when they invented, like, price tags on things. I think the other impact that had is it reduces some sort of Congress overhead like you don't have to worry about. If you're getting a fair price or not, you can just go by the things you want and like, not stress and getting rid of that stress. I think really like freeze your brain up to do lots of other

things. But it also makes us unlearned or untrained in How did d'oh negotiation for things that you really care about? Welcome to the crazy wisdom podcast. Today was a special interview I did with the Maya Bittner. She is a graduate of Olin College and has been in technology for a while, and I'll let her explain. Let her introduce herself so you could know more about her. But I really enjoy this interview. Definitely talked a lot about stuff from what Steven Kobe talks about in his book Seven Habits of Highly Effective Individuals. I hope you enjoy this episode. I do want to let you guys know that I am doing an online course with Anders Jones CEO Facet Wealth, who raised $40 million in Siri's a. So if you're a startup founder looking to raise your seed stage or your Siri's A. I highly recommend applying to this it is application only so that we can get the right people in that onboard. So go and apply at Stewart Allsopp dot subs stacked dot com In that, Stuart Allsopp dot substance dot com could be a great course. I'm real excited about it.

It's going to be live training, so you'll have an opportunity to ask him questions. And he's at the hyper growth scale, so it raised its seed stage is serious A. And now I got the money to basically put fuel on the fire and take this thing to the moon. And that's a really important stage for people who are just starting out, because the way that I've figured out how to prevent the most stress future stress is to pay attention. People who have recently done something that you're about to do on. So Anders is doing that right now, so he's raised money so he can tell you what it's like in 2019 to raise money, probably want to do it quicker rather than later, because recession probably is coming. We're in the longest, uh, were longest bull market in recent history, probably for a long time.

So you probably want to do it quickly on DSO. Yeah, Andrews has a lot of information about that. So if you want to check out the course, it's Stuart Allsopp dot sub stack dot com. Please let me know your thoughts on this episode. I'm a Twitter at Stewart Allsopp. I I would love to hear your thoughts. If you do like it, please leave us a review in iTunes Spotify stitcher Any of those places have a great day. So welcome to the crazy wisdom podcast. My guest here is Maya Bittner. I got that right, right. That's right on. I'm really interested to hear your thoughts on.

Basically, everything will just get right into it. Like, what is the biggest thing that's happened in the last week? Most interesting thing. Most insightful thing.

Most interesting, most insightful thing. Um, you know, I'm a little I just had a party yesterday, and so that's what's on my mind is kind of this party I hosted and what that brings up around like changing community in San Francisco and I really love San Francisco, but I feel like a lot of friends left. Didn't that I have friends here still, and it's a real time of transition for a lot of people. A lot of people have gotten some success in their career, and now everyone's asking what next

and so interesting about San Francisco and general, particularly this party kind of thing. So we got, you know, like technology here. We've got some other things here. New Age thought like meditation. All these different things kind of are all nexus is here, but there's also this weird professional thing that comes into it as well. A lot of people have parties for professional reasons. What your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think it's really interesting. And I think, um right kind of this like rat race thing is very interesting because I do think a lot of people are proud to be a part of that and to kind of be optimizing and to be in it. And it's interesting, like I was tweeting about this recently that a lot of other people call me ambitious, but I wouldn't call myself ambitious, cause I'm not really looking to achieve any certain thing. I feel like I like working at a seven out of 10 on the hardness scale, and I really like that. Like, that is what I'm going for. And it just so happens that if I do that every day, the things that happen have been getting more interesting and more public and bigger. But I'm not doing it for the accomplishment of doing

it for the work that seven out of 10 that 10 skill tends to move. So you're doing seven out of 10 and then it kind of changes.

Well, that's what someone said is they said your baseline might be kind of weird. So I do think that's a good thing to point out. Um, But yeah, it is funny when you say, like, oh, like, um oh, I'm not so not particular money motivated And, um, like one of things. I recently sold my company, and every now they're like, Oh, what your golden handcuffs like, When can you leave? How long do you have to stay? And I'm like, I don't have to stay and

because you don't the money aspect of the salary doesn't matter

exactly. And and there are incentives for staying from it. But everyone has that. And I don't think you can choose your life decisions based on the steps of the Senate. But it just looks at me like what you talking about?

Interesting. Go back to your original point. Earlier point was that somebody said something recently, which is that the more you seize opportunities, the more opportunities arise. Basically, would you agree with

that statement? Yeah, I definitely think that there. And there's some kind of flywheel effect around taking risks where there's an asymmetrical reward payoff, too. So it's like you're take your risk and it might be bad, but usually the goodness it could be totally outweighs the bad. And so, like, as you take risks, you get more things and you can take bigger risk and kind of like, great. And I think this is, You know, a lot of conversations about privilege like this is kind of what privileges to

take those risks. Yes, because you don't have the I kind of like, uh, what was the framework that the guy had about having your food, your water, your housing? All these

imagines higher, right? Right. And I think right. It's like, Well, if you're born white like you can start out like taking some bigger risk because you won't you have, like, less to lose. You could fall back on and then does you start out taking those risks? And like I said, it compounds over time and you get you just start out with a little advantage and it compounds into being this huge advantage

for time. I've thought about this a lot, and so growing up I was. I grew up here and one of my didn't get that much from my family in terms and to get some things in terms of my family, from understanding what it means to operate at a high level in terms of business and stuff like that, things that are really important that if you don't have access to at a young age, it's harder toe kind of enter that world. I got a lot of it from my best friend's mother, who was the who is a bio tech investor in the CEO, and she kind of liked ass down and it was like like this is how things work on. So that was really interesting that that Without that, most people kind of don't really realize that that is a huge, huge thing, because I was able to get like downloads from this person who had been operating at this high low for a very long time. It's incredible how you earn your stuff,

so my family is. My family is definitely a family of hustlers, and that's also on its way out of things like Hustle culture is killing us all, which may be true, but But my family is certainly a family of hustlers. And so I mean, my dad. So my dad negotiates everything so we would go to, like are the high school play and the kid would be like tickets or $2 my dad would be like, Can you give me a deal on the ticket in the high scores? Like I don't know, man, I was just told this Celtic, you know, like that. This is like a charity and he's like, What if we d'oh like five tickets for $8 or what if any?

