My name is Stuart Allsup, and this is my podcast Crazy wisdom, where I interviewed creative people about their meditation, mindfulness and yoga practices, and how those practices help them toe tap in to creative flow. Today I talked with Hannah Nap, founder of Within Meditation in San Francisco. We talked about how meditation helps her be a better mom, how she helps beginners to learn the benefits of meditation and how meditation helps us to evolve as a species. If you enjoy this podcast, please subscribe on iTunes by searching for crazy wisdom and hitting the subscribe button. Thank you, I'm Hannah Nap. I'm the co founder of Within Meditation, and within is a drop in meditation. Studio in down hands him into school right in the heart of the financial district, and what we do there is. We offer short 30 minute guided mindfulness meditation classes to help people get introduced to mindfulness meditation or two, just sustain their practice and grow it in the midst of being at work before work at lunch time after work.

It's really what we're aiming for, so then you get a lot of beginners

coming to be doing lots of beginners

And how does that work as it has it, Um, what have you noticed about teaching beginners and the difference between teaching beginners and teaching more regular practitioners?

My experience has been that beginners are really unsure of what's gonna happen and no matter how much they brought about meditation or talk to people who've done it, it's different when you sit down and you finally you're doing it. And so when I'm leading a class that is mostly beginners, it really make sure that I'm giving a lot of guidance and a lot of suggestions about what to pay attention to what to let go off. But the more people are experienced, the less they need that the more they want just space and time and silence. And what they're really hoping for in those 30 minutes is just a break from all the chaos in their lives rather than actually being led through some things.

And how did you first get into meditation?

I dove in headfirst with a 10 day of a possible retreat, had a dear friend who I really admire, just Pausch Iwas in her life, and I asked her, How did you get this way. Hey, are you going to choose the two things I had? Ah, life coach and I sat a bunch of the possum, every tree trunk. I said, Okay, let's try it. And so I did. And doing that 1st 10 day retreat was really my initiation into meditation.

And when was that?

That was in 2012

to that. And, uh, which day was the artist for you in the 10 day meditation

day three. Just enough into it to realize, Wow, this is really hard sitting 10 hours a day. This is really hard on not far enough along to start to be experiencing the kind of breakthroughs

and our listeners who don't know what if a possible retreat is you go into more about

what it is. Yeah, absolutely. So the pasta is insight, meditation, So it's the style of meditation that all of the so popular mindfulness practices come out off, eh? So what you do in of a possible every tree is you are in silence for 10 days and used it with a whole lot of other people in a big room. And it's the differently, like some has there three hours and is there now and 1/2. But no matter what, when you're sitting, you're just paying attention to it's actually happening right now, without judgment is that you're trying to notice what's going on in your body in particular or in the sounds around. You are, um, whatever is a part of your experience in that moment without flinching without, You know, if you're experiencing physical discomfort, you're not moving to relieve that physical discomfort. You're just experiencing what it's like to

be uncomfortable. And now, today, do they actually prevent you from moving? Or is that more of a self kind

of sensor thing? That's a self censor things So they're actually parts of the retreat where they explicitly say, OK, in this next hour, you challenge yourself to take that one notch higher, really don't move really, really challenge yourself and then others said,

like if you move, you move left. It's really interesting amount practice. I, um my 1st 10 days it was in Thailand at a monastery, culture one book, and many people don't know that that Glinka was the start of a, uh he was from a Burmese lineage, and then but in Thailand is Well, they also have their own inside meditation, which isn't too different. But I've never actually experienced the going on a 10 day style, so I've never done that before. But I did one in swim book and it was great. 10 days. Silent meditation, retreat.

Um, and they are the beginning. I always say Day three is usually the artist, so I was, like, expecting Day three and day treat. It wasn't the worst roommate that day. It was just was miserable really with me. And so what was the major? Did you notice the shift going through that possible? What was what was it like coming out of the possum? Did your life kind of change in a significant way? Did you come back to life in a different way than when you started there?

