Hey, hey, hey, hey. This is the hustle. It's ah, podcast about product design. I'm Rick Messer. I'm here with Anthony. Anthony Does stuff on this podcast to, I guess. Huh? Um, Anthony Armand, IRS case. He hadn't heard the word about him. We have some other people.

We have a celebrity guests. Jon Hamm. Hello. Way. Have yet another guests and theology. Introduced both these guys.

Yeah. So, uh, Nick Rob Blake here is a friend of ours from New York City. Nick used to work with Natalie and the agency, uh, agency in New York City. And we've been friends ever since, Um, he's in town for south by southwest. He had a panel, Uh, Tuesday. I didn't know that. Johnny, um, also from New York City or recent addition to the fun sized team.

Um, really? And I know each other. Yeah, we know each other real well. Airport? Yeah, s. So why don't

you guys each take a couple of minutes and introduce yourselves your background, what you do. And then and then some one of you guys explain how you guys know each other.

Sure. Yeah, this is Nick. I've been doing at an advertising marketing and product design for a long time. Uh, 17 years, I guess. 99 maybe end of 98. Um, Johnny and I know each other because they used to have a cool working space in in New York that he rented space set and wasn't too much of a mess at he was all right, I guess you know, he's a good guy. Ah, good, good. Higher for fun. Size for sure. Um, yeah, that's me.

Yeah. Um, I'm Johnny. Uh, okay, I'll go a little closer. Um, yeah, I know Nick, uh, through the through a map, but, um but yeah, I've been doing ah, product in design in general for since robin. 99 2000. Uh,

way in the first dot Com boom on. And you have kind of been doing it ever since. I don't want to say the years. I think Nick already said it. Um,

world product stuff for sure. Way Johnny brought a soundboard. Uh, it has not been approved by the hustle cast, but he's gone rogue. So you guys have some stuff in common aside from just knowing each other, you know, New York product design, video games, talk about how you both have something to do with video games. Okay, well, on the side from my marketing and Adam and product design work, I d'oh depended video games to it, actually just signed a contract on this past Friday with a publisher to get it out there. So that's getting shown at G C, which is the game developers conference.

The big the big brouhaha, um, out San Francisco as we speak, congratulating yourself a Southwest instead of going to that because you guys drink and eat a lot down here. That's a lot of fun. It's all it's about. Yeah,

yeah. Um, by the way, um, yeah,

okay. Cool story, bro. No video games.

Yeah, mostly. I mean, most of my career has been definitely product based or 80 base, but I did a small stint. Rockstar games for a while. Um, awesome crew. Awesome, man. I mean, dream come true, but, uh, yeah, back into doing product, but also a huge gamer.

You guys want to nerd out ever about games? You could hit me up on Twitter. Gross way. Give me upon peach because I'm on that. All the

tall Yeah. You had a client Uh, that was Ultron too, right?

Yeah. Um, does

that have anything to do with video games? I honestly don't know, kid. No.

For when I did have, Ah, my own little studio. Yeah, Ultron was one of our clients. That's like a dream come true. If you're in your thirties, are a little older, maybe 35 older, huh? Um yeah. Ultron. Amazing. Great group. Um, yeah, it was great.

Yeah, well, try looking up. Google is not Power Rangers. It's Ultron, by the way of Ultron has become almost synonymous with, like, a great team. You know, we're gonna make Ultron. Exactly. Annals of Sprite commercials from the nineties

and hip hop. Hey, Tru on night, all the time that brings everybody together. Johnny saying true or false? I know the entire rap that crisscross did for a Sprite commercial. I do it later. Awesome. Yes. Um, that was not a good segue way into the next part. It was just a fact that I think should be well known. Um, yeah. So we were also gonna talk just a little bit about, you know, uh, geography, right? Am I getting ahead of us? We were talking about

a couple things. Geography and how that matters with, you know, people design career and also the difference between working at a big agency. They're working on a project team. Yeah, I think one of the things that I forgot to mention was both both Nick and I read you mentioned. I apologize, but both Nick and I are recently well, Nick, still in New York. But, um, I just moved here from, moved back to Austin from New York, and I was there for about 10 years, doing a lot of design work with a lot of different kind of agencies.

Small shops, big shops, all kinds, startups, everything in between. Like we mentioned Mark Star games, Um, and yeah, and Nick's has also been the kind of the same boat as me.

You know, it's very similar to the mix of big, big shops when it's full time small shops when it's freelancing. Yeah, I think, for the most part of style, one for May.

Yeah, what is it? What's like? I mean, we talk a lot about small teams on the podcast or, you know, a product design teams that enterprises but then really talked a lot about, like, you know, the different. Like, what does it feel like? Nicki worked at a lot

of big agencies. Like what? Yeah, Yeah, well, the big agencies, they always put bigger teams on stuff. And of course they have. They have bigger budgets and see you get a smaller piece of the pie to work on. I think a lot of the time which has, you know, its upsides and downsides. And, uh, with smaller agencies that I worked with when I'm when I'm freelancing, Sometimes I enjoy that more. It kind of depends what mood I'm in because I'll work with a lot of agents is that maybe don't do a lot of interactive stuff or just a lot of digital stuff in general.

