party. Whoa! Okay, welcome. This is a hustle podcast by fun sized about mobile product design. I'm your host, Rick Messer. Products on our fun size. I'm also joined by Danielle Moser, project manager at Fun Size, and Jordan Walker. Hi. Also Project Manager Fun Size. Today's episode, sponsored by bench bench, pairs you with a dedicated professional bookkeeper who manages your books for you. If you're looking for help with your books,

check out bench dot Co. That's bench dot ceo. So getting into most of us at fun size our designers. But we also have project managers who help us iron out requirements, stay on schedule and ensure the work is actually meeting the mark for our clients and users. Our guest plural guests today are Daniel Moser and Jordan Walker, who I just already introduced. But guys, welcome to the show. And please tell me a little bit about

who you are. Let's start with you, Daniel. Um cool. Yeah. Hey, leg. Rick said I'm Danielle. I like to be introduced three times. I requested that specifically, So that's why he did it. And, uh let's see. I am the part. I am a project manager, not the well, I haven't been here for,

like, a few months, so I Yeah, I'm still getting used to that, but I'm really happy about it. Um, I'm a project manager for fun size, and, um, I would argue that it is possibly the best job in the world. Really? Yeah. I mean, I think just working for fun size has probably been my greatest job experience ever. I've had I've had a lot of okay ones. I've had a lot of terrible ones. Um, and I've had a lot of nice ones, but fun size has been the most building products with talented people and talented friends has been the most rewarding.

Hey, it's in the name with the name like packers. That's right in there. How can it

not be getting It's got its true. Yeah, but I mean, I don't I don't get too smart me about it. Um I mean, you know, we is. It's It's not all all butterflies and rainbows, but it is sure is a damn good time. So

they have a damn good time. Jordan, how about you? Um, so I'm the newer project manager that made Danielle a

and not the the, um

And you know, as far as all that I agree. Fun size is fantastic. Uh oh. I came here for a reason, and that's Yeah, that's why, but we're not talking about that. I don't know, but yeah. What about what about you, Jordan? Where from? Whence Do you hail location? No, just tell me like, uh,

that was the weirdest question ever and phrasing. But tell me, Tell me. Break came from. And I guess you know why. Why'd you even come here, man? Why did you Why do you want to be a project manager? And I don't think anyone wants to become a project manager. It's one of those things where you just kind of is like, I could do that. You fall into it, and then you realize if you're if you can do it or not, and then you continue doing it. So

it's one of those things I think anything That's a perfect explanation for sort of how even I got into it like you just kind of stumble and trip your way through it. And eventually you find sort of a rhythm that works for your teams. Um, yeah, I don't want to get too far into? No, that's okay. Yeah.

No, that's OK. That's absolutely Okay. Um

So

what I wanted to cover with with you guys today is like we have, You know, there's there's designers and we're trying todo we're all on the same team trying with it with the clients trying thio create ah product and ship it out and get some feedback from users and keep iterating on it, you know? And you guys were just like this super important key part of it that actually make sure and sort of realigns us as we g o to make sure that we're sort of focusing on that. So you have sort of like to focus, focus points in what you manage. I mean, aside from just the project itself and making sure that we're on time line and all that. But you also have to interface with the designers. You're reviewing work. You know our work regularly with us. I mean, every day on your in the meetings with the clients as well. And then you're also interfacing with the clients so that the designers can kind of focus on design sometimes. And I thank you cordially for that. But I sometimes wonder what it's like dealing with the temperament of a designer.

I mean, what is it like working around us designers? Are we, in fact, all just whiny bitches?

I don't think that's true. It all one because I I would never call you guys that to your face. No, no, no, no. I never went. Ah, I do, I I'll be honest. I like to get together with other P m people and just be like, uh, managing creatives, right? Wrangling cats right so hard, you know, But,

I mean, I I think we're pretty fortunate in that. Um, at least the designers that I have experienced, especially her fun size, are just really good about kind of having that empathy for for what the client wants. You know what the user needs on what the project manager is trying to do. You guys, you guys never intentionally trying to make any of these drugs heart

