way. Welcome to the hustle of podcast about product design Today we're here with my new friend, then Johnson, CEO and creative director at Elegant Siegel's. Hey, Ben.

Hey. How's it going? Guys? Have me.

Rick and I are really excited to have you here today. I'm glad that you were willing to to do this with

us. Know what you guys are doing over there and just excited me a part of the podcast and hope it can shed some light. And on a few, these topics.

Yeah. I mean, you do killer work over there, and, you know, we're big fans of what? What you do is, Well, we didn't get a whole lot of time Thio, you know, catch up at the currents. But I'm glad we at least got to meet each other and and hang out for a bit. Ben, why don't you take a moment to introduce yourself to our audience and talk a little bit about you and your company and what you guys are doing over there? Elegance Eagles?

Yeah. I said I acted owner and creative director elegant. See, those were created and see. Marquette, Michigan. We are gonna be approaching our 10 year anniversary coming up here this summer, so super excitable, that started just a really small firm, just myself, more creating a job for myself versus created an agency and evolved from there. But we really try to tackle Maur creative projects more creative better and one of things we really try to specialize in. Focus eyes injecting personality, teach every design that we create. And, yeah, it's been a wild ride, but I love it.

What kind of what kind of work do you guys specialize in?

We really don't have a one particular vertical, so we were with all different industries. But we really lean towards people that are trying to break the mold, do something a little different. So we really look at projects, fashion actions, boards, outdoors areas that were passionate about, and just clients that we really aligned with her that won't break the mold, push their brands and push their storytelling. So as long as we align, I'm kind of that those are the clients we're looking for.

So before we actually get to talking about the project work, if that's the kind of stuff that you guys seek out, how do you. How do you understand this? This story that they're trying to say and determine whether how that fits into a possible cultural fit or fit for your agency?

That's a good question. A lot of it is just listening. Listening to the clients off the wise. You know, what are their problems? If we can really sit and put ourselves in their shoes and figure out what their problems are and what the day today is, we consume people here at Segal's. We really understanding people. And I think that was gonna dump town some of our future discussions here, this podcast. But the more we can kind of understand client and ask the right questions and read between the lines eyes gonna really make sure we're gonna line as we work together on try to solve the problems.

What kind of a Benz? Rick, what kind of stuff do you look for them like when you're, uh, you said you try to listen to him, listen for the why, like what's a good? Why what's Maybe maybe what's a bad why?

Well, I have hundreds of you know when I do, then game over, but because it's still Sometimes you think you've got it figured out You're just not quite on track, but, um, the wise they we get a lot of businesses that want to stand now and they're currently looking the role looking the part of all the other businesses in the industry and their goals is to do something different. And so they are coming to us and we ask some questions that are leading them tow one into, explores new options and set some trans versus follow them that those are class that we right away gravitate towards.

Mmm, So difficult. Clients are a typical, I guess comes in and is like, Look, we just need a marketing site. We'd love it if you would use the I don't know, bootstrap or whatever and just get it to be, like parody with what other people are doing. This sort of like opposite of the type of work

that you're looking for. Yeah, that's why don't we still do those projects? But it kind of goes to some of the roots off how I think we evolved into do more progressive work. Waas. We always would typically do two concepts so we would do a concept A. That was very much what the client asked for. The cloud one's blue gray traditional standard, you know, and we would still try to meet other goals and factor in all the ins and outs of what they're looking for really make something beautiful for them. But we also do a concept B where we put our own twist on it, and where we really try are more reading between the lines and how we tackle it. If it was our own business, so each project and I do, I will not put it out there it unless it's something that I would say was my own business. So that's That's where we started evolving this concept too early on Siegel's where we have a more progressive or unique more outside the box, something where we push ourselves and pushing the client.

And it was really interesting that 80% of the time the clients were not expecting it, but they loved and would start gravitating towards it. That really helped progress our work early on so that taking that risk going for with that concept so I don't stay away. We do a lot of projects that a lot of people would look at and probably say This is not explaining, you know, want to do this. But if how do we take that and look at that challenge and make it exciting, make interesting. You can solve that riddle. You know, it's I think it's amazing feeling and something that way tried to do.

