Welcome back to the hustle podcast. Today we're gonna talk with Andy Vitali, lead interaction designer at 3 a.m. healthcare in the Minneapolis area. Andy's team has been getting a lot of notice lately, and a few articles have been written about the way that they work in FastCo design. The envision Blawg and usability matters. Today Andy and I were going to talk about how to measure the impact of user experience, you ex processes and how to grow user experience competency within a large organization. Here's Andy Vitali. Hey, Andy, What's

up, man? Hey, man, what's

going on? Oh, just drinking bourbon hanging out Friday tryingto wind down the week. What about you?

Same thing. It's been a long week. Just sitting in an empty office looking out the window. It's 70 degrees and sunny. It looks like it's gonna be an awesome weekend. So real excited.

That's cool. You got any getting cold plans?

I'm gonna go do some apple picking this weekend. I've never been, and it's a pretty big thing in Minnesota and, you know, you pretty much think apple picking is like Fall October even. But here, like this, is private season for it, so I might as well take advantage of it while I can.

Speaking apples. What? You would say something about your apple

experience? Yeah. You know, I I ordered the iPhone seven plus and I really wanted the black one, and the black one was sold out within, like, a couple of minutes. So I got a gold one, and when the golden first came out, I wanted a gold one, but I couldn't get it because it sold out. So now that I finally have a gold one, I don't want it. I wanted the black one, but I also have to be first to have it. So I'm stuck with this 256 gig gold one that I got today. When it came a t and T,

they said it didn't have a SIM card in it or the lady on the phone didn't understand how to set up the SIM card. And I was like, This never happened before. Every time I get it, it's just plug and play and it knows and told me that my T and T account expired. So an hour on the phone with them. Finally, it's working, but at the same time, I have to set up everything all over again because I set it up as a new phone. So the watch, all of the notification settings, it's gonna be a mess. I don't know why I do this to

myself. Every well, I think we know exactly what you'll be doing this weekend. Then that's true, Okay? And he won't you give us an introduction. Tell us what you're what you're

doing. Sure, I'm currently lead interaction designer for three M's health care business. Group three is actually in health care were a lot more than just post it notes and Scotch tape those air iconic brands that everybody is familiar with. But we actually make physical and digital products for patients, payers and providers. When we talk about patients, everybody knows what that is. We're all patients at some point, unfortunately, but when we talk about providers were talking about doctors, nurses, dentists, orthodontists, anyone that provides care to somebody and pairs or insurance companies. We support six divisions ranging from dental an orthodontic products to food safety, drug delivery system, even enterprise software with our health information systems division. And it's primarily where I've been focusing lately.

That's that's pretty cool, man. I mean, you know, I talked to a lot of people. I'm sure you do, like, you know, like in all these consumer product companies were all the rage. But wouldn't you agree that there's just unlimited awesome opportunity to to do great things, that with Enterprise Cos

Yeah, and especially for me and healthcare like three M itself, It's a lot of hard work and dedication to be able to deliver successful solutions at a company this size and scope. That's kind of what makes me love coming to work every day. But it's really a privilege when you're in a position to do something mean if meaningful, when you have this opportunity to do so, that impacted. To me, it seems life changing. That's kind of what brought me here, and that's your health care is for me. So

So you know, a lot of people work at design agencies or product companies. Where does design is just part of everyday life? Everyone's already bought into that look, what are some of the challenges that that you guys face and in a larger organization, and how do you guys tackle that problem.

So 3 a.m. is 100 plus year old company with the deep history in manufacturing and engineering. So even though we've got a team of 125 designers globally, design is still kind of new to three to a lot of people, especially having this co located design function that we have now. So it's a lot of the same problems that everybody else faces. It's always kind of evangelizing, but it's more than evangelizing because as designers, we kind of like to talk about ourselves and what we do a lot. But at the end of the day, we have to educate people on what we do, because it's more valuable when other people are evangelizing for us than when we're evangelizing for ourselves. But at the end of the day, we do want everyone to understand what we do, but at some point what our team likes to do, we call it show Don't tell and again that sounds like Hey, that's what we do all the time. But really,

in an organization the size of three m, you have to continually move things forward through design and designers. I mean, that's the power of design. We recognize there's always a path to improve the current state. So for us in health care, that's kind of quality of care. That's compliance, its accuracy. It's avoiding hospital readmissions. It's patient engagement, whatever. We work on those tools. Those solutions. They've got exponential impact for medical devices to the displays that are on those medical devices to digital solutions. It delivers a valued experience to someone else.

