nice. Welcome to the show, everybody. This is the podcast we are percent for. Yeah, we've seen what happens is the last episode we recorded lots of some pricing and I just got a little bit about what is different about fun size between December and people

way from were people Thio 10. We have

an office downtown 63 36. So awesome. Yeah, WeII have this whole office gay way. Put all of you cool, Super fun side stuff and we're sitting Everything's just great. White, black, maybe yellow Sometimes sometimes a squash

gold team has grown substantially are products of girl Substantially. We went through. We went soft west are clients. Our clients have grown. Formalize our process of it.

We have Sure. So sorry for the last time, but we were busy. Busy, so that's been awesome. Recently switched to you create sound. That was really cool time there, so I just kept writing Thio current events. Hopefully your iPhone coming out soon. IPhone six. I don't know what it's gonna be. I'm curious because you think I cannot go taller, right? Like this thing is like, already, like way too. Like the aspect ratio was really like to tall.

Taller. So I've seen somebody knows. I think I have seen stuff, but it's scary because that cheating bastard that's what I'm saying. This is so crazy that up until now, for always like they have 3 20 with whatever the novelist exporting forever. But then they've never gone outside of that situation with

one of the biggest arguments they had, is it? It's optimized for your thumb. And that's why people have resisted Andrew. But now they're going to end. And,

well, what can you do on the entrance? He's going to be bigger than this. Andric Bones I had. I mean, they have to go wider. At this point. I just can't imagine doing anything else going wider. S o I wa s in the car is like there was a new update. Thio I was seven. Like you can actually get seven. Car arrival is in the car. If you have the right car. Was like, Yes, I have. I have a holding out ever since, Like last year? I heard about this in the car holding out. Yeah, I

changed by cars buying anything you

move towards leasing. This cheese is quickly and cars. You know, player player, no matter what year it sounds way my decision. If I find your car or like a slave, you start to get one that has I lessen it. Mobile site. You know, I do that. So I really want Wait. I was in the car more than just

just a lot of information because, you know, looking at your phone cars really kind of scary, you know that there's a medium article that he had fun sites around, talks about how backwards that are, build industries right now, like it shows all these examples of, like, 1/4 $1,000,000 1/2 $1,000,000 cars that still have audio on their faces that look like they were down in the eighties, right? Yeah. Your eyes still looking down this

way? Yes. Like GPS in the car, even like GPS by those eyes are bars

kind of related to today's topic. But, you know, I think that people they're doing box in today's world unity, learning that stuff in advance you because you take Spotify. You know you designed mobile and get his honor for map. But

yeah, just now you always have to take into account. Oh, it's It's a modification or desktop software. It's also mobile app to do. But now it has a point

like you brought today. We're looking weird in a remote. That fire. What is it like Netflix, right? Like what? What skills does designer Netflix? How many teams are there? A team for our team, for TV as a team for Sam's on their TV, for team for Mac team Windows? There's a team for, I think,

what Jordan said that like it's like it. They have a saying There's like 10 platforms that they have to sign for. Each of those platforms probably have, like each of the teams on the platform probably has, like five teams that do different features. What a vast project that is. Um, let's see. Oh, we've also been using slack. Oh, yeah, is awesome. We love it. You can integrate So me, absolute way have one client that we worked on Pivotal Tracker with that has, like we have just the team members that are on that project in one particular channel,

and we can integrate with pickles tractors at any time, like a story is updated or accepted. Chat flow can integrate Google announced with great drop pots. It's really fun. Honestly, Like before you slap Please. I didn't realize how often I was being disturbed with until

it is also off transparency. Because people can talk transparently. Yeah, instead of one communication,

create groups. I like you. Great. What apprehensions? A really cool you can really customize like your notifications that you get. Yeah, I like excessive design it like, I love that they went to a more colorful palate, Just sort of like I was the desktop web. It's just, uh you know, the panel in the in the background for the meaning of this purple. Why not all seem like enough Great green blues? Yes, I It's just delightful. Got Channel day? It's Danielle posted a bacon gift.

Yeah. Later, someone sent bacon and just people like this. Yeah. Uh, I skipped. We're gonna talk about the nexus, which I do not know anything about. What about?

I don't know. Anything you like overly interested in Anyone has heard anything about the new nexus or the next to say I love it. Take it.