How do you get your team on board with stuff like that? You know, like other designers excited about something that's not traditionally or immediately exciting?

Yeah, it's going part of just building the culture of that here. Siegel's. I would like to think I lead by example for that and and pick people who want to challenge themselves and want to evil and can think on their feet and roll with it and find pride in doing tough tasks like that. Not everyone can do so. I do a lot of that from grooming people early on that have been at Segal's and also just instilling that and from Day One and the people here have just sort of become part of what makes us great and has built over years and years and years more and more employees and everyone adapting that. So it now I don't think it's much of a downside. It's just say challenge.

That's interesting. You know, we were talking about empathy, not just empathy of the the end user, the in customer, but also being empathetic of the customers customer, the customers, team customer business. I'm sure there's a lot of overlap there, right, because, you know, sometimes it may not be well, sure, Like, you know, sometimes it might be like a design opportunity to really do something new and sometimes new,

regardless of how exciting the project is. I mean, even the most exciting project, the rial. One other real opportunity is to build a relationship of trust with that client. Sometimes the trust is there on day one. Sometimes it takes a little bit of time when you can kind of help them create wins in their own work or on their own team. And, you know, sometimes they start opening up and letting you push the envelope more things like that, and maybe share a little bit of your thoughts on that. Because when we were talking about topic for day today, empathy with with, um with customer was something that you seem to be pretty interested in, and I'd like love to hear your thoughts on that.

Yeah, I feel like I've always had a pretty good read on just people and getting toe a good grasp on someone really quickly as far as who they are, what they're about, on what makes them tick, and so be mailed to put yourselves in that person's shoes, lived that life for even a second is going to make you have that much better grasp on what they're trying to achieve. And so that empathy for the client is going to give you a better insight into the user as well, because I can't really probably get as good insight into that person's business without their help in their guidance. So you just have to stripped back a lot of layers of view of yourself. Put yourself in their shoes and it's tough. It's not always easy, and some clients a lot. You can align right right away because you have similar backgrounds and someone beliefs, but other times it's a trick, your problem. But if you can do that, it just makes it so much better, and it's makes your designs evolved so much quicker.

So you you've developed a skill for doing that. You're running an agency. How do you help all of your other designers do the same thing? Or do you have a formal process for that? Like is that Are there things in, like kickoff in Discovery where you have activities or you're actually intentionally trying to learn? Get into the shoes of the organization of the people they are, I mean, were even more far fetched. You Have you ever done a persona for a customer? How do you help your team grow in the in those developing those skills that you have?

The answer. That's probably half cluster, and now people want to hear. But there's really not a secret ingredient to it. A lot. It's just from myself. It's instinct. I just I just This is doing it and through practice, in trial by fire and taking those risks. And but as far as a team, it's it's me guiding them through through each piece. So our junior designers gonna work much closer with me than our senior level designers. And I also try to attract talent who I feel, has his character traits similar to I do as far as being able to read between those lines. So I hire along based on personality and based on character traits. I can tell him live two minutes if the person is gonna fit or not. Their work could be amazing,

but they wouldn't work within our organization because they don't have the right character traits to fit into what makes Siegel's great. So they could be a great person still, too, but they have looking for that entry of what? What makes these companies

tick. So when, uh, someone's not a good fit in your two minutes into the interview, do you just stand up

and walk out of the way? No. Perfect? No,

no. Can you actually give us a sense of what your current team is like? Like what? How many? How many designers engineers do you have? And are you guys a distributed team? Or do you Do you guys have an office, or can you tell us just a sense of what your team looks like?

Yeah, that's probably a good helps with this. Some of the whole piece of the puzzle. Everyone here minus one person is in house so okay were very closely together, which helps with me being able to be highly evolved all projects and are one employee who is not here. Chris Larose, crazy, talented designer and had been with the company for a few years as an intern toe a part time employee to a full time employees. And then he moved to another part mission just for family reasons. And so he already had a very close working relationship with me and the team, so it was easy transition. But everyone else is in the house, and we have a bounce between design and front and death. We really don't do any heading back and stuff. It's basically creative and dizzle mole, and that's pretty much it. So our skills are very focused.

