues. And I think part of our success was the ability to see, like how the regulatory environment would transpire as relates to hemp in CBD, for example, like, And when I came with the idea that was purely days, I wasn't even thinking about that, right for

listeners. Do you mind giving a little, ah, high level view of what that's the regulatory side has been

like with Yeah, So I'd say that was the fifth kind of insight about the opportunity, which was that the way to think about this is that until December of 2000 18 hemp and marijuana were viewed as the same thing by the law. When reality, they're cousins within the cannabis family with one critical difference. Hemp doesn't have T. H. C. Mitt and Mitch McConnell introduced this piece of legislation called the Hemp Farming Act that I heard about when I kind of started really exploring into the idea that this was a well over a year before the building. It a passing um, which basically what happened was there was a hemp pilot program in the state of Kentucky, where these farmers that used to grow corn, soybeans, tobacco, transition to hemp it was a much higher yielding crop. Um, and Mitch McConnell saw the success that that hot for farmers in his state, and he basically said, We won't have to be the future crop of America. So he put this piece of legislation together, called the Hemp Farming Act at a conference

for listeners. What is it really interesting about this is like that that line future crop of America is like That's like, 80 years old and like the thirties, uh, the thirties or forties was like a cover of popular science pop science cover that was like hemp is the future. And then, um And then, yeah, it sounds like you know this story, and then it was kind of squash it for kind of like protected protectionists reasons for for um so if you can look up the entire kind of ah history of this online, we'll do a much better job. That's okay. So now fast forward to 2016 2017. It's back as the future Crawford.

Well, if it was, you know, there was that? And this was before somebody had really blown up so that he had a lot of foresight, To be honest with you and the bill. You know, when I read the bill or what was being proposed, it it accomplished two things it allows. It basically said we want all 50 states to be allowed to call Threat Hump, and it removed hemp extract and including CVD, which is a compound of in ham, um, from the controlled substance list and that this would shift the regulation from the D A to the FDA. And so again, this wasn't like even a big thing. I just kind of saw CBD started using.

See, we researched the regulatory, heard about this bill. I'm like, I'm gonna bet my life on this bill passing because obviously you're not going to start a sustainable business selling a controlled substance indefinitely. Like I had to basically predict how this is gonna play out. And then every decision I made okay from Day one was without contacts in mind. So, for example, when I was formulating the drink, there were two to make it first. All when I started working on the drink I knew like you. I knew I knew no one that ever worked in C B g like it didn't. It didn't occur to me to look at CPG. Um and you know, So I literally went on Google and I was like,

Beverage formulation partner. Like I I originally hired a group in Chicago that's a massive corporate formulated for, like, Starbucks and Dr Pepper. And I begged them toe just work with me. They agreed to reluctantly, and then after about a month, I fired them because that's not how I like to work. Like it was, like, very much an outsource formulation. And I'd like to kind of be the guy in the lab, but I didn't even know on Inter knitted right, um, and simultaneously I was like, How do I put CBD and beverage?

Like CBD, oil doesn't dissolve in water s. So I started calling hemp farmers in Kentucky. I'm like, how do I add this to a drink? They connected me to Ah, literally a random guy in New Jersey who was working out of ah, a lab in the back of a warehouse that felt like you were walking in tow, breaking that like a breaking bad like lab, and he had come up with some special technique to make it water soluble. But the problem with him is that one of the that's I made was that there's basically two types of CBD you'll see out there. One is isolated CBD or CBD isolate, which is just the CBD compound isolated on the others, kind of full stretcher and head that tract, which is effectively like the entire hemp plant compressed, which includes CBD,

the Compound CV, as well as all the other compounds and ter peons within hemp Now, which delivers both kind of, ah richer, uh, kind of effect. But most importantly, it's also much better position from a regulatory standpoint

because it was part of the farm bill. It

wasn't because part of the farm bill is that once the farm bill passed, the regulation would shift from the D A to the FDA. And the FDA is all about kind of permissible ingredients, marketing claims and labeling, and that in order to become a permissible ingredient, um, CBD and or hemp extract would have to ultimately get this designation called grass, which is generally recognized as safe ingredients, which is a prerequisite for food products, and that isolated CBD would not get grass because it was on the path to be approved as a pharmaceutical drug. And you can't put drugs in food on said. Therefore, the rights. Therefore, the right choice was full spectrum hemp extract. And so you might notice on recess, we label hemp extract,

not CBD. Um, and that was because recognition that even once the him firmly act passed, you would still be in this kind of gray area while the FDA clarifies the law. Right? And so that's what I'm talking like. I had to be thinking, like five steps ahead, right, anticipating what has come, But it's all about, you know, the thesis I had was that CBD is the caffeine in the 21st century and that this is similar to like Prohibition. And so the business plan was to navigate through the gray area. To arrive on the other side is the category of finding brand, and to me,

this is gonna be much. It's a bigger opportunity than Red Bull or Monster energy, which are 25 billion and $36 billion companies, respectively, right and So like I was like, that was the business plan was to take that risk and basically navigate through the mud to arrive on the other side.

