Welcome back to the house. The podcast today I'm here with my colleague and my friend Thomas. You're Thomas is a designer at fun size. Thanks for staying a little bit later to record this episode. Yeah, of course. Why don't you take a minute, Thio, Introduce yourself.

Okay. So I'm Thomas. I've been with fun size for, I think, close to seven months now. It was a three month apprenticeship, and then I was brought on full time, and, uh, yeah, that's pretty much it. I mean, I'm a pug. Dad could go into some more specific things. I'm in Austin local, which was a shock to me to find out that that's a very rare thing these days to find. And, um, I'm very new to the design world.

Well, you're an awesome local that moved back toe Austin after living in Norway so that they

have a little bit different. Yes, that's true. I guess I did lose my Texas nous when I was becoming a Viking for two years.

So why don't you tell us a little bit more about your journey to becoming a designer?

Yeah. So I've got a very odd and colorful background because there wasn't any really definite paths in my career where I felt like I was doing the right thing for the longest time. And just to, you know, take a step back. I My, like, biggest part of my past, was in the music industry where I spent a lot of time making music and deejaying and toward for a little bit. And that was I mean, really fine. And, you know, I met a lot of great people and learned a lot of important life skills throughout that journey. And, you know, I'm honestly grateful looking back that I didn't go the traditional college route because I feel like I would have a totally different view on the world if I had done so,

because it kind of forced me into that rough situation of, like, you know, not having parents wanting to help you out in any way. So having to get a second job to support that music career when touring wasn't going well and, you know, just like just getting really, really into life really quickly after high school. So I learned a lot of, you know, important life lessons and basically just kept trying to go down the path that I thought was the right path for me. Unfortunately, I found out the music industry wasn't the right thing for me. I started doing some accounting for awhile, which even more so wasn't the right thing for me. And I ended up moving to Norway to move out there for a girl that I slid into her dams on Instagram.

And they heard about that. Yeah, and, ah, modern love story. And I was out there for two years. And that was actually really nice from my mind, I think, because it it gave me a lot of freedom to figure out

what I wanted to do

with my life. And, you know, it was like I even though I hated doing the accounting work, I was really busting my ass at it and trying to do the best I could. But it just wasn't something I was enjoying. And I realized that my life was gravitating towards any type of creative work, no matter what it was. And, well, I was out in Norway. I was, you know, teaching myself how to at it videos and stuff like that, because I was really drawn towards like editing and directing music videos and thought that would be a fun thing to pursue. And I still would like to do things like that on the side. And I think I've always found myself reaching for creative side projects and

stuff like that. And so what was it that sparked the interest in getting into digital product design?

Yeah, eso I want my wife and I moved back to Austin because, like Norway is, you know, a bit rougher than it seems and expensive. Yes, it's very expensive to live there especially, you know, not having the best job at the time there. So moving back, I had a friend who was going to General Assembly here for coding, and I talked to him and he was like, You know, I know you had looked at it before and he was like, You ex design Sounds like something you would rule, like, really enjoy,

because you're creative and you're like problem solving and things like that. So I looked into it for some time, did a lot of research, you know, because again, General Assembly isn't the cheapest course to take on the whim, and I wanted to make sure that it was something I would enjoy. And after looking into it, it was It was weird that I didn't understand that there was a certain job for this. You know that people for a living, we're designing the zaps. It wasn't just someone building it out of nowhere. And a soon as I started looking into it, I even from the first project I did, which I did all in photo shop, which I'm kind of glad I did,

because it was fun trying to design a nap inside of photo shop. Since that is, you know how you all used to do it back in the day, right? Mmm Mmm. So that that was a fun experiment.

And then, I mean, I remember when I mean Photoshopped kind of ruled that it ruled the world forever. I mean, there were there were other tools that were that had a lot of potential, like fireworks. They could do vector design, do, like, automate things really fast, But like photo shop was the standard for a while. Remember when Jim and our team, when he joined this is how years ago I mean years and years ago, he said. Well, I think we should use sketch and we were like, Well,

no one's really using that But then it's it quickly became like, like, just sort of cannibalize the whole industry. And now that's happening with Sigma, which we're gonna talk about a little bit. Yeah, but it's funny how fast

things change. Yeah, it's crazy. And, ah, I mean, even then, like is Soon as I got accepted into General Assembly's program, they were like, Oh, yeah, sketches the thing. And I was like, Why did I just try to do that all within photo shop? You know? And so that was the first step I had into product design in that realm, and I then started seeing all these ties in my background where I was like,

