All right. Hey. Hello, everybody. Welcome. Welcome. This is the hustle podcast by fun size about mobile product design on your house. Rick Messer. I'm joined today by Fi Hong. That's that, right? Yes. Hey, guys. Hey, is a fellow product designer at fun size like myself? Um,

and just to drop a little bit about their sponsor to their sponsors. Bench bench. Crazy with a dedicated professional bookkeeper who manages your books for you. If you're looking for help with your books, check out Bench Taco. That's bench dot ceo. So getting into today we are talking with Phil Kaufman. We wanted to hear a little bit about fils unique perspective, having worked in all the major roles that designer might find themselves in. Welcome to the show, Phil.

Thanks for having me. Uh, very excited today. I'm excited to know how to pronounce fees.

Last name. Wrong? Not going. No, that's incorrect. It's very incorrect. No one's ever said that on accident. Have that many people have, but I just let him have it. Q cool, Phil, Who are

you? What do you do? Well, you know, with a lot of designers in this day and age, I've always kind of struggled with what I would call myself like a my A graphic designer and my Web designer in my product designer in my creative director, I don't know. So I've I've landed on calling myself a digital direct digital designer. That's the flavor of the month. At least s O. I call myself a digital designer. I think that spans pretty much websites, applications, anything in the digital space that needs designing. I kind of see it as my area. So I'm currently the design lead PC part picker, and,

um, been doing that since October of 2014. So not too long. What, five months now? I guess for five months. And, um, my day to day with that is handling all things visual design for the site. U x you I, um and even doing front and front and development with that, which is something I'm very excited about. I actually almost been probably half my time, if not more, just coating, which is which is new for me.

How new is that for you? What is that? Something you're doing at any of your previous places? Before you

would come up, it would come up whenever I had the opportunity, it was something I always enjoyed doing. But it was never anything that I was directly tasked with, so I never really gained much traction in it. And so my my abilities would grow a really slow pace. And so whenever I had the opportunity to join his team, that was something that we talked about early on. Was that that would be something I can every opportunity to jump into if I wanted. And I expressed interest in that. I was at a point where if I was gonna go anywhere new than I would make sure that was something I was directly test with. Her had the opportunity.

You're like hoping that whatever the next thing was, that you would be a little bit more hands on with, just like you wanted to kind of have a little bit more control of over the output of the product in general by actually having hands on with the code and how it works. Or was it more like, I just want to understand it and try something different? A little bit's

really both. I mean, always any opportunity I have to have more control over the ultimate output is something I want. I wanna have my ends on for the longest time. Just felt limited or stunted in my ability. Thio get that control on because I my understanding of html CSS it was just limited. And so, um, I wanted to have that control as well as just understanding that whole world. You know, I've been designing stuff for a long time now, and I've done all sorts of cops and work with really great development teams. But whenever I would come up with something on my own, I always felt held back like I couldn't take that vision and make it real real in the sense of it, least it living in a browser, whether it's purely functional or not. Yeah, I was okay with maybe not jumping into the back end stuff, but I wanted to go to bring my ideas to life. And so that was that was important to me with any new job that I would have that ability to to do it on a daily basis so that I really could learn

on at this point you've been you know, you've been doing it for a little while. It's sort of like scratching that itch that you had

sort of Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's It's funny how the pendulum can swing, though, because I'm doing it on a regular basis every day. I've got sublime text. That's my editor of choice. I've

got that room with the man. I feel I feel like it blinds my

Yeah, yeah, I feel at home there now, but it's funny because I'll have all go days where that's the only thing open and I won't have Photoshopped or sketch or anything open. It's It's a little Well, yeah, I mean, in I'll be, you know, in a groover or working on things and feel very satisfied and what I'm doing. But then whenever I need to, like, jump back into a design up, I kind of it feels a little starting a little foreign Sometimes, which is is just really weird to be doing that. It's, you know,

I've talked to people who have spanned both fields were like they're, you know, they would call themselves. They may say I'm more of a friend. Front ended a designer front, an engineer than a designer, but they would inevitably work in photo shop and do things, and they would talk about how they would go for stretches the time in one area and then going back to the other would feel foreign or if you're kind

of weird. But that's kind of awesome, right? Like just to like whether or not you're great and won a particular vertical like four. Um, you to come back into, say, photo shoppers sketch. And like, there's this sort of like newness like that disrupting you know, your day to day with a totally different sort of medium is good. It's It's like going on a vacation. Yeah, you know, you come back and you're like, OK, I'm back at this, but it's like it feels

familiar, but you wrestle with a little bit. I don't use like, for example, after fact system that I used to use a long time ago, and I every now and then we'll pull it up for something and I wrestle with it. But that's a really good feeling, that wrestling that you do of life you're trying to push towards push against something to get make something happen. I don't know it keeps, keeps me sharp, I guess.