All right. That's 100 fun size right now.

I'm sure there's some things online.

So I say, the fire inside of me has died with this a little bit, but I didn't have a recent obsession with Quiz up. I played Seinfeld Quiz up for, like, three hours. Just like over. Just the power to get 20. Get that second here. Yeah,

About time. You guys,

I'm sorry. Everything is gonna be, like four games to play with them. Just like that. Yes. Schools are still like, I still remember that. Drop shows like it's cool. It's got this really good. My flat design feels pretty nice. Especially like the game playing stuff. But like when you're looking through the scrolling through like the topics, Yes, it's like he slipped. And they have this, like, nor Lee.

19 nineties. That's what you mean, consciously. Just drop shadow, drop shot. Yeah, well, you see much more time on her, but I don't know what given is using something.

Give us. Well, I mean, given is this really cool new learning tool that this really work with myself? Because I have 10 minutes to spare. Morning, milady. Air again. What is essentially like? Imagine, like a miniature little media, right? Anyone could go and publish what creates profit. Say it's Iowa's design or, say its growth, hacking or engineering. And they just had their own,

you or else the things that you they think people in greed. And so you start learning things by, like just readings articles, and you can decide what you want to learn. If you wanna slow down design, scallop on business stuff and these things that you could do it like release for amount time, it seems like he's got right future. Notice a lot of weight. What community generated. So when you could be a great account and you can create a topic of your choice and give it a name, start. At least that way it's pretty cool. There's a lot of things like that, just like not given the other various, like email, news letters. You can subscribe to their old learning based, and it's an area. What are you working

e ties to our topic today about like, tool belt, right? Like there's a lot of things that you can actually tap into you Now that maybe when we were going to school, we didn't have Yeah, I know that we're talking about today is that the practice ice tool belt and recently suspensive A long time I'm just gonna do like a quick title overview of what way had discussed it to three. We discussed how mobile project engagements are electrically than another. Other engagements. Private is working any way designers and agencies are. Hopefully, yeah, but budgets are obviously gonna be a lot different with projects usually quarterly and annual masters is like a thick face project budget on. And also what is expected of a product designer is a lot different from normal agency designers. So that SD so, yeah, question about any of those topics. Make sure. Listen, Thio are so Stephen three. That's right. The

reason why this prophet is so important to us is because this copy front and center of our decision making as we grow what crime? Yeah. What? Who do we play? Who do we bring into the team? This kind of person, you know, right is it is a very angry specialty, designers by managers of combinations of all. And, you know, what we finally realized was that it doesn't really matter what we bring into fun size. If people were to leave the company and they were to be out in today's job market. But what would they really be doing? And so we kind of yeah, that's helped us out a baseline for, like,

the skills we teach you. And you no offense this up because, you know, maybe Rick to you have a lot of experience in this area. You know, you never for a desire to be working at an agency is a completely different being in front of working at a product company. In an agency, you have a team of designers that you work with a company you might want three or four. You might be the only one right. And the skills, the skill sets are different. You know, most of mine background has been in a noisy environment where I had a great director, our director,

I What I know about it is based on what you guys tell me and what madman tells me and and what my friends.

So that is interesting, like the magnet thing like to be successful in that era. You had the old draw, right? If you could draw

drinking your client if

you're I think that what people will find today's world is that there is, you know, heyday of Web design. There were all these decisions that were created. Creative directors are records, Web designers, front and developers, engineers, strategist, project managers. And when we find the product, world is usually a suddenly 1/3 of that size. You know, team might consist of one or two or three designers and a client, you know, our product owner and the I guess the foundation of this topic is why I need to know all of these things. Like,

you know, you should have a specialty. It's forever, you know, wiring things for proper management. Five minutes. User experience, interaction design, beautiful design, innovation. And who knows?