Yes, actually, in a pretty fundamental way around. Around a eight in the evening talks, they give a recorded going, giving a retreat, and that's what they do. All of the possible treats the magistracy show him giving the same talk and their talks start talking about integration. How are you gonna ring what you're learning and your retreat back into your life? And so in between sets, I was walking around the beautiful forest and and asking myself, How do we want to bring more love into the world? How am I gonna do this? I'm gonna work for a different company in it. And I kid you not. There was a voice in my head that said, Well,

Hannah, having a child is love and carnet. And I said what? I had no intention of being a mom. I was with a partner. I'm still with love who wanted kids. But I didn't. And I said this would be like, no way. But because I was in such an open place, after all those days of just being with myself, I said, Okay, that's a thought. I'm gonna let that thought b and see what happens. And so I just let it Marigny.

And when I, um when I came back and started re integrating, I just kept letting it marinade. And then about four months later, I turned to my partners, and I think I think I'm gonna have kids. And so within six months of that retreat, I was pregnant with my first child. Yeah. Yeah.

Hasn't been what you expect it to be love incarnate, bringing love incarnate into the world.

Yeah, well, that's a good question. I would say that becoming the process of becoming a mother, like the whole process of being pregnant and giving birth and then being a mother and out to toddlers Um, I have never experienced love that is as cure as I do with my kids. Even when they're making me crazy. I truly love them unconditionally. And that's something that I've never experienced in my life before. Um, and so every day with them, especially because of this, this practice of about being here now, paying attention to what's actually happening, I'm so present with them and with whatever is going on for them that even when it's hard, it's amazing. And so, in a sense, yes, it's a whole different level of love,

and everyone's reminds me of the meta practice loving kindness meditation they tell. They instruct people to take on this thing aspect of love like you're holding your baby and you're just kind of like a mother. And you're just holding love, Sandy love unconditionally to that to that child. And that's that's how I was taught to do might have met them a division. So

yeah, and I think that when you haven't had kids or had some trial in your life, you care for that way? It's really hard to I certainly didn't understand. I sort of like mentally understood, but didn't understand on a heart level with that meant, until I actually have that little being in my arms like, Whoa, this is like, totally unlike any kind of love I've ever

had before. That's really cool. So you came back, move it had, uh, two kids. And then where did you come up with the idea for Within added with him. Come about.

So after being on the passenger retreat and that getting pregnant, I started thinking about how how can I help other people get exposed to this because honestly, while attending a puzzle retreat when you're in when you're in Thailand or in your burger, like, you know that that's short for that 10 days is like lightweight for them, but it is intense when you're in America and being able to get away for that long, even when it's healing. I didn't right here in Northern California. I didn't go very far, but just being away for 10 days, it's hard like, how can I help people get access to just a taste of this, that they start exploring whatever whatever way they want to get deeper into it? And so, for a number of years, I was leading meditations inside offices I worked in. So I just started by reading scripts like and telling People will meet for 30 minutes and I'll guide us through meditation with the script.

And then, as I kept doing that like that for about four years, I really started to develop my own script, um, and realized that there was I'm not. I don't think of myself as you know, wisdom. Teacher. I've not been doing this that long at all, but I could see that there was something There was something I had to offer here in terms of opening that door for people. So that's really where the idea within came from. Woz. What if we could create a space that was really very neutral? Was very secular, if you will, where people who were curious but didn't know yet that they want to sign on for something bigger could just try it.

That's really cool. Uh, so when you guys

start, we started a year ago. Yeah. So a year ago, we started with pop up meditation events and in June last year, So nine months ago, we started the studio

a miracle. Um, so for myself, I've also worked in a lot of office environments on I was just in a Cryptocurrency event on Tuesday on It's really fun because I was in technology before and I got burnt out. I started a company, got burnt out, and that's what kind of led me to begin this meditation to anywhere went around the world for two years doing 10 David Boston not only the busted, but other styles of meditation. And I came back and I was like, Okay, so I know technology, and I know meditation, right? I'm getting to know meditation on then I want to bring together, but that I've noticed that there's this tension in technology, especially with founders that really intense. And this is like this kind of like,

uh, it's this kind of like fire, but in concentration, but like but just so overly focused on contra this creative thing. But trying to essentially creating something from their head and trying to manifest in the world against all odds kind of thing. But it's but for one of what I've learned is that that you kind of like since I'm not in control over what happens to me and everything like that. But it takes it, It's it could be easier to just kind of flow and find a flowing in it. Um, and so I don't really have a point, but essentially, like it was this this really interesting experience on Tuesday of meeting the founder like this. Why I had met many times before, but I had stopped kind of interacting with and then re introducing, really re introducing myself to this energy. Have you noticed it's energy and, like the financial district at all are,