And he's like, What if I was your mom like, would you charge her mom $2? And you know what this poor kid and my dad's just always making a deal. And so both of my parents were in their own businesses. My dad's financial advisor. My mom's a nutritionist, and they ran their own like consultancies. My sister does. She buys houses for like $80,000. They're just the worst houses you've ever seen, remodels them and then rents them out. Things like that's her. That's her hustle on down. And so, like,

just sort of surrounded by this all the time. That, like everything is a negotiation and every king like examined things. And if you see the true value of things differently than other people, there's a lot of arbitrage opportunities

there. This is something that I learned traveling and living living in other countries, particularly Thailand, where we're negotiating. It's just like a part of everything. And you used to be here, used to used to go into the market and stuff like that. Everything would be negotiable, but and actually and there's a couple of shops in Thailand who started to do this, particularly around tourist areas, they would actually start setting set prices

because I'll put the price tags on it. Yeah,

because what negotiation What a negotiation mentality does is offer differential pricing based on who could negotiate better. So it actually gets at some of this privilege thing because you can prejudice thing because you can charge different prices for different peoples. I mean, you know, they they're the most likely thing was that they're foreigners would come and get charged with different price because they're foreigners, which is actually at the state level in Thailand mandated.

So, as I said,

probably endorsed, Yeah, the national parks. There is a different price for locals supposed toe.

Cuba has totally different currency is for tourists and locals interesting to achieve the same effect. But yeah, I think when they die when they invented, like, price tags on things, I think the other impact that had is it reduces some sort of cognitive overhead like you don't have to worry about. If you're getting a fair price or not, you can just go by the things you want and like, not stress and getting rid of that stress. I think really like freeze your brain up to do lots of other things.

But it also makes us in a incapable of making, not incapable on unlearned or untrained in how to do a negotiation for things that you really care about, I guess a little. Yeah, yeah, because I guess also another thing, because all the other things, like social Capital and other things like that, you know, like relationships. You kind of this negotiation things and everything like that. And you have to figure out what you want. And so I think that's a training in some levels, and I was untrained for it, and that was very bad at it in Thailand, like over shit. 10 years of getting because it was emotionally very challenging for me to say that I wanted this and stuff like I was never trying to do it.

So what do you think? Like, I have no negotiating my rent a couple times in San Francisco when before moving into a new apartment. And I think so. This is my favorite way to save money because one time it lasts as long as you live there. It's huge amounts of money compared to other things, but a lot of my friends are like what they just Then they would be really uncomfortable with the idea of like negotiating on the listed price

from apartment. And how do you do it?

Um, how do I do it? So usually it is like towards the end of the process because, you know, you view it and you talk to these people and you apply. And then towards the end, I say, you know, like I love the apartment would love to live there And if I can, If there's something I'm not using often try and offer that as a trade. So, like, the apartment comes with a parking spot in the garage, but I'm not gonna use that. So in exchange, like can I get $400 a month off the rent? Or I'll say like I love it.

But, you know, I have another place that is $400 a month less, and they're really equal to me, you know, Personally, I would love to have you as a landlord specifically, and so if we can get this is the least amount, that would be ideal. But I don't want to put you in awkward position. So, like if you don't want to do that, that's fine. I have another place.

This is when somebody gets interesting. A friend of mine once said that he lived in India and he learned how to do sales in India because there, they've got it. They've got it down is to how you could be very, very polite and very warm, right, while still being a That's like a key thing to understand.

Well, I never imagined I mean, sometimes, right? So people are impressed that I negotiate my rent and things like that. This all feels easy. I feel like the hardest things I have done in my life were, uh, selling ads in my soccer calendar in ninth grade and selling you sell random pieces of junk as fundraisers in, like, seventh grade doing things like that. Like I was not on people's doors. I went to sell ads. I went into these random businesses. I got nabbed from an antique coin business, you know, and I was asking them,

Can I have $100? And I'll put your logo on the soccer calendar that we sell that year on walking into a business as a as a 14 year hold and asking them for $100. But that was it was so much harder like that was, and I really feel like that was kind of my boot camp. And now I'm like, real life is so much easier than selling ads in a soccer. Callen,

did you have any mentorship to do that? Where was that totally on your own idea. You just like, okay, we needed an ad. I'm just gonna go find

this'll was a program. I mean, we've sold ads every year in the calendar

was unexpected

thing. It was expected

that anybody is telling you like, this is how you do this. And you just

went in there blind with didn't have mentorship I had. You know, my parents always say I was like, Oh, my God, I really don't want to do this. And my parents, their catchphrases always have faith in your ability to do that, which is, like, supportive, but not your honor. Not specifically helpful. Uh, although I think my dad did buy an ad for his own business, so that was specifically helpful, But I think we were incentivized in some way. I remember the details, but they look we were incentivized individually sell ads.

