Hello, friends and listeners below the line. At least, today's episode is brought to you by a little project of mine called Magic. Mind the world's first productivity drink. Want more creativity, more flow, more energy and less stress. Go to Magic mind dot Co. To get the two ounce shot that contains 12 magical ingredients that are scientifically designed to improve your productivity. Along with CEO's doctors, musicians, even Navy Seals. I take it every morning and have been for about six years after a trip to the ER from drinking too much coffee day today, and it is the single most important part of my morning ritual to do more and stress less. Listeners know that I got a pretty extreme lengths to talk about the science behind sleep diet Exercise alternatives to Coffee Stress management. New Tropics adapted Jin's anti inflammatories,

etcetera, and you can find the peer reviewed research on the ingredients of magic Mind on the site. To learn more, go to magic mine dot Co That's magic mind dot c o an inter promo code. Be TL for below the line to get 15% off and try it for yourself. I also wanted to tell you about metal. You probably didn't know it at the time, but Mata Lab has been these secret sauce behind products used by billions of people around the world with a B billions. They've been creating APS and products for over a decade with startups like Slack Coin Base, as well as industry leaders like Google and Uber, and I have been recommending them to friends and founders of companies for years, way before starting this podcast from delightful designed a world class engineering and everything in between. Metal AB works with teams of all sizes to sweat the details and build products that your users will love. I am a massive, massive fan of metal AB. They are one of the only agencies that I consistently recommend and have been since my friends at Coin based used him maybe six years ago and loved working with him.

There are a lot of agencies out there, but if you're like me and obsessed with pixel perfect products that people love to use, you've got to talk to meddle up, check them out and metal ab dot Co. That is M e T a l a B dot CEO metal ab dot c o. And when you get in touch, let him know that James sent you. And if you dig below the line, we'd love a review. That's how podcast platforms rank and suggest podcasts. So every review matters. And if you're one of the fine folks that have already left a review, especially all the five star ones who've gotten know that we appreciate and read every single one. It only takes two or three seconds. And we really, really appreciate so thank you.

Today's episode is with Andrew Wilkinson. I've been anticipating this episode for a few months now, and that is really anticipating meeting Andrew for a few years now. I'm a big, big fan is listeners no big fan of his agency, Metal AB. But I've been a big fan of them and him way before They reached out to advertise on the podcast several weeks ago, and it's because he's just, uh, he's an interesting guy. He has done things so idiosyncratically that there really isn't anyone like him on the Internet that I'm aware of from starting businesses at 15 and dropping out of college a few years later to pursue his entrepreneurial path. That sounds like a story you might have heard before, although those air exceptionally rare and their own right. But the part that you probably haven't heard before is a few years later, he's running five businesses at the same time. A few years after that,

he's He owns and runs 25 businesses, and he's done in a very unique, different way than than most entrepreneurial or investment minded individuals approach technology businesses instead of finding companies that he wants to invest in and deploy capital when they're just getting going and ride the wave that the founders will hopefully take the company on. They do things a little bit differently with his firm, tiny Capital, they actually looking to buy companies from founders and my. It may have been running for 567 years, and they're just tired and very similar to Berkshire Hatheway and what Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger on the public security side does where they find value based businesses that most people are overlooking. Andrew and his firm, a tiny capital, do this with Internet based based businesses You might not have heard of of many of these names, some of them. You have, like, dribble or metal ab, but some of them you you might have never heard of.

But underneath the hood, there really solid cash flow. Businesses that return capital back Teoh tiny and and their investors. And every once in a while, they also will invest in companies from Space X two superhuman. Their rap sheet on that side of things is pretty stellar as well. It's just ah, really interesting, unique take towards creating value on the web. And I can't wait for you to hear from Andrew himself on the story behind it and how he thinks through approaching this unique side of investing, buying there isn't a really good word for it. So just leave it at his approach to creating value on the web. So without further ado, let's get into it with Andrew Wilkinson. This is below the line. We're alive and true. Welcome to the show.

Great to be here. I'm a big fan and long time

listener. Oh, that is so That is so awesome coming from you. I've been anticipating this conversation for the last few weeks. Really? Actually, because we we had it on the books. Um, I won't tell listeners who you had to move me for, but I would have moved me easily 10 times over to get a meeting with who you got to meet with. So that is really, really cool. And, uh, and I'm glad we're able to get it back on the books a few days later.

Of course.

Yes, right? No, not No. But like I said, do not about like I wrote t on Twitter. I was like, Do not apologize. I'm way less important what we're gonna kick it off with. I'm gonna open up my drink here. What do you What do you have there to drink on your side?

So I forgot about your drink thing, and I would normally have saved my third cup of coffee, Um, for you. But instead, I'm drinking decaf. But it's a very delicious D count from Cafe Fantastico in the Korea PC. I era pressed it, and, uh, it tastes pretty pretty reasonable. I find decaf usually tastes like garbage, but this is a really nice

Are you pretty big coffee nut?

Um, you know, it's funny. I never I've always been into coffee, but I never made it at home until I had kids and made breakfast and all that kind of stuff and gun super into their oppress. So I absolutely love drinking. I never drank black coffee before. And now I drink black coffee out of an Arab press the recent morning. And amazing it tastes the way that being snow, which is, uh,

cool. Yeah, which is what you want. And that's actually where yeah, I'm drinking.

A lot of people drink like diner coffee, and they think that's what black coffee tastes like,

right? Yeah, Hair press, that's that's fancy. But it is. It's the way to do it. I am drinking a. I've never had this before, but this Ah, it's a company called Rebel Organic, and it is a pretty well established drink brand, but I'm drinking their gold label, Ultimate Super Herb elixir. Marcus Ray, she my Taqi Turkey tail lion's mane, Ash Lagonda, my in cocoa. This is one hell of a If I guess, Yeah, that's it's deserving

of about 20 minutes. You're gonna Teoh hold your

man. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And somehow that set off, Alexa. But I'm gonna take a sip and see what it Oh, that's good. That's really it's kind of like a spicy, spicy chocolate. All right, Well, cheers, sir. Chairs. Andrew,

chairs.

I want to kick this off with just asking you about your day. What is your day been like today? Leading up to this this conversation and afterwards and for listeners mentioned in the intro. But, ah, Andrew is a unique entrepreneur and is building essentially the Berkshire halfway. Ah, what what many call the Berkshire Hatheway off the Internet. Not just ah investing, but also purchasing companies as well as you've started a few yourself. Eso I'm fascinated by that approach to entrepreneurship. It's almost like a metter approach to to entrepreneurship. And I'm most fascinated by how it translates into your day to day. Speaking of, like today.

Yeah, so I mean today. Like most parents, I woke up with 60 morning to a baby crying and monitor, but that was okay. I went to bed at, like, 9 30 I had a great sleep and I hung out with my kids for a couple hours and mid the family breakfast and at a coffee. And, you know, during this locked down, my business partner and I have been really lucky. A lot of people are stuck working from home. We actually back in January, rented a house as kind of a backup plan and just in our neighborhood. And so me and my business partner are sharing this. Ah,

nice house on right on the water in Victoria, Canada, where I live with the incredible view of the mountains and all the ships out in the bed and stuff. So it would be a better setting toe work. Um, and I've just been here for a few hours and done call like a brainstorm call if the company were actually about to buy, which I can't share, but all announced in, um and just getting super pumped up about how we can help them grow and what the next evolution of that business looks like. But most my days air honestly, just on phone calls, talking interesting people, um, and either were just generally socializing, so connecting with other entrepreneurs and investors. Or maybe we're looking at buying the company or trying to put a deal together.

And that's really what my days composed of its like, superhuman email calls. And then lately it's been podcast interviews and Twitter and all that kind of stuff, but, uh, it's kind of it's nice. It's very different from when I was running five companies all at the same time. My days are very different

out, I bet. What is two thoughts come to mind? One is what would you like to do more of? And what would you like to do less of? And then I also want to ask how Kobe 19 has impacted that day. But starting with what you're currently doing right now What? What are the parts that you wish you could doom or of in the parts that you wish you could do less?

Yeah, I think, um, it's a double edged sword. Like I love I'm an extrovert and I love socialising. I love story telling. I love talking interesting people. And what I really have a challenge of is balancing socializing and phone calls and meetings, versus actually producing work and getting through my inbox. And if that's out of balance on either side, that I'm just kind of miserable. So if I spend my whole day on phone calls, that means all day, all evening I'm stressed that about my burgeoning inbox And if I do the opposite, it just means that the phone calls and meetings were stacking up. So I would really love to get to a point where I'm doing 30 to 60 minutes of scheduled time a day. I'm I'm down like I used to be back to back,

scheduled in 10 in the morning until four in the afternoon. And now I'm probably scheduled 2.5 hours a day, so I'm making a lot of progress there. But I just want to be less scheduled, like I'm when I read about Warren Buffett for the first time and you know, you, you here, here's this guy that's got 400,000 employees, did 70 businesses, and yet he doesn't have a calendar, and he just talks to whoever calls him and sits on his but reading all day. That sounds pretty good to me. So that would be my goal over the next decade.

Raidi honest, I don't think he has email either.

No, no. I don't even think

he has a smartphone. Yeah, is that it? Sounds pretty ideal, but equally impossible. And and the work that we're in at least the stage that Maybe you're on your way there. What are the parts that you that you did when you were running five companies there? Any parts that you miss And what the parts that you like? Good God, I'm so glad I don't have to dio that anymore. And I mean, the brutal, honest parts of just going from primarily operating and running to primate. I know. And maybe this is assumption, but I would assume you're now primarily investing and looking to purchase companies.

Yeah. I mean, when I was running, the business is day to day. The biggest thing that I hated Waas going into a meeting, needing something from somebody or having to put on a face. Right. So let's Sam super tired. I don't really want to be in the meeting, but I've got a flight to San Francisco. I have to be the client I have to be on after Still have to be hyped up. I hate putting that on, and I'm naturally somebody where, you know, I love meeting new people. I love selling people on ideas. I love all those things naturally,

but I hate being forced to do them. And so the beauty of my current schedule is almost any any single meeting of doing. I don't know the first anything. I'm just talking about his. They're interesting. Or maybe we're looking at buying the business or something. Um, and I can always opt out. I can always cancel day of. And when you're running a business, you just don't have that Optionality. You know, if you've got a trip to San Francisco planned and you've got a meat 10 clients, you got to go to those meetings and there's no opting out. And some people are totally designed for that. They get lit up about that kind of stuff.

I've just always been a sort of personal where I want to do the things that I feel dot morning, right? And so I'll look, you know, my assistant gets super annoyed cause every morning there, every evening, I'll send an email and say, Can we cancel this some of this? I just don't feel like doing that today, Um, and that's a serious luxury. Like my whole life has been designed around, you know, using building walls between the things I don't want to dio and the people I don't want to see, and the tasks that I don't enjoy have been very lucky in that

way. Amen. It's an ultimate luxury, but it is such you mentioned life design and it seems obvious that's how everyone should design their life. Is is towards that direction of leverage in every meeting that you have to where you're not de leveraged and you need something from every meeting that you have, but also the luxury of being spontaneous for whatever is needed that day and not being bold into three or four different people, helping schedule something from four weeks ago for that Tuesday and missing an opportunity.

