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Okay, On to the show, one of the things that is interesting with electrification is it completely changes performance boundaries that we previously accepted. So are our pick up. I was on the PCH, the pacific coast highway in California. This is maybe three or four weeks ago I pulled up to a light, it was early morning and a brand new Ferrari pulled up right next to me. The guy looks over me, I look over at him and he said, hey, you want to see what we can do here And so we both accelerate quickly off the line and I had accelerated by quite a margin and we get to the next light and he says to me, I can't believe my Ferrari just got roasted, buy a pickup, Welcome to how I built this, a show about innovators,

entrepreneurs, idealists and the stories behind the movements they built, I'm guy raz and on the show today, how RJ Syringe was laughed out of the room when he set out to make an all electric pickup and how that motivated him to build Rivian a truck to push gas guzzling vehicles off the road. Most startup founders are motivated by a purpose, you have to be in order to withstand the volatile ups and downs of building a business. And that purpose is often about introducing a product or service that you believe will have an impact either in your community or industry or in the world at large, and this applies to many of the brands we've profiled on the show for paulina Wexler of Universal Standard. The purpose is to create a more inclusive clothing brand for sam and Maria Callas Joni of Dogfish, Head brewery. The purpose is to bring culinary techniques to the art of beer brewing and for RJ Syringe, the purpose is about building a better car, better for drivers and better for the planet. But the difference between RJ and the vast majority of the brands we've profiled on this show is time scale, it would take more than a decade of research and development before his company, Rivian automotive was able to sell anything.

So this is the story of someone who found a way to merge his idealism with a huge market opportunity. Rivian is trying to solve a very hard problem actually, several hard problems and it's why RJ Syringe has been at it since 2009. That was the year R. J and a group of collaborators started a small car company that would eventually become Rivian. R J. Wanted to build electric cars, but he knew then as he does now that to really make an impact with consumers, you have to make it easy and appealing and for RJ, the way to get there was going to be with electric trucks. Now, even though you may think you see electric Tesla and Kia's everywhere, you look, electric vehicles only make up around 4.5% of all cars on the road in the US and most of those electric cars are sedans, but the top selling vehicles in America aren't sedans, their trucks,

Ford's F Series, Chevy, Silverado and the ram pickup dominate car sales in the US. So to get most people driving electric cars, you really have to win over the truck owners. When RJ got into the car business in 2009, Gm and Chrysler were cratering both companies would be bailed out by the government. This was not an obvious time to get into the industry, but what RJ had and has is patience and a long-term vision. He knew and still knows that to mass produce electric cars in the us and then get consumers to buy them will take time. By the end of 2022, Rivian expects to deliver around 25,000 electric trucks to waiting customers. It's a drop in the bucket when it comes to overall car sales. But within a few years, the company hopes to become the biggest electric truck maker in the world. There are growing pains for sure which you'll hear about supply chain challenges,

costs, manufacturing delays. But given what R. J. And his team have already been through for the past decade, these are just more bumps in the road. R. J. grew up in the 1980s on the space coast in Florida. His dad was also an engineer and an entrepreneur and my dad and I are really close. So we would always talk about the business and he's an engineer's engineer. So he he's the type of personality where he understands how everything works and if something's broken, he attempts to fix it. So that certainly, uh, it was something that I grew up with.

And as a kid, it would, I would get very frustrated if I didn't know how something would work. So I would want to understand how everything worked. And I also always had this view that anything is possible. I mean it really because of my dad, he would look at these complex problems and be like, oh yeah, like that's something we could solve. So he's, he's such an optimist and he's always been so incredibly supportive of me thinking about things that you know now I think back, imagine your six year old son says to, I want to start a company and he's like, yeah, of course you should definitely do that. So even as a six year old,

you already had an idea that of what you wanted to do when you grew up, like you were that focus. Yeah, I mean I knew from my earliest memory, I knew I wanted to be an engineer and it's sort of funny even as a kid, I would be building these little businesses. So I had made these little business cards. I was probably seven or eight years old and I said my name and then I said I polished metal. So I'd go around people's houses in my neighborhood and said, do you need any metal metal polished? And I had a polishing wheel and polishing wax and I would polish metal. So it was always just this perspective of, let me go build something. And I also was deeply enamored with automobiles and just a extreme car enthusiast from, from my earliest memories, it was fortunate to have a really a premier classic air cooled Porsche restoration expert that lived by chance,

close by to me where I was growing up and just a like a neighbor. Yeah, just a neighbor. So I got very involved just through observation and through my neighbor in this case. Uh, taking the time to really explain to me how everything worked. All right. So you were in high school, if I knew you in high school, if I met you in high school, would I have known you as like that's RJ he wants to build things, He's gonna, he's gonna be an engineer. Was it already clear at that point? Yeah. You know,

in the senior description of what I wanted to go do, I said, I'm gonna go start a company and then shortly after high school, I started to figure out what that actually meant in terms of what kind of company and the fact that I wanted to be a car company. Wow. Did you watch like, I don't know, would you watch like those films about like those great sort of captains of industry who started car companies of course. But I, when I say I was a car enthusiast, I'm, I was deeply embedded in just understanding the history of the automobile. And yeah, it was funny when I was growing up, I would say to my parents, I wish I was born in 18 90 because that's,

you know, that was when all the excitement happened in the auto insurance, that's when it was all formed. And What's interesting sitting here today is I'm so glad that I was born in 1983 because I, I do think that the change is going to be larger over the next two decades than what we saw in the first two decades of the auto industry. You know the sort of the shift from a horse to a car as we now think about going from a combustion powered non connected vehicle which is the majority of vehicles on the road today. Two connected electric and increasingly autonomous vehicles. It's a it's a massive shift so totally this is an equally exciting time. Yeah. I mean I mean there's a complete renaissance happening which which obviously is what we're gonna talk about today but I wonder when you I mean you knew you wanted to make cars right from a young age and and you ended up studying engineering. I know at Rensselaer polytechnic in new york. Um and then you you went on to get your your doctorate at M. I. T. Um but I guess I'm wondering you were you were hoping to start a car company, you knew this from the time you were young.

So so why did you think you needed a PhD? The reason for that was really quite simple. I I knew that we would need and I would need a lot of capital to start a business like this. And I felt that if if someone were to invest in a company a car company which admittedly is an extremely high risk proposition that demonstrating some level of intellectual rigor and intellectual capability through a PhD would be helpful in that regard. So I studied and worked really hard. I graduated number one in the school from R. P. I. With a perfect G. P. A, wow, you were single mindedly focused. You you wanted to go to the best graduate school presumably. Yeah, I was very close and in fact signed on to a position at stanford but ultimately switched a few days into that to M.

