Hey, welcome back to the hustle podcast. Today we're gonna talk to Charlie. Wait. A new friend of mine, an awesome designer on the West Coast who is currently a design manager at GoPro. About what it takes to design an effective team and what it takes to balance your life between managing that team, your career being a designer and everything else that life demands. Charlie has been doing some awesome work on the go pro team. I don't know if you guys noticed or not, but there's a new hero. Five new karma drone that they released in a sweetest software. That's just tight. Today. We're gonna learn a little bit about Charlie. What makes him tick? What inspires him. And I hope you guys enjoy it. Here's Charlie. What's up, Charlie?

How's it going?

Going Good. Going good. Just wanted down a week. What about yourself?

Same here and ready for the weekend. I'm excited. It's Friday.

What do you do on the weekends?

Oh, man. Um, what don't we d'oh! On the weekends? I have Ah, I've got three kids. So it's, um it's a little crazy. Between birthday parties and soccer games and carpools. Try to mix in a little surfing. Ah, little downtime with the wife and, um, yeah, just kind of hanging out and kind of recharging for the week.

Awesome. Why don't you tell everybody a little bit about yourself?

Yeah. So I am a design manager at GoPro. Um, I'm also a father, um, professional husband, surfer, former baseball player. Um, uber driver for my kids. All those good things.

How did you make the transition from professional sports to design?

Yeah, that's Ah, it's an interesting path. Um, you know, a from an early early age. You know, baseball was my first love. It's the only thing I ever wanted to D'oh. Um, my dad, it's kind of funny. My dad would take me down to the beach and one try to get me into surfing, and I would just be like, No, let's just stay on the beach and play catch. And you'd freak out because the waves were good.

And he's like, I don't know, Let's let's go surf. Um, so just like it consumed every second I was awake. Um, but also have this other side of me that was kind of creative. I love to draw on doodle and, um, you know, even from an early age, like redesigning, like sports logos and stuff I always had that my grandfather was a really good artist and, um, spent a lot of time with him and kind of kind of picked up on that, Um,

but yeah, baseball was really my passion. It was It was what I focused on, um, pretty much the majority of my life and ended up going to college for baseball. And, you know, I jokingly tell people I majored in baseball, minored and partying and dabbled in school. Um, because that was around in my focus. I really I was just baseball 100%. Um, but like all good things that sometimes they come to an end and kind of had to figure out what I was gonna do And luckily, somehow got into design and art school along the way. Probably because it just freed me up to focus on baseball.

Um, And when I was done with my professional career, I just said, All right, let's try to make a make a run at this and thank God for the Internet.

That's cool. I also had a common love. Love for baseball is a young kid, too. I mean, that's all I did growing up, and that's all I wanted to do professionally. But when it I was really good at it, too. But when it came to high school, I think I had the opposite thing happened. I just wanted to skateboard and, like, slack off. I don't want to practice, but I often wonder Wonder what would have happened if I had stuck with it.

Yeah, it's tough, man. You know, having kids and now and just watching, like the pressure that they get put on to be, like, solely focused on these one things. Um, it's it's kind of gnarly, like I was very fortunate, and and my dad never, you know, pushed me too hard into baseball or practicing. It was kind of the reverse I would have to take, take away his surfing time to make make him throw me batting practice or whatever. Um,

but yeah, I mean, it was it was really all I ever did. I mean, outside of, you know, friends and surfing and that I mean, I didn't play into their sports. I was solely focused on that and I always kind of wish now looking back on it, that I was a little bit more kind of open Thio to play in some other sports. Oh, are just kind of doing some other things that you know your kid for only so long. And it's like you kind of get so focused and consumed by it. Sometimes I don't know if it's if it's the best thing. Um, I mean, I I don't know if I'd necessarily would change anything in my life, but you always kind of look back and say like, Well, I wonder if I would have done anything different where I would have ended up

Well, I think you made a good choice. I mean, I'm a big fan of your work and, you know, you've you've done some really great things. I mean, you used to work at Focus Lab, big fan of what they do now, your GoPro. I mean, who's not a fan? You know who's not, who's not watching what GoPro's doing. I mean, GoPro is everywhere. That's gonna be really exciting to be able to,

you know, create things that so many different people you know, individuals, families, professional sports. You know, things that people use every day now.