Yeah, really internally, we've gotta. It's great when we have a project that's really successful for us. Success is measured primarily through productivity right now. So if we could improve productivity and then the sea, it goes up to the level of the CEO or anybody on that operating committee. Wouldn't there actually showing the value of designs, everyone else? That's when people want to work with us more.

Yeah, um, you know, for when I think when we met on Twitter and I looked you up, found you Arlington is like, Oh, he's at 3 a.m. I was like, I guess I never really, really thought I wonder what you know what three in would be doing in the digital space and then in our conversations leading up to this podcast. I've done more research. You guys were working on a lot of lot of stuff. I know you can't really talk about anything. So we'll we'll try toe navigate this conversation about around the way you guys do things. And one of the things that stood out to me about, um, how you guys work. And first,

I just want to read this quote. I believe this is a quote that you wrote, and it goes. Our design approaches to regularly connect with colleagues and other disciplines, like marketing and R and D as strategic partners. When are you X and business teams work together with clear vision and goals, we find greater success through a shared commitment to off. Ah, I can't say the word off Tennessee, Uh, but it's authentic. And so I think, you know, for for those of us in the the design space and probably everyone this listen to this podcast. We understand why that's important, but I think what's really interesting here would be to learn about how you guys do that,

you know, because you can you can have a really talented designer, a design team. Ah, and they could maybe work really great together. But what happens when you take that really talented designer design team and you put him in a large organization?

Yeah, so that's kind of our daily struggle, and we're working on it. So let me paint a picture of the company. So about three years ago, there wasn't even a U X team, so to grow, from not having a team to double digits within those three years, Thio growing exponentially over the next few years, we really have to think about how we come into a company that's so well regarded and respected and stands on this century plus foundation of innovation that comes from marketing and R and D and engineering and not really designed. How do we break into that matrix? And each team has their own agenda and agenda. Sounds like a funny word. So let's kind of rephrase that. His vision. So they've got a vision to make an impact and also money, right?

Obviously financially. So three M's a big jungle with about 90,000 employees and less than 1/100 of 1%. Are you ex designers? So for us, we really have to make a difference in the enterprise, and for us to do that, it's kind of bringing something to the table. So we're involved in projects, sometimes from J one concept phase. Other times, you know, it's a little bit later than we want to, because we don't have the Ben with to support every project that we have. But really, it's connecting all of our different stakeholders and getting their vision and taking that designers lens to their vision and sharing that with them to help make their vision and our vision a combined three envision. Yo, we like to start with design briefs, those air really important. We get as much information as we can from all the different stakeholders, and we put it back into one document and then we share it back out with them.

Wait. So is this before it like, is this a starting point or or do you first have to make a case for why they why they need to talk to you or work with you or me with you?

So for us, really, Projects traditionally didn't come with design having a seat at the table from the very early onset, so What we have to do sometimes is bring our own seat to the table and prove that design should really be involved in strategy and early concepts and ideation. So what we do is we find out about these projects that are going on. We reach out to whoever might be that product owner, and we set up time with them or understand where meetings are and we show up, we listen. And from there we interject, providing as much value as we can.

That's interesting. So do you guys kind of operate? I mean, I don't know, another parallel to this all to say, like Google Ventures designed, like your design team, that you obviously don't have been with toe work on all of these things. But you're looking for these opportunities to increase value for the design is I mean, does that does that sound right? Is that kind of like what you guys are doing?

It is we When? When I started. That's kind of how we got on board with projects, primarily. But now, as we've building out the competency and health care, we have a design officer and our healthcare design officer meets with all of the division leaders to prioritize the projects and then based on our bend with we do kind of work on where we could add the most value. So

yeah, yeah, that's that's right. That's really cool. Um, and I really think think of it that way. But, I mean, I'm sure that that I'm sure that most people that work at an enterprise can empathize with that. I mean, but, you know, the thing is, you know, you gotta build that trust, I guess. Right?

Um, how do you like before you guys get started and go down? You're you're approaching your process, which we'll get to later. How do you How do you How do you How do you get that? That buying and trust initially to get your get your guys involved in what they're doing.