I. T. And and the reason was I was selecting the grad school based upon what I thought would best position me for for starting rivian, wow, that is unbelievable. You're like a unicorn in that sense because I almost never meet people who were that sort of had that much foresight. You were literally thinking about how M. I. T. Could help you in your quest to start a car company one day. Absolutely, yes. So so at that point this is back in 2005, stanford did not actually have a very strong car program or vehicle program. M. I.

T. S. Was the best in the world, said the Sloan automotive research lab. And uh that lab was supported by an integrated with a number of different auto manufacturers. So they have like a pipeline right to GM and ford and yeah, so you beat with engineers and research staff from, from those respective companies and and be able to dive into their technical challenges. You get a chance to go visit and meet with them and their their R. D. Centers And what I realized is that the likelihood of me being successful starting a car company with with no capital, no team, no technology, no brand, no facilities, no supply chain actually felt the likelihood of me having impact doing that was still higher than the likelihood of me being able to impact the trajectory of a large existing O.

A. M. And the challenges I would say of of holistic or system level innovation. All right. So if I met you in 2005, 2006 when you're when you're doing a graduate degree at M. I. T. And I would've said so RJ people are telling me that you're really interested in starting a car company but at the same time you want to start a business. So you've got to solve a problem and there's a number of problems you can solve you can say well you know the existing american cars isn't compact enough or it's not cool enough or there's no italian designing, you know design schemes in american like we need beautiful american cars or we need faster american cars or what were you what was the problem you want to solve? Was it, was it about fuel efficiency, was it about emissions, was it about design, was it about quality,

price, what the question we were trying to solve and what I was focused on is how do we how do we create a transportation system that will Work in 100 years or in 200 years. And the challenge we have as a society is our current transportation system is it's causing without question. Some of the biggest challenges we face as a society. So everything from almost all of our major cities around the world have severe air quality issues to to a lot of the geopolitical conflicts we have around the world to perhaps most challenging. Not, perhaps I'd say definitely the most challenging is we are fundamentally changing the composition of the atmosphere. That was what was motivating you for sure. It was, it was a central focus and it was, it was the internal combustion engine has got to, we got to figure this out, this is a problem. We have to move to a carbon free system. And so while I was at M I T I was spending a lot of time thinking about what type of card needs to be, what type of products are going to be necessary over the next several years.

And uh, I mean it was pretty wild. The beauty of of a clean sheet is you can think really proudly. So it was, we were thinking about her, I was thinking about everything from pedal powered cars too, diesel electrics to pure electric. But I actually was really sort of intrigued by this idea of a pedal hybrid, like something with what we now see with e bikes but doing that in like a covered format. Yeah, but but where there's an electric motor to sort of help you, but sort of like that with pedals and I realized that as cool and interesting as that might be, the reality is there's not a lot of scale people are not gonna want to buy that. It's interesting cause around this time it may have been around this time 2004, 56 and maybe earlier, I can't remember,

but there was a, there was a documentary, it was called something like how GM killed the electric car or something. And I remember there were a lot of conversations around like GM had this amazing electric car and lots of people loved it and then they just killed it. And there was, there was a conversation around this time 7006, like electric cars really were not viable. Do you remember those conversations? Of course? Yeah, very much so. But you know, for, for myself and I think in academia was there was never a question that electrification is the future. The question was, was solely around what's the path to get there.

Alright, so this was what you're focused on and when you, when you were set to, you know, to, to get your, your PhD and go out into the world, was it clear to you already that you would not go and work for another company from the get go, that literally you get your cap and gown and you would take it off and you would start your own thing. Yes. So the interesting thing though is I didn't talk about it. So I kept this all to myself. You didn't tell anybody in my last year, I should say is as a graduate student, I talked to A few professors about it and Jim womack who's now become a close friend and a great advisor. I was in a class.

He was, he was giving on the future of automotive. This was in 2008 or 2009 and near the end of the class of the semester, I walked up to him and said, Hey, I'm, I'm starting a car company. And he, he sort of looked at me and said, you're crazy. But other than that, I really kept it very much to myself. And then of course we graduated and I started a company that the next day the next day, this was not Rivian, this was the company he founded called mainstream Motors. Yeah,

So I, I, I didn't have a good name. So I incorporated to incorporate something. So I incorporated under a temporary name and I used Mainstream Motors. My dad's company was, that's a sexy name. Yes, that's a really, that's a hot name. You're gonna sell a lot of cars. This is a mainstream motor. Yeah, so that was, that was, I think the name for a couple of months.

I don't remember exactly how long, but very short period of time. And then we came up with what we thought was the actual name, which was a vera, A V E R A and a vera was a portmanteau of a couple of different words. Right? Yeah. We took the word verde and tara. So green and earth and the idea was a green earth. Right, Okay. And I guess the goal, this idea, this company, the goal was to make, um,

like a more fuel efficient sports car, right? Like a, like a hybrid that, that was what you were planning to do. Right? Yeah. Well, in terms of the first product, it was even more crude and simple than that. It was. Let's build the first product that helps us build a brand. The idea was 100 mile per gallon sports car and build a brand around efficiency and sustainability. And then from there continue to develop more and more technology, different products. Um,

And so we started working on that and you say, we, it was you and who else? Well, it was me to start. Yeah. And then hired one or two people in the first six months, but you know, very, very slowly grew the company. We, we did not have a lot of capital. Well, yeah, I mean, this is my question.

This is, I believe you, you started this. You found this in 2009 and anybody remembers 2009 knows that like all the auto manufacturers like the big three there in Washington all the time they were asking not forward, but the others were asking for help to make sure that collapse. And I mean the whole industry was in crisis. Gm Chrysler for sure. And this was not a good time to be thinking about a starting a car company. Be asking investors to invest in a car company when the 22 out of the three big big ones in the US were asking for bailouts. Yeah, it was in some ways the worst possible backdrop one could imagine for raising capital, walking up and down sand hill road and sort of knocking on doors and trying to get meetings. You were trying to do this. Yeah, I'd say very unsuccessfully trying to raise capital in 2009, you were trying to raise money from like,

you know, the sequoias and whatever out there for sure. But the nature of it is, I mean, imagine I had no capital, no product design, no, no technology, no team credential credential at a PhD from M I. T. And so I would basically go into meetings and say, I'm starting a car company and they'd say, well, tell us about your factory, tell us about your team or show us the product and I'd say, well,

we don't have those yet, but we're gonna build them. So it was it was, you know, looking back, it was an incredibly hard pitch, you know, starting a car company, it's different than most technology businesses or traditional venture backed businesses because even the whole venture space is designed around the idea of being able to launch your minimum viable product. Yes, you can launch something quickly. So for for very little capital, you can build your software platform, build your app and show that there's market demand for. And the challenge in starting this is if you're being honest with yourself and therefore honest with investors as you talk about the business, you have to say,