Eso this brings up the reason I asked that question. It's because of uncertainty. Uncertainty is a common thing that keeps people from a lot of doing a lot of things. They fear a lot of things, and so they don't do it. Based on this kind of like amorphous blob of like what could happen has shown up in your life recently, or what is the big task you've taken? I think

we'll end so no, Uh, and like I said, you know, it's really hard to sell calendar ads. I remember I started was a soccer referee when I was 11. I was really hard to do that and get yelled at. I taught snowboarding all through high school, which was also hard on teaching these people older than me. How does an award? Um, I feel like all of that was so much harder

than anything, anything, anything. So you've been challenging yourself at the level of seven out of 10. What is what is the most recent

challenge? Who? That's a good question. So the most recent challenge is, um, what I'm trying to figure out, like I'm learning that I have a pretty high risk tolerance. And so, having realized that the next step is what we do with that. Like given that I have a pretty high risk tolerance and I'm willing to take more risk. More people. How can I use this trade about myself to have the greatest change on the world than to do the most good in the world? Um, so that's kind of a current thing I'm thinking through. I think current talent I have, um, is so I work.

I work full time on I invested advice, start ups on the side, and so, trying to just figure out my calendar and where the priorities and what is the overarching vision? I feel like I've been very reacted the last year, and that's not how I want to live my own life. I wantto, um, be deliberate. I know that don't work. What I usually do is I kind of go to a different place outside the office that's quiet with a notebook, and I do my hard thinking. I think of it and like the creative thinking, and I decided I'm gonna d'oh and I end up with a to do list, and then I can go back to the office and just execute on their to do list. Um, I realize I haven't done that for the big picture idea of my life. That I'm just doing whatever email shows up in my in box and that I really want to do that exercise where I sit down and plot out like, Wait, what am I trying to accomplish here?

Thing to do that is to either draw it out orbit of eyes in your head the moment before you die and kind of visualize like visual at that point. What is it? What are people doing at their funeral? What are they congratulated for? What are they secretly saying? They hate about

you, like just to flesh out the whole picture. That visual you don't

I have tiptoed into it before I death is a very helpful thing that I use a lot in terms of, just like the experiential understanding about what does it mean? It's kind of like this great uncertainty thing that people lot of people meaning on, but all that meaningless by default, inaccurate because we have no idea what it goes on after that, so you can't. So it's it's to go back to that uncertainty. That's the great answer. That's like the big uncertainty. Whereas people have these little uncertainties and they're all kind of reflective

of this. They're all religion, the one that we're necessarily wrong. It out. That's interesting.

So that could be really helpful. Another one that could be helpful is Gmail. Just, uh, uh, integrated a future where you can send your humanity scheduled email to yourself where you can send your schedule an email to anybody. But you can send one to yourself 55 years down the road, 10 years down the road and you can You can map out what I want to see That person. There's a there's a service in this did this 10 years ago, and I actually did it on. I'm reminded that I have another one coming up. When I turned 35 another one turning up with a 40 the one that came when I was 30 I was really interesting because it was mostly about languages, so I mostly wanted to learn languages and actually ended up learning. I don't think I learned the language is I wanted to, but I learned ended up learning other like other words. So it's interesting way to do that. It's all just a way of focusing. That's one of the beauties of the things that we have as human beings. We can all other animals seem to only have a present moment awareness thing. But we are able to reflect into the future and reflecting past and as if they were really happening

well. And you're talking about meditation and New Age stuff earlier, and I think that that ability and even propensity to think in the future and in the past, So it's really harmful for

us. Exactly. It's this constant back and forth where it's like I have this ability. But then I could get trapped in this ability and think it's really think it's think it's actually like think that the thing I'm thinking about is actually is what we're living right now, or we will let its investors. But

you've just made it up and to be like, comfortable with how uncertain that is, why I think a lot about. I think it's a Winston Churchill quote, but you know the one about how it's important to make plans even though nothing ever goes to plan. I think that contrast is important to embracing

life. Let's talk about planning.

What have I planned recently? So, um, plan this party recently that I did yesterday. It was okay. I'm now, like, reconsidering my enthusiasm for planning parties. Yeah, Um, really, like catching up with people one on one or in small groups and so

a big group. It's harder to catch that. What you're doing is you're engineering serendipity for other people, essentially

right and creating that, which is cool. And the other thing that I'm doing is I'm avoiding scheduling, which are very interested in interesting. So I say, I'm like, Look, that's happening on June 30th at 2 p.m. Show up or don't I will be there and that. Yeah, I, um I think scheduling I find more stressful than most people.

I agree. And yet my because of what I've chosen to do now that they have it scheduled, it's now two months in advance. And so I've basically interviews every day, twice a day for a month on and other stuff going on after that. And it's like I could never plan six months in advance before this on DSO and I didn't like to play and I hated it on now, like I'm stuck in it. But the thing I'm doing is so fulfilling that I'm okay with that minor.

That stress Thio. It's like the low level stress, but the bigger picture is is more. Yeah, I think I haven't. So I have this kind of itch to move to New

York. I also

know it's the best city.

Like while you're young like Yeah.

Yeah. So I've never lived in New York before.

