all right. Thank you so much For 20 into forward Thinking Founders, this is the podcast will be highlight. Undiscovered talent. We're scanning. Why Combinator, Pioneer Product Hunt, Twitter, Indy hackers, all these different networks to find really interesting founders and interesting projects and start ups. And we feature them on the podcast before you've probably heard of it. Any of them. And that's what's great about this is you get to follow along on the return as they become more and more successful and say, I knew them when So thank you so much opportunity in the forward thinking founders. And let's get into our next founder You haven't heard of. But you will. All right,

How's it going, everyone? Welcome to another episode of forward thinking founders. Robert Takina founders about their companies, their visions for the future. And have the two collided today? I'm very excited to have on the show Klee Jones, who is the co founder, the creator of Flutter Play. Welcome to the show. How's it going?

Thanks. That how's it going? Doing very well.

Good, Good. I'm glad it's going well. I'm doing pretty well too. I have my afternoon coffee. A couple of hours ago and I am feeling fantastic also fantastic, because we're talking and I think you have a really interesting product here, and I'm looking forward to diving in for people that don't know what you're working on. Can you talk about what is flutter and what does it do?

Yeah, absolutely. So I like to describe Flutter as a live dating up experience on the U. The unique twists that we have on kind of dating app is that we're actually only live once a week. So the APP is on Lee works on Sunday and at the end of Sunday. All matches and messages disappear forever.

That's awesome. So let's go through a I guess an example. You skate not a use case, but like a story that someone would get through. So let's say I was wanted to use the AP. I don't cause I'm in a great relationship just for the purpose of this pot gas. So I would sign up and you just walk me through. If I signed up on, like, Tuesday, he walked me through the flow. And then what happens on Sunday?

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, you can send up any time during the week. It's pretty standard on boarding process, similar to most of the dating APS you're gonna have. You know, your six photos you're gonna add the three prompt responses, which are pretty much just answers to questions. Your traditional like school, hometown company, job title, Um, all that and then you actually be put into a wait list where all profiles air, then reviewed. Ah,

this is just to ensure that we don't have any spam accounts, that we don't have any fraudulent or, um, inappropriate content being put onto the platform on. Then once your profiles accepted, you're put into kind of that dating pool. Um, now that dating pool doesn't open up until Sunday. And so the rest of the week, the APP is pretty much closed off. Now once Ah, once we hit Sunday at 5 p.m. Everyone that has claimed their spot to participate for that Sunday will then be put into a dating pool. They'll be shown anywhere from 30 to 40 profiles that we find to be most compatible to them. They then get to choose which ones they're interested in. Send likes to those profiles. And then around 6 p.m. So from 5 to 6 is when you're viewing profiles and then at 6 p.m. We announce who your matches are so prior to that,

you actually don't know who you've matched with. So this is to allow you to focus on the people that are liking you and focus on, you know, determining which people that you'd like to, um, to chat without evening that at 6 p.m. Everyone comes back onto the app for one coordinated conversation, right? And at the end of midnight. So from six to midnight, people are chatting and at midnight, everything erases forever. Right?

So this is really interesting. It's sound. Everything about the app sounds very intentional. I'd love to hear what gave you the idea or the motivation. Thio have it all kind of be in real time. I know. That's right. With a freeze it, But like you have an event at five and you have events at six. And 6 to 12 is like, kind of the time. And then it stops a 12. Why did you do it like that? I guess. How'd you make some of this product decisions?

Yeah, absolutely. So I can kind of go over. You know, the high level of why we're doing this event style dating on. Then I can tap into it I can tap into You know why we picked the specific times that we did being on two secs at 6 to 6 to midnight. Um, so kind of the inspiration behind water Waas. You know, I actually went into college and I had a starting first day of college. I was in a relationship and we broke up right after graduation on dso throughout my entire college career, I I've never been on dating apps didn't really know how they worked on that. I had kind of been thrust back into the dating world. I moved to San Francisco. I was single and really the, uh, the next logical step of what all my friends have been doing waas using dating outs Now kind of the what I discovered as I started.