I think as founders so often we think we need to be good at everything. So you know you think you need to because its sales and marketing. You need to know how toe read financial statements and you know you name it. It's not a old stuff in code, and I think people often don't realize that there's people who love doing all those things, and so when you empower someone else today them, they're happy, you're happy and it's win win. Whereas a lot of founders feel like they delegate sales to someone else and they feel guilty like they should be the one that's getting on the plane and doing that sale. And I always think that just doesn't scale. A soon as I found smart, awesome people and empower them. My life got better and their life got better.

And it's when, when? What are the areas that you are uniquely great at that you've realized? OK, this is This is where I need to actually get involved

figuring Now I say It's like figuring out really simple growth lovers. We've seen one of the interesting things about, you know, my entrepreneurial history is for 10 plus years I ran metal AB and we consulted with all these Silicon Valley start ups, and we worked with hundreds of companies. And because they're start ups, many of them fail. And so we were able to sit at the table and see what didn't work. And then what did work? And we were able to do that hundreds hundreds of times, and so and then also we, you know, obviously ran our own businesses, went through all that, and so I think I'm pretty good at figuring out what's limiting growth in the company and then building systems and hiring the right people to achieved on growth and figuring out how to do it without pain. I think a lot of investors have this approach of like we're gonna muscle this through or we're gonna work harder. I always think,

How do we BIA's lazy as possible on We have everybody on the team and all the executives enjoy their life. And how do we also get that outsized growth? And I think you know, the idea that growth, this side, the effort is kind of ridiculous.

It's interesting. I remember taking one of the countless personality tests of I've taken in business and a few years ago, and one of them said James believes only good things come on the other side of hard work. And I thought, Well, that's obvious. That's kind of the the principles of of entrepreneurship or creation and it never occurred. That was the first thought. I was like, Okay, this is one of the 10 obvious statements in this personality test, and over the course of maybe six or 69 months, it kind of just always messed with me off, like, Why did it feel a need to say that. Is that not the norm? Does not everyone feel like that is the case?

Is it wrong? And And I started to really question the best things in my life have honestly come where I was just a very small part of it or it's been luck, or I've just been I mean, being a father with 2.5 year old, it's like, No, that best thing that has happened in my life has just been something that I that I thought Okay, I'll do that in my thirties. That's cool whenever it happens. And, um, I now really disconnecting the best things in life from this idea of extreme, exhausting hard work leading up to them

when the output of the success and the hard work is so rarely a satisfying payoff. Like I realized that I'm driven and that I have, I have a desire to play the game right. I wake up every single day, pumped up to run our businesses and invest and docked interesting people, and I love it. But that's actually the distracting game I play because it puts my brain into a flow state. My I actually don't really think that anything we do is gonna be remembered in 50 or 100 years. I don't sign any real meaning to. You know, a lot of founders get into this thing of like my company is changing the world and we're on a mission to do X and Y. I'm not like I always think like I wanna wake up in the morning. I want to work with interesting people on interesting problems, and the businesses need to think positive in the day. But I'm just hacking my brain. I'm just trying to get into the flow of state and feel good, and that what really matters is exactly you said it's having kids that's being with family.

It's being out in nature. It's going a walk. It's eating a delicious meal. You spent four hours cooking, Um, and that's been a big breakthrough for me over the last five years. For sure.

What is something on that in that realm of the amount of input, our effort being disconnected from result? What's something that you put a lot of yourself into over your career that didn't have much of a result in what's the corollary or they the opposite where you got to be lazy or you you didn't put a whole lot into it. But it had this outsized result. Do you have tangible examples where you like that? Is that principle in action?

Well, I mean, I think that in order to get to the point where you can use a small amount of effort to achieve something big, you have to experience the pain. So, like, who's a really dumb example? But if you're in the kitchen making dinner and you cut an onion and you don't know how to do it, it's really shitty experience. You're going to start crying your it's gonna take you 10 minutes to cut the onion. All the pieces were not gonna be uniform. The total pain in the ass, right, Right. And I did that for a while, and I always dreaded cutting onions. And then one day I went on YouTube and I realized,

Oh, this is how it chef cuts and onion. You do it in 30 seconds, and it makes a perfect uniform cut. And when I did that, everything was better, right? And so that's the That's a very compressed version of what I've experienced with starting companies. I've started companies with inherently bad margins or very, very competitive sectors. I've owned a restaurant. I've been through all that stuff and built up that scar tissue. And because of that scar tissue, I'm able to identify and short cut all of the pan right, and often it's just using a filter for an idea. So,

for example, if you come to me 15 years ago and said, Hey, we should start a restaurant I would know nothing about restaurants And to me it would be this cool, glamorous staying, and I'm a designer. I want to design the restaurant, do all the lighting, and that will be exciting. But I wouldn't realize that it's almost impossible to make money. Structurally, even the world's best restaurants don't make very much money, and that it's a business that requires 14 hour days and all sorts of challenges. And so for me, it's been a process of going around sticking Lee, you know,

sticking a fork into an electrical socket and a variety of different ways and then learning. And now if somebody came to me with the restaurant, I would just immediately put the too hard pile. I'm just like there's no way like I love your idea. Here's some feedback on it, but I can't engage with that, For example, is like real world examples. I started Ah Saas software company in 2009. I was obsessed with getting things done and to do this, and I was frustrated because I was using this great to the list software on me Focus. But I couldn't interact with my team. I couldn't delegate to them. And so just on a lark I pulled one of our developers aside and we started building what became flow and flow. Originally, waas basically a way for me to do the GT methodology with my team.

And then it evolved into project management software and what it is today, right? I just year after year put millions and millions and millions of dollars into it over time and the critical mistake I made Waas I bootstrapped the business that had venture competitors. So asana came out founded by a billionaire. They raised hundreds of millions of dollars and I would always say, Well, we're gonna have a better product or we're gonna be better designed and what happened was they outspend us and marketing. They got more attention in the press. They became the name they came up because they've gotten all the funding and validation. And even though I think we had a better product for a few years, before long they started having this huge death team and they were able to add all these features that we just couldn't compete with. And then eventually, years in their design got pretty good. And so that was an experience for me, where I poured tons and tons of money into it. And at the end of the day,

you know, Yeah, we have a have a good business. But we went into battle against this huge army with 10 of us, uh, carrying sticks and they have machine guns on. And so comparing that to businesses like Dribble where we went out and we bought this wonderful, wonderful business, we identified a few opportunities to grow it. We hired an amazing CEO and all in, we probably spent a few months of work on that, putting the deal together and working with CEO and then I literally the CEO is so good and the management team is so good and the business is so exceptional that I only speak to the CEO on the phone every 4 to 6 months. And the actual outcome of that business is twentyfold what that SAS company flow would ever be, Um And so that's an example of something with high leverage, much lower effort and a much higher outcome right on. Those are the kind of opportunities that I love. I'm still passionate about building and starting stuff, but I look at that as a hobby,

right? Yes, it is. Man. That is 11 hell of a corollary where you were able to move it toe. Ah, phone call every 46 months. How do you use that, Teoh Recreate a replicate that in the future what goes through your mind when you're looking at an opportunity? You know, that comes across your desk where you say, OK, how do I learn from this? What is the framework to replicate that type of input output ratio?

Well, I mean usually were buying really, really simple businesses. There's this great Charlie Munger quote. Uh, Ray says fish where the fish are right, and the idea is you don't want to go to efficient hole, with thousands of other fishermen crowded around the edges, elbowing each other, all trying to use different specialized rods that are really expensive to try and catch a few big fish. Yeah, there's some big fish in there. They're huge. And if you catch one, it's like it's very valuable. But there's so many fishermen that it's hard to catch me fish, what we like to look for us,

the small, quiet fishing hole off to the side with a few sleepy fishermen. They're using normal rods and just quietly get, you know, one medium size special day, right? So instead of going to the big fishing pond with crypto when a R and B R and you know just its consumer social, all these high risk, super challenging, venture backed businesses, we like to go off the beaten path and look for the sticky control fishing hole. So, I mean, the businesses that we are buying are kind of They're kind of quiet and simple. I mean, we own.

We own a bunch of job boards, job boards. They're very sleepy business. We own services, businesses. So, um, certain agencies that kind of stuff we own digital goods. So, like, um, we own the largest partner in the shop by ecosystem for absence steams newsletters like just kind of like, straightforward things that maybe aren't the best. Business is over 20 years, but are good businesses for the next five or 10. And you know,

we buy them for a price where we don't need to. 10 x them. We don't need eventual return, weaken, be comfortable making, you know 15 20% a year

and have so many questions about that. What is the 1st 1 is what's one of the companies that you recently purchased that you can talk about?

We bought a Really. We don't want a business called Meteor about four or five months ago.

Yeah, there went through y Combinator, right?

That's right. It's really it's really funny, like they so they, um, was founded by a team of developers. They we went out and launched a framework that enabled developers to build Web APS really quickly, and they built a hosting platform is part of it, and they went up to Andreessen and they raised like, $50 million so that put them in a position where they had to either deliver, you know, a $500 million.1,000,000,000 dollar outcome for sale or nothing. And what happened was that original business called meteor actually did really well. It became quite popular, and they had this hosting platform where all sorts of companies would use it to post their Web maps, including Nike and Honeywell. Lots of big Fortune five hundreds. But it was only growing 30 or 40% a year,

which in venture land is nothing. I mean, you might as well be dead at that point. And so they're bored, basically said, Look, you guys need to have it, and they went off and they were very successful. They pivoted to a new platform and they forgot about meteor, and it was kind of this Worf in business within, and we got a reach out from a banker and were ableto by that. And it was one of those things where it's such a great story for us because you have this business that somebody else doesn't really value. That's a bit of a cast off in an orphan because their venture backed and were able to take it rehabilitated. Though the team round it and have this wonderful business that we can own for the next you know, 10 or 15 years on. It's just a It's a great story for us,

right? We don't want to be the Trop shop that takes distressed startups and then lets them die. We like Teoh, rehabilitate them and get them. Get them moving again. So it's been

really fun for us. Yeah, just to spend two or three more minutes on that. A specific example. So a banker reached out to you toe to sell toe. Tiny must have obviously had tiny on their, you know, co call list. Did Did you have Teoh completely overhaul the team? Did you just buy the technology? You mind spending two or three minutes just walking on the like the very low level brass tacks of how you buy it, how much you'd be, Dione 100% outright. And then also, how do you find the management team for that? Because that's and that seems really difficult to find any great operators. And in the world we live in today, much less doing it across a portfolio of companies.