And what I love about these types of episodes of founders, like right in in the thick of it is because, I mean, you're just you're not just a able to give perspective on balloon, but you're leaving right below the line in that it is you're not on the other side of $1,000,000,000 exit. You're just talking about this. What really happened? It's like you're living it right now. And you are continually making these bets of what's gonna happen here from now, two years from now, three years from now. What are some of the bets? The active mind walking me through some of the specifics beyond making the life bet. Okay, I'm not gonna go pursue these jobs. What are some of the other bets that you can share with listeners will be like, Fuck. I don't know if this is the right bet or not, but we're going all in for recess. Yeah. So

when I was formulating the product, I had a couple constraints I was designing towards. I felt very strongly that was not gonna be above five grams of sugar. I felt very strongly that should be in Cannes, not glass or plastic, even though those were much easier to manufacturer. How come, Um, there's just more capacity for like, it's easier to find manufacturing capacity in glass or plastic than cans counter. Intuitively, I also. But why did you are? Because if you want to have any commerce business, you can't basically sell product glass to sustainably, right? Just It's very clear that the world's platinum we're going away from plastic that leaves you with,

you know, can or glass in glass If you wanted to have kind of sustainable kind of, you know, at scale e commerce business glass is heavy and it breaks, so he's you can. Ah, the other constraint is that I It needed to be shelf stable so not needed to be refrigerated, right? Eso those which is the whole crazy process. A whole crazy process, right? So that makes the manufacturing substantially more complicated because we also didn't want to use preservatives, which is how something one method I'm making something shelf stable, which leads you with various forms of pasteurization, which is very hard to find. Also manufacturing life. So right. But those were all the right decisions even though they were the heart of dissidents

to make right for yeah, For listeners, that shelf stability is it's just so that it could stay on the shelf and not have to be sold every like nine days like strawberries were refrigerated or refrigerated 90 days or 30 days, overlong, like a cold press juice, which is actually quite wasteful. Because if you don't sell it, then you got it, you throw it away. So those

were some bets. And then, you know, we haven't talked about the brand, but I think that was the big the big component here, which is I felt very strongly that I don't look at recess is a CBD company. And I don't even look at his beverage company, Which all kind of get to later, Um, but that in this instance we wanted to market the solution, not the ingredient. And I think the best analogy to the category that we're creating as energy drinks. Bye. You know, Red Bull on monster, the function ingredients or caffeine and touring which deliver the effect. They don't call it the caffeine category they call the energy category.

Caffeine enables a feeling called energy and stimulation, just like I think CBD enable the feeling for me which helped me feel kind of calm and balanced. Right? Um And so when kind of building the brand like there's two components toe building the business there is formulating the the beverage and then building the brand around it and then figure out what the right go to market strategy for. That would be, um, and when building the brand, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I was very underwhelmed by every single Brandon beverage. And so, you know, when another just another design choice, I think I look at these all things design choices was I only wanted to work with people in the brain that have never worked in beverage, right? I wanted to kind of bring a fresh outside perspective to the brand and then,

you know, in sales and operations, I only hire experienced between people because there's like areas where you want to reinvent the wheel in the business in areas where you want. There's a way things should be done and you don't want to reinvent the wheel. Um, you know, But on the brand side, we wanted to kind of lean into establishing the use case of, like, taking a recess. This is even before the name recess. You know, we came up with the name recess, but again for me, I think I saw a lot of positioning of the ingredients CBD wrong from From my perspective, like a lot of people would either use it before bed or they would tell you like,

I don't feel anything. I'm like, That's a good thing on a bad thing. You're comparing CBD toe smoking a joint or having a drink when in reality, it's subtle the place to, you know, our favor and that feeling that we wanted in the kind of the value proposition that we went under hone in on was kind of helping you feel kind of balanced and clearheaded, not relaxed. We've never used the word relax in any of our marketing and never will, because I don't think people aspire to relax. You aspire to feel kind of balance and centered, so you can be your most kind of productive and creative self, right? And So that's how we kind of thought about the brand. And so he wanted to lean into again establishing the use case in the consumption occasion of taking a moment there day to resettle re balance so you could be productive and creative and then kind of established that feeling. We describe his icon Cool,

collected, right? And so all of those were, I'd say, like, again design choices in

the early days. And were you choosing all of these kinds of feelings in words before you had the name?

So I worked with, um, you know, you know, when we decided to far in the idea ah called that it searched on Google for that formulation company. And I called my friend Amit, who runs Jim Lane, which said, Happy, well known creative agency and your creativity. Um, and it was I was just like, yeah, I want to do a C B sparking water. That was it. There was nothing to try. This was even,

You know, this is at the exact same time I start to formulate it. And again, we had a pretty good idea of like the I'd say that the positioning and the feeling we wanted to focus in on, but they really helped us, Um, kind of hone in on the brand essence. And through that process, we came to the name recess, right? What happened is the brand got ahead of the product or the formula and start a pause with Jim Lane. Um, and then I ended up bringing on kind of freelancers when I was ready to restart that exercise. But the name recess, which is obviously an incredible one, kind of came through my work with Gin Lane.

