Hey, welcome to the hustle podcast. Podcast about product design. I'm Rick. Nestor, and I'm here with my co host, Anthony.

Hey, what's up? What's up? Uh uh. We got on the show today, Anthony. Today we got a friend of mine. Dillon. Sigur. Hey, Dylan, what's up? Hey, Harry. Do, uh, good.

Thanks for taking time to come out. Um, Dylan, I I think met virtually after I was on a damn. Benjamin five by five podcast. We cranked up a Twitter relationship pretty quickly. And so I guess we've been in contact now for chatting back and forth for about what? About three years, Uh, about a year and 1/2. About a year and 1/2. Okay. You're gonna have three

years. Same eyes that, um it was that, like the, um, quit show or

I'm not. I'm not really sure we'll have that. Yeah, I think it was quit. Okay. Cool. Yeah, it's cool. Dylan, why don't you introduce yourself really quick and let our listeners know who you are or what you're doing? Yeah, sure. Um, So without taking too long, uh, I I run a design studio called lovably, uh,

lovably dot com and um I also, uh, I'm a musician. I made a record called Clay, uh, which took two and 1/2 years, which was really fun. I worked on that for a long time. And you can listen to that at my own personal website. Yeah, it's It's pretty, pretty good stuff. I mean, you have produced more than just that one album, though, right?

Yeah. So, uh, Clay was the third. My third record by, um, I started in 2008. Um, I was 13 and I made I made one record that got me destroyed in school, um, in middle school and that that was fun on that. I had made a second record, which I consider to be my first record, because I pulled the 1st 1 The first, uh, well,

that second. But, jeez, what am I saying? Basically, my first album is horrifying, and it's still it's still live. You can listen to it on iTunes and all those other places. And I haven't for the past five years I haven't heard in a very long time, but, um, after that, I made a record cold readers and reporters, which was better not not great but better. And then I made Clay, which was the biggest effort so far.

And now I'm working on my fourth record, called The Birds will borrow Wall Street. Also, that will not be out. That will not be out for a very long time. Keeping the tradition keeping with the tradition of clay, which took two and 1/2 years.

Do you, um, perform to, like, play around and, like, tour and stuff? Or do you just like to, like, release digital music?

Um, I I do. I do play local shows. Um, I had bigger plans for Clay. After it was done, I was gonna do pretty regular shows in New York. Um, I decided to stop doing that when it became frustrating that no one would ever show up. Um, I mean, the the scene with with live music is so strange because you kind of go to build a following, and then the bars expect you to bring all of your friends, and I don't have any friends. And, uh, and and and honestly,

I'm not trying to, like play to the three people that already know me. I actually wanted to gain some awareness, which wasn't working. It was very stressful, An emotional thing. So I stopped for a little while, and now I kind of just do surprise acoustic shows and open mikes around the city. You're really You're relatively new to New York to write. You moved to New York City? From where were you living before upstate New York somewhere? Um, yeah. I was living on Long Island first and then upstate New York. Um, but I've been around the city for my entire life,

but I've been playing shows in the city for about four years, and, um and I just moved here in November, which is why, Which is why I'm still I'm right now sitting on the floor of my apartment because I don't have furniture. Nice. Dylan also made Cem tracks for an internal product that we made on our Fridays with both our friend off cold mornings. We haven't released that app yet, Dylan, but we still have the audio, and hopefully we might get that thing across the line and thank you for your contributions. That, um yeah, definitely. I honestly forgot that. Um uh,

I I actually remembered it like last month that that happened But then I forgot again. What really was inspiring to me about you is I mean, I don't, you know, talk to people about this a lot. But it seems like you've accomplished a lot spirit at such a young age. I don't know exactly how young or old you are, but you've produced several albums and most recently started a business. What? What? What made you decide to start your agency? Um, first of all, I'm 21. I don't usually talk about my age, but I figured once now that I'm over Now that I'm of drinking age,

you know, I'm not gonna be drinking. Uh, I can start talking about it. I know it doesn't really matter either way. Um ah. What made me start lovably, I have been obsessed with design forever. Probably before music. Um, I think I just have a weird obsession with creating with creating companies and and and designing something that I'm interested in. And, um and I don't know. That's that's why I started in music. And that's why I started in design. And I'm just trying to make good things and like

everybody else, kind of projects to do you guys work on.