that's a great question. I my experience. So I actually have the experience of doing meditation in office environments as well as in the studio, because I still even now, I as part of what within does we go into company from the offer? So my first my first thought when you brought up that story, is that what I've noticed when I do go into tech companies. And so I've got a more sort of skeptical audience, if you will, and then in the studio where people really self selecting much more. Um, I I've gotten the question so, but what if I'm having a meditation and I have a really good guy? Like I have a thought, an idea, right? I have that creative,

you know that that I can make this something happened like there's nothing wrong with having that thought. It's just a question of what are you doing right now? Is the point right now to be being creative in that way, There's a point to be meditating, to being present with what's here right now and actually helping create the space for them to let go of that intense focused I'm creating something place in order to be still with what's actually happening. Actually, that makes it easier to re engage in the creativity

and then lets it arise naturally, and that's the thing. That's the main thing that I found when I was because I did the 10 days of possible and so on broken. Then I did it multiple times, actually, and I think on the 3rd 1 I had an idea and a business idea about about people living in vans and stuff like that. So as as rent prices get crazier a CZ human beings start to change the way that they live in particular with self driving cars that field in people are gonna start living in vans more. So I came up with this idea and the businesses in this thing, but

I could not let it go.

Let it go. So, like, I was up at 2 a.m. No sleeping on this time I'm not able to go to sleep because this this idea was running through my head over and over and over again. Um And then I found out I found this technique and energetic technique of just essentially like like, actually visualizing that falling into the floor and then and then inhaling back up what I need and kind of letting the idea go. And then, if it comes to me, good men,

it's something to Percy. Oh, the very specific way of letting

it go. Yeah, yeah, I know

it sounds really intense.

What do you do? Because now, Because that's your main focus now is working in the office and working with people from the financial district. Uh, what are the downsides to it? Do you see any downsides toe working

to working with the energy?

Or are you working with the kind of grid of manic, uh, creative energy that, uh, that I don't know? Um that could be some intense, were intense.

I mean, my experience in the studio has been that people show up there because they are run by their minds, right? Like they're not like, rather than being in the driver's seat of whether it's with that particular kind of energy you're describing or with other kinds of energy, they can't. They don't have a choice. We feel like they don't have a choice. They don't have a choice about what what they're thinking about when, and they can tell that that is making and crazy that it's wearing them down. And depending on what kind of neuroses that comes out as whether it's anxiety or depression or just very other ways that stress could manifest. They're experiencing that, and they're thinking, I need I need a way out of this and I don't I'm not interested in taking a pill for this, and I am interested investing in something that will help me long term. And that's when they start thinking about meditation. If they've heard about meditation,

they get that. It's not a, you know, a miracle drug. They get that it won't change things overnight, But they do get that. There's the possibility that it will give them a choice over time so that they're not run by wherever their mind wants to go. They get to choose which direction they're, mine goes.

That's really interesting and brings me to a kind of something that dealt with the man in practice or dealt with. My teaching is that, uh, when people come to meditation, they have an idea of what meditation is on that directs their meditation practice. And then how do you kind of offer them hints or subtly suggest that what they think of meditation is actually something different? Or what meditation is is maybe different than what they think. Meditation is

yes, personally, when I'm teaching, what I like to do is keep the instructions that I'm giving in the guiding of the meditation very simple and clear and pointed so that it's very clear what they're supposed to be doing. Um, so so any mindfulness meditation that really is just various different ways of paying attention to what's actually happening right now without judgment. And, um, afterwards, when we're talking about well, I always have time with the class. Talk about what? What was your experience? What questions do you have? And often new people will bring out my mind wouldn't stop going. And I'll say, Yeah,

of course it didn't. That's what your mind does. It thinks just like your nose smells your mind thinks. And the point of this practice is actually not to say, Stop thinking it's Thio To interrupt that cycle on Dhe, choose to come back to the present moment and do that over and over and over, so they'll ask. So does it get better? But don't get better at it? What happens What? How do I get better at this? And and that's where to your point. I can see them thinking like there's some just there's a Yeah, Well, what I found is that you don't actually think any less. You just get better,

better catching yourself that you're thinking and so you spend more time in that empty space after you've brought your mind back to the present moment. But you're still keep running off to think. And so that's what what I think of when you ask that question is like often people well think have this idea that meditation is gonna take them into a particular state or you know is is going to stop the crazy in their brain or whatever. And and so I really like to use both guiding the experience, Um, and then talking about the experience afterwards to unpack that with them, actually find really helpful to do that in a group, because often there are. Other people in the group are having similar thoughts but might not want to ask about them. And they get to learn from the people who are willing to ask the questions on Bring it up.