That's awesome. And the, um what was with the name like recess. So for those that don't create creating the trademark for a name like that must have been really hard or was it just just beautiful

was opened. It was just open for the cattle cars,

that's all, Um okay. And so when you had that brand and you're waiting on the formulation, what was How did you were you like, I am so confident. This is now You're shaking your It was I mean, just to make the bet. To work with Gin Lane. Yeah, um, they're not cheating out, so I totally appreciate that. You were like, Okay, I'm skating with Puck is going and I'm making big bets. Yeah, I don't know if it's gonna work it out, but Well,

it was just like, if you're gonna win in C b g. I recognize that you we'd have to win on brand, right? It was also again started. My the thesis was that there's no good brands in C b g who The brands I look up to its you know, the aways, the glossy A's, the ever lanes, the off whites of the world. And I'd want to kind of work with people and kind of those worlds and kind of use. I'd say those toxics to build a brand in CPG, right? Um and so, yes, it was a bet, but was also a recognition that I don't think you can succeed in C b g if your brands not great,

because ultimately, you know, a lot of these products are commodity products and easily replicable spent. A lot of people have copied recess already, but your brand is a big much. And so is this clear to me, it was worth investing in

early, okay? And so why were you shaking your head when I said, you know, what was your emotional state? How this at this point of the brand being ahead of the product, waiting for the formulation

just cause, you know, I I was three years into Ah, like a journey expert, you know, trying to figure was gonna do with my life. I was starting a business around a controlled substance at the time. The first formulation partner that I hired and spent a lot of money on, I fired. Um, you know, it was basically just me working on it. Um, you know, when I the second formulation the partner that I ended up working on formulating the the beverage with and and the manufacturing with was a guy named Jason. I got introduced to buy. Friend was out of the bars like I'm firing this formulation company.

I need someone else toe work with to make this. Uh, do you know if anybody is like, Oh, I know this guy up in the Hudson Valley in New York who makes flavored syrups that you add toe like cocktails in soda like a sodastream. He knows how to make flavors, I guess. Like you should go meet him. I went, madame and like, pitched him on my idea. Ah and yeah, let's do it. And so I literally went upto Beacon New York, for every weekend for like, eight months,

and we just hacked on recess, tried a 1,000,000 different things, tried a bunch of different kind of functional ingredient combinations. Another decision was I also recognized that I didn't just want to be. CVD wanted to be somebody and and apparitions because I wanted to feel like we were designing a feeling. I also wanted the feeling to be, Ah, the use case would be more of a productivity use case. So by pairing the CBD with something like Chin Singer El Fini and they work together to deliver kind of a richer effect, but figuring out how to put there's all in a beverage and then make the unit economics work right is also very tricky. Because I also like this cannot be more than $5. You can write some, which makes it, you know, you're caw GSE. There's a kind of a threshold you can't pass to get there, given the nature of kind of beverage distribution and right, and

everyone's taking a cut well in another similar thread for listeners that Ben and I were chatting about before we turn in the mix is about six years ago, I was introduced in this world of alternate alternates that caffeine when I was running my company where it may be about 60 70 employees. Um, and I had heart arrhythmia, heart condition, and my doctor was like, You can't drink more than one cup of coffee a day. And, um, that's when I started Thio destroyed drinking green tea because the doctor told me it has L. Fenian in it that will extend your absorption of caffeine over a longer period of time. It also de stress you and help with just your cortisol levels which were elevated and you know, anything, any of these words. None of them know These words made sense to me at the time, but over the course of a few months, and,

uh, in just a lot of research into exactly what we talked about it after Jin's and healthy Ning, um, I was just like, Oh my God, there's alternatives to drinking five cups of coffee every day and far healthier alternatives to that. Um, we are living in a insanely over caffeinated society right now, and it's just like just push from the Starbucks of the world, the corporate kitchen that has just coffee for everybody. And it's from, Ah, whole host of different things. But it is where, way over caffeine. It leads to incredibly stressed out anxious lives day to day lives.

Um, and that's why I love reset. I also don't really drink, So it's like the perfect drink for Ah five PM coming over for Friday night drinks. I'll just have a recess instead. Um, and it is. But it's really interesting that it's your taking a bunch of different tack different tax than folks in C B. It's not relaxed for productivity. It's not just CBD. It's healthy Ning and another adapted since Before really riel efficacy. And it's gonna be brand let, um, the tell me a little bit more about the brand. So York to Gin Lane got the name and then kind of independent. Ah, it was it. Yeah, Designers as well.

Yeah. So what happened? Waas?

And by the way, everyone should check out. This brain is no less is more Recess is so cool of of a brand. It's just this Matt design can, which never seen before with one logo, just described this for listeners. Bad, you obviously know. But ah one, you really cool script logo. Um, and it's not these crazy visuals, like Coke or, uh or Lacroix or, you know, hip cool beer. It's actually the abstraction from crazy visuals.

Yeah, how how did you get to? Ah, that cool of a brand? It's It's so silly to fawn over a cool brand. But when you see how distinct different is that everything else out there, then there's obviously unique path.

Yeah, so one of my frameworks when you know in the desert in the early days was I looked at you go to the grocery store and look at these brands and I'm like it reminds me of like those Microsoft Apple commercials were like Microsoft would market like the features like the Giger herds, like the memory, like all the different features. And apple was like how you felt in how you used it. And today you go in the grocery store. It's like organic, non GMO, 100 grams of protein, satchel, etcetera, and we're just like recess, right? I think All those things are now table stakes. And I think what connects with people now is like they're feeling in the emotion. Right, Um and that this kind of inspired our go to market strategy like fast forwarding a little bit.

But I think another from work I like is like brands used to be built in the shelf. And today they're built on your phone and that changes everything, right? That fundamentally changes everything in CPG. And so

tell me more about what do you

mean? Yes. Oh, um, what's faster? They kind of the launch. I always knew that I wanted recess to be is kind of on the channel as possible. I mean that to the extreme. Like we're on uber REITs, for example. Um um and that recess is a product that makes sense to be sold everywhere and all kind of come to that. Come back to that. But I wanted to launch the brand off of our website only, um, for two reasons. The first is that I wanted to kind of consumer's first interaction of the brand to be our website on instagram, because that's what kind of conveys the emotion and the feeling of the brand.