Yeah, yeah. Even based ology could have any one of those areas. Is going thio really really help? Yeah, You're just like this proven sx e my needs more. Yeah, you buy vegetable followers. But,

you know, I think a lot of people who have come from website backgrounds are used to having a team members that hand them wire frames and say you design this like I fought through the flow and you make it pretty and that just worked it right away. Everyone on very degree projects have to do certain things. We have to manage it. We have to decide if this is a good product. We have to perfect the close

of business goals. It's true, and I want to hate on Tribble. I love, I love when you know if I if I have a chance to post that gets, you know, some lights, it feels really good. And I don't think there's anything wrong I hear a lot about, you know, people that are big product design or, you know, just people just start over it, you know? But I still think it's a great place to draw inspiration from. You know, I know I can take a position for everything,

but I still think Robin, it seems your peers didn't seem like kind of techniques and, like, you know, things that are popular like there's something wrong. It's cool to draw inspiration from. It's just like maybe not the greatest thing. When that is, it's all about the shot as opposed to you. It's all about, you know, a user that wants to play with I have a delightful experience. So,

you know, maybe we could just, you know.

So to be perfectly honest with you, we got off track, and we need to rectify that and to help you guys get through it with us. Here's one messed up pretty bad. Um, I don't know what to say. Thank you, Fi. No, no. So apologies about that now, back to the podcast.

So they talk about the tool belt that product designer needs to have a right to be a man and a fun size. And, you know, that's the combination of user experience. Conceptual design, ideation, visual design.

Oh, right, right.

And hopefully communicating. Why? Everyone needs a very root of these skills is

all right. So the first one's project strategy, like there's private strategy. Excuse your experience. I mean, this is there sort of right, prostrate. You sort of like thinking about one of the goals like this APP wants to help people categorize their shoes. So we think about that. We think What does this which does this feature Nina Chet or sorry that this happened check in feature? No, because it's bashes, you know? So I think that that's sort of like a very down version of the product. strategy is, but the user experience is like, how did they experience like those categories? How was the experience? Like drilling down from whatever

used to be someone else with this, like an agency Have a VP of strategy or something that would do the paperwork for you? Yeah. Can hotwire range of documents on your desk like what you're doing? You know, we're all for bringing us all together, you know? So it may be your client that roses maybe, you know, the designer of the noses, but it's basically the skills, like being able to look at that, breathe and saying OK, well, what is required to do this? You know, if I'm fighting to shoot this product that does, Excellency, what figures required to make

great thio pretty thinking about Well, what is it he's actually need and how we actually focused on designing? But it's best for them not necessarily being introvert designer like this, because it's pretty. Looks good. Yeah, you are skills to develop in case you have thio not only like, put yourself in their shoes, but they also have to not be subjective at the same time. Okay, What if I was this user, you know, But they have to be like, okay, can be subjective, have like, like,

really weigh on like a very pert with very personal preference. You know, I really like blue, So I think I would be drunk Blue, you know? So it's just kind of get over yourself.

And even though that you know, teams these days may or may not have someone specialized does information that your actions were all doing wrong pulling these someone assets. I want to see a flow where someone can check in. Sometimes the right tool might be to design it sometimes, right? Created user flow diagram a great sketch or to create a wire frame. And we just have no right way to do that. Like we're not necessarily doing wire brings. Designs were kind of pulling from those. Wait, does the options. We have different deliverables that quickly communicate that which is different than the way it used to be. Like I said, were you someone used to do that for you And you can just really get by today is to meet someone. Yeah,

yeah. I think you need thio like at least be able to understand rudimentary like parts of that, you know, like, how do you how to do that yourself? You need thio. And also, if you have, like, an expert opinion, you know, if you do have an X for Bree fine. That's great. But you can't You need to go in with designing. Actually, there's something that you really drunk yourself or refund from. You know,

what's interesting in terms of strategy is like as a designer, You know, I have this before where you come in these crazy, like blue sky ideas. But I said it is throwing them out there. You actually have to figure out what steps you take to get that in terms of, like, how many hellos is gonna take. You know, you were gonna have a fashion company spreadable to say to get here, you have to trade that road map to get to where you want to be. I think that's still in itself. Yeah, definitely. It's a dream. A little bit,

you know, it was like this, but they are also same person has to go back. You know that. Okay, let's figure out how should get.

That's very true because, you know, in today's world is all about getting the market and getting that user base. And you can't believe this shit everything you want. You know, like square, for example, they started with a vision like Well, way want to change the way people view transactions. So the first person wrapped very basic, and it wasn't till later that they released, you know, the register or the wallet or the marketplace that someone had to think about where they were going to get there and what percent rights will be the minimum project. Shit,

right, because you have to balance is that you have to releases products that still conveys the idea that you want people to feel about part time. Not really, really see the 100% part of, you know, it could be right. That's very fine balance.