Yeah, it's also it's also super scary when you start start designing for things that people care so passionately about. Um, there's there's a certain level of, like anxiety about, you know, ideas and, um, you know, features and things that you put out there that you know, you're you're almost only want to rock the boat sometimes, even even if it is in the user's best interest. You know, they don't always see that at the get go. And you know, you try to do your due diligence, but, uh, sometimes it doesn't always work out

so real quick before we start talking about we've been doing recently. I'm curious. What caused the transition for you in sifting from client service is to working at a product company.

Yeah, that's, um, that's a kind of a big step, I think in my design career. You know, I loved every day at Focus Lab on before Focus Lab. I had my own kind of freelance business, so it was. Client service is then it's really all I ever knew. Um, and I got to a point where as much as I loved focus lab. I stopped loving the, um you know, the quickness that you were in and out of projects. Um, there were some projects I couldn't get out of quick enough.

And then there were some projects. I was like, Oh, man, I really wantto live in this world for a while on dhe. See where it goes. Um, I always felt like I was kind of doing, you know, the beta version for everybody. Um, and there's some some really great things that you learn And you know, you the education that I got working at Focus Lab is amazing and, you know, obviously has helped get me to where I am today, But really,

the crux of it was just wanted to get into a place and really live in that world for a while and just really do some deep thinking and work with disciplines that I hadn't really had a ton of interaction with, was also working remotely, um, my entire career. So I was working from the house, and I and I kind of wanted to get around people and kind of be an environment that, um would help me learn right I think as creatives were always kind of looking t taught new things. And we've always looking for that knowledge. And, um, you know, when you're working remotely, it gets really difficult.

Yeah, that's that's interesting. So now you're a GoPro. What is Ah, which role it go pro and like What? How is how does Charlie Span ecosystem of design in that organization?

Yeah. So I might guess my official title is Ah, you X. You I design manager on the software team down in our office in Carlsbad. Um, and then I also have kind of this other job, which is kind of creative director for one design which spans across the company. Um, working with the hardware you x team and marketing and entertainment. Um, and working with this really great team just to come up with, like, a universal design language that we can spread across the company and make sure everything is looking like it's it's go pro.

So, Ari, is that effort a collaborative effort between all the designers and design leads? Or is that something that you spearhead?

Yeah, it's a little bit of both. Um, it started out as an initiative with the hardware design director and the user experience director for software. Um, and really, they were kind of task Thio, assemble a team Thio compiled this. We like to call like polish. Right? So you actually, why Motion sound? Um all these things that are consumer facing, um, and really kind of elevate the level of design a GoPro, um, along with,

you know, like some, Like founding, guiding like principles and the mission statement. Things like that toe help onboard new designers. So they knew what they were getting into. Um really What? It was just kind of, I think, you know, design at GoPro. Just taking that next step, Um and really kind of focusing in on becoming an ecosystem and, ah, kind of a media camp. A company rather than just a camera company.

Yes. So, you know, earlier we were talking about how you know software and, you know, in software design is is kind of a startup at GoPro, it couldn't have been easy to create alignment with all the all the teams necessary to make make that happen. How long did it take from inception to where it is now? Thio to create this design language system.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's something that we're still, you know, doing at this very moment. We started about close to two years ago. Now that I think about it, um, you know, in the early days, it was, you know, just allying with some key people in some certain areas across the team, you know, hardware and marketing. Um, and getting in a room together and just really kind of,

you know, doing design sprints of you know what, what should go pro look like? Like whoever designed for who's you know, who's our customer. What's the persona? Um, you know, color palettes. And, you know, we have a GoPro brand. Is that still, you know, fit, You know,

exploring typography and iconography. I mean, it was just kind of this war room for a couple months of designers just going through it, orations and figuring this stuff out. Um, and then alongside of that, you know, GoPro's massive And when you start thinking about how many design teams and places were designed touches at go pro. So we were kind of on this, like, search for just finding people. Um, we were I think government had grown so quickly that it was really easy for a lot of these disciplines. T kind of get siloed. Um, so I mean,

there's people up to like, a couple months ago, they didn't even know existed. That should have been involved. A one. So you know what a lot of ah, you know, hiccups along the way and learning curves. But, you know, it's come a long way, and we just had a really big hardware launch last week and software launch yesterday. And, um, it's really cool and exciting to see all this great work from all the teams come out and actually get in the hands of users.