So when the, uh so when the project comes up, they call me, It's like we have this project. Do you want to do it? And they just hand me the whole project, and that's a lot of fun. So if I need to bring in other freelancers, I could build a little team, and I like working in smaller teams, you know, 34 people. Yeah, I think that's that's the like Ultron, right, hit five.

And that's, like the best amount, right? So, like, maybe like a project manager than a couple designers and a couple developers, and you gotta pump it out, you know, and just do an awesome job on that. And there's much less politics involved and some of the situations he's gonna have.

So I think it was you you were talking about an experience working with Nike, which I thought was interesting,

like, Yeah, yeah, so I did for for not not for that long. I mean, really, just just just a few weeks before I left the agency. I was that that that I was doing the Nike stuff at, um, you know, a project came up, we had to do some on IOS app and all the design had really already been defined. And it was kind of a kind of a cut and paste paint by numbers kind of thing, right, because

Nike has a well established brand, right, well established guidelines, working with multiple vendors. So, like, what's the difference in like being a designer doing that and like creating a product from,

ah ah, lot of it's just execution when it's when it's the bigger brands at, at, at, at advertising marketing agencies. And sometimes that can be good. You know, especially with the tight deadline. You know what it's gonna look like. You already have a kind of, ah, library of iconography defined, and colors are well defined. But if you do that for a while, you know you want, Oh, you kind of want to start stuff from scratch sometimes.

And that's that's why it's good. That's why I enjoy working with with smaller, smaller places. Can you say what agency it was that you worked on like e a R g a r D a nice Is that where? And that's where you know Natalie from or no, I know Natalie from a place that I don't think really exists anymore. I worked with Natalie and also in New York, but I had started at that was I m c squared is what it was called. Now I think it is a different name. They actually were. Didn't tell us now. Oh, I didn't know that. There we go. Uh, so So I wasn't I was in Dallas for for about a year,

doing doing a lot of Diet Coke. A lot of that cook advertising, marketing, online stuff And, uh, wasn't a huge fan of Dallas. So had them transferred me to New York. It was one of those scenarios. Were like, if I'm moving to New York, So if you want me to keep working here, you have to transfer me or I quit. Um, something. And then and then with with Natalie, mostly.

I think it was working on Dove Chocolate and M and M's. Um, and probably something else that I can't remember because that was a while ago. Now we've not only nine met each other working there, too. I heard in the in the Dallas office, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah. I worked with Natalie. And it was, you know, she of course.

She's also no record. She's a great designer, not not too big on the B s politics, like in show. And he sees a lot. Right? So she was. She was the first person that I really started getting along with when I moved to to New York. Out of that at that specific agency. Nice.

If you guys don't know who Natalie is,

that's right. Someone. Anthony's wife and find fun

size. She's on a lot of the earlier podcasting here.

Oh, yeah. So I guess this is now the Opie and Anthony show. Yeah, about a date. So, New York.

Why New York, Like, why didn't you go toe Kansas like my new York? Both you guys? Um, well, for many versus San Francisco to Yeah, Yeah. I mean, well, I mean, luckily like Okay, so for me, um, I mean, I've always like I mean, ever since I was like,

ever since I started out like New York And like, you know, large agencies like, you know, we were talking about earlier, like Jochen and Blast Radius, like where they were based in New York. And that was, like, huge thing because they were doing the best work, you know, back here in Austin, not to knock Austin, but back in the day, it was, you know,

it wasn't the same. Remember those days? Yeah, it was MME. Or I mean, the thing they were doing, you know, they were doing some Nike and they were just stuff like, you know, Casio, Casio. And like all these huge brands where you couldn't do anything like that in Texas, Right? Um, I stayed and stayed here in Austin, but my wife,

she got she got a new job and Loreal So we moved in New York, and that's how I got my New York. Okay, But it's always been actually kind of like my dream in the past, you know, kind of starting out, like, you know, you know, how do I get to New York? Because this is where all the great work is like, this is where, like, everything is happening. All the cool designers are from New York. You know,

Mitch gave shot out to like, DJs gorilla and Fame whore. No one's gonna know who that is, but like all those really great designer like Joshua Davis was there when he was a Coke in and like, it's like those are the kind of guys Those were the rock star celebrities. When you know when when you're when you're starting his young designer, those are the guys you want to work with and learn from. So it'd be what, you know, because I'm in the same. I was in the same boat. Would it be fair to say in the late nineties, early two thousands It if you really wanted to work it when these companies that was doing impactful work, you pretty much had to go there.

Oh, yeah, yeah, Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's how I ended up there. Excite. Right after college. I went out to San Francisco, um, to, you know, do the design thing out There. Wasn't a huge fan of San Francisco. Definitely wasn't huge fan of Californians. What?