And the second was that I wanted to kind of create that the buzz in the leverage online to go offline. So distributors were trying to meet, like, kind of heard about what I was working on and try to meet with me before I was like, No, I'm gonna launch. I'm going to launch into a PR launch and that the other observation was that

Kind of like a software. Kind of like a consumer

technology. Yeah, well, Bev er I mean, I think one of my biggest strength that I kind of apply more of a kind of a Silicon Valley mindset to see PG, which I think, Look, at most CPG companies start up. Stay literally start. But, like someone selling granola bars out of the bath back, like so many stories start that way. No, I was like, That's not what You know what? Once I got launch, you know,

I was like, I felt very confident actually, going into the launch. This so I kind of, you know, navigated

to the Trump of Sorrows. Yeah. 100. Okay. No, I think I'm

onto something. Yeah, and so I recognize

I've got to ask what were the signs were like, OK, I'm onto something. You

could see CBD kind of bubbling up, Uh, just getting more and more kind of popular and buzz. And then the more I worked we worked on the brand is like, this is something special, and we have a very distinct kind of approach that I think is gonna work. Um, I just take a step back again, like I'll talk about, you know, the other partners. So, you know, when I was ready, tow kind of finish struck the website, finished the packaging and, you know,

figure out like what our marketing strategy would be. I found two kind of freelancers. Uh, this guy, Ryan Harmon and Spencer Madsen, who were, uh, kind of just left their jobs and had ideas to kind of start an agency. And that was the first client. Um, and we just don't like kind of a deep connection to them. And I was not when he's found, I'd wanted to outsource the brand like I was, like to kind of like to do it all, but like we were, you know,

we work out of our apartments for a couple months kind of fitting out like what our marketing strategy would be, Um, and we wanted to create this kind of recess kind of world, so to speak. So just like Red Bull focused on kind of the action sports community to create the assertion of having a Red Bull and getting stimulated and Gatorade focused on kind of professional athletics, we focused on kind of a creative class. So music fashion are designed Internet culture. That kind of communities were speaking to you because I think all those people are by definition, productive, right, And that's kind of the value proposition I wanted people to feel. And I also, you know, I said at the beginning that I don't really view recesses a beverage company. I really view recesses, this broader kind of consumer wellness brand.

We create products like the beverage on many more in the future, as well as experiences like our Instagram and like our retail experience, Recess I rehl designed to help people feel kind of balance senator inspired second be their most productive and creative self. And I think all I think one of reasons why recess is working is it's kind of like a complete thought, right? Um, you know, I think not. Another observation we had when kind of building the brand was, like, three idea, Like the perceived effect of like drinking a recess is it's like, very interesting question. And I think it's the combination of, like, the efficacy of front of the functional ingredients and how they interact with you as an individual.

And everyone responds to these kind of functional ingredients differently, like some people can't drink coffee and others can have four coffees a day, including before bed rights and in babies compounds, you know, interactive us different differently. But arguably more importantly, it's your expectation about what you know, the beverage and the brand is going to do to you, which is the brand marketing kind of all the experiences. And so, for example, you mentioned the Matt can Well, I wanted to feel a certain way in your hands. So when you drank it, there was like, this connection. I think beverages have this very, you know, unique. A number of very unique attributes,

but was making is making me thirsty. So I'm gonna take a set. Yeah, And by the way, pomegranate is my favorite favorite flavor. Um and I love the Matt Canham it. Except here. That is good. That is good. Yeah. Um okay,

keep going. So, like, again, I have always looked at feeling Yeah, I've always just looked at this is this kind of entire experience and that that's actually inspired a lot of our kind of marketing strategy. Until last month, we hadn't spent a dollar on kind of paid advertising paid marketing of any kind. And the reason is, as we've invested in kind of content our instagram post, which are very

late great great instagram account, it's Ah, take a recess. Yeah, yeah, is phenomenal content. And I mean, you I actually just getting into the weeds, like, how do you create that? What do you have full time? Just creative content being created. I mean, it's a lot of design work.

Oh, yeah. I mean, we have the amount of creative output at recess is incredible for I mean, that's just, you know, one of our marketing tactics, but we doing, you know, probably 10 events a week as well. All have tohave kind of special creative developed for them.

For listeners, by the way, also been is six cities. And how, seven days

or something? Yeah, I'm a little jet lagged right now.

You know how many how many

cities I think are six cities in eight days? Wow. Yeah, I'm gonna recess us tour.

Well, I really appreciate you taking the time for the podcast. Okay, so, yeah, the events you have pop up stores and

everything's about kind of, um yeah, you know, you may not like the u r l is take a recess, not drink recess. It's all about kind of establishing this new use case in people's lives of taking a recess, which is taking a moment throughout your dead toe again recently. Balance and feel inspired. So you can be your most productive and creative and fulfilled self. And I look at our instagram is like a product like that is one form of a recess. Someone's taking. Um, and part of what's inspired the Instagram is that I mentioned the beginning. I've always dealt with kind of stress and anxiety, and I've no attempted to meditate often on, but it never really stuck with me about meditation. For me is really like sitting,

you know, by myself. Listen to music and just thinking It's more of this, like eyes open, like getting inspired by various kind of visual or audio inputs, which is a form of kind of meditation for me. And I would argue, each of our instagram post is a form of meditation, right? It's just like a distinct kind of visual aesthetic and an approach in a feat of, you know, usually kind of hot models and stuff, right, And it's meant to kind of stop and make you think for a moment, right? And I look at each of those is like a work of art that we produce every day.