We work on, um, websites and branding. Mostly, um, some some or marketing stuff. Um, some print stuff and that's about it. What's been, um, what's been the hardest thing for you? Guys like getting started or we're working clients. What are some things that you guys, what are some of the biggest things that you guys are trying to optimize for right now? Right now, it's It's mostly really refining wth e on boarding experience, which I've been working on for for probably,

I mean, obviously since I started. But for for this entire year, I've been pretty focused on making that experience more seamless for the client and more seamless for us, making sure things stay on time. It's hard. That's a hard. It's always hard, and it's the first, you know. It's the, you know, customers first impression of, of of a studio and of individuals and individuals are, you know, still getting to know the getting to know the customer for the first time and a lot of ah lot of things to unpack in that process. It's especially hard when you're when you're working on so many projects at once, we try to keep it down to a few a month at this point. But there have definitely been times where I've had 12 clients, and I'm just struggling Thio to make sure everybody's on on time.

What's your team like?

Barely existent. It's I'm the only full time employees right now. Um, I have a couple of contractors who I work with, we partner up to do. I give them some work and we collaborate together under lovably But I haven't employed anybody yet.

Yeah, and I think that's just really common nowadays. It's so much more like possible to actually collaborate with a distributed team. Um, and it just seems to make a lot of sense. I think you know anybody starting an agency or, you know, any kind of design shop at all is going to kind of naturally start that way. You're not gonna probably see anybody that just like, you know, moves into an office and hires 10 people right away. Just doesn't It just doesn't make a lot of sense

exactly. And I have a pretty independent spirit myself. I've not really spent much time working with other people until lovably and obviously I work with clients constantly now. But I really appreciate people who do things on their own. And and that's what these these other designers that I work with do. Ah, and I don't feel like I have to limit them into one thing. They can kind of go about their own lives and work on their own projects. Yeah, and Ah, and I'll come in and we'll help each other.

Do you enjoy, uh, collaborating with with, like, other designers and engineers and whatnot?

Yeah, I do. I enjoy collaborating with with designers for sure. With music. I do not. I can't stand playing with other people and especially recording. Recording is such a personal process. I just locked myself in in in a room basically all day, and that was that was Clay. It was every day. It was I was doing 70 hour work weeks for a little while with Clay, were you? And that was hoarding. That was just

me recording like, 70 hours week. You were writing music and recording, or were you like, managing client work while you are also music during that time?

No, I That was actually all music. I actually started lovably. I got the idea for lovably about seven or eight months before Clay was finished. But, um, but I did not go through with it until about two months before I finished Clay. So? So I I got to focus on clay for a while. What kind of suggestions would would you have for those other other professionals out there that are in the designer in development space that struggle with finding time to pursue other hobbies and fashions and other pursuits? I struggle. I don't know how to do that. Um, just don't be lazy. You have the time, and you're you're probably just not using it the way that you want. The way that you would ideally use it in that situation.

If you think you don't have the time, wake up earlier or go to bed later. Damn. Yeah, that's that's pretty riel. I can't I can't argue with that. Is there anything that you do with your agency specifically around, You know, work, days of work, hours that allow you to optimize for those things. Yeah, but I have trouble following them. I'm working harder to follow them. If you look at Lovelies website are ours are, uh Monday through Thursday from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. That's something I've adjusted quite a bit.

But I've always tried to keep Friday off of there. Just toe open to leave room open for improving the company. Yeah, and yet I honestly, I've barely been enforcing that until this week last week. It's honestly sad. Um, I spent a lot of time working on the company anyway, after hours, but But I would like to be a little stricter with that in the future.

Is it hard Thio do that just profitability wise. Like to, um you know, you could make more money if you had Ah, fifth day in your week. Is it a struggle, or do you find it to be, like, not that bad?

