thanks for tuning into the hustle. A show about the ideas processes, people and culture

behind designing meaningful digital products. I'm your host, Anthony Armand Heiress. And I'm joined today with Johnny Ham design director that as designer in a really good friend of mine. Thanks for joining Johnny

Cell. Oh, thanks, man. Um, good to be here.

Yeah, well, you guys might have heard Johnny on a previous episode that we did. Um, that was about his experience working in New York design agencies. Um, Johnny, for some more context. A little. A little bit about yourself and the kind of stuff you been working out lately?

Sure. So, um, as Anthony said, my name is Johnny Ham of been a designer for about 16 plus years, working on different types of projects spanning from typical websites. Um, mobile Web, APS. You name it, um, and more recently, working towards working on projects that focus on ah, more ai ai based type applications. Things like conversational U x Botts, every kind of buzz word trending thing today. Very emerging day.

I r B r everything doing? Ah, fortunately, you know, it's I'm really psyched to be working on this kind of stuff, but yeah, kind of like everything. That's kind of like very experimental right now. Um, I've been had I've had the pleasure of working on recently.

Awesome. So, Johnny, you're a design director. Why don't you give us a brief description of what that means? Here, have fun size. So sure,

um, you know, it's it's kind of like a mix of, ah, creative director and art direction. Um, And when I say that, you know, at a typical agency, a creative director might, you know, lead the overall, um, project path and overall visual direction and user experience direction. But they might not necessarily design anything versus in our director who might be not so much leading the project but directing the art, but exactly directing the visuals, actually getting in there, executing a lot of the stuff And, you know, working with their team and managing other designers to make sure that you know, the creative director of directors revision is applied in and thought out.

Okay, So, um Bennett, fun sized. I guess the mix of what you're dealing with is the intersection of managing two or three projects dreams at one time, building a deep relationship with the customers, working with designers on each of those teams about in work. That's balance between research, you ex interaction, design and visual design. Um, in those of us that have this role fun size, we're juggling a lot of things. And one of those is that is that is that is the relationship of the client and in the future, opportunities with these these projects.

Yeah, exactly. So, um, kind of going back to what he said like it is a mix between, you know, you know, setting division in the gold in the goals of the project of the client, working directly with a client and doing a lot of these executions as well. Um, you know, there will be times where I might work on a project where I will. I'll manage the designers but not necessarily execute on anything. But just make sure that the goals are in place and we're following and making sure that that's completed or there might be a project where I'm actually setting up concepts and designing those in making sure that whoever's design it on on hand is following through and make sure that's all done but the same time also working closely to with the client. Making sure that you know the goals that we come up with together are being met, Um, and just kind of making sure that they're happy with everything.

And, you know, I mean, what's what's great about fun Size is that, you know, versus, like, other places that I've been, too It's like it's not It's not so much where the client is, like, kind of like, kind of like they're almost the enemy. Sometimes here it feels very collaborative. And, um, you know,

kind of kind of seeing the client is more of, ah, design partner trying to make a good product. Um, and that's kind of like my role here, uh, fun

size, as faras designer Richard goes. So it's a little weird, but, you know, just just for some context, the way that we sell the work is we give a client a team that includes a design director and experience lead in one or more product designers that are dedicated, and then they they have a monthly, simple monthly fee. So, um, when we were coming into an engagement, let's say, let's call it a three month engagement to design A a mobile application. Um, we don't necessarily know where where the project will be, when when our statement workings.

So it's about, you know, building that initial trust with a client like you said by like working with him, as it almost like almost like is if we're working at it and on their same team and helping to make really big decisions about, you know what's gonna be in the road map, what's not. And then almost all the time. If there is a good if there's a good relationship, there's this huge opportunity to continue working together. And when there's no defined, like statement when the statement of work is only time like how do you think about, um, extending a relationship with with a customer or a product that you really enjoy working on? Like, what are some of the tactics you used to help a team, you know, see the value that we're providing and illustrate with what the future could look like? Vegas.