Have you know, I've always gone in the summer, so I think I have an accurate his position

in New York. But yeah, it seems like a bucket list item I want I want to take it off. I really wanted to at some point in my life now seems like a good time. But you asked about planning. And, um, I feel like in some ways I'm sort of not planning or delaying my life and not even investing in my life here because I'm trying to put the pieces in place to get myself to New

York's. And that's that's what happened to me in relation to San Francisco about nine months ago. I had to make a decision Mr whether I was traveling for three months and that was like I had rented out this place for three months. And I was I was basically like, I could have kept on going or come back and retaking the least, and I decided to come back to San Francisco and that. But until I made that decision, it was very difficult because it was like that

kind. You're not investing in anything, did you? Did you like or how did you feel about having that sort of artificially like forced decision point with the lease and everything?

Uh, well, that was the hell. That was helpful constraint. Because without that, I wouldn't have had to make that decision. And I made a decision, and I'm happy with it. Even though a lot of times like I get this urge to go travel and stuff like that and, like live in another country were like, I almost I almost toys the summer in San Francisco. That's difficult, cause we got the fog and and it's like it's weird mixture of like it's cold after wear a jacket, but go 30 minutes away. It's like a beautiful gorgeous but s so It's like this this summer thing in San Francisco on, So I want to escape that and go somewhere else. But this is the 1st 1 I'm doing it a long time.

So I'm staying here like now. It's like, Now there's all these little things and I've got this idea in New York like what you're thinking. But there's all these little things, like an opportunity. That's location based in San Francisco, which gets into opportunities here. Yeah, which gets into interesting thing I've started to think about. I do most of my stuff distributed. I like doing interviews in person, but I do a lot of interviews distributed doing most of my meditation practice with other people distributed. And one of the things I'm starting to with my life is starting to make it. That work always happens by default virtually. But then life personal decisions happen about travel and stuff like that are made on personal decisions, which I think is almost viable now because we have these tools. Uh, what do you think?

The tools air Really good. Um, I write So in some ways I feel old fashioned. But then when you made that distinguishing thing between work and personal life. Like because I really feel like with personal life there's no substitute to sitting next to someone on DDE, right? You notice all these little things and all this quick, real time thing. And I feel like you even have all these, like, miniature little facial muscles that does that have, like, does that could translate it on Zoom? I'm not sure that it does. I'm not sure that you can even see it fast enough that the refresh rate is quick enough to catch the little things that we do with our face that are really important for understanding. Someone are saying like hey, like you did something weird.

They're like, Did you want to jump in and say something or what? What did that bring up for you? Um but I think for work. I think it depends. Honestly, I think it depends on the type of work that you do. It's how whether that works remotely or not, because that's kind of what I'm currently grappling with is you moved to New York. I would look, I want to keep working for time. Time is not

normal company, and so is there an opportunity

they would, Yes, but I think when you are remote at a company that isn't remote, I don't think your life is that easy or happy.

This is. I've been doing a lot interviews with people who run remote distributed teams. And most of them tell you that you can't. You can't. You can't have half and half. You have to do one or the other.

I think it's really hard to do half and half. Or maybe if you started with everyone remote, you could create a headquarters that people come into because you have the culture of working well with remote teams. But I think I mean, time is very much it is in San Francisco. There are some people who work in other places, but yeah, but really, we're not. We don't really have remote employees. And so I think there would be a lot of overhead in terms of communication and sending processes and tooling and things like that that I'm not sure I'm excited

to take on. Interesting. So New York, What else about what is it about New York?

Well, I like so so many things. I always love cities. I really like really like smart, ambitious people and common complete. But I do kind of feel like there's not a lot of variety to the smart, ambitious people who live in San Francisco really feels like if you're smart and ambitious, you almost certainly work in Tech. Um, which is which is fine. And it's like a love tak, Um, but I'm just feeling a little bored, a little restless. And I think that New York has smart, ambitious artists and lawyers and people who work in finance and fashion and media and those professors. And that just is like a whole variety of people in all these different backgrounds.

And what's interesting is this is a change for me. So I used to think like, oh, people in New York or mean There's a lot of rules and it's very rigid now. I'm almost in awe of the city because there's so many people and there's so many different backgrounds in different cultures, and they've created this this like rule set for here, the standards of how to behave in public and it's enforced. But I actually I have to really appreciate that,

you know, and I don't think they mean it all. I think I think New Yorkers are clear and direct, and that's something I really appreciate because I grew up here and it's the opposite here. It's like a passive aggressiveness. It's like, see, go to rule And if you it's really hard not to transgress that rule, uh, on. But yeah, but in New York is so clear it's like I went to give an example, ecstatic dance so good, ecstatic dance here. And that's like the ultimate new age. Kind of like like like, you know,

like so it's just it's it's the, you know, there's a lot of those long, real people there as well. I don't see it, but the altar. The basically emotional backdrop to that event is this type of like it be kind of like love peace. Everything's gonna be okay on. Then I went to one in New York. It was like it was like that, but with the real miss, and it was just like it was really beautiful toe to see that people were just like, straight up, like, you know, I don't like what you did there, but I love you and

like, you know, like, really know That's so interesting when I think that's the like. I don't like what you did there, but I love you. That is sort of the real heart. And, like, that's how you connect with people on in San Francisco where we're like, No, you're fine with everything. You don't really look right, but but they don't actually think so. Like it's It's hard to really build those those bonds people. And yeah, I also think like,

you know something. If somebody steps on my foot on the subway in New York, they're like, Oh my God, I'm sorry, because that's against the rules. They recognize the rules, things like that here in San Francisco, I mean the public, because I'm a big public transportation person everywhere all the time. Um and it doesn't feel like there is any sort of rules in San Francisco, and someone will stand on my foot for, like, 20 minutes on Bart. And I'm like, Okay, well, I can't wait to get off this train so that you're not standing on my foot.