So in order to get that trust, we have to build that personal relationship with all of our stakeholders. So we really go out and spend one on one time with all of them tow, understand kind of not only the project that we're gonna be working on and where that market value is in that market landscape. But really, we want to understand from them how they interpret or anticipate being able to work with us and where we provide value. And sometimes they only want us to come in very late in the game and make things look pretty. But our team, we're not really here to make things look pretty. We're here to be a partner. We're not here to be a service model or surface agency, so we have the ability and we're empowered as designers to say no if we don't agree with something, So ultimately, we've got a kind of understand that landscape and build that relationship and show them where we can add value. So for us, it's really not waiting around for conversations to take place. We really have to understand the problem and start sketching out solutions and sharing it with the team, because you can talk about what you're gonna do all the time and you're not gonna get anywhere. So yeah, it's as simple as a sketch. Just show up with something and it's a talking point

for everybody. Yeah, it removes subjectivity from the table, allows you to talk about something and and in sort of a line on the fact that you guys actually have common goals and you know you're not working against each other. It's actually possible for you guys to work together. Um, you know, I've never worked at a at a big enterprise, but one of my clients who is a guy that I grew up with? I've known him since junior high works for one of the largest computer manufacturers in the recline of ours. And I see him, you know, dealing with this stuff every day. I think he would actually probably ah, loved love to meet you. Learn about how you guys navigate this. Um, could you tell us a little bit about what your design team looks like in size? And what? The Conference C's and sort of structure, skill sets and all that sort of stuff look like?

So right now we're supporting six different divisions in the health care business group. Are you? Ex team is about 10 people, and we've got a few industrial designers also, so they're working on a lot of the physical products. Yeah. Are you ex team right now has a few visual designers, a few interaction designers and those people are playing kind of multiple roles wearing multiple hats. Ultimately, we wanna have a few specialists that can specialize in information, architecture, strategy and research content strategy. And then the interaction and visual design roles will kind of cross over into those other areas. Another role that we do need a specialist I feel in would be a front and developer because a lot of designers are not great at coding they the basics. So we really do need, you know, some robustness and our prototypes that we would need a developer. Four.

Isn't it crazy how that's changed? Like I think you and I both have been around for a while when designers were also coating and then then the industry went into specialist, and now it's kind of coming back around. You know, that that friend and development thing is is coming back in like the need for a design technologist. You know, a friend of developer who is a designer.

Yeah, it's it's crazy. Everything seems to come full circle. One of the things that we realized is when we work with the business team, they want to know that they have a designer on the project and to them. It doesn't matter if it's an information architect or interaction designer. They just want to know that it's a designer. So we do have to wear those multiple hats to make the business feel comfortable. So they don't really as much as we educate them on what the individual roles could be. They don't understand that, or they don't have patience for that. They just want to know that they've got a designer who could get the job done. And that's kind of helped us build relationships with them when they see the same face all the time.

Yeah, um, so on your team. I'm just curious because, you know, I'm curious from the perspective of you know, the point of view that I'm I'm hiring designers, and I talk to other people about what they look for. So all all of these different skill sets need to be available. Interaction, design, use a research U S. Strategy. I a visual design you I content strategy, friend of development. When you when you guys were hiring designers, Um,

do you expect them to be two dimensional or three dimensional? How do you How do you, um how do you decide whether someone's a good fit for your team because you're you are a small team and you're supporting so many different divisions like we talked about like chronic care, food saythe, drug delivery, infection prevention, world care, right? And then, in addition of that, there's all these things need to happen. Um, how do you guys evaluate designers? I'm just curious.

So we try to bring in designers that can handle multiple roles. We have them come in. We'd go through a portfolio review like anything else, but really, for us, it's about their ability to speak to others and explain kind of what they're working on in a language that everybody understands. The thing that's important is that they need to kind of be able to talk to the business in a way that the business understands what they're saying and not have to explain our designer speak to them. So we look for that presentation skills and just kind of they've got to be a really a good fit and be ableto handle kind of overlapping roles. And it's been challenging to find that we've been looking and as we're growing at our team, it's still a challenge. You know, kind of having a U X title is still new. I mean, you know, when we talk about how long graphic designers have had that that title that role or industrial designers, being a U X designer is still relatively the last five or 10 years. I mean,

you can't break it out in tow. Specialties interaction design has been around longer than that, but it feels like they're kind of all rolling up into U ex designers. And one of the things that we see is that people are just throwing you x or you. I designed on their resume, and they're really not that type of designer. So we really do have to kind of vet them and understand their skill set. So it's been It's been a challenge for