You know, I filled out all my profiles and, um, and, you know, started matching with different people. But I was, you know, I had this feeling that people were seemingly disinterested in me. I would message these different women and, um sometimes would take days, weeks to get responses from people There. Was this the typical line of Sorry I'm never on this app. Um or, you know, So I I really use this and most of these conversations were just kind of fizzling out and dying,

And, uh, it was it gave me this this perception that the people that I was dating weren't really interested in me on it was it was kind of a self confidence hit with these people that you're trying to date with are not listening. It's almost like if you went out of date, went out on a date, you sat down for dinner. You're talking to this person and they're just on their phone the whole time, not paying attention. That's kind of the analogy. I like to use it just like not really being present there. And so, you know, I I you know, flat flash forward a couple months. Um, I actually am similar on instagram that I was that I found attractive,

and she responded right away, and we we ah, exchange phone numbers pretty quickly, and we went on a date, and now she's been my girlfriend for almost two years now. And so at that point, I kind of realized that there was a you know, this online dating experience could be something that was really on. That could be something that would work, right? I I had actually found someone Ah, that I deeply cared for from the internet. Um, and so that kind of got me to thinking, You know why? We're why was my dating app experience these maps that were designed?

Two. Help me meet someone. Why? Why were they failing? And I didn't. I wasn't able to go in one day from any of these dating apps. And so I started doing some research online. I started getting curious of like, Okay, what was I doing wrong And all the the top responses were, Well, you got to get their phone number right away. People are just unresponsive on dating apps on. People are unresponsive. People are ghosting. Um,

you know, these conversations air long and drawn out. And no one everyone had kind of attributed this, uh, unresponsiveness to disinterest. At least when I had started using dating apps. But I've never really thought Hey, you know what? People actually just aren't on dating APS 24 7 You know, people are on these different dating out's a couple hours across the month, and so the likelihood that you guys were on at the same time it's really low. And so me interpreting that is as disinterest. You know, it was kind of wrong, right? It was really just the fact that these people weren't on dating apps 24 7 just like I wasn't on dating apps 24 7 And so kind of the idea behind having you know,

coordinated time is to bring people on the app that the same time right toe have kind of not responsiveness in that presence. And then we pick Sunday cause Sunday's the biggest dating app usage day of the week, right? We did some research to unveil that on then. You know, we've been ta going with the time windows, right? So it actually used to be open all day. But the idea is that we want to continue to kind of shrink those windows. Ah, to you know, make that make those interactions even more coordinated because the more coordinated the experience, the more live in. The more present that it feels and so were increasingly trying to crunch that window, if you will.

So let's right now the window for chat is 6 to 12. So, Izzy, if I was a user, let's say I liked 30 matches that you sent me and then say, like, 2010 of them, like me back. So it's like 10 matches event from from 6 to 12. Am I now chatting with those 10 people just getting to know them them get to know me and then by the end, is it pretty much like give you give someone a phone number or your It's done, you know, for Is that is that kind of the us? Yeah, that you're created?

Yes. So one of the biggest KP eyes are, you know, one of the biggest KP eyes in the dating app. Space is phone number exchanges, right? That's

the biggest signal. It really Is that really a thing? Wow. Interest

it ISS Yeah. I mean, you know, the idea of a dating app is like, let's get you off. The dating app is really designed to be the icebreaker, and it's to get you to a more responsive form of communication. Whether that be snapped chatter, instagram or phone number. We just want you to get on a more responsive platform. It's very rare that you'll see someone go straight from the dating app to the date. They're always going to exchange some sort of information beforehand. And so you know, our our goal is to get those conversations to two, then convert into that phone number exchange. And so that's kind of one of those. Those main,

uh, Kibby eyes that were always tracking is like, How can we help these? You know what? What is it? The environment that's going to help convert these conversations into that phone number Actions ultimately, right. So the goal is in that six to midnight window. We want you to, you know, have a response of commerce conversation. Um, you know, see whether you'd be interested in that person and six hours. Trust me, six hours doesn't seem like a lot,

but it's plenty of time when you're having a really engaged back and forth conversation to get to know, to get to know each other, um, at a high level and decide whether you want to exchange phone numbers right and then from the phone number, you can decide whether you want to, you know, take progress to go on that date or schedule a date that week. Right?

