I think one thing that everybody has started talking about it is that capital has dried up. But it's not just monetary capital. It's also social capital being able to actually say, Hey, you decision maker at Company A. Will you spend some time with this start up and they're gonna go back and say I have two problems. I have no other problems anymore because if I don't solve these two problems,

I don't have a business. Hey, this is the built in Seattle podcast. I'm Adam Schoenfeld on this show. I chat with Seattle's best entrepreneurs, operators and investors about how they think and how they operate. I'm here with the one. The only Obvio Ginsburg. He's a general partner at Founders Co up and welcome back to the built in Seattle podcast social distancing version. Welcome of you. Thanks for having me good to talk with you. People who know both of us know that we have some history together, don't want

a little bit. We we've known each other for quite a while, and we may have even done one or two

things together. So a bill and I were co founders of a company called simply measured in recent history. It's been a few years now, actually. I think

we could now start calling it a previous cycle company. Like I sort of always wanted to have got like dot com Bubble crash. A pretty company. But now I think, like we're really

from a different era. Well, we're gonna talk about this shift that were going through. And one thing I have admired about you since our days of working together is that you are very good at forming unconventional points of view. And so I'm very excited about this interview to hear some of your view on what's going to happen next

for sure. Yeah, I think that is one of the things I enjoy about being in in ah, general partner role rather than a founder role. Is that that type of thinking? I don't know. This is a little bit more teething.

So just for people who don't know what is founders Coop and what do you guys dio? Yes. So Founders

Coop is Seed Stage fund based here in Seattle that focuses exclusively on CNN pre seed stage companies in the Pacific Northwest. So currently it's two of us. My partner Chris DeVore was the original founder of the fund in 2008 and we're currently investing out of a $25 million fun and writing half a 1,000,000 to 750 K checks in Jena. Really, early stage companies in the region were completely industry agnostic. We love we love anything that's created by great people, though we we are, you know, afraid of hardware. But pretty much anything that has some software involved were down that Teoh get to know you and get weird with it. And interestingly, like What's what's been so fun about this for me is I mean, you know, this start first money into simply measuring back when we're entitled. Startup was founders. So one of the fun things whenever I'm talking with anyone in this role is that, you know,

I get to have lived at that full journey when people are like what Sanders call up about. I'm like, Well, let me give you the perspective as a founder that founders Coop funded, and as somebody that's trying to pitch you on taking, I'm taking my money.

That's right. Yeah, you've seen both sides of it. What's been hard about making that transition because I always think of you as such a great product thinker, designer operator. And now you've been gun to the complete other side of the table as an investor. What's been the hardest thing about that transition?

Oh, God. And let me just say like it. It hasn't just been a hard, but I definitely. When I started starting out doing this, I made some bad investments that the reality right is, I think is, ah, founder and with my product thinking like I get really excited about the opportunity, what could be built, like way too much in the weeds, imagining myself as the founder and the CEO, And I think that led in some cases Teoh me realizing that that wasn't really what I was investing in. Like I was not the one running this company, even if I thought that I knew what the right thing to do was the founder wasn't necessarily going to do that. And also they definitely should be listening to,

because I'm not the one that's actually in the weeds every day and has all the context. So I think Step one was understanding that my product superpowers were no longer relevant. And I think additionally realizing that, you know, I was not critical path. I was not the one who was actually really having no meaningful impact on what the company was building. So that transition to it being a lot more about investing on people and spending my time in my energy, you know, influencing rather than directing. You know me, you know my style. Like it took a while for Meteo to adapt to that. But I think at first I didn't I didn't Really

Yeah. I could see that being hard, especially for somebody like you who can get so into the weeds and to the point of moving pixels around and like, That's not why they took your money. And that's not why they want to work with

you. Yeah, I think I remember doing some diligence on, you know, some companies a while back. So I've been, you know, full time the Thunder coop for a little over three years now. But for, you know, 2 to 3 years Prior was a venture partner back when we were still running simply measured, and the diligence in the ways that I would interact with companies now are so different where I would like totally. I mean, I remember actually giving feedback on, like, some code that somebody had written in the front end, joking on pixel like I had done that. Like if you thought about making that an SPG instead

of a paying, they're like, Well, I've never heard that from a VC before.