A. I mean, it's true, you know, like, yeah, it's all pretty normal here coming from tech before, during project management with Debs. That's your interfacing with engineers. That Yeah, that's

actually another one you interface with tears

in their just. Yeah, it's a whole other type of Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Daniel, I've noticed that working with you there's times where you will challenge me and the other designers, like air. You sure that's what we should be doing right now? You know, just like in terms of what feature you're working on or just like the actual, like, execution of it. So I feel that you challenged, but I also feel that you sort of no wind to like. Okay,

we just need to let the we need to let the designer sort of, like, run with this and, like, finish your thought, like, you know, make a full case for it. So I'm telling you, you have, like, a natural a good natural balance with that. And Jordan, I'm sure you do too. But I you know, you're you're new here,

and we haven't. I just wanted to hear if you had anything to say about that Danielle, Like, um, how do you kind of judge on when to push and when to

back off things? God are You just paid me a huge compliment. I would not say that. I know when to challenge, I would say, Um, I I feel when to challenge when ah flags sent off. And I'm still very much learning when to challenge with every new situation that comes up every new feature we have to build, Um, it's it's kind of a different challenge we're facing each time. Ah, different. A different puzzle. We're trying to put together um, and braked or break down. Ah, so um yeah,

it's very as much as it's a learning process for the designer to kind of figure out how to how to build a new feature. It's a learning process for me to figure out when to challenge that designer to push that a little bit further. Or Thio collaborate with another designer to think a little bit deeper about this issue on Consider more users in these cases. Okay, that's

I mean, that's good. I think that's a good answer. It's actually interesting because we just recorded UNEP Isolde recently what That will be coming out pretty soon with Adam Saints, and he was sort of, you know, we can't something sort of surfaced when thinking about what a designer is and and all that because he said something like, Don't just, you know, it's not just that you're your designer, and so you're right by Fiat, like I am a designer. So therefore, you know, I think that is unintentionally. Sometimes the designers like inclination, you know,

like don't challenge me. I'm a designer. I know what I'm

doing, but it's not, You know, we definitely need it. Sometimes. Even if we sort of across the board, whether it's Dev's or designers, it comes down to the different personalities. Yeah, so it's all communication, and you have to learn who's who and how they react. I gotta thinkit's specifically hard with creative professionals because it's not always something that can be exactly evaluated its aesthetics. It's creativity. And like if you tell somebody that there even if their design is good, it's not hitting the mark. It's sort of like a personal It feels more personal than like, Oh,

you typed this paper wronger. That might be a terrible Yeah, there's an ego involved. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe there isn't that much of a difference, right? I mean, it's your work. So it's your works. Yeah. I mean, different personalities are attracted to each one for different reasons. but, uh,

yeah, it's probably very similar. So can, uh, contrast ing that dealing with designers and positions dealing, working

with designers, putting up with working

with designers. How does that compare with working with clients? Is they're very similar hurdles to overcome and problems to solve? Or is it Is

it the same or is it different? You know? Yeah, it's very different. I mean, one is input. One is output. You know, designers or creative output. Uh, clients are the technical input. They tell you what the business school's your design needs to solve. Um, or sometimes they don't even come with that. Sometimes they just have this lake. We know we need to have users sign in and have authorization somehow tell us. You tell us what there's been much older,

right? Yeah. So So so sometimes were business strategists, and sometimes designers are, you know, building their own requirements. And that's always really it's actually really exciting for a client who places that kind of faith in you. Um, we don't put restraints on clients that they need to have X, y and Z for us. We are That's the beauty of fences. Were client partners So if you don't have X, Y and Z figured out, get in a room with us and let us, you know, we want to figure that out with you. And it's it's exciting as a project manager to be the one that gets to facilitate that sometimes,

yeah, it's sort of interesting, right, because a project manager at an agency like fun size is very unique. I feel like in that our clients, the people that were working with are often times probably more often than not, product managers. So there is an aspect of your job that ISS, like actually doing a bit of product management itself. You are helping us sort of refined requirements with the client with work on features. So you get that, like, you know, sense of invention creatively, I think, and we have like a really tough U ex problem. We always bring PM's with us if we can into the white boarding sessions as well.