Well, before we get thio far down this discussion, I want to back up a little bit for people that have I don't know you are Phil. We were hoping you could give us just, like, sort of, like some bullet points of, like, you know, your career in the history of, like, different places that you worked at because that's something we wanted to talk to you about Was just, like the perspective of having worked at an agency, you know, having worked from home with the distributive team, having worked on a product. I know that that's that's a bit of a gamut.

And you know, any designer I think it's gonna fall into one of those categories. So can you just give us just walk, walk through like, you know that the mean Yeah,

yeah, absolutely. So I I started designing in 2000 when I got started, So I've been doing this for almost 15 years now. And when I originally started, I worked for a small little a little small studio for just a few months. That ended up kind of going belly up, but that's where I got my start.

Was where you Why did you start? Like, how did you start? Like, how did you choose design as

bad. Okay, Yeah, sure. Um well, I was always naturally curious about art and creative things. I was a kid, and that would manifest itself either in just drawing whatever doodles air, whatever it may be. But it never was much more than just a hobby for an outlet. I never really considered design as a profession until I was in college, and I really wasn't even exposed to that world until I was there. So I obviously knew things were designed, but I'd never really followed design. People are followed any publications or anything or kept up with it until I got to college. And I saw in the art department that there were majors, people who were majoring in design.

And so I saw that, and I realized that that was something I was interested in because my when I was scheduled doodle in like my other classes, I was drawing more like words and letters and essentially logos or branding stuff. I didn't realize that's what I was doing at the time. That's kind of naturally what was coming out of me. And so when I saw that, that was a career, I was like the light bulb went off like that. Exciting. I want to do that. And so I ended up getting my degree in graphic design and was mostly print based, like at the time. And I went to Baylor University, which is a great school. But it wasn't at the time. The design department was pretty small and humble,

and so kind of the only thing you could do was do print design. It wasn't a variety of 96 to 2000. Yeah, I mean, the Web was pretty

new. Yeah is so new that, you know, no one's figured out how to teach it,

right? Right. And you know, I don't know if that's changed or not, but I mean, it's a totally different world right now where you can learn online. You don't even have to goto a fold school or not. But there's obviously a lot more departments in schools that are offering, you know, direct training in that. But I was at a time where I was doing being top print and traditional kind of design, graphic design fundamentals and So when I graduated, my portfolio represented that. And I had this big like, massive binder that I would carry around to job interviews and you get up and you show your work. And it was at a time, though,

where Webb was getting a lot of traction. And so when I went to job interviews, you know, admittedly, my portfolio actually was pretty pretty sad. It was It was It was It was pretty bad. I was. I was really probably enamored more by the technical ways of doing design, really than like, ultimately what I was producing. And so my examples were kind of average. I would say That's being kind. Probably so. But everyone at the time was looking for Web designers. It was like this was a new thing. They wanted the traditional studios wanted to get into Web,

and so when they saw I had no experience, finding a job became difficult, and I wasn't qualified enough to do the actual print work. And so, in a roundabout way, I ended up at a studio and I actually ended up. Is the general manager of this studio, Sir, pressure out of college? I won't

tell you the full details behind

that. But there's kind of a weird, a weird place to be. I was striking out on interviews, and then I got a phone call from the owner of the studio and we had met previously. And she's like, Hey, what do you think about being the general manager of my of my studio? And I was like, You know, just like sure, why would I turn away from like I saw it, at least as an opportunity to learn wasn't an agency. It was It was a very small studio. They had about three or four people really small. She was She was the direct does. He was the main designer and she had a few other people,

and, um, she was having a step away from the business for personal reasons. And I had exhibited enough, I guess, of an entrepreneurial spirit when I met with her. That she saw me is like this candidate to become the person that is a general manager. In hindsight, I think it was really bizarre that she made that decision, but I saw it as an opportunity to learn, and that was a really, really rough three months. Honestly, Like I was going to meetings, I was making cold calls, and I was walking into existing existing clients,

and I was the new face of the company. They're used to dealing with her and that the team was talented. But I was supposed to be, like, the person the face of the company on this fresh out of college kid. And it was hard. I mean, I was doing everything I could Is reading books and tryingto like, do my best trying to represent this portfolio that I had no, no steak. And I didn't need the work. And, you know, I'd have people who go, you know, they hear me out. Listen to me. Then they go. Okay. Where's Wendy?