Uh, why Public transportation? Why do

I always have I? I grew up in rural Washington's Day, and I would. It's like I would take the bus, which I would walk five miles to the bus, ran twice a day once in the morning and went to the afternoon. I would take the bus to our local town, just called Bellingham on. Don't take the but I love it like I love, um, that I can do other things. I love that because then it's like if your bus is stuck in traffic, it's like, Well, I was reading my book when we worked up in second traffic, and now I'm reading my book as we're stuck and it's sort of like, Interesting, as good

as anything. I can't do that if I'm if there are other people when I'm reading, I get so distracted, like, even

if they're really what do you what? But what do you think of like? Do you imagine what their lives were like or who they are examined? That what they're wearing?

You know, none of that. Actually, that's really interesting that really I haven't really looked at it until you just asked me a question, but I am reading, and then I just get distracted by the awareness or attention of other people. So it's like I don't I don't I don't know why

it is, but it's your self conscious and you

think that there is an element of, like Magdala activation, trauma and things like that. It's like I'm a part of me is always observing everything around me so that nothing get to me. Basically,

yeah, it's funny, I I feel more like that. So it's hard, like it's hard for me to relax when there's someone else in the room. It'll, um, And I've noticed this, like when? Like lazy Sunday afternoon, like hanging out with someone I'm dating like it is not. I am not as relaxes if they weren't there, And I think most people can be and I can't quite turn it off. Um, but not for, you know. So I feel like it's so anonymous, actually, like, delight in like nobody

knows me. Does anybody ever come up to talk to you?

So people will. San Francisco, you know, you sort of talking in general, sometimes people like yell things at me, but, uh, it doesn't feel like they're trying to connect with me, and so I kind of, you know, I just I just ignore everything

that's also anonymous.

That this thing is still feels anonymous and, like, even if they're like, you know, they comment on stuff and where it still it still feels anonymous, it still feels separate sometime. You know, I don't always speak the language is that they're talking to me? Oh,

yeah, that's a really interesting point about anonymity, because it's it's in a sense, it's also the city anonymity. It's expected that we don't talk to each other in the street, in the subway or anything like that. Actually, your friend is starting a business whose helps people to talk to strangers because it's actually really good skill to have to talk to strangers. Chart a CZ, long as you are aware of very quickly about whether somebody wants to talk to you or not. But I think I think it's I think it's really important to go. I've actually done it with him, and it's really it's an interesting

It's an interesting that sounds kind of wild.

It's therapy, and Thomas is that you are you're you're doing therapeutic work. You have to be very careful about what you put somebody into, because, like that's like the one of the biggest boundaries. Fear of public rejection is like right there with fear, deaths like, you know, it's like going back to that thing. It's like it's a deep

seated fears. Yeah, and it's It's so funny. So my neighbour, we shared the same house she was in the apartment above me. Um, two weeks ago, she moved to somewhere in Marin County and what she said, and she said, You know, I was expecting more privacy, but instead it's the opposite, and everyone's and everyone, you know, should they say hi when she takes her dogs out on a walk, they way when she's taking the trash out. She was like She's used to San Francisco.

You know, we have walls like all the walls, and the houses are right next to each other, and one of the things about that is you can't see and anyone's house because there's a wall there. But now they have space in the yard. And she said she can see into her neighbor's houses, which she hates, and they could see into her house. And she says she knows her neighbors better after living there for two weeks than seven years in my house, so it's a little oppressive because, um, you know, she said that at our house she would like go through the leg, are trash cans are kind of located on the sidewalk in front of the house and she said, You go through with things away and like pajamas or her slippers or whatever. And now that she lives in the suburbs,

she's like, I have to shower and get dressed to take my trash out because all my neighbors are going to see me and they're gonna comment on what I'm wearing and it's gonna be known in the neighborhood. And I just thought that was the most interesting idea that in the city it's like Sure you could. I mean, you could take your trash out naked. Probably no, e, no. It's like we're so we're so kind of like weirdly passive acceptance of whatever you want to do with your trash,

which almost is its own kind of ties into what I was thinking. So you've got San Francisco. We've got Marin County, which used which I believe is a bunch of people who were in San Francisco during the hippie movement And then I got older and wanted to move out of the city. I think that's correct. And so, in part of San Francisco is transcending Norm's not only transfer sending norms but transgressing norms as well. And so I think that is kind of its intact. It's in the New Age spirituality. It's in everything. Andi. I think that is kind of like you can't have that with without the passive aggressive like everybody's okay, I think those two are, like, very

related. It's two sides

of the same coin. Yeah, okay, What do you think? What?

Yeah, I think that I think it's inherent in both of them, and I think everybody is OK. It's the same as our conversation about New York San Francisco. Like, I think there's a lot of people who really are eager for that type of acceptance. But I think it also puts a ceiling on how intimate you can be and how well you can know people. If you're not sort of examining and being like, well, why did you take the trash out naked and like, What does that mean to you? And does it say something about like how you view the world in terms of like efficiency and time or what? Getting out that, Um, if you just like that's fine, you don't learn about how that

person's brain works. Nobody's comfortable with those. Not as many people are comfortable with those type of conversations where it will go deep either with a stranger with an intimate partner. What's harder to get to that intimate partner or intimate relationship with human friends, too? Because that is expected. Norma, is that everybody's got so many plans, they're all gonna go to these events. Nobody's gonna tell you like upfront whether they're actually gonna show up to the event. So it's like it's like it's like so many different options and kids in the candy, and that's just like the culture. And once he and that there's something about environments. As human beings, we adapt to the environment. Unless we make some really, really difficult lifestyle,