And so the team does allow the team because both front of them and design and then have a team is just designed. And then I act as creative director. We have art director Miles, and John is our project manager, and he worked with me in a lot of business. Damn it, just sort of running, running the show, as they say.

Okay, okay. To follow up questions to that, uh, number one like any, Uh, like, how many designers ish are they? And how do you kind of construct your teams? Like, Is there like two designers per project? Or how does that

work? Yeah, so I should. There's nine of us total. So we're small small agency, okay. And, uh, the products really saw. It depends on the size of projects, so but typically will have at least two designers on project. And that's what we still use, that a B concept are and that we usually always two concepts for every project. And we'll probably was a Glock. We'll probably do more concept in internally. We'll present two concepts to the clients. And so we continued that for since day one. And it's just has worked for us, and we kept it going.

Did you say you guys were in Michigan?

Yeah. So, Marquette, Michigan, it's It's the biggest city in the upper peninsula. So if you if you hear a small hands of Canadian accent, it's not Canadian. That is upper. That's uber uber, for I

don't know what you're talking about.

People so funny clients. You sound like a surfing convenience. So and then when I just over 100 people thought I was from Canada. So

yeah, that's my way north. Something we've been Ah, for some reason, actually. Ever since up occurrence, we've been sort of like, uh, discussions. Been floating around a little bit about just geography and where you're located. When I think of Michigan, I think of cold. I think of Great Lakes. I think of close stick to Canada. I don't think of design. Um, how How does how does where you guys are located? Affect your business? Is it Can you talk about that?

Yeah, one of us. One of the items, I think really helped us early on. It was because we were isolated. We were pushing each other turn. We had a great team of designers and we were very, very competitive, friendly, competitive, but competitive. And it was always whose locks and get picked. Who can do the cruelest thing, who can. And it was fun, and it still is. We still have that someone here now.

But that progression we were started lot of islands, and we had no idea. Besides, what we see here in our line before we were doing was if we thought was cool and clients I was cool. But as far as the grand your audience, we had no idea which I think really, really pushed us and helped us. We weren't necessarily like the Bay Area sometimes is on its own island and it's the bay and you gotta do what everyone there is doing. And we weren't really following that. So it mattered. Guard being isolated helped us, but a lot of men when dribble came out, and some of the other design social networks that changed the game a bit for us for the better from exposure Sandpoint. And but as far as communication goes, it's ever really been an issue. We were in hearts all over the United States and international.

We were working with clients Right now in Australia, we've got obviously clients West Coast, East Coast way probably don't even do that much west, so it hasn't ended us. That's

that's awesome. I mean, I've seen your work. You guys are you know, everybody knows that you guys do incredible work, and I personally think it is fantastic. So I think I was kind of wondering if just does is where you guys live. Um, do you think that the culture or anything like that does that does where you live inspire you when you're designing? Does it come into the picture at all?

Yeah, for me it does. I'm glad I'm actually glad that question, because the wilderness and outdoors and being away from the city is a huge inspiration for me being in the woods and with my dogs and hiking around. And it's quiet. I don't have my phone. I'm not. Computer in nature is a huge, huge inspiration for me. I don't draw a ton of inspiration from other people's Web work. I do. I'd be lying if I said I didn't, but I dropped more my inspiration from nature and our and probably nontraditional design our practice on your amazing you know. So I don't necessarily look at other websites trying to get inspiration from

that in that perspective, And that experience, I'm sure, does not hurt your ability to attract like minded clients that are looking for that, you know, unique angle, you know?

Yeah, because this it's easy to say we want we want X, and it looks like X. But if you want something that doesn't really exist yet. That's where I get excited. I fired those projects and I love that's what pushes me. And and that's why trying to, just like by examples, I put pretty high standards on myself and I tried. I always do something new for myself personally, each design, so every single design, trying to integrate something that I haven't done before And it could be super time. It could be a but it could be a ah, footer detail doesn't have to be something drastic. But if I'm not progressing and do something unique and different, everything on the locks, I'm still gonna stay.

Do you think the clients benefit from you wanting to do that for for your own design sensibility?