Why not? Um what do you want to lay back for me? Obviously I I grew up in Philadelphia and use Coast boy. Yeah, I'm in East Coast, boy. Okay. And so? So it was a little bit too laid back. I prefer to get stabbed in the front instead of because it, you know, like, wherever you are, if you're in advertising, marketing, there's the same kind of There's the same kind of company and interpersonal politics,

and and I like I like to see it coming towards me instead of coming from behind me. Um wow. And I would say that it's probably still true now. Ah, and in New York is I mean, it's New York, right? It's this rough and tumble for the most part, even even in the ad world. I think you know everyone. For the most part. It's pretty straightforward if you're talking about and marketing agency or even the product agencies. Yeah. Um, yeah,

but like like today, it's way different. I definitely think it's not what it used to be. A cz faras like You don't have to go to New York now to work at a great place. You know, there's a lot of really great product studios all over the United States, even the world, like I mean, you know, rally. It's like, where the inordinate intuition. So what's it like sitting and some like Sarita Strike three. But but yeah, you know, rally fun size in Austin or even it, like,

you know, like this. Just like, you know, um, does this just like it doesn't really matter where you are these days. I mean, it helps for sure, you know,

I mean, it does matter like, a little bit, though, right? Like, Well, I think it matters less though it matters less. But here, let me ask you guys all this question because this is sort of what, uh, spurred the idea for the topic of geography. Like if you were hiring someone and you had something come in, you're like, Hey, here's this guy. And here's his portfolio portfolio Looks great,

you know? And then then you're like Reed. I guess whatever is perfectly Oh, he's from New York or he's from San Francisco. And then you're gonna have, like, an impression of that, that dude's work. But if you then read like instead of that, it was you see some awesome working this, like this dude's from Lawrence, Kansas. Like, how is that gonna affect, like, your decision to hire him a zit?

Good thing. Bad thing doesn't matter. Like I think I think it just really interesting. Really, really puts a spin on it. Like

So you're saying Justin summering the psychologically looking at the same body of work but seeing but one resume saying Lawrence, Kansas. The one saying San Francisco, New York psychologically doesn't make you feel like this person is more like, more capable, I guess. You know, honestly, I think maybe it depends on who you are. For instance, um, before before we were, you know, fun size. Um, I ran a little studio, and,

um, when I called Griswold Griswold, By the way, You Yeah, that. You know, whatever thing about Griswold, like Okay, we were a small shop, but, you know, not too to our home. But I thought we did great work. And if we did it didn't really matter where you were from. Honestly, if I saw someone from New York versus someone in Kentucky not to let you guys get lucky Love,

Lexington and bourbon. Yeah, I would. I see dollar signs. Someone is your want way more money. And I am from New York. I want more money, you know? Right? So I I would see it wasn't so much like nowadays. It's like the marketplaces changed. Like the best talent is no longer in New York or San Francisco or L A or anywhere. It's It's kind of like now that it's it's the like. If you're gonna create a product or create a studio or create a startup, it's like, awesome time to do it,

because you don't have to go to New York. You don't have to be your mother being Sam's gonna start, you know, start up. You can get talent anywhere you could get into India and get the Philippines like, for instance, with Griswald. Ah, lot of our talent came from Philippines, but it wasn't because we weren't outsourcing. We we picked them hand. They were hand picked, you know. They weren't guys that we just like went toe freelance or whatever or

whatever. You think it's funny. Lance.

Yeah, we went to trouble. 1000 guys talk to them. We met. It was great and not met, but virtually met, but it was like it was awesome. It's like they kind of worked with us and we did awesome stuff together. So but what would I have? A friend who's that actually lived in New York the same time I did, she said She's a butcher or since, like, left New York City to be, you know, to take her craft to Indianapolis. Tobin a butcher shop. And I think she explained this probably the best that I've heard anyone's ever explain it to me because I couldn't articulate.

I was explaining what was happening in Austin. She was like, Well, if you really think about it, you know many, you know, many years ago when we were younger, we had to go to these bigger cities too hurt to learn these crafts because that's where the epicenter was. And then we mastered those crafts or whatever in the week. You know, we as we, you know, go along the curve of our life. We started wanting different things way started wanting more space or are started family. So people all around the country designers, you know,

butchers, candlestick makers, whatever came back to the small, the smaller cities that or maybe, you know, we're kind of run down. You know, like city like you are needed that spurt of growth, like cities like Boston cities like Pittsburgh, cities like Indianapolis like, and now you have these master crap thes people that can teach and continue to grow like another economy. Yeah, so, you know, it's I still think it It matters, you know?

I mean, it also matters to like it where you're from, like a lot of people are from the work in San Francisco, New York are from there, right? So, like, it's not just they're not just there, because that's there's great opportunities there. They're also there because they want to be close. Their family. Yeah, and you know, honestly, I think like if you're gonna live in New York or San Francisco, the ratio of like extraordinary designers to, you know, um, normal designers is gonna be a lot higher. They're actually You know what?

It's a little weird. I don't know. I don't know if that's true. It's it's, there's, there's more good designers, but that's only because there's more people.