personal choices and stuff like that, we adapt to the environment again. So I go to the other countries and it's like I like I live there and I feel adapted. If he was kind of like that, I wouldn't say normal, but it feels like, And then I come here and it's like it's just get back in this very land where nobody will make a plan except for interviews. This is this is actually the funny part. People show up. I was vastly more like like like, but I was expecting, like we both had a calendar invite. It was expected that we show up at this time and, like so, I'm actually getting a lot of social. Uh,

this part of the reason I'm doing interviews is because it fills a something like this this like, Okay, we've agreed to a time, and we're going to be at that time. Both of us are gonna be at the time, and, you know, I get cancellations, but it's like it's not in the same ways as in my personal life s. So it's really interesting toe to see that I like, and I run enjoying

it, So yeah, I almost, um, What this reminds me so either there's a conversation around imposter syndrome, um, like, feeling like you don't forward, you're going to be found out things like that. And I don't feel like this at work. Like at work. I'm great. I'm like, Oh, I belong here and I know that I have good ideas and I take risks and as we talked about that compounds and does all kinds good things. But I feel like I have that with my social life where sometimes I worry, I'm like,

Oh, people will on Li like hanging out with me if I, you know, drive across town to their house to hang out with them or like if it's kind of like significantly compromised convenience in my life, Um and so when things have been working on is playing on like setting the boundaries for those things better. And like I had a 3 30 coffee scheduled for today and I texted him and I said, Hey, like, is it possible to move to five? If not, keep it a 3 30? But it's possible I would love to move to five. And he said, He said, You know, today is crazy because we're going out of town for the holidays tomorrow anyway,

like, can we just drop it to next week because I was like, That's great. But I've been trying to play with um almost becoming less committal like more San Franciscan, but in I like the idea of, like building my own sense of self worth and, like people would like to hang out with me even if I cancel plans with them sometimes and

things like that. Interesting. Yeah, And I guess it's staged because there was a stage where I was I was like that as well, whereas just like, I don't want to commit to anything, I want to keep my options open there like that in San Francisco Does offer is that much easier because the economics of the places Well, so, uh, because it's so expensive, long term to live here. Nobody buys houses unless they've been in an exit situation on. So the next situation is when somebody gets a lot of money after Attack exit and they can they can afford property here. So, uh, most people don't get to do that so they can't do long term planning. So they stay in Peter Pan Syndrome s. So

that's why they're trying to, like, grab, like, given that I'm only here for three years, I have to do the best things possible every night

on That's the promo. That's where this this kind of thing. It's really weird growing up here and living here and this

is like my home. So I'm not. Many people have

and so it's like an emotion, very emotional place for me. And it's a place where I feel most vulnerable on then and then in the personal life also is a vulnerable place because nobody will commit

interesting well and and nobody will commit and is making all of us insecure because it's almost like you have to build up your thing as the best thing you could be doing. I think there's some pressure

to do that. That's another thing as well, and that that's the point you made about joining the company because most people I don't working a company, and most people get their social validation here from working on, and I don't get that. So it's like I guess I'm now getting it from the way

you've gotta find. It's like where the ways I can get social validation that are fulfilling. Also, I need to pay my rent. What is the intersection

of all exactly interesting? So we I put on the thing that we're gonna talk about banking and all these other things, but I have actually most interested about Olin College College. For those who don't know what

what is all of Poland is a new engineering college that was started to revolutionize engineering education. They thought that engineers who we're coming out of schools were kind of solving the same problems in the same ways and that we really needed entrepreneur engineers who could think outside the box on and that there are a couple of big systematic problems with day. The engineering education is done today. Um, so yet the new school it's located in Needham, Massachusetts, and the first class graduate in 2006. 75 students per year. So we just crossed the threshold. We now have 1000 11 9 from all in college. You have ever graduated. But yes, it's a very, very small school.

And they do something special in the sense that you actually work on projects that you build out right. That's

part of the engineering. So it's all yeah, they call it, Do learn. In contrast, the most engineering schools, your 1st 2 years or theory and then your last two years, our application Oland, they say you do it first. And then after you do it, you learn how why did that work. And so, like your first semester of your freshman year, everyone has to build a robot that can walk up a vertical glass ball. And everyone is like, I don't know how to do this and just, like, talk to us like, let's figure it out like, you know and you and you figure it out where you don't know that you learn a lot from that. Well,

you get held back

and then, um no, it's not because it's not about, I think Cruz. Yeah, um, and then the next year after that, you, like, learn a bunch of the theory involved in. And then you feel kind of dumb because you're like all if I design in this other way is so much easier and then you do it again and then you learn Maur, and then you're like, Oh, that one was even not

good, interesting neck. It's into Nicholas, not some Tellabs kind of thing about, like theory and practice, and that if you're in a place that's kind of without clear output, you want to trust the person who's been doing it the longest and stuff like that. So you trust the plumber. Even other theory might not be correct. They're the ones whose body basically has built a theory and stuff like that. So yeah, and for engineering, that seems pretty clear. That that's that's something you probably want to Dio is basically learn how to do it, then learn the theory behind it. Exactly. People can get lost in theories and like and have absolutely no practical application of those theories.

And then you're in that mind world that we were discussing about, like just playing in the future change just because it's fantasy and there's nothing wrong with fantasy, but but, like, if you're

you have to keep allusions place right, you can't live your life in fantasy. Yeah, and that's all it is very much about, like impact and having even if you have a small basic thing that works and is in the world, like how much more valuable that that is, then visit the grand. It kind of feel like there are some parallels with the lean startup philosophy, um, which I'm really into. And so So I like

that, um and then cos you've built a company. You started a company. What was the most challenging thing about that?