Yeah, those of you that hasn't haven't seen it. There's been a lot of product launches. There's a new hero. Five. There's the Karma drone brand new software suite is pretty awesome. I mean, it's it's apparent that that work is paying off. I mean, looking at the shots he posted underlings freakin slick and sort of back back to the whole learning thing. I mean, I think you picked a great place to go because you know the one great thing about agencies you get the variety in client work, But you you're able to find a place that aligned with your personal interests and outdoor sports. Oh, our sports. Plus, you get to touch and enormous ecosystem of products and consumers that range from professional sports too.

You know, Mom and Dad using a GoPro with their family and yeah, I mean, just the variety seems really awesome. You know, uh, Mac desktop applications, you know, mobile applications soft. You know, editing suites, Yeah, all kinds of stuff.

Yeah, really? When I was had been interviewing a couple places and a lot of like and some really great companies and really smart people. And, you know, one of the reasons I chose GoPro was for that reason, I was concerned that, like, Okay, I'm transitioning from a job but focused lab where I might be working on, you know, five projects in a week that span from illustration were Thio, iconography, Thio, a website thio on IOS up in a week. And then all of sudden, I'm going to get stuck on this product on this platform.

And this feature like that was a really concern of mine. And so I was really at the other day. I was really thinking like All right, I need to come into this little bit. I don't want to say cautious, but I don't want I don't want to go completely to the other side of the spectrum like I need I need some, like, middle ground, at least to get my feet wet. Um, so go pro was the logical choice for me. I mean, like, like we were talking about earlier with a being kind of a startup Feel, um, I got to wear lots of hats.

Um, probably more hats than I really knew I was getting into. Um, my my former boss, Vanessa Chou Shih. She warned me, but I didn't I don't think I really paid attention. I thought she was gonna joking. Um, but yeah, it's been kind of Ah, amazing. Amazing learning experience, for sure. I mean, ever everything from getting to work and hope on that you I for for the new Cameron and the new drone.

I mean, that's a space that I never thought I would, you know, have a hand or, um to get to design in, um, just a whole new world of constraints from the platforms that I was used to. Um, and then Nike mentioned, you know, just on our team with, you know, mobile and Native Mac and Windows. And, of course, the Web.

Um, so, yeah, I mean, it's been awesome. I mean, it's really I've been really fortunate in my life for a lot of things, but especially the last few years with Focus, lab and go bro,

that's awesome. So I have a question with with so many things going on that are all exciting, how do you Harry ableto split your time with all these different product teams?

Yeah, so I mean, it's it's it's really difficult, to be honest, I don't think there's I don't know if it's necessarily the best thing to do. And I think if you and we had more resource is it would be great to be a little bit more focused. Um, you know, it's it's kind of just goes back to the days of focus Library. You just you did you do as much as you can and to the best of your ability and really make sure that everybody has everything they need. You know, sometimes you're working super late, answering emails that midnight and some days, you know, you're not working this hard, so you just can't take the good and the bad there with with the balance. Um,

but yeah, it's difficult, you know? I mean, luckily, everybody here is really, I think, thoughtful of time. So there's not a lot of wasted time. Everybody's really, you know, attention to detail and really focus. So when you do when you are spread across really thin or have tons of meetings in a week, you can kind of get everything done. Um, which is difficult. It is. It's really It's really a challenge that a you know, struggle with every week.

Yeah. Yeah, I've been I've been there when I used to work it. Ever know there are only two designers to 30 engineers and we were trying to work on Evernote skitch products across eight different platforms. I've definitely definitely been there, So let's talk about team. Um, with that in mind. So when you joined, um, how large was the design team? Iran, And how big is it now? And how's the team structured? Um, you know what kind of skills do you look for our people? You know, sort of multi dimensional. And what do you look for in candidates that you're

hiring? Yeah. So when I when I started, we were pretty small where software is actually split between two locations. So we have our location down in Carlsbad. Um, and then we also have one up in San Francisco in the city on and then headquarters for GoPro's in San Mateo. But the two software teams air between the city office and Carl's about, um I think when I joined, I want to say we were like, Gosh, I'm probably get this wrong, like, 10 or 12 maybe, Um, that kind of seems right. And then today I think we're closer to 20 maybe 2122 on u X and really,

the way we're set up from Day one was, um, kind of unique. I don't know too many other companies that do it this way, but we had ah set of U ex leads that were focused on either initiatives or platform. And then we had a pool of shared service is so in shared service's you had content and copy research, prototype visual design. Um, we just didn't have enough resources to really kind of build a team for each platform or initiative. So that's kind of the way we handled it out of the gate. Um, and it worked. I mean, I think it kind of goes back to what we were just talking about about wearing a bunch of different huts and and spanning across a bunch of different kind of designed platforms. Um, but over time,

you know that it gets really difficult. So we're really trying now, with the team growing and having a few more resource is too get in a situation where we're building out teams on each platform s so that we can move a lot faster. And there's not as many bottlenecks, kind of like we're talking about it. Ever note, Um, it's really hard when you have, like, one coffee person to, you know, write copy for, you know, seven different platforms and things. And it's just like, you know,

