way. Welcome back to the hotel podcast today. I'm here with Helen Tran, CEO and founder of Jupiter Jones, also a really awesome designer and a new friend of mine. But a chance to get to hang out with you face to face several times. Thank you for coming in to the studio to record this.

Yeah, anytime. We love Texas

here. Yeah, it's always awesome to be able to do. Face to face recordings is usually with guests that remote on Zoom. It's nice to be able to sit across from someone and have a chat. Yeah, for sure. Why don't you introduce yourself and tell everyone a little bit about who you are and what your what

your day? Sure, I'm a designer by trade. I've always been a designer. Think you've been doing it for about 14 years now, and I think the majority of people wouldn't know me when I had a stint A Shopify. So I was there from what, as we scaled from 252 about 3000 employees. So that was a pretty big growth spurt, and I think that's when people actually started noticing me. But by that point had already been a designer for quite some time. So I had worked at a branding agency, moved along to a bunch of startups, then ended up in the U Ex agency much like fun size. And then we got acquired by Shopify and I stayed there for four years, ended up doing a little bit of management towards the end. And then I left that position and, you know, did a whole bunch of nothing for a few months drove myself nuts and then started Jupiter.

Awesome. So what stupider. How is the idea of born? And how did you decide to take a leap into starting a business?

Yeah, so I've I've always been an entrepreneur. I was like, that kid that I was always trying to sell things to you on the playground. I think I was just telling someone this yesterday that my first thing that I ever tried to sell with my test scores to my mother, So I had learned that there is this thing called in lung an allowance. And I had never heard of anything like that before. And I was like, What do you mean? Your parents give you money every week and my friend would say, Well, if I did Shores and I did really well, they would give me, like, you know, $5 a week. And to me,

that sounded absurd because I was just doing chores because I had thio on. Then I came up with this deal with my mom was like, You know what? If I give you 20 A's, you give me $20 she was like, Yeah, whatever. And she thought I was kidding. But at the end of the year, I had my compact out this pile of probably around like, 200 because, you know, in grade school yet tested every day, But they're silly tests with, like, five questions.

And so I gave her this, like, stack like 100 50 tests, and I was like, money hand over the money on and that was my first business. But yeah, she did. She was fleeced my mom, um and then, you know, I just continued this pattern, but my first real actual business. I was working full time at a reigning studio, and I wanted to figure out a way that I didn't have to pay rent, so I started a photography studio business, and it needed to make enough money to afford all of my photography equipment,

afford my really expensive hobby, but also afford the studio that I wanted to live in. So I had this whole dream of, like, this brick loft think. And so I just opened the studio within the month and it did pretty well, so that was like my first real business. And then I knew at that point that I would always come back to it. But I knew I to kind of like pay my dues and learned a lot of things before I started, like, really making big risks with my money. And then the rest of my career design career happened. I ended up working for other people and learning how other businesses worked. And I'm really glad I made that decision, and I also needed to grow up to was quite immature. And so I'm glad I kind of like took a back seat there and worked for a bunch of people and learned from them.

And so now I'm back to Jupiter and it felt like the right time, like I felt like I had left Shopify and I couldn't see myself working at another startup or working at another tuck company because I had felt that I had reached this level of maturity where I really wanted to test myself. And so I was thinking back to you know, who were the people that I really want to serve? Who do I want to be around with day to day? What can I take advantage of in terms of like market trends, culturally, socially and also like, Were there any ideas that I really thought needed to be fixed from a software perspective? Because I always knew I still like the nerdy side of me still likes making software, and I know that isn't, like, really interesting, but I I personally really like it still making suffer. So I thought back to when I was like a freelance designer, and I was so frustrated with all of these booking systems that I had to develop into my client websites because I was doing front of development a lot at the time to go,

and I was using this company, and I was so frustrated with using huh, If I having, I would like beat my head against the table every single time a client requested them, but they were only really the competition, and that was I'm dating myself. But that was like 10 years ago or 12 years ago even. And I remember thinking to myself, Man, someone's gonna someone's gonna totally fix this And a decade later, no one had fixed it and I had kind of left shop. If I'm like, Is this for real? Am I really like this? Seems absurd that no one else has tried to compete with them very seriously with, like, more modern technology or more modern look on software. And so I was like, Well, let's go for it.

Awesome. So what is Jupiter?

So, Joe, Sorry, sir, for under earlier. Um, so Jupiter creates operations software for businesses that are in service. And I know that super vague because it's, you know, the 10 year plan is that, but right now what that means is we basically create a serum software for the beauty vertical. So anyone that's beauty, professional and beauty kind of encompasses just a little bit more than beauty. It's not just hair or makeup. It could encompass like aesthetic nursing, which includes like Bo talks and fillers and teeth whitening, but it also massage therapist. There's like a huge gamut of that, but I just a beauty and personal care because it's quickest way to kind of say that

awesome. You did go from idea to getting the product in the market.