That's what the night brings up, an interesting point as well. Uh, for your own practice. What is the difference for you between practicing in any group in practicing solo?

Oh, yeah. They're really different for me, Andi. I need boat has actually won the things I learned being on for Pasta Mary Treat where you're in group all the time was that I knew I came out of that retreat with very strong muscle of This is how I meditate. I know what to do when I said that I have 10 hours of April to do this, but I didn't have a group that I could sit with, and when I sat alone, I could practice that technique and I could get really deep, and that was really helpful. But it felt really different sitting with people on either side of me, and it felt really different having a teacher there toe ask questions off rather than just spinning on these questions in my head. Um, And so I went and I found a group that I could sit with and a teacher that worked for me that, like I got hit his the way he wanted to teach was the way I wanted to learn. And that helped support my practice on my own. Help me keep going with my practice on my own.

And who is that?

His name is Michael McAllister, and he teaches a group called Infinite Smile that's out in the East Bay, and he is an extent monk, so he comes from his own background. But he's very, very secular eyes, so he's not. Zen has a lot of ritual in it, and he doesn't do any of that. But his philosophy comes from Seth.

Um, are you reading any Dharma books right now, or do you have to do what is your?

My very favorites that I come back to again and again is the power of now? That particular book just strikes really deep chords in me. But when I started when I first was introduced to Dharma, I started with Jack cornfields and I started with a path with heart, which I still find it sort of such a loving, gentle kind. Introduction to all of its power now is very like it's very immediate. There is nothing else, and at the point I am in my practice. That's really invigorating, but I could also see it sometimes for beginners. That's great, but sometimes

it's overlying. That was the first book, right? Actually, that started my mouth. Most practice, that's it. No, no, no. It was the first book where actually got experiential understanding of what it is to live in the car moment. and yeah. Um, yeah. Have you read any question emerging? Yeah, Yeah.

J. Krishnamurti is He's the one I'm reading the most right now. And it's just mind blowing something about what he says to kind of distracts. Deport Inside me is all about Well, don't say all that, but he says that a lot of what humans are dealing with, a lot of the things that we create inside of our head is all based on this kind of fundamental fear of uncertainty on death and that we create these worlds so that we can live secure in these worlds and everything like that. And so and then it's all about questioning and inquiry and asking these questions like where to stop again. Where's my men were? What is thought? What is it made of? What is consistent? Um, he's really very powerful. Thank you. Check him out. Um, where do you see within going next, like, six months or so.

Well, the first thing that I want for within is just to fill the class of it. We we have right some regular students and have lots of people who try it. And but we don't yet have a community that is building and it feels like it's coming and it's growing. But it's Ah, I'm an impatient founder on it immediately. So what I want in the next six months is to feel like in every class we've got enough people in the room that it feels fantastic to be there. No matter whether you're the teacher, you're the student and feel like we're really reaching a lot of people. So a lot of what I'm working with within right now is just figuring out How do we? How do we reach more people that could benefit from less? Son of the traditional channels are not talking about meditation

you don't really know and the whole idea of selling medications well, doing something that basically deconstructs the thing that the person wants to do

is buying from yes, and there's also honestly, like theirs. Their whole pieces of meditation tradition where you don't charge poured it all. And so there's also sort of some

tension there. Yeah, and that What do you think of head space? Because now it's tze now changing. Now people are paying for meditation with Hezb Is Andi has brought a whole rate a lot of people into the meditation that what you thought, some, that's based on the way that's affected people's practices.