Well, it's hard to say because I haven't been following the rule. Ask me again in a few months. Carefully. I will be following my own rules. Yeah, I don't I don't know if you knew this about us, but we were structured kind of similar. Similarly, we work money through Thursday and Friday has always been in some form or fashion dedicated to a personal time or personal growth company. growth things that usually fall off in on the back burner that you really want to do. You just need focus. Time to do it. We've had two iterating that. But at this point, after doing it for so long, I can't imagine changing it, you

know? Yeah, that would be That would suck. Let's not do

that. Yeah, well, well, you're giving me a good incentive to work harder at that, will you? Not also. It also has a retention value and brand value for, you know, clients that they were signing up. You know, for your business and our people that you my employee in the future And, you know, like you said, it's nice to have, you know, when you're running a business and doing things like optimizing for on boarding.

And I mean, that never ends like you're always gonna have, you know, something to work on. And for me, Friday is like a good time to roll up my sleeves and focus on that for for a day. Another thing I've been trying to do is is give myself get, like, a better schedule for that time. So I have morning, afternoon and evening reviews that are all on our long. So morning review is from 9 to 10 afternoon reviews right after lunch. And, ah, and the evening review is from 5 to 6. The hour after we technically clothes.

And that that definitely helps, too. To give myself three hours a day to improve on that stuff, which, which sounds like a lot, but But I always find

a way to Philip. What do you do during that time? Like during thes reviews? Like, can you tell us what what happens during those? Are you looking at design work with other people? Are you? What are you doing?

Yeah, eso. The morning review is mostly client follow up. So I go in and take care of all of the email. But on Mondays, I also go back and look through past enquiries and make sure that people who reached out to us for help on a project and then disappeared are still, you know, in her system and and taking care of because a lot of people just forget. Um, so that's that's the morning review. Oh, and on Fridays, also, I do. I do all the accounting reconciliation on Yeah, it's not it's not. It's not that bad.

It's honestly not that bad. It's it's not. Anyway, afternoon review and evening review are more of more of an open, creative time for May. Um, so I can work on making the business better and working on and so that I could work on upcoming internal projects that I think will improve things.

So you set aside three different times per day. Three hour at an hour each, um, Thio? Yep. Sort of Circle back and look at these things.

Yep, exactly, Anto. And to just get my brain some time to work on some new

stuff. And so, in between those times you're doing regular, like,

client work or whatever, Getman, between those times, I'm doing client work. And a lot of times I do it after after six. Also, but trying to

stop. How long have you been doing that? I've been working for you for a while.

How long have I been doing the morning afternoon

evening review of these three reviews

A day or whatever. So I've been doing, um, I've been doing the morning review since I started in 2014. Um, I added the afternoon and evening reviews late last year, and it's been great. Um, what I found was I Actually I actually initiated it because not because I wanted more time to work on this independent stuff, but because I wanted to make sure that I was working on clients stuff and not this other stuff. So I gave myself these these designated times to focus on that stuff so that I would not have an excuse to not work on client work when I'm supposed to be. That's interesting. Um, so it has been where it actually has been working. Well, I've been following it pretty well. Yeah,

that's that's something Rick and I've been talking about a lot lately. I mean, every every everyone is optimized to be more productive in different ways, like some people on our team are are more effective. And, you know, the morning some are more effective in the evening. Some people, like, you know, kind of chaos and about juggling things like around like it's really hard to, um, it's really hard to formula. Eyes it. But when you're in control of your own, you know,

schedule, I think that's that's pretty cool. And I also think clients. If they're educated, they will. They appreciate some boundaries. Yeah, it can be hard to educate clients. And I don't usually like to, you know, force feed them too much about how I do stuff. Um, but But you're right, if, but I I just don't know if they care.