Hey, we kind of need that. Now can we get that? And she's like, You're like, 25th in line right now. You know the same thing on the visual design side. It's like I really need this button. It's like How about next Thursday? Yeah, doesn t I

think that's a smart approach, but I think if you're not seeing already there is that thing that happens at some point where you realize that if you've been on one platform, for example, that you need that variety so you know, allowing those rotations. I don't know if you guys do that, but that's a theme that I've been hearing, you know quite regularly lately is like, How do you provide the right rotations for the the designers that you managed to make sure that they're leveling up but also staying engaged in retaining? I don't know how you guys do that, but that that is probably one thing that I spend the majority of my time thinking about it. Fun size like How can I? How can I do that? Because I want. I want both things. As a design manager, I want my team to really focus and go deep and solve this thing and really carry it across the finish line and optimize.

But I also want them to have variety so that they're, you know, leveling up on different skill sets up whether it's research versus execution or just learning different platforms like Mac APS at Windows apse of not just mobile, for example. Um, do you Do you guys have a strategy for how how you'll do that. And I guess furthermore, um, how many people are? You know, how many designers you responds before and how do you How do you take care of them and yourself in your own needs and still find time for your family and to be designing? I know it's a loaded question, but let's

take a stab at what? That sort of that first part? Um, yeah, I think you know when it comes to making sure people are, you know, I guess a happy right with their day to day, um, and kind of and learning And, you know, hair you scratching this century, scratching that one. Um, really, What we've always tried to do from a hiring standpoint is making sure that everybody that we hire bring something new to the table. Um, and we really kind of focus on,

like the designers or whoever it is will bring something new that you can learn from. Um so maybe you're not doing the research or you're not you know, improving your copy skills by, like, a tactical standpoint, But you're working closely with these people, these people, that we're kind of demon like experts in that, um and and you're getting some, you know, visibility in there. So you're really getting to see that, Uh, you know, as faras jumping around from platforms, I think you know,

the shared service's has a really good chance to do that. Um, you know, with having a small team, I think some of the you know the platform leads have pretty good knowledge of that. And then the initiative designers, I mean, that's pretty much their focus right there taking initiative across all platforms. Um, so platform leads are probably the ones that get silent the most. Um, but I think that, you know, I think that's kind of what they like. You know, they kind of like living in mobile because they understand it and they know the ins and outs of it.

And they don't really have a desire to go to a Web, Um, or, you know, native desktop or something. Um, but, you know, it's it's just I think it's just part of the management side. to is, You know, we have 43 managers on the U ex team here, and it's just listening and and asking and getting feedback air. You happy? Like what's going on the, you know.

Hey, I'm kind of interested in this area over here. Okay, Let's see how we can kind of work you in there. Um I mean, it's just at the end of the day, it's kind of just give and take and just kind of, you know, I always try from a managing side, like, not worry about what's always best for GoPro. Yes, Um, and really, what's best for the individual because of individuals happy and they're taking care of than then go. Probably taking care of.

Um, so that's that's kind of the way I've always done. And I think that's how I always been managed and how I like to be in managed, even in, you know, taking like my sports background. Um, so that's kind of what I tryto reciprocate.

Wow. Okay, now, what about the last part of that?

How how are

you able to carry able to grow? Um, all these other individuals careers and optimized for your design team in your designers as individuals, but still and manage all these other responsibilities to the organization but still find time to execute. The reason why bring this up is I think there is sometimes a misconception of going into like a management design role means that you're no longer able to design, and I think it's, Ah, it's, um there's certain people that have cracked the nut and some people that have it. I think you you seem to crack the nut. Maybe it's the way you organize your life. I'm not sure, but I think it's pretty impressive to see people that are managing and and and and maintaining the independent contributor design their status and managing family all at the same time.