Yes, So we pretty much only by majority so well by usually 80 to 100%. Occasionally, if we want a partner, a someone and kind of explore a larger acquisition will buy 50 Teoh to 60%. But usually it's full control. Um, in that case, it was a unique. Usually when we buy a business its founder led, the founder is a little exhausted. They want to move on to another project, and we're one of the few groups that's actually comfortable operating businesses. You look at private equity and venture or you know, other investors. If the founder wants to leave their freaked out, they don't want that.

They want the founder locked in for five or six years. And so what we do is basically say, Look, we're totally comfortable. You love the business you've built, and we're gonna preserve the culture, preserve what you're doing, and you know, if we can, we'll try and help help your team amplify it, and we'll find a great new CEO or leader to run the business. And there's actually this huge world of people who love taking things from 10 to 50 right? So there's a lot of entrepreneurs love dessert of one often that entrepreneur can take it toe, you know, 1 to 10. But there's a lot of people who are kind of that executive that love the next level of growth and excel at that.

And we find that often Founders have a bit of my o pia in specific areas. So it's like, uh, you know, we always say to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail on dso every founder as a hammer. So it could be that their product obsessed like me, where they always look at everything as we're gonna add a new feature or once we lunch, you know, this new product offering battle drive growth. And then there's other founders were obsessed with marketing so they could have a mediocre product. You'll have marketing it or selling it or, you know, whatever else. But that creates opportunities for us. When Founder leaves.

Often there's areas of the business that were neglected sometimes its marketing or sales, sometimes its financing operations. And so because we've done this so many times, we've run so many businesses, we're usually able to identify two or three simple things we can do just to improve the results of the business Now with meteor, it was different. We didn't have that team, and there is literally nobody on their side who is running the business full time it. Like I said, it was kind of a cast off in an orphan. They had, like a part time support person basically doing it, and they're maintaining the code base. So we have the hired that new for that. Unfortunately, we had an exceptional CEO who actually runs one of our other businesses,

and he put his hand up and said, Hey, I think I can run this as well And so you put it into his portfolio and went out to the community and identified phenomenal engineer. That would be his right hand a man. And they've been ableto totally redo the marketing and reinvigorate the platform, and we'll see how it goes. But it's all looking really good. So

far. That's awesome is and it is such a different, a different tack. You mentioned Charlie Munger and we chatted about him before. How obsessive are you about about following the wisdom of Warren Buffett and his partner, Charlie Munger, who I think we share a mutual love of the wisdom of Of Charlie Munger. Maybe more so then then Warren Buffett. And in my view, um, I just his articulation and distillation of pretty complex thoughts into, you know, simple forms where I'm like Wow, yes, that is that That feels so right. I've never heard it articulated. How much do you obsess over them as kind of has tips of the spear of what they've done and the larger equity side of things.

Ah, value investing, being really patient, finding businesses that are often overlooked. How much of an influence have they been in the model for tiny and for you personally

huge. I mean, I like I really like biographies. And one of the things that made me sad over the years is when I have somebody I idolized like some very successful business person. And then I read a biography about them, and they seem miserable, like they've sacrificed everything, including their personal life, to achieve the success that they have achieved. And so I spent a lot of my twenties reading all these biographies and just going like, Oh my God, like I don't want to be one of these maniacs who has Ah, you miserable family and their kids don't spend any time, um, and all that kind of stop. And so when I found Buffett and Munger, I went,

Oh, my God, these guys actually seem tohave nice day to day lives, And yet they've exceeded almost anybody else professionally, like they're the most. Warren Buffett's the fourth wealthiest person in the world, and he seems to actually like what he does. And I have, ah, enjoyable day and do the fence he wants. And so that's how I initially connected with what they do. And I just went down the rabbit hole like I spent probably seven or eight years ago. I just read everything I could possibly find on Buffett and Munger. And Munger is super interesting mongers. Like the little known sidekick. He's Warren Buffett's business partner on Buffet.

You know he's very polished. If you listen his interviews, he says the same thing over and over and over again. Munger is like jazz saxophonist. He was just like you know, all over the map and says all sorts of interesting pains very broadly read, and I I just find that almost whenever anyone, any entrepreneur investor says which I read. I mean, I really just recommend, like, a compilation of quotes from Munger, because it can really summarize all the key lessons in business on. And I just love the way he thinks I, um if there's one thing I'd recommend, it's to read Warren Buffett shareholder letters and, you know, quotes or talks by Charlie Munger.

And I love his talk he gave on the 24 cognitive biases that lead to human misjudgment is basically just like, what are the underlying operational structures of your mind that will leave you to make mistakes outlined

them totally that since so I listen in the car audio version of it over and over and over again for like, six months after we we've had a like a negative business experience, and I look back And if we had just listen to that, we never would have had that experience. So it was So it's so foundational

for me. What are some of those biases that that stuck with your that you think you're more prone, Teoh, uh, to trip up on

the big room for me is consistency and commitment bias. So, basically like I'm somebody who didn't get really excited about an idea. And I'm really optimistic. And so when I meet somebody I like, I naturally just want to help them, and I want to say yes. And fortunately, my business partner, Chris, he's not necessary. The opposite is also very optimistic. But he's the break, so he'll be like, Whoa, whoa, whoa.

You know, you're gonna have your skis. You're moving too fast on this. But what I used to do is I think I would just be too positive and I make statements about a deal or ah, higher or whatever it waas early on, and then I would feel that I haven't contemplated a properly and I'd regret it and it, but I'd be still stuck down that track. So, you know, an example might be I meet with a startup that wants me to invest, you know, let's say like a venture investment or something. And I'd say, Oh, my God, I love what you're doing.

All man, this is This is genius, you know, Would you accept a $1,000,000 investment? And I'm I'm just like throwing that out cause I'm excited. But then later on in the day, I'm going like, Oh my God, I can't believe I said that. I can't for that. That's crazy. But I feel that I have to do it because it's awkward to back owed. And, you know, I don't want to deal with that. And so I've had to learn to really not make public statements unless I'm 100% bought into them because it'll work my thinking and kind of forced me down a path I don't want

to go on. Right? Yeah, the the most powerful words I've I've learned a really embraced the last few years or I don't know. Then I think about Charlie Munger is list of to two of those things that commitment, bias as well as the say something bias. Ah, the story of you know bees will communicate with each other. Where there there is Paul in based on a dance, they do a little dance and then the the hive confined at the direction except when the pollen is above them. If it's above them, which flowers being above them is just never happens in nature. So when they're presented with a scenario that they're not equipped to have a dance for it toe to communicate. Then they do this erratic dance that sends all of the bees that you know this, I'm sure from the speech but sends all of the bees erratically in all different directions because the B feels I can meet. It needs to say something about the direction and cant just say nothing. And I think about how I'm so prone to just hence starting podcast. This is quite appropriate. I'm so prone to just I want to say something toe want to contribute something to the conversation, and especially

when I look at Munger, he was such a good job of just saying I have nothing to say like if you like it. Did Berkshire Hathaway, a GM? We're in Buffalo stationing really intelligent or someone, Let's see. Someone asked him a question that he'll say, I have nothing to add on that topic, right, And that takes real balls right for somebody to be a thought leader, and they're up there in front of hundreds of thousands of people. I often think like when I'm on these podcasts. If I could ask, question would be pretty hard for me just to say I don't have anything interesting to contribute on

that topic, right? And it's ended. The in the kind of combination of the two are when I do find myself just contributing just for the relatability or the smoothness of the conversation, or to sound smart for two things air having won, I often won't sound smart. It would be just completely pull out of my ass, but to it also then sets my mind up to some commitment. Like when when asked about perfect example where I'm just breaking this left and right is trying to articulate with friends or on Twitter like what I think is gonna happen with with a Corona virus and can't help myself, but to because it's the job to think about the future, to try to, like, dissect what I think will happen the next 34 months. And then I've realized in the last 23 weeks the things I said a month ago, two months ago. Holy shit, I am really cognitively biased towards those.

You can hear it, too, like when you're listening to a podcast and people just keep saying, Oh yeah, that's really cool or whatever it is, it's like filler nonsense nothing talk. There's a just to pull the Munger thread. There's a really great example. He gives me talks about the famous physicist Max Plank, and the story goes that Max Plank is traveling through Europe and he has a chauffeur. And as they go and give talks and all the different cities, nobody knows who Max Plank is. I mean, I mean, all the physicists know who he is. They don't know what he looks like. And so,

as the chauffeur goes and he watches more and more and where the speeches Max playing says, I feel tired tonight. Can you go up and give my speech tonight? Do you remember? And it goes up and he delivers it without hitch. Did somebody says, Oh, excuse me and ask some complex physics question and he says, Please ask my chauffeur,

right? It's so it's so elementary. It's so elementary. You can ask my chauffeur.

Yeah, so he has no depth, right? And I often think about that like there's so many topics where Aiken, I can say something in sound smart, but if you dug just a little bit deeper, I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about. and I always hate doing anything where I have to make a statement about something where you know, you make some something some common about the Fed or whatever. And then if somebody actually knows what What you're about the top of your talking about the dig in and then all of a sudden you're like me out here This horrible, right?

I'm a man. I'm the same way and get I recognize that could just be so tempted to say something for the Charlie Munger bias. But it's only been recently that combined it or at least realized the real opportunity cost is then it's not just filling the time. It's now I'm locked in, somehow entranced by some bullshit answer I gave because now that second cognitive biases has taken root of Okay, now commit to, um, to what you've already been saying. I pair that with Jeff bases. Quote of my commitment is not to consistency. It's the truth and and gives him the chance to change his mind. You know, the next day on a decision because in

his words, is committed. Agree about commit

Yeah. Okay, Well, I would love to ask just one of my go to questions is tell me three stories about Andrew Wilkinson that have helped shape who you have become. As you sit there today could be professional, personal, three stories in your life that have helped shape who you've become.

Mm. Okay, So when I was, like 15 my were living in Vancouver. My dad is an architect, and his firm had been struggling a little bit. And my dad came to me and my brothers and he said, Guys, we're gonna move to Victoria. And I don't know if you know about Victoria, but this incredibly beautiful city on the far west coast of Canada. But it's very small and very sleepy and a lot of, ah, newlyweds and nearly deads. Lots of old people and young couples with families. And so for me, moving from a city with millions of people and lots going on a small town was a total bummer.

Um, and I kind of that's obviously it was end of grade nine and we moved, and I had this summer of months where I didn't know anybody. I had no friends. I didn't know the city, and I was just really you know, as a teenager. Any big change like that, it's super hard. But it's really interesting because I had nothing to do. It forced me to learn new skills, and one of the things I had was an old computer and an Internet connection and so kind of like a kid. You always hear about these kids who are way more creative because all they had to play with was a box, something. The kids that have a 1,000,000 different toys, they're less creative.

So I just had a box. I had nothing to do. And because of that, I ended up learning how to build websites. And I connected with this kid in Hawaii and we ended up starting a tech news site, and that was my first business. That was like how I got started running cos I was totally by accident, but it only happened because I was stuck in this boring city with nothing to dio and, uh, an Internet connection. So that was a huge Houston for me.