Yeah, you never. Most of them You can't really tell because we always give, um, during, like, our Kickoffs and whatnot. Um, Anthony will usually kind of give, like, an overview of, like, fun size culture and like how we do things and explain, you know, this is, you know, we work Monday through Thursday,

These air the benefits to, you know, to that that cycle you guys do get benefit out of it. And, you know, it kind of says a lot of stuff that is very important to us. And it's hard to tell if anybody is really, like, you know, tuning in or tuning out. But you also can't, you know, judge that by just that moment they remember, You know, people remember stuff later. I read a a really good quote from I think you on Twitter yesterday.

Anthony, there is a quote from somebody that you tweeted or something? It was like they don't remember. You don't remember what someone says or what someone does exactly. But you always remember how that person made you feel. I thought that was really, really neat and

totally true. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's top of mind right now for me, Like, you know, just like Dylan I'm obsessed with on boarding. I'm obsessed with, you know, delivering customer experience I'm obsessed with, you know, the end stages now that I now that we're structure certain way like those things air, probably that the three things were tough mine to me switching gears a little bit talking about clients who care. One of the things that we were talking about was in working with clients, uh, designing something that you're proud of that's long lasting when your client is heavily influenced by trends. This is This is something that you were talking about.

Dylan. Could you tell us a little bit about your perspective on that? And how you you guide a client through those conversations and decision making process, too, to really something that everyone could be proud of? Yeah. So, in the client business, this is so much of what you have to deal with. You have the majority of your clients coming in are probably going to be trend driven. Um, because their consumers and and and consumers Airtran driven. And if you don't know exactly, You know, if you're not a master in a certain field, then you shouldn't really be expected to be to be more than that.

Um and and so, yeah, most of our clients who come in are trend driven. They want a full a full with responsive website that looks exactly like, you know, every other startup website, and we have to either tell them that is the right route for you guys or no, you guys were just following the trend. And we have to We have a way better way that to design this for you because I just feel like so many clients have don't they don't think of design as a way to convey information. They think of it as making it pretty just like all these other pretty sites. And there's a time and a place for that, for sure. But I'm personally really interested in making things look good, but also making them extremely informational and functional, making it so that you don't always have to scroll or let the browser school for you for an hour before you can find what you're looking for. So many times there are better ways to lay things out,

and clients just don't realise that. And that's our job is to figure out a better way to toe layout. That information that that they give us that's a really good point along those lines. I remember. Remember Ping board, Rick? We we did. Um I think at the time, our client wanted there that kind of approach in the same way. Like they were looking at some other cross sections of the market. And he said, Okay, well, we're gonna build the marketing page that supports this product. This is how it's gonna be structured. It's gonna be a multi panel,

really long scrolling page. And we did all of this design work, and later, um, we're able to put in a design into the mix that was almost had no content, right? It was like Cem, maybe, And maybe instead of eight panels, it was like one or two, and the result was virtually no scrolling, And it I don't remember the remember Bill talking about it, but he said that the the conversion on it was, like, astronomical, right?

And, you know, I think the original intention was Oh, well, everyone else does this. This is what we should do. Let's spend all this time doing it when you know this other thing, this other, you know, the more, you know, thought full, you know, instead of just following a trend like falling like a design gut feeling that might have actually

did perform better brings up like it. Yeah. Good question. Sorry, Dylan. Uh, one sec. I just wanted to ask you if you guys have ever employed, um, like, user testing or a b testing to sort of, like, get your point across to the client like, Look, here's the, you know, Twitter Bootstrap,

out of the out of the can. Um, you know, Silicon Valley looking Ah, website. Um And then here's our solution, and we think it works better. And here's like the data that this had ever been like, a

way that you've tried to guide or no, um, no, I I just I just try to communicate with the client how I'm feeling and and how it and how I think it could be better. And if they don't listen to me, um, sometimes I'll just go ahead and do it. And if they really hated, I'll redo it. Better to ask for forgiveness than permission, right? Yeah. I mean, I trust I trust my, uh my values in design, and maybe I'm wrong, but But I think a lot of clients well, trust them too, if they're given the opportunity.

Have you ever found that trusting your instincts as a designer has been, in fact, the wrong decision later? Yeah.