Well, my thought I'm not just head space, but all of the actors there, lots of them now even the head space and calms our lead the way there is that they can be a great way for people to a very light touch to check it out. But honestly, we get her a lot of refugees from maps in the studio, people who try to meditate with Absalom and they got stuck and they didn't have anybody they could talk to about it. And they did like either people who were practicing with them or a teacher. Um, and so it kind of leaves you high and dry. Um, if you get stuck and if you progress far enough, then you find you don't need it. And so it's really like it's the apse. The meditation app serve a very particular purpose, but they don't feel to me like they, um they're the end. I'll be all for anybody. I never talked to anyone who just meditates with an AB who feels like they're serious about their meditation practice,

and also it seems like it just gets people in the door on. Then they kind of have an idea of what meditation is. But then the real beauty of meditation a lot of what I got from instruction in smoke and sitting with you guys it within meditation was that, uh, the SNC, same moment. Everybody in the same room on the same page, essentially, whereas who Every recorded things are separated for in time and space from from the actual listening of it. Because that's what I and I think more people will start to realize that because now they've got that space. And now they're like, Okay, now what is the next step? Let's go within. Let's try and in person that meditation and stuff like that. So I think I think I think they're doing a really good job, essentially getting a mass appeal, starting to come into meditation.

Yes, yes, and also making it really clear, especially with some of them, like simple, have it some of the other ones where they're really focused on the short meditations. Um or but if I was really someone that really like, it's really about, like you're standing in line. Here's a meditation for you because one of things actually like about it is that it's encouraging people to think of meditation. It's something that you can do anywhere you don't have. Thio have a dedicated space or new oodles of time. You can, and you'll get one experience if you take the time to invest that way. But you can also take the minute you have at the stoplight.

And how do you How do you at that Within How do you, um, instruct the students about that? How do you kind of let them? Do you have the tips or guidance for people to bring the practice into their daily lives?

Yeah, I really liked it and the classes with some idea for them to take into the day ahead. So one of my favorites is intention setting. So helping people as they're coming out of being in this meditative state and there starting to move into their days really be intentional about what I want this day to be about from that place of stillness and you know not from the to do list and achievement and whatever, but really what I want in this day and that that helps. He cups helps blend the two together. But also, I mean, honestly, I find in the 30 minute format in the studio, there isn't much time for that. For for that integration piece, there is something that happens in the current conversation at the end to sometimes people ask for specific ideas. But where I really get to do that is when I go into offices and I d'oh an hour long workshop where we do both, Here's what Here's but research on meditation. Here's the woman in the practicing meditation and then talking about Hey here, different ideas for how you can put it into action.

And one of my favorites is what I just said about the stop, like having having some trigger, if you will, over there such negative connotations with that word in your life when whenever it happens, that's your cue to stop and take a breath and notice what's going on.

My last guest injury done way talk about after the podcast, but he had really great triggers, one of one of which was if you got the intention to check your phone, you wait until the fourth intention the check your home. And by that time, it might go. Another one is you. You get you get the idea. I want to check my phone. You look outside the window, you try to find a tree. Um uh, that changes the whole the whole

night night especially. I know he's so interested in two couple ng from technology, and that's what I can see. How both of those would really help you with that.

Absolutely not started to use amount to work. They were, Yeah.

The other thing that comes to mind when you asked that question is that we were talking about earlier. I'm a mom. I have to toddlers. And honestly, the place where I am most challenged as well as most invested in my practice is with my kids. And, um and I find that when I'm starting to feel I've started noticed, I'm getting angry or frustrated. You know, my my two year old is refusing to come upstairs and get dressed, and we need to get out the door, you know, like that's building the kinds of frustrations that my life is full of his mom. Tom. There's right. And when I feel the frustration rising Because of this practice, I'm able to notice that that's happening and stop and either,

you know, just decided I have a choice. I can just take a breath and see if it diffuses. I can articulate might other. I'm starting to feel really frustrated. And then it often dissipated. I can. If it doesn't, I can say I'm starting to feel really frustrated. I need to go take a few breaths in the other room, go in the other room and take a few breaths when sometimes just stopping. In that moment, I notice, Hey, is it really that important that we leave right now? Is this really that big of a deal? And sometimes it is like there's some reason we really most of the time it's really not. And and so that's where I find the mindfulness integration happening the most for me is in regulating my emotions. If you like really paying attention to them, saying that they're happening and then making choices for how I want it plain that

that's a great point, which is, uh, with Michael's practices that there seems to be two avenues that you can you can go with when any sort of cognition or any sort of negative or positive cognition comes into your to your awareness is you can regulate your emotion towards it or you could just become aware of it. How do you use that? When do you use each one? Or do you find yourself using different regulation versus

awareness? I do. And it for me. It depends in a lot of ways, on the intensity of the emotion and on the context. So if I'm just sitting in meditation, I'm definitely just gonna be an awareness. I'm gonna just notice whatever is happening ride whenever wave because it's just me and my emotion. I'm not impacting anybody. When I win my toddler take the stake there is like the last thing I wanna do is end up yelling on top. And so if I'm feeling like just being aware of the emotion isn't allowing it to diffuse and run its course than I'm going to take steps to regulate, right, I'm going to say I'm gonna art. I'm gonna use affect labeling. I'm going to say I'm feeling angry, and often that makes it just like we were just talking about it with breathing.