I think that wasn't say, Yeah, it's definitely Maur like there's so many people and, like, you know, there's more people. There will definitely be better designers there, But I mean, you know, it's it's still it's still important, I think. But it's not necessary anymore. It's not like it was. It's not a prerequisite, exactly. It's not like if if you're if you're from, if you're again Kentucky,

let's let's talk about Virginia, for example. I grew up around Hampton Roads, Virginia. There's an awesome, awesome, awesome agency called Grow Interactive. Look it, I am taking dope. They do mostly advertising, marketing stuff, amazing work. When we worked when I worked it, Can I drop names of agencies that ever before? Yeah, Why were the Springboks back in the day here in Austin's box? Who do we owe the Springboks one here. Um,

que spring sound effects anyway, E I was

thinking like we were hired them from, You know, I'm sure if it was, it was cheaper. But the talent Like what? It was like all this stuff for a while up loser back in 2006. And it was like, amazing stuff, like it was, like, not mean I had were awesome team Springboks, but some of the stuff they saw I was like, super jealous about it was like, Oh, my gosh, we need to step our game. These guys are from fucking Virginia. Nothing but sailors there in military and is like these air baddest guys. And it's like so

I don't think it's a prerequisite. So awesome. That's actually kind of my point. Is that like it does, like, affect your opinion, but it's almost like, Are you queueing up the soundboard? But no, it actually all right, if I see some work and I think is pretty good Ah, and then I find out that deeds from you know, I don't know, Wisconsin, whatever I'll be like, Oh, that's pretty good for Wisconsin,

you know, like I don't know, a lot of you know, I don't Maybe they're awesome Design agency out there. But then, if I didn't find out like, Oh, wait, this guys from New York or San Francisco, I'll be like, I'm gonna judge it a little bit more harshly because, like the competition and like just where you around like you're sort of it's it's the culture that you live in, like I think that really, really matters. Thio. What? Your output issue.

No, it's funny. I'm sorry to interrupt, but one thing about that, like my meeting my wife get into this all the time. She's like, Why don't you go to museums? Why don't you could do this once you that get some culture into you. But you know, honestly, I'm like

I got Internet. You're in New York and rather experience

the Internet thinning. I look York dope. It's great. There's a lot of things. I mean, of course, is a lot of things to do is like I mean, it's awesome, but at the same time, it's like there's the Internet like to like I don't need to go to New York to experience that stuff. Aiken, like the trouble be hands Pinterest. Whatever you know, it's like it's all there. Before in the past, you had to go to museums. You get meet up to do all this stuff,

to get that kind of feel of, like, designing stuff. But nowadays it's like it's on the Internet, like Aiken Go www dot design this shit dot com and it's dope. It's like, Okay, here we go. I can take that from inspiration and become something so

But I'm saying I'm saying that Internet is obviously gonna affect us pretty directly. But I think like where you live sort of indirectly, Yeah, because they're just like, ah, vibe of where you live, the culture, you know? I think that comes through in your works. There's a couple things that

I'd like to share, Like, uh, after thinking about this topic for a while, it's so obvious that to me well, to really figure it out, there's sometimes when it really matters, right? Like, let's say you're a um you're not. You're on your designer, but you're an entrepreneur. You're you're looking for a co founder. Where What's the best place to work? Yeah, Facebook, right?

Because we're you know, companies like that because were you? That's what the place you're most likely to find someone is going to start a business with him, right? Or bi, or in a city like San Francisco, you're surrounded with those like minded people. Um, you may not go there cause you want You're really interested in designing for Facebook. You might be going there because you're looking for a co founder, Um, also along the lines of these big Mecca cities, big agencies and, you know, around the world and also places where there's lots of large amounts. Product design companies,

it's It's a slippery slope, I think, because E just because someone worked at one of these big companies like Facebook doesn't mean they're a great designer. That's because these people there they hire in the hundreds. Yeah, right. So I would almost rather hire someone that came from a small to 10 person company because chances are they were in the weeds that did the work. They were closely men toward by founders and discipline leads like versus, like hire someone. Always when these big agencies are

big companies, you don't. But do you think that's because you work at a small

company maybe. I mean, it might just be my perspective, but, you know, there's, you know, there's good designers everywhere. You know,

that's true. That's absolutely true. But I just don't think that because

someone worked at RG ET or someone worked at Google, that doesn't mean

that they're good designs, Right? Thanks, man. That's that's great. Yeah. Take me down. A

Like what you're saying, though, Like, you know, if you're if you're going to be an entrepreneur in in San Francisco Verses in Austin, your chances of being successful is probably higher in San Francisco. Just because there's

what do you know about success? So, like, like, you know, being broke, earning a decent

salary. Yeah, well, I'm thinking, like, you know, like, for instance, from my experience as running my own agency studio or whatever. Um, New York do like when I first moved to New York. And again, I'm not trying to my own horn when I first moved there, Um, literally. I put my resume out. I had, like, interviews that think like, instantly

boom like this. But let's because when we got there, too, Johnny, I'm excited. The same thing happened. I was there. I moved back from San Francisco, and four days later I had a job.