I mean, like,

because I did that, too. But I'm wondering, like sometimes, like, Okay, am I doing this for me, or am I doing this for the client work? Is it just sort of something that's happening

a little? Both, I mean part of public selfish reasons. Sure, part of it is I would hold classes coming to us now because they respect our work and our process, and it's been working a lot of our kinds. Now, trust is far more than I ever did before. So ah, lot. Most of them will come to us and say We want you guys. D'oh, d'oh! For us so so well, Shit!

Is it a fair assumption to say that your shop in your work is known for great story telling?

I hope so. If people say that, then that made my day. So I like I loved if it's not there, that's what my old b you were I felt build very beautiful, responsive sites. But if we were gonna put one piece and nail down one thing that makes us unique, I would say it's story time piece.

So there's two really exciting things to talk about there and weaken. You know, I don't know if it matters would order, but your your personal website is a story in itself on, you know, tell us about Jack Dusty, tell us. Tell us that story. And then maybe let's talk a little bit about how you get when you have Now that you've found the right client that aligns with their values is gonna let you create the next big new thing and really flex your muscles like, how do you How do you take? How do you bring storytelling into that experience in doing the work? I'm really excited to talk about both of those things.

Yeah, the Jack Dusty experiment kind of came out of nowhere and grew into something far different, I guess. Bigger than it was originally planned or anticipated. So I remember Tobias Toby is set wrong. Had said something about you. If you look at someone's portfolio when you see 10 IOS designs, you can guarantee you know that next person's project's gonna be it's gonna be in Iowa society. That's very similar. And that struck me and I was already working on the jacket see Project, but it just kept made. It became more of a realization that I wanted to do the work that I wanted to be doing, and I felt like I was having less time to create my own designs. Hands on. I was very involved in all the teams projects, but I was less and less designing myself, and I didn't want to lose that.

I didn't want to say Like I said, I wanted to make sure always progressing, so I gave myself the challenge of doing one design per day, and that's where Jack does experiment evil from. And there's when it first started. There was not a lot of planning strategy. It was just gonna take a site. I feel confused. Some TLC and I'm a Plum Island twist on it, and that was it. That was a whole process and thought behind it. And just to be creative, creative as I could, there is no limitations. I didn't put any kind of that standards on myself. Besides,

too, tell the story and go for it. So take risks and go glam on singing and have fun. And so the 1st 1 I did the night that you still want to look at the site. I loved him escape border and what he embodied and his personality and his personal brand. And it wasn't reflecting to decide. I said, This is it is my 1st 1 on one side, the 1st 1 off the gate. Each one became a little bit easier, and the storytelling peace became Maurin Trickle because I love the idea of time, these athletes to the products say uppers and did and sports represented and making it one intermingled thing. Not every Jeff just said it was a athlete and brands that they represented, but about 3/4 of them, we're probably in that. So I just experimenting and push myself.

And I was so intrigued with this different grid structure and I'm problem or interests. It'd the negative part of part of space relationships versus the the designs himself. But that really became almost obsession for myself throughout the process and really helped me grow as a designer. And we started picking up projects that people said we saw X. We want that we saw X. We want that. And so we're picking up repainted projects with people basically just wanted to design and just swapping their pieces. So we did some. I needed some work, some about say what it wascause. It was behind the scenes. We did some work for, like, a surf surf company because they saw that John John Mark and we did a couple other projects up that would direct. They saw the Rick Ross wanted and they said, Hey,

we love this just happened. So you know what? We could do something for you. So it became a very cool. That working tool and just a personal progression myself. And I just try to keep it fun and light. So if you need it, it's half man, half mermaid. It doesn't make sense.

So it started out as a, you know, from understand started out as an outlet for you to continue to to grow and and in what you just said, it seems like it's resulted in a lot of awareness. And both you and the company, Um, what is, like, what is behind the name Jack Dusty like, Is that a nickname or is that just you know, Like, what? What does that mean?

So where it came from, Waas was trying to help my sister Welcome to the name for Harris. And I looked up non filter terms and I found the term Jack dust and Jack Dust Iwas It actually came from the term jack of the dust and Jack in the dust was the guy who made the bread on the warships for the British warships. And so he was dust because he had baking. So Jack of the dust and I saw Jack does he signed super bad ass. I was like Man Jack, Dusty game over nautical theme. So I just decided that has become my alter ego for this project, and I and I thought I had bought a domain. I'm Jack Dusty before I didn't start it, I'm back testing project and did it became a living, breathing thing, and it went from There

is the elegant Siegel's nautical reference as well.