Yeah, for some folks, they found it super endearing, like, Wow, somebody who's really in the weeds understands. But then the flip side was like, OK, when is when is this guy going to stop with these questions?

So making your transition into investing easier? Now you're investing in an environment where we have a pandemic going on and people can't go to work. And there's a whole host of things and we were texting the other day. One thing people who know us also know is that I'm horrible at cursing and you're an epic cursor, and you texted me something to the effect of this shit is so fucked for singularly focused early stage companies. You let's talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, so you know, you. What's so amazing right is when people look at companies that are now, you know, like prolific generational businesses. They really forget how, you know, brittle and simple They were when they were just getting started. You don't realize is like when you go through that phase like part of what gets you to that escape velocity is by being like, really, really good at one thing. But you know this so well. We just like a company can be terrible at, like, 90% of what it does. But if it is,

like, so excellent, about 10% it can be massively successful. You know, I think we definitely lived through some of that and simply measured. But the reality right is like if it's that 10% that gets suddenly hit by a black swan event like this, Suddenly all you're left with is a bunch of shit that doesn't work because, you know, it's not like you're this sort of mature, diversified business with all these systems that will this one flexes and the other one takes over. If this one falls, we can always do this like you. You have to put all of your eggs in one basket and that can look like taking crazy amounts of venture, scaling your burns so aggressively so that you can reach escape velocity in a market, it can mean choosing toe like double down on a specific product line. So if you're one of those companies,

that is in one of them singular moments, we just doubled down on the thing that's really working. And then it's that thing that suddenly is like unworkable because of something like a pandemic. You really go from having the whole role at your fingertips to just, like, fucked.

Totally. I mean, and it's interesting because that that narrow focus could be, ah, product line. Or it could be even a part of your business. One function, your business. You might just be really good at marketing, and you're horrible at everything else. Operationally, right? So it's it's movie dimensional that that sort of challenge that you face in that that focus how it's exposes you.

Yes, and if you hit just just the wrong place at the wrong time, like looking across the portfolio. You certainly are a bunch of businesses where they they did have that problem. We're suddenly their go to market dust work, you know, their products can't be used because of ah, stay at home quarantine. But, you know, I think the vast majority of the companies that are going through a rocky Times or ones who things weren't and in any way still are going well. But they they had a really poorly timed fundraise, so they had previously ramped up growth like numbers are looking great. But then suddenly they need to put more gas in the tank because they're trying to stay at that speed or even increased velocity. And suddenly the markets air, saying a week, we don't know how the value your business.

I'm not writing checks right now, and you find yourself in a spot where it isn't that something has affected you directly, but that through the capital markets, you're suddenly in a really, really difficult spot. And I think that that affects pretty much any business that, you know has had to raise within the past 1 to 2 months ago into the next six.

Just to to get into your point of view on this pit situation a little bit more. What? What you see is the factors about the environment we're in that are most impacting the early stage companies, right? Is it Is it the pandemic itself? Is that the social distancing? Is that the uncertainty like it's such a multilayered problem? Where where do you see the impact coming from or does it even matter?

I think there is there some interesting to stuff to unpack here? You know what one of it is that in the early stage, a lot of let's let's take like a B two B business, for example, like, how you get going is because somebody takes a chance on you, whether it's through a personal connection or, you know, just you rock that demo off of an intro like Somebody was nice for you. Somebody said, I'm gonna carry you on my back for a little while. Um, and in a moment like this, people, people can't do that. You know, I think one thing that everybody has started talking about it is that no capital has dried up,

but it's not just monetary capital is also social capital, you know, being able to actually say, Hey, you decision maker at Company A. Will you spend some time with this start up and they're gonna go back and say I have two problems. I have no other problems anymore. Because if I don't solve these two problems, I don't have a business. If you're an early stage company, the likelihood that you could actually solve one of those you know, two critical problems is much lower. So I think that is one problem, which is that you know, even if you're doing something awesome, companies just don't have time for you.