Um, so a huge like like hovering conversation that a T least Anthony and I have been having, and some of some of it on this podcast is should a designer, ah, product designer be a product manager as well. This has come up in like the like in envisioned episode we did with Clark Wahlberg, the founder. He was saying that basically all of his designers are very specific, you know, people that are suited very well with product design, but they're also also product managers. And, um, Anthony, I think, is very Anthony's that for those of you who don't don't know,

Anthony is the founder and CEO of fun sizing, he seems to think that yes, in fact, it is possible. And in a recent episode with Adam saying, he said that in fact, product designers are probably the most well suited for that, and I see the point. But at the same time, I guess I'm just not totally sold, You know, I wanted to hear yet yells Perspective. It's possible, just like it's possible for any other type of. But is it a good idea? Well,

that's the thing that splits off. Everyone's gonna have a 1,000,000 opinions. I don't think personally it's the greatest of ideas because the separation is kind of nice to have that sort of shut your brain off from certain activities and focus on ah, other tasks totally. I find that I'm, you know, not able to do that sometimes. So I, you know, it's it's great, you know, my background. I was a freelancer, and then I was a product designer at a very small startup where we didn't have anyone running any kind of, you know, tracking,

you know, making sure things were on at least overseeing me as Theo, only designer on the on the team. And so I felt, you know, a bit of stress to manage myself in that way. What? Although we did have a very awesome, like, agile sprint that we continue to work through, But yeah, I kind of wish there there was more of, like a product manager in that situation. And since I've been working with fun size, I've gotten the opportunity to have have, you know,

project management, because it's great to I sort of compartmentalized the focus on design and aesthetic and u x and just the overall experience. You know, we're just trying thio like design a thing, you know, and I can't imagine having to do both. Like Danielle and I both have design experience, obviously not as much as the designers and Daniel, you do some designing. I can't imagine having to design and then also manage projects. Yeah, So this is something. Okay, So maybe maybe it's more like this, right? Because Anthony,

he's actually typing notes on our outline as we're going through this and we're talking about the nature of having t shaped skills. And that's something we talked about in a recent episode two where it's like You can sort of, like, have, like, you know, and you should have a lot like a look and opinions on the landscape of everything that has to do with the product, the features, thehe aesthetic, the overall experience. You know how many features there are and like, you know, and even down to like, the nitty gritty stuff about you I and things like the animation, the iconography and just you know how things occur on the experience that you should have it. But being T shape means that you kind of go out in a shallow way around all of these things.

But then you have one sort of specialty that goes deep. And, you know, I think that is kind of a really good answer. And I think That's something that we're trying to, you know, work into the way we work with client. Everyone should know the processes of every role at any company. But like, that would

be nice. Yeah, you

should have a general understanding. Yeah, but you're obviously not gonna specialize in

everything, right? I think I think more so than project management, which I definitely think designers should have an idea of how that works so that I could take a sick day. Um, her vacation. Um, I think more so than that, it's going to become important for designers to start to have more knowledge of development that probably gets into a different episode and different topic because it's a it's a

good point. But like I feel like my brain is like getting full of, like, these skills you know, into poor focus into something like learning swift or

something. I'm going to drain out and you've

been sharpening other skills design skills to make that very good. Yes, so you could get into development. But with all the amount of time you put forth, and it's such a bigger like, I just feel like it's such a bigger barrier to break through to actually be, like effect good developing something than it is to do a lot of other things designed, maybe one of them, because you can learn really quickly. How Thio just a layer style in photo shop. But do you actually get an environment up and running in development situation like on a you know, Web app? Or are there so many aspects side stuff? There's a 1,000,000 things, and it's not the easiest to wrap your head around, and I will go back and say something that we've talked about before, which is,

I wish, wish, wish that there was a air quotes here, front and development for mobile application designed because there is not. If somebody there's a 1,000,000 tools out there about, you know, make this animation with this platform and then it you do it. You spend all this time learning is tool, and then you turn around. You have code that is not useful to an actual eyeless developer. That whole thing is missing. And whereas if we're is a Web situation, you know, speak can learn. Html CSS. It's not too.

It's not really that daunting on. Then you can turn over something that is useful. Thio back in developer. But they're just like that does not exist for mobile development. You know, we're still looking for and we've seen a couple of things that seem like kind of interesting. Like, what is that one? One of the more recent ones that actually, like, puts like an app on your phone? Jim was using it. I think I'm forgetting the fluid. No, not

fluid. There is Pick. Save.