well we have to raise at least a billion dollars if we had all that money right now, it would still take us several years and you want to be the first dollar in. So it's a really, really hard investment. So you have this classic like chicken or egg, you need money to develop technology and product. But if you have no product and technology, how do you get, how do you raise the money? So you have to sort of almost like will it to happen, you have to just start working on the problem and start slowly making progress Well. So I'm curious in 2009 when you're going around asking investors if they want to invest, you, What you want to do is at this point is to build a prototype of a product, which is going to be a fuel efficient sports car. But,

but you needed to do that and you could do that for what? $567 million less than that? Less than that? Well, under a million dollars. Who built the first prototype. And so you raised no outside capital to begin work on the prototype. It was all like family and friends and stuff. Yeah, exactly. In the beginning it was just family and friends, mainly. My dad and I, and I bought a house when I was in high school and my dad refinanced his house and we both put that money into the business. You bought a house in high school from like, what your,

your, your jobs and just like, you just bought like a cheap house then that you rented out. Yeah, yeah. So I, um, the late 90s summers I worked two full time jobs. I worked as a, as a machinist during the day and then I worked in a restaurant uh, in nights and weekends. And my goal was to buy a house. So I saved up enough to buy a house. Yeah. I'm just amazed when I hear about like high school and college kids who are just so focused and then they buy a house and then they rent it out and eventually build wealth, But that's a different story.

Okay, now, here's my question. I'm just thinking, my God, how do you build a hybrid? I mean, how do you build a prototype car that's gonna work like you're in florida, you're in this area where you grew up, it's you and get one or two people with you, How do you physically like where do you start? Like first of all, where do you build the car? Do you do you just like rent a warehouse that you start working in? It's exactly what did we? I rented a warehouse.

It was actually a warehouse I rented from my dad and that was what we worked out of initially and then to make a prototype to figure out how to how to do that. So I started traveling back and forth to Detroit to meet with some of the prototype part fabricators. And as we're going through it. I mean it was very scrappy. So we found people that could make things all over the place where it was in florida where it was in Detroit area that could sort of make some of the parts. I mean, I can't even imagine just all the problems, all the challenges you had to solve for, right to make an engine and then an efficient chassis and suspension powertrain. All I mean, and of course this was not going to be a completed car they were building, it wasn't going to look like a somebody to find an auto showroom, but still like where did it start at that time? We were really focused on how the car be built. So we started with the process to assemble sort of what we think of as like the structure, the aluminum structure.

So I was developing parts, I was designing parts in cad it was 24 7. We never had enough even close to enough money to do anything the right way. So everything was sort of hacked. How did you get like, I mean were you, were you just basically getting things made for you? Yeah, I mean and just shipped to you in parts and you would kind of assemble it in this warehouse. Yeah. And we do some assembly of it depending on the parts, some of those parts that we put together in the Detroit area. But yeah, it was definitely a hand built process. Alright. It took,

I took you guys small team of you, you had about like 12, 13 people working on I think something like that. Just over 10, almost two years to come up with this and you've got some attention, present tension. There's an article in the Orlando Sentinel and I mean it's really cool. You you said at the time That you were hoping that by 2012 you guys could build these in Florida and that you know, you could, they go for about $25,000. Yeah, yeah. This is probably often the case. We thought the task was easier than it actually is. This is not for the faint of heart and I think in those days we had assumed we could do it with less time and less money than was actually realistic. And I often talk to people about this stage.

And in some ways it was helpful that we didn't fully understand how challenging it was because it, the steepness of the climb appeared less scary, so to speak. We didn't, we didn't look at it and fully appreciate how hard it was going to be. And what about the, so I'm looking at a photograph of a team of you around what would become with the eventual car? This uh, vera car, which looks pretty great. It's a, this is a blue car. Looks like a sporty little car. Uh, and so this car did drive it, You did drive it right?

Yeah. It drove in a video. It looks very real, but it was, it was not a, there wasn't a supply chain built around it and there was not a, it wasn't durability tested. It was, it was like a hobby car basically. Yeah, it was a prototype, very crude prototype. And did it, did it go, what did it, was it fuel efficient sort of,

uh, it had a long way to go to get to what the target state was. I'll say that. Yeah, but, but still, I mean, I can imagine, you know, it's kind of cool. I'm looking at a picture of this small team of people around a fully built car, which is kind of a cool achievement. I mean, you did this in under two years and so you were probably excited about the prospect of like florida could be this manufacturing center, you can make cars in florida and maybe you were kind of carried away with this vision, which I think anybody would,

that you could make this happen. I think that's about right. We, we really believed we could make something special, but I would say underneath the surface and of course I can say this now, I wouldn't have said this to the team at the time. I had pretty deep concerns just around the, around whether we were solving the right problem and we're, we're working on the right thing. You know, the kind of thing that you go to bed, lying in bed thinking about should we be building this, is, is this what the world needs to do? We deserve to exist as a company. That was a question I ask myself all the time.

Uh, what gives us the right to exist? I read a quote from one of the engineers who worked on this project, I think now works with the Caribbean who said when the vehicle was done, literally, you guys finished Severa vehicle, great achievement, pop the champagne corks. And you know, you literally said, we're switching, we're switching course here. This is not the right direction at this point, we did bring in a small amount of outside investment. So we had, you know,

investors to, to think about, we had employees and everyone had poured their heart and soul into what we were building and but I I just knew it wasn't the right thing for us and I knew it wasn't solving the right problems. So I said look this we've got a shift and that was the easy part. The hard part was is that we didn't know at that point what we were shifting to when we come back in just a moment how R. J. And his team begin to design a whole new vehicle and why they decide to do it very, very quietly stay with us. I'm guy raz and you're listening to how I built this, learn something new with master class with master class, you can learn from the world's best minds anytime anywhere and at your own pace you can learn how to communicate with purpose from George Stephanopoulos and improve your business leadership skills with bob iger with more than 100 and 50 classes from a range of world class instructors. The thing you've always wanted to do is closer than you think I love to cook. So one of my favorite masterclass courses to recommend is the one taught by the Great Chef Alice Water. She is the pioneer of the Farm to table movement, the founder of shape and niece and she's been a guest on how I built this. Her master class teaches the art of home cooking with amazing insights on selecting seasonal ingredients,

building a home pantry and essential tools for the kitchen. I learned so much from this legend and I think you will do highly recommend you check out master class, get unlimited access to every class and as a, how I built this listener, you get 15% off an annual membership, Go to master class dot com slash built. Right now. That's masterclass dot com slash built for 15% off. Masterclass hiring is challenging, especially right now when you have so much on your plate, luckily there's one place you can go where hiring is simple, fast and smart, a place where growing businesses connect to qualified candidates. That place is zip recruiter dot com slash built zip recruiter does the work for you. Zip recruiter uses its powerful technology to find and match the right candidates up with your job. You can easily review these recommended candidates and invite your top choices to apply.