And especially in space world, you don't have six months to create something in sure that you got to four weeks or whatever whittle away at something. I think it's thean trusting thing. That's pressure. This product designers these days is instead of maybe it's more opportunity where you used to have to decide whether you're gonna be like you. Extra interaction design have visual design. We're all now sharing the skill sets. And one of the things that this is even more interesting to me is part of that created. The user experience is defining, like, what, one or two moments we'll create a memorable experiences just to use for an example, like when we all remember about Square, I would imagine that most people remember the cool little animation or what it feels like a sign. And that's what you were.

My side. Yeah, that that time I was remember fresh. It was like a little trying like a rocket.

Those those of the small details that people overlook because at the end of day, that's why you're gonna remember that. Remember a particular experience based on some little moment that the delight you this way and I think part in all this, you know, strategy, user experience. All this defining Lee. What kind of special moments? Memorable moments. Really

great. And in terms of tools, you know, I think that is very important to kind of capture the high level ideas and person actually came up with, You know, whether it's wire frames or user percent, you know, you have to make sure that your team has somethingto look back. Thio. If you get too far track, let's look back at these, you know, Discovery briefs or use our planets and level yourself back down to Earth. That's why generating should work off, like examining with climate constantly. Sometimes it's this this features grow in 70. If there's,

you know, great. Are you realize something later? Wait, really wait for this. You watch, like this still creep kind of thing. So it doesn't get to two out of, like the original thing that did this to you. Like, you know, one score features are sort of defined. Do that together. As a team with products company. You have that definition of those core features, and then you ask some other plan.

So what is the plan for the score features? Yeah, usually this EVP of all they were towards. But you can't break that up into milestones like a road map for just sort of try and keep on that. You can measure yourself how productive being how far you're going. How much time is left before you get in Ukiah, if you're following this road,

yeah, you know like, you know, stretch this out so far. But I think the three of us experienced this firsthand yesterday when we were working with a client with the initial brief. The client's goal is to shit a minimum are as quickly as possible to the user base. And then, after doing a bit of research, they realized that it will be more powerful if they way were spent a little bit more and extending the features. So what does that mean? Designers? It means everything it means. Like whether you have, you know, two or three months to, like, do the minimum of 4 to 6 months to do you know something? Something different. And you kind of just gotta keep yourself in check. Because in this world, there's no project schedules.

Not until you find, so because I think shit, so you know so much. I mean, what? Well, no, no, you're actually saying is constant sexual. Yeah, yeah. No, I know what you're saying. Wait, but but the thing is that all of these things happen together, like conceptual side and visuals are actually two portions of design. We always have to keep like the strategy in my book.

Yeah, so what way? Like that glorious moment arrives and you have your core features to find room ready. Actually, start designing like your house. You know, wire frames and stuff like that. Like what is this happened? Looks like you start asking yourself that. What is the nature of the app? What is the aesthetic feeling at the out gets a conceptual design, which is, I mean, that's where, like the pretty pixels, the dribble shots start coming out. Conceptual design phase right,

which is in the client service world One area or most hiccups. Because that's when that's the one part of a phase where a client is always eager to get to you because they want to see what you can do. And some you're That's what just happened. Yeah, it is also the point where you actually defines everything else that happens from that moment on. So, like it's almost like being in a way like when, when you're first starting a project with your work at company. Our client like getting into this conceptual design phase, you're still kind of testing the waters like your cock killer. Your client is trying to see what you do. You're trying to see what they do like strategic vision and me. This is This is really hard for me personally. You know, it is for 16 years, but it took me at least 10 years to get to a point where I felt comfortable, like producing original ideas like right.

I was always good at, like, systematic design in the production. Little stuff like being will call with original ideas is really challenging for me. While some people you know, some of the you know, do your people these days are right off the bat, too strong at Craze is we correct? The other part is, you know, in simplest terms, it's really to me about creating a strong vision that a product stakeholder team can get behind so that you can flip the switch and start executing the rest of products. But it's possible. So it's about selling your ideas to plan our

thing. This, like fax to stand on because that is a problem. If you just sort of make conceptual design choices based on you work for references as opposed to actually measurable goals, you sort of feels good, has a design, have some ammunition. Like what? We did this for a reason. You know, we are, you know, like a good example is we've worked on I asked that Have we have to consider the user's surrounding? Sometimes it's in a restaurant. The night you No way. They're gonna be looking at something we don't want to see. Like a really bright streets.