Were you always attracted to technology and gadgets and I detect Before that

obsessed, I was totally obsessed, Like I I I worship Steve Jobs. I was obsessed with apple, I would watch all the keynotes. I mean, this is in the late nineties to Steve. Jobs had just come back and I was the kid that would go to the local Max store, and I would stand there, and I would literally celebrate these computers, even though I didn't work there like I was so obsessed that, um, I just I just loved

it. Yeah, I was very similar store. My grandfather's architect and I remember taking an aptitude test saying that that should be an architect, you know, becoming a product designer because it just didn't have aptitude test, didn't have product designer or software design and and, ah, the repertoire of jobs, I guess. But but But I was obsessive about any new gadget that would come out. I mean, I was they would end up collecting dust, cause I would just get going to the next one. But I had probably three or four different Palm pilots before they were ever connected. Internet was just obsessed with the manuals of anyone in our was the youngest of five. Anyone in the family that got a new device,

I would just learn it left and right My first job was 14 was repairing computers and in building custom computers, just loved it and never really took it totally for granted. Thought everybody was obsessed with. I mean, when you get into that world, it really does feel like, OK, everybody's obsessed with every single Meg. Meg, Really?

It was funny, because you also like to remember like when saying like someone's a nerd was like an insult. You know, back then it was not necessarily cool, like there was lots of people who were into it, But it wasn't as mainstream is, is today. If you were into going on the computer, that was like, You're kind of

a nerd, right? I mean, my friends, even in college, jokingly drunkenly one night called me Go Go Gadget and I was a total shame of

that does not sound cool. No, I it's funny you mentioned Palm Pilots cause the first week that I went with, I started school. I had a Palm Pilot that my dad had given me. It was like a old palm three or something like that, and I'm starting school, and I know that a Palm Pilot is nerdy, and so I hide it, but I have it in my backpack. Don't show anybody. And I go into P class first e class, and as I'm putting my bag into the locker, I don't use a lock. And I noticed this kid next to me looks at the Palm Pilot as I put it into the backpack. So we're going to do P e. We come back and I go into my locker and I feel for the Palm Pilot and it's not there on,

so I'm totally embarrassed. I'm just, like, write, read and I go up to the gym teacher. Who is this, like, huge fridge of a man? And I say, Ah, Mr Johnson, you know, I lost my pomp, a pilot. And he goes, What pistol,

pistol piles. What, you What are you talking about? And I say it's a Um huh. It's a mini computer, you know. It's worth a lot of money, and so he starts screaming. Bloody murder! He's like we are on lock down and he lines up, have no kid in the class, and he starts screaming. Do you have his pistol pilot? Do you have his keep saying it over and over and over again and everyone in the gym classes laughing. I'm free. I'm like,

absolutely dying inside. He doesn't find it, and we he says, Okay, you go to the principal's office or whatever and I leave the class and I put on my bag and I feel bump in the back. The bag And I realized the grandpa had slid into a back compartment that I It wasn't part of the main one, and so was there all along, and I had embarrassed myself. And as I'm walking down the hall, I just start hearing Palm Pilot Palm Pilot Evel Alegria. They're crawling me. I was in 10th grade. All the kids start calling me Palm Pilot, and I remember I was like, This is the worst thing that ever happened to anybody And I went home and I was like, My life is over and it was hilarious because I ended up it became a kind of embraced it and made a joke out of bed,

and I ended up being able to become student council president, and it was fine. But it was like one of those horrible, horrible, cringe moments in high school where you just think your life is over.

Dude will take it to bring it full circle. So I one of the other random things from one of the personality tests that I took this was that Airbnb and I. There is one thing that said, James, I believe strongly that only good things come on the other side of hard work. And the other thing that that it told me that was kind of random. Then I thought, Well, everybody must want this. This, um it's a Jayme and I should you not. This is word for word. Exactly what a like union disc psychology personality test said one of the 10 bullets was James requires the fastest computers,

and I remember being like, out of all of the really

colorful, high level shit that this is, this thing's telling me. It's telling me that I require the fastest computers. Why, that would Who would want a slow computer? And and it made me kind of Reese take stock of my life. It's so much of life is just be, you know, becoming reacquainted with your five year old self. And I remember when I was young. Yeah, I had like three Palm Pilots before, before they were were in before they actually even worked. And and definitely before anyone at school had one. I remember also, just when a new pair of Nike shoes would come out.

It wasn't the style, but I just thought, Okay, that has technology in it. And and I've I actually have had to dio pretty inordinate amount of work the last few years of trying to discover Why am I chasing this new technology? What is what it's It's not just, ah, hobby or fascination. There's actually something insecure and, um, and probably

on

and probably high signal that something is wrong, that I am chasing the fastest computers toe steal the words from from this personality test.

You know, if I look at what I do day today, it's like I do email and, uh, you know, once in a while maybe I'll do a broadcast recording or something that might require some computing power. But I have a Mac pro right, like it's like the dumbest thing I do not deserve to own it. But this beautiful object that I know it's the best, and I'll get caught up in that same stuff I recently bought um, like a stereo like a hi fi stereo because I wanted to spend more time just sitting and listening to music. And I am like the ultimate mark when I walk into one of those stereo places because they'll say like, Oh, well, you know, there's better stereo cable and you know you need, ah,

need a power balancer And you know, the Bowers and Wilkins If you just go one step up is either better, and I can't caught up in that exact same thing. And I tell myself that it's about having the best. And, you know, I kind of love these like beautifully designed products and stuff. But it's this bizarre o C. D. Obsession like it doesn't make sense. And I probably couldn't tell, you know, whether I'm using a Mac Pro or Anti Mac or a Mac book

for that. Yeah, it is. It's something that I thought was just a wrinkle of personality. Before realizing in the last few years, there is yet associate Ian, healthy obsession and and unhealthy comfort or security with just what is in front of me, and I am very much in the midst of of internal work on this

I with musing you When you When you get really into meditation or something, though, are you able? Are you able to conquer that? I

I am able to And the day yes, in the week. Yes, in the month and year Now it comes back is like my my forms of attachment, and I think it's, you know, it's always It's always layers and layers deeper than than the outward symptomatic behaviour. And, you know, the outward symptomatic behaviour is oh, magic keyboard for my iPad. Great. I've gotta have that $300 magic keyboard and the underlying I think a layer deep kind of going below the line of why I'm doing that would be okay. Want to be able to produce more work faster and and then the layer beneath that I could go through the layers. But to answer your question, two things come to mind. One.

My attachment. It's like a virus that I can just catch again and again. It it could be it's never inoculated, vaccinated or or something that's really overcome. Its I can being a really good groove for four months and have a lunch with a friend and just it triggers this foam. Oh, of what am I missing out on some professional, no external pursuit door or ego kind of vaccination? And then I'm like, back in that spot that

I did it because, like I I bought. So I really I've always been interested in tracking sleep for probably 15 years now, and I probably bought 10 or 20 sleep trackers over the year years and every single time I buy them have been in quotes. Purchase sits on my bedside after a week. It's uncomfortable, it's stupid. And then finally I got the were and I was like, Oh my God, this is amazing. I wear it every single night tracks my sleep It's perfect. I love that If I just waited and waited and waited until finally all my friends said, Hey, this really works and it's worth it. I would have saved a lot of money, and I wouldn't have all these, you know,

wasteful devices sitting in my closet or whatever, but I when I'm able to conk Red, be a meditation and noticing that kind of stuff, I have that same experience where it's better because I waited and I bought something that I was certain about and that I, you know, validated or whatever. But I also will slip up over the month or year if I hear that a friend of mine, you know, got the or a ring. And it's amazing that changing their life, I'm the guy who's gonna go order at

what we sit there. Well, it's it is Ah, either a sign that we're complete drones of whatever marketing is sent our way or that were, yeah, maybe cut from the same cloth. I'm also wearing an ordering right now in love it and And

why do you wear it during the day, though? Because it doesn't really do anything That's just

my wedding rings. So I just wear it as my wedding ring and and keep that keep things simple. But I think going back to the my morning meditation practice, I'm really thankful of my Our father taught us to meditate when we were really young and and it helps with overcoming that attachment. It's that daily inoculation from from that virus that I just can re catch so easily. That's on Lee analogy. I can think of It's just a virus that that I can re catch and anymore, a moment in time if I'm not inoculating myself daily. But also it's really helpful for me to do, to be aware of it, to just know. Hey, this is the symptomatic behaviour of something deeper. Let me try toe, figure out what is going on deeper and deeper in it, and I think that this is the core of it. I take for granted what's around me so much and and have this envy for what others have that if I'm not truly careful,

then I am blitzing. I am sprinting, running fast away from where I currently am and to have such discomfort with where I currently am that I'm constantly looking. Can something get me faster? Can something get further away from where I am or efficiently, whether it is that met magic keyboard or the you know, the or a ring and

better slowly I I just this morning that's really check to see where my magic keyboard was, Leonard Chip

there,

but it's interesting. Throughout this locked down, there's been so many things that I had delegated or tried to get away of away from or kind of hacked my way through to not do like walking the dog like I found a local chief dog walker and having kids and putting them to bed every night and going to work all day. It was this precious 30 minutes a day that I'd saved from not having to walk the dog. And when the crown of our stuff hit, we stopped the dog. Walker and I was so frustrated in the beginning of this, like the last thing I wanted to have my evening waas instead of, you know, reading a book, go for a walk but being forced to go for a walk, being forced to do all of the gardening in the kind of around the house tasks. That stuff has actually been really interesting because it's forced me to look inward and just fill my time with very simple tasks, and I'm actually really enjoying it. I thought I was gonna hate it, and I hated it for two or three weeks, but now I'm kind of going like,

man, this is really a silver lining. Was part of this locked down is that you just can't keep thinking about getting that next thing right you can't keep and and all the external signaling doesn't matter the car you're driving or your clothes or anything else. It's been really interesting, but of course they're still e commerce. So

yeah, well, it's, you know, the I want to ask you about that. The and I want to get back to the three stories, but, you know, two tweets of years that really have stuck out for me, one of one of which said this is months ago, he said. Travel is overrated or something. I'm paraphrasing that I would love frito, say a little bit more of because it's your travel is for the last. A couple decades has been the pinnacle of of what we perceive is like a great experience, And you just me a bluntly said Travels is overrated. And then recently you also said,

with with all of the Corona virus locked down, you've actually really been enjoying it about the majority people that have surveyed this is the here and now there. I don't think they're giving their assessment on the economic fallout, the health fallout completely. But about 80% of the 12 13 14 people that have asked if they're enjoying just their speed of life right now have said that they have enjoyed it in the last few weeks. My wife actually had a dream two nights ago that it was all over and she was really sad. And I went back to your tweet that you had posted maybe a a week or two ago in my head where you said, you've actually found it really relaxing. Do you mind? Maybe those two are connected. The lack of travel and and corona virus kind of just daily routines that you're finding yourself in. But do you mind explaining those tweets a little bit more?