Zip recruiter is so effective that four out of five employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And right now to try zip recruiter for free. Our listeners can go to zip recruiter dot com slash built that zip recruiter dot com slash B U I L T zip recruiter dot com slash built zip recruiter. The smartest way to hire. Hey welcome back to how I built this. I'm guy raz. So it's 2013 and RJ is in pivot mode. He's already built a prototype of a fuel efficient sports car. But now he decides that to really make an impact. He needs to make a vehicle that's fully electric two vehicles. In fact an suv, Which was sort of the craziest thing back in like 2013 to even talk about electrifying, you can imagine if, if people thought I was crazy to start a car company when I said, I want to make electric pickups and this is 2013, it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say would get laughed out of the room.

But we said, this is actually a really good thing. If people are laughing us out of the room, we need to, we have an opportunity to demonstrate that this is a segment that it's, it's the least efficient vehicles on the road. It's among the most profitable segments. So it's, it's the type of vehicle that actually the world needs to see. There's demand for electric and the world needs to see that it's possible to electrify. Alright. When you realize that you want to, you need to switch direction, you knew that it was going to be all electric. I remember test driving a Tesla Roadster. I did a story about it back then and it was a sports car,

electric sports car and it was really cool. So you could have said, hey, you know, let's let's focus on electric sports cars or you could have said, let's focus on electric sedans or let's focus on an electric family car. So there were, There were different directions you could go in. Did you think about about maybe going in that direction? Oh, of course. Um, but Tesla launched its Roadster in like the 2006, timeframe and the thought of going out and building what Tesla had already done, You know, 10 years later,

just, it felt like that wasn't a problem that the world needed worked on. But how did you land on this idea of making a pickup truck? What were the factors that got you to that point? What were the things you were, you realized about this particular kind of car? Obviously it's a very popular segment, but we also saw it was, it's a segment that perhaps more than any other has been characterized by compromises. So a truck drives like a truck, it can be capable and robust, but it's not gonna ride as smooth as a, as a car. A truck is going to be inefficient. A truck is not going to have a lot of trunk space, like a truck cannot be sporty and all these,

like really wonderful, wonderfully interesting opportunities to, to demonstrate how technology can eliminate a compromise. And so when we thought about the role of technology and the role of driving electrification, we said we need to not just make a truck that's electric, it needs to be something that's totally different and turns things that are today weaknesses into strengths. Yeah. But but were you, I mean put put on your business hat for a second, not the engineering hat. Did you see an market opportunity and focusing on SUVs and trucks? Because this is still the biggest, I think the biggest segment of cars sold in the U. S. SUVs and trucks, did you realize that and say wait,

we should really go in that direction. Oh I mean we were, you know very much analyzing the different segments. You can go into analyzing the size of the segments, the efficiency of those segments. But what um was incredibly clarifying as we thought about what to do was we knew the right question to answer and it was a single question and the question was whatever we do, it needs to have the most positive impact and that even if the company wasn't successful, if we were working on problems that were big enough and hard enough, that inspired competition that inspired existing O E. M. S to change the way they looked at things that would be a success from the measure of reducing the amount of carbon emitted into the world. So I mean this is one of my in the moment, most perplexing and challenging times. But looking back, it was actually one of my favorite times in Caribbeans history because it was so freeing to say we're trying to solve for impact. Now let's go iterate through lots of different concepts and ideas and strategies that can do that.

And you know, the freedom we had at that point was so unique, we could pivot wildly like on Monday we think we're doing this and by Wednesday were 180° different from that thinking and and so the fluidity of of concepts that we wanted to focus on was just I mean it was extraordinary, it was awesome. All right, so you know that the future is electric and and and you're going to be building trucks and SUVs and then I guess in like 2013 you guys decide to relocate to michigan just outside of Detroit and and it means it's for obvious reasons, right? The whole sort of U. S. Automotive industry is based in the upper midwest. Um but and just out of curiosity at this point what the company is like 10 or 12 of you guys? Yeah, all I guess it was probably about around 12 people, half of us all moved into a single house in a place called Epsilon E. But yeah, it was,

I mean it was a very interesting time, my now wife, we were dating at the time and she moved with us and none of us had any money. The company had no money of course, so we were really running lean and hard to try to come up with and scale some of these ideas that we were thinking about. Alright, let's break down some of the things that you had to do. First of all, you changed the name from a vera to Rivian. What was the name change about? Why'd you do that? Because it was a pretty good name. It's a pretty good name. We um uh, this must have been 2010. We were sued by Hyundai so handy,

had a product at the time called the Azera A Z E R A. And they were concerned that the name was too similar to our names. So they, they basically said you need to change your name and we said, okay, we're not gonna fight Hyundai and and use the very small number of dollars, we have to fight over a name that very, very few people around the world had ever even heard of. So we had lots and lots of different sessions and ultimately arrived at Rivian, which I'm so glad all that happened because I can't imagine the company with a different name. It's um, I love the name, it's uh, something that just works so well, where's the name come from? So I grew up on the indian river in florida,

which is not actually a river, it's the ocean, right? Yeah, it's essentially it's part of the Intercoastal Waterway. So it's a it's a path for large ships to move if there's large storms that come in, you know, they come inland through this waterway. But anyway, so so we took the first three letters of the word river Ri V. And the last three letters of the word indian I. N. And merge those two together in Caribbean. And um, we wanted something that was phonetically easy to say. We loved the basis of it coming from the word river.

It sounds like a word that's flowing and moving. We wanted something that didn't mean anything in any language around the world which this this satisfies. So for a bunch of engineers, uh, thinking about how to name a car company, that was that was what we came up with. All right, so you're in michigan and in Ypsilanti nas group house and you know that you're going to focus on making SUVs and trucks electric man, I just cannot imagine what a daunting task you have ahead of you. You've got to make a battery, you gotta make an engine, you've got to design the car. You've gotta, I mean every and then down the road you gotta figure out how to mass produce it and then you've got to find a factory and then a supply chain. Forget about all that stuff. First of all,

just even do these things that I'm talking about. You need lots of money. So was it, I mean now that you had had the prototype of that sports car. You know, now that that you proved the concept even though you weren't doing that anymore was it was a little bit easier to attract capital in a way. It was um we were able to show as a very small team highly under capitalized that, you know, that we could build something and so if the risk was extremely high before that it was now very, very high. So it yeah, it allowed us to start having different types of discussions with investors. But I think the other thing you have to remember at this time is it wasn't at all clear that electrification was going to happen yet. And so that was, that was something we also had to overcome was to convince To convince people that there was actually going to be a big market for electrified products. And now of course it's a very different world.