Um, and so I look at these is like various products that all worked together to deliver this kind of cohesive experience. And I guess you know, another unique attribute about recess that allows us to do so much interesting stuff is the fact that it's a daily habit. Use case and purchase, which is the most powerful component, the most powerful feature in business. Arguably, you like the brands that I looked up to that I listed, you know, way glossy a Casper. Everything will away spending all this money on marking Miss Ellison. One suitcase every four years. Casper Mattress every 10 years, glossy a makeup once a month, you know,

off white. My favorite mark in the planet's for Diablo. You know, a couple times a year, you might buy something. Well, I think I can sell people. Most will recess a debt, right? And so therefore, the right marketing strategy is kind of content experiential marketing to kind of keep the rand top of mind to drive. Kind of brand engagement on everything we do is designed to generate kind of earned media, not in buzz. And so that I go back to my first job out of college or out of college. And it was it was kind of influence or market was wreck. A recognition that kind of a well executed social media campaign would generate could generate tremendous earned media.

And that's earned media is the most powerful kind of, you know, I think meeting you there. Yeah. And so, um, where we going?

Well, you're saying that Ah, that it's a ah in creating the brand from the mat too. The instagram it is. Basically, everything is reinforcing this feeling. Um what is what are some of the things that that is completely top of mind for you right now is the is the founder creator of this but also riding this wave That is a massive wave off of CBD at large. This new substance that that you said it's a really cool wave of putting a caffeine of the 21st century, um, building company and seizing this opportunity that that if I were a zoom out and kind of look at a lot of the actions bets you've taken is that there might only be one major brand in this space. And it's gonna be the first, best and last, um, Till walk me through just like what goes through your mind right now is your building this company. So it's, you know, like

eventually launched seven months ago, October end of October like, um, and it was the company's based in my apartment until February. Like and I just remember really depressing, you know, pushing the site live. Um, fortunately, we did. I was like, we're gonna do a press launch because see, PG is a category where you want to seem bigger than you are. And I was like I want all the distributors calling me around the world, which is what happened. Even the company's based on my apartment and I but the Cup. But the website,

the brand in spring, looked extremely polished, and I think we've gotten a tremendous amount of press because we have a very strong narrative, like we're not saying like CBD reduces anxiety were saying, like recess is an antidote to modern times. We help you feel calm, cool, collected, saying You're most kind of productive and creative self gets. And the Braden Instagram I look at as like our brand voice is incredible. I think brand your brand voice and messaging is the most underappreciated thing and in marketing, and I look at our brand voices like it's a social commentary on living in 2019 right? I think you know the world's gone crazy, but, like, has it really?

Is it really as crazy as we think it all is? And like so much of like, millennial culture is ridiculous, and the recess brand is kind of tongue in cheek, like I was always inspire the brand. I was always kind of wanted to feel like Jon Stewart almost well. I kind of like it's like it is a social commentary, right? And we're always trying Thio. You know, we're definitely like we've in, like, kind of read it Mean culture. And again the brand was designed for kind of created. Specifically, I wanted to focus on that launch was like graphic designers like I wanted to build the brand for,

Like, Emmett from Jim Lane on the right. And so there's all these kind of design references all the time, and I think there's like a thoughtfulness and a depth and an intelligence to it. That's very appreciated.

Yeah, and what is that is Ah, and I think that is the high level. What is it like you right now? 678 days, Um, writing this way. Then I'd say, You know, for listeners, it is the is the best product in the category of Scene I of C B. But I also think just so with one of my early investments and Halo top, there's very there's a lot of similarities, but huge difference of of, um, you've been invented a product that people love in a space that people would have always wanted a great product. It like a laptop is healthy ice cream. Ah, an alternative to coffee and alternative to alcohol. Almost in combining one product. But what is what is it like seven months

in now? Yeah, I meant Thio basically. So the launch, it went so well, we did 40 times. Our first one's projected sales in the first month had for, like, 4 to 5000 back orders all night, only after

a month. I actually remember. I think I was one of those orders. Yeah, I think I was wanted. And I waited a long time for long,

but because I was working out of a tiny co packer, I just like I didn't I was confident, but not nearly this confident. And I also I honestly had no concept of like what? Even the Met, like the scale of volume could be. Right. Right. Um And so But, you know, within a week, I knew he had, like, you know, we hit product, You know, we had product market fit within a couple days,

like it was very clear to me. And the funny thing is, I did know user testing. Hardly anyone tried recess before we launched it? Yeah, right. I don't really believe in. Not in, like a focus group for user testing. Like I designed something that I thought I I like that I thought other people would like. And I built a brand for myself that I thought other people like. It was not like trying to design this for everyone, which I think is very important. Um, and, you know,

you have to kind of you have to we have to talk about, like, how this category is gonna play out because it's very unique because of the regulatory done. And I think the best analogy is like Prohibition. I think CBD is gonna be his biggest caffeine. Think about how many industries are built on caffeine, coffee shops, energy drinks,

80% of the world. So that this before we started courting, I was down Bennett, this e book that that I ended up start with a blockbuster became so long I was like, I'm gonna make this e book about beyond. Coffee is the is the name, um and it is ah, made to be a sustainable guy to new tropics and adapt urchins and mushrooms. But it is in doing the research for the book. 80% of the world drinks caffeine on a daily basis for the perceived productivity benefits. But one six weeks into consuming the same amount of caffeine, you're getting less and less of those benefits even to its also like we touch on spiking your cortisone stress hormones. 34 coffees in you're not really getting productivity is so much more than just yes wakefulness.