Who are you

Exactly? And so it became It can't all things all things came to a head where it was like it was this. We're gonna have to let people go, and this company can't survive. And I took it very personally, actually carried those wounds around me for several years because I felt responsible for the imploding death of this company. And it ended up being I learned over time that that wasn't my responsibility that it really was on her that she I think she made a poor choice in hiring me. Her video? Yeah, and into space. I mean, she's like that purpose stepped completely out of the picture. And, you know, that's that. And so I was back on the streets trying to find a job, and I ended up through contact with a family friend.

I found a job at Large Oil and Gas Company. I was in Houston called Slumber. Jay and I ended up doing internal design work for them for seven years, and so that allowed me to basically do every type of design I could do with them. I was doing print work. I was doing interactive work. I started learning Flash. I started learning through three animations. Fancy flash. That was back in the day. I mean, that was that was an exciting time. So I wasn't doing Web work, but I was doing flash animations and I was doing interactive CDs and menus and all sorts of stuff. And I was what was great about that experience as a CZ kind of average is the work was, you know,

I mean, I wasn't too excited about what I was producing. But I had every opportunity to have stability, which I needed at the time after walking away from that previous job and it gave me stability and it gave me they had deep pockets to invest in me. And so I was learning pretty much anything I wanted to learn is learning after effects. I was learning three studio max. I was learning the deep depths of photo shop I was learning. I was doing things in Power Point that no one should innovating things that were discomfort lately, irresponsible. You'd open up a slide and it would be just this pile of stuff. And you're like, What is this doing that he'd hit play and it would animate this crazy. And I just cause I was being asked to do stuff, and I was I figured it out. So I was ambitious and trying stuff when I did it for seven years and got, you know,

I gain greater perspective on what it means to be part of a really I mean, this is Chambers is a massive multi $1,000,000,000 company, international company. And so I was I was in house designed in that massive corporate environment. And so that gave me in a way it beat any opportunity of gaining a designer ego out of me. Because, you know, a lot of designers when they graduate from school, they think they're awesome and they've got their book and they they're they're hired, you know, at it at a studio. And they're the savior to the client. And everyone should listen to them because they're they're so excited and full of of whatever. And I never gain that because I was essentially, like a king goes for this company, right?

Like they would call and we need a mouse pad with this on it, and I would put it together or we need this presentation and we need this three d rendered image. We need this, that this this and this and I just produced. And so I became. That's where I really learned. I think the trade and like the craftsmanship of what ideo? Because I spent so much time just generating things'll assets and everything, and I would just figure it out. Um and so that gave me a humility. And it also taught me a lot about how business works and how design is important. But it's not like in a large business at that scale, I mean, their their main focus were like their engineers. And so it gave me Give me a perspective when I then worked four clients when I eventually got on agency side, I understood a lot of what these businesses go through and what their what their goals are and how they think.

And so it gave me a perspective into kind of the clients mind on, like a large scale. So without that, I think aided me well. But during that time I actually started doing some freelance web design with a friend of mine and started getting the Web bitch. And after seven years, it was time for me to leave. And I went, Sorry, this is a long seven years, seven years of seven years. I'm also, like, deal with pain, like I have a high threshold for pain and I actually patient well, I'd say I'm I'm I'm more cautious.

I'm not gonna be that designer that just pops into the new fresh start. Upper jumps from thing to thing. It's just not my kind of more my character, But I'm I'm willing to kind of ride things out and be loyal and try things out and see where things go, and so that I think that actually has also aided me as well, because I tend to stick in on something for a while and I don't like if things kind of start getting rocky around me like it doesn't shake me. I just don't like I'll just write this out. It's

that school I heard I heard somewhere recently. I think last sometime last year that the average, like designers like like from job to job like that. The span of their each job is something like six months to a year to year. That's yeah, you're being like a Max like So if you are so far longer than that, it's like, Dude, what are you doing? I think

that's crazy. Yeah, I think, um, I mean, in hindsight, I probably overstayed my welcome a bit there. I mean, I even had people I was working with. They're looking at my work and going. What are you doing here? You should go get a job somewhere like they saw. Like, you're more talented than what this job can provide. And so I think I I held on to that a little longer and in part of it was because I was doing freelance Web design with a friend and we had this dream of a side on the side, and that was scratching enough of the itch where the day job was fine. But also,

we had dreams of quitting our jobs and doing that full time. And so I was using, you know, part of having the stability, that the job give me a chance toe, try to grow that out. And then we came. We came to terms. We had a d t r. I mean, we sat down over lunch, we defined our relationship way, and it became clear that that we were not gonna make the jump. And so that's That was the summer of 2007 and then the fall I had my resume out and we were We were looking for jobs, so that's when I moved here to Austin. I got a job at a agency called Springboks and joined up with them,