We use a lot of white. Are you? Are you? I mean, a lot of dark colors, so it would be a little bit more pleasant for them to come over and start in the rest. It happens. That is like a solid foundation to stand on. And if a jury

my experience working in product companies is that a lot of people don't do this. What what happiness people produce about. He is the ideal and just keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. And no one over know we're guessing where it's because they never really took the time to say Okay, well, this is our user. And this is our road map strategy. We just find out where the best approaches for this person you

start exceptional signing cart launch. Like when you get to open up that for shop statue illustrate Whatever you're working on, it's a blank canvas. It's probably before you shoot the arrow. It's good to have a heart, at least creates hard. It works like General Target, where you're trying to go. That's gonna solve questions you're not sure about. So you make the header and then the head of state. I know, I know.

It is, really, you know, higher level. Our direction stuff sets the tone for everything else. Like, you know, does it have flat buttons or or are things things that greatness is more perfect or minimal? Visit is white or black, but he says, the light of my contract says it is an apple or an orange. It's like, you know, narrowing down all the like. If there's a 1,000,000 different opportunities, your design project, it's settling down the millions of options and said that you were three the most capable for this product works for this particular user base and then quickly coming up with because it's always gonna be revived, You know, throughout your lifetime.

That's what about product design. Is that like you design something with based on that's not your guest like wonderment Which school? But it's like when your question about it, I'd rather have, like, a little bit of, like facts system like it feels good to be like what? We're trying to do this for this reason, and that is sort of like wound within, like communicating not to like your fellow designers, you know, but as well, the whole team. This is why we're establishing this ecstatic. It's for these reasons. Yes, you know, you have something

you know. You don't have to solve it. Like in a series of mock ups like you, you can use tools like odds are mood boards or Stiles. Stiles Thio quickly create multiple ideas to get in front of your team toe with the service of your willing, you know, hearing How are Yeah, right. You know, that's fit right. You don't necessarily have to design a whole lot to do that. You could be a simple as an exercise. Laying a few buttons and different brain freeze of

contrast is focusing on a future flow contacts. Focusing on what would make this section

is in this particular item is a thing that I just think most people struggle with you know, especially junior folks, because it takes time to hone the skills because it sze combination during any ISS. It's also about, like selling men, understand, user and

and it only cost about the solution. Yeah, that's the same. You have, like a backbone from the state and they ask why? And for that reason oh, and the working are out, you won't sign management.

Well, conceptual design, which I guess you could also call art direction. Yeah, is is one of the things just like you acts. That kind is always happening, right? So you take a complex product. Let's say you know that you know has 20 different features and then you have three designers working on girl trying to solve that problem. They're all focused on flow it. Everyone still has Thio work within certain parameters, like, you know, about this choir black, and sometimes we'll get changed. So you have to like, you know,

keep that constant communication with the team about why things were happening. You know, the boundaries that you stick into because, you know, making inconsistent would break things, you know, in a prototype, for example, you know, you could burn, you know, if things were changing radically from section section may break the user's perception

and in context, to it. You see, well, everything's been dark. Why is this white, you know, like That's okay, Dad, do something wrong.

I know that's necessary when I want to design management in there. But I mean, design management is also a really important thing because, you know, for Project Contracting Team, I think everyone will have very agrees on some projects that might be a supporting designer, while others they may be the lead designer, while others may be like credit director

like like places do that. You know, that sort of thing really leads on certain projects within those leads, even like participating other other, you know, accounts together. I feel like our nation is more a little more silent in their teams. Like that team is on the Pepsi account. They forever living.

But at some point all of our careers people have been, you know, a press design, a creative director. 11 of the interesting things for me were riding. Trying to learn is how to just get away, right, like, how do you get out of the way and let other people that have really that yes, the and not provide a road block my own particular around particular feelings and let and provided the environment in which these ideas could come before the guy you know, especially is sexual design. It's about taking all these different skills your team has figuring out, well, their spring sorry, how they produce something he and you know from a design management side. You may not be doing work personally. You're just trying form this year,

but you seem to go. They can get. Yes, I think I think you know, it's not really related to this that I think I was just kind of important when you know it's a lead or fall over.