us. Yeah, and I think I think one of the things that would help elaborate on that is your process. So, you know, just for people listening to understand, like how you guys, you know, are structured and how you work as a team. There's been several articles, um, lately that have been written about the way that you guys work. Um, fast. FastCo design um, I talked to you guys about how did his had a design with discipline. There was an article that was,

um um, publishing digital telepathy and usability matters. And I think all these those are just three examples. But I think what that points to is that there's something special going on in the your approach to, um, getting shit done are doing design and even like, design research. And And I was wondering if you could You don't have thio necessarily go through everything or talk about things that you can't talk about. But what can you say about the way the like once you get that seated, like once you built that trust with this? Ah, partner team. How do you How do you guys work together? Not just how did that U ex team works together? But how does the U ex teamwork and how does the X teamwork with that other partner?

Okay, so usually our projects are prioritized for us by our healthcare design officer. And then once we have those projects, we reach out to the individual stakeholders. We conduct stakeholder interviews and from there we try to build out our design brief our design brief really helps us gain alignment from all of the stakeholders. And then we try to understand how they envision the interactions with the customer. What those pain points or needs? Maybe from there, we really want to go out and then observe the customer to make sure to validate that what our stakeholders believe is actually correct.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's interesting to like we're designing to see we have the same belief system. You got it. You gotta You gotta watch users use things. Um, do you guys have any struggles and getting budgets for that, or do you guys just do it anyway like, it's just something you guys do like, um, I'm really curious about that. I mean, from a personal view, because, ah, lot of our custom, like a lot of our customers would love to do user testing,

for example, or, you know, contextual inquiry and all these sort of things, but they don't always have the budget for it, but we just do it anyway. Even if we do it for free, because it's kind of like we just believe that it's due diligence to get our job done correctly, Um, and it's gonna be hard to. It is hard to coordinate all that stuff. Um, that's that, then maybe a whole other topic for the for the podcast, obviously. But I'm just curious how you guys, how you guys even get like in front of the users.

So for us, that's the beauty of working at 3 a.m. We've got a lot of customers that love to be involved in the process of improving our products. It's easy for our sales team to reach out to any of our medical coding customers and ask if we couldn't send a team of designers on site to observe and ask them questions and share some prototypes with them and get feedback and kind of understand how they feel and how they interact with our products so that we can then take that information and compare it to what the business team kind of interpreted that as. So for us, it's identifying those gaps, especially in work flow, between how we assume the customers years, our product and how they actually do. And we know that customers want to find the easiest way to do things, no matter what field they are in, no matter what tasks they perform. They wanted to be a sufficient and seamless as possible. So a lot of times they build their own workflow, and we have to understand that we can't retrain them the way we expect them to do things. We have to figure out how to solve the problems for the way that they actually do work. So for us to go out to see customers in any of our divisions, no matter who those users are,

we usually don't have a tough time finding them. And it's a simple as a phone call, going out there once and then getting them interested in being a part of the process for a few months while we go through some design sprints. And from there, once we have the prototypes built, we could use software like User Zoom and do remote user testing.

Yeah, that's cool. So, uh, also from our earlier conversation, Um, what's interesting is that through this process, I'm sure you're using three in post it notes, too, you know, put all the user you know, feedback and and, you know, you know, capturing all the very steps of your process on the wall, which is interesting because you're using a 3 a.m. tool to do work for three m. That's that's got to be kind of interesting for for three employees to write to see three and products being used in a design process.

Yeah, I think the Post it team, they're actually the floor above us where we are in our new design space. So it's great Thio to bring our business colleagues in and let them see how we do use a lot of our three on products in our process. Post its as designers posted, sir. Kind of our go to tool. Yeah, you know, any time we can sketch something out, have a white boarding session and for us white boarding sessions, even though we have white boards, we have easel pad post. It's so those. They're kind of our white boards, but it just it's weird because they say you're never more than 10 feet away from a three M product, and that's based on a lot of the adhesives and tapes and materials that they use. But

as does wow, that's that's That's pretty. That's pretty crazy to think that that's that's probably very, very accurate, right from a post it note to some three and technology that hangs pictures to, you know, tape, right? You know, like I mean, who knows, right? Like it's

everywhere. Exactly. It's like our new design center has so many three on products. Even the paint that we use has some sort of three of material in it. I'm really bad at speaking to the business groups outside of health care. But when we do talk about, like having post it notes at our disposal, like as designers, it's to have a closet full of post it notes is like

Amazing. Yeah, So I'm gonna just go and put in a request for some for some post doesn't, um, the three and have an office in Austin.