and that was I had been those three months in a studio kind of client service is thing when I first started, but I had not been in that world I had worked with with agencies that slumbers a but never been in the agency. Right. So I I had stepped into a senior designer roll. When I applied, I applied for that. And then they actually had an open art director position. They're like, Look, you you actually look like you're qualified for our director position was like, Well, I don't really have. Like, I think technically I could do it, but I don't have the experience doing it for an agency. And so,

for they were like, Well, for we're gonna watch you and sit and see how you do for the 1st 6 months. And so when I joined, I was a senior designer, and within six months they promoted me to our director because I kind of picked up on how things work pretty quickly and technically, I could do I could do the work, I think, at that level. But I had That was just because I had been putting in the years and and I think from a craft perspective, I was that was at that level of design.

So you went from right out of college to this manage general manager. Very important role. I was thinking like, I've never been that rolling. Like you will respect the GM. Did you know that? Yeah. So you went from there. You went to the oil company, and then you're doing some weather on the side, everyone or something. They went thio. Linda Austin came down. I started with Springboks. Springboks. Okay, And that's that.

From this on, I know you're you're history, right? It sets the stage for this. It's

a stage. Yeah, I'm trying to make this the long drawn out thing, but I don't along with it, But so, yeah, I was with them for almost four years and that was a really kind of up and down ride because the company, when I joined was right before the recession, and the company was on a massive growth spurt and we were working with Disney and Del and like, a m d and pay Powell and Toyota, we're going to all sorts of like I was working with sweet leaf tea and I mean, I was doing all sorts of stuff and it was really exciting There was a lot of enthusiasm, a lot of energy. I was learning the industry. I was learning how a client service is agency is run and how it works. And, um and then how to lead a team and do all that.

And then the recession hit. We weathered that pretty well, considerably. But then throughout the course of that time, their ownership started shifting of the companies from some of the original people started leaving, and I was. Towards the end of my time, there I was. I was basically next in line to run the whole creative department. But the company was on was up for sale. And the person that the company that owns Springboks was was looking for someone toe by it. And so I was in this position of, Well, okay, I could step into this role and gain experience and do all that, and that would be cool.

But I'm in. We're under this, like, you know, this could go any way with the company, like the company could be bought by who knows who and do I want to ride that out completely? Or do I want Thio? Step away from that opportunity and it was right at that exact same time. And I was also kind of like, Do I start my own thing? So I quit. Kind of become a contractor, which is always on pretty much every designer is always thinking about that. I think at some

point, what year was this when Springboks was sort of position herself? That was 2011. 2000. Okay. And so and Dan, was he what was d own Springboks

or so he was a co founder. Oh, co founder. So yeah, Dan is someone who I worked with when I was a Springboks. He and Adam co founded and ran the company, and they threw just changes in ownership and just the way things evolved, they had both kind of moved on from that And where Adam went started a company called Spacecraft, which will come back to a minute. It was a start up. And Dan Dan take some time off. And so I was just 2011. I was basically next in line to run. They can run the department and trying to figure out what I was gonna do because I'm a cautious person. I didn't want to jump out and start my own thing. Still wasn't really feeling comfortable with that. And

yeah, that's not the safest move. No, we'll jump out. It's

not, and I was life stage. I mean, I had like, a wife and kids, and it's just it's it was not a comfortable idea for me to do that. And I just I didn't feel like I was free enough to do that yet, But I was. It was a weird time because I got an email from Dan out of the blue was sitting in a meeting at Sweet Leaf Tea and I checked my email and I was like Huh, Dan, I haven't spoken to him in here, and he just was like, a long time to talk with the grab a beer and chat with you about an opportunity. So long story short that ended up being a pitch to start a studio with him. And so I was faced with either starting a brand new studio, which was brand new, you know,

I mean, I had a head I could see the opportunity, but it's untested, unproven writer starting something from scratch vs running the creative department at an agency that I have been out, that I was familiar with the new clients and the team, but who know where the ultimate future of that company was gonna be. So, you know, it seemed like the best choice for me was to start the studio because I had an opportunity to work with someone I had worked with already and had proven himself as being a successful entrepreneur. And it gave me a chance to take out to do my own thing without being completely on my own. So I left agency life and went and started a studio. And so that's something I've never done before. And we grew. We named it element, and we we were a mobile kind of design and development shop. But it was mostly an application design development shop, and it was either mobile or Web application and which

every everybody in Austin loved by the way he loved element. Everybody thought of them very well. Already loved the brand and all that. So I had had had to put

that in there. Well, thank you. Yeah, we were I would say probably the most proud thing we had was the brand, I think way did some good client work and we I have fond memories of that, but I It was kind of sad toe eventually walk away from that because I felt like we had a really nice, really well put together brand and build a nice studio. But we did that for two years and that we grew that to a small team and had good clients had had ongoing retainer work. We were profitable. We were doing fine.