Well, I think like the more the more we study diet nutrition, the more we realized that the diet that we used to eat 10,000 years ago is what works best for our bodies, right, paleo and all this stuff, the same thing is true with the format of your day and the structure of it. I don't think that humans were designed to you think about, you know, some 100 gatherer 20,000 years ago was not thinking about that big vacation they were gonna take they didn't leave Ah, 50 square kilometre area and that was adequate. And I think that we've all kind of created this hyper distracted environment where they were just anxious and contemplating way too many things where computers and technology have enabled us to have way too many subsequent thoughts and too many things that match together and our days air not structured in the way that they used to be. And I just don't think our brains have evolved in a big way. And so on the travel side, what I see a lot of and what I've observed in myself is people think they can't be happy until they're somewhere else. And they always have to be looking forward to the next trip and what I noticed for myself. Waas I would be pumped up about the trip for weeks, and I'd be thinking,

you know, the place I'm in sucks that can't wait till we go on this trip. Everything will be better when I'm on the trip and then I go on the trip and I'd be out of my context. I'm more likely to sleep badly, gets sick. I don't actually enjoy being on planes I don't enjoy being in airports. My wife and I were more likely they got on each other's nerves because we're out of our own context and there's always decisions to make around. Kids are you know, what's like we're gonna take or where we're gonna eat meat or whatever. And I actually found it. I just didn't enjoy the the now when I was on a trip on. Then what would happen is that come home and I would within three weeks, that Rose tent, the whole thing. And I would only remember the extreme highs, extreme lows.

And so I'd forget about all men Isha and forget about the bad sleeps at whitewash the trip and I go while it was not an incredible trip, can wait until I do it again. Um, and I remember Watch this really great Ted talk by Daniel Kahneman, where he basically explained this concept of how we must remember these experiences and how if we accurately remember them, we probably wouldn't keep repeating them. And so I see this. I'm not an anti travel now Michael Goto coli for crassness. That's like our one big trip. I'll go in small trips day trips. Those kind of things can be nice and refreshing, but I don't fetishize travel in the way that I used to. And I just see so many people. Looking at trips is almost instagram father, right? They're not even actually on the trip there.

Just it's about the photos they take. Or it's about sharing the experience and making people jealous. Um, And so when I stripped out travel and making that a big thing in my life, that made me happier. And then in that same vein, when I got off, Instagram and I stopped just constantly looking at other people's travel and imagining the rose tinted version of what they were experiencing. I just noticed I'm much, much happier. It goes back to that famous filter quote, hold hands. Misery arises from an inability to sit alone in a room,

and it goes exactly back. Teoh the 56 layers deep of Why do I need this magic keyboard?

And the funny thing is, you're gonna get it on. Do you currently probably don't use your I bet for work, and maybe you'll use a lot for the 1st 5 days or whatever, but then you're gonna go back to your Mac book because you need to use the desktop version of some app like it's just so funny. How many new gives knows I have that I get pumped up about and get the dope meathead from them. Forget about

right. It's gonna take another decade of persisting in my folly before I before I become wise because it's and and I know the progression has been in my twenties. I was able to and maybe this is similar to to your career arc. But I was able to exhaust all of these curiosities I had. I was able to be a CEO ah, 100 person plus company. I was able Teoh Ah, start much fun, not fun at all. I mean, that's the that is, yeah,

if you're like us. For some people, it's a blast and they love it For me. It's like your

mystery. Oh, it's and pure misery. And and you know, the difference between a palace in a prison is who has the key, and it it is just if you feel like Oh my God, I've got 12 meetings back to back all day. I have absolutely no agency in my day. It's the exact opposite of what I thought being a CEO was or having some material and financial success and and then misusing it towards scratching this it or that it's your traveling bunch. I

looks like it's like marrying for money, right? And you go, you go. And you married somebody super rich who you don't really like in your day to day stocks and you sacrifice your entire life. But you're rich, right? I think like it's insane to do something with your most precious time like your twenties and say, I'll be happy later. I like it just makes no sense to me.

Well, in its it has helped check those boxes to show how wrong my intuition has been on on that idea of, I need to not sit alone with myself. I need to get Chase X, y or Z, and I need to run as fast as I can to this place. That is not where

I am. So so whatever. Whatever the opposite, it's exactly that. It's whatever the opposite is. So when I'm on a trip, I fam fantasizing about going on the next plane home, sleeping in my own bed right on him at home. I'm man. Oh, my God. I'm trapped. And you know, how cool would it be to go on a Europe trip right now, Right, when I actually think about the British Airways flight over the crying baby behind me, I'm like,

That's hell in vain. But for some reason, I don't think about that. It's like it's like thinking about having a baby. And all you think about is kissing its toes and you forget about diapers and crying and sleep and all the other stuff people people were just so bad at predicting what's gonna make them happy and how they're gonna feel

right. Yeah, I feel like it's ah, it's just were driven by curiosity rather than our affinities. And we barely even develop our affinities of what we really love. Because it's just I mean, I remember reading a stat that the average American is subjected to 2800 advertisements a day. I mean, that's insane to think about, but that's what the number was. And I mean, if you, no matter how mentally resolute you are, very few people can withstand 2800 messages a day telling you. What you have isn't enough or what you are isn't

to go back to lie to people like the lock down. A lot of it is just there's less decision making right. There's no question of what are we going to do this weekend, and are we going to go over to these people's hosts for dinner? It's just we're gonna sit at home and we're gonna make our food. And if you think about it, it's probably akin to the life of someone living rural E 100 years ago, where there is no bar to go to. There's no restaurant to Goto. You just do your work in the day you cook a nice meal and you spend some time with your family and then go to sleep. And I think there's something really nice about that. And, you know, the other interesting thing I've been thinking about two is this may be the last time we experience this where you can make this individual decision, but there's no foam. Oh, I go to bed at nine kind of Friday right now,

and I don't even contemplate foam. Oh, because I know everyone else was doing the same thing, right? Um and that's just that's that's very unique.

It is very peaceful to not have those 2800 messages a day saying what year you should be doing this or that or this.

And I think a lot of misery just comes from decision making. Big done those studies where people get cognitively fatigued if they make more than 50 decisions in a day, right, and if they're making a lot of small decisions, they're making a lot of big decisions, really doesn't make any difference. And so a lot of the happiest people I know make decisions on a monthly or quarterly basis, and the only decisions they're making are simple, dated, a lifestyle decisions versus you know, you think about a CEO every day. There's a fire to put out on an emergency to deal with an important decision that will define the business, um, and the best CEOs with ones who can get above those clouds,

one BN to bring it back to to Warren Buffett, it said. Happiness is built on 20 decisions and a life and a lifetime, and hello and Unhappiness is is built on 20 decisions in a day and it's You're so right. I mean, it's and it seems unfathomable to think through. Can you really live life with 20 main decisions and just focus on those 20? And it's I think it's ah directionally correct. You know who you marry, where you live, what you dio and not changing it 20 times a day. I want to bring it back to your three stories. What is what is the second story? And maybe you've touched on it. But a second story has helped shape who you've become.

Well, I mean, another one was making the decision to drop out of school, so I went to journalism school. So it's basically run this website throughout high school, and I kind of skipped high school is really just running this website. I was totally obsessed with it, and I got to have always really cool experiences throat where, you know, I was negotiating ad deals with Microsoft executives. I was running a team of writers. We were, you know, reasonably well known news publication at the time. I got to interview Steve Jobs like hell these amazing experiences. And when I graduated, I didn't realize that I liked business to meet business was a thing my dad brought home in a briefcase,

looking kind of sad, like I want anything to do with that. And so when I was a biscuit, went to my dad and I said, You know, Dad, I want to keep in this Internet stuff. And I remember driving down the road, my dad pressed the brakes on the Volvo, planted a gas station and said, That's you. You're gonna be pumping gas. You need to go to school. And so when I thought about what I was doing, I went Okay, Well,

I guess I'm doing journalism. I'm reading this website and writing and stuff. So I go to journalism school and pretty much on day one. I was like, What am I doing here? This isn't at all what I'm passionate about, and I don't want to go work the newspaper. And so I made the very difficult decision to drop out, and to me, dropping out felt like failure. I felt like I was letting down my parents. I really didn't know existentially what I was gonna do, and it was really interesting. I had this kind of 3 to 6 month period. After I dropped out where I was living in my parents house, I was going to community college and trying to figure out what to do.

And to be honest, was really just wanna community college so I could live with my parents. I was friend free. They were total hard ass. Doesn't always said unless you're going to school, you can't live with us. And, uh, I did that, and the entire time I was watching all of my friends go off the college and they were going to parties. I'm living on campus and discovering themselves and growing their hair long and studying liberal arts. And I would go to these parties with them and everyone will be talking about Fuko and philosophy. And I just went, Oh, my God, I need this terrible,

terrible mistake. I missed out on this education and opportunity, but I used that time to double down on my business. And so what ended up happening? Waas. For those couple of years, I felt really worried that I'd missed out. But once all my friends started graduating from University a 22 23 24 I had already launched the business we already did. We already do. Millions of dollars of revenue launched all much further companies. And so in a way, it actually ended up being a blessing because I skipped the line and got ahead. But it was really sad. That was really it was really difficult for me at that time. Um, and I ultimately don't regret it,

but I do. You look back sometimes and go. I wonder what it's like to go to a really great school live on campus, you know, just kind of going a knowledge vacation. And I'm still intoxicated by that idea. Obviously, I can't go back a 50 get that experience, but I'm jealous of people who get to go to incredible schools and just I kind of do that for four years.

That's interesting to still have a little bit of regret when you know it was the right choice,

totally, and it completely worked out, and I don't know if I would have started a company. You know, when I was 19 I started my company completely out of necessity as a temporary and and I think that it fired graduated. I probably would have stuck to the track of whatever I had taken, and I never would have taken business. I just never connected that. I like business. To me, business was kind of do she and not something

I wanted to be involved in. Funny. Now you are out of anyone. I've been interviewed. You run the most businesses.

Yeah, it's so weird. Like I honestly, the evolution from accidental launch burner to ambassador is totally bizarre. And I out of all the people I know who are investors now, um, I don't know that many that started by actually starting a business often their these kids that from the age of 14 had their penny collection and knew about compounding and bought their first Apple stock it 15 years old. That certainly is me.

Well, I'm I am a walking cliche and that I'm a tech guy with a podcast that often talks about his psychedelic experiences. But I, um when I did I Waseca about two years ago, I remember the biggest take away from it had so many takeaways from and it's basically just all of my notes has have become one of the piece of Scripture Holy Scripture that I that I reference in life quite often born. The biggest takeaways was that when I was five and six and seven, I wanted to be an artist, and it growing up in Dallas, Texas, I just didn't know a single artist outside of a textbook. I mean, like, there was Michelangelo. There was, Ah, Divinci, but I didn't know a single artist that could make a living doing it.