You have so in another difference, I noticed between yoga techniques on DME or mindfulness based in Buddhism. Resent is that there isn't much breathing exercises and Buddhist meditation do use anybody breathing exercises.

I don't know. Not in my meditation at all. I mean in ah, in the pasta. In the 1st 3 days, when you're on retreat, you're doing on upon a meditation. So you're focusing specifically on feeling the breath in the space between the tip of your nose and your upper lip. So sometimes when I'm meditating, I use that technique. But really, that's not about controlling your breath is still it's about noticing your last. So I don't practice any control Breath control

some of them.

Okay, I,

um that was a reverse breeder. S o meant that my when I inhale my abdomen would go in as opposed to expanding out. I would read only in the chest on dso for me. When I asked, first started mindfulness meditation. I couldn't just become aware of the breath because there would be so much anxiety associated with it. So I learned how to regulate breath. Andi, through those regulation practices, I was able to kind of learn how to breathe through the diagram on Dhe. Now I'm now. I'm kind of discovering what's going on in my chest and my neck and stuff like that, and it's these breathing exercises just kind of come to me like it's really interesting. I was reading this article about a photographer who is going around taking pictures of people in their yoga practices on your picture of Ah, uh, son Jassi or a holy man in the Ganges River who was just kind of laying in the river. And he's practicing this breath technique plumbed off a plum job difficult,

uh, plumed off plum, Vinny, uh, and you essentially inhale to your maximum capacity, and then you exhale just a little bit. And if you've inhaled at that peak a minute, inhale, exhale, inhale, exhale. Um, and it's been like it's allowing me access into my chest into the breathing apparatus of Manchester in ways that I haven't had before. Wow, that's what I'm learning a lot. I'm doing a yoga therapy training program right now, and and we're learning yoga techniques in order to help people with intense medical conditions on the lot of them are breathing, breathing techniques and stuff like that.

Fantastic. Well, I certainly like my first step, interestingly, with with my older toddler of my four year old. Now, when he's upset is to encourage him to stop and breathe. And what we're really doing together there is regulating right? Like I'm not asking him to notice this for us. I'm asking him like you're a full blown panic. Like actually consciously very

right. Is he resistant to it? It'll are,

uh, he's not resistant. He's more just like he said. He doesn't understand that it's a tool yet, right? Like he's He's used it sometimes, but he doesn't yet hasn't yet made that bridge into Oh, that's something I can pull out myself when

I needed you. Yeah, I got I gotta do the thing with my nephew had come back from a meditation retreat. He was five years old at this time, and so I wanted to share it with everybody, and I was trying to show up, and it just wasn't working until he saw me, uh, sharing something with my mom on. Then once he saw me helping my mom with a breathing exercise. Then he started doing it with us as well. But over the past five years, I've just kind of totally stopped trying to do anything that in that area, because it's just like it's that is something.

Yes, when when I was it was it with him 2.2 weeks ago and I went to one of the talks that junk habits engaged and is on specifically on teaching mindfulness. And and one, The question someone asked was, So So you know, how do you How do you share this with the people you love? Because it is. You want them to have this teaching and and he's like, You don't I think he's like you want your kids to learn and have them learn it from someone else, like just have them see you do it, You know, let them learn from your example. But don't try to push it on. The people that you love

run far with exactly what's the main thing that's changed about the way that you interact with people after your start admitted.