Yeah, so, normally, when a project starts off, we ever kick off. When we start putting the story together as far as like how we're gonna build this sprint incineration and figure out what the goals are for that. Um, a lot of times they'll come up with, like what they need now. But, you know, inspiration might strike while you're in that meeting, and then you say, Oh, what have we also did this kind of thing, You know, maybe,

for example, they they're focusing on an IOS app. And you're like, Oh, this would be awesome on Android as well. Then you would kind of put that put that into the ice box, kind of saying, you know, letting him know that Hey, this is another exploration. Or, for example, if you're doing IOS And, um, you have, you know,

you feel strongly about maybe, you know, selling them on ipad idea. And it's like, this is this could definitely work with iPad. And just as well, especially if your clients is Ah, you at home a lot on the couch. Um, you know, just kind of putting out ideas out there just like what ifs kind of possibilities. It might not be part of this scope and, um, what you're actually working on at that time, but it's it's always great to kind of put things out there like that, you know,

not just like products, but just like, you know, features like Oh, um, so you want to do Ah, you know, you know, for version one, you want to do this because of the timeline. But, you know, for version, too. We can definitely do all this hunter of the crazy stuff. You know? Would you be interested in doing that kind of

thing? It's like the combination of, like a design strategist and a product manager. Yeah, and pitching exactly. Because you're constantly trying to figure out, like, what would actually push the needle for, you know, for, you know, for this customer, for this product ecosystem and some examples of some of the stuff that I've seen over the years include, like us just going, Oh, first of all, when we do this kind of work,

it's free to our customers. So, you know, we don't work with clients on Fridays, and so a lot of times will do this kind of stuff. But some of the examples include, like helping a client map out what the next year would look like and features, And it might just be user stories. And sometimes I've seen people actually go in design discreet, different features that could be added to the product. And then, like you said, like starting to think about Maybe we've been working on IOS. But wearables is really important to the investor team are. And some of the stuff that I've seen your teams do have been helping them dream, you know,

years into the future by thinking about how some of these things apply to virtual reality. For example, some of this stuff maybe not even some of stuff, maybe worth building now And some things, maybe, like just good ideas to be thinking about for the future. And I think that that's, um, really important because, you know, you, you kind of have to be looking in two directions, like, What do we have to do now? And how do we you know, what's the target for the future?

Yeah, exactly. Uh, so when the recent projects that we finished up, you know, uh, it started as an AIP iPhone app, but, you know, just like, kind of the type of user that's gonna be using it and kind of thinking, you know, towards you know, five years from now, maybe even sooner than that, you know, we thought would be great just to explore,

you know, a V R option? Why not? You know, um, it wasn't part of the original, you know, s O W or anything like that. It was just like we were so psyched as a team of his overall product. And we're like, Dude, this would be awesome is a vey our project. So we did you know, our own research on our own time. You know, typically,

on a Friday, um, tried to actually create a V R prototype using the tools that we have now. I mean, we're not programmers by any means, but, you know, kind of taking things out there to kind of create that. And, you know, I mean, yeah, it's a lot of it's, you know, it's a little extra work to do, but you know,

when you're really psyched about a project and you want to see this thing become amazing, I mean, we had no problem spending the time to do that kind of stuff. Well, it's it's

it's almost like it's, um, you know, it's hard to sell a project it's harder. You know, it's harder to keep a client, and it's kind of like the way that I think about it is I don't ask people to do this kind of stuff. It's not a job requirement that it's almost like it's your project to lose, yeah, or your project to, like grow and And And I think that, um, aside from you know, you know the team dynamics and the cadence and the way things are going, I think that, um it proves that we care a little, proves that we're thinking about little a little bit more than just the bare requirement.

That doesn't mean that it'll, you know, like the example that you that you shared I mean, that definitely did not make it into their short term road map. But I think it had a things like that. Um was a big determining factor for them to decide to go and do a second project with us 1/3 and now our fourth. And so you know that that's kind of important to me. And I think our future because, you know, I knew this all along, but I didn't I didn't realize how different we were until, you know, we had a good finance team on board. And they told me the difference between you guys plain and simple is that most agencies are out there selling a project. They design, they build it and they ship it and they're on to the next thing.