Oh, wow, I've been designing album art for myself and my friends for a long time, and I've been a huge video game nerd, and I've always designed my own signatures on the forms and everything. So I just It was stuff that I ignored that I enjoyed in my past, that I never was like, Oh, I could probably, you know, enjoy a career out

of this? Yeah. I mean, General Assembly is great. We are. We've hired many people from General Assembly. We've been lucky, toe. You know, I meet a lot of people that work with us today from General Assembly. Specifically, I'm curious. We don't have to talk too long. I'm just curious question for you. What made you decide to invest into going to a Nintendo? A program like that in spending money versus just finding an apprenticeship from the get go? Yeah, you're

really curious. For me, it was more about establishing basics before going into something completely blind. I felt like if I would have at that point try to reach out for apprenticeships one, there wouldn't have been enough like background for me and, uh, to like, they're just wanted to have been work. I I think General Assembly is so successful because they give you projects that you could turn into case studies and show off. Your ability is whether it's

researcher. That's that's absolutely Yeah, so But we met what, almost a year ago?

Get close. He was last night.

And so you went through the apprentice program. We can probably talk about a lot of the specific clients of projects. But maybe you could tell listeners a little bit about the types of things we've been working on in your first year of being a designer.

Yeah, so I've been fortunate enough to actually be hands on with all sorts of different clients, and it's been massive to me. There's like no way I could have learned the amount of stuff I've learned without that ability because I've been able to. One of the first projects I had been helping out with when I started here was, you know, one of those bigger internal teams and it was more of, ah, traditional product design role where it was just, you know, trying to get production along with things. So it was interesting seeing and interacting with clients on that level, you know, like a massive scale. And I've I'm recently now on ah, local startup projects. You know,

when it's it's so crazy to be a part of a team that you know, as soon as I am done designing something, the developers air pushing it out and it's live and I The next day I go into the office. They're like, Oh, hey, check this out. We built it so in the end does.

And that's exciting to me, too, Like on another level than a typical project, because the project you're working on it were investors in. So like we have like, you know, we have a really tiny, tiny, tiny timing stake in their business. But we have our line on the mission and tryto and try to do that. We can talk about that, and that's called Hitch and it's right, it's Ah ah, it's Ah, it's right, right Sharing essentially between Austin and Major city centres like Dallas and Houston. You're traveling to those places from Austin or too awesome in those places.

Check out, bitch. Okay, so I don't know what was, But I remember early it was during your apprenticeship, we realized that you were organizing the Austin Figure Media, which was super proud of because it felt very special to me to be working with some who someone who, outside of fun size, was already like connecting himself with this community. And, you know, being a leader in that community, I think it's really awesome. Why don't you told that's a little bit about Well, okay, A lot of people listen to the show,

not just designers. A lot of you know, business people are aspiring business people, product managers, engineers. Listen to this. What's the real quick brief on Sigma? Why do you think it's special? And why did you decide to co organize the meet up? Tell me about your co organizer and like what you guys are trying to achieve with that.

Okay? Yes. Oh, just like a quick way to explain Fig Mose. You know it's the design too old. That's collaborative. And I I think that they're massively successful because you can look a collaboration in many different ways rather than just like designer to designer. Because at the end of the day, you know, a lot of people talk about, you know, every design tools, just another design tool. You should be able to use all of them. But I believe with collaboration and allowing other people to come into it, it becomes wildly successful, you know,

and, uh, I don't know why, but I feel like I've always been so attached to that, like, no matter what it is that, like shiny new thing and for me going through General Assembly and hearing about figment. That was the shiny new thing at the moment. And at the time, you know, like when you're inside General Assembly, they're really pushing you, too. Go and do all this networking. And so I was so used to going to meet ups after meet ups and I was, like,

really interested in learning more about fig MMA that I looked into it and there just wasn't a fig maust. And I just tweeted out surprising. Yeah, I tweeted at FIG. My design. I was like, Hey, any plans on having any meet ups here and then someone for them? Fig mud tweeted me back and was like, Hey, you wanna have a quick chat? Like, you know, we haven't really had anything yet. Are you interested in starting it? And I,

um you know, I had ah voice call with Thomas Lowry, who's a designer at Fig Maya and, you know, told him my backstory and my whole spiel on everything. And I told him how I would like love to be able to give back to the community, you know? And I think that was the most important thing for me is like even now, after General Assembly, I love going back to General Assembly and talking to new kids.