So that's one challenge you have for sure. I think the other is. Is Justin capitalizing your business as as an investor? No. You not saying that I do this, I could try my best to not do this, but like, if you're gonna do your job really well by the letter of the law, you want to be a close to the line of investing is possible without ever going over it. But you're trying to earn a free option because every minute that you haven't yet written the check, that's more data that you have about how that company is doing, how they will do what will happen. So right now, where the market is, where everyone is just waiting. If you're that early stage companies like good luck generating foam.

Oh, I know some people are still able to do it, but like the traditional playbook doesn't work anymore. And I think, you know, you combine an inability to convince investors to invest right now as well as an inability to get companies that are not already working with you to invest in a relationship. And you find yourself in a tough spot where you're saying Okay, well, what do I do right now? In a lot of cases, if if companies were lucky and are well enough capitalized on early stage, they're investing and doubling and tripling down on products so that when the time does come that people are willing to take those meetings, the the product is significantly better than where it would be. But if you're in that point in time where you're like we've got the right product, what we need is customer attention that you're just not going to get it.

It's interesting how the psychology of the early adopter customer parallels so closely the psychology of the investor of like trying to get them to come on board and be part of the mission early in both cases, you're just You're fighting such an uphill doddle. I mean, there's so many obstacles, right? If you're an early stage operator, I'm curious for you to put your operator hat on, knowing all of that, knowing all of the challenges in the next, let's say 6 to 12 months. If you're in a position where you are going to need to raise some money in that time frame, what can you be doing to get yourself set up for that? Especially if you are an early stage company and you know, a lot

of things are unproven. I think there is number one. Just say to everyone that hope is not a strategy like if you are hoping to get lucky so that you'll be able survive a raise like you're doing something wrong, like you need to make the hard decisions now about how you make sure that you actually have enough runway to execute on a plan. But then picking the plan is probably even trickier because you don't really know what does success look like anymore. Like historically, you could say, you know, if you have these milestones, then this will happen in this will happen, but all of that is up in the air, but ultimately is an early stage company. You shouldn't let that panic you because you you are so early and nimble that you can change almost everything about what you're doing. And that includes everything from product all the way to even the people on the team, like you have an opportunity and point in time. I think another thing to consider, too,

is that the whole world is getting turned upside down. So really, any forward progress is something that an investor or a customer's gonna look at as exceptional because they're going to see the struggles that they haven't say, Wow, how did this company had managed to push to push forward and have some positive momentum during this time when everything was fucked? And I think that that's ultimately what you need to look for, say, like, Okay, what is in my control right now? And there probably is something you need to be thoughtful about, like with the time you have with money we have with the people we have, what can we actually accomplish? And so that's that's what I would be doing if It was something where I could look across and say OK, my current customers and buying But I know that this product is something they will buy eventually. Who are other customers that would by this right now.

If it was something where that wasn't the case, I may say, OK, let's let's double and triple down on products rather than trying to sell and put a lot more effort into sales and marketing. So it at least at the end of this, we can show that here's everything that we accomplished in that bedroom. I think really what it is is like Look, take stock of what you control and the excellent that that and then wait to see when the time is right for you to be able to sort of turn, rest back on and say, Okay, what are the things that we can't quite control that we could be able to get some winds out of?

Yeah, I like the way you're saying that, too, and being honest about what you truly can control versus like you said, you know, adding those next five deals partial control. There's so many factors that you really can't

influence Well, in this thing that, like, really, I don't know, I I'm still processing. This is obviously spent three years running an accelerator program. So I'm the one pushing companies into what do your weekly KP eyes like? You got to do this. And like, there's this formula for like, come on, get scrappy. Just make 100 phone calls that out of those 100 phone calls, you're gonna get 52nd meetings is

gonna turn to this and this and this is this. And I

think with the uncertainty we have right now, like that process, we don't even know that that works. Right? Um, I think so many, so many early stage founders right now, we're still falling back on those same the same behaviors and patterns that they were doing previously and thinking like, Oh, you know, it's just gonna take a little bit longer or it's gonna be a lot harder, but they're still doing the same thing. And I'm legitimately worried for folks who are gonna wait too long before really taking stock of what can they control? You know, we've won one portfolio company mystery. What mystery does essentially will take you out on a an awesome evening on the town. Great meal and experience.