So it took my co founder and I from April into November the first year to build out something that was workable, like from a prototype perspective. And then, from then on the march following that, there was a few months there where we were focused on hiring and a bunch of other business related things come around March. We started making big bets on getting people to pre bi annual subscription without even using the software, and that went really well. So that was like a like my way of trying to validate the idea before sinking even more time into it. Um, and in the meantime, I was still continuously doing user testing and just iterating on the product. So I'd say we officially, like quote unquote soft hit the market, probably in October, so took about 17 18 months. I don't know what like April till October is. But that's me every time.

I don't know if you realize this, but I realized that today when I was doing a little bit work preparing for this conversation. But your mother was a hair stylist, right? So is Natalee's mom.

Yeah. And

you guys are both, uh, Vietnamese

Vietnamese thing. I

didn't I didn't make that connection. I know firsthand that problem, like, you know, because Natalie has been trying to help her when? Well, at least when her mom was running a salon. Yeah, like not having her own clients, but also people in, you know, employees in this one. This is a a big you know, sort of. How are we gonna do this scenario? Yeah, So I just thought about, uh, bring that up. That was interesting.

Yeah. I think no one really thinks about it too much until I pointed out to them. I think everyone for for quite some time, I think people met me with skepticism. Like, Is this really what you want to dio and why? And always like, Well, you know, someone who's doing this for sure there's a woman in your life for sure doing this and for sure she knows another 10 24 30 women who are doing this, and it's just we never talk about it. But I don't really know if we also give them the respect that they deserve in a way by giving them, you know, the identity of business owner. And I think it comes across to when I'm meeting them in real life. If they've can internalize this really weird story about them that they just run Ah, salon or I see what you're saying.

They go, they just do nails or they just do this. And I'm like, Well, you know, legally, your old businesses, there's no difference is just for some reason, we afford white collar jobs a little bit more respect. Yeah, So that was partly, you know, one of the personal reasons why I went after this, Because I knew that because they don't get that right off the bat. That it wasn't going to be a clear target for a lot of people.

So when you stumbled on, when you when you realize that, Okay, 10 years later, no one still hasn't solved this problem with their other potential business ideas that you had that you were debating, or was this a clearly Yeah, that's what I'm gonna That's what I'm gonna tackle right now.

I had been kind of the way I was looking at. It was I was tryingto look at it from a problem perspective. And so I was really kind of doing a lot of soul searching. I guess you could say into what type of topics I wanted to dedicate my life to. So there was only, you know, a few. There is financial independence, which is what I have been doing, what I ended up choosing. And then there's environmental concerns and, you know, your big topics. And then of that, I thought I would choose one of these giant topics and then kind of whittle it down. But when I really, really thought about it,

I went on this this'll really long, crazy three week hike. And I had a lot of time to think, and I realized that, you know, ever since I was a little kid, I've always loved money. I love commerce. Like I love seeing that people will trade this for another thing. And I've been obsessed with it since I was a child and I ended up at Shopify, and I love that experience to for a very good reason. And why would I not continue that if I love it so much? And if I consider it, like such an easy thing? I was reading something in the other day on and scram that said, like they're a lot.

There's lots of hard work out there, but there's something that you do that everyone else finds hard. But for some reason, you find it bearable like it's hard still. But for some reason this topic you find bearable, and for me, that's the whole topic of money and commerce and trading. That, for me, is not just bearable, but it's fun. It's exciting. So

I thought it's obviously important. And earlier you said something about making decisions about what kind of people you want to be around. Uh, was that a part of this, too, like, was it about the founding team, or was it about the demographic that you want to serve?

It was about the demographic. I really wanted to see what I really wanted to continue down the shop of fire. Ooh, I really loved that I was around people who were creating small businesses. And so I love that idea, too. And I think that small businesses are really the crux of strong local communities. And I was noticing that when I was going to salons and my friend salons that it's not just a haircut. You come in and you sit down and the hey, how's your daughter? It's an experience. Yeah, well, but it's so personal relationships. Yeah, and I just feel like they know everyone in their lives and all that stuff in all of the women that help me look decent on a day to day basis. They know everything about my life,

and I love. And even though I do pay them for their time and their service, like there's something to that that I feel the tech often kind of pushes away in exchange for efficiency, and that doesn't align to my values. And if anything I would do, I would I would trade anything for tech to doom or of that, like I hate that we have this, like slew of start ups that are like delivery everything to your house and my next question, that is like, Well, what about all of those interactions that are good for you. Those interactions where maybe it is good for you that you go to a checkout line and you talk to the cashier. Maybe that's the reason why we're also socially feeling isolated as because those little things really do matter.