And when you do that, yeah, all the time. Tell me more about that. Yeah,

Um, so, like my my two teachers there? Well, I had three, but there are two left, and they'll reach out to me all the time, and they'll have me come do like a panel with some other graduates from General Assembly. And people at the cohort can ask us questions and stuff like that. And I've I've always told Erin who is the career coach there that, you know, let people connect with me on LinkedIn, whatever you want. Like, I love being able to be, like, this glimpse of,

like, hope, but like giving them like a firm direction, because I know things can always be kind of confusing and misleading sometimes in those situations. And, you know, for me there was someone else at the I saw a graduate who had had a job, and I met Britney here. You

know, it was that who that was Britney that you met in a similar capacity?

Well, no, she didn't go to a panel or anything, but I met her through her. Her stuff with creative mornings, right? You know, and still like being able to meet these people that had gone through what you were going through. And it's like, you know, a very rigorous process. You and, uh, it's just, like, really hopeful. And so I love being able to be that.

And I was like, what other better way to do that And because I I truly am so obsessed with figment that I was like, This is perfect for me. Like I could talk about fig Model day even though it's, you know, a designed to at the end of the day. So for me, that was the biggest thing, really, was

just giving back, man, that's really awesome. I don't actually, I didn't I didn't know that you did that. And I think that's really incredible that you do that. I'm not able to attend these meet ups because I have a baby like now. And so I have to leave and go home. But I know I kind of live vicariously through what people are saying. And I saw, uh, well saw brief overview about some of the stuff you were talking about in the last figure. Amita, can you set that up? Like what was that? What was the topic of the most recent?

Yeah, So just just the echo. What I was saying before the specific topic we had was collaboration with Sigma and how that reaches further than just designer to designer collaboration.

So you talked about something that Dylan figment CEO said aboutthe stages of design And how that sort of, uh, how that correlates to like their mission, like, can you? What's the brief on them?

Yeah, s o to Dylan. He he thinks that there's three stages of design and he said that the first stage is misunderstanding. So that's the stage where, like, an organization has designers, but they don't see the true potential of design their, you know, still a bit confused at what design is. And then the second stage is, you know, the organization is slowly starting to adapt to this, and they have designers sitting in on meetings and design is starting to influence decisions. And then the third stage is that everyone sees how pivotal design is for a company. So everyone wants to sit in at the design table, and it's really awesome to hear the CEO of Ah you know, company like this talk about collaboration in that way because it's almost as if he was planning on figure of being this way all along.

You know, the way you can just sin links left and right. People don't have to have accounts to access it. It's, you know, during the conversation or the meet up. I talked a lot about how it's awesome to see so many different projects where people are so quick to jump on figment because it's such an easy access point. And, you know, people can leave comments left and right. And even if people don't understand how to design, well, they understand that they can just, like, take simple shapes. And so if they can't draw well,

they can just put these, you know, kind of makeshift Frankenstein squares together to make like this concept they're speaking about. So it's, I think it's really pivotal that Dylan was probably already thinking about this before he was making it just like a designer to designer collaborative

tool. I mean, what's the takeaway there? Is that the Is that that at transformative level that, like other people that aren't, designers can now participate in design like some of the other tools, which are also good till tools. But like it, it's more static like maybe I could do this comment versus actually, like work and share your thoughts and whether you're a you know, coming from the business side or coming from the sales side or coming from marketing cider content or design like, Is it that or is it something different? No.

I believe it's that, and I like on, ah, interesting level. It seems like it's almost like playful, you know, from what I've seen any time I've seen clients that aren't designers that are jumping into fig mother, it's genuinely looks like they're having a fun time with inside this tool, you know, which is really interesting to see. It's as if they're like taking a break from their day job to become a designer for the day. So,

yeah, I mean, it's pretty gonna have Tony on the podcast thing to talk about some of the other kinds of collaborative things like especially like how figment can be extremely useful for, like the non design stuff, like a presentation creating slides like, you know, conducting a workshop like a U X workshop that would traditionally be done in a white board. You know, like we're a lot of people now using tools like Meryl to do that. But you can do these collaborate workshops using Sigma, and I think it's pretty awesome I've been seeing a few people doing doing that's for stuff and I think it's really cool and all that sort of lives in the same space and accessible by everyone. Tell me a little bit about what you think about since we're talking about thick like now we're talking about figment. So this is just your personal opinions. What do you think about Sigma In the concepts of a design? Sprint s O. To me, it seems like a no brainer.