Yes, yeah, to that point, uh, I want something that inspired the recess Brand positioning was this Kanye Tweet and I love Kanye and he tweeted calm by, energized and was like a picture of like, you know, a beach in Malibu. And I'm like, That's that's That's how I feel in a drink Recess, right? It's like I do. I look at this is like a new form of energy in some ways, Um, but I think

I'm sorry. So they were saying that the village was create

Okay, like so the launch was crazy. And then I also have this thesis that was like, This is a huge offers people are under, I think CBS underpriced under under oppression in terms of just how big it's going to be right and this is not gonna be a category like Kombucha or coconut water or like college and protein. Those air like small value because they're small categories because they're not universal value propositions, but energies, universal value proposition. Every person that planet needs energy naturally or through stimulants of some kind. Not everyone needs collagen protein, a kombucha, but we're What we're offering is the energy of the 21st century, which is again, I think, stress and anxiety. The world's only getting more crazy, not less.

And so, therefore, the desire to feel kind of calm and able to focus And, you know, basically building products for different use cases where you want to take the edge off, so to speak is a universal idea, right? And I think that's only gonna get more in demand, not less. But no one had really kind of built a brand or got it right, right until recession. Like

a really smart mentor. It's only one time that your life will be more determined by what you choose not to do than what you choose to do. And it's this over caffeinated realm that you just do, do do do do rather than kind of taken a step back. Listening? Yep. Relaxing that calm but energized? Yes. If anything, I mean, every one of us knows the energized, over energized friend, Actually, kind of annoying Yours is hopped up on add a role not actually that productive. Yeah, in the long run and even in the medium run, I mean,

it's like, you know, it's you working companies where you just know someone is probably taking too much Adderall. You never actually said bags and wow, person's really productive. Actually, while the person kind of gets in their own way a little bit and

I feel like that's been I that's been an issue for me. I've always loved ice coffee and

the same. I mean, when I was running, tilted, drinking five cups six cups a day, I was not able to listen two to anyone on the other side of a meeting that fine, if I'm 34 cups cups of coffee and deep into the day, and yet this feeling is I'm energised, yeah, and I am getting a lot done. I'm active, but not really achieving much versus an alternative source of productivity have got relaxed, so back tears are not. Relax, not relaxed, calm.

You get my point, though, like like I don't like the word Relax because, like if you tell someone, relax, that's an insult. You don't aspire to relax. You want to relax. Occasionally, you aspire to feel kind of overall. Back in balance, right? Run equilibrium, right? Right, like flow state, right?

Sort of steps, right? And so I don't think, Relax. You don't think flow state and relaxed, right? But kind of back to your your question about kind of house. Seven months. I always been kind of working backwards from the opportunity that we see, which is that this is going to be a CZ biggest coughing and that the this really, really gets going once the regulatory environment is fully clarified and it feels like CBD is everywhere, but it's actually nowhere because it's not at target. It's not a whole foods. It's not at 7 11 it's not at all those places, but it's going to be, and it's gonna be very soon,

right? So seven months ago, when we launched, I knew he had like, this is it. We have the product, we have the brand. This is it like the business plan was to slow down to speed up right, because there's me in my apartment working out of a tiny co packer, right that had no capacity. And so I had to go build an executive team to go build a supply chain out to go get distribution. I had to go kind of take the product from the website into New York, and I wanted the first kind of launch market to be New York City. And I was like, I had to go do all these things, knowing that the real opportunity,

the rial kind of value is kind of navigating this kind of regulatory grayer to arrive on the other side. The winner. And I think the winners like we're talking Red Bull monster Anheuser Busch scale, right? That's what I believe, and

I do as well. The look I am is it's just so cool that the stars line for us. Tha yeah, to hang it. A, um, if you were to give a sense of like, let's say, a scale 1 to 10 of the gray area, 10 being pure black, one being completely clear, and it's and it's absolutely clarified Where would you say we are in in that

that were still out like a four. But it's I'm 100% confidence. It gets to a one. And so the

way Where was it, like, seven months ago? Here to

give it another seven months. I mean, when something's a controlled substance, one would think that's

like a 10 right? Was it controlled? And so when you launch was a controlled substance that said, we launch in October

the hemp farming outcast

in December. December

That's right, eso without which was perfect timing. Yeah, I was one of these things Where if we would have launched in June or July when I intended Thio it would have been too early. And, you know, February have been to wait. We launched the brand of the perfect time right before the front. That home for me. I passed, right. So you got all this press and got all this kind of buzz and demand. Uh, we'll still have a payment. Processors sat down, had $300,000 stuck in paper towel, right?