Exactly. Yeah, in Austin. Different, totally different. And of course, the market's a lot smaller. There's a lot of lot of companies, But, like, you know, if you lost your job in Austin in 2005 before you were pretty screwed, like, you know, you're you're gonna looking for you're gonna be looking elsewhere for work. It's gonna be hard because a small market that's there's a lot of truth to that. Yeah,

and but, like, when you're in same thing when you're starting a business in New York or San Francisco are anywhere else where there's a high population, it's your success rate I think would be higher when you're there because there's so much more going on, there's nobody more cos somebody's ability network with somebody like people could partner with. You know, not to say that you can't be successful in Austin by enemies like front sizes, you know, you know, definitely more successful than Griswold ever was. And there in Austin and I was in New York, you know, I was in the thick of it, you know, working with startups. You know,

we worked at a co working space right underneath four square, right about four square. I mean, you know. So we were in the thick of startups city, and you guys were in fun sized Austin and doing way exceptionally better than exceptionally better than,

uh, use your words. Yeah, so, I mean, it's kind of like e.

I think, like, I probably and I probably wouldn't be able to start the company if we weren't in New York. I think I mean, not to say that we weren't talented, but I think it was a lot easier in New York, but same time, I think, you know,

I've heard that. Ah. You know, I think I heard this on back on the episode, Anthony, that you did with Greg, um, about agency stuff that, you know, if you're in San Francisco, you're in Texas wherever you can, you know, get work everywhere. But like, if you wanna work with New York agencies or companies like you pretty much have to be in New York. Is that true? Well, when I would I don't think that well,

when I mean I'll share story. I mean, I don't know things like this for everyone but in in, you know, when the first dot com bust. And when I was in Austin, you know, to kind of ring adjoining, saying there were no jobs like none. No design jobs? No. I mean, there were like, people were heavily competing for them. And so, like, the only way I could survive was freelancing.

Then it was it was tough. And so, you know, there was all these companies, like, Okay, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna apply to these companies in New York and all of them, All of them either. Didn't respond to me at all like or said When you get to New York, let us know that same thing happen to me. So when I was

late for work there yeah, well, that's I think that's looking for a full time job, too. I mean, like, after after the first dot com crash, I moved when I was in New York in the 99 2000 and so after after all that crashed. So I made the stupid mistake of going from Razorfish. Like when they were only a couple of years old to a place called March 1st right. You're laughing. You know what I'm talking about? Because it was a joke. I

always thought they had a cool

name of Nameless March. Yeah, well, that was it was a, uh Yeah, like, it's like a technology company that combined with the consultancy. And they did so on March 1st. So they named a company march 1st. That that that was the basic story. And it's a degree. Stupid story. I got to do a lot of fun work that I have to do. Like all the stuff they're like, launch the TT Roadster and launch the launch. The what was that All road Quatro when they first came to the U. S.

We got to do crazy, crazy, awesome stuff and then back in the flesh Web awards were a thing and then won a bunch of those that was good and like Macromedia, site of the day f w a N w a. Back back in the day. And at that point it was It was it was two designers what you learned how to code in flash and design and develop a website in like six weeks, and that was awesome. But then better than after all that crashed, you know, there was no work, and it was really expensive to live in New York even back then sent back to Philadelphia. And I did freelance stuff with with companies in New York because I was living in Philadelphia, I was much cheaper than some of the New York designer's work. No, that wouldn't have been, you know,

a sustainable thing. But it was a sustainable long enough for me to be back in Philadelphia for, like, 67 years until I moved to Dallas to do to do the night cook stuff. So I think there's a business there. There's a way to work with them remotely, but yeah, definitely not full time. But you know, to to the point that we're talking about now with you know where you are in the country, Does it matter is much a lot of the bigger New York agencies. They have offices now in Austin. They have offices in San Francisco. I mean, even R J has an office and like frickin Iceland, you know,

So it's it's it's starting to spread out. People are starting to get the idea that you really don't have to be in New York. You really have to be in San Francisco. You can spread out of it. Uh, that's a good point.

Well, uh, what about you? Like, um, how are things? Hard things, changing it, Like what's going on in Philly, right.

Phillies, Phillies. Texting is getting bigger, I think maybe not as quick as Bigas. They think it is Maybe not quite as interesting as they think it is, Uh, which I'm allowed to say because I grew up there. But I mean, I mean, compared to a couple years ago, like it's, you know, it's so it's a lot better than it was there. Some more started technology companies there that are doing interesting stuff. There's some does not smaller design places that are doing a lot of stuff. But it's smaller. It's smaller places. It's not a lot of big stuff

you got, you guys. I've always only really worked at boutiques, and I had 11 job at a at a bigger agency. I'm really impressed with, like, the stuff that you guys have done in a I actually didn't

know a lot of stuff. You guys, I don't know what you guys shared

I'm really interested, Interested in hearing what you guys think You know what kind of ice you guys would give to young designers that are trying to figure out like you know where to go, like they're just graduating college is trying to figure out like, Oh,