But that's what you used Sigma Designs, friend. Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I think it's that nuance of like being able to use one tool for so many different things. You know, it's like we can just use this type of thing and, you know, of course, there's the environmental plus of not having to use paper and all these things in print. Certain aspects out. But it's I think it's from a designer perspective that I enjoy that we can create these, you know, symbols for sticky notes, and people can just duplicate them and move them around and just easily put stuff in.

Well, yeah, that's I mean, that's the workshopping side, which is awesome. And I imagine if you had a you know, a big touchscreen display you could probably if I don't know if Sigma is optimized

for touch. But actually, there's I saw someone on Twitter they that was using fig MMA in their Tesla. So yeah, yeah,

but also the design to like, you know, because if you look at high, intense workshops prior to fig MMA, let's say you have like, 3 to 5 days and you have you know, I'm more than one designer that need to collaborate on a design in order to accomplish something by the end that that old school was like, Oh, well, you know, like, here's your sketch file or Photoshopped file, like, here's what I'm doing. Is it sinking on drop box like, you know, like where that is like now,

solve right, you like you have like a common set of things that people could just work with and create all the boards in one place and borrow and share from each other. Like like maybe even if the fidelity isn't like exactly we wanted. Maybe even if you don't use sigma as, like your stack like maybe your stack is, you know, sketching abstract. It's also great stack, But maybe, like a tool like this does make more sense For what, Like moving fast? Because you could it might be worth the investment to consider it versus and then bring that back into another environment versus not have that luxury like working in class in a collaborative environment like, I mean, it would be the same thing is like trying to get a, uh, Google doc accomplished in one day. But like two people using Microsoft Word versus like using Google docks to me, that that's how I think,

Yeah, I mean, totally So one of the first does like sprints that I was a part of here during my apprenticeship, we actually use sketch and just drop box back and forth to try toe in a sprint setting. That was crazy to me. Like we I feel like we could have done so much more work for the client if we had been using figment at the time because like we were just almost it would be teams of two different designers tackling like half and half of the designs we were going for. And I would have to like weight from my other designer to be done with theirs and save it and uploaded before I could go make changes to it. And it just it felt like this very odd process, you

know, it's obviously like a delightful tool for a lot of people. I think I think it does get other people interested in design. You know, when they feel like it's because there's some. There's like a wall that's put up sometimes when you just have, like a static screen and a prototype, and you could just comment right because you're always wondering like Okay, well, they're gonna is the person I'm talking to hear this like instead of like maybe showing them very, very recently, in fact, like within the last 48 hours, one of our clients who's not a engineer or a designer where we use Pickman, a design sprint said, like Hey, I love this like I may not be able to produce the right stuff,

but I feel like this is like a way for me to communicate with my team. And he, like he said, Like to you, Can you, uh, like I want to learn about this, how I want to learn howto give me some tutorials or are something It's cool that, like it seems like it makes it more accessible to more people.

Yeah, like as a team. And in general, it's, you know, it's so much more than just a for the design team, that's for sure. Bad talking about that. I'm sure you've seen on Twitter designs what are always debating about, like there's certain people on Twitter who are, it seems like so against fig MMA because they believe so strongly that a tool is a tool. At the end of the day, I was just wondering what you what your thoughts are. Repeat that, like there's a lot of people on, like Twitter design Twitter that, like, really just feel like I don't know if they're just the type of person that's just like against the grain, but they think a tool is a tool at the end of the day. So they're like, I'm just gonna keep using sketch.

Well, I mean, I'll share my personal opinion, but my personal opinion is vague. It's whatever the team is, right? Like, there's a very big difference between, Like, what? A team of 100 for 50 or 20 or 10 or three or one needs right? Like if you're if you're a team one. Use what everyone, right? I mean, if you're a team of more than one, like what's best for the culture,

like, how does a team like to work? Are you remote Orient House like all of those factors make, In my opinion, all of those things, like make a difference in in in this also, like how much time is invested in other tools, does make a difference. You have to really think about like, when does it really make sense to reinvest in changing tools like, you know, for some companies that can't happen overnight. It has to be incremental. I mean, especially enterprise level. When people have already negotiated like massive contracts,

things will happen a lot slower, so I don't know, like I think like I guess. In summary, my opinion is like whatever is best for the team, not all not. Not everyone's working in a collaborative environment, and not all collaborative environments are remote or together, you know? So I think you like, have to really think about that. The the Coulter teen culture. Yeah, you know what the size of those teams are? You know, we have clients that big clients who some teams are,

you know, small. And you have, like engineers in designing, working together. So they'll be using, like, one stack. And then others were. There were the work impacts, like multiple offices, multiple countries, multiple vendors, multiple people. And so they're using something different, you know?