I've done a bunch of amazing way for you to get to explore. You're you're sitting without having to plant, which I ate doing, but for them, obviously in a locked down, their business doesn't exist if restaurants are open. If experiences aren't open, you don't exist. But, you know, it wasn't clear and hindsight what that was gonna look like. Like, are we really gonna close another restaurants? How long the restaurant's gonna be closed for? What is this gonna look like? And,

you know, the conversations I had them early on were like, So what do we do? And initials like, Okay, maybe we just sort of, you know, double down on product right now. Think about our city expansion. Think about like stuff. We haven't have the ability to do because now we have the time. Or do we sort of completely pivot the business, build something new and ship it and they didn't ladder. But when they did it, it was still, you know,

the decision to say we're not going to focus on the current business and we're gonna double down on something new was a week and 1/2 before the restaurants were even close down, like it was not an obvious decision at the time. But if they had not done not, they wouldn't have been in the sweet spot to be able to release a product to the market, to show continued growth like the team could have lost momentum. Like you don't want that. But at the time, it seemed like a crazy decision, and I think that's what a lot of startups need to do is say, What can I control like for them? They couldn't control whether or not the restaurant stock closed. They could control, even if they were open if people were gonna be comfortable enough to go out. But you know, what they could do is they could say we could invest a bunch of time on building a new product that we know we can ship. And they did that, and I'm completely, uh, so proud to be working with that team, but something that I wish more companies were doing right now.

Yeah, it's an incredible story, having looked at mystery and I want I do want I want to look down on this. So the Yeah, the original thing. Can you just describe the like the experience that they got funded on and what the business was built to do? Because I understand that they'll create the night out for you. But can you can you explain it just a little bit more? Yes,

essentially, like the experience when I first invested its's, an evolution of that was you fill out form on their website answering some questions. But both I did that as well as my partner about one of things that you like. What are things that you don't like and what's the price point? And when do you want to do this? That's that's pretty much it, you know, a day before you get a text message with Cem. Some, you know, basic information about, you know, make sure you're wearing closed toed shoes. You know, we're looking forward to seeing you tomorrow. You know that now you're like,

OK, cool. And then you get the message, just like your car will be there at 16. Be ready, and you get a text. It's like your car is here, and you get you get into a lift. Um, your lift driver is no idea who you are, does not know where you're going. You don't know where you're going and you just start driving and then you get a message about a minute before you arrive, telling you about where you're going with some recommendations on so you know, there's multiple stops. It could be everything from, you know,

a cocktail bar to boozy pottery event, which I really enjoy related to a fancy restaurant to show on what's been amazing every time for me and part of why I fell in love with this was not only do I not like planning, it's that I also don't know what I like. And what I mean by that is like I like a lot more than I think I do right, And I just would never put myself into the situation to do that

right. And so this whole thing is built on taking you out into the world and being still

people like what literally the magic is in is an experience and experience is created with you and other people in going out of your comfort. So which is the opposite of being inside of your apartment? or house.

So they figure out early. Okay, Restaurants are gonna close. We can take people, the restaurants we can't take able to venues with other people. And they pivoted. And it sounds like in the pivot, they actually kept that essence of what you're talking about, which is, like, I don't know what I like 100. But they they pivoted that actually work within the context of the world when so now,

Now what is it? So so now, essentially, you'll say, you know the usual like couple. Couple things about yourself. Price point. How many meals do you want? And you know, for if you're an existing customer allows existing of information on you as well. You will get on awesome meal delivered to you as well as a box that has a whole bunch of interesting stuff that supports local businesses as well as a couple activities for you to dio so don't want to spoil what those are. But they're like awesome fun things for you to do at home like we did the last one with my partner and my three year old. And so it was fun where we eat together, we did an hour of activities. That was something totally new. And if you've you've been at home for a month with a three year old like you are out of fucking things to Dio at entertained him. He went to bed,

and then the two of us had several hours of fun stuff to do afterwards. And to be honest, like thinking back, that's sort of the only memorable night I've had in the past month. Everything else is just sort of some version of the exact same thing, so I think that's what it captured, which is it was just a singular moment for me to step out of of my usual life. My usual circumstances be present with my partner and also challenge myself to do something new. And that was and I think that to your point about it captured the essence of what they did. I think that's what they were able to accomplish and the way that they they did it. This is pretty interesting by talking with their vendors and saying like, What can you help us create here so that we can help keep you open? But you know, how can you get creative? It's been pretty incredible, and I think I mean, to be honest, I see this pivot being something that lost along the office. Pandemic has continued products Q.