It's interesting you ask that question and where my mind goes is what's different is my awareness of how I am a player in the relationship with the other person. So things that I used to think they were, where the other person you pushing my buttons or whatever, you know, blaming them for something I became much more aware of. Wow, like I'm having this reaction and this completely other thing is going on with the other person and so I can choose. Then how do I want engage with them about where they are? Um So So I think that that translates into the experience other people have of me is I became much more, um, empathic much, much more. I'm willing to let my heart show and to connect from my heart with people rather than trying to maintain this front of I've got it all together and I'm I've got that figured out, you know, And I know exactly what we should do. So I let myself be messier. In a way,

Yeah. I've also got something similar in the past every past couple weeks, realizing that just, uh, I'm having the reaction, someone else that's having a reaction. And I have not party to that. You're not party to what I've got going on either, and It's like it's so difficult sometimes because, you know you had intense experiences, his Children especial related to groups or, uh, family figures are anything like that. And then those things are playing out all the time in our condition behavior. And that's not there's nothing wrong with that. That's the way humans like this. But it just leads to a lot of really,

uh, difficult relationships, because we all have. We have these movies inside, playing inside of our heads that are just totally officer movie. They're not opposite totally different movie. Yes and yes, very difficult, especially, I think in our culture where we had the Enlightenment and we had this kind of identification with thought, as does the the most important thing going on in human existence, where it's like Thought is a part of human existence, your other parts of bitter

and I certainly grew up in a household where, like my my my personality and a lot of ways is defined by my relationship with my older sister. And she was very is still very expressive of emotion, and my parents and I are not, and I really like learned not to be like her And so for me, a lot of my journey through through meditation else just threw. My late twenties was figuring out How do I How do I tap into and re lease that other intelligence? That emotional intelligence,

if you didn't work, are, uh, uh, worked with the teachers and talk about the unconditioned mind at all? Or have

you heard that I have heard that term, but I haven't worked with teachers who who

emphasize it. Yeah. So I started working with Drew. That's always always about and he basically doesn't when we sit together with its remote. So I've actually never met a person is in Israel. Uh, until when we said together, um, we, uh he's like, there's nothing special to do here. We're just having a conversation. You can keep your eyes open, you can keep your eyes closed on. But he keeps on just kind of guiding me into this state, which is both the unconditioned mind and the conditions, because the unconditioned line is always there is theirs.

Part of us is totally instruct by the conditions that side of us and tapping into that kind of like that place inside of us. It's this? Um, uh, yeah, just not conditioned by by the various experiences that we've been through This look like that. I find it very powerful. Also very slippery and difficult to

Yeah. Yeah, well, in that, one of the things that my teacher talks about that I love is that we're all we're all trying to talk about, something that you can't talk about, where all the words are just pointing in a direction that can't define it. Um and that's the beauty of it and also super frustrating.

And there's somebody who works in cos I'm curious toe. What do you think As more of a zoo? Lot of things become automated than his technology kind of takes away a lot of the things that we traditionally do as human beings. What is the role of meditation in this world in that world where maybe a lot of jobs go away? What is this role? What is the role of meditation and Michael?

Wow. Well, I would say that my hope for the role of meditation is that the more people who are conscious, who become aware of themselves as something as that unconditioned mine, I got something that is not affected by what's around. Um, um the the more were able to connect with each other's humanity and and get beyond and above or whatever you know, where do you want to use from the the transactional and very material level in which we all interact with each other right now? Because we're still, you know, trying to trying to make sure we eat and try to make Syria as though you know, shelters and so forth. But I think there's actually the possibility that we can collectively break beyond needing that to define how we live our lives get. Really, we believe, from our own experience through meditation that actually what's important is none of this around us. Then all of the conflict around all of this stuff around us goes way and that.

Like what? As I'm talking about it, I'm like, That's crazy. How are we ever gonna get? I don't know. But it's to me. It's the there, so many more people all the time who are interested in this and practicing this. There's I got to be something there about an evolution of our collective

consciousness. Do you think that meditation is what is the relationship between meditation and evolution there one or I mean you individual evolution of our species while in evolution. Do you think there's a connection between meditation?

Well, I'm really curious about why we seem to as human beings, we seem to have this ability. Thio Medicine takes half into this disc consciousness

writer awareness in on itself.

Yes, and it doesn't appear we don't know. It doesn't appear that other beings have that, and and any more than, like, there aren't there. Lots of things that we have that other beings don't write like our village of manipulate tools is way beyond us. And that's evolution. So maybe this consciousness pieces is evolution, too. But it's also it's like this double edged sword, just like our ability to use tools right like that. That ability tohave that consciousness is a huge responsibility to be able to use that for the good of all these, and not just to somehow it yeah, exactly.