So I have a pretty nerdy question. Very like techie thing to ask. So for I'm actually amazed by this tracking metrics by exchanging phone numbers, it makes sense, Like Ellie. I totally understand why I'm kind of curious. Do you have, like, a an algorithm or an event checker? That way, when something that resembles a phone number is sent, you just check that off. Or how do you actually track that? Just cause, like, the nerd in me once, it was just curious.

Right? Right, right, right. So so, Actually, funny enough. Apple has ah, in there in swift, you can actually track when, uh, a text string recognizes a phone number. And so when that phone numbers then recognized by the apple system, we use that kind of as a proxy that a phone number is being sent. Um And so any time we see a phone number show up in a conversation, you know, that event is then triggered to then say OK,

Hera phone number was exchanged on and then sometimes we'll use at symbols as well as kind of like a proxy as to whether, like Instagram is being exchanged. But that's a slightly less accurate, but you know, good enough. But really, the k p I we look at it is that phone number exchange? That's that's how we, uh, how we do it.

Yeah, that's awesome. How has a customer, I guess user acquisition been. I feel like this is one of these things where someone hears about it and they're like, Well, crap like, that's interesting. I could I could give up a night Not one night this Sunday, it to try it out. I'm actually gets instead of asking, How's your customer acquisition? I'm curious. What is your messaging? Do people to get them on? The app is a like What do you do in this Sunday? I don't know. Like I love to hear how you're getting users right now,

right? Absolutely. So there's definitely, you know, messaging, marketing messaging that we're using to try to attract kind of those early adopters. But, you know, in reality, actually, to build a real dating app community, you have tohave word of mouth, bro and the reason that people are going to download dating, APP says, because their friend went a day from a particular dating up for their friend. Met someone on a particular dating up. And then that's really the greatest former marketing.

And so what's kind of work to our advantage is because our app does have that very high conversion rate. Getting people to this fund members. It actually helps people. I have something to talk about. You know, I was reading a book called Contagious by Jonah Berger, and he really talks about how you know we assume most digital word or we assume most word amount happens digitally. But when in reality, 93% of word mouth still happens in person. And so it's really giving people you know what? What Jonah calls is Ah, social currency, right? Which is, you know, I match with this person.

Um, I am going on a date with this person that that's something that they see provides value to conversation and guess what? I did it on this really cool platform, and so that's kind of the greatest former marketing. You know, I I'd like to say that kind of the product does most of the marketing itself by just kind of providing that experience. But then there are other growth hacky ways that we're that we're trying to get some of those early adopters and, um, you know, there's there's kind of a slew of different things that will try to kind of onboard users and funny ways of my co founder and I were in the very early days handing out flowers two people in one of the neighborhoods in San Francisco with with little digital Q R codes on them. And, um, you know, telling people haven't have a nice day and try, try, flutter. And that actually worked pretty well. But, um, a bunch of different random customer acquisition tactics at this point.

Yeah, that makes sense. That's definitely a cool mindset. One I like a lot in a world where there's growth, hackers and nothing wrong with them. I'm technically a growth hacker, and my job like I do growth for Brenda by you know, when you're when you're really early stage, I do think that that just spending the resource is you would have spent on a gross team, just put it into product and make the product that much better. Um, does really lend, um, more marketing power. And that's actually how I'm kind of treating the podcast. Yeah, I feel like a lot of people,

like, you know, as much promotion is the processes that can link. I don't promote shit. I just like trying to get the best guess that I can get on and over time as people receive. Like, Oh, wow. Like, these guests are actually legit and, you know, and they're they're getting better. I'm hoping that the same thing happens with the podcast. So I were, like, on that front,

100% I'd love to hear. How? How do you think about the future with with this? With this platform, there's a lot of really interesting things I'm just thinking about within of the an event based model. Um, I don't know. How are you thinking about, you know, future products? Um, you know, and just expansion into different stuff,

right? Yeah. It's a great question. Um, you know, I get that that question asked a lot, and I think it has a lot to do with how we perceive the future of dating. Um, as a whole. Ah, there's a lot of studies. You know, study came out from a Stanford professor talking about how you know 40% of people now, 40% of relationships starting today, um are coming from online, right? And so there's this major trend shit towards actually meeting people online.