We've got it worked out of a little house. Um, office. It was last

West West Avenue. It was. Downtown is kind of a nice, quiet part of town and Fi joined us for a while and did some contract work with us. And, yeah, that's that's got to work with the great the great fee. I can't pronounce your last name, even though I just heard it.

Let's not revisit Plan one.

Yes, So I learned I learned a lot about what it means to run a studio, what it means to develop a culture and to lead from a design like established. What is the design, language and voice of this company, And how do I one of the biggest challenges, honestly, was how dowe I established that. But then how do I build a team that can kind of maintain that? And it was hard because you try to hire people that you can work well with and feed it a great job. And we had another girl named Courtney was working with us and And how do you How do you do that? How do you translate that from something that feels very personal? And it's kind of got your personal touch into a team that can kind of carry

that, That that's an excellent I would love to hear you talk about that because I think you know, I wonder about that, you know? And I, you know, fun size. You know, we have a lot of different styles, but it's also sort of all down one like Alley of Style. But yeah, I'd love to hear you know your thoughts on that, because I have a feeling like a lot of people want to know, like, kind of get mentally what you're

thinking. What? Yeah, it's It's, um

because it's your thing. It's a thing. It's your thing, and then it's like, Okay, Well, I can't do this all myself.

That's that's the trap, right? I mean, you want You know what? You want that thing to look like. You work hard, you establishing You're like, This is what I want this company to be known for from quality stamp or standpoint. And it's somewhat on a visual standpoint, like we hear the things I'm going to fight for, for everyone, everyone who works for me. And then every project that goes out and you worked hard to establish that. And then you inevitably gain work and clients and Lee and contracts through that because people are attracted to her, they recognize that it's a quality and they want that. But you're one person. And the worst thing you could dio is is like get in the way of get in the way of company growth and get in the way of the other designers being able to join and be a part of it and kind of stepping on their their abilities.

And so, you know, I'll be honest. Way did it well, and sometimes when we didn't do it well, it other times because there were times when we were able to come up with something that Courtney your fear, whoever could take it run with. There are times when my style or whatever got in the way and I had I had to be the person on the project and that slowed things down because I wasn't able Thio. Then give my attention to the other stuff. So, you know, I don't know if I have the perfect nuggets of wisdom around how to do that. All I know is you've gotta be able to It's important to have that language. Know what that is? No. The areas you're gonna fight for and you're gonna hold everyone accountable, thio. But then make sure you're stepping out of the way and allowing other other design abilities to flourish

and wait That that's you're the second person we've got on this podcast to kind of say something like that. Clark Wahlberg, from envision was saying that because Anthony is kind of, you know, he's like, struggling with how did you handle it in what Clark said was that basically like it's it's your goal to hire somebody that's going to make a decision that you weren't part of. But we're happy with you know, after the fact, you know? So

I think you you very important you hire Well, you've gotta mean searching through candidates and trying to find someone. I mean, I found I interviewed all sorts of people that were that were really talented, but I could look at them go. I don't think that we're actually gonna work well together because they've got they've got to be a good fit, right? And so, you know, I think I think we did a good job of hiring on Dhe having the right type of people. You know, in hindsight, I think there could have been we could have done a better job or I could have done a better job of maybe working with the team a little bit more of a hands on directly. But it's hard. I tend to be the kind of person that I want to give freedom. I don't want to be a micromanager, but I kind of get in his own.

And next thing I know, I haven't spoken anybody all day. Probably remember times where I would just be sitting there not talking. Just zone out, man. I'm doing my thing.

That's like That's like my goal each day is to hopefully get to his own like it doesn't always happen.

Yeah, every day. Yeah, and it's not gonna happen long, continuous. It's gonna be like moments of zone.

Okay, well, let me let me just kind, of course, correct. This year we're a bit because I, you know, wanted to hear you talk about that. Yes. Oh, element, you're there for two years. And then there was, ah, recent development with spacecraft.