Um if you I mean, obviously, we're constantly changing our opinions share. We'd be We'd be We'd be shitty designers if we didn't have the ability to change our minds. But yeah, if you look at lovably is website, if you followed if you followed us back when it was lovably gray two years ago, um, that original website was a full with, ah banner image responsive website that looked like everything else. And I thought it was pretty at the time, and I was new to this. I was I mean, I've been designing websites for a decade. But I was It was still in the honeymoon stage is of all this responsive stuff, and I thought it was great. And I thought,

Oh, I'm selling to clients who obviously are gonna want this and they'll see my website and they'll think, Oh, you know, they have this ability to do exactly what I want And then you can clearly see in 2015 when when my mind changed about that after a year of doing, I think we did like 40 responsive Web Web sites. Um, I mean 40 websites and a shit ton of them were all of those, you know, uh, cookie cutter websites. After a year of doing that for so many clients, I really started to think more about what we're doing and and how much better we could. We could make things if we didn't just blindly follow the trend. And that's when the lovably website changed completely. I spent a long time on that one, Um, making sure that it was something I thought could could last in. I wouldn't have to be redone in a year or five years or 10 years besides tweaks here and there.

Yeah, Um well, it's interesting, because, I mean, I'm This is somewhat been a conversation amongst our team recently as well. Anthony and I were actually just talking about last episode, um, research And how much too lean on it? We call that lean on research as in, like, lean on it to sort of test the boundaries of it, Lean on it to, like, get some data and make a decision on it. But also lean on it as as the as the term lien is in in lean u x you know, like something that's very like quick and,

um, not fatty. But anyway, so the reason I brought that up is because, um, I think that there's certain, you know, a lot of like, I guess you ex designers or whatnot in, You know, the software world that we that we work in, um, tend to be pretty heavy on research and user testing and things like that and the thing that stuff has its place and we need it, and I do not think we should skip it or not do it at all. But, um,

I think that we I think that the industry right now sort of discounts the, um, innate wisdom that a designer can have in making, like, a choice, like their designer for a reason. They are making those choices, and they do need to back him up with, like, ah, good reason. But

yeah, I've never I've never done much user testing or a B testing. Um, maybe it's because I don't do software, but, um, I I just I It's just not something that I feel like we need for, for what we're doing is and it's one of the reasons probably why I'm so driven to branding and packaging and some prints stuff right now, because there's less of that stuff and it just anytime I think of of user user testing. I just think of all the times that I've opened the Twitter app on my phone, and some tiny feature has been different or the blue navigation bars now white and hell pissed off as a user. I was that I was the lab mice in that situation, that I was lab rat in that situation. Um, that's that's my own feeling on it, but obviously I'm not doing software, and I'm sure it's incredibly important for for soft.

Yeah, I think that's a balance. You know, the more I the more that I've been talking to. Rick, the more my opinion this have has been opening up because I think sometimes, especially as a business owner like, it's easy for me to get pressured into thinking about things that might take me away from my values we talked about. We start starting to talk about this in service is is one of those things. Like, you know, sometimes it might be someone on the team or might be a client sort of asking like, Well, what's your approach to use air testing? And, you know,

sometimes you get these ideas in your head and it can take you off path. And and I do think that, you know, for some design. Yes, you know, data does make a big difference, but I'm also relearning how important the craft side of it is because you know, a designer is not really that different than like going to work with the tailor or if you're a fashion designer, right, you're not gonna get the same suit from in a fashion designer hiring that person or that company. You're going to get their perspective on on that thing that's being made, whether it's digital or whether it's a real thing. You know what you're gonna get from IDEO is gonna be a lot different than a you know, freelance industrial designer. And some people have lots of process.