go where the companies that you want to work for our I think you know that's that's what it should come pick, pick two or three companies. Look, it's like picking a college victory. Three companies apply at all of them. See who bites, um, and and move there. If it's not where you where you live and it doesn't have to be in New York, it doesn't have to be San Francisco. Um, and these days I like that it can be Austin. It can be. Dallas can be smaller cities still, you know, fairly large cities but smaller cities. And there's and there are places popping up in the Midwest like Johnny was saying a little bit earlier like that are doing really cool stuff,

and they might be specialty shops, but their specialty shops, because their specialty is doing bad ass work. So move to Nebraska. If they're doing cool stuff with a company in Nebraska, you know? Yeah. Uh, if you if you want the prestige of working for a New York agency moved there, but think about does that really matter? Do you Do you want the prestige? Do you want that, or do you want to enjoy your job and do good stuff?

Yeah, as faras young designers go, Um, just if I had one tip Well, two tips, one network, like fucking crazy, because you never mean being Probably you could be a badass, But once it starts to dry up, you know, your friends, your friends and colleagues will come by and hook you up with all this kind of work. Um, good point second, uh, it was a just something My tongue. Um,

second is Ah. I just realized this is a long road is not is like it seems like like, man, I've been doing it for long for a while, but there's still a lot going on. So, you know, you might work at this company here and there, and it's great if you can stay at that one company, but, um, you know, it's it's like, uh, him a lot of It's a really, really,

really, really, really long career. I mean, you're gonna be in this is gonna be designing for what? Maybe not designing, executing for a while, but you'll probably be designing for maybe 2030 years of your career. It's long. It's long and hard. I mean, I'm like, for instance, gross. Um, for example,

when I started, I just want to do agency work agency nonstop because I wanted to. I I want a portfolio to be big. I want to be amazing. I wanted people that I wanted respect. I didn't really, you know, I just wanted that kind of, I guess, a little bit of power for that, you know, kind of seeing how people see your badass before you're like Oh yeah, your dope. Nowadays I'm doing more products, which still there's respect there, but it's not the same.

It's not hard and fast, like a daisy boom out the door boom gun. Now it's a little different s'more long term kind of thing going, You know, it's like you know you're building something. It's your changing, and constantly you're doing all kind of stuff. So I've switched from doing agency to more product, which right now in my life, career wise is perfect. Like I'm not about, you know, like I've done making. Making critical medical stuff is not about anymore is about making the right stuff for me, you know, and for my client. So which

we had, like a What is it? Vanilla ice? Somebody that that song. The right stuff. I wish I had a sound Clipper New kids on the new kids on the block. Yeah. Sorry. You're so young.

Yeah. You know, five years, there could be some different. Maybe I could be designing. I don't know. Frickin

Yeah, Yeah. Change with the times. Yeah, that's a good one. You got any

kind of going off some different? I think it's all interesting, right? I mean, you know, I've been lucky enough to have a taste of everything, and I I'm glad that I did. I mean, there are lots of times, and I wish that I had access to the bigger agency client roster and business. You know for sure there, though, for sure, you know, But But, you know, I think my guess Answer in chancellor in question for the young designers.

I think it might be interesting to get a little bit all the experience, right? Yeah. Go work in a small shop, go work in a big shop, go where we're gonna product company, working on agency, working advertising agency. Like it's gonna make you well rounded. And then it is a lot. You have a long time, right? So it doesn't get along like you don't have to pick a pick one of these things and be married to it, for sure. And I don't say you have a long time. Definitely. But don't rest on shit. I mean, right now I'm a little embarrassing myself. But I was doing prototype animations and flash just internally for myself and

last year last week. Honestly, it's Adam. Actually, he's being serious. It's just

for, like, just show of protecting me. It wasn't gonna be a website. It was. It was exported to mold five. Shut the fuck up. But But seriously, like one of our designers, there was like, doing stuff in principle. I was like, Oh, this is awesome. It's like, you know, you really got to stay upon this Technology cause principles,

like now it's like, you know, even like Photoshopped Now it's like shit. Who's doing? I mean, still working a little bit, but it's like really moving. So even though you have a long time, you don't want to rest and sit on your butt and kind of be that person. You want it, you got to keep moving and kind of like it's a long road ahead of you and there's a lot of change and you've gotta really keep changing or you're gonna be left behind big time. It's true. That's good. The flash is not called. It's called anime Now, by the

way. Yeah. Oh, is it really? Yeah. Well, I want to d'oh! Just say a quick little special thanks to Travis LeDoux at Mast in Denver because Anthony and I and a couple other people went to occurrence this past week. Sorry, hair trigger on that thing. And, uh, he and I kind of like he was one of the dudes that brought up this, uh, this topic. The geography topic and stuff is really after. So I wanted to say thanks to Charles for for sharing some of his opinions on it. They got some of the wheels moving on it, and, um

I don't know. It is one thing I wanted to talk about, though. Right quick before he closed up. Don't tell me, God. Way have infinity. Okay, Um, one of the interesting like with Nick and I And also Anthony, I'm not so much Rick over here. Well, maybe Rick, I don't know. Who knows?