Yeah, I mean, it's it's definitely it's definitely not easy. I think you know the management role and then the icy side of it. It's like I think it depends on the set up. Um, for me, I don't think I'd ever manage unless I was able to do the creative work as well. I really enjoy the management side. I love helping people grow their careers, but at the end of the day it's like If I can't get into sketch at least a couple hours a week, I'm kind of lose my mind. Um, so that's really important to me. So I I find the time t make it happen. You know, um,

I I also I think, you know, it's one of those things that with our team and the way we're set up, it allows for me to do that and not be a bottleneck. Although I'm sure if you talked to some guys on my team, I'm I'm probably Mm. Uh, but yeah. I mean, I think, you know, I think you also have to take a step back and realize that design is not just in the pixels. Um, sometimes, like, my impact can be much greater if I'm not in sketch,

and I'm doing, you know, critiques and design reviews with the team and, you know, providing my input through ways there, Um, and then you look at like, Okay, so I kind of struggled with it early on, like, Okay, it's I'm managing here, and I'm designing over here, and I was kind of made this, like, two different two different jobs in my mind.

And I was surfing one day and I was thinking about it. It was really kind of bothering me. And e was like, This is stupid. Why don't I just look at it as a full design problem? And then I started finding ways that, you know, designing the team, actually, kind of scratch that itch for me and coming up with, you know, ideas through through design, how we can improve on both things. Um, so I just kind of looked at it. It's like basically one larger design problem.

And, um, yeah, I think that was able to kind of get me away from feeling like to one side or the other, or I was always, like, choosing or wishing I was doing one or doing something else.

Man, I relate to that more than you can imagine. Where when I when I started fun size, it was just me, and I was doing all the work, all of that, like all the pixels and then Natalie, my wife join. And then we had all of a sudden we had a team, and I quickly was in this situation. And for a while it was really depressing. Um, because I didn't know how to deal with it. I saw my I saw these two different competing things and and I thought that by not being in the pixels as much as I used to be that I was a failure, you know? And at one point, I think I even thought about quitting because I didn't see myself as being useful.

Um, that's interesting. And and and finally, just like you, I realized shit like, you know, and I would see my and also my team really cares about me like, yeah, you know, you, Anthony gonna really do what you enjoy doing. You know, it's important to us. But when I realized that design was also designing the process is designing the cadence, designing the communication style that the team, the way we work together,

the career past the, um, you know, even even business development can be like a lot of things can be designed if you apply the same thinking too. But yet, like you, I do think it's important to, um, you know, be in the trenches from some Some extent, I I haven't probably found the way to be as active is as you are, but I think my my particular skill set is more about being at the white board and thinking about a complicated U ex problem versus, you know, like, you know, working in sketch. But I mean, I think that's awesome that you do that And I'm sure that your team really respects to you because you do that, you know, like because also too easy to just just for the switch to be flipped and just being a manager or not actually with the team making things,

Yeah, it's good. I mean, e think it's, um it's It's It's always like, you know, you you jump in there and they're like, Oh, yeah, Deacon, maybe designed just a little bit too kind of gives you something like a leg to stand on when you would you say hey, like, I don't know if I love that button style, you know, then they're kind under their breath leg. What's this guy talking about? S Oh,

yeah, it's definitely good to jump in. I think. I think the other thing to you is like, you know, tryingto trying to figure out like Okay, you know, I'm I'm terrible now because of, you know different responsibilities as far as like, the tactical day to day stuff. Um, but where can I find time or or value in actually getting in the pixels? And I think that's probably more of like that North Star. Um, approach s o. That kind of happened with you.

No. One design originally, you know, kind of like setting a lot of styles and guidelines and things and then allowing the team to kind of get in there and really think about more of the U ex than having to worry about button Stiles. Um, so, yeah, just trying to find different ways that you can kind of scratch that itch and then also not be about next year team. And, um, it's definitely, you know, process. That's still something I'm trying to improve on.

I really do think a lot of talented designers are scared of starting their own businesses or going into management tracks because I think they are scared that, uh, that'll mean not not being a meaningful part of the design. Uh, yeah. There, there, there go. You know, the and then the family thing, you know, in the work life balance. I mean, I know that you and I don't really want to call it work life balance because you said it's not really 50 50.

Yeah, I've never I've never understood it. It's like it's like work life. It's like if your work is 50 person, you just have life in this other 50% bucket like you're doing it wrong. It should not be that black and white like it's It's messy, man. It's, you know, some some weeks it's works 80% in Life's 20 and, you know, the next week it's Life is 95 works five. It's like it just is this this constant back and forth and, you know, trying to figure figure out, you know, on a daily basis or weekly basis of you know what makes you happy?