Like I knew exactly was a calculated risk. Right? Right. Um and so the way I've always thought about the regulatory and like why I'm so confident we get to a place where you know this all goes away because fundamentally hemp farming is X. The hemp Farming Act is a red state farmers built like. Why would you tell all these farmers to cultivate Hamp and then not ultimately enable the biggest demand source for that which is civilian humpbacks? Tractors of food additive? It's just like we live in a capitalist country, and that's clearly where this is going to be going. So that's the first point

in the second. And the information and research continues to point to it being beneficial and far better than going straight Thio doctor and getting Xanax. Holy shit!

Is that better? There's that And then I'm very involved on the regulatory front of the board of directors of the U. S. Had Brown Table, which is the main kind of industry group that represents the largest farmers and processors. And, uh, you know, uh, CBD oil companies, for example, and we're we're very engaged with the FDA on the various state levels work with lobbyists in multiple states and and so what you see is that this is not an issue like marijuana or like Jewell, where there's like a group on the other side saying this should not be okay. And there's legitimate arguments on both of those products in categories where, yeah, there's not even a committed that you shouldn't just be able to buy a joint at a bodega, Right?

Like that makes sense to me. But with CBD, it's yours. Not a group on the other side opposing it. It's only about the details. So, like, what is this? How much C B should be in a kind of recess? What should the labeling be? Ah, should that CD be extracted from hemp grown in the U. S. Or abroad like it's just like working out the details. And so we're still going through that process, right?

And, you know, I think there was a lot of it was a misconception that the Hemp Farming Act would be 100 clarify things. It just shifted the regulation from one agency, the Drug Enforcement Agency, to the FDA, right? And so we're going through this process and again the pieces in the business ran has been like I have to just, you know, continued to build the brand to arrive at the other side where we're now the default first choice When you're Walmart choosing about this caddy or

you're choosing recess, right? And what is what are the implications of this regular? So you're you know, you're in the bodega in New York City, but not here in San Francisco way just

so that the implications are that kind of the launch strategy was to focus on kind of more independent businesses. Okay, kind of looking regional change chains and not to some products like Launch and whole foods. Like we're not one of those. I also don't think brands anymore are built in whole foods. Like the reason New York is the best. It's they always in beverage. They say, if you can win in New York didn't win everywhere the best beverage market because of the condense ity of it. And like the up and down the street accounts like bodegas air, this incredible things that were in 2000 accounts in New York already, right? So it just feels like it's everywhere, right? But in addition to that, one of the most interesting things we've learned about recess is that people There's a group of people that drink it every waking hour of the day, and there's many different types of recess that people are looking to take.

There's a group of people drink it right when they get up in the morning to start the day calm and a group of people who drink it right before they go to bed. I kind of go to sleep again. Like I described the kind of the core use cases like 10 a.m. to 4 p.m. At work at lunch as a substitute for your two coffee. Ah, lot of people use it before after a workout because as like anti inflammatory benefits, it's a great substitute for alcohol. Like you describe. It's a great mixer with alcohol. It works. Um, come about at a high end restaurant as, like, kind of a substitute for a CM Pellegrino soda. There's no other drink besides kind of water. Coca Cola and I can think of that makes sense, and as many different types of accounts you're a total addressable market for a beverage is a function of like when someone could drink it and where they should be able to buy it. In the case of recess, we're seeing incredibly strong results across every minute count type, which is a very, very

interesting What are some of the below the line fax? Because it's above line version is so amazing.

Oh, just the bloodline is like, just not the regulatory right. It's just like we know people want this. We know people. It makes them feel good. We know distributors and retailers and the chains want it. It's just about the regulatory

well. And so at the four right now, on the way to one real quick, you know what? What is the optimistic, optimistic case for it to be at a one very clear. It's clarified. It's completely it's grass is ready to go. What do you think is optimistic in the pessimistic time range for that? So,

um, what's happening is the FDA is getting pressure from kind of state legislators to to clarify the federal position as relates to see Vivian Hemp extract, and they basically said by the end of the summer, the early fall, they're gonna at least come up with an update. In the meantime, states are acting on their own to implement state regulations uh uh. So Bill's about to pass in the state of California, called a B 2 28 that would fully allow for the addition of CBD inter food and beverages. A similar bill just passed in Texas, Florida, Illinois. Ah, there's a pill in New York that we've been very engaged with. That has some components that were not supportive of, um and so you know,

one of those components. So New

York they're basically saying that there's a required There's the hemp hemp farm lobby made an art like argued to say that CBD can be is approved to be added toe freedom drinks, but it has to be extracted from hemp grown in New York state. Well, there's not enough hemp in New York state to satisfy all the demand, and moreover, we require a very special kind of processing and format. What how's the water soluble? That technology does not exist in New York, right? So they think they're acting in there, their own interests when they're really not, and it's arguably even anti. It's not constitutional because there's always kind of interested commerce issues that it brings up. And then this bill passed with these issues that the governor doesn't support, right as they were going into there Summer recess, which is really until January. So we are in this state of limbo in the state of New York. Truthfully, where you know we have 2000 counts were part of the largest distributor. Our manufacturing is in the state of New York, and yet we're still in this gray area.