It's, it's universally accepted that 100% of of the world's vehicle production in the very near future will be electric. So, but that wasn't the case 7, 8 years ago. So alright, you had to raise money just to get this started and I know you got and how much money did you I mean even just to get to, I don't know, it's just start, I can't imagine how much money you needed, Did you start with a small amount or with 50 or 100 million? No, no, no, I wish we started with that. So the way the way it played out as we,

as we were pivoting into this into this new space, I sort of zoomed out and said, we're really far away from raising the amount of capital we need. Again if you're being honest with yourself, you know you look in the bank and it has you know more than a million dollars if you're like oh this is great and then you're like but wait a second we need more than a billion dollars to actually ramp. So I started thinking about well how do I meet the people or the person that's gonna help take this to the next level? And ultimately the approach that that actually worked the best was I went back to M. I. T. And I met with some of the senior leaders there who I who I had and I still have a great relationship with and I said I need some help. I've I've started this company, we need a lot of capital and I need to connect with people that might be able to help me in that way. And and that turned out to be really smart approach because I guess you wind up getting in touch with an M. I. T. Alum,

a guy named Mohammed Jamil right? I think he's the ceo of of a company called Abdul latif Jameel. It's a huge family owned corporation from Saudi Arabia. Um and I think a big part of their businesses is an automotive and and so what you pitched him on on Rivian. Yeah I remember I went out and met with him and uh it was just a great meeting because we ended up having a conversation around the future of transportation and at the end of it, I had a hunch that they would be willing to support us and ultimately that played out. So it wasn't as if they walked in and said, RJ, here's $50 million. It was, they walked in and said, here's a very small amount of money, let's see what you can do and let's build a business plan. And that once that was completed, they said, okay,

this makes sense. Now let's build a more sophisticated prototype, built that, okay, that, that seems to be working, Let's engage with more suppliers and we would then add to that more capital? But it was like less than $1 million $1 million $5 million $10 million. So it was a very gradual growth because the risks were so high. Um, here's, here's what I'm learning about, you are the main engineer, it's your company, but now you're spending most of your time trying to raise money. And I mean given that you love the engineering side,

every single founder, I've talked to you with some exceptions, they just raising money sides of grind, They really don't like that part. How did you feel about having to really focus on that side of the business. I really have always thought of my job as my role needs to be constantly looking for what's the most important problem to solve with the company. And at that period of time it was very important that we solved uh solved how we were going to capitalize the business. I mean that was that was existential, the money issue. That was the issue. Yeah. Without without money, there is no company. So it's sort of like it'd be nice to just work on the vehicles and but you can't but you can't. Yeah, because this is not a cookie company,

you are not buying chocolate chips and flour and sugar. You're trying to build an electric car. You cannot do, you can't even start until you have the money. Yeah. And that's you know, one of the hardest things, not, not necessarily raising capital, that was hard. You're being told no way more often than you're being told. Yes. You know the ratio is crazy. You're probably getting 150 knows for maybe one partial maybe. Yes, but that was fine.

I knew that going in the hardest part was maintaining the morale of the team. You know, I would, I knew all these folks really well. I knew their their families well, I knew, I knew the names of the kids and sort of knowing that their livelihood, the livelihood of their families is dependent on us being successful but also knowing that I needed to keep their state of mind focused on solving technical problems and not stressing about the fact that we have a half a week of cash and we haven't paid any of our suppliers in two months. And it's a very emotionally challenging state. I'm curious because around 2012 and you start raising this money, you did something. And this is interesting because there's as you, as you know, I think, and I hope our listeners know, we do a lot of research for every interview.

Very deep research. But there is a significant gap in our research between 2012 and let's say 2017 because you, you very intentionally went into stealth mode. You decided we're going to just not talk about what we're doing. We're not going to publicize it. We're not going to go to the media, we're not gonna. And was that connected to what you have done in florida where you actually did talk to the media and you said, hey, we've got this awesome car. We're going to make them in florida. Did that inform this, this strategy of just going into stealth mode and not talking about it at all. Yeah, absolutely. When I first started,

we had targets and as you would expect, the targets were not realistic. And you can find things where we said, we're going to launch this thing by 2012 or 2013 and I realized that the number of unknowns was so significant as we were beginning this sort of second part of this new part of the journey, that it would just be silly to talk at all about what we're doing externally. I mean, we didn't even have a website at this point, we just went completely dark and it was actually really helpful because it it avoided us getting overly married to any specific aspect of the strategy or any specific aspect of our timeline. And it also created its own challenges. Recruiting was a challenge because people would joke with me. So I'm gonna go home and tell my spouse I'm gonna join this company that doesn't have a website that doesn't appear to have a lot of money and intends to launch vehicles sometime in the future. I was like, yeah, some version of that. Yes, so it was it was challenging to say the least.

Um Alright, so let's sort of dive into this stealth mode period. Right? I'm trying to because this is like a good sort of 454 year period in stealth mode. So can you tell me what, what's happening? Yeah, so we built our first truck, what would look like to most people? A production ready truck by the end of 2013. Okay, so you so similar kind of which, what you have done florida, you rented a warehouse and you were actually building a prototype. We were building a prototype. This was it was completed in 2 13,

beginning of 14 and we called this P one and it was a pickup truck that you're building. It was a pickup. Yeah, like a flatbed pickup. Well not a flatbed, more like a little it was a little two seat pickup. So it's a very small pickup. And we realized That that conceptually wasn't right. We didn't really get the branding on it, right? And we were trying to make it really low cost. So we built another version which we called alpha and this was looked like it was from a 1960s science fiction movie where it was like looked futuristic but looked like it was trying to look futuristic, if that makes sense. And then we iterated again. And really by that point had started to deeply understand the brand. We were trying to build in terms of both enabling and inspiring adventure.