Yeah, that's it. Different sections of conceptual czar and visuals I'm honestly, I feel like we sort of like references. Officials get visuals about following it, and it's a good thing balling the interaction design that you set forth and wire frames that sort of thing and balancing all of the things that have occurred before that point that, uh, the project's goals in anything you're thinking about the conceptual design tone that's been sort of now down about that wire frames the interaction design. You think about all the stupid things and then you sort of like build yourself upon like, this design, like that's what they start actually like getting easier, you know, created this work fired life, being able to have skill with your prototyping and actually doing visual design production design to being to know when they're captive with art gaps. When you're actually build out this flow,

I feel like that's really need it like you know, the load. The most people might consider the lower little design task to me personally or some of them were important things, right? Because you could have someone that's really strong conceptually saying all this needs to be high contrast. It was, you know, right. But when the person that the part of the process is actually creating a product is you're actually solving all close the whole system right now, I'm just like I was looking Feel up. But how? What kind of adjustments need to make that insufferable investments you need to make to you when you thought was the floor in Iraq's design to create something that actually gives the user from point A to point B. A productive use of late and thanks constantly change like there's no waste that necessarily creative. I inquire frames redefined Constance. Right? And it's gonna be, you know,

in the world we live in your fun size. It's all about demonstrating that flow, right? How can you know if the goal is to create a floor user can log into their account and changed the password, presenting that work in a flow format where you can demonstrate that it's possible so that you move on.

Actually, he brings up a really important point that I'm talking about, which is like being able to manage your product, right? You bring that way, need clothes, how you manage. How did you know? Of course, Exactly how do you not like straight from what you intended to do with the client eternity To do what you usually you know what this pounding still creep. How do you estimate the work? That's right. Very important to know how long before you know back in the days would be treasures like, Hey, you have x amount of hours to do This work, I think, is a part of that.

Nowadays You have to be like, Hey, it has taken me this long to do this to implement this feature. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You do that by product. Image is something I think you do studio over. Like the last year and 1/2 or so. Like were you guys I feel it guesses understanding it has evolved a swell title because I I like you used to work in this thing. You New York, and I have a project manager, and that product manager would tell me almost every day because they needed it. Keep that part of the track and keep the client right. But now nowadays is a product manager. That is that you have you cried?

Yeah. Trying to keep the vision exactly like prop project managers that we're gonna agencies I feel like trying to decline. And the product manager is trying to division and hopefully what the beginning users want to experience. But now well, to make sure that they are estimating their work, write themselves inside. I need a project manager. Okay. This It's interesting for designers that hey, I must track especially

you. I think the project manager was a byproduct of what had happened in the past with big projects, you know, think about you know, five years ago when a big website could cost a $1,000,000 right? In a lot of people lying disease with so projects at six scope, they would say, you know, you're gonna pay us 1/2 a $1,000,000 for a $1,000,000. At the end of this engagement, you're gonna have a final left. And the project manager's job you really think about it was basically a bully. It was easy money. Radicals

didn't have a project,

that this was a big problem in the company that I used to run because we would try to work with product companies. And they work that way. You know, it wasn't till I discovered when I realized that, you know, as a designer, it was personally my responsibility to sit at the conference room table with progress on five managers, engineers and commit on the spot. So what I would deliver into these not delivered six months, But whatever delivered to

that responsibility, shoulders, because you have a designer are making your own. Yes. So it's up to you to be transparent, honest with your team.

Yeah, And at the same time, group just said, Like making sure you keep true to division, right? If clients asking you to add a widget that does, you know, takes tips like doesn't widget that allow someone to accept this really necessary for this product? You know, because the these kind of projects that we're all working on today, you know, especially mobile our small teams. You know, you don't have to You have to three people

because we're like where we ask fun sized transition away from the term client servicing and going into client partnership. Because as a client service is agency. I feel like that is a connotation where you're servicing your client, which true our part. We push back and it's more of a partner. Like were people each 110% honest. Like you know what? This is a good products as as quietly you're hiring agency. Client service is is a service. And, like basically, you are serving your that servant like we don't want you to do this. You do that, you know? So it's like it's harder to push away on something when like that, as like a design team That's sort of come along like, yeah,

I believe in private. I want to be part of these. Come along and we're sort of like rooting for, you know, I kind of going with them and make sure things are on task with what that's supposed to be.