Yeah, even though we're not an ER, we're a digital products studio. We're definitely not, um, advertising agency. But our model is more like that oven oven advertising agency where, um, we build trust on short projects. We usually gain it 70% of the time. These customers will do 2345 more engagements with us, too. You know, some sometimes will be working with them for a year or longer. So I realize that that's sort of a special thing. And I think that,

um, this is this could be really inspirational for freelancers out there that you know, don't like to spend a lot of time looking for the next next new client all the time. If you find someone that you really love working with, you could do some of these things to, you know, continue that relationship to continue to build trust too um, do the things that will allow your customer to open up the kimono and and let you do more work

with him. Did you make that up? Because that's also has kind of hilarious.

Anyway, I don't know if I use that correctly. Um, but you know you know what I mean. Yeah, I think a lot of times when someone's hiring an agency or a freelancer, or even when you hire an employee, Sure, the the trust battery isn't full yet, you know, And so every decision, every action that a new team or person does either drains the battery or increases it. And once, you know, I think this is Ah, this is a a metaphor that another big tech company uses. I don't know who it is.

Maybe I'm gonna say, maybe it's suppose I'm not sure. Anyway, the theory is that once once someone has reached 100% battery charge, from that moment on, they can be You can start letting to doom or whether that's autonomy or more high stake work. Yeah, things like that. And you know, I'm not. I think it's just a fact. You know, a lot of these relationships have to be tested. And But, you know, it's not just these kind of like,

what else? What else is what? Uh, it's a lot to kind of think of to ask someone. Okay, Be a great design leader. Um, make sure you know enough about design research and New X and visual design enough that you could work with the team. Some of these, some of these team members may might have all three of these skill set. Some may have one within. And then the other ask Is this sort of account management stuff? You know, we don't have account managers. The design director is probably the closest partner that a client has. Like that. Isn't that a lot to think about? Like, isn't it a lot to think that you know you're responsible for it? To a large degree with the with that relationship with the with a client team is gonna

be like, I mean, when you say it like that, it's like you're kind of element man. That's actually this'd a ton of work. But in all honesty, and I'm not trying to sound like, you know, I got this in the bag or anything. But it doesn't feel that way, I think mostly because I mean partly. Partly it's because you know, just the way the project's structured, you know, it's like a lot of times, you know, it's kind of like,

you know, almost wanted a time, maybe two at a time kind of thing. But it's when you, when you when you work with a client and think of them less is your boss and kind of more of a partner and kind of trying to solve a problem. It doesn't feel it doesn't feel at least to me like extra job. It just kind of like, Okay, this guy's working with us, too. How do we, you know, how do we use your talent? Is a client thio solve our goals and then you'll let us do the work that we need to do that kind of thing. Um, well,

that sounds a little weird, but I mean, I guess the answer. A question. It is a lot to think about, and maybe it's just from experience that I'm able to handle this kind of thing. But when I started putting the client as a partner, it became less of a hassle or burden to talk to them and work with him, you know? I mean, so it's not so much like, um oh, I got to make sure that this guy is super happy because, you know, we're gonna lose the account. It's more like,

you know, hey, we're both We both have the same goal. We want to make a really kick ass project, you know, Let's work together. Um, and since the tools we use, like, slack and things like that, you know, kind of communicating with them all time it makes it makes a lot of things, especially like managing, um, their expectations a lot easier

not to toot our own horn, but I think we whatever we're doing, it's working out really well. We are definitely not the most buttoned up, like, you know, formal professional team. Like I think we come as we are. We are who we are. Um, and I like that because some of these relationships we have are we where this works out really well, the clients will work in the studio with us. You know, there's hugs and all that sort of stuff given out. And there's not this. There's not a lot of weird. Like,

you know, you're a client. You're my vendor, like, yes, everything. Well, I mean, and everyone's different too, on how they manage this. You know, me and Natalie and you are the design directors. Each of us are either running from running fun size or have ran a studio or studios in the past. Yeah, and you write this takes time to develop that. What kind? What kinds of tactics do you use to think about the client as a partner? And how do you show them, Um, that that How do you show them that?

Sure. I mean, it's it's really all about. I mean, just communication, you know, seeing them as kind of your equal and saying that we have this problem solved and just making sure that, you know, we set the goals that they expect. And we're hitting on those goals and maybe surpassing them. You know, um, it's kind of like any relationship that you have, whether it's your significant other or a friend. You know, there's always, like a little give and take here and there.