We do. I think it's our elect. I think it's our e b. G. So I want to say that's our electronics, an energy business group. But if I'm completely wrong than I'm in

trouble, but that's that's okay, it's a big company. Yeah, um, what's that rest of that process look like? Or if you prefer, we could maybe even talk about what the challenges are for designing in health care in today's world, with the availability of data and things like that we have to work with. I mean, you know, I think some of the most innovative companies that have worked with my company funds eyes have been in the healthcare space, but is it seems kind of hard to some of the summit. I mean, especially when you're talking about, like, accessibility to data, it's It's a little bit easier to maybe innovate on the on the experience designed. It's I find that it's really hard to make things happen just because of the limitation to data.

Yeah, that and the security and privacy of the dead also. But again, we work in a clinical setting, so we have a lot of access to, um, patient health. So I don't have access to patient health records, but the people that use our software, the hospital groups, they have access to those patient records and all of the notes and the medical encounters that are happening. So

that's called an EMR,

right? Yeah, the EMR is kind of that patient information and that initial medical record, But then let's say you're you're in a hospital for a couple of days and every doctor that sees you and every nurse and every test, all of that documentation is put into ah system. And if you're a three time customer than it's a three m system from there, your people, nurses, doctors are able to kind of keep track of what's going on with the patient. But on the side that we really focus on is the billing side, too. So our medical coders we're kind of taking that documents through a natural language processor, and we're suggesting groupings of code and suggesting ways that it will be billed through the insurance company. And right now is a really great time for us because through our auto suggested coating that our platform offers, the medical coders went through a whole change in their coding language. There was a diagnosis code. It was icy D nine,

and last October it switched to I c. D. 10. So for all of these coders who did not or they were familiar with specific codes as they code certain outcomes or certain conditions every day, all of that was turned upside down. So every single number that they knew changed, and traditionally they have books, toe look things up, and but that's not really fast. So our natural language processor actually helps them identify those codes without having to look them up. And at least auto suggests codes. So if they as they read it there, the specialists in their field, if they need to dive deeper on a code to get more specific, they can. So when we talk about our enterprise solutions,

I mean, we're dealing with a lot of data. And for us just having that access to that computing power and the data allows us to make things easier, too. Have better outcomes for patients. But also, like I said, for the providers and for the payers,

yeah, so is that, um, do you find that it's easy to take? Let's say you find that great designer that maybe two dimensional, right? Um, is it, um, is it is it challenging for designers to to flourish in that space where data is like a major driving force? Or is that or do you think that that most people that are doing what you and I do every day like, naturally, eventual or naturally, or eventually sort of succeed by having that data.

Um, I think it It's an interesting question because there are some designers that really like to dive deep on understanding the problem and playing around with that data and figuring out ways to solve problems with that data. And there are other designers that really don't like to dive that deep there. Um, you know, for me, for a chess, it's It's been a year of learning that business, and I'm still scratching the surface on it. But I like toe, you know, spend that time and understand it really well. Where some other designers would rather work on a few other projects in that same time frame that it takes for somebody to learn, You know, an intricate project like, you know, one of those medical coding software is, or any of our enterprise

solutions. I think that's the beauty of having people being multi dimensional. But like you said earlier, having the specialist that the user researcher, for example, that once that really wants to dive, indeed, So how does how does your team, or how are you guys working to evangelize? How user experience could make a difference in your organization? How do you? How do you measure it? The success

of the team. So, um, I think designers naturally want to understand the value that they bring, but we try not to make the case to justify the design or the outcomes that design brings. But we do like to measure that success. So for us to educate, I like to kind of say that we've got three E's, and that's like a personal thing of a three. Everything okay? But it's, you know, educate, empathize and execute and for us really to educate, which is more than than evangelizing. It's about kind of holding those lunch and learns and sitting down with our stakeholders and our business teams to really help them understand what what we're doing in our process and how we tackle problems and how we wantto hold workshops to kind of help themselves their problems. Because,

you know, as designers, we need to take our storytelling skills and help them tell their story so that it becomes our story. And it's really important to do that. Um, aside from lunch and learns and workshops, we'd like to do some share outs of case studies to show that We've had success in certain areas, and it's really about having our successes worked their way up the ladder so that we can have leaders kind of evangelizing for us. Yeah, Aside from that, we talk about empathizing, and as u ex designers, we have to always be the advocate for the user. So we wantto have that users seat at the table. Aside from that designer seat, so building that empathy and helping them have that empathy for our users is really important to us.