But this idea of like, you know, a product designed to take kids to the beach and families, mountain biking and that kind of thing. But each of those iterations, you can imagine spooled up like there was clay models and there were teams of people doing research and we would build not just the vehicle, but then mules or like test vehicles to test the components on the vehicle. So these big iterations were at the end of each one we said this isn't it? This isn't right. We don't have it yet. Alright as you're in stealth mode, which I I wish I had some cameras in there because I think it would be really interesting to me. I should have taken more pictures. You probably you were nervous because you were you know, you made that but was at any point during that time, did you think you know,

this might not work out? I mean because I'm thinking like 80 90% chance is not gonna work out? Oh I think much, much higher than that, I would say 98% unlikely. Did you think it was gonna work? Did you think that the 2% was on your side? I didn't think about that a lot. I mean it was something I thought about at least every week, but I didn't allow myself to go there. It's a, you know, because you can quickly start to get into the realm of what's Plan B and what's plan C. And if we can't raise money, how do we take some of the things we developed and turn those into smaller businesses and like all that. But it's really it's really distracting to focus on failing,

you know, to focus on how this is gonna go wrong and if it goes wrong, how you make it less bad for everybody and like in some of the darkest moments you would be the page of ideas on what we could turn the company into if it doesn't work, but I never found those to be particularly useful because they didn't drive actions. I wasn't gonna go work on plan the moment. You start working on Plan B or plan C, the likely to plan a working goes to 0%. How did you land on this idea of adventure of branding this product as adventure? Because you know the F 1 50 I think of Home Depot, I go to Home Depot and there's like that part of the parking lot near the lumber area, it's like all big, you know, trucks dodge for, you know, I'm thinking contractors right? So that could have been a focus or like,

you know, the sort of rural, you know, kind of independent minded american, wide open spaces, you know, um self sufficient, that kind of image we have of like a big truck with like american flag or something behind it. Like that's a huge market. This idea of adventure is really a deeper reflection of what we think about when we think about what is humanity. Humans are innately curious and so that curiosity leads to us as consumers wanting to accumulate new experiences. So, we actually, we had a few objectives. We were designing the vehicle in the form you see today, we said number one,

we actually don't want this to be something that's heavily cross shopped with existing trucks, meaning we actually want to be drawing in customers that are coming out of everything, not just trucks or SUVs, but pastor cars, sports cars, coupes hatchbacks and what's amazing is we now have the data to show it and it's exactly that. So People who previously owned a pickup truck represent just over 10% of our customers, meaning 90% have never owned a pickup before, which is awesome. And then the second objective we had as we, and this is one that I was even more focused on is we were trying to target customers that were not electric vehicle customers, meaning it doesn't have impact if we're just moving a customer from a tesla into a Rivian. We want to be moving a customer from a combustion powered vehicles Rivian. And again, we now have data on this where less than 20% of our customers have owned TVs, before meaning more than 80% have never owned a TV as you were sort of making progress on building these prototypes.

You must have gotten to a point where you're confident that you could really now produce these and you were raising money, started to look for a plant to actually build these cars. Um, and one became available as an old Mitsubishi plant in Illinois And you guys had, you bought it, you were able to buy it. Um, but that meant, I think you paid $16 million, but then you'd have to put a lot more money into getting it ready to be an electric car plant. But that meant that you were doubling down like now, 2016, 20, early 2017, when you buy this plant, essentially saying,

we're gonna make this, oh yeah, I mean, in the automotive space, there's been a lot of new companies over the last 50 years. And one of the biggest challenges is to go from the concept of the prototype to mass manufacturing. And that step causes one to think about what are all the ways you can get there. Can we use a contract manufacturer? Can we, do we build a Greenfield site? Do we find an existing site? So, we were looking at every possible combination. You were thinking probably, maybe we could partner with Volkswagen or ford or GM, I think GM at one point even wanted to partner with you.

Yes, we're looking at all different types of things and ultimately arrived on this idea of, let's buy, uh, find a facility that is in place that we can buy and repurpose and In the world of used automotive plants, there's not, it's not an overly liquid market, there's not a lot of used plants that are in the Bible condition. This is a unique setup that this, this plant we purchased, started production in 1989. So, it's a relatively new plant and very good access to the supply chain. And so we ultimately, as you said, we bought it for $16 million,

which was just an incredible deal close in the beginning of 2017. Now, we didn't have at that point the money to actually turn it into a plant for ourselves. So we sort of bought it and then said, okay, now we gotta secure all the capital to convert this into a Rivian plant. So here's, here's, I'm wondering, I mean, that's a huge step buying that plant and it's in 2017 and it's gonna take some time before you can at that point manufacture there at this point, Tesla is really starting to make an impact, still struggling at that point, right? But it is making an impact. Certainly in California,

people are starting to drive it and it's getting vehicles are getting good reviews. I mean, did you see that, did that make you anxious? Like, Oh God, there's just so much more far ahead of us or did you see that as like, oh, this is great. They're, they're just helping us build this market. We, we definitely looked at, it is great for the industry, great for electrification. I think today there's around 1.5 billion cars on the planet.

And even today, this is now, you know, relative to 2017 2018, this is a lot further along. But of those 1.5 billion cars, Less than 2% of those are electric. So we are so early, were unimaginably early in this transition. And so the fact that Tesla was out earlier than us and building what I think of as a very strong brand. We saw that as a good thing, but the world needs more than just Tesla to convert those 1.5 billion cars to electric and to completely remap the industry. So we, I think the world often believes that we would be rooting against them or something like that. That it's just not the truth. We,

I think their successes is good for the world. I think it's it's good for the space. We've we've designed products and a brand that feel and look very different than theirs. So their success and our success collectively help each other. Alright, so you've got this factory and you know, at this point, I mean, I have to imagine it got a little bit easier, may be a lot easier for you to, to start to raise significant capital in part because the economy was getting better venture funds flush with cash. Did it become, I mean, and you're talking about billions of dollars you have to raise not not a few million. Did did that start to, when did you feel like it started to become easier?

You didn't have to make the case as aggressively. It became easier, but not, it was not a, There's no binary step. Um, the core decision we had, this was back in like 2017 was when, and how do we come out of stealth? Because being in stealth at that point it went from a, I would call it like an asset. It was helpful that we were in stealth to becoming actually a painful liability where you needed awareness. We needed awareness. And so whether it's investors or suppliers or recruiting, it just became really problematic. And so we took the decision to say let's come out of stealth and we decided to show the the R.

One T and the R. One S that's our truck and our suv at the L. A. Auto show at the end of 2018. So you said in 2017, he said at the end of 2018 we're going to go to the one of the biggest auto shows in the world, the L. A. Auto show and we're gonna debut our pickup truck in our suv. Exactly. So we built some very solid technologies, some solid platforms. We were engaged in a variety of different strategic discussions with big partners. So we went into the L. A. Auto show and we we had already built a very deep relationship with with amazon.

We hadn't yet announced our deal with them but we knew it was coming. Amazon would eventually invest $700 million in Rivian and also order 100,000 trucks. Yeah, so amazon is now our largest shareholder. They invested a lot through multiple rounds. But but when we showed the vehicle L. A. We hadn't yet announced them as an investor. Now we knew that that was going to happen but it was actually really helpful going into the L. A. Auto show with a level of confidence around what we knew but the world didn't know was gonna come over the coming six months in terms of partnership announcements and investment and that was, you know, that was sort of the moment when we went from a company with no website, no background to a company that was out of stealth. And essentially from that point forward, we were then very much followed publicly and we knew that that would happen.