And it kind of goes both ways, right? Like as meat grown in fun size, we realize that the people that we brought in their specializing in product should also know the fundamentals of design because they're in the room with the designers there. It's a team start for the resulting things

as t just team are with your partner.

And so if a product manager is 9% product product manager Strategic, maybe 10% design Focus designer, My beauty officer, 9% design focus or whatever their personal skills status, but still have the fundamentals of this. And I think you know what you'll find that car companies is that people aren't necessarily looking for just product manager, just designer. They're putting together these teams that have very degrees of expertise in all these areas because they were all any throwing ever fired.

Yeah, it sounds complicated, but really you know it's talented people that care about, you know, they're like, Look, guys, this is all so we have to figure out, like way want your design skills, But we want you to think about the whole picture. Like that's That's a product designers like were you like, to be quite honest with you guys at the beginning, we started this podcast about his tool belt. We wanted to talk about the actual, like, micro level tools. I already had a vision about schedule,

photo shop, and I thought we decided that we felt like a tool belt for a part of designer in 2014 isn't bad. You just need to know more than just design. You have to be focused on the overall ecosystem. You have to know about part of management about how to diminish yourself about, you know, managing your time. So your ideas, you know, with having all that context, though like the people are actually hands on, you're gonna get less weird. Stuff comes out of nowhere. Has didn't you know, have contacts that many like think of something completely out of context, is gonna feel much more like cohesive capital?

Yeah, everybody team a lot of skills. I would say, You know, we're just being honest. I'm saying that the majority are Team is like their strength is designed, you know, like we're designers. We just sort of like try and bring ourselves out of our design shells a little bit. You seem like it's all these different parts, you know, off the problem.

And, you know, into the quite frank from Natalie. Nice perspective. We try really hard to make sure the scales are balanced. Not on Lee. You know, everyone is. Everyone on our team has a very degree of U ex chops. First design transfers is like really art direction chops, chops. We've also made a flea to heat that balance plus the expertise of weapon Mobile, right? Because, like, you know, kind of related to this.

But like, you know, product design isn't just mobile, and it's not this Web. It's that any one of us is thrown into designing products but also probably have to solve a problem over, uh, you know, no more weapons screens for, you know, you know, a better platform mobile. So it's like it's balancing all those things out, but you may not know one person might be perfect in all areas, and that's great, because you care that was with someone else. 19.

Absolutely, I think start stand. I think. Probably checked. Manager's gonna have to at least no designed these experience as much as a designer would need to know about project management products. Yeah, so I want to kind of close the whole context in saying that we've tried to give, like, our understanding of, like, product design in these last four episodes. You sort of just been like answering the questions that we were asking, too. What is a product design and what they do and what what is it all like? Incorporate. You know, it's really help us do as a team,

like just to talk about it and trying to find these things. It's done a lot for our internal structure, like we've been working that out, and we're really happy where we are right now. So it's still well, I wanted to say to you that were you planning on switching the format a little bit off the podcast from here on out, like we've been really, like, focused on what we're gonna do with these big planning meetings on podcast. We're gonna sort of just now we've covered the things that we set out to say, you know, about what is what is the prize is on your all about our stretcher worse and how we work with clients and gave that price is sort of round it through that, and I mean everything we're talking about getting to what we were just having more fun with in doing it more often. So

way. Love to have guests. Yeah. Anyone listening wants to be a guest for is a designer and your product manager. Like reach out, Lis know that hopefully will be. Will be doing

more often. Yeah, citizenships. Yeah. Yeah. And like topic request to its we're definitely at no shortage of topic requests. Way have. A lot of people have asked us to talk about certain things like, you know, scientists and tricks and stuff like that will touch on that sort of thing, too. But we certainly want Thio here from anybody who's like has, like, a question like, we'd love to go down that Germany and explore what the answer to that is with, you know? Yeah.

So we have, like, a couple of guests. Awesome stuff. Yeah. All right.