And I didn't meet one until I really met my wife. 23 when entries and artists on was really sad, because I think that meant that I started Teoh slowly move towards Okay. There's like five ways to create your professional identity in its real estate. Are its oil and gas or finance just whatever. Dallas. At a doctor lawyer,

you ever do you ever think that you easily could have ended up in some other totally different industry if you just stumbled into it by accident? Let's say that you worked in a restaurant in high school and you love it. You decide you want to become a chef. You have anything like that where you have this alternate reality that you didn't take or you think you could have gone and a different path. You could have gone down like I often think we're so lucky to be intact because there's just endless opportunity. But there's so many things that could have been passionate about, like I was Ah for that period between. When I dropped out of school and I started my company, I was a barista. I loved made coffee like I got. I absolutely loved. I love talking to customers and making the coffee. The only things I didn't like waking up early. The pay was horrible and I hated cleaning, right. But other than those things, like I could easily have been a guy who started a cafe and I would have made a lot less money. It would have been a harder life, but it would have been this whole other life past.

Yeah, I I don't know. It's a really interesting question. I think my desire to be an artist. I think I chose the most artistic thing without knowing it. I think that the answer to the question to question is I probably for this time and place, I probably would not have found anything. I think I would have always like a marble rolling to the bottom of a bowl. I would have just found a way to here. Because when I do look back, I think there was this thought in my head. Okay, I'm gonna go Teoh University. I'm gonna study development economics, and I'm going to go to the World Bank. I'm going, Teoh Ah,

working in development for 30 years. And then my own behavior would just betray me over and over again. And I was starting things. Then I would start a nonprofit and then a for profit and day, a fellowship program that then took me to South Africa. And I mean that I starting technology companies in South Africa without knowing the words start up. It was just like, Oh, well, this should add This should obviously add a website to what this business that I'm working at Total is currently doing. And I know how to build websites. So let me let me go and do that. It was it was very, very far from quite literally, the opposite end of the world from from Silicon Valley and startups. I just had I was I didn't read startup news or anything like that.

There's a Stephen seen through all entrepreneurs, or it's just making things better. So when I was a kid like my mom, I wouldn't say that my mom is necessarily entrepreneurial. But when we would go to a restaurant or we, you know, interact with the business of any kind should always have some kind of critique of Here's the way this could be better. The lighting was bad, the sound was bad or the food could be better. And here's all the ways they could do it better. And so it just got me into That reflects the boys thinking that. And then I was always the kid who would like start the lemonade stand and I'd be like, OK, I need to start four more of these and scale it up and I never really followed through on that, but I always was starting, and I feel like that started muscle is the key to entrepreneurship.

Yeah, I I'm as you are talking. This is ah insight in real time. As you're talking, I'm thinking I'm constantly just tryingto ah, piece together and and internalized the different experiences I've had, including the psychedelic experience that I mentioned the artist in me chose the entrepreneurial path because I think in one way it was the most pragmatic path towards artistry towards creation. But I think something else, at least in my in my head of you know, I I love making music and producing music here in my little home office and and have for almost two decades just made music. But I never really felt a strong pull to do that professionally at all, because I think there was a pragmatic voice in my head. I I think there's also something are practical voice around the financial side of things. And, you know, do you were talking about running a business is trying to become a professional musician is very much like that. High effort, low likely result.

Rex Tron. A creative

world, right? Exactly. That is the restaurant of the creative world, and so I never was fully pulled to do that professionally. But the as you're talking, I started. Think through. I think, you know, as I I guess I wrote down artist in my little journal after this after the Iowa ask experience, but I I think the type of art that I always loved was drawing what was in my head and putting it in the outside world. Um, in some form or fashion, I never, never saw the point in your realism. It was just like,

Well, shit, just look at the actual bowl of fruit Don't recreated. I wasn't very exciting, but I think with the thing that appealed to me was I wanted to just something in my head I wanted to create. And at five years drawing

even mentioned the M psychedelic experiences a few times. I'm very, very interested in the idea of doing psychedelics, but I'm always really fearful about changing my brain chemistry. So when I was in high school, I did MGM a of couple times, and I got super super depressed for 3 to 6 months afterwards, and then 10 years later, I did it again and I had the same experience and noticed my anxiety spiked, and I just I'm not a depressive person. But I felt that. And so after that, I remember I woke up the next day and I made a video, and I basically said, Promise me you're not gonna do any stupid substances, and since then I haven't I've actually mostly stopped drinking and maybe drink once a year. I used to be a five night a week,

sometimes drinker back in my party days. But I've totally been fascinated by psychedelics, and I've been really interested in exploring them because it seems like there's a lot of very interesting research about how it changes the connections in your brain in a positive way. That said, I'm terrified of the idea of changing brain chemistry. How did you think about that when you decided to take them?

I think I think we are. Um, I think we think about this similarly as well. In that I was never ah, recreational drug user. I probably smoked weed three or four times in my life before his 30 and it just was never that it was never that interesting to me, was the youngest of five and saw 33 of my older brothers. Do they own their own experimentation? Just saw the the diminishing return on the that exploration recreational E. So I never was that attracted to it until I started to think about it therapeutically and seriously, there was nothing really going on, um, in my life, negatively at the time it was dressed this it was So I guess therapeutic is is maybe not the right word. It was more, Um, yeah.

I went to school in the East Coast from Texas because I wanted toe explore outside of Texas. I went to South Africa after school because I wanted explore their same thing for seven disco in Silicon Valley and starting companies. I think I just had I have an Explorer mindset that's just like, Yes, there is risk to going out of your familiar cave. But, man, it's it seems dull and and and or I'm so insecure with my ability to be comfortable by staying with myself teas that, uh, to rehash the Voltaire quote and eso. ITT's not all virtuous, but I think I I just kept hearing about Iowa, Oska and and its own approach. Teoh. It's ah D M t um, and it's uses for the last 5000 years and,

ah, the Amazon. And now it's being studied rigorously, along with psilocybin and mushrooms, and it's showing very, almost no toxicity. There's no addictive ness to it, and there's no I have a heart condition, so there's no fib. Relation. Risk of, um or any risk to my to my heart with I Alaska. So I basically had just done Ah, lot of research, consulted two different doctors, a psychologist,

and just had a lot of research on it before I decided to do it. And I think that was just me checking all the boxes to Not yes. Similarly, I didn't want to just be silly and and stupidly exploring a place that that, um, it was a one way door, and it seemed it seemed safe. The the place that I went that they've been doing it for 35 years and had never had, at least according to them, have never had a adverse reaction or negative experience. And and I think that with M. D. M. A. It is such a strong actor on your surgeon ergic and dopamine ergic systems that there really is that come down almost for everybody. But usually it's only 345 days,

so that's that's definitely unique. If it's if it was for 56 months for you. But I would just say Look, it's it is maybe like a trip to the Himalayas or trip to Bali and that It's interesting. Maybe you don't really feel the call to go check it out. But when an article comes out around Bali and and your somewhat interested or when someone has been you ask them about it, Um, Or if you're really interested, you know, contact the tour guide, um, on the metaphorical one for psychedelics. I don't feel what was interesting is I I I found it quite, I mean, beyond profound. But I,

um it wasn't as profound as as childbirth. And, uh, I'd say with my with my daughter being born, that is by far the most psychedelic. Um, it can mind bending experience I've ever had, which was was unexpected. I knew it was gonna be big, but it was just, like, completely world shifting and over every cliche aid sense of the word of just like, you know, um o r. Whatever one says is a parent. But it just is so mind bending.

And it still has been even more strongly 2.5 years later that I'm not just like psychedelic maximalist everybody go on, do it. Do it multiple times of only I mean, if dabbled with pretty really strong cannabis and mushrooms. But But after I Waske experience, I felt pretty good on that front. I remember I didn't feel the cold to do it again. But also, um, didn't feel like I was I was. Ah, yeah, that everyone

symbol was the example of when you've noticed, like, was that you had an inside during your trip? Where have you noticed that your brain works a little differently or better, or you're calmer

something after? I certainly so I'm a big I'm a big fan of If you listen to the podcast, you might know I'm a big fan of philosophy called Vedanta, which is, um, kind of the source of of Hinduism and Hinduism being kind of the source of Buddhism. It's just, ah, this really old old philosophy that I really love and like the number one thing with Vedanta is to question everything not like question the external world. But even more deeply questioned. Why you want something, why you're pursuing something, why you feel the way you feel And the second thing is toe not take anything for granted. And this is a 5000 year old philosophy that says question everything. Most importantly, your internal instincts and question and not take anything for granted. And what was interesting is through that that experience,

I think I certainly questioned not not in this, like a adversarial questioning of like, how you'd question a some suspect, but it's much more like, Why did I feel that way, or why am I doing what I'm doing? Why do I want to? I have this thing, this desire to move from San Francisco. And I and I had this Israel introspection of why I want to do that. And similarly, I had this inside of, uh, just wow, all of these things I'm taking for granted around me. And, um and I'd say that that that 2nd 1 just continually just gets stronger and stronger of.

But then then I had the word came out right. Then I don't have a keyboard,

came out and, uh, and I recognized got house. How? How easily Likely commitment

can be sold. You Finally, you're about to reach Nirvana. I know that is that

is the That's the one step further in my exploration. I might be there, Iowa, plus the magic keyboard. Uh, it is It is so silly and and Ah, and like I said, I think real wisdom is very far for me. Um, maybe in my forties I'll get there. But right now I'm I guess in a in a tongue in cheek. But also more serious sense Right now, I'm just, ah satisfied by the level of awareness how unwise I still am because I don't think in my twenties I would have. I mean, it was while I was buying the magic keyboard last night. I was like,

Oh, I feel this. I I can recognize this feeling I and I can pinpoint it in my body, comes up for my stomach and it sits in my chest of Oh, I want this thing on. And, um, 10 years ago, I would have just never recognized that feeling. And I even told myself, Pause before you want this before you You purchased this, and I and I overrode that to be completely but overrode. That just said no, I'm purchasing less right now.

Funny, I am stopped drinking after it was actually after that MGM a experience. When I went through that depression, I noticed that every time I would drink I would just feel horrible And so, you know, they give this drug to alcoholics where every time you drank, you barf, right, and it's for severe alcoholic. So MGM and that depression almost had the same result. Every time I drink, I would just feel like garbage and spite stopped drinking. And once I was offered for a while, I didn't desire it anymore. But what I noticed was I remember when friends of mine who didn't drink would tell me why they didn't drink Whatever. I would be almost outraged by it, right?

Like I'd be like, That's insane. Why don't you drink? It's so much more fun. It's social. You know, it would upset me. Excite feel judged. And I remember a friend of mine told me that he only buys he would only by the new iPad or whatever. When he reaches a new milestone in business, or he'll tell himself, You know, I can't buy that for six months, which seems like a very healthy practice, and I remember thinking, What the fuck?

You know, what you talking about? You can afford it. Why wouldn't you do that? And it's that exact same thing. It's this, like I feel judged I feel disgusted with myself that I craved this item and I need to go by it. I'm so impulsive. And so I'm getting angry at this guy. Interesting how that works.