Correct. So? So Adam, who was the co founder of Springboks? I mentioned him earlier. He had started a startup called Spacecraft, which is they have a product that's mostly geared towards small businesses, allowing them to build their own website, manage it, and they built a platform for it. So they they were growing essentially at the same time, we were growing element. And so because we had friends and we knew those people, we would keep in close touch of what they were doing, they saw what we were doing. And there were a few conversations about our time in element where it was dreaming. Hey,

what would it be like if we joined teams and a TTE first when any of those ideas came up way kind of said no because we were starting element and it was exciting and we wanted to have a run at that. And then over time, the pitch came stronger and stronger from them. And we were like, Well, okay, what if we really consider

this what it was like an ongoing kind of idea, like from the start ish of Element or not really not. Maybe

not. Maybe six months into it that that idea came up, they would talk to us. And, you know, I think initially it was just more of Ah, hey, wouldn't it be fun if we all work together again? And then it became more more of a serious conversation of what would this really look like? And and when ultimately we did the deal, ultimately we did emerge with them and that that was at the two year mark of of Element. And the idea behind it was they needed some key people in their group that they could either go find and try to hire. Or they saw that we had some people that fit those positions nicely. So one was kind of co running spacecraft. That's where Dan would step in and help from a marketing standpoint in kind of managing the business. And from a design standpoint, they needed someone to really kind of run product design more,

more and more focused way, and that's where I could fit in. And then they needed someone to step in and kind of run the team and manage the projects and make sure things efficient. And that's where our project director, Andrea would fit in. And then there were opportunities for the rest of the element crew to fit in from development and design, standpoints and all that. And so it wasn't. I mean, no merger is going to be a perfect snap together for everyone, But there were There were opportunities for us to join, and we were doing the type of work that they were doing. I mean, we have a proprietary piece of software that builds websites. We were building websites and we were designing applications for other clients, and so it made sense for us to help

out. So then that's when the transition came between agency Work Service is a design service is, and that sort of thing to then working on an internal product. Like how? How is that transition for you? How did you feel about, you know? I'm designing for clients, and now we're designing, like, on one thing. How was

that? Well, I mean, it was, um It was interesting, because when we joined up with, um, there was a a strong business decision to make sure that both companies, as we joined together, may remain healthy and stable and profitable in. So, um, one thing we headed, we did as we maintain, some old element clients, and so I for about six months or so, still had a foot in both camps they're still doing was we're still doing some client service work,

and I was also starting to help out with the design and branding and product design of spacecraft. And that was that was a conscious decision. When we did the merger, it made sense like, Hey, it doesn't make sense to drop. We've got good relationships. We've got good projects. We've got positive cash flow. It doesn't make sense to just completely cut that off. And we wanted to We were stepping into a startup which typically is gonna be more cash dependent or needs funding or whatever. And so we saw an opportunity for us to bring in the money we were making in help maintain the stability of this now larger company because you've got two companies that have joined teams. I mean, you've got six people all of a sudden, join your join your company, and that's,

you know, overhead. That's insurance. That's all those things you've got to help pay for all that stuff. And so we maintain some out, some piece of element and continue to make a little element maintain an element

of elements. I might have to put a sound effect

in there. Very good. So we did that. We did that for awhile. We would slowly kind of transition off clients because that wasn't the ultimate No. But then I was working on product I had. I was one of those people. When we first started element, I was like, Man, I love client work. I love the diversity. I love the fact that it changes and I love solving your problems, and that was kind of at the time when every designer was leaving to go to Facebook or Twitter or Dropbox or whatever it may be. And everyone was jumping the client service ship and goingto product from working a product company. And I didn't really, you know,

I didn't fall tomorrow. I didn't think it was wrong. I just don't understand it. I was like, That doesn't seem like that's for me But then the more that we did design work for clients that were product companies that element, the more I got that itch to work on Lee on one product. And so I was excited about that opportunity.

It's spacecraft because right you have, like, time to focus, you know, to like, do it the way you want a tea least when I was at a private company and even now when we do product design here, it fun size, get your full thought, our take time to do that and then test that idea and, like, see, like regeneration cycle come through once you've actually shipped something, got some real user feedback from actually users and then continue

to generate Yeah, because I mean, unless you've got unless you've got contracts in place from a client service of standpoint, where you have an ongoing interruptive relationship you're not going to see that you're gonna be work, you know, x number of months on a deliver ble, and then it's gonna go live. And typically you're not gonna be privy to a lot of the outcomes of that of what you've worked so hard on. You're gonna maybe see some things, but you're not gonna You may see come from an outsider's perspective. Or maybe even if you built a product, you might see it from a customer's perspective, because maybe you can go and use it. But you're not going to see the ramifications from a business side of how that was how those decisions have impacted, you know, has sign ups increased for the customs for the company, or is that is affecting the business is growing the business.