But as long as you're kind of on the same level, you know, it works out pretty well. You know, um I mean, I guess as far as tools go, I mean, it really is just about, like, being personable, being open to hearing ideas and just kind of work just being open to the idea of working together. And I think at, like when I first started out, Um, you know, when I before was fun size for a while?

You know, I'm not sure if anyone really knew this, but I was freelancing for a long time and had my own little studio for a while. But, um, the hardest part was, you know, working with a client and then seeing them as something that they're like sitting on the high throne somewhere where you're tossing stuff I to them, and then they're coming back to you. But there's, like, kind of a disconnect. Kind of like, if you can imagine that person on the high throne in Europe the very bottom and you have Ah, you have a plateful of ideas. You're not handing it to him.

You actually just tossing it to him, like with a slingshot. Right. Um, throughout the years, I've found that, actually, you know, becoming more that person where you're you're trying to set a equal footing and you're on the same level where it's it's it becomes easier where you can actually handed to him vs and then give us, you know, Hey, give us feedback based on that And instead of like, sending up their way and um, waiting for that, you know, two days later for that kind of information, I don't know if that really answer the question as faras the tools go. I guess it's just

Yeah, I mean, e, I think you explain. I wasn't necessarily talking about tools, but just the ways in which you do that, you know? I mean, the main call out, I think, was communication. Sure, and that's everything. Like, that's the style of communication. And it's the cadence, right? Like, yeah, you could be a friendly person. But if you're only checking in with your best friend once a year,

yeah, and I think good, it comes back till I mean, this is kind of like my theory on everything. As far as like, relations with clients, like when you're young, you have your parents, who you look up to write and you try to do things that make them happy when you're in school, Same thing you have teachers, you're trying to make them happy, get good grades. They're not on the same level as you there the person who's, you know, judging you and giving you, um, what you need based on what you provide for them.

But the way it should be is, you know, more of, like, not so much that they're up there on that throne. But more kind of like, Hey, we're eye to eye on where I die or we're on the same level where I don't want to be friends. But we're friendly. And when you see that person's a colleague versus someone who is above you, it makes the relationship a lot easier and a lot, um, a lot easier and a lot more manageable, because then you're not afraid to say, Oh, what about this?

What you think of this, you're not You're not gonna do You mean it might get shot down your ideas, but you're not afraid, toe, you know, blast him out right and say this would be grave. Did this or not this or whatever, right? Or if they say something you're like, You know what actually does a bad user experience. This is probably a better solution. You're not feeling, um you don't feel that because you said something, you're going to get judged and shot down. I mean, you might get shot down, but, um, that risk of of fear of losing and is gone, we're

making something together. Exactly. And so that the side benefit of that is that the designer for the design leader or the agency or the freelancer doesn't have If you work that way with with your client partner, then you don't have to take the full burden of having to solve the problem alone. Exactly. It could actually make it, in my opinion, a lot more fun to work on stuff. And then, you know, in addition to communication style and cadence like, just, you know, like, just to reinforce that you said treating it like a real relationship, like, you know,

you know, getting together and doing things off. And that could just be, like, you know, talking about the work. Yeah, um, you know, evaluating how things were going every 2 to 4 weeks with, like, a retrospective you know what can we, um what should we keep doing That's working really well, which we stop doing. What should we start doing? All these things that can let you navigate the space together in almost real time?

That way, you know, You know, the design team doesn't have to send a letter a concern of a client, or the client doesn't have to send a letter of concern to the agency or whatever, and you're just kind of work it out out together. And obviously that's not for everyone, exactly. But in this world of building digital products, I think it's, uh it's gotta be table stakes because you know things, move it. Lightning speed and requirements change and a whole other salute things. Let's talk about the opposite side, um, of this coin And,

you know, and and then talk about how how a customer a client, um, can start think about their freelancer or their employees or their agency more like a partner unless, like a vendor, that's like on the other side of the world. Sure, what are some tips that, um, what Wooderson tips you have for people that could help them navigate

that part. Yeah, Um, really, In this mean growing up, I was a super super shy person, Like, you know me now, Like, I'm probably the least the furthest from that now, but, um, I think confidence is really, really key. With dealing is far as, like, leadership role.