It isn't. It's Yeah, I say, Satisfied? I'm not complacent. And it still messes with my head. Each time that I do that, that I override the better version of myself. At least I'm aware of it and it sticks with me for a couple weeks. But the Met

by 20 systems such trying prevent yourself because it's a little bit like I try and avoid eating junk food. But, you know, I actually get upset with my wife when she buys ice cream, because I know that I'm gonna break right If I know what's in the house, I'm gonna break at some point, I'm gonna go eat it. And so I try and construct systems that where I don't need self control or, well, be embarrassed by doing it or whatever. And so when it comes to buying stuff, I remember when my business partner, when I hired my business partner originally is my CFO back in 20 ton before use my business partner, he started looking over all my credit card statements, and I remember he would embarrass you could say, man, what you doing?

You've spent, you know, two grand on computers this month. And what the heck is this? Still or whatever. And it totally changed my behavior on That's actually been really helpful. Have you

tried anything like that? I have. I have, in fact, ah, the person that works with me on on one of my projects. Magic mind The little drink is Ah, I did the exact same thing. I was like, Hey, before I buy these certain things, um, I don't take a salary from it. And so it's just it's it. It's just, ah, is this side project that I've built out,

But I just said, Hey, this has nothing to do with your work. But I want you, Teoh. I want you to be this accountability partner as I send you things that I'm gonna buy or want to buy. And I get your get your take. I want that that accountability and shame Ah, for something that just doesn't make sense. And I need, um and I need someone else to tell me it doesn't make sense, and that has led to a drastic reduction because you just don't I don't send the things his way, especially when it's like music equipment. It just stopped pretty quickly, cause like, God, this is I'm not gonna be

able to explain. It was a compliment. Like I play, I play guitar and it's so it's so difficult to not go

by a pedal or,

you know, new pick or just the silly things you just don't need. And when you actually meet people who are the best music musicians, they often have a 20 year old guitar that have been playing forever. And it's not about, you know, all these different amps and guitars, all this stuff that makes you sound good. It's sitting in practicing. We're going back to that theme of just gonna sit in the freakin room by yourself for hours and practice,

right? Right, it's ah, I can say right and still behavioral e, um, override that of that wisdom. It's the that I will, I will say with the magic keyboard of my my lower back has to stress fractures in college and high school and and it just my lower back kills and I actually do use my my iPad is my primary work machine. I love it. It actually is the fastest, like in all of the speed tests and everything. It's

it's for you about the keyboard or before.

Yeah, before that, I got the keyboard I've been using an iPad pro for maybe, um, a year and 1/2 is my primary machine that it really is just ah so damn fast with the IOS clients on essentially the performance of a Mac book pro. But just the lighter weight clients like email is so much faster

notes, and I got to hooked on. I use Omni Focus, which, you know it's available on mobile. That sounds good, but I use superhuman, and I'm just so hooked on the superhuman desktop client. But maybe you don't get there. I I did that for a while. I did the I've had both for probably three months or whatever, and I loved it, and I find that it's just going back to that whole thing of not making a lot of decisions. You can only really have two things up on the screen at one's mind, not really relaxing beyond

that is the screen to screen, and I do have I've got a $4000 Mac book pro 12 feet away. Um, that it's just not worth buying If you're out there and you email, I mean, it's It's where I do music production, but still I am completely lying to myself when I tell myself I need that nice of a Mac book pro. But the iPad Pro is faster like literally I movie. Been making a movie if you just and you can look these things up on YouTube and things to see the speed differences, and it's actually faster on the iPad Pro. Even the one that's Ah, I've got the 2018. So, like the two year old my iPad pro really, really damn fast and you have the magic keyboard just allows me Teoh toe fix the screen at a different angle. That's just a pain in the ass, because I work from a little air mattress two feet away from me most of the day, and the dam I've had pro keyboard that it has right now. You just can't You can't really change the angle. So there

was This is a lie down

when you when you lie down

is

your back? Yeah, because of my lower back. So all of these things are, um, 49% left brain rational reasons of why I got the magic keyboard. But I still say 51% because it is it really is an unhealthy habit because it's this beast that is never satiated to just be like one more gadget. One more gadget, one

more funding. You one, you got into a new hobby. Like, I know that if I got into gardening or something, I d like Oh, man, what that travel on? How do I get raised? Garden beds look like this. I just hate I love and hate those things. I love going down and learning a new skill, but I think I'm addicted to all the gear that come boosted. Like I just even being his podcast interviews. I went out and I got Ohio. Mike and I got a bore. A road board,

all this stuff. I'm just loving all this gear right, And it goes back to that 15 year old me. All I wanted was the ability to buy all the gadgets, and here I am a bottle of the gadgets and I still have a hole in my my heart that doesn't make any.

It's yeah, and I hope it's a ah, it's at least helpful for for listeners that it is, especially with with the technology focus off of the podcast. I think it's Ah, lot of my friends and a lot of listeners were world cut from the same cloth of just one more gadget away. One more career accolade away, and I think it's far more beneficial toe work on on being quite comfortable with what you have and being alone in that in that room to that Voltaire quote as well as as well, is just not taking for granted what is around us. Because Good God, when I get fixated on something, um, so I will overcome it. So the magic you board is example where I just overrode the ah, the underlying message. You don't need this, but for for many things I do.

I do get around it by sending it to a friend. This friend will, um, that I work with to say no. Did you don't need that? Ah x y z but and then the shame got so loud that then I just stopped standing. I was feel on my own, but I think the another thing it's that is really helpful is just attaching to to something a little bit deeper, a little bit more healthy. And and so when it comes Teoh, like a new device or like there is a music. Um, there's a music device that I want these little drum pads Ah, for for ah, like a live performance on drum pets. I don't even live performed.

That's how silly and stupid I am. But I wanted these things for 56 months, and every time that it comes up, I just tried to tell myself not It may be similar to your friend of Make It to a certain milestone. It's before I purchase, but it's more like, really used the hell out of this one piece of equipment that I do love, Um, which is ableto and really get really good at using able to turn

Well, I think if you're using it as a lever, right, if you're if it's something you do every single day and you want to buy the best what I struggle with the pisses me office. I play guitar, you know, once once in a while, lately, side kids and I still have a great guitar and I go by the gear and all that kind of stuff. That's the stuff that I got set above. But if I was actually a performing musician, or even there's an argument to be made that if the iPad keyboard makes you more productive day today, you take pleasure in it and you're using it five hours a day. Then who gives a shit, right? It's the dumb stuff, the 10 sleep trackers that I bought before I got fewer. And that's what bugs

it's true is. And yet, I think with all of, um, my internal reflection, there still is this voice of even that magic keyboard. Is there something unhealthy? It's. And maybe it is the layer deeper of Yeah, that is your primary device, or you you do everything on it. But where am I still trying to get Teoh? Um, why Martin

might also be just researching it, right? I was fine. There's so much pleasure in deep diving. Run. Okay, what's the best possible thing I could buy for this particular use case. The other day, I spent 30 minutes looking up toasters. We know our toaster broke, and I actually love the research process and stuff. So it was that Yeah. What

is? What is the third story that comes to mind? Something that the story in your life that has helped shape who you become?

Yeah, like this. A. So, basically, I've always loved restaurants, and I've always loved brick and mortar businesses and have once been, you know, be intact, like so much of what we created. Ephemeral, right. You might build a web app or code or design, but within a few years of changes and it's gone, and so I kind of better size this idea of creating a physical business. And I ended up starting a restaurant with two friends of mine my business partner and my best friend, Rajiv.

And we wait, we looked at it went okay. Like restaurants, air yeezy. We bring all these, you know, business. All this business expertise to this. We're going to read the best MBA case studies, and, you know, we're gonna be able to bring all the best practices to this will be able to do digital marketing and really great designed and, you know, etcetera, etcetera, right?

And we got absolutely creamed like we had our ass is handed to us and we realized that running a restaurant is one of the hardest things. I mean, you know, there's harder jobs, like being a minor and stuff. But as first businesses go, it's incredibly low margin. Most of your stop is only working in the restaurant industry temporarily. You know, making money is the difference between buying pork a a dollar and 50 cents first, a dollar and 20 cents. You know, there's just endless risks, and it's very capital intensive. You have to spend a ton of money to buy all the equipment to build out the space, etcetera.

And so we went in there, and we just God, we just thought we lost so much money like it was just an absolute money pet. And we had this really challenging experience where we realized that at the end of the day, a restauranteur haas to be their day to day every single hour, watching every single and happen, otherwise they lose money. Um, and it gave me so much respect for Internet businesses. It made me appreciate what I was already doing. And it was like touching the hot stove. I mean, kind of literally, um, and realizing that I don't that's not me, right?

I have give me so much respect for people who run brick and mortar businesses, you know, we intact or so spoiled we can create this magic machine that can operate based on these, like, you know, code robots that do all these things for people. And there's no real world implication whatsoever. I mean, yeah, there's stuff like uber, but I'm more referring to software, and the returns air so insanely outsized in the margins are huge. And so I just yet really made me respect our current businesses and realize that I should really stick to the knitting. Um, and you know, what's the Buffett quote? One of management team with a reputation for brilliance, tackles of business with a reputation for bad economics? It's the business that wins certainly happened to us.

Yeah, it's very different than the narratives that were that get spun of it always being about the people. And the more you know, the more that I invest in the more than I I build. The more I see it really is such an interesting dance between the the market and and the people. And it really is. The market leads.

I mean, a dumb idea with the great CEO doesn't need been successful, right? And maybe it has better odds. But again, going back to like a picture of the fish are choosing something that is already working is a lot easier than trying to be clever and decide that you're going to make the most profitable chain of grilled cheese sandwich stores in San Francisco.

Now it's in, and else it goes back toe just being careful. Toe not take for granted. What's already before? You totally does. Out of curiosity, do

it. Do you have a Did you have

a religious background growing up?

No. No, really. I was, um, baptized anglican, and we went a little bit, um when I was young, but my parents were not very religious. Um, and I'm not I'm not religious. Little

dimension. Meditation. What? What attracted you to meditation?

Well, I mean, I think, um, you know, it's it was something that popped up on my radar because a bunch of friends started mentioning it. And, you know, being in Tech, there's always these waves of fads, and I decided to give it a try. And I realized, um, you know, I did a 10 minute meditation and I realized that was the last time that I just sat there quietly, not used my phone. And even though my brain was screaming at me and you know,

it's kind of miserable in the moment, it was really refreshing just to sit there and give myself a break. And I stuck with it, and I started noticing that instead of getting in the shower every morning and having my brain go a mile a minute and you know, just think about all the things I have to do that day and all the commitments that I've been follow through on all the people that are angry at me, your whatever I could actually say Hold on what? Pause that and just enjoy the feeling of hot water running down my head. Right. So, um, that's really what it has been for me is a way to just get another couple seconds before I go down. You know, some rabbit trail in my brain, and it's it's helped me be calmer with my family not snapping. My kid's not gonna invites with my wife. Um,

really just be a lot easier on me, But just like anything else, I fall off the wagon. So since I had my kids, I used to meditate 30 minutes a day. I'm lucky if I do a 10 minute meditation every two or three days. Um, so I hope that someday I could do a silent retreat or just at least get the practice going again. But just like exercise, it's one of those things that I know for a fact. I feel better when I do it, But I'm you know, it's just hard to find time with two kids, which is a bullshit excuse, because it's 10 minutes a day,

Yeah, yeah, that if you can't find an hour, then ah, to meditate them or if you can't find 20 minutes to meditate and meditate for an hour type of thing. But it's Ah, yeah, kids obviously throw the wrenches in the routines, but you seem to be pretty routinized. Um, and when did you start to discover the power of routines when you can when you really can stick to them because I've seen you also tweet about them. And you also Ah, you know, even larger, higher level things of not drinking. You seem to be pretty aware of all of the things that go into that optimal day.