You know, you don't really you don't really get the few peel back all the layers. So and from a designer standpoint, you you're making assumptions and decisions generally, and you're putting those into place and you don't get to see whether that those those decisions were right or how well they played out or with where things need to be adjusted. That's right. So that was. I was excited about that opportunity with spacecraft Woods to to work directly with the company that was building the product, work directly with the team that was building the product and be making those decisions, releasing quickly and then testing and then work on it over and over. And neither iterative process and really being able to soak in my mind in solving a single proper, a single task, whatever right of a product.

So you got the chance to work in space on a spacecraft on that product towards it

towards the end of my time there

towards the end of time there and about how long between the merger with Element merger, merger, merger, merger between Elements Spacecraft were there before he started the most recent.

I was there a year, a year to the day. I mean, essentially, I mean, maybe a few weeks a few weeks

after the date, right? And then just a fast track here. Didn't the most recent thing that you've been working on his PC part picker and what was involved like what was the underlying ground work, you know, in your mind and like the decisions you want to make about the kind of work you wanted to do. What? What was going on under underneath there, where you eventually let you two. You know the point where you decided that that was the right thing for Phil Kaufman specifically to do? Yep. And you could tell us a little about

PC part picker, too. Yeah, sure, I'd love to. I mean, I'm so the decision's there's There's several factors that went into that decision that I have a friend who runs PC part bigger. And so I knew what he was doing this site, and I knew he needed a designer had never had one before. And so we chatted casually about it, and it came up kind of just the conversation, the idea of me working for him, and it made sense for a lot of reasons. One. I wanted to continue that idea of working on a single product, and I was getting that opportunity. It spacecraft.

But I wanted, you know, wherever I went next, I wanted to make you wanted to maintain that I wanted to work on one thing and have that intuitive nature to the work I was doing and I wanted as we talked earlier, one of the ability to do front and development and that was gonna be something that I had a chance to do. And but, you know, from a personal standpoint, I won't. Maybe that spent too much time on this. But I was. I was ready to spend more time with my family. I've been doing. I was 14 years into doing this, and I've got two kids and I wanted to be more available to them. And there's the idea of working remotely for a company or working out of your house or whatever it may be is had gained a lot attraction more,

more, more, more my friends and peers of doing it and was like, Well, that sounds really nice, but my wife was like, Yeah, you know would be awesome if you could work from home and and have more availability to be here and but still do the things you wanna D'oh! And so that was an opportunity I had was to cut my commute completely out of my life and regain that time and be home and have

more freedom. Little like to like a 45 minute

essentially, yeah, I mean, I don't live in downtown Austin, but I was I've been commuting there ever since I lived here, and so, you know, it's just gotten worse since the city has gotten worse and

profit is pretty awesome to think about that, just completely vanishing from come every single day of your life.

It's It's two minutes. I still am in like the like like like wake up a little effect that I mean it really is. You know, at first it didn't feel that different. I didn't like I wake up and go My amazing like I just it just felt natural. It first is to be home. But then over time it was like I like I'm offered five and I'm outside in the front yard immediately throwing the football or riding bikes with kids

that like that, like have energy. I'm guessing, too, because, like to me, like when I go home like the drive is, it's like it's so like lay on the counters on Yeah, and you know, there's

There were things that I was nervous about with working from home. I had heard all sorts of stories. I talked in length to friends of mine who do it about kind of what that dynamic looks like. I was really curious because I am admittedly not the most organized or are really great itself management. So I

was likely I would have expected that you are the most organized. I'm serious. I'm not joking. Like hearing you talk about, like, Photoshopped layers and stuff. I'm like, Man, this guy's, like, wandering like perfect.

No, no. When it comes still, like managing myself, I I got on a constant battle, so I was I was nervous that I would get into this. I would turn into this total slobber. I would be like fighting the distractions of my home too much or whatever it may be. And I would I would not be gained much traction. It's, you know, it's been it's been the complete opposite e mean we we said, really clear boundaries when I started

around. That's key, man.

Yeah, I worked

there. I think I wonder why more people don't do that that work at home, and I'd like to hear what you think about, like working with a distributor team at first. But first I was just say like, just like the thing that's weird about working at home, because I don't know if you know or not, But I did that for five years. I worked. I worked on my own and I used to read blog's about people that work at home just like try and stay ahead of, like, the home blues, you know, because I had a car and everything and I would just, like, not drive it for, like,

a week solid. I'm like, Oh, man. But like I started doing this like these routines where I would wake up, you know, I would have breakfast and all that, and then I walk out the front door, and then I would come around through my garage and then go into my office even though I wasn't actually, you know, it just gave you that ritualistic feeling of I'm going to work and now I'm at work and stuff like that. So I had to kind of trying it on. Yeah, but anyway, working distributed teams.