So I don't know. It's often I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to any of that. Yeah, I do think, though, that, like, talked about this a little bit on the last podcast. But I mean, in any of these tools, when when you're just looking at it like the design, it's in your expressing an intent for what the design should be. It really matters like how it's implemented and developed. So, you know, that's where I think,

like that's where I'm starting. Well, I've always sort of felt that way because I started my career as a design technologist. So, like, there's the intent of what this thing should look like. And then there's, like, what, it actually the execution of it. So, you know, I'm wondering if people like that envisioned sketch, whatever are thinking about that, right? Like,

where does it go beyond, like intent? Like, you know, the expression of intent, like, you know, like, what about implementing? Really. But it seems like people are thinking about this stuff. Yeah, you know, I don't want to mention it cos names, but I know that some companies are thinking about that.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, even on a base level like them having the access to be able to pull, like a base level of CSS out, you know, there there's an obvious thought into that process, but it'll be interesting to see where they go, that's for sure.

So you're you're the You're the local advocate for fig MMA. And so, Woody, what do you think? About what? Where do you think they're focuses on? What do you think that they specifically need to do to accomplish their goals. Let's talk about that. So

from their newest release, which was smart layout which, like drastically speeds up workflow, basically you can just set up a little symbol and drag things in and out of it, you know, automatically a justice sizing and patting to everything with inside that symbol. So it seems like they're really trying to focus on workflow within just one tool, because before that, it was smart animation with inside fig, MMA Thio, you know, make the prototypes feel a lot more real rather than just like these certain transitions between screens. So to me, you know, and that they don't tell me too much what's behind the curtain. But it feels like they're really focusing on just expanding the tool in general and encompassing Maur of what designers use, you know, like I felt like smart animate was them tiptoeing into the principal world, you know, and trying to take just allowing designers to stay within one tool to get everything done that they usually take care of. So and it seems like truly they're just trying to speed up the work flow entirely.

What about you? Where do you focusing? What are you gonna be focusing on in 2022 to grow personally and accomplish your goals? What are your goals for 2020?

I mean, as cheesy as it sounds honestly like that since I'm still so fresh in this, it's it's really just focusing on myself, growing more as a designer, like there's I've learned so much even within this past year. And I just I can't wait to continue growing like that at an exponential level, you know, and just pushing myself to continue to learn more and more things about design and, you know, not try. I mean, obviously get the basics down first of product design. And but, you know, just trying to sharpen my I really, I would say so. Just practice and practice.

There's no right or wrong answer to this, and in people's opinion, you usually change. But do you Do you see yourself as being someone that's on the path to like full stack, you know, like research experiences, I in visual design implementation kind of gonna thing? Or is there a certain part of of product design it interesting the most, like, where do you? I mean I did What? The most interesting.

It might still be too early to tell for me. I think I just I really do enjoy so much of it. All that, you know, like from brand design, you know, and seeing what certain people on our team have done recently would That is crazy awesome to me. And, you know, I I love the research side of things. Like even working with Hitch and having toe solve through these, like, very specific use case scenarios and, like spending days just, like, you know, trying to work things out like that.

I I love that whole process in itself. Even if I'm not in figment at all. And I'm just having to, like, white board things, I'd love that. So I I haven't really noticed me being drawn towards anything. Specifically it I just you know, I I'm enjoying doing it all, really. And I'm not sure if that's going to end up with me being this, like, you know, quote unquote, you know, corner what not? But I I just I think I enjoyed like, all that it encompasses. Really.

What did you want to be when you grew up? like when you're a kid. What did you want to be when you

grow up? Oh, I think it was before the irrational fears started kicking in. It was an astronaut. And now that is completely gone. I don't think you could pay me all the money in the world to go in this face. At

this point, maybe we may not be an astronaut, but do you ever feel like you're an astronaut? Ah,

no. I wish I could say

we're exploring new territory. Yeah, you know, you

I feel like I do push myself a lot more new worlds. Yeah, Yeah. Maybe in that sense,

I have stolen that for my leadership coach because I found that's a really awesome question to ask people like, where did they see themselves when they're as they were young? And do they did they Do they see any part of that in the in their day to day world? You know, like so you said astronaut to me, that means like exploring the unknown territory doesn't necessarily mean like being in space.