Yeah, that was it. Yeah. And I guess they're working on the point where you can actually export the code two. Um, that's cool. That's also gonna piss off

i e. I

don't know. There's There's some developers that are very well suited for doing front end sort of stuff and by front, And I just mean stuff that people actually are. You know, the the code that is actually affecting the U I transitions, animations, coding, graphics like a big square. You don't need a graphic for that. You just coated, you know, like there's definitely developers that are very well suited for that. But then there's other developers that are way more focused and inefficient on the back end that I don't really want to answer the question of How long does it take for this animation to occur? And they would rather somebody just give him some code that they could plug in so they can check that off their list and get on the next thing like that. You know, man, I don't know. It's totally my fault, guys, a good tan. It was

definitely my my point there, just with with starting the development engine is that I think so. This branch off of the question. Should designers in Project I think everybody who builds a product together should know something about the other person's language? Like I speak project management lingo and you guys roll your eyes when I use the the jargon the PM jargon Fight it, Please don't have an example. Get charts. Yeah, like a timetable or term. I mean, sometimes sometimes I just say the word meeting and I hear everybody's eyes roll, you know? So, um, but I mean UN may be gaining more understanding of, you know, I don't play in meetings to take away from your design timer to piss you off.

I want them to be fast and open communication. Yeah. Yeah, so I mean, I know I know coming to meetings that fun, but, like, what makes the meetings go faster is when every building doughnuts Oh, wow. And tacos, tacos, donuts, tacos. And when everybody kind of gets involved with the problem at hand, you know, even if you're not thrilled to be there,

just like digging your hands in, You know, we could be out of there in half an hour. If we solve the problem no faster, you know? So, um yeah, and then you know, just same thing with developers. Even if we can't write a line of code just really trying to get down on their level,

it's just all so much. I just feel like the the end result is always so much better If everybody sort of has, like that transparency and like, care, like not lobbying things over the fence. Like, I see that this is a lot of work for you and, you know, just just I guess it's respect, right?

Yeah. General respect. It's probably the best for any situation that might be something. I think

there's like some rulers, like if it's under, like, seven seconds of a song. Another podcast Laws i e. It's all were out like a charted somewhere. Nobody knows Tina Turner.

Yeah, she monitors she's

having on the monitors. This is something I have no idea what you're talking about. Way. Okay, well, what? We are out of time for now. But guys, thanks very much for giving me your time today. I know I grabbed you guys pretty unexpectedly for this episode, but thank you very much. It was very, very helpful. It's like therapy for me, kind of to work through this and ask those questions to myself. But, uh, yeah, just as a sign off. Danielle, how could people follow use at a Twitter situation

are I do have a situation on Twitter. I am at Danielle Moser. It's just my name. No spaces. All of your cases. Yeah.

Jordan, Um, at J Marco Welker. I'll start calling you J mo. That's why. No, that's my middle name. Now everybody knows all is revealed.

Hey, what's your twitter handle?

Oh, and mine is at Rick Messer. Surprisingly

Hey, you're like me. You have is just the first name. I don't know why I know you're You're almost close.

I don't know why I never got on the thing where you, like, made up like, uh,

knew me like a screening. Yeah. Somebody

told me like

they're like Like I'm cereal bear 42 you like why? There's a certain age ceiling, I think. Yeah, I hit bad. It was like a year, year and 1/2 ago, I switched to my actual name. I found it was open. Otherwise, you're 37 then you're saying cereal Hey, hey. Just D Emmett Cereal better.

Okay, thanks very much. Request topics and just respond to this episode by tweeting to you at fun size on Twitter. Rate the hustle podcast on iTunes and subscribe

and sorry at serial Sorry. Oh, man, we major league. But you know there is.

All right. Today's episode is sponsored by Ben Shot Co. Let's face it, bookkeeping is never fun, but it's something you can't escape. Benches. The online bookkeeping service that does your bookkeeping for you. When you sign up the bench, you're paired with your own dedicated human bookkeeper, and you collaborate with the bookkeeper using the bench app. It's everything you need to cross bookkeeping off your list forever. If bookkeeping is taking too much of your time and you just want done. Check out www dot bench dot c. Oh, that's bench dot They've got you covered. Hustle is brought to you by Fun Sized, a digital product design agency in Austin,

Texas, that creates delightful, innovative products for mobile web and beyond. Visit us on Twitter at fun size or visit our website of fun sized co. All right, let's see. This is mine. Daniel, give me a level.

I will give you a level. Can you hear me now?

Yeah, I'm gonna turn you up

and I'm singing it. Somebody bring me some hair.

Jordan, Your turn. Hello. I'm not going to sing 30 Rock was

becoming walls. That's the greatest. When's that podcast? One's a 30 rock.