It's interesting that the process they actually went to the supply side, not the demand side, to uncover the the David under

to this supply side and to the PR side to pitch. If they would cover a product that did this,

that's a great, but that's a great kind of mental model for it. Right to see. Can you deliver the service and does it across the bar for attention? In a time when you're competing with your stock market, refresh CNN feed refresh rate and everybody is kind of inundated with all this stuff? Absolutely. That's incredible. So, yeah, people who are listening check out Mystery and the Mystery Night in I'm gonna try mystery. Try mystery dot com. Yeah, that's one of the And that's a great example of what you mentioned earlier about the early stage. Being able to just reinvent the business if you're later along, If you're pellet on right and it happens that you deliver on the on demand at home exercise, great.

You know, if your zoom great, like behavior change just got accelerated for you. But if you're a bigger company, the thought of completely pivoting is chapter. Not viable well, but here's

the thing that I think is complex, right? As anyone who's trying to read the tea leaves right now and think about what is the world really look like in three months? Six months? 12? I think what you can look at and say is, What are the trends? That this is accelerated? And I think that's fair. You can think about what behaviors that this is, you know, modified over the medium to long term. But I think it's unfair to look at certain things that were long lasting potential barriers to businesses being successful that suddenly are gone. And to think that, like that, all just stays the same. I'll take some of the food delivery things,

is an example like, I don't think that now the world needs 100,000. KRAFT Food MARKETPLACE It's replacing grocery stores and I'm an investor, an awesome one crown cow, and they've been doing it long before this, and this has been fantastic for their business. But no, I don't believe that I think some people are are reading too much into things that weren't already a growing trend and are like this is now the lead normal. So I think it's just gonna be hard to see what what all that looks like and going back to mystery. I think that is a thing where their delivery box at home. I think that is something that is a viable product going forward. But there's other certain certain things that I think just just aren't

when you think kind of fast forward. I don't know what the time frame is because none of us do. But let's just call it post vaccine world. What are the some of the trends that you think get accelerated from this period of time that we have now, or some of the behavior changes? Or what is some of the things that you're watching?

One thing in health and medicine. We've been held back for so long by regulations and issues within the industry that just should not have existed for a long period of time, and I think we're gonna move toward a much more rapid pace towards a better digitally enabled health care system, and I think that's that's a given at this point. I think people are even willing to make trade offs around that. It's been really interesting to see state laws around, you know, practicing that it's sin go away, telehealth regulations loosening. And you know, I don't think that those are things that turn back on once they turn off like jokingly in the same way. Once you start allowing restaurants to, you know, sell booze like externally to customers like I don't I don't I don't see that getting turned off either. Like there's certain things were just like, Why was this restriction here in the first place? This this was not something that that the consumer wanted,

and this was not something that was moving us forward. So I think, certain trends and digital health, for sure. I think we've only accelerated things around, you know, distributed in digital work like I, for a long time, have have not believe that the future is everyone being in one space now. I don't think that the future is everyone working at home, that that's not viable. I think a lot of the people who are campaigning that idea either one don't have kids or don't live in an apartment. So, you know, I think folks investing in digital productivity is something that is a real Tramon is something that will continue. But I do not think that everyone working from home is the future.

I mean, those those to me seemed like two of the larger trends. I think what will be interesting is what's gonna happen with retail and e commerce, like there already has been that transition aggressively towards the commerce. But I think there's a lot of unknowns in what about the shopping experience means to remain sort of physical and experiential averse. What doesn't. And I think the past month, the next couple of months, there gonna be a really great case, study and understanding where the industry is, where that really did not matter. And we just thought it did in verse one of the ones where that really was back. I think those were three areas that I I am spending a bunch of time thinking about Honestly, when I said that, like what founders Coop does is investing founders like I really do me not I think going back to like What are the things? Is a founder.