No singles Waas. A Just a funny oxymoron. And it was the name of snowboarding movie I made for my senior thesis project in college. And when I started my business, what I call my company moms like, Why use elephant? Cuz I got brandy So far, waste you.

There's a quote on your site that says, on your personal site. I am jack jessee dot com. I have been really interested in unique ways to sell products through storytelling versus the traditional e commerce experience. Talk about that. What

you mean by that? So you go to the site now, um, let me practice. One thing is, there's a piece of commerce where its conversions and balance of conversions versus brand and storytelling. But if you go to so many science out, it's a great of products, and that's it. You really move about a hero photo. Greta Rocks form that's been

a be tested for

years. And when it works, it works. I get. But how can you make a relationship where someone has a feeling associating with a product? So I do? CrossFit. I love process. I've been doing it for a couple of years and I love the compare myself to these athletes and and I know what I'm going to do these workouts and they're doing on behalf of time. So I'm like, Man, how can you imagine? It's impossible, But I can at least put myself in their shoes. No plan intended for the Nike that I did. But this is It's something where you can I can feel like I'm part of that and I'm a part of this brand. I'm a part of this community.

I need these shoes because, you know, I I'm living this. I'm going to start place. And so how you batter tell the story of these shoes and better tell a story of how someone's relating to these products through visuals and story versus just a good products. And I don't know why I would be far from saying I solved the riddle, but it was a fun exploration how you could do that. And I really think there's gonna be an evolution where you see more more of this from commerce that play.

I mean, it makes sense on the whole, like circle of wife. Why, I think I don't know if you've ever heard of that of some people. Call like the Golden Circle, like on the outside is is what it is. And on the like, there's a layer in between which I kind of forget right now, Yeah, the very center is the wise. You're sort of like you're you're buying something because of the why? Because of what you know, you expect it. How you expected to make you feel? Yeah, exactly.

And and, uh, yeah, so it does. I like that approach is just sort of nontraditional. The other thing that's great about is in sort of treats humans like we're humans, like we're communicating the same way that we've always communicated through storytelling. And, uh, I think that's pretty cool. I mean, I didn't rehearse that or anything. I was just kind of thinking

about it. I think you probably verbalized it better than I did. But I I think we're both in agreement that that conceptually it's ah, it's a great way to tie a pop, too, to more than just what the product is. The higher goal, higher thinking like what it's about. So you know that she was just one example, but there's a really emotional connection with that.

So, like in the in the studio, you know, say you're working with a brand Let's say let's say you're you're working with Nike and you know, how do you guys uncover those special moments that can that can be told in a story? And then I guess, even more importantly, like you're working on designs like, How do you present it to tell that story versus, like, you know, the typical you know? You know, design review. We're just like looking at looking at options and looking at the differences. Do you when you present these concepts, is there something more behind just the screens than that? That that support that direction

so as faras internally that we still do the same critiquing you would do problem traditionally, and that doesn't change. It's just I think how you look at it. But as far as presenting clients, it probably takes a bit more pitch Thio sell him on the idea and why we did it. And what the rationale is how it's gonna help promote. But more often than not when someone sees it, they they relate to it and get it. And if they don't get it, that they're probably gonna go with option, a safe option. So yeah, so, I mean, if they see it and wow, they're gonna get got the best reaction I can have my client is, they see it while you get there,

you got it. And for me, it's It's the biggest high in the biggest Russians. A designer. When you hear that from a client and know that you nailed it and you did, you read between the lines you put yourself in their shoes, you took a risk and it paid off. And for me, it's a huge part of what? What drives our passion for his life?

That's really awesome. I mean, how do you, um how would you respond to someone that says home man like I really get that, But, you know my my background tells me that, you know, I should probably, you know, following the format that all these other e commerce sites have. And, you know, my boss is gonna, like, grill me on conversions and stuff like that. Like what if they really, really get it, but they're scared to do it.