I don't know what

you're gonna say. Uh was more of kind of like, Thea we were talking about before The podcast was more like, kind of, like agency life versus product life And how the differences, Because a lot of lessons listeners now, I'm sure, are more product based designers. And, um, I kind of want, maybe talk about the difference between that between agency and was working with an agency, not a product agency, but

in actual, like, Oh, I had a product that I could do that in one sentence. It's really simple. Do you like sleeping through? The answer is yes. Do product. The answer is no. Do marketing and advertising? Yeah. Very, very released in New York. And we'll both coasts very, very long days. Sure. Midnight.

When I am, it's because it's because they're bad at planning. Well, that's what they say is because, obviously, like a digital product design studios come into play a lot later. So I feel like, Yeah, there's more planning involved. Yeah, like like I just feel like like a marketing agency is just that world has been around for a long time. And so it's not as, uh I don't know. Uh, it's not using some of the planning methods that product is today. I mean, you're everything's of fire for sure. Fire drone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think it's like it's also like, you know, when you're as a product designer, you're actually thinking really thoroughly about this kind of stuff, you know, kind of walking through versus, like, working with an agency. It's more aesthetic based, like, you know, making it look the best, kind of like push out and and get it out there is to promote whatever product,

which, honestly, if you're interested in doing that, it's not bad. Like I had a blast.

Like working. Oh, yes, it's a lot of I mean long hours, but it's a ton of fun. It's going to tear.

Yeah, like I mean, you work with all kinds of like like with a product basting, which is kind of like back in the day, there was a kind of two designers. There was a DC designer in houses on her, and I think product design has kind of become that thing. So if you're in our interactive but, um, and it's it's not a knock on both, but like, you know, if you definitely like, are interested in when it has become, like career fair, Well, you're definitely interested in,

like doing, like, you know, really fast paced up and doing all kinds of big brands. You know, agencies definitely awesome. But, um

well, it's also different, very different. I kind of just realized this. But, like agency work, like the work that comes out of it, it seems like it's a lot more like, uh, what you see right away. Yeah, Products work is like definitely not what you see right away. It's like how it works, like behind the scenes and, like, you know, the user experience that comes after having used it a couple times and stuff. So,

you know, I think if you're running and kind of like if you think of it like these kind inspiration sites. I mean, like everything A dribble. It's definitely very Maur product base, you know, it's like it's almost kind of like

it's definitely turned into that. Remember

when durable first launched, like known was doing mobile stuff it all in drivel. Great. I look terrible, but like, you know, it's kind of like, you know, everyone's doing a dashboard every into a nap. It's like very product based is more aesthetic, you know, of course, this is just a stupid thumbnail, but if you go to things like the hands, it's very more agency for like, they're different than, like doing my stuff Mountain Dew or or Nintendo,

or you see this kind of a folio. So it's kind of like, um, I don't know where I'm going with this, but you, like you can kind of see the two differences in portfolios when you look adorable in her hands. Like this is more of a and see

the ad portfolios are much shorter lived to s Oh, it's you. You know the company spent $10 million on a brand campaign and it's live for a month. Yeah, No. Yeah, I did. And I will never see it again, and it's under the next thing. And maybe the next campaign will pick up a similar style, or it'll take notes from the previous campaign. But it's not, you know, it's not live anymore. So you must need the archive, every single piece of work you didn't like top to bottom for that marketing stuff.

We're working at agencies. Definitely. Help me, um, tune my my art direction. Abilities, right. Way to be able to get a job like that and know that. Okay, well, yeah. I gotta come up this from, like from scratch, like some of them had to come up from scratch someone that had, like, you know, strong brand guidelines.

And it was it was fun to, you know, to get to work on that. That that amount of variety variety of esthetic styles. Yeah. You know, I've been seeing a lot of like medium articles lately. It's just, like come knocking, like doing some vegetables for aesthetics. It's like, Dude, it's just it's kind of like, you know, sometimes there are product designs where you really want to, like you gotta dig deep and is more about like how the user flows with it.

and all kind of seven touches it in all kind of. It's like more about how the experience it versus, you know, um, typically just making it pretty. And I don't think there's a bat. I don't think there's either way. It's like whatever kind of design you're doing, as long as you're reaching the goal, where there is aesthetic to make it look the most badass or making it the most easiest to use in the most simple worse like, for instance, the medium or the courts app where just chat. But it's a fucking amazing help where you're getting your news, where you're chatting, have you guessing

that? No, it's really it is pretty, pretty good way to describe it, which is how I would normally think of.

It's simple, It's in, It's telling you you're you're talking to it to get news, but it's

Oh, yes, I have seen that, but that's amazing.

That's another amazing product. So, um, I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter. It doesn't like you're not really gauging your, uh, your success of how successful our product was based on how good it looks, which you know a lot. People complaining about us. Kind of like I don't even know where I'm going with this shit. I gotta pee.