So I'm gonna ask you this, because it is a personal thing that I'm trying to learn for me here. A lot of times I think I have put off certain decisions of my life like starting a family and things like that, because for whatever reason, I feel like I just can't do all these things well. And I think you're you have three kids. Um, your design manager. You're working all this stuff and you're getting your hands dirty and you're going home to your family. Um, what kind of advice would you give to me, too? To do all those things in a structured way where it's not completely overwhelming.

Yeah, I got three kids, so everything's overwhelming. Um, I think it's just, you know, how do you How do you car about the time in a day or a week to do the things that matter most to you? Um, you know, I had a had an approach, you know, with my work week where I would time box, you know, meetings and design time when I was freelancing. And then when I went to focus lab because we had a lot going on and it was just like all right, I got it. I got to sit down a beginning of each week and just figure this out,

and I It worked really well. I was I felt super productive. Everything was really going well, as far as work goes. And so I started looking ways Like when Maybe I could do this some way in my day to day of my life. with all the things that I enjoy outside of work, you know, surfing and, you know, working out and play with my kids and spending time with my wife and all these things that, you know, at the end of the day, if I could If I could package it up and you know, some sort of percentage for each one in a day, I would be super happy knowing that there's obviously that could give and take depending on the day of the week. Um,

so that's kind of what I did. I just I just kind of outline my k. These were like, you know, 578 things. That man, if if I could do each one of these every single day, I would be super stoked. I'd go home at the end of day, feel happy. You know, blessed all those great attitudes that we want to use of that perfect life. And that's what I try to do. I mean, that's basically how I start every day. It's like,

all right, I'm going to try toe. I'm gonna try to, you know, play with my kids in the morning before I take him to school. And then I'm gonna, you know, on the way to work, I'm gonna try to surf, and then, you know, I'm gonna get to work, and I'm very fortunate. I think most designers are that we love what we d'oh. Um, so I'm to spend the day working.

I could go without all the meetings, but, you know, spending today, you know, being creative, you get a chance. Maybe I could go to the gym that day, or, um you know, whatever these things are that make you happy, Like, how do you fit them into a day? Um, e think that's the kind of goals you set those things for yourself and you hold yourself accountable to him and it's not perfect. You're not gonna hit them all every single day for whatever type of reason.

But if you have that goal every day, then you can be kind of focused on it. And I think you can really kind of help you achieve balance. That's, you know, throughout the week or throughout the month or, you know, even a year like your life. You know, you're really setting these goals and holding yourself accountable. I think I think That's probably the biggest thing is. Hold yourself accountable to it and make sure you're taking the time to do these certain things, you know, even if they're selfish things. Um, you tell my wife all the time she's she asked,

Why do you want to go surfing so much? I'm like it makes me a better husband and father. It's like, hands down like you spending an hour in the water a day. I'm way better to be around. You don't want to see me after a day of meetings with no surfing or not getting to work out or any of that stuff. I'm not. I'm not the most pleasant person to be around.

You would know. I wanna live in Austin. Then

I did live in Alabama for four years, so I had that going for you along along with living in Mississippi through college. So, um yeah, I think that's the other thing to, you know, just kind of because this is kind of funny, actually. All my friends and family, When we moved to Alabama few years ago, they asked me like how you gonna do that without surfing and it and obviously I was bummed not to be able to serve as much other than, like, kind of trips back. But it was just it was just replacing that thing. Um, that that certain thing that made me happy was just like, Okay,

so I can't surf anymore. Let me find something else to kind of fill that bucket. And it just happened to be like pickup basketball, which I know sounds super random. But I was able to kind of get a group of friends, and we would play quite a bit during the week, and it was again. It was just It was just finding these little things here and there just to make sure that my day was, I guess, more or less complete.

Yeah, um, I try to do these things, too, because if I don't, then I will automatically defer to just working every minute that I have available. Now I work with my wife so I can't really let work creep into our personal life. But I have some similar tactics that I used this to try to make sure that I get everything I want to get done during the day that I need that I need to do. Plus, that I feel like will make me happy. But just try not to let that come home with me. Um, but I think I wanna, you know, catch up with the another time and talk more about, like, how you actually,

unless you wouldn't tell people how you actually do that, like, is it just a daily affirmation process? Or do you have it written down on a repeating to do list? Or like, you have a wallpaper? I mean, like, how do you like, remember these things when all you have all of these were pulled in so many different directions contact switching between meetings. And you know, that phone calls and critiques critiques and I think it's sometimes easy to forget.