We get that and it's a tough thing to overcome, and it's it's still important. I don't wantto put Fred along messages say we're not still considered conversions because there's really no point in having a storm. I'm selling. Think so right wrong. But it's probably finding that safe balanced between two. So we might. A lot of times we swing for the fences and it gets pared back. But that story isn't lost,

so I'd love this. I'd love to see the stuff that's out in left field in, but

it could be more focused message or quicker, quicker calls to action and so and sometimes people. And that's fine too. But you can still take pieces away that I have injected that personality and but still have a super high traditional conversion standpoint. So a lot of times that gray area,

so I didn't expect to have this conversation. But since we've been talking about it, it's, you know, I have to ask you, Like, What about writing? You know, like, do you do you are your designers, skilled writers? Do you have writers on the team? Because do you mean like copyright? I mean, in addition to, like, great visuals,

you know, a lot. Sometimes storytelling is in a personality, you know, is in words or the voice and toner, you know, sometimes literally like written, you know, messages like, um,

before with you guys. Good writers know I So I am probably good at writing tags and headlines and high level sort of directives to guide someone through a page. But as far as the actual body copy, you don't want me touching that. If you see my spell and my grammar, you know, if you'd be laughable. But the team way will help craft some language for clients internally, but we don't actually have a cooperator on staff were working up for yourself and help me The voice on the topic. I'm sorry I said that the voice of your planet is super important. I mean, all those pieces played it gets. I mean, when you're thinking about the whole experience of creating a really memorable, personality driven site, it's the design. It's the time details. It's the motion has minutes. Is everything coming together that really is going to create a whole overall immersive pieces that someone really remembers?

I was talking to Joshua Taylor, who's gonna be on the show soon. Hey, Used to work at. Ever known at the time that I was there, I guess he was. I think his roles had a design. But over beers one time, he told me, like, you know, the vision for his new agency that he was starting was toe have ah, you know, an engineer, a designer in a rider on every project. Yeah. I mean,

that would be the dream, right? Money wasn't a concern. Yeah. Uh, yeah. So out of you. Can you get some advice to people that I don't know, maybe people that are in agencies, because what you're saying that you're doing is a lot easier said than done. I'm

sure points. Well,

I just mean even backing up further to like, you're very selective about the clients of the work you put out there and stuff. And you want Thio. Make sure that you're in line with the same message. Is your clients like, how do you do that? Because, you know, sometimes, like, you gotta pay the bills and you're like, you've got this client that's ready to, you know, give give a great payday, you know? But it's just, like work that you maybe don't believe in or something like that.

I think a lot of designers struggle with that because we all want, like, purpose and, like, great work and toward for brands that we really believe in. But how do you build a business and maintain that selectivity? Uh, while also like running a successful business. I'd love to hear you talk about that. If you have thoughts

on it. I'm sure it's Yeah. You guys asking good questions? You my toes Here. So, um, part way still take on projects that that end up being not as exciting for us, and we have a burger on the conversation, and but we do still try to really put our how can we still make this exciting? Creative? But but for the client, even if it has become not waiting visually are originally envisioned. We've been very, very lucky, too grown slowly enough where we have taken weeps as any business would. But I haven't taken a giant. It's incredible strides at one time so we can stay selective.

So, for example, we could probably be doing twice as many products as we are right now. And I don't mean that to sound cocky, but I just mean you get a lot of enquiries, but we don't They don't align creatively, don't align budget wise, whatever might be. And so we can be more selective from that standpoint. If we didn't have that flexibility to be more selective, we would have to take on projects that probably didn't fit necessarily is much in our wheelhouse, as much is like in the projects were looking to tackle, and that's okay. You know what? That would probably will still have times when we have to. We have to do that,

so but it's being very careful preventing, and it goes back to this instinct off. Be careful when you're talking with clients and asking them questions and and trusting your gut, knowing when to say no. I wish five years ago I could go back to myself and say, then say no like that was like, whoever you know, you could give me advice. They would have made my life a lot easier So that would have been a huge piece. And but the taking risks have this client that doesn't sound exciting and take a risk and do an extra concept and make it amazing. And if it doesn't work out, you kept your design team engaged and excited and going for it and you're pushing. And so you not only did you push your team, you gave the clients that unexpected or even extra. And on top of that, maybe that's what I'll go with. That's how I would solve the problem. That's how I think we approach it now.