Just went down a path like, Yeah, I

guess I would say is like It's it's two different worlds, depending on how you Yeah, depending on what? You feel stronger at you. No, it's not. It's not better or worse. It's kind of what it is like, what you're good at. I guess I think I think companies that air, um, that are successful kind of need both. Yeah, right. You know you need You need people.

You know you can't because, you know, a lot of people are quick to throw away like, ah, or, you know, quick through to bash like a designer that's didn't like a lot of likes on triple and stuff. But you do have to consider that, like that is important. Not necessarily. Dribble likes directly, but I'm just saying, like you can't just throw out like the visual design aspect of No, it's gotta be. You know, you can run a successful agency and not have any talented visual designers to just be like super good interaction. That's a low blow I still wish that? Yeah, I don't know, actually,

but actually, you know, I bring up my space, but that what? What it was like in 2003 to 4 when you know that your you want to do great stuff. But no one wants to hire you because they're just focusing on development. So frakking like, frustrating, like it's like like no developers say this. This means and you want to work with developers. I'm not saying that didn't shot to my developer friends. You guys are awesome, but yeah, it was very development driven. It's like Maura, about kind of finishing this and whatever. And it's kind of like,

you know, um, design would take aside, you know, back seat it has changed

from That's the right thing, but

it depends on the project. But, you know,

I mean, it's like the whole if the whole thing is really about user experience. I mean, you want to sell it back in, but if it if it's not fun to use, you know the reason my space failed, Um, if it's hard to use people that they're just gonna go somewhere else, you know that. That's why everyone goes to Facebook

now and do not. And I'm not. I'm not knocking

developers because, like, talk about friends, start to

They have a huge partnering, making that faster, making, making the site load faster, making do this, that making a smoother So it's not that. But it was like, back then it was just, like, just put it out like, put a collar on it. I'll give a fuck. Yeah, let's make put out there and is I don't know where I'm going with us again. Did I'm like the wandering part. We were just talking about design. Yeah. Okay,

now we're talking about bad design. Now we're talking about that MySpace does still exist. It's actually

looking. It actually

looks good. Now it's like, I'm sure you know what? Let me Now it's a promotional. Safer music and film. All right? I got a bunch of buttons here. Yeah, he's like, Wait a minute, we're wrapping up. But I didn't use, like, waiting for the spring sound. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Sorry. Shut up, Computer. Siri, shut up. Wait. Um I was thinking about okay. Yeah, okay. No more. Very nice. Very nice. Uh, cool.

Well, yeah, we should probably wrap up. I think we're at time, but, um, Thanks a lot, guys. Uh, is there anything you guys want to you? You know, tell people to follow you and stuff on Twitter or anything like that? You want to say something like that? Sure you can. You can if if, um if you know what trolling is and find it funny,

you can follow me on Twitter at Pixel Metal, which is my indie game Twitter. I don't really use my personal one very much, but it's it's just necro. Bellick, I seem on the podcast. The correct spelling will be will be up there. I'll make it easy to find me. Do that, nick public dot com for portfolio nerd stuff. And, um,

how can people find out about the game that's coming

up? Uh uh. I can talk again. Uh, it's got a pixel middle dot com, and it'll it'll take you right there. Best. You guys should check it out. Yeah, it was random. I made a list of random words, okay. And like, like video game related words, and I just fed them into, like a random name generator is like that so that works. Picks a metal.

Sounds good. Yeah. People think first when they see me. Because I have really long hair and I have tattoos and were a lot of black that I'm just like metal guy. And I'm totally not You're not Until the not like in a smooth jazz, Kenny G. I won't deny that mellower, mellower people like, man, you love so and so right. Like Kennedy's to meddle. Yeah, Yeah, that's it. That's it, Johnny,

You wanna You wanna you wanna do? Your game is beautiful. Check it out. Seriously, guys, check it out. Awesome. Next I have an awesome artist. Yeah.

Uh, yeah. Um, Johnny, I'm only on Twitter. Um, peach cash. Oh, Want piece years,

right? J diga Twitter. Yeah. Okay. I don't know what any of your disclaimer

I wanna if you guys air like into, like hurries.

No, no, no, no, no. It's kind of podcast, but seriously, you're a huge sonic headshots. Don't

take my twitter too seriously. It's much of retweets of other stuff that I think is funny. I rant on it a little bit. It's really like like I meet a lot of people like I've met a lot of people at south by Southwest and like, Oh, hey, you're cool, Bubble. And I fall on Twitter. You know, they're probably Who the fuck is this guy with? There's nothing really designed. Related, Just fun. But everyone is at J Digger. Um, yeah. Thanks for joining

a sure thing. Good to see you guys again. Uh, what are you doing? We're done heart cool. Thanks a lot, guys. Prodigy, thanks again for coming. Really appreciate. I appreciate opinions and, uh, what you think. Hey, thanks so much for listening today. This is Rick. I'm sure you've all heard of envisioned.

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