And I think with that there's this old stigma about dating online that is now subsiding on. People are actually finding these dating APP says less of just the dopamine boosters like, Oh, let me find out who likes me. But more of like this is a place I can go find a real relationship. This is a place I can I can meet someone and I think you know, the future of dating. I think that there is a future where digital becomes that first interaction for most relationships, right? It used to kind of be the bar or meeting through friends, where you would interact with someone you'd exchange pleasantries, get to know them for for, ah bit of time, and then you would, you know, exchange phone numbers and then plan a first date.

But I think that that is really shifting digitally, and I bet shifting into the dating apps. But in order to actually make that interaction successful in a healthy manner is to have people showing interest in one another. You know, I think one of the biggest thing that plagues the dating app space, you know, as I kind of alluded to before Is this this difference between disposition, all bias and situational Blas? Um, as humans, we always use situational biased to say, You know, I'm not responding to people quickly because I am super busy, but they're not responding. Maybelle attribute disposition all bias to the other person in every situation. Say they're not responding to me because they don't like me,

right? And so I think being able to bring this presence back into digital data and can actually help us solved that first interaction with people when they're having that first interaction on a romantic level. And so I do think there is a future where, you know, we introduce video, chat date or avatar Jap date, and I think a lot of people are starting to move in that direction. Mom will just released video chat. The league came out with league live, and, um you know, I think that's definitely trending in the right direction. But I think to get their ultimately, we have to fix this coordinated usage peace. First, we gotta fix this.

This presence that's lacking in the dating up space right now. And so I think that there is a future where dating APS do become that first interaction. But it has to be done in a way that has that presence, if you will, right?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, one more question and lost the final couple. Have you talked to many, um, veces about this or investors? And it's so how? Had, like, I feel like inherently veces like don't like dating app because so many haven't worked out. But I do feel like this is the product decision that you made are, like, really unique and change a dynamic a lot. Have you had trouble talking to be sees about that? Sort of. They'd gotten it.

Or are you just Bootstrap? Look, I'm curious. Are they getting it? If you're talking to them about it,

Yeah, Yeah, that's a really great question. So it's It's funny I in the beginning of starting this, um, that was the biggest piece of advice was, don't started dating out because no one's going to fund you on. It's going to be very difficult for you to raise money. Um, on. And, you know, I think initially, in some of these conversations ah, people were would put us off and they would say, you know, this is just another dating app.

We don't invest in dating apps anymore. So many people have gotten bird. And I think that there's this misconception. Um, you know, between ah, dating absent what they used to be and dating apps. Now I think in the very early stages dating app Swor matchmaking service is so you had tender that created this whole swiping functionality. You had these acts that were coming out with very niche markets where you know, something like J date or Christian mingle, or black people meet where you'd have these communities of people. Uh, that would help you match, mate. And that was really all that he zaps report. They would put you into this chap,

period, but, uh, it was really focused on the match making, finding you the right person. And it wasn't until absolutely bumble came along that they said, You know what? The conversation people actually aren't even making it to that conversation piece. Let's let's stop focusing so much on the matchmaking portion actually focus on the dating portion of the zaps. And so there's this trend shift kind of away from these matchmaking service is like Christian Mingle and and J Day and more towards these dating service is like like Bumble and, like Hinge right that are really focused on past adjust the matchmaking. It's focused on actually helping you down the funnel, all right? And so I think you know, when we start talking about this, this trend shipped and why you're seeing these new dating app ce having success even though 10 already exists,

you know, why is it up like Bumble able to come to market wise an app like him, Kimberly from the market? And it's really understanding that there's this this bundle right? And there's this last bit of the funnel, which is that conversation that's just not being addressed, and it's still kind of broken. And if they can kind of understand that and believe that there's this trend towards the more serious dating abs on and we're fixing that last piece, which is the conversation. There are a lot more, you know, they're a lot more open to it, right? They start to think. Okay, this is something unique enough.