Okay? Don't know. Yeah. I mean, I could definitely see that now. I mean, I definitely in a weird way have always liked, pushed myself maybe even harder than I should sometimes toe like try harder and, like, learn new things. So

if we were toe record another episode a year from now, what's one thing that you would say to your future self about what you want to be great at?

I want to tell my future self not to, like, be too hard on past self about the designs that he's done because I know a year's a short amount of time. But I do hope that, like, I still continue to have this this stride for, you know, next year and be learning so much that I do kind of look back and be like That's what I was first working

on Natalie and I save all that stuff apparent people so that we can show them like, Hey, look out, fart like, look at this shitty thing you didn't like. They're your

first week here in just a moment over my shoulder for the rest of my career.

So it's someone that's relatively new that fill the design. Um, how do you counsel these other people that you've been talking to a G A. About like about how they should approach, you know, their development or their career or the things that they're pursuing. Yeah, so to

me, it's like a It's a hard thing to really like. I'm not sure if I'm the best at it in the most honest way I can be. It's like because there's so many certain, like different people going into this field, you know, like to be completely blunt. There are people hearing about these massive salaries that you can make with you ex design being like Okay, well, I'm gonna make a career change, you know, And like that, I had some classmates that were like that in my cohort, and it's like at the end of the day, you know, maybe your background is strong enough to get you into position that's going to provide you that paycheck that you enjoy. But like if it's something you truly enjoy and like you're passionate about it,

I think it will kind of resonate around you. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think like you can kind of tell when you talk to certain people that have all gone through the same type of like experience that General Assembly. You can tell when someone may or may not have more of an actual interest into this field, then just looking at it as like a a better paying job for, say, and so like. I mean, that's not like something I necessarily try to tell people, but it's It's about like like networking to me has always been massive, like even in the music industry. I wasn't like the best artist in the world, but I was able to do really cool and awesome things. And I've considered myself to be successful because of the people that I met, you know?

And I like, you know, I met you had a networking event in I think sometimes, you know, at the end of the day, like people want to enjoy working with others that they'd enjoy hanging out with. So putting yourself in these uncomfortable situations and introducing yourself to strangers is like the only real way, like you could be the best designer in a General Assembly cohort. And if you don't push yourself the network at the end of the day, you're gonna be the last one to find a job, really, like realistically.

Yeah, And you also like, terribly point. You have to be realistic. You know, like people learn at different levels. People are, You know, some people have 2020 years experience, but very little experience. And people have very little experience. But a lot of expertise like you can't You have to, like, go into the right mind frame like you still have a lot of people like me who transition to this field after spending 10 15 years doing Web design, you know? And then you have people that were coming in this filled with, like called screens or friendships and intensive and all that.

So you think you have to like I think, but yeah, I mean, I think, Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons why I like these intensive Sze because, like and not unknown, everyone's the same, of course. But there's something about when you know that someone is spending money. So, like I learned something, it sometimes that most the time it indicates that they're really serious about doing that. Yeah, but I don't know, but I do think that,

uh, you know, all all of the all of the companies that are doing, uh, these education, whether it's like formal college or intensive story apprenticeships where they need to be more realistic about, like, what to expect of, Uh, yeah, maybe they are. I don't know. I've never been through MIT. It's hard to tell Thomas. Thanks for Thanks for doing this stock. You love doing this. Actually, it's been great to just sit in a room with you because I haven't really had had had that opportunity to hang out with you in a

while. Now we're gonna just have to do more pockets

anymore. Podcast. We'll just record a bunch and are not posting them like that. How can people connect with you?

Ah, best way is honestly Twitter. It's Thomas. The letter m for Michael and then e w a r t is my handle. I don't tweet too much. I'm tryingto be better about that, because, ah, you know, I feel like I should have a voice into it. Valya, that's definitely the best way to reach me.

Awesome. Thanks, Thomas. Thanks for tuning in the house. The podcast. We'll see you next time. Hustles brought to you by fun size, a digital service and product design agency that works with conspiring teams to uncover opportunities of all popular products. Bring new businesses to market, prepare for the future. Learn more at fun sized CEO I'm Dina, a crock designer of fun size thinks you're listening by E.