They really do. I mean, just thinking about my mother in law, like, you know, when After they landed in Dallas after we know when they came over after the war, you know, she very quickly started a business, and she learned a lot about Dallas America culture. All the stuff from some of our clients. Some of these clients she still works with to this day, even though she shut down her

salon. Yeah,

Ineffectual travel from Austin to Dallas. Just tow just to help these people because they have this 2030 year. I don't even know how long relationship these relationships and yeah, I don't like. I think that, you know, maybe, you know, some of these types of business can take advantage of things like square or whatever to make some of the transaction thing easily. But I don't really see a lot of of service. Is that creating that space that again, I'm not really, really looking at it, but I also I mean, not that it This doesn't really matter, because more about passionate interest, but also suppose that your story and coming from Shopify and containing focusing in these kinds of problems probably doesn't hurt. Like when you're talking to potential investors or people that were enjoying your team and things like

that. Nature. Yeah, for sure, it doesn't hurt at all. And I like being around business business owners of all types, like from a very small business owners to you. Guess your medium size, I don't know, even know. And then to like Fortune 500 CEOs, I love it all. To me. It's It's just I don't see why business is a separate thing than just personal relationships. I do think it's very personal, like that statement that says, Oh, this isn't personal. It's just business. It's all purse. It's It's even more personal.

Yeah, I agree with you on that hair from my release from, you know, people that are like not the owners, that our leaders and the company's might feel a little bit differently. But from the owners, perceptive it's all

person. Yeah, I learned that lesson of really hard way like last year. I thought I would be way better at compartmentalizing things and I don't think I am. And I don't know if that's a bad thing. I think when your boots dropping a startup and you look a TTE the environment that you're forming around you and you're and you're trying to make this decision, you're like, Well, all of this money is basically paying for this experience. It's like, Yes, it's people. Yes, it's the office. Yes, whatever it is that you chose as like is it worth this? And And I think that's a decision that is deeply personal because you got to know what you actually want and what makes you happy.

What's fulfilling? Um, and you gotta be super self aware, and I thought I could just kind of like put it away in a part of my brain and say no, like, deal with it. You can just, like, not think about the fact that you pay all of these salaries, but you can't

a little bit different. But this is also something that Natalie and I have been experiencing recently because business is seven years old. But only a year and 1/2 ago. Do we have a baby in for most of that story of our business? We always prioritized everyone before ourselves. Everything right? And we have never had the conversation about like, What do we want from this? Yes, like OK, do we want us like, do we really want to support our families so that they can retire and buy houses? That decision, like something like that, makes a big difference. Unlike how you think about money. You know how you're gonna accomplish those goals. We had just never had those kind of conversations before. Yeah, it's I kind of wish I had done a long time ago,

but, well, you know, don't rush the universe's timing, right?

S o the business. How big is the company now?

We're not that big. It's just me and my founder and then to others.

Okay. You still you still doing

design? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It's kinda funny that people are treating me differently now. I'm like, I'm mostly still doing this.

So when when you are meeting When you say you meet someone at a coffee shop or a bar Something. Introduce yourself. Unit. Do you lean towards CEO or lean towards designer? Neither. What? How do you

introduce yourself? I just say I own a software company. Okay. Yeah. Um, mainly because the CEO thing is super weird because it invites these questions that I don't It changes the way they treat you. Number one, because often it's like, I don't know, all of us when they work for you. It's very strange on then and then number two. I just don't love the questions that come from I'm the CEO, Um, because I think some people have very strange perceptions of leadership that I don't quite agree with. And so they they always make a joke about it like, Oh, you're the big boss.

And I'm like, Yeah, I guess, but it's so exhausting for me to hear that, um, it just makes me kind of a little bit sad to that. Our idea of leadership is this person that goes around being a dictator. And then when I say designer, it's I feel like I'm and then they kind of like don't afford me enough e c. Credit. And so I think it's my own ego. And I'm wrestling with my own identity, which is is very hard when you make the switch from. But again, As I said, it's not a switch,

right? So I'm Justus, confused as they are when they wouldn't hear, like, Hey, what are you like? Oh, you know what? I just own a software company.

What did you want to be when you were growing up? And how did you get into design

a designer?

You wanted to be a designer?

You knew? I did. I did. And I think it was because I didn't. Mmm. I think, Yeah. Did you have these things in the States where it in, like, great eight or something? Someone was like, Oh, you gotta figure out what you're gonna do with your entire life and take this quiz. It's a career aptitude test. Did you ever do that? So we had a civics course, and I had to do that,

and I had no idea what I would do because I wasn't remarkable. Anything like I wasn't academically strong at anything. I wasn't athletically strong and anything I wasn't It was just a blob of a person. Um and so I was really confused about this all. And I knew that I was like, you know, of my test scores? I was relatively okay at math, but I really like to create things. So I always scored really high and, like art are the artistic stuff. Um, so my teachers who I didn't know I don't even know to this day if she understood what she was even suggesting me. But she's like, maybe you should become a graphic designer because the graphic designer is an artist who does math. And I'm like,

Okay, and then I just kind of did more exploration in that path. But really, What? I was excited, but I was around that time, the Internet was more accessible to me. So I was creating websites on my own time, my personal time. So I became this huge computer nerd. But that wasn't a profession, so I didn't know what I was going to do with my entire life. And I knew that graphic design was probably the closest I could get to being a computer monkey. And I wanted to be with the computer, more hops to him. And so that's kind of like where I ended up going,

but my program again, I say said cause the phone didn't exist. Maybe my phone doesn't exist until, like, you know, the second year of college. Essentially. And so I was like a print designer. Yeah,

it was a little similar and a little different for me. Like my dad owned a graphic design company. But he didn't refer to himself as a designer. You referred to himself as a commercial artist. Oh, yeah, He never

used a computer. And I liked that title.