Yeah, that's that's brand new. I mean, that's that's kind of what we're talking about. It's just that I've got all these different perspectives now. It's like I'm doing something brand new again that's working from home. Never done it. And I'm working with a distributed team. I'm all by myself, and I love group dynamics around fees. Probably going what? Because I would I would sit there and like my headphones on and engrossed in my work. But I loved being around other people, and I love joking, and I loved like, Hey, take a look at this.

So let me see that. And I was nervous the first about what that was like. But we, you know, we use Skype. We're not on Slack's

gonna ask what you used to

weigh you Skype on DDE. That was with the team and set up, and they were really comfortable with it. And it's been it's been fine. And so we're able to chat and we can jump on phone calls and do screen sharing and the whole thing. We get together every Tuesday. What's nice is it to distribute a team, but everyone's except one person is in Austin, so we get together for lunch every Tuesday, which is really nice. So we see each other and we try not to talk about work. I'm very little, but mostly it's just talk, chatting, hanging out. And then if we need to get together, we can.

But otherwise, what's really nice about this team? And I I would hope that most teams kind of our like this is that you know, everyone in powers each other and trust each other to do their work. And so I have a lot of freedom to do what I'm tasked with, and I'm interested to do it. I'm interested to keep my own to do list. And like at first I was so used Thio having like a central like like project manage like Base camp or some sort of thing where I knew what everyone was working on. I was like, What's he working on? And I was like, What do you guys use? And they're like Everyone just kind of command is around to do list. I'm like,

Oh, my God, Hey,

you know, And it was It was uncomfortable at first, but I've learned to just it's really nice to just know that I now have trusted that everyone's working on what they were supposed be working on, and that level of trust has caused me to go Well, okay, if they trust me this much, and they're not They're not. All this process is And all this stuff, like, in place, like I'm gonna show up on time to make sure I'm doing my work. I'm getting things done. And I'm as dependable as I know these people are that they've proven dependable to me. And so yeah, it's been great week. I've got an office set up my own little space carved out of the house now, which is nice.

Awesome. Yeah, that's important. Environment. Environment is key.

Can't just, like, roll over in your bedroom like next

year. But I still get up. I mean, I still get up, and I mean, I have I have kids like to get the kids out of the house, so I'm up and I'm going, but I get there. I mean, I get dressed, I get I get, like, ready for work in the way that I would leave the house, right? I'm not I'm not like in some oversized T

shirt. You got to do that. You do that. You don't want to catch you off, but we're about out of time here. Andi want to make sure we get Can you tell us? Like, where people should follow you Sure like that, Phil kaufman dot com Twitter. Yeah,

you can go. I've got Phil kaufman dot com. I don't I have, like, a really active blogger. I still have hopes for that.

E m. Are you not medium? No.

I'm actually trying toe, like, centralize everything.

We're talking about that. Yeah. Yeah. And you're still

feeling that I am? I am. I just, uh I just I'm out of the habit of blogging, and it's really, actually kind of sad to me. I miss I miss the glory days of opening up like Google Reader and seeing what everyone's

used to graveyard now

miss that. It's just like now I don't know. Everyone's posting everywhere else and I don't know where to go. So I'm on Twitter. Twitter is great. So at Phil Kaufman, if you if you want to follow me along with their there, I'm on dribble a little bit more now, which is cool, Andi.

I mean, that's kind of it cool. See what people? What people get to know you more man on the twitter on the twitter at a possible apostrophe in within a I know it's felt wrong, but lost. Someone stole that glass trophy with no dribble. Very good. All right, cool. I'm Rick Master, I guess just my name. And if you guys want Thio, send us, like topic suggestions or anything like that. Just tweet to us at fun size, request topics or just respond to this episode by tweeting to fund size. Please check Scout the podcast on iTunes Radius and subscribe.

Thanks so much, Phil Feet. It's been great having thanks. Today's episode is sponsored by bench dot Co. Let's face it, bookkeeping is never fun, but it's something you can't escape. Benches. The online bookkeeping service that does your bookkeeping for you When you sign up the bench, you're paired with your own dedicated human bookkeeper, and you collaborate with the bookkeeper using the bench app. It's everything you need to cross bookkeeping off your list forever. If bookkeeping is taking too much of your time and you just want done, check out www dot bench dot c Oh, that's bench that cook. They've got you covered.

Hustle is brought to you by Fun Sized, a digital product design agency in Austin, Texas, and creates delightful, innovative products for mobile Web and beyond. Visit us on Twitter at fun size or visit our website of fun sized.