Some operate from the gut, and I think it's important. Also, remember that design, just like any other, just like a lot of other things, is heavily inspired by style. Sure, there's gonna be things that are trending in. Each designer has their own perception of good and simple and utilitarian. All that is, and and it gets more complicated at, you know, as the as the or gets more complicated. But I agree. Dylan,

I think it's really important to stay, stay true to your values and sure, like not, you know, like fun size isn't the perfect fit for every client. Your agency is probably not the perfect fit for every client. How do you deal once you know that someone's not going to, you know, follow your gut reaction, your expertise like How do you How do you do with that? Well, well, for sure. Some. Some clients aren't going Thio aren't going to appreciate that that way of thinking and some are, and you try to educate the ones who don't feel the same way.

And if it doesn't work, um, and you think it's it's really not gonna work out in the long run. You quit. But that doesn't happen very often. Ah, usually you try to make the best of the situation. If you're already on board with the client and they're not understanding the value of your work or the value of your opinions as as the person they hired, then you just try your best to make make something that follows a middle path.

That's true, because I mean the back to just the debate at hand that, um, how, you know, how do we kind of push the boundaries with clients when they're wanting something that is perhaps the boundary? You know, um, I think it's also important to note that, like with design trends like, First of all, I think it's, um I think it's okay if something is, you know, fits into the box of that might be considered trendy, but I think where it becomes, like,

not okay, Um is where you're just doing that without thinking about how that trend necessarily fits on this particular project or for this particular client brand vibe, whatever. And then that's when it becomes kind of a kind of problematic. I actually like, really, you know, uh, from, like, a design perspective, Um, I hear a lot of sort of negative talk about, um, you know, designer social media sites like B.

Hanson dribble and stuff. And I just you know, I'm not necessarily on that page because I I love seeing that stuff. It's not going thio inform, like every design decision that I make. But when certain patterns like you see them over and over again, um, I think that they are sometimes it's because they're working Well, um and so I think it's okay to employ things that, um I mean, like, for a user like predictability is so huge just what you said Dylan about the Twitter thing. Like people don't like when they feel at home with a product or, ah, design or whatever, you know,

like they don't want it to change and they want it to be the same, and that that goes back to the concept of like predictability. So like for user's like predictability is is really good. Um, but if we're just throwing these these simple patterns here and don't actually solve the problem like in a specific way, then I think that's where it's not great. There's also the concept of just like doing interesting work.

I love what you're saying. Um, you know, the, uh, patterns are great, you know, like there's proven patterns like, you know, if you're building an e commerce site, there are patterns that if you follow, are gonna work right. But, you know, that doesn't mean that everything should be the same. You know, Greg Story wrote,

Have it pulled up right now. Greg Story wrote this interesting article, A year to go called and they all look the same. And he's talking about Web design specifically, as the contrast between, you know, the nineties and earlytwo thousands versus where we are right now. We become so pattern driven and framework driven that it is really hard to find anything that's unique versus like a playground for, you know, applying graphic design to the Web, which is really fun, and then in the 90 sort of hacking those things together and being able to put your own flavor brand to it. Now it seems so. It's so easy to get started, you know, crank up in that framework.

They've already solved a few things for you. The goods, you know, all that sort of stuff there paying your carousel, you're done. There's something to be said for for design ideas that work. And I do think that that that cookie cutter website designed that we've been talking about a lot that does work in some situations, but it doesn't work in all situations, and that's where I have the problem exactly. Um, and and also, even if you are going to go that route, there's There's just so much emotion and character that a designer can put into their work, even if they are following some some kind of basic guidelines. And and sometimes people just don't put the don't put the effort in. I definitely do that

definitely agree with that, like that sort of means, like you can kind of just turn your brain off and just pump out these frameworks and, like, say, Here's your website Where's my check? You know, But uh, that's not I mean, being, Ah, creative professional designer, uh, software designer or somebody does, like, you know, Web Web sites and whatnot.

I think we're in this business because we like to create and be satisfied by seeing our work come to life and having things that are uniquely, you know, uni unique and uniquely different. It's hard because we're all in a business that employees aesthetic because it needs aesthetic, because aesthetic helps with conversion. It makes things, um, the sell better, quite frankly. And then, um, you also have to have, like, a business portion where you're getting a return on your investment for the money that you're spending on that aesthetic. So it's always going to be a pushing poll on Where's the line between How innovative can I make this product Or, you know,

um, thing that I'm working on, Uh, and how, like at what point? Doesn't need to like, Okay, were we need to think about budget or we need to think about this or that. You know, we're always going to be faced with that issue.