Yeah, you were at the L. A. Auto show I'm assuming. Yeah, tell me what the atmosphere was like, what was there were lines of people to come to that? I know I got a lot of attention. It was, it was fun in the sense that people were like, who is this company? Where the heck did you come from when we come back in just a moment how RJ's plans to get Rivian up to speed, gets snarled up in the supply chain, stay with us. I'm guy raz and you're listening to how I built this Ever waited for a sign or someone else to buy you a piece of jewelry most people have, which is why I'm a jury was founded in 2015.

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a pickup truck and an suv at the L. A. Auto show. And because Rivian has been operating in stealth mode for like five years, it kind of seems like they've come out of nowhere and we explain, well, we have a team of about 600 people and they're like, well, where did the 600 person team come from? And, and so I think that was, that was what surprised the world. And it was, it wasn't as if like we thought of this concept a year ago, it had gone through so many iterations, but that was the overall tone in L.

A. It was just like curiosity around the origin curiosity around, you know, what's next, those kinds of things. All right. So you, you make this big splash at the auto show in in 2018 and I want to, I want to fast forward here just for a moment because it's, it's gonna take you a while right to get these vehicles built for actual customers. But you start to get orders like thousands and then tens of thousands of pre orders from people who want to buy a Rivian. And and then finally I think something like three years later, 2021 the first electric pickups roll off the line. Yeah, I mean it's it's funny guy even talking about here, it's,

it's hard to believe it was years of time iterating and and grinding away without enough capital. But some of those constraints led to some of the best innovations like the decisions to build electronics and software in house where both strategic but also practical, we couldn't get suppliers to work with us. So we, we built with the benefit of time, a lot of capability. The scale of challenges can sometimes be overwhelming. But being calm is actually a really important aspect of solving problems because you think more clearly and you know, there's a storm of activity and a storm of challenges. Being able to make the right decisions as to how to navigate that, whether it's a supply chain challenge or a ramp up challenge. Um, you know, these are all solvable items, but they sometimes take a lot of effort, They take the right team,

They take coordination within the team, but I'm incredibly confident in our ability to go solve all this. You know, we had a recent episode of this show with max Levchin, the the co founder of Paypal and and the founder of a firm and that's exactly what motivates him solving hard problems. That's what gets him out of bed, right? And when I was talking to him, I was thinking how hard the problems he's working on, you know how hard they are to solve. But I talked to you and I'm like, this is like at a stratospherically different level because here we are and where we're talking about your company that is now public, it's worth 30 $40 billion. But whatever the market cap is today, you know, the stock market's been a little nutty,

but you even with, with this amazing rise, this like overnight success story, that's, I don't know, 13 years in the making, right? So really, You still have massive challenges ahead of you, for example, just making enough cars. I mean, you've got tons of people who are excited about these vehicles have put down deposits have ordered them. You were hoping to deliver between 20 and 40,000 a year in 2021. That hasn't happened. I'm not trying to criticize you for that.

I'm just saying it's an enormous challenge. So walk me through why it's so challenging to make 20 or 30 or 40,000 cars a year. Yeah, sure. When you look at a vehicle, take our truck are won T what we build our plant, we're assembling roughly 2000 different components or subassemblies That come from around 400 different suppliers. So some of the components we make ourselves, we make our battery pack, we build our battery modules, we build all the stand panels we build in house, but there are other things we don't make. So semiconductors are not made in our plant, tires are not made in our plant, headlights are not made in our plant. So those 400 suppliers make a lot of the components that come in and that supply chain to get that spooled up is not just those suppliers They have suppliers to them.

And those suppliers in turn have suppliers. So pick a simple part that we buy like a headlight. That part has over 100 individual components that are in it. Just the, just the light, just the projector. So if you look at the number of discrete components in the car, like individual mechanical components, there's around 25,000 components and any single one of those could disrupt the production. So it's made this difficult for us is we're not just launching one vehicle, we're launching four at the same time. We have our truck, the R N T R S. U V R R one S. Uh, and then we have a commercial van.

Uh, there's two different sizes of the van for you, which we really haven't talked about the commercial side of the business, but that's another whole side of what we're building fleet vehicles, like basically commercial transport vehicles for huge companies for goods. Yeah, goods. But where we've had challenges is the supply chain has been in a very weakened state given the combination of the pandemic and then the really the unexpected constraints that have happened in the last 1.5 years with semiconductors and what I think is often not fully appreciated is turning a supply chain on Is not like a light switch. Each one of those suppliers has to ramp. So it's it's a very, very complex orchestra. But the good news is it's it is now ramping. We, as of our last earnings call, we built over 5000 vehicles that is now ramping. So we are seeing the light,

so to speak, at the end of the tunnel. But it has been a, it's been a challenging ramp up over the last six months at full capacity. How many trucks and SUVs can the plant produce a year in in normal Illinois? So the plant has a capacity of 100 and 50,000 units a year a year. The, the challenge we have to come back to the supply chain point is we're not able to use the plant fully. So the plant, the lines are running it essentially 25 to 30 hours a week because we don't have enough parts. So, you know, a good automotive plant is running 100 and 10 to 120 hours. Workable hours a week, should only be using 30 hours out of 100 and 68. It's really painful.

You have, I think about more than 80,000 people who put deposits down on a car, which is awesome. But I guess some of them are gonna have to wait maybe two years before they see their car. Yeah, that's right. It's really frustrating when, if you have to wait two years to get the vehicle, it's, it is just challenging. Yeah, Yeah. But that will take the next, we think the next year to fully ramp capacity. Yeah, I mean,

and sometimes listeners accused me of stressing founders out and I'm not, I don't mean to do that because you've had a lot of stress over the years, but you got to deliver 100,000 vans to amazon by the end of this decade. That just be a little stressed out about that. I'm excited about it. It's uh, if I were to look at the risk of rivian success today versus the risk a year ago versus the risk five years ago, I would say at this moment, this is the lowest risk we've ever had in terms of success. We have $17 billion in cash. We have incredible demand on the consumer products. We have amazing partnership with amazon and we have a plant that's now producing faster than our supply chain can keep up. But the plant is running right. Like the number of things left to solve is, is much smaller than it was a year ago. Let's,

let's talk about Tesla. Um, they are still sort of the biggest player and sort of most developed electric car manufacturer in terms of their network of chargers and the technology and the driverless technology. But they are also um, uh, they can be litigious and they have, I mean they've directed lawsuits against you guys against other another E. V. Company for technology infringement and so on. Um, so this is something that you have to deal with there is you are being sued by them. They contend that you that you hired the way their employees and got some intellectual property there. So are those lawsuits that actually affect your ability to do what you do or are they just distraction that you don't really worry about? It's not something I spend a lot of time worried about it. We say we've we've got about 13,000 employees. Um,

a lot of our employees formerly worked at Tesla, so probably like 5, 600. so that, that inherently I think caused some frustration at Tesla. So they of course, uh, filed the lawsuit because of it. But, but we're very confident in our position there. And I'd also just say that I think that's that's just an artifact of some of the talent battles that technology companies have to deal with you. You see the same between google and facebook and yeah, you see it all the time, You see this kind of thing all the time and it's, it is probably one of the biggest challenges of building a, a company around technology is just competing for the best talent to go develop that technology.