And he had previously worked as a draftsman. He had failed out like he was in architecture school and filled out. And I was failing everything in school and my you know, and I'd always like I knew that I wanted to be self employed, and I don't want to do something creative, but, you know, my dad helped me, like, reached a similar conclusion. Like graphic design might be what you want to look at. But I didn't. I wasn't I didn't see the business side of that. I was just, like, creative, like I wanted to do.

Like skateboard, graphics or lake. Yeah. Filming stuff that I do not and and I didn't also unlike you, I didn't want to be on a computer at all. I made fun of people on computers and life years, and

you would've heard you would've building bullied me. I like obsessed with my computer and really this'll loser

eso It's 2020. It's New Year. What are some of the biggest challenges that you're thinking about right now, either personal or business wise? And what what are you most excited about?

I am super excited about this year because I think 2019 kicked me in the ass as well as everyone else I know. Apparently 2019 was a rough year for everybody. Um, but I've come out of 2019 feeling very confident about the product because, you know, we spent that entire year just kind of iterating. And now subscriptions are actually selling on a daily basis, and it's kind of blowing me away. So it's Ah, surprising, but also not surprising because we've been working on it. So I'm excited to see how I can scale it. And I gave my team a very lofty goal that I wanted to get to profitability by November 14th and you know, there's really. There's only two people being paid. Expenses were quite low, so it's not a crazy goal. But I think it is a stretch. So that's what I'm very excited about this year. And I think I think we can do it. But who knows?

It seems like it's also helping used to support the lifestyle that I imagine you're trying to have. Like I you travel like, you know, you seem to be ableto do all these things. You're personally interested, too. So it seems like that's ball work working out pretty well for

you. Yeah, I'm trying to find this, like, balance. I think 2019 was rough because I also tried to live someone else's life for a little bit.

Okay. What? What do you mean by that?

Well, I this is gonna be so ridiculous sounding too. Probably everyone listening to this, but I think I had taken turning 30 very difficult, very hard. And people were grabbing my shoulders and saying, Oh, your ovaries and kind of like the typical thing that happens when a woman turns 30. Everyone starts worrying about her over your geriatric. Yeah, like you will die alone, like Like they're like creating billboards on the highway specifically saying hello and you'll die alone. Um, so that was, like, weirding me out. And I think it This has never been really a priority for me.

Like, it's not on my top three, which is, like, find a husband and do all of these things, because I've always been so I'm a curious person, so I've always been super excited by learning a whole bunch of other things. But building a relationship is not always in my top three or probably has never been in my top three. So I thought to myself, Well, maybe I need a change. Maybe I do need to, you know, take this more seriously, and and I gotta do this other life thing. So 2019.

I was like, You know what? I'm gonna stay home more often. Which, you know, I've been a traveler since I was a little kid, so I don't even know where that came from. I'm gonna stay home more often. I'm gonna try toe, you know, put more effort into my local community, which I did, and I thought that was that was a good return. And then, um, I'm gonna date more.

I'm gonna do all of these things. And I just felt like I was living in different person for, like, a solid year. But I told myself that I would do it and I would commit to it, and I did. But by the end of 2019 I was I was done. I was so upset. And I realized that, like, there are some things you can't change about yourself, and you maybe shouldn't try to change it,

given what you just said. I mean, it takes a lot of discipline to commit to something, anything, right, Like I like, I think I've always been good at committing to things that I do in the business realm. But I've always failed things in the personal room, like right. I have in Venable to, like, be disciplined about my my unhealthy habits. And I haven't been in relationships and things like that. You know, you just talked about this and committing to do this for a year. You are have created a business and committing to that you're also very active, very active lifestyle.

And you also travel and all these other things you care about what is discipline mean to you? Have you always been disciplined? How did you learn how to be disciplined? You know, maybe maybe an impact that a little bit. I'm generally curious about that. Like learning how to be become a more well rounded, disciplined person is something that I think about all the time, but to do some of the things that you're able to do, like, I know what I'm good at. But due to do some of the things that I might want to do or maybe some of things that you're gonna I don't know how to become disappointing.

Yeah, I don't think if I was ever really disciplined, so in in school I as I said, I wasn't remarkable, but I also didn't do any of the things that the teachers wanted me to do. So I was a queen at not doing my homework and finding out a way to do it like during the last five minutes of class time so I could just not carry my books home because I thought the books were too heavy. That's the most ridiculous, absurd thing. But I just didn't want to carry a home. And so I wasn't very disciplined with, like being a very good student, and I think this carried across different areas of my life where I would get, like, intensely interested in a subject, and I would just let it run. But the whole everything else in my life would just kind of fall apart. So I don't think I've ever really been disciplined until I hit.