We do that through journey mapping workshops. Our team likes to kind of get the business, take on the journey map and then observe and build the customer journey map and show them where the gaps are there. And then, really, it's about executing. At some point you just have to do the work. And by doing the work and showing the value of design, it's easy to say, Hey, we've increased productivity by X percent or even if we realized that maybe the need that we're going for isn't great, I mean, sometimes businesses, you know, the product that we put out, it might not be the right time for that.

So what we have to do is kill a project once in awhile. Nobody wants to see the projects die, But maybe the market isn't ready for it. Maybe maybe it's a bad idea, right? Maybe it wasn't as good as we thought. Maybe our execution just sucked. We need to know when to stop the bleeding sometimes.

Yeah. And that's that. So that's always hard to as a designer to accept that, you know that you got to kill the baby. But sometimes you d'oh! Yeah, and

I mean those resource is congee placed somewhere else. That can add more value.

Yeah. So, Andy, what do you hope that you and your team will accomplish in the short term? What does the future look like for design at 3 a.m.

Healthcare, our team and health care. Really, We're just looking to continue to grow so that we can provide as much impact to our projects and the business teams that they really need. When we talk about, like our health information systems, there's hundreds of developers. If we have one or two designers trying to keep that money developers busy, we probably can, but not in the way that we really want to. So for us, it's really building that team, making the impact wherever we can, starting with where we provide the most value. And then through those successes, adding people to the team and just building it to where we want it to be.

One last question for you, because I didn't expect to ask you this, but since what you just said just inspired me to ask his question. So, um, Peter Mayer Holtz is a friend of mine, and I just saw him give his most recent um ah. Keynote on design org's for designed for designer works for design It works or something like that. Sorry, Peter. Sorry for butchering the name. Title your book anyway. And And in this presentation he was talking about the typical balance between design and engineers is usually 8 to 20. Um, if it may be different for everyone, but if that is the golden ratio and you guys a warrior at right now is a challenge finding people, or is the challenge getting the budget to go find people?

I think for us the challenge is finding people. Right now. We want all of our U. S. Designers to be co located in the Twin Cities. And the first thing when we talk to somebody and say, Hey, we want you to come to ST Paul there like it's freezing there and really, I don't want to turn this into advocating for the whole town that I live in, But I didn't expect to come here, and I ended up coming here and loving it. This is a great town. There's a lot to do here. So it's really if I can talkto one desire. That's like, I don't know if I should go work at 3 a.m. It kind of sounds cool, but I'm so scared of the winter,

the winters there, a little bit bad. They're not as bad as you think. And, yeah, I really like This is a cool place to be. It's a cool town. There is a lot off focus on design now. There's a lot of building up the design function and three times really investing in design. So it's a great place to be, and for us it's taken us a year to kind of get to double digits, two years to get to double digits. But I think It's starting to get easier as we're getting more and more people are hearing about design at three.

That's that's cool, man. So if anyone's listening to this and are interested in working on digital products in the healthcare space, you gotta hit up. Andy. Um, Andy, why don't you tell us how people can find you on the interwebs,

and we're not sure. So at Andy Vitality on Twitter, instagram, Facebook, every social, anything and at 3 a.m. Design on Twitter or three m dot com slash design. And we've got open jobs there, too. You couldn't just click through the job opportunities link.

I might have to talk to you about podcast sponsorship. Yeah. I mean, I

wouldn't be that person, but I could probably put you in touch with who

will. Well, Andy, I really want to thank you for taking time out of your busy data to talk with me. And we've been trying to coordinate this for a long time now I know it's I know you. I know you're really busy, so I definitely appreciate appreciate you doing it.

Yeah. No, it's been fun. I'd love to actually come back and do it again

sometime. Anytime you want, man. I mean, maybe we can, you know, find a weighted to do it in person, meet up at a conference

or something. Yeah, that would be awesome.

Thanks everyone, for tuning in the podcast podcast, and we'll talk later. This'll episode of Hustle is brought to you by Envision Design. Better, faster together. Learn more at in vision. App dot com Hustle is brought to you by Fun Size, a digital product design studio that crafts delightful digital user experiences with inspiring product companies. Follow us at hustle cast and fun size on Twitter.