Well, I'm a pretty I'm a pretty anxious person, and I'm a bit of an anxious planner. So for me, the idea that, you know, I started observing that when I don't sleep well, everything is harder, right? So if I have, you could come to me tomorrow and say, um you know, this business is going bankrupt and you need to move out of your house and I dont goes well rested. I would probably cope. I probably be just fine. Um, when I'm tired,

you could come to me and say you forgot to pay this parking ticket, and you just got a legal notice the units at and I would be interested stressed out like a a piece of gravel. Put it turns into a boulder when I'm tired and so really like, it's just been a process of observing the things that put me in a state where, unless prone to be anxious and I feel better. And so making that connection has given me anxiety about making triggered a good sleep, making trade well, avoiding travel, all sorts of steps. In some ways, it's a bit of a coping mechanism. But I do actually really, really love my day in my life when I follow those routines and when I get enough sleep meat, Well, exercise, I mean visual tropes.

Everyone knows them, but I'm very routine, driven to the point where I wear the same thing every day. I trying to eat the same breakfast every day. Um, I have a very short list of activities that I do, and I find that Yeah, generally, I'm very happy when I follow a tight routine. And when I start to have anxiety is when I start to have a paradox of choice of too many options of foam. Oh, of things that should be doing that could be doing and I mean, honestly, having kids. I had the same experience you did. The most psychedelic amazing experience I had was having my kid pop out,

changed my whole life and changed my brain. But the nice thing about kids is a You're so busy that you just can't contemplate your own existence and have a central crises. But also I can just do put into a meditative state by smelling my son's hair or hugging him or watching him play. So that's been profound and gratifying, an amazing and anyone. I always feel like anyone who wants to have kids like my only regret about kids is I wish I had done it five years earlier. Even, you know, I did it at 30 31 which now it is is relatively young. If I could have done it a 25 if I'd met my wife and we could have done it, then I would have. I mean, I didn't meet my wife till later, but yeah, just the more time you have with kids and grandchildren and stuff, I think that's the key.

I I wish I could controversially disagree with a lot of with anything that you're saying during this interview, but I think maybe we have lived similar lives of of lots of different varied experiences and seeing which ones are the most impactful. And yeah, I would give the same advice. Having kids sooner were 31 as well, and it was really, I mean, it's just nothing will come close to that. It's I describe it to a friend of saying It's like doing spending 30 years, thinking other things that you're trying to do are really important. And then you do the one thing that 10 million years of evolution has created you to do and you do that one thing and you're like, Holy shit, this is what I was created to do. And that's not the case for everyone. Um, but for for us, that's what it felt like.

My my wife, actually on the way to the hospital, was crying because she felt like she did not have the maternal instinct. She had never really had this, like maternal desire. Um, but we had kids at 31 because we felt like OK, yeah, this is We're open to it and probably will come. And she was crying on the way to the hospital because she didn't feel it yet. Fast forward. Two days, three days later and oh my God, they're inseparable and and untold early, unrecognizable with her insanely strong maternal instincts versus, you know, literally the drive to the hospital in her wearing that they weren't there

like we talked about earlier. It's just following evolution, right? Who thought that it would be like a lock in the key are key in a lock when you finally do the thing you're designed for, Um, and just like, you know, diet and exercise, you know, your day to day life from the paradox of choice kids are ingrained in our brains. I think, um and I certainly found that as soon as I had a kid, it was like, Oh, this is why I'm here. And this is the point of life. Um,

and everything else is just noise and games and fun, distraction and things to make time pass. But if I if I could I'd have, like, 10 kids. Like I I love it.

Yeah, as great. The last question I want to ask is, is what is something that you think a lot about? But you rarely ever get a chance to talk about.

Well, the fits money. I broke down the travel and we talked with Yeah,

there was such a fascinating tweet because it is it. I mean, especially after building and and selling a company Airbnb, and then working there for two years. It was I mean, travel is everything. And it seems in this instagram driven world that travels everything except for right now with with Corona virus,

when you see how many people I mean, they did. Ah, did a poll in the UK and they said, How many people are looking forward to the lock down being over? Only 8% of people said they wanted it to be over because everyone's intrinsically focused. They're not traveling. They're not thinking about what's next, their thinking about what's now. I mean, the travel thing is big. The biggest thing is just I think everybody means to give himself a break and do what they actually enjoy, right? I mean, we've kind of touched on this a couple times, but, um,

I see so many people who are doing things that make them miserable in the present because it's gonna have some future outcome for them. And instead of just embracing laziness in the areas that they don't enjoy like I am, if most people look at me and go like, oh, you're not lazy, you have like 25 companies always employees and you're busy and all this stuff. But what they're missing is that I have discarded all this stuff and all the tasks I don't want to dio. I've been lazy. I've been I've been the guy who I'm a logger who ran away because I don't like cutting down trees and instead hired some other logger to go do it for me in the in a lot of ways, there's this sense of cowardice right of like have got this other person to do this. And I think a lot of entrepreneurs and people in general feel bad about that, forgetting that the longer that I put in my place is loving it. And because I put in that logger, I'm able to go now work on the logging company, which is the thing that I enjoy and scaling that and doing more projects. And I don't know, I just think people are not. They don't embrace lazy messing up on delegation enough and they just feel so much guilt around.

Yeah, it's it's it's true. I think that that Puritan work ethic is in kind of Western culture where it is so driven. Teoh and mapped to, I think even just going back toe a religious philosophy of Christianity where it is you are going to be judged on your works. And can I think that that's, um they could be vastly misunderstood, misinterpreted and dangerously misinterpreted from the fact that we are actually, Ah, I mean, I think in every every scientific way we are part of an ecology and you don't have the shrubs trying to be trees and the trees trying Teoh to be dear. It is They're doing the thing that they're created to dio and And the tree isn't just growing up reading stories about dear thinking. All right, I'm gonna be a great dear, um, like we all grow up with these narratives of That's kind of the reason behind starting below the Linus. I think that these narratives of creation,

where it is this cult of personality, is this individual that creates this thing that, you know, we touched on how important the market is. Um and it's the narratives are so they're dangerous. They're not just wrong. I think they're dangerous. And and I think we missed out on a whole lot of innovation and a whole lot of ah, creative out. But because so many creative people try their handed at starting a company for 78 months and they're like, What the This story is so different than every other story I've read. There's no way that this is right. I need the bail and I'm gonna go work at, uh at Facebook. And, man, we miss out on so much innovation because of the these false narratives

when they think they have no other. The false narrative of Steve Jobs. Just creative genius for getting that. Steve Jobs had thousands of people and, you know, executive surrounding him that we're doing so money. They're making so many decisions on his behalf, and he's guiding them from a very high

level, and he happens to be in this state. This happens to be in the city that is right on the cusp of the biggest industrial wave that the world has ever seen. But no, no, no. It's just a guy in the garage with an idea manifesting that idea and that that, uh, you know, the other 99% of the wave that this person is writing is kind of taken out of the story.

Yeah, I think you know. The other thing is, some people forget to think about the odds of success with things, and, you know, it talked about this a bunch over the last couple hours. But, you know, a lot of people don't contemplate the odds of success of starting a startup, right? They've read about Jeff Bezos. They haven't read about Jeff Bozo's All the Guys Who Know and They raised a lot of money and all went bankrupt in 1999. And I think that there's something kind of crazy and admirable in some ways. But the people are willing to go out with a 95% chance of failure on and put their all of their personal capital into that right, like you'd never buy a house where there's a 95% chance that would go to zero. And yet you'll invest an entire decade of your life in an idea with a very high probability of failure.

Because there's this. You know, one person like Steve Jobs or Drew house 10 or whoever who you think, uh, you know, was it was the person who made it to the other side of the stream. So that's something. I think a lot of Ah two is just risk. I think people are underestimating the wrist of running startups, starting startups, getting stock options, all that kind of stuff. And I'm not anti those things. But I do think people need to really run the numbers and understand the risk profile and whether that's something that they're suited for. Because I know a lot of dejected people who spent 10 years building startups only to have worthless stock options or, you know, the same amount of money they would have had if they just worked a normal job.

Right. You know, you've touched on Ah, handful, different areas of essentially, I guess what could be called life design and is ah, as a designer, as a product designer. It, um it's not that surprising, Neil, from from how you design your logging business, um, firing the loggers to to actually knowing, Hey, this is what logging is really like because you're you're really referencing interest, your own experience of running companies or running the restaurant and choosing to not do that again.

It seems like you think quite a bit about life design and it's It's not, I guess, in a in a very real way. It's not very. It's not surprising if your product designer, who the hell wants to experience a product that is frustrating. That is just only one thing that is tiring. Um, you know, 90% of the day and yet really, really smart. PM's listening to this podcast. I'm designers listing his podcast. Um, I know for myself will spend a decade with the life that they would never design as a product and yet are totally fine with that while they spend 25 hours a day thinking about how to refine some screen or some app toe where it is, you know, surprise and delight. And yet their world is his great bleak and, uh,

for such a good way of putting it. Yeah, totally. That's super super on point. Well, Andrew, where

can people find you online?

So, uh, our website's tiny capital dot com, um, where you can find me on Twitter? It will come.

I absolutely recommend everyone to follow you on Twitter is, uh, they're very I guess counter tech mean thoughts that I think are ahead of the curve and and they will become more and more. I think they will become mainstays as as everybody's kind of open to different ways of doing things after the last decade of you operating with the engine at 100 10%. Andrew, thank you so much for for the time on the generosity and time on the insights. And I really appreciate the last last two hours of talking with you. I could talk for another five, Um, really appreciate it and wish you all the best with with tiny capital and what is becoming the Berkshire Hathaway of the Internet.

Thanks so much, man. That was the post one very, very unconventional for a broadcast interview, which is always a nice change. So that's

great. Well, thank you. Unconventional answers right back at you. Thanks, Andrew. A friends and listeners. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you want to hear more of these types of conversations, go over to your favorite podcast, app and hit, Subscribe or leave us a review. Better bad love hearing from people that appreciate this type of conversation and want more of it. You can also follow us on Twitter at Go below the line as well. A CNR Twitter bio. Our email address for you to shoot us a note on any suggestions of guests or topics that we should cover. We read every single one so thank you for those that are 40 sent those in. That's it for us today. We will see you next time on below the line.