You have to come in there and give that or, you know, the aura that you You're an expert on this and, you know, more than likely you are like, I feel like I'm an expert at a lot of things, you know? So you have a comment there in have that confidence that you're the expert, you know what's right versus what's wrong. Uh, and I'm not saying to be a jerk about it or have a huge eagle about it. Like, I'm not saying like, you know, be some kind of crazy CEO, boss kind of type thing,

but like more of just like, you know, putting that or out there, that you that you are the expert, they're coming to you for knowledge that they don't have right in your your job there is to present that knowledge in a way that solves that problem. So I mean, really confidence. It's like, that's what really makes someone I mean, I guess, a successful leader, in my opinion. And also, um, no leader, freelance or whatever. Whatever kind of job you have, it's like that.

Can you clarify whether you're talking about the design team or the client?

The client? I'm sorry. Time of the client, but also with the design team. But, like at the same time, you don't want to shut down. I mean, there's confidence. But then there's, like, arrogance, and you don't want to be arrogant. You don't wanna

be that guy. You need to be the domain expert. Exactly. Need to know the problem. The problems intimately you need. You need to have the the know how to solve that problem and at least, you know, play that

role in the project. Exactly. You need to be Mr Miyagi in there, Daniel son or your team of eternal son, right? And and, you know, they see you as that guru, the karate guru. The karate Sensei sense a that they're looking to learn something. And then, um you know, you provide that to him, you know, and there's a lot of self doubt like there will be times especially working with a lot of, like, new stuff.

Um, yeah, it's kind of Ah, the paint defense. Yeah, sure. And over. Yeah, but I mean, sometimes you go, you'll go in there not knowing what the hell's going on. But, you know, um I mean, really just confidence tohave that I think really helps the really ship a lot because they're coming to you. Like I said, they're coming to you as the expert to help solve their problems.

Um, yeah, that's I think that's important. And I say I think also just a little trust in the process. Yeah, you know, like, you know, hiring a hiring an agency in today's world. You're gonna you know, people are gonna be, um, asked to work and more agile, lean processes, and that might feel alien for a lot of, um ah. A lot of folks are companies that have been used to more waterfall approaches.

And, you know, I think you just have to be open minded. Thio. You know, see how that works. And I think if you are you kind of you'll You'll notice very quickly how How Well the team can work together. how quickly they can solve, um, dynamic issues and and and arrive at design

solutions. Yeah, trust is actually, it's another thing that's mean these, these clients of yours, they're putting thousands and thousands of dollars into you in your company and then who you are and they're trusting you that you're going to, you know, solve that. So I think like confidence and trust is definitely important, especially when you're trying to Upsell because, like, I think what makes the way that we were great is because, you know, not only do we try to focus on ties a hand, but also think about ways that could make this product better. And if they trust you and they see you as an expert in the and they understand that you know you, they're in good hands than it's kind of thing,

like Well, yeah, oh, fun size had an awesome idea to do. Some of the are We should explore that we

didn't think about that. Do we have the budget for that? We do. Let's let's do it. Or maybe just spend a little bit of money and get in user's hands and see if it's exactly no worth investing.

Yeah, I mean, is that is that trust that, you know, building the client's trust in making sure that they whatever I did you have that they'll say Yes, this is this is a great idea. Let's do it. But it also comes with execution like mean. Trust is something you definitely earn. You know, it's not something I mean, sometimes it's like they trust you right away. But for a lot of times, it's something you have to earn. And I think when you're when you're actually working on a project, making sure that you're solving those problems and doing the best job you can, Um,

with what? You're what you're given, we'll help you gain that trust. So, towards the end of project like, Wow, you did an amazing job, we would love you to be on this other thing or whatever or something

like that. And that's when you get to say, Well, that's great. I'm glad I did a good job. Even though I'm

colorblind. Yeah. Yeah, baby, Sometimes it like you're designing something. Years like man like I don't totally agree with this, but its clients great with happy with it. And you build a trust. So it's like, you know, there's a little bit of, like, you know, sometimes like,

a little bit. Yeah, well, this is a whole other topic, but, um, you know that that will probably have on the show about understanding the being empathetic to your customers as personas. And I think a lot, You know, you're right. Like I think designers need to understand more than just that. I mean, sure, we want to create great design, but the people that's paying the pain, the paycheck are also they have their own concerns. They need to look really awesome to their boss.