I discovered bodybuilding and it taught me It basically changed my entire outlook on setting goals, commitment and discipline. So there's a lot to body building that is actually quite boring, which is you go to the gym and you d'oh! 50 reps of the same exercise times six exercises times five times a week. That's a lot of I don't really want to do this. I mean, it's very easy for you to say that, but bodybuilding taught me to set a goal. Well, what's my goal? I want to win this competition. In order to do that, I need to get the muscle. In order to do that, I need to do whatever it takes in order to get there.

So it kind of framed like it slowly framed everything in my life like that. But just before that, too, I also started doing long distance hiking. And that's the exact same thing. If you don't want to die in the wilderness, you just gotta keep walking. You don't have a choice. And you know, when you're on a kilometer 200 of 340 you can't turn around. So I put myself in all of these situations, and it was it was sort of accidental. I kind of I don't know if you know, but I like I have ah, coming of age story that we tell often is kind of very boring now. But when I hit my mid twenties,

I kind of like, restarted my life. I like, and I kind of hit the reset button and ended up trying everything. And one of them was long distance hiking. And all of these kind of hobbies, like really taught me about resilience and what I was capable of, because I think for a very long time I wasn't actually sure that I could hike 400 kilometers or I could do all of these things because I again, as I said, I wasn't very remarkable it anything, so I just kind of assumed I was bad at everything. And then I started pushing myself. I'm like, Okay, well, if I could do this like,

can I do this other thing? And it was like, one after another, I would keep knocking down the pegs. And I think fitness goals are really good at teaching you that, uh, like, you know, how do you How do you run a 10 K? Well, you run for five minutes on the first day. Can you do that? And it's like, Well, you definitely could do that. So if you could do that,

you could probably do seven minutes and then it's just kind of this, like, incremental. It really kind of framed my learning. I was always a good learner, but I didn't know howto like Break it down into a process. And I think I've really just kind of, like mastered that. Now I'm coming around to

it. That's awesome. I mean, you know, there's a big difference in a gold that's like, right x many words per week, then, like, transform your body. Yeah, right. And I would imagine that having those experiences also translates really well to the kinds of responsibilities you have as a co founder and CEO in order to create, like, breakdown things that take a long time to achieve into things that makes sense for your team to do and be able to break that down. I could see that that those experiences probably helped a lot with that, I think is, I think,

a lot. You know, I don't have those those kinds of experience in gold setting, you know, for me has been That's probably the most difficult thing that I've experienced. And running a business is like trying to figure out how to create these goals and translate them into a way that I think others can attain them because I'm always like Go, go, go, go, go do it Yeah, and I'm also the owner or not. Everyone's thinking about the same velocity I am. I think that probably is a good way to learn howto great really vehicles.

I think people really struggled with that. One of my thing is I can't remember his title. See Emos from a Shop of Fight said. Like like people overestimate what they can do in a day. But the underestimate what they can do in a year, which is kind of like a very interesting problem that we all have with gold setting. And I think we encountered that, too, in Jupiter, where you're trying to build something. And I'd say it takes about two years to get to market on average for a suspicious company and feel confident about where you are,

in your opinion, getting to market or getting the market being like a validated in

a in a validated space. And maybe that's a little bit too early, because notion took three years. But on average, people have given me like, 2 to 4 years. It takes around that amount of time. And I think founders often burnout out of boredom because on year, like two year like, is this really worth it? Have some two years of my life into this and and then they're like, Oh, can I do another two years? That's really difficult for everyone, and sometimes I struggle with it, too. But I can.

But there are moments where I can like I can feel my body building brain kind of like kick in, and it says, like if you if you need to get to this goal. You need to do this, and so that kind of, like frames everything into perspective for me. And so do you really want this goal? And I think it's really important for you to know why you want to get there, because it's like, Do you really want the school? Why do you want the school? Well, you need to eat some shit in order to get there. It can't be perfect all the way through, and I think that's really hard for everyone. It took me so long to get past that,

even for a bodybuilding. I have my moments of doubt. Like last week. I was just talking to my coach. Coaches are helpful to. I was talking to my coach and having a complete meltdown about, you know, what's the point of all this? And he's like, Well, there isn't, you know, there's no point to anything, really. It's like, Well,

do you really want this goal? And again the answer is yes. And so the answer is yes. Then you got it. There's some stuff that you got to do in order to get there.

Yeah, I think I was. I was watching a comedian on Netflix and someone had a skit was No, no, it was the completely different. It was the Democratic

and in someone's skin is I might as well be a comedy Central. Yeah,

Someone said something like, there are a lot of working professionals, you know, even some that are highly paid that work to pay for childcare. So they work.