Um, When you think about most people are driving gas and buying gas-powered cars and I think there's like 250 million cars on the road in the United States alone and 98, of them are powered by gasoline. Just kind of thinking about the math there. It's gonna be a while before it's all electric on, on the roads of the US. Yeah, it will be um, new car sales today are a teeny fraction of, of total vehicle sales. So first we have to get The world to 100% of new car sales being electric. And even if we were to do that at the flick of a switch right now, it would still take us the next, you know, 10 to 15 years to replace the full global car park. So call in the next 15 to 20 years we'll see the fleet of vehicles in the world Essentially shift almost entirely towards electric.

But you know, within I'd say 25 years, it would be fairly rare to see a gasoline powered car on the road. It would be like seeing an antique and the role that we play there is an important one we believe and you are a vegan, you don't eat any animal products and even the car is vegan, it's a vegan leather and and you don't really, it's not really kind of pushed to too much. And because some people that that C is seen as a, I think it's crazy, but some people think that, see that as a political stance, not just a personal health stance or you know, wanting to help the environment out. So do you intentionally not kind of push that side of the car? We don't make a huge deal out of it. We could choose to like make a big deal about the headliners made from recycled soda bottles,

those kind of things. But but ultimately there shouldn't be the reason you buy the vehicle. The vehicle should just be fundamentally better. And like we feel it's just like responsible of us to to make decisions that are lower carbon and and utilize materials more efficiently. I do think your point though, on unfortunately sustainability becoming somehow politicized for reasons I have no idea why, but it's become unfortunately bit of a political topic, We just don't view it like that. So we try really hard to not make rivian politicized or the idea of sustainability politicized. So that's that's also part of how we present the vehicle because you're not, you don't want to make a car for Blue state Blue state America right? And I think from what I've read, most electric car owners tend to be politically left of center, which is unfortunate because in order to make it sustainable, everybody's gonna want to buy these, everybody want to appeal to everybody want,

you want everyone from the most conservative and most liberal people, not even thinking about their politics, they buy a car that just by a great car, is there a way to, you know, and it may be ford's F 1 50 electric vehicle that does it right? That kind of opens the floodgates and actually opens the market for everyone as we, as we go to electrify, I think we're going to have the need for lots of choice and the driving experience helps get people excited. I mean one of the things that is interesting with electrification is it completely changes performance boundaries that we previously accepted. So our, our pickup is faster than most hyper cars. I was, I was on the PCH, the pacific coast highway in California, this is maybe three or four weeks ago I pulled up to a light,

it was early morning and the brand new Ferrari pulled up right next to me. The guy looks over me, I look over at him and said, hey, you want to see what we can do here. And so we both accelerate quickly off the line and I out accelerated by quite a margin and we get to the next light and he says to me, I can't believe my Ferrari just got roasted smoked by a pickup. Right? And so I think that's like that. Reframing of electrification is also gonna help help in a big way where people are going to be excited about the products regardless of whether they're buying it for sustainability reasons or not. They're just fundamentally more exciting, more desirable to drive products when you think about this path that you've taken. Right. Pretty amazing. I mean you've got this facility and all these employees, 13,000 people and these two products that people love and want more of,

you can't make them fast enough, you know, multi billion in the tens of billions of dollars in value. This company is now valued at. Um, and I know you're still far away from being able to breathe, but how much of where you are today do you attribute to just the grind that you put in and how much of it do you think has to do with luck? I think they're equal parts, I don't know. Some days I might say, uh more luck and some days I might say less luck. I mean I think every situation creates opportunities to learn. So if you ask me do, I wish we were launching into a different environment that didn't have semiconductor shortages and a pandemic and with the supply chain challenge you could say boy this is pretty unlucky but it also is creating skills and organizational knowledge around how to operate in these extreme circumstances. It's, that's really great.

But then we've also had really fortunate connections with investors and connections with the right people in terms of the team that we built. But those days that are really lucky in those days that maybe seeming really unlucky, all of it benefits from working and grinding away really hard. Um, when do you know, when do you know you'll be successful? When, when do you know that? You can say, okay, we made it, are you there now? I don't really, um, think that will ever be the case. It's sort of the journey that you hope never ends.

Um, so have we launched a vehicle? Yes. Do we have excited customers? Yes. Have we raised a lot of capital? Yes. Are we profitable? No. Uh, would we achieve profitability? Would I say we've made it? I would say no, continue to be pushing. But if I were to say, have we made an impact?

I would say with absolute confidence. Yes, that's R. J. Sky Orange founder and Ceo of Rivian, by the way, Rivian loves to tout all the bells and whistles on its pickup, including a hidden cubby behind the rear seats that can accommodate a foldout portable camp kitchen, complete with stove sink pots and pans, coffee maker and grinder. And if you don't want the kitchen, the space is also big enough to fit a fully grown, stretched out human being. Should you ever have a need for that? Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week.

If you enjoy our show and want to show your support, can you help me out and spread the word? Maybe tell a friend about how I built this or send out a message on social media if you want to contact the team. Our email address is H I B T at I D 0.13 dot com. If you want to follow us on twitter, our account is at how I built this and mine is at Guy raz and on instagram we're at how I built this and I'm at Guy dot Roz. This episode was produced by Alex chung with music composed by Rammstein Arab louis. It was edited by neva grant with research help from sam Paulson and technical assistance from robert Rodriguez. Our production staff also includes J. C. Howard Casey Herman Liz, Metzger, Carrie, Thompson, Kathryn cipher, Elaine coats,

john Isabella chris Mancini and Carla estevez. I'm Guy raz and you've been listening to how I built this. Hey everyone. So I wanted to make sure you knew of all the different ways you can listen to how I built this. The show is always free and available wherever you listen to podcasts, whether it's amazon music, Apple podcasts or wherever you're listening right now. But if you want to listen to the next episode of how I built this today one week early, you can do that on amazon music or you can listen to it early and ad free by subscribing to one theory plus in apple podcasts or on the wondering app. So please do follow us on your podcast app. So you always have the latest episode downloaded and get your, how I built this merch and gear at wondering shop dot com. Another way to support the show is by filling out a survey at one dory dot com slash survey and thanks hey everyone, it's me and I've got a really exciting announcement. I have a brand new podcast. It's called the great creators.

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