Is it tempting when offers for a bigger contracts that you're not necessarily interested in our You know, uh, we could probably just take that staff up and, you know, keep working on interesting stuff, but have a bigger team and build your business to be a larger agency than nine. Is that ever tempting? Is that just not? Not even if I Well, Poppy,

we've been as Bigas Tear 11 and well, probably will be up to 10 probably here shot again. But I don't really have a goal to have a gigantic agency, partly because I, like, be working closely with my team. I like saying I mean I mean, I love being selected, but the products we pick and Kim Moti Mab we could take on a lot more projects and have a lot more people, and my team will be unhappy. And that sounds I'm sure you guys can relate to that. Will you take on projects? That team gets bogged down over it. Burnell are not engaged versus taking on projects that keep people excited and taking on not too many projects at the same time. So you become overwhelmed. The problem. I'm definitely in the past where it's you say,

Yeah, yeah, way got lots of projects. So, Hee, I

like what you're doing to, like the idea of having multiple designers on a project. I mean, because aside from the project itself, you could probably do more work just by spreading your your team thin. And we're in the same boat we've invested intentionally in the growth that we had. You know, we're the size of our now. We don't necessarily need to be this size, but we invested in some growth just so we could ensure that every project had 23 collaborators at all times to work. Tiu work together, you know, and that's I think that's cool. You do that, too?

Yeah. It seems like you guys we have similar mind sets in a lot of our philosophies from just bits and pieces. I heard about you guys. So let's hang out. I

s Oh, Rick, I think I think it was Rick the other day that suggested, or maybe with someone else that we start doing some designer exchanges with other studios.

Oh,

like a foreign design exchange? Yeah, like a foreign designs feel like we'll send one of our designers to be a to be an elegant Siegel's member for for a month. You send a designer here to be a fun size er for

a month. I have people that did if job opportunities

man, if we did that, I think, man, that would be really cool. Like I've never heard of that you might approaching no poaching, but you

might have a game changing idea. I mean, it's a cool way to learn to and see what is your work and adapt versus our team. So we'll have to want to keep this this idea brewing for sure.

All right, let's talk about that on slack. That's pretty cool. What? We should probably wrap up for a little over time. Um, but man been, It's been a great great I had a great time

talking. Thio had a blast. Kind of just songs. Just We're just chatting. So it was beautiful. Thanks

for making your first podcast appearance. Oh, is this is a first podcast appearance. Awesome.

1st 1 guys. Thank you.

Sweet. Well, congratulations on your 10 years, man. That's absolute amazing accomplishment, really. Especially in the design agency world. That's like you guys were like, Yep,

I'm getting old is not getting old men.

Uh, well, please, Can you tell our listeners like where they can find you and more about elegant Siegel's or Jack Dusty Twitter, that sort of thing.

Yeah. So elegant. Siegel's dot com police checks out there, and I'm Jack does dot com, and that's five big ones. Run on social. Twitter is telling. Siegel's and Facebook were were all over the interweb. So hope people checks

out, Coop. Thanks, but no thanks. Yeah, awesome. Hey, thanks so much for listening today. This is Rick. I'm sure you've all heard of envisioned. The product is practically synonymous with screen design. We're stuck. That envision is now a sponsor of hustle. Something we love about in vision is that they are so highly involved in the community. These guys really care about where design is going and the support created with loads of design. Resource is you, like kids designed process and interview articles on their block,

which is great for just general inspiration when building products. Aside from being a great prototyping tool, they also have features for a project manage man, creating mood boards and presentations, live collaborative screen share ings. And, like a 1,000,000 other useful things. I literally do not have enough time t even list all their features. But they pretty much got what you need. Bottom line, they don't just want you to be a user. They want to empower you with their tools so that you can do your best work. And I think that's pretty cool. Overall takeaway. If you haven't heard about in vision or haven't checked him out in a while, just play around with their latest features.

They have a free trial and a really impressive lineup of industry leading design and project management tools. Their home pages. Just envision app dot com. Check Mouth Hustle is brought to you by Fun Size, a digital product design agency in Austin, Texas, that creates delightful, innovative products for mobile, Web and beyond. Visit us on Twitter at fun size or visit our website of fun sized Psycho.