Yeah, I think I think now it's it's so ingrained and like my brain that I don't necessarily need that reminder. Uh, I think you know, right. Writing it down, obviously, is the first up. I mean, I think what you start to write it down, you can really start to kind of visualize it, and then you kind of kind of like rank it and order it. Um, I also think, you know, a really big thing about it is being creative about how you get certain things done in a day. Um,

one of the one of the big things for me is, you know, my my week is so crazy with meetings and some some meetings air just like in for meetings. And they're not really things I need to be, you know, actively talking in. So I might go to the gym during that and, you know, completely there listening. I might be just running on the treadmill. Um, but it gets me out of my chair out of my office. I To be honest with you, I feel like those are some of the best meetings I go to because I'm completely focused, Um, versus sitting at my desk.

And there's distractions and people and things like that. Um, you know, it's e think there's a huge misconception, especially for, like, younger designers, and, I don't know, maybe even just older designers or whatever, but, you know, just because you're sitting at your desk, you're not productive, right? Um,

kind of lewd. Alluded to it earlier about, You know, sometimes I'm the best designer when I'm actually surfing. Um, I have a lot of people. Tell me how you designed really quickly and you seem like you get through things really quick because they see me sit down and sketch for, like, an hour and bust out of design. But it's like, you know, I'm constantly thinking about this stuff. I think that's kind of you mentioned you, Philip, your time with your work and partly because we love what we d'oh. Yeah,

I'm never not really thinking about some of these design problems. And you know when when you're clear and doing things that you love, you can kind of these little ideas and things creep in your mind, or you might see something a little bit different. You know, you get in that headspace where you're away from your desk, you're away from, you know, kind of. I want to see distractions that air, like negative, you know, the Internet or whatever it is, you know, for me, like serving or running or working out.

It's probably where I think the best. Um, so I'm sure some people hope he'll let it come in ways. Why is Charlie going to the gym? It 12 today or you know, why is he surfing at 10. 30? It's like I don't You know, I don't I don't know how many hours I work a week, because I don't know if you could really figure out that, because I feel like I'm kind of constantly thinking about it, but not in a negative way. Right? So, you know, it's just like,

yeah, if you want me to sit down at a desk and design and be super tactical You know, some days it might take me an hour. Sometimes two might take me, too, but always going through this stuff in my mind. So there, I think there's I think that was probably one of the coolest things I've learned over the years is like, You don't have to be at your desk to be necessarily working, so you can actually incorporate some of these things that you might enjoy doing and still be getting your day to day done. So you don't feel like you're I guess, you know, kind of in this, like, day of, like,

waterfall, you know, life, right? It's like, Okay, I'm gonna go do this and then that's now I'm gonna go do this and it's like you can do multiple things at once.

Yeah, yeah, that's that's That's awesome. Um, you know, it's It's also great to like. The surfing thing for you has got to be perfect because it's a way for you to be a better person. But it's also for you a way to think about the products you're designing for, you know, like, kind of indirectly in a way, right? Yeah.

There's tons of people with GoPro's a little dangerous,

So back to go pro little bit. Um, Because one of the things that you know everyone's talking about these days is, you know, virtual reality. Go pro has a V r rap. Are you also working on that?

No. That's actually our team in. Um gosh, I was gonna pronounce it. It's any sham. Very, um, way acquired. Ah. Team called color. Amazing team in the Alps. And they have a design lead over there, and we work closely with them and, you know, with one design. Um, but yeah,

they run that over there, and, um, they're some of the stuff that they're working on is just amazing. Um not sure how much I can really speak to it, but, yeah, the V R office. It's one of those consumption things that I go to, you know, a few times a week just to see some of the video. It's It's pretty, pretty amazing stuff.

That's Ah, color with a K right. K O l O r. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's interesting. All right, so what's Ah, you know what? What are some of the things that you're, um, hoping to do next? I mean, what do you What you thinking about? Like, what is the next year look like for you?

That's interesting. You know, I really, really trying thio home this kind of management skill. Um, I think it's something that I've always been thrown into from, like, an early age, just, you know, with sports and being like a captain and kind of like, I guess, maybe look to as like, a leader. Um, and it just kind of followed me through my professional like design career, but I don't know if I've ever really hone those skills necessarily.