So, um, as cofounder of two different companies, different challenges at hm, I think the most challenging thing. I mean, at my first company. So it's good founder of a company called Rocks Box. And for a lot of that, I felt just, like, deeply lonely, and I didn't So is very young a TTE the beginning of that as a clean three. And I didn't know any other founders. Really? Um, because all my friends were kind of they were in their first job,

but it was like second year is a PM at Google or something like that. And so that's what a lot of my classic Olin like graduated, went on to d'oh. Which is a very procedures position is really cool in there, working on a job like that. But we're just in different world. Yeah, we really couldn't connect on the challenges that I had, and we and so I didn't really have that social support. And the further for the first year and 1/2 or so at rocks box I was thes has a confidence. Cto Um fancy title for being the only engineer, and that is a really lonely position to be in and trying to figure out, Um, you know, and sometimes I would like I would think about couponing and it's like, Well,

we really want coupons because no one can run all these pro Mose and incentivize people Add tracking brings on this value on. I was like us really hard to build, and every time I think I don't want to build this like I don't there's all these other things. I don't want to do it. And then I would realize that if I didn't do it, Rocks Box wouldn't have coupons like there was no one else to do it on. And it felt a little bit like desperate and a real, very lonely, Um, for the first part of that, so that was very, very hard a pinch. My second company was totally different. So the challenge is there were more like rocks, box of rocks, walks,

the cofounder maggots. It's her idea, and she brought a bunch of both like I mean, she's just just like business genius. And it was her idea and rocks. That's a great idea, and it has incredible product market fit and customers love it. And because Meg did all that work around creating this amazing vision, um, I sort of took that for granted and then at pinch, like we really iterated and pivoted around trying to find product market fit and part of that I was like, Holy shit. Meg is a genius with rocks. Box isn't really like people liked it from day one. And we, you know,

we changed himself with the pricing and how that this worked on whatever, but the product was the same in our second company. We were like, we don't even know what the product is and we had these visions, But people don't like it. And that's kind of, um, you know, hurt your soul as well and in a different way,

Interesting. Yeah, the first point about about loneliness. I definitely understand that and working on something that is not like feeding your soul. And it's in a sense, like I think all of us have to go through that in order to understand what it is that we actually want. Because without the understanding now, that's your lucky you lucky people. out there who just get right into

it. I agree. And I think I mean, honestly, Like when I think about that time it rocks box was the only person build anything like my whole career is kind of built on that. Like, that's why I have everything I like both the like, the skills and what I accomplished, like, honestly, was really hard on a lot of people. You know, there's all these things, and so it was extremely painful at the time. Uh, I think it's so funny. Like,

I think if I was in that position, that CO founding Rocks box was made today like, I would do it so differently and just be so much kinder to myself. But then, you know, I don't know that I would have I would

have been able to. So you have to learn that lesson with, right? Exactly. So wait s so you got a couple minutes left? Personal life, professional life? What is the biggest lesson you've learned recently?

Mmm. The biggest lesson I've learned recently. I've been, um, working out. You know, like we're here myself in self worth and things like that. And I really feel like the biggest lesson has been around like my wants are valid, which actually feels like extremely radical to think through. And, um, and it's funny. Toso now kind kind of own those things and to say, like, I want this and someone's like what you can't like. You're unlikely to find. I have that on and I'm like, That's fine, But that doesn't change that. I wanted it

like that, Yeah, what do you How do you know the difference between a want and need?

I don't I think that's Ah, that's all my to do list. Is justice distinguish between wants and needs? I would say that I probably put like everything in the water. That's probably not serving

you Well, it's I mean, that's a difficult question for everybody because essentially, we all start out. I mean, that's because you're kind of getting into this. I wanted to bring up this point, but when you're starting your company and as a young person starting your company, we go to this development process, particularly from the ages of 12 to 19. Learned about this in the book Behaved by Robert Sapolsky about the neurobiology behavior where we are social beings. And so a large part of this frontal cortex makeup is our social relationships. That's why you go to high school. And it's all about dominance, hierarchies and everything like that. And then on then you start a company, and that is a social enterprise.

You're interacting with other people and on then, But your frontal cortex is still developing until, like, 27 or something like that. You're so you're still in this process of It's not quite as difficult as you are in high school, but it's really interesting that wants and needs that directly goes into wants and needs is well, because you can't figure that out until you're like in your thirties. Maybe unless you're lucky again. Some people are lucky and get it really early. I have very stable families and stuff like that. This is one of the challenges I'm facing this that that I didn't get a lot of things that I needed when I was a younger. So I'm doing the developed for

doing it now, which is fine, but it just means you have any other things until later as well. Yeah, I, um I really feel like I'm doing some things now that are cool and feel new and feel great that it does seem like a lot of my friends were doing when they were like when you d'oh! And I don't know why it took me an extra 10 years, but I was busy building a company and doing other things and not learning

basic social skills. What are the most important social skills? They've learned? Reason.

So the stuff recently, um, is like, not for me. It's like not justifying things were like anything or saying, um, like like, No, I don't want it. I don't want to get lunch next week, You know, like, uh

and not having a further clarification about

no reason, no anything. It's like I don't want to. That doesn't sound fun to me. It doesn't sound good to me.

I don't want to do it. Have you got pushed back?