That we've been a struggle is an investor. It's honestly to spend, like, be wide but shallow and how I'm thinking about these things. I find that if I to try to go too deep on a thesis, I'm not doing my job. I want to find great founders with extremely strong point of views who can educate me, and then I can use my ability to see broadly and powder match to help make them successful. But, like, I'm never gonna be the person who's gonna be putting out of the 10 page thought piece on. Here's where this industry is going. If you're this founder building this exact product, please come out and reach me. I will write you a check. Not gonna make that mistake again.

Well, then, for people out there who are spotting trends and opportunities that air involving, then they need to latch onto them and you'll be ready to write the check.

There's no trend that's that's too crazy, either. I was actually having a conversation earlier, like what has changed about hits Texas that you'll get some pitch deck, which is it's like pretends that None of this is happening, and that's like super jarring and weird, like what is going on in this founder said. Then you'll get the other pitch deck, which is like It almost feels like a conspiracy theory, which actually looks super similar to a lot of like the crypto pitches I was getting several years ago about how, like the whole world has changed and now is the right time. And here's this. Here's this thing that's gonna happen. I see that one. I'm also like it like, Oh, and then there's this beautiful middle pitch,

which is like Here is something that is starting to happen. Here's all the directions that it can go. Here's my Here's my thesis but more importantly, here is my plan for how to evolve as this evolves like we know it's changing. I have a strong point of view, but more importantly, have a strong process to be able to navigate it as it keeps going. And like I love founders who come at come happening with things like that. And I think now more than ever is an interesting time for that. And I do think that that is something that When I was a founder, I didn't realize where I thought that what investors really wanted to hear was the founder who knew the future and had every answer and like already was living 10 years in the future. And I think certainly there are certain investors who do you want that? But that's that's not what I look for these days.

Yeah, that's a such a great framework is if you're on your the of those extremes, you you seem on one side, completely disconnected and on the other side, disingenuous, you know, And I feel like there's a lot of things that are like that. Right now you're content marketing how you deal with your customers, right? If you ignore this thing, they're gonna think you're crazy. But if you come in and say, Oh, we were built exactly four, a pandemic there, they're gonna say, Come on, man, that's not true. It's It's always this middle ground that you have to find totally yeah,

and that that is a And I think you mentioned marketing, and I think for marketing right now it's It's an especially tricky time. Know how I would not want to be a marketing right now tell you that much.

So where are you getting inspiration from During this time, Like mentors, books, people that you're following, You're reading. How are you staying connected to what's happening and sort of getting input to form your own point of view.

So, I mean, I'm always on Twitter, but I'm probably on Twitter more than I ever have been. And that's also leading me to, you know, listening to more podcasts. And I usually do a lot of them, you know, as you might expect in the D. C space. But ultimately, I think what's actually been the most important for need during this is isn't being home with my family and with my kid without child care initially that I was really frustrating. I'm lucky in that. Like, you know, I have enough control over my time.

But what has been really weird is this is the first time in my life that I am not the sort of the absent parent or the second parent. There's no longer any struggles to you. No, no. I want Mommy for this. Or, you know, I can do everything. And I think for for me when it comes to like, Where am I getting energy through Out of all of this? What sort of like the organizing grounding principle? It's like actually getting to be a good parent for the first time in my life and also realizing how hard that is, like the fact that I'm unable to pull this off in this situation. And I think using that is a grounding point to them. Look at everything else that's happening out there. Everything I'm seeing on Twitter,

everything I'm seeing within my portfolio companies. That's another interesting area. I'm probably on the phone or texting with 10 different companies every day for 5 to 10 minute conversations, just watching all of that of all. It just feels like there is this giant world of like chaos that is swarming around me. But then in the middle is me. Just, you know, having a couple with my three year old who you know, did not used to cuddle with me before this, like you're

not a gift. That's a huge gift. Well, I think that context makes a ton of sense because then you can extrapolate out and know that everybody else is hunkering down on whatever is most important, whether it's their family or, you know, they're coming internal in some way. Teoh get grounded even as you're reading more and more tweets don't totally and the thing

that I do really struggle with this like

I mean, I think I wish I could have,

like, a really profound answer to you about, like, What am I investing in, like, What am I creating? But I just don't outside of lending my brain toe help founders in my portfolio solve problems. I find it hard to really get into something and like create something, meaning like it. It is. It's just a really, really difficult time.