Recesses in recess. Well, the regular my babies, there might

be, Ah, recess. There might be something coming that, well, uh,

reference this situation. That is a CZ prices. Well, um, I wanna make sure we touch on in the regulatory. I can't imagine what that is like for CEO, just kind of living in one. It's a six eyeing space where it's like, Well, if you win, it's because you made the bets when it wasn't obvious. That is, almost by definition, how you win. But at the same time, it's it's like, provisional existence of like All right,

we know we have something special, but there is something above us that is deciding off at least that in the interim fate. Then it sounds like the the kind of medium term or short term fate. Um, what is that? What kind of mentality does that leave for the founder and creator of the company that employees,

It's really tricky. Like we know we're over 30 full time employees Now I've had an extremely experienced executive team, you know. My c 00 You know, 25 years CPG exact building sold a company sold because she had just hired the head of supply chain from by. She was VP of operations at which was a $2 billion opposition by Dr Pepper Snapple Group that my head of sales in the East Coast, Bill Vita Coco, How to sail on the West Coast is ah, 40 year. Exactly. No, I made a strategy. My strategy has been like, I'm assuming, you know, we're preparing for this This world in which all of this is clarified, we've met with every national retailer were lying up distributors around the country.

That's why I've been kind of eight cities. So we're going, um, but kind of managing your burn rate, you know, raising sufficient capital to get to the other side, knowing that the the potential outcome here is so large, like it's it's it's very tricky. Um, and you know, you you know, you're betting on our ability to kind of navigate thus and arrive on the other side. But again, I think the opportunity is so large here, um and we know we have something that consumers have a deep, deep, deep connection to that. We think the right business plan is to be kind of fairly aggressive.

Well, the last thing I want to touch on with you, Ben, is what does the research say about CBD just to catch up a listener that maybe he's heard nothing about it, or at least just has heard the headline views of whether it's legal or not legal, Um, and and or thinks Okay, CBD is marijuana. What do you mind just walking through the research and and the actual just kind of technical side of C. B

s. So what it's really doing is like interacting with a nervous system in your body called your endo crab annoyed system, um, which helps your body kind of maintain equilibrium in homo Stasis, so to speak, which we describe. It was like balance. Um, and there is just there's not that much research on it. truthfully or there's just starting to be because there's a controlled substance until a year ago, right? And so ah, there unfortunately hasn't up until recently, there hasn't You haven't been able thio that much research on it, But, you know, there's a number of papers around kind of the benefits towards kind of stress and anxiety.

Uh, 80 d n a T h d. Inflammation is another kind of big value proposition that our brands not focused on, but I think is a big kind of use case for CBD. Um and so I think you know, one of the interesting things that CB is that there's just so many different ways it's going to be used, right? Like, I think someone's gonna make a great brand focused on kind of, you know, the fitness recovery, right? Like we overtime like we don't really talk about this, but I think there's many recesses for us to create both, you know, consumables.

So we're gonna launch. We're gonna do an alkaline water, everything iced teas, interesting dissolvable tablets for on the go use case, an additive for coffee, smoothie trees, cocktails, a recess for your on premise. Like, you know, at a bar on draft. We think we can do that all. And then there's multiple types of recess. You consume your mind right now. Let's just our instagram and our events. But,

like our website's gonna become entirely kind of editorial content platform. And we want to create different kind of digital recess is that people are taking right, and that might be, ah, profile of, ah, creative that inspires us. Or that might be some psychedelic, meditative experience. But those are all different forms of recess, right? And so I think beverages. It's very interesting category because of the high frequency of use and purchase that drives you to market that using content and experiences. It's arguably the best kind of category on the planet to build other businesses on top of right because I can invest in kind of creating content and these experiences that I can then monetize in the future,

right like I have, it's it's pretty damn in Red Bulls, done in a phenomenal job of creating content for, for kind of the alternative, extreme sports, that is Red Bull TV. I mean incredibly compelling content. Um, yeah. I

mean, look at Red Bull is a content marketing company. An experiential marketing company. That monetize is they're selling cans, right? And, like, we're I think is Red Bull was created, like, 40 years ago. Like we're taking that strategy. I think we're the first, like, digitally native beverage brand. At scale

for sure. Yeah. Um Well, awesome in is ah, Super super helpful. Is there? Is there a port of the I feel like I'd have to ask from just Is there a part of the the chemical components side of CBD that worries you Of the little research out there is there? Is there? Is there that component in in your kind of mind that weighs on you like OK, what could we find out

now to be I mean, fears. I think that that I think the biggest risk to the industry to date on and why I'm very pro regulation is kind of bad actors like I want to be regulated. I I think kind of quality and compliance eyes something we've taken extremely seriously and how we're kind of building our supply train from this point forward is recognizing that this category is going to be kind of more stringent than other kind of categories in the growth Christian stores. But I would argue caffeine is much more of an impactful drug, then see what he is. I would I'd be more worried about, you know, a 12 year old drinking a cold brew than a recess. And many parents kind of bring their Children into the store and give them recess. And kind of our position is we think it's gonna play like energy drinks where it's like suggested 18 18 plus. Um, but, you know, you definitely can't kind of for a toast on CBD. At worst, if you know if you have probably 50 100 milligrams,

you'll go to sleep, you know? But I don't I'm not worried about finding out kind of negative side effects that's conceivably possible, given how early recent it is. But, uh, that's not what I'm worried about. I'd be more worried about a bad actor spoiling it for

everyone. No. Awesome. Ben. Well, thank you so much for coming on. The podcast is great. Thio Thio here all this time is like fresh off the presses type of of information on one of the coolest brands I think we've built around the world right now, so I really appreciate coming on a podcast, a friend's and listeners. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want to hear more of these types of conversations, go over to your favorite podcast, app and hit, subscribe or leave us a review. Good or bad, we love hearing from people that that appreciate this type of conversation and want more of it.

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