Yeah,

and there is some truth to that. Like these. These things that you start thinking about when you're older are expensive personal care, hobbies, childcare, you know, caring for your parents, all all these things. And when they in aggregate, they add up. And there is some extent to like, having to, like, design your life so you can, you know, pay for these things. But,

you know, like all things considered, I think the thing that we think about similar to you is like, Okay, well, you know, this is a life, and you know, there's no right or wrong way. Like what? You know, like, what's the best way we can design this so we can do have the balance of the things we want, like, maintain that the kind of life we want being older, have the,

you know, the amount of money to so that we can explore our hobbies and then it kind of travel we want to do. How do you think about there was something in one and, you know, there was a block that you wrote is called lessons from 2019. I think like that you mentioned something about wealth is a peace of mind. So I wanted to ask you about that. Like, how do you how you define wealth, like for you and how that sort of guides the the kind of decisions that you

make. Yeah. So I grew up in not a very wealthy environment or not a very well off, even. Obviously, my parents were immigrants, so they came over with very little, and I always just kind of looked at money as a tool. But it was never a goal to me, And I don't think my parents ever framed it. Is that either it was more like, Well, we're gonna need some money in order to survive, Of course. And we're gonna work really hard for that. But to them, it wasn't interesting to buy a new car.

It wasn't interesting to get a bigger house. It was just like we just need a house. Let's just get to it. Let's just get to there. And then once we got a house, we have a roof over our head and some food coming in every day. It was It was good. So for me, wealth is always freedom and choice. So I think another form of jail is working for someone else working 12 hours a day and resenting everyone around you. It's like a jail of your own making, perhaps, or a jail of society's making. Um, and to me, that's not wealth.

It means you're poor if you're poor on time, Um, and your poor on choices and your your poor on a lot of things, right? And I think to me, that's really what the rich thing is about. So you look at a rich person, you say, Oh, I really want their life. It's like you don't really want their life. You don't really want that 10,000 acre mansion. What you actually want is their freedom that they wake up every morning and they could say, You know what? I'm gonna drive my Lexus down the street to the grocery store and buy like a really expensive bread at Whole Foods. And then,

you know, go get my nails done like that's That's true wealth. I think it's not the mansion or the cars or all of that stuff. It's the ability to choose. And I think the ability to, like also set your time and and figure out what you can do in the day based on your values is also another form of wealth. And for me, like wealth is also peace of mind, like I know right now that I've gotten myself to a financial level where I feel like my parents don't have to worry about things. And for me, that's peace of mind, like that's wealthy. I don't care what happens to me.

I don't I don't know about you about it, you know, like coming for what I know about Vietnamese families and Mexican families in the culture, our grip and there seems to be a lot of similarities. Do you think about taking care of your your family?

Oh yeah, for sure, it's not even a choice. Yeah, it's an understood. It's it's what happens. I didn't I actually had no idea that people didn't do that. Like, I didn't know that people made a choice to put people in homes and all that stuff. I had no idea that entire industry existed because I just took for granted this whole idea of like, Well, yeah, of course I'm taking care of, like, where else would they go? They're mine was like, I'm theirs in their mind and also the idea of,

like, child care as well. My nephew was just born last year, and it was just kind of expected that my brother and my sister in law would move into my parent's house for a bit. And that's just what happened. And it was never a question like, Oh, how are they gonna juggle childcare for the first few months? Just like, Well, of course, like, what else are the grand parents doing? So yeah,

yeah, that's that's, you know, not everyone had, you know, comes from families where they think about that. But I think that, you know, like the least for me. That's that's something we talked about this a little bit, that it helps when you really understand. That helps drive some of these things. My, um I love both sides of my family. Like my mom's side of the family. We have, like,

two engineers, one that was like one of the biggest executives at Exxon. When that worked for NASA and other ones, the cardiologists, very wealthy family all went to Princeton. Yell that my dad said that family, like no one, went to college, you know, very, very different economical situations. And I had a lot of pressure from one side of family and like to do this. My dad was like he said very early on. He said, Happiness is being your own boss. Yes,

he's like, You know, um, I understand that now, like sure, you have to be able to survive. But when you when you're in control and you can do these things like I've realize for me that that's that's well for me like that, that that flexibility

to yeah,

to do things the way I want to do that's ultimately drove me to start this business because I couldn't well, part of the part. It was that, but also like, there's no way someone's gonna work me 12 hours a day like I e I know that I couldn't do that. Could be effective in four hours. And, like, I just can't work in that

kind of environment. Yeah, but I I can be a full of attitude. Employees, too, when I feel like I'm getting directives that I don't agree with you. Yeah, I'm I can be a great employee if you agree with me like the best employee you've ever had. But if you disagree with me, I am, like, your worst nightmare.

So, uh, Jupiter's hiring you could you could apply at

Yeah, it doesn't work for me is really fun.

So on. Ah, maybe break it down on a personal and business level Like, where do you hope to be two years now?

Two years from now? Yeah. Dream No. Wow. Okay, well, Jupiter's definitely profitable two years from now. Definitely for sure, for sure. And we have maybe one more developer. I I like the idea of a small team. A smallest possible, as long as possible. As profitable as possible. I have a couple of ceos that I really admire. Um, one of them is Ray Dalio,

and I think he has one of I think if if not the largest profit per head of private companies. Investment firm? Yeah. Great book, by the way. Principles. Have you read it? I haven't passed it. Take a look. Yeah, he just He just lays out all of his values and principles and explains how it's executed through his business. It's

fantastic. So is this what you're talking about? When you were, we were organizes and you talked about principled leadership. Yeah. Okay, let's talk about it.