Yeah, I think in that hole on boarding phase where we started one of the most key things for me to glean out of that is okay, Well, understanding that, you know, is the client has a limited amount of money, and they only have a, you know, a couple of weeks to, you know, add some value. Okay, well, we don't want to rethink the will. The goal would be to use their framework and make it incrementally better. However, if that client has a limited amount of the same limited amount of money,

But they need to completely change the game, then the obvious choices, too. But, you know, you know, Push. And I think that, um I think sometimes teams, um, forget about the, you know, thinking. Asking the right questions about where the client is with their limitations are Do you guys typically Bill by the hour? We don't. We build by a team per month,

and that's broken down into two week adoration. So when we first started, people would hire us usually for 369 months at a time. And as we've grown, we realize that we need to find ways to attack problems and shorter periods of time. So we started employing a, you know, ad hoc two week adoration so someone could hire us now as short as two weeks. So which is it? It's a fixed cost for that team effort for that time frame. Interesting. Yeah, I I do fixed costs to I I've thought a lot about this since I started, and it just seems like nobody in their right mind would want to build by the hour and which is funny because a lot of designers D'oh! But But if you think about it from the perspective of the client, how shitty is that?

Seriously, Yeah. To not know what you're gonna be paying, uh, and and to not know exactly what you're going to get out of it. It just as a customer who's never hired a designer, I would feel like crap. I think we could do

something like that. Yeah. I mean, I agree our least not the way to go. I think it's more like if that's your mentality, like if you're sitting there staring at your screen, thinking about something or you know, or if you're having a super productive like our like, how are those two hours different? You know, we started in the same thing Yeah, And as the designer, Why

Why do you want to think about time tracking? It's not fun. I have software that helps I pay for software. That helps me time track for the occasional short projects. Where does make sense to do that? It's not fun. I always forget about the timer. Yeah, it's

Ah, go back and make something

up or something. This is something that we, you know, we tackled pretty early on in one of our earlier episodes. I mean, once we got the team together, we realized pretty quickly. Okay, this is fundamentally broken because it's hard enough when you're just one person trying detect track time. Now imagine 12 people tracking time. How much like how accurate is that gonna be? 50%. 40% You. And another thing is especially with with logo design. I find this, if you will by the hour. And I have had a few logo projects who are small enough that they want to be built by the hour.

Um, which I would not recommend. Anyway, Um, you're you're thinking you put so much thought into this, and sometimes you end up with a logo that's just a typeface. And that's what's right for that client and for that project and they'll and they'll look at the time and they'll be like, 10 hours. How did that happen? Well, because I went through all of these other iterations that I didn't show you because I came up with the right one. And that's what I'm showing you. Yeah, and and they think I could have gone into Microsoft Word and done that. And we all know that they they couldn't have it would have looked like word art. But are you guys familiar with the Polish here?

The famous Polish air quote about the Citibank logo? No, no, uh, I'm not gonna is probably not gonna be 100% accurate, but the story goes that she's in one of the first meetings with Citibank. You know, when the umbrella logo, right? Would like the little line of the little and she hands them a napkin drawing with this logo, and she says, this is your logo, right? This is Oh, I did hear that. Yeah,

and they ended up going with that. But then they were, you know. Then there was some debate with I guess pentagram like, Why? Why would we pay a $1,000,000 for this when she said, Well, it took a lifetime for me to learn how to do that

in an hour. Hey, this brings it back full circle because that's that is kind of what I'm saying about, like designers trusting like the decisions that they're making. Like you're not just making that decision in like a five second time that that's not all that's going into you've built like your like design sensibility, your taste like, Oh, throughout your lifetime, right? That's that's That's awesome. I've never heard that story, but that's kind of what I'm trying to say.