So who of the folks you're reading and following who's had a particularly interesting and surprising point of view that that you'd recommend to other people? This may not

be applicable, Teoh. Everyone, but looks so for me is Ah, a new a new V C. And specifically, like I knew, the founder stop only recently started working with institutional appease the out of the 1st 1 in our last fund. And now, as we look towards future from's, we have more of that and there's there's ah guy Samir Codjia from First Republic, who is sort of the thought leader on how all that world works. And he's kind of been one of the only very like, direct and honest people out there about the rial, the rial challenges that are going on behind the scenes, from everything from the the fucked up in nous of the loan programs to the fucked up iveness of startups who have tens of millions of dollars in the bank. You know,

taking advantage of that all the way till, like, what are what are the LPs were all the way up stack thinking. I think that's the thing that really fast needs me. And I think we're founders. Care about is that there are these thes allocators who they need to allocate to the seas and of the season allocate to the startups. And right now it's just super opaque about these people who are the ones who are really on the front line. Because if you're a startup right, you're raising money from a VC that already raised money a long time ago. But then, if I'm not Allocator, I have money in the markets that are getting these firsthand secondhand, potentially thirdhand effects from what's happening in the public markets like for them, even things like oil today is affecting them directly. And so I think that I had previously felt that my world in the work that I did was a little bit more isolated from the rest of that. But but through everything that he's been sharing,

and I'm really looking forward to the study that they're going to be putting it on Thursday around how he interviewed, like did a survey of about 500 general partners of how they're changing their behavior, where their concerns are. All this stuff, like just trying to China light on how those allocators air thinking has just been beyond fascinating for me, and I think it's really very behavior that's going to dictate what our world is gonna look like in one year or two years. For three years it's not. It's not like it's not the sort of consumer trends and other stuff that you think that you're reading on Twitter and other areas. It's literally these people who were sitting on top of billions of dollars where they gonna want to allocate within the next year and that's gonna affect our world in 23

I'll have to check that on. That sounds interesting, even as an operator to understand cause. Like that whole chain, in

fact, and Samir did a podcast with Assemble from Haystack recently, and so that that's a good way toe enter into that, too.

Perfect. All right, I'll put that in the show notes. Right obvio. This has been great. I've learned a ton from us. Always. I want to wrap up with just a couple questions I normally do the supersonic six, which is my nod to the basketball team we once had. But I I just have three questions in the social distancing version. So the 1st 1 is Who's another Seattle founder, investor or executive that you'd recommend folks

follow or study. What I've really been enjoying is, like, you know, Kirby Winfield, who is a founder, turned now, now becoming institutional investor. You know, we're both going through a lot of this journey in a similar time, but I really appreciated his. His perspective and transparency and honesty is he's been going through doing the work of raising his first fun and deploying his first fund so I think if you somebody that you don't follow you should. And also I and especially if you like some, you know, nineties rap music. He's also a great person to follow.

His firm's called a center, right? Yeah. Okay, Yeah, I'm a big fan is we'll have to get him on the podcast, too, and then would ask, Do you have for this audience audience anything this community can do to help you keep founding company?

It's like, honestly, like one of the biggest fears that I have right now is like we've been on one of the best trajectories, like, I firmly believe this is one of the best places in the world to found a company. All this talent has moved to Seattle to work at Facebook, Amazon, Google and we were just starting to see the wave of these amazing people leaving and founding the company's look. It is a scary time to leave your healthcare and your paycheck, but if you look at the data, the the some of the most generationally impactful companies are founded right now during these really uncertain periods where there are these completely asymmetrical opportunities for you to do something amazing because of how much is changing and how rapidly it is so like, Please don't be afraid. Please keep founding companies and you know us it. Founder stop and others in the region we want. We want to fund you to keep. Do it.

When I interviewed Glenn Kelemen on the podcast, he literally pounded the table about this one. Found more companies in Seattle. So I love that you're bringing that message back, especially at a time like this. Thank you. Very insight. Obvio. It's been great. Where can people find you or follow you? Online? It is. There's only one place a V i e l on Twitter. Usually safe for work. All right, expect some cursing at the L on Twitter. I will put that in the show notes as well. Thank you so much. Good to talk to you.