Okay, so we're start what,

like whatever you think is the off

the cuff like, Yeah, Interesting. I think we often don't talk about principled leadership anymore, but it used to be From what I gather from what I've been reading lately, it used to be Maur Normal and accepted Two look at business as a way of executing your values in society and somehow within the last 20 years, it didn't turn out that way. Like so. I think there's a generation of entrepreneurs and I've been reading all of their books that feel like they have very strong values, very strong ideas on why they're doing the things that they're doing. Like one of my another one of my famers Favorite CEOs is even shard. So the founder of Patagonia and he comes across as someone who is full of integrity, has principles, has reasons behind why he's making these decisions and explains how he does it through the business. So he cares deeply about the environment. And here's how he's doing it through Patagonia. Well,

they reworked all of their fabric so that it's all recyclable. I didn't have to, but they they had they didn't have to. They were the leader in the market at the time, but they just took. They just decided to change absolutely everything about their supply chain, including, like going all the way back to the people who are making it. So they support a bunch of factories that have wages that are liveable in the countries that they live in AA. They changed all of their dies so that they're not, you know, as as damaging as the ones that were available to the industry before. And they're still at the forefront of all of these new fabrics and all of these new dies and all of these new ways of doing business. So it used to be, I feel like based off of my reading that there was a generation of people that were pushing this idea of principled leadership. And then somehow I think,

you know, we got we fell in love with money as looked a little bit too much. And then that kind of that didn't pass on to the next generation of entrepreneurs. And now I feel like I'm looking at Tuck's startup CEOs and I'm like, Why do you not know this? And I'm frustrated. But then, of course, I only know this like recently, So I just feel like there's a lot of, like knowledge that was not passed on from that generation of CEOs to this one. Already think this three generations now, Um, so now the third generation is doing things like, Well, you know,

now we're trying to squeeze the middle class, and that's that's our business model, like everyone is renting out their homes or becoming a part time driver or like all of those businesses, just squeeze the middle class. We can get into this forever, but regardless, like there's a whole generation of things, and then now they're trying to like ham fist in values, like after the fact they're saying we're doing this to, like, you know, change Transportation for the world was like, No, no, you don't get to say that because you didn't come in like right. Are

you familiar with the below the ice for iceberg business campus model?

I know below the iceberg, but I don't know,

Um, I I was at a Google sponsored sprint conference and they had different people into sort of present different design thinking methodologies and, like design thinking canvases. And one of them was I can't remember the the two individuals that created it. It's called below the iceberg in it. It was a design thing canvas specifically for those kinds of things like Okay, we want to let people stream content 24 hours a day. What's what's the Yeah, what's the reaction to that? How is that like the energy, the energy of the economy, the way it looks on things on like a like an economical sociological, like all these different other spectrums that aren't like those kinds of things. I think about it, but I don't think a lot of people think about that. Those kinds of things. Yeah, it is kind of hard to like work work backwards

into that. Yeah. And I think maybe, like people were told, like, business is a way for you to make money, which is not wrong. But then they were also not told the other half, which is it's a way for you to make an impact in the world That also happened to make you money. Like these two things, they're not mutually exclusive. You don't have to, like, go down one of two paths or eight, but yeah, so I just felt like that's been missing in a lot of leadership. And often I still hear about it when we talk about it,

even like on Twitter or anything like that. And I still think that's missing. We're not talking about, like, integrity and morals and, like, we're not questioning each other's decisions. Like, why are you choosing to the, uh like, Well, I don't know uber for girls, please.

Okay. So, back on the two year thing, two years and now. Okay. You said earlier you said I'm the owner of a software company, not a CEO, not design two years from now. Are you still designing?

Maybe product? Still, I can see myself letting go of the marketing stuff. I do everything right now, so even code the dot com. So, yeah, I I can see myself letting go of the marketing design. There are definitely more talented designers out there doing that. I don't know if I'll ever like oh of product. I think that is my strength. And I love doing user testing a lot of doing user interviews. That was something I deeply, deeply missed towards the end of my shop ified position because I was doing so much management. I didn't have enough time to actually do my job, and we also had user researchers there, so it didn't make any sense for me to do run the interviews.

But now that I'm in the position where I am doing it, I love it like I still love that part of it where I get to talk to people and they're so excited to talk to you, too. I don't know why people don't do more. User testing is such an uplifting part of my position where I get to say, like, Hey, can you use this like, Is this helpful for you? And often times they say yes, like this is really helpful. Thank you for doing this. I'm like, God, this is the gratitude. I've been chasing life,

so I don't know if I'll ever stop that. And I think it's a good thing. I think, you know, the CEO needs to keep their pulse a little bit on the product. My ex CEO, my shop. If I won, he still keeps his finger on the product. Um, he still develops. So

I saw something recently Were someone that I know in Austin applied for an apprenticeship or something to be like his assistant. And he responded on Twitter with this, like a really amazing thing is like, really awesome to see that that level of connection just kind of a side

thing, But it is. Oh, yeah, I think it's great these days that now you have, like, instant access to people who you wouldn't have otherwise, and I totally abuse that all the time. I'm like damning people that I have no business talking Thio, but it's pretty great.