Yeah, and that's not to mention that even when you're finished working on something for that day, if you're if you're invested in your work, which hopefully you are, you're gonna be thinking about that when you're cooking dinner, you're gonna be thinking about that when you are taking a piss and when you're in the shower, you're gonna be thinking about that all the time. And if you're not, then you're not invested in, and you're not doing the best job you can be, and you're not going to track your time when you're taking a piss. Because oh, I was also thinking of this logo, because what are you gonna tell your client? I was I was I was taking a piss, and I thought I was thinking about this logo, and that's why.

And that's why I billed you for an extra 30 seconds right there. You just you don't wanna have to do that. And you also the The reaction on the client side is similar to probably how I feel Every time I think about sending my lawyer and email, I have something I'm thinking about. It might be really fun, like some new program to create. My first thought is Oh, my God, He's charging me by the hour. I wonder how many hours he's gonna spend on this like, is my bill gonna be $1000? They're gonna be a 20 bucks like yeah, Exactly. Yeah, And that's not the experience of my clients to have. And and on my side,

it's not the experience I wanna have, because I come from this music background where I get to work on things that things that I care about and thinks that I'm invested in for hours, and and I obviously with business, you do have to think a little bit more about how much time you're investing. But for such a creative process, you don't You don't wanna have to any more than you. Then you should, um, and And if you're if you're billing by the hour, it's That's all you're gonna be thinking about.

I think that's right. Yeah, that's that's that's way too

well. Dylan, do you have any, um, any tips for those out there that might be in the early stages of starting their business and and and then into to wrap it up? Maybe you could let everyone know how they can find you on the interwebs and on Twitter and and learn about your music. Um, my tip is just do what you think is right. Just just do what you think is right. Um, if you're wrong, worst comes to worst. You redo it, or someone else read, Does it design? Any design is not gonna last forever. But you can try your best to to make something that is long lasting that you think has value and and obviously you're gonna have to follow some some trends.

Uh, probably pretty often, but just try to do what you think is right. Well said, Well said, Well, if you're wrong, it's not the end of the world. Do you

change your mind? Design is never done. Where can people like looking up online Twitter and whatnot?

This is my least favorite part of podcast, cause it's always you can find me at, um, say something different than Twitter. Give out your phone

number. Don't follow the design trend of saying you can find me at

4358664375 Boom. There's no no, no. I feel very bad for the random number for whoever

owns that random number you didn't give me.

No, that is not my real twitter eyes at Dillon Seeger. Nice. Um, if you don't know how to spell that Go look at the show notes,

I assume? Sure. Yeah, Well, have you will have a

link. Okay. And, um, my personal website is doing Seeger dot com, which has links toe all the stuff. I do. Um, and the studio is lovably dot com. Cool. Man, check out his music. Grab it. It's good.

Yeah, look for a nap featuring Dylan's music coming to the app store. Um, sometime one day, one day e.

I don't even know what I submitted to that. I'm pretty sure it was a few Ambien tracks.

It was nice. It was perfect for what

we needed. Thanks for doing that too. Yeah, no problem. Don't. We didn't We didn't get to talk at all about streaming music. I have so much to yell about.

Streaming music. This is a rant. I've rented enough. So if they want to hear more ranting follow you on Twitter? Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Sounds good. Dylan,

Thanks for taking time out of your schedule. Thio chat with this. This

is awesome. I look forward to catching up with you soon. Appreciate it. Yes, I'm here. Thanks for Thanks for inviting me. This episode is brought to you by the Iron Yard. Theo. Iron Yard in Austin is now offering a 12 week intensive program user interface design. Theon yard will teach you the tools and skills you need to become a professional interface designer and then help you find a job. If you're interested in launching a new career in tech and design visit their website. The iron dot com scholarships are available for the summer semester were user interface design at the Iron Yard. Life's too short for the wrong career. Hustle is brought to you by fun sized digital Product design agency in Austin, Texas, that creates delightful, innovative products for mobile Web and visit us on Twitter at fun size or visit our website of fun sized echo.