I get so it's funny I get, um I think so. I do get some pushback, but I get the amount of pushback I'm expecting when I say that is like, ah 100 x, the amount I actually get, Um and so it's okay and getting some pushback. I think is good for me because it helps me kind of, like, clarified and solidify this dance. I'm out like, um,

it's important for you, but

I don't like Super Love Restaurant chain in San Francisco is like five or six locations. Uh, it's very popular with my friend girl. It's the only restaurant in service is I don't like right, and that's the one they go to. And so and I feel like I'm like, I really feel like I could should be able to veto one restaurant. Uh, and so that's been like,

interesting. And it's with the group. It's not necessarily with one other person, so there's a lot of conflicting

stuff. Well, it's not. I'm not usually eating with a group, but just it's like one person will be like Let's get dinner next week. What about Sucre?

And you're saying no.

And I have to say I'm like, you know, I really don't like Superfly. Can we d'oh any other restaurant? No. And it's been interesting for an eye because I always, you know, I kind of talk down to myself like I should

mrs

off Amenable? Yes, like, be able to do this and then I'm like, You know, I'm not that picky, Like it's one restaurant that I don't like and there's nothing on the menu. Well, I like their ice cream, but there's like no entrees that I like. And so I've been really leaning into this. I'm like, completely. It really seems like we shouldn't have to go to super.

And this is an interesting point about like individual ation and Maazel's hierarchy of needs and stuff like that, because we go through these stages in Steven Covey and his book Seven Habits of Highly Effective People talks about the bathroom co dependence to independence than two interdependence, and it's really

like they have to go through

independence. You have to have to go through it until you get to that point where you give just for the sake of giving, as opposed to giving for some sort of like seeking validation or grasping after after relationships

and stuff. Yeah, I think I might be in that middle phase right now, and I think I'm a little bit of an asshole. Be like Ideo. Well, it really seems, um, yeah, it's like being in that first ages really intolerable, and it really feels necessary for me to find out what end. And can I deal with Sue Villa or doing not wantto? Are they still gonna want to hang out? And and then it's like, Well, if the restaurant we're going to is so important in my experience of getting dinner with someone, maybe I shouldn't be getting dinner with them. It'll and kind of like sifting through all of these different things on. I do hope to make it on the other side, But I do think I've been like a little bit less friendly the last

year, and I mean, it's a part of the process and then like and I guess the goal is interdependence. But you can't you can get there. You can't like short cut

it. You can't skip steps, you know?

So, uh, if people are more interested in what you're doing and want to find out more about, how can

I find Twitter? Twitter at my V? Um, I have everything on Twitter. So that's both thes types of like personal growth questions and mighty deep thoughts and insecurities, as well as startup advice and how to build companies and which of my friends were doing cool startups on things like that. It is all on

Twitter. I really appreciate being open on social media because, like, a lot of people don't do it and they project an image. And I think now a lot of people are starting to do the opposite, which is to be to be riel. And then there's the being riel, but only but as an image as well, which is an interesting

thing. Well, and mine is mine looks not edited. It is edited on, and I actually do something interesting. So I post most tweets I post them, and it's all super stream of consciousness. But I post them to Social Media Management tool called Buffer, which spaces him out for the day. But more importantly, it gives me a chance to think about Do I really want to say this? And sometimes I look at this, I'm like, uh, this, like, sounds kind of racist,

And that's not the point I'm trying to get across here. Can I reword it so that I'm not tweeting things that look sort of racist, you know? Or it lets me, yeah, kind of. And a lot of times I looked at the stream of consciousness. I'm like, I can't understand what this is saying and I will reward it, Make it more clear. And I add Emojis feel like that. Things like that interdependence do have a slightly filtered Uh, but it is really. Everybody

does, though, because I was talking about doubt about this, and you give me a really good point, which is that it's related to Cryptocurrency, of all things. You've got a private internal life. I've got a private internal life. I've got a public external life that I manufactured. You also have the same thing. Every person has that on the same thing. And a lot of times people don't really realize that. And if you don't realize that you have a public persona and the private persona, you're not really and with the connection a crypto us that we have practice.

No, that makes sense today on. It's interesting, like post all these pretty personal things that Twitter and I get so many people reaching out over d ems, And I think for them it's something in between. They're not comfortable with having their public persona associated

with it switches back to private school. Well, thank you so much for coming out. So I hope you enjoyed this episode. I do want to make clear cause I have not made it clear in other places. And it has recently come to my attention that it's really important to be clear about this. I when I asked somebody a question. A lot of people have assumptions about why I'm asking him a question, and a lot of people assume that the person I'm asking is an expert on that question, because why else would I be asking that question? Andi, I just want to make sure that you guys don't have that assumption because that assumption is not correct about about my motives for asking people questions. Uh, I do believe there are experts. I am really interested in what experts have to say about their expertise. I do not believe that there are experts at life. There are no experts at life.

If you think you are an expert at life, you probably have a huge blind spot on DSO. That's the framework under which I ask questions. So when I asked somebody else a question, I'm not only asking them the question I'm asking myself the question, and I'm asking the audience the question. I do not believe that any of those answers have more value unless they are an expert in the subject that they're talking about. But I also find value and asking people questions about things they are not experts in because those have value to. It's not the same value. But, uh, you know, I'm operating from us trying to operate from a standpoint of not knowing of beginner's mind. And so with that, it's really important to just ask the question without expecting an answer that will change your life because most of us are dependent on other people for answers. I think that's a really dangerous place to be. You also don't want to be on Lee dependent on yourself for answers to, uh, it's just life is never that clear.