You know, the private equity space. There's been a lot of action in the private equity space with dating apps recently with the Bumble Acquisition or Magic Clouds acquisition back in November, October. Then there was Meat Group was acquired and we had grinder that was just recently acquired. So there's a lot that's happening in the private equity space as well. And so I think, you know, it's definitely starting to come back into conversation. Um, and people are now starting to be a lot more open to kind of be the this new dating app movement that's happening right now.

Yeah, that's awesome. I'm really excited to see how this grows and really white will come from it. I have a feeling that you're the format that you've you know you've pioneered, which is, you know, this event based dating will spawn products that you can't you can't even think of yet because like what the the actions of people on the app they're going to do with They're gonna you know, so many things could happen, which is exciting. I think it's a cool format. And my, um my last question for you before we hop off is, you know, you're doing what many would deem the impossible which is trying to build a dating app. I think you can do it. And all the listeners that you could do it too. So my question for you is how can the forward thinking founders community help you?

Do you even ask for the community? If there's something you're you need help with, how can we help? Um, feel free to make a basket? You won't want one, too.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, I think, um, I'm very focused on product on and really making sure that we're building the best product experience. Ah, and there's a lot that comes to this business that you realize when you're starting a company, um, that that's beyond just the product you're building on. I think one of the biggest learnings I've had, uh, through this whole experience is the importance of relationships on the importance of having support systems of people that you can turn to in situations where you may not know where a certain path leads on. There's a lot of people with breaths with very wide experiences on that have gone through kind of these similar experiences and seem similar things that that I'm going to experience here future. And so I think you know, that connectedness and being able to really connect with other founders Ah,

that air, you know, in your similar stage or in the future stages is really important. Um, and so, you know, I would absolutely love to kind of get connected and and, you know, talk with some of the other founders that or maybe consumer focused and and really hear what they have to say, or at least just start building out some of those connections. I think that that eyes something that you guys have, it's very valuable. I'm this kind of this network of founders that are doing all sorts of different businesses, and so that would probably be my one by one asked.

Yeah, absolutely. At some point, I'm gonna like not I'm not gonna say super soon, but at some point, I'm gonna, like, do something with the fact that I've interviewed now, like over 130 awesome founders doing different stuff. And I don't really I don't I don't know what kind of community I want to do or something like that. They will actually code if I what you just said. But in the short term will definitely connect us some people that I think I think would be good connections, Happy, happy to help there. And just the best of luck. You know, moving forward with this,

and, um, just good luck. I think it's an awesome product. I I think you know, you're cool, founder, and I think the sky's the limit for you. So thanks again for coming on and hope you hope you have a CZ. Much success as you possibly can. Moving forward.

Thank you. And thanks again for having me on the podcast, Matt. Really appreciate it.

Okay. Thank you, everyone, for tuning into that episode. I hope you really enjoyed it. And luckily, there's another one coming up real soon. But before that, I have a couple things to tell you. First, if you're listening to this and you think you're working on something cool or you think you're smart, hit me up on Twitter. I am at Matt Underscore Sherman, and that is Matt with one t. So hit me up, Shoot me a GM, and I'm happy to check out what you're working on and maybe we can get you on the part of.

But at the very least, I'm happy to give you feedback on your product or project or start up. Lastly, if you can please rate this podcast in the iTunes stores, that would be awesome. I'm trying to get up in the rankings and more people discover these awesome founders. And the only way to do that or one of the ways to do that is growing with making. So if you like what you're listening Thio, please just go on to the 18 story, give it five stars, or for you know, or three. I'm not gonna tell you what to give, but just tell whatever I deserve. You should read that with that. I'm signing off. See you next time.