Yeah, or to their stakeholders. And sometimes sometimes that has to come first. Yep. To build the trust battery so that they let go the reins and let you do stuff. Exactly. And

yeah. No, you're totally right. Like I've I mean, I just remember, like, things when I was younger designer, you know, starting out. And then you're designing something like, Why are we even designing it this way? Blah, blah, blah. All right. But then sometimes you don't see the bigger picture because you weren't, you know,

privy to information. But then it's kind of like, you know, um, I don't even know where I'm going. This actually, I'll show up now.

It's all right. Well, I mean, um, so we so on the client side, we said confidence and trust. So I have one final question for you. Um, I'm just interested hearing your personal perspective on this. How critical do you think it is that Ah, a customer or stakeholder? Whatever it is the person that's not the design team, how important do you feel it is for them to actively participate and in the in the planning, in the design workshops and other various forms of the design process versus

being hands off? Yeah, I think it depends on the project, but overall, yes, I definitely think that having them, you know, ah, hands deep, if that's the right term, like, just like, kind of like with you and the weeds kind of thing is definitely super important, Especially when you're working with startups and creating a project from thin air. But sometimes it's It's like you're building upon a foundation that you've already worked previously, so maybe a client might not need to be so hands on. So for example,

if we're working on a start up right now and, um, at the very beginning the project, you know, clients very, very, very much involved. Right? Um, but after maybe the third generation or our second statement of work, it's It's something where, you know, the trust has been established where we can actually start doing. Things aren't because we understand the project well enough where they don't have to be so hands on. But I definitely think in the very beginning it's very helpful, but just the kind of circle back it really just depends a lot on the project for sure. Um,

how would you feel about a client or remember on the client's team designing and sketch with you?

I think that's fine. I mean, I what I like. I wouldn't explain when that happens. I don't expect him to create magic or anything or create the final product. They're just kind of like white boarding, you know, it's not. They're not actually designing it for you. They're looking for us to design and make it look great. So I'm totally for doing that. If that's the way they need to present their idea and get out of their head and put it on something then, and that's awesome. So, yeah, you might be using Comic Sands or or, you know,

whatever eight point type on it, Like I get it as long as the ideas there's like, let us do let us make it pretty, you know, gives that turd will polish

it. I recently worked on a project that you weren't involved in, and it was in the cyber security space. So talking about being a domain expert like we like, we really had to team up right? And when we were looking at the full scope of this application, we identified that. Okay, there's like, 80% of this fun size really needs to do tow own, like creating the initial paradigm and some of the more complicated interaction design. But it was clear that there is this other 10 or 20% that would be better suited by the client's designer. Doing so. What was really interesting about this project was when we did the planning. We would assign some things to fund size team members, and something seems to the client side, and we were actually designing together.

Yeah, um, and I don't know. I personally really, really, really like that. But I know I know that everyone does.

Yeah, I think sometimes people feel like they're getting their job taking not job taken away for them like they're there for a specific job. And now the clients doing it and they might feel like a little, you know, weird about that. But, um, you know, as long as the product goals are being met and you create something awesome, I think that's totally cool to do.

It's awesome. Thanks for taking a moment out of your work data. Come back on the show. Good, Dr Bailey. Little busy. Wanted Thio. Tell everyone how they confined you on on the

interwebs. Uh, and well, I don't get my Twitter out because it's It's I. It's like the insane ramblings of a spam bought like you'll see that you're like, Well, if you like the insane ramblings of his fan bought, then follow. It's at Jay Diga Capital J Lower Case D, and, um, I'm mostly on on Pinterest. Um, it's ah, it's Pinterest dot com slash hello, Griswold. And there's a lot of if you're looking for inspiration on stuff.

Definitely check out that picture's board. It's dope. Don't think showing everyone tuned. We'll see you next time. Thanks. This'll episode of Hustle is brought to you by ENVISION Design. Better, faster together. Learn more at in vision. App dot com Hustle is brought to you by Fun Size, a digital product design studio that crafts delightful digital user experiences with inspiring product companies. Follow us at hustle cast and fun size on Twitter.