Yeah, that's the same thing with consciousness. The double edged sword of excitement is anxiety. The fact that we can experience the excitement also means we can experience anxiety that's really interested and animals I think particularly when you see it, Doctor, you see anxiety and dogs. But I think that's because they have co evolved with huge beans. And but I don't think you see it outside. I think you if you look at nature and animals and nature, you know, uh, lion attacking a deer or something like that the deer runs when it's a threat. You know, it doesn't seem like there's a space really for anxiety There, You know it.

Yeah, there's watchfulness. They know they're waiting to see. Make sure. Hey, is there a predator around? But there's not, like stressing about the predator that isn't future. Yeah, which is what we do right with these

Amazing mind. Interesting. Yeah, well, yeah, for me, a meditation. Seems, it seems, on an individual level of it that my consciousness is involving. And there's something about EPA genetics, like like how we we essentially change our genes by doing the behavior way pass. You know, if I would have kids 10 years ago, it would have been different than if I could cause now, because I've done a lot of that. Had a lot experience, have been conditioned in a lot of different ways that have all been reflected in my jeans, and I feel like meditation has has a place somewhere in there.

I mean, I even felt that with the way that I went through the pregnancy with my especially was my first child was just like to be going through it with a degree of consciousness that I had at the time of six months after the positive returning it still like pretty heightened in terms of my mind awareness internally, especially because the possum is such a practice of noticing what's going on internally. Um, and I'm sure that that on some level impacted how he formed inside

of you. That's really interesting. Did you How was the breathing at the time of giving birth was it was What do you think?

Your meditation practice. Help. You know what was what was so amazing to me about giving birth to him? Waas. Because of this intense focus I had on being here. Now I'm really just noticing everything and having so much practice being like discomfort because pregnancy is uncomfortable. Giving birth is uncomfortable like no question about it. But I was so keenly aware of the difference between experiencing intensity and interpreting it as pain that I honestly, through that whole process giving birth did not experience pain. It was incredibly intense. Is beyond intestine of any physical experience I've ever had. But I never had those moments like I can't do it or like it hurts too much or whatever. It was just like, Whoa, okay, I'm waiting for the next breath Now

that's what I decided. A yoga traded a prenatal weekend. You've been teaching and red. Afterwards, I talked to my teacher about it. He's like, Oh, pregnancy, that's really interesting. That's a perfect example of the condition on condition mine because it's something that happens. Your body just starts reacting, you know, immediately after like 30 days or something like that, the body's already reacting. Started to release hormones and everybody that comes outside of your control

totally. And it's incredible to experience that happening in your body and just feeling if such a letting go and just allowing Wow, this is this is what my body's need to do. I just let it do. It

is really interesting. It's interesting. I'll never, ever

no fad to me. And it only happened. Let's get Thio.

I think we got about five minutes left. How can people find within meditation?

So the very best and easiest thing to do is come to our website. So it's within meditation dot com. You can just Google Meditation Studio, San Francisco. We come right up and you can come in person. We are on Sutter at Montgomery 1 10 Center so truly right down downtown.

So, uh, what is the most exciting thing you've got planned for the next six months with?

Well, we're doing a lot for having a lot of conversation around events right now and starting to get back into having periodic events. I was just meeting with some of my teachers yesterday about creating periodic, hopefully monthly events where teachers create an experience. It's a combination of guided meditation and authentic connection between the people in the room. So you come and you get settled in through meditation you're in. That's more still an authentic place yourself, and then you have a way to connect in conversation with one or two or three other people in the room with you from that place, genuinely and authentically.

That's really interesting. One thing I've noticed when I do group meditations, I met it. Practicing meditation brings me in and as an introduce, then also makes me more introverted. So it becomes more difficult to speak with people right afterwards. So I highly recommend thinking about some way toe, uh, help those introverts. But I'm not

well. And, you know, in my experience, it's been really helpful. Thio offer specific prompts and also have it be impair toe. Let it be as intimate as possible. Um, so that it doesn't feel like I'm sharing all of me with too many people. It's like I've got one other person and we're just sharing off this one thing, that making it very continue in tow. So that's one way. But I'm sure there are others.

Cool. No. Well, thank you so much. Thank

you. I really appreciate being able to talk about all that. Obviously, I care a lot about being here now.