I've always just kind of done what felt natural, which, you know, I think I think is always, you know, a good place to start right. Kind of kind of go from the gut. Um, but there's so much stuff from a business side that I'm really eager to learn about. Just become better about you know what I mean? Hit Sounds terrible to talk about it like budgets. And you know more about just building out the teams and team structures and some of that stuff, and I just never really been privy to, especially at, like, the scale that we're at now.

Um, so I'm kind of excited to kind of continue that, Um, obviously, you know, design, I think is you're learning something new every day. Um, different skills techniques. Um, you know, it's been it's been a blast. I'd love to spend some more time with the hardware you X team on camera design and drones. Um, super interesting space. Just a whole another level of constraints as faras, how you're designing for underwater and outside and different lights and things. So So that's something I'm kind of eager looking forward to this next year,

you know, let me know if you guys ever decide to make an underwater rover. I'd love to talk to you about

way just came out with a flying camera. Give us some time. Okay.

Uh, well, actually, you know what? I always thought I'd be cool is Ah, a drone that could drop like a fly over the ocean and drop a submarine. That convict that could, like, swim and, like, go to the bottom. And then it could also float to the top of that he picked up back by the drone. Anyway, like,

you probably just make it so you could hit eject button on the karma. Maybe the camera would just go into the water. And, uh hey, uh,

there you go. It's also cool that you're sharing your knowledge with other people. You know, even speaking, you know, value con circles. Actually, if I had known you were gonna go to circles and be in Texas, I would have gone and hung out with you. Uh,

yeah. Circles is awesome.

Yeah, I've actually never been to that. Uh, never been to that conference, but I hear great things. You have any other speaking engagements coming up?

Um, I don't actually, um I, uh it is kind of one of those things that I've put on the back burner and Dolly value Khan was pretty easy because it was just right down here in San Diego. Um, but yeah, it's really it's been really hard and kind of a bummer, I think. When does that focus lab We really hit kind of the design conferences pretty hard. Um, and this last year, So it's just been a lot of work and not so much time to kind of devoto flying and going different places. Um, you know, outside of being to a few of the epic current events and things like that. Um, but yeah,

I really enjoy going and just getting out and seeing the people that you're kind of interacting with on dribble or Twitter or whatever it is, it actually putting a face to the to the Avatar is, um, pretty awesome. Um, I think where we met Where? Why, right?

Yeah. Then Wyatt at the currents.

Yeah, I think we're in, like, in the food line, right? Yeah. Actually, you know, we're talking on a podcast. I mean, it's Yeah, it's pretty cool. The whole design community is something that really wasn't aware of, um, until you know, maybe five or six years ago, and it's it's been probably one of the best parts about being a designer.

Um, just meeting all these great people that you have, like, you know, common interest with, you know, So that's pretty cool.

I agree. Well, you know, hit us up If you're ever in Ah, in Austin. And next time I'm in the in your area, I'll hit you. I know we couldn't meet a last time, but I'll hit you up again. Charlie. What the Oh, yeah, you ought to come. I mean, if if you ever want to come and have a place to co work and, um, hang out, he's got a place to work or a place to stay. We can. We don't have a notion, but weaken gonna lake and go buy body boarding or get a boat so we could do something that I

can hear some stuff out. There's, there's there's definitely water. Maybe there's, ah, wave pool or something. And in that built for us,

we do have one of those large. If it's not already open, they're building a large scale indoor our indoor outdoor surfing place.

That is perfect. You're ready to come. Right?

Well, well, you're welcome. Any time um, Charlie, why don't you let everyone know how they can follow what you're doing and finding on inter webs?

Yeah, that's a good question. So Twitter, I think, is Charlie. See? Wait. Dribble. Charlie, wait. That's probably the best to go to my website, Charlie, wait dot me. Um, yeah, I think that has a lynx for everything. So if you actually really want to follow anything else I say or do or photos, that's about the best place.

You guys check Charlie out. Check out the new GoPro stuff. Charlie. Thanks for making time.

Thanks. Yeah, it was a blast.

Pleasure to speak with you. I hope to see you soon. That sounds good. Um, we'll see you next time on the podcast thing. This episode of Hustle was brought to you by envision Designed better, faster together. Learn more at in vision app dot com Hustle is brought to you by Fun Size, a digital product design studio that crafts delightful digital user experiences with inspiring product companies. Follow us at hustle cast and fun size on Twitter.