So I wanted to ask you a personal question.

You seem to be

in Texas a lot recently and, uh, which is common for someone that lives in Toronto. So what is it? What is it to bringing you to

Texas? Um, my your friend Colin. Hi, Colin. Uh, he brought me here first the first trip, and then I just accidentally found myself in Texas the next six months after I wanted to go up to a football game and he and another friend had taken me out. Mike, I think, I think Has he been on this podcast

University laundry?

Yeah. Yeah. So they took me to my first riel American football game for my birthday. And then, yeah, I just kept coming back. Awesome. I think like Texas has a way of making me feel more comfortable in my own skin. Toronto's quite a soft city, so we don't have a lot. We don't have as big personalities as you do in Texas, so I feel when I come here, I could be 100% myself. Whereas in Toronto, I'm Malik maybe like 90% Helen, like, there's something like that's,

like, squished in Toronto because it's not socially acceptable to be that person. And I think that in Texas, because you're older, so used to, like so many big and in your face personalities that I can come here and be 100% Helen and I'll still be a very soft personality and it's gonna be okay. And so I feel like a little bit safer. And there's like, an endearing quality, too. Uh, are you guys just can't quit talking. We like, talk. You love talking like so much, so much to strangers.

Everyone around you and I first I thought it was my friends. I was like, Oh, I really like these people. They can't stop talking. It's kind of nice But then I came to Texas and stayed here for a little bit longer, and I was like, Oh, it's actually everyone in Texas. I had no idea. And then on my big chair of my last recent big trip in Texas, I had been meeting Ah, bunch of other people who had moved here like from California from, you know, wherever they were in the States and I was just telling them This is like, Hey,

have you noticed that Texans can't stop talking and you're their friend, like instantly and they're like, Yes, I have noticed that that's why I moved here and stayed and I was like, Yes, it's so great, like, Yeah, it's very, um I don't think it's Southern hospitality. Everyone says that immediately. Southern hospitality, to me is like, I'm coming into your home and you're gonna be nice about it. Yeah, of course.

Right. Every culture has that version, right? So I don't think any culture out there is like, you know, it. We're total dicks. When you come to our country, every culture I've ever met has been like we're very hospitable, except maybe the Swedish a little bit cool, but of most of them are pretty nice. But Texans have this other thing wishes like they kind of start conversations in the middle of conversations, like the first thing they'll say to you is almost as if, like, you're in the middle of a conversation. And then they kind of like,

continue. So, you know, in most countries, it's like, Hi. How are you, stranger? Please tell me something about you. So you become a not stranger in Texas. It's like yesterday I went to my grandma's house and she she faked. That's like like, Whoa, whoa! Okay, All the sudden you're in your grandma's house.

Do you have a grandma. She really likes to bay. It was like, really weird. Have it they have, and it happens everywhere you go all over Texas. I was driving all over Texas, and it's a very common thing.

It was really difficult for Natalie and I. We, too, when we moved East Coast to see that re elected, you know, But, you know, coming back, Yeah, I think you know people, you know, only thing else. I mean, I'm obviously very big fan of Austin, but I think people in Austin, in Dallas and other cities and they generally care about community and building mumbling things, it's usually pretty rial. I find that's what keeps me here, bring you back here more

often. No, I was just telling myself, like Stop coming back to Texas. Like, try other things.

Well, I mean, at least come to Austin more often. I mean, there's nothing wrong with Dallas, but come to Austin every now and then. I know you, like, took the great Greyhound.

It's total par on part now in Dallas and Austin, I

think. Do what

e think It's par on par. I spend just a moment like the same amount of days in Austin as

they do that, well, then I just probably need to. It's been more time with

you when you hear that way. Just need to do more things

together. Let's do that. Okay. Thank you so much for making the trip here. Yeah, and for being here, I'm looking forward to hanging out with you and learning a little bit more about your impressions of Texans. Congratulations on all the business success. And, um, thanks. Thanks again for making time. How come people connect

with you? Yeah. If you want to reach me, find me on Twitter. I also have an instagram, but it's less interesting and it's about cookies right now. So Twitter Tran, Helen, um, Instagram Tran Helena's

well in your business

and my business's Try jupiter dot com.

Make sure you check out everything that Helen's doing, but she's a really awesome reach out to her. Thanks everyone for tuning. In this episode, we'll see next time. Muscle is brought to you by Fun Size, a digital service and product design agency that works with inspiring teams to uncover opportunities about popular products, bring new businesses to market and prepare for the future. Learn more fun sized dot CEO. I met debris, Sanya. A design leading fun size. Thanks for listening the hustle and be on the lookout for our next episode.