Thanks for tuning in to the hustle. A show about the ideas processes people from cultures behind, designing meaningful digital products. I'm very excited about today's guest. His name's Jules. Our heart. He is a co founder of us to in their New York office and has been up to some really awesome things lately. Not only in the in the client service is part of their business in the venture side of the business, but in the games division, but also Ah, he's been writing a lot of really cool things about the future of our industry. Jules wants to say hi, and until our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Hey,
uh,
handsome pleasure,
Thio.
Pleasure to be with you.
Um,
yeah,
Jules,
just correct.
I'm a co owner of us to The studio was founded just over a decade ago by Mills and sinks,
but,
um,
yeah,
I've bean with us to finally seven years now on DA on.
Quite an adventure.
I was joining around 20 people and ah,
today were 300 something in around four countries.
And I came over here four years ago to help set of the New York studio and yet my background,
What I would I bring to the table is kind of commercial side of things.
So I'm from,
ah,
vory limited design and engineering background.
But I've always been looking at what we sell,
How we said that what the opportunities on how the industry itself is developing.
So I've had a lot of privilege asked you to experience quite a change over the last ah,
decade.
I guess teams of being the industry on duh.
And,
you know,
I've been quite a ride since we've been in the U.
S.
As well say,
how did they convince youto come to the States and open up that studio? Or was it a no brainer?
Um,
probably degree of megalomania on my side.
I when I joined us,
something like 20 people in a studio and in AA shortage in East London,
which is the kind of kind of design technology end of London on a small studio in Malmo,
Sweden,
on do we got?
We got to a point where I think we're 80 sending people,
and I felt the exponential impact that certainly that I could make it had been made and already wanted to set myself a new challenge.
Well,
so you know,
every studio in Europe,
you know,
he was You know,
I have that can ambition to try and set up in the States and try and make it here as well.
Say,
um,
it was,
uh,
yeah,
New territories,
new adventures and wanted to kind of find your frontiers for the studio.
What we do,
that's awesome. I think for a lot of us, cos it's kind of the opposite, like my dream would be would be to have Ah, Scandinavian studio.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So I have a
couple questions for you before we get into the meat of today's conversation. Just because I'm personally curious. Um, what were some of the biggest maybe maybe pick one or two things that were the biggest times of change in the company As you guys went through these some of these bigger growth periods?
Yeah,
absolutely.
I mean,
the lens I cannot bring to it is designers and industry,
I think I think if you read some of the stuff of written,
I was coming at that angle,
recognizing that its industry and we have responsibility to to think about designers of business both for what we do,
how we do it,
but also with the people we work with.
So the lens I've always had in regards to us to is,
is how we represent a source to the world and and,
like,
probably literally your listeners out.
Well,
pretty much it was turned on its head with the With the iPhone back in the day coming out on dhe,
we asked to itself for being in my well for,
you know,
as I said,
I think 11 years ago been working with Sony and a bunch of other partners,
but that was back when you're looking at,
you know,
3 20 before 80 80 screens and we're doing iconography.
And you
I design feature phones and D pad
and all that is exactly so. That's where we started. But, you know, well, you know, really changed with the iPhone coming out because we were we were in you. I design a mobile back when you know, no one's really interested in talking to you if you have parties. And you said you were in mobile. Um, and with the iPhone coming out, it just raised everyone's awareness of user experience and um and ah, digital s o that kind of very high quality that asked to use the words despite t I think resonated with people. So that was the first significant change, because ah, suddenly everyone cared about user experience. I think probably that record's been paid a lot of lot of times. Can't be. I don't think Steve
enough.
Yeah,
And when that the other.
The other question I have for you.
I mean,
first of all,
I think the megaphone,
the message from your megaphone is clear.
You guys are aggressively independent,
and and,
um,
even though I don't know all the details I mean,
you can tell that Coulter is a very important thing for us,
too,
as it is with fun size.
I mean,
we think of ourselves as a family.
We're not a family.
We started out as a family run business.
Now we're a family oriented business.
But you know where 13 people you guys were?
300 something.
How have you been able to maintain that culture at that scale?
Actually,
we got a phrase for which is fam pany,
which is kind of amalgamation of family and company.
Yeah,
You were really very personal space A dust,
too.
And I think we recognize that a studio itself probably can't grow beyond 100 and something people before you know it's the things we care about begin to fall apart.
You can certainly replicate studios.
So you know,
the London studio is pretty mature on DA.
It's got that sense of family.
It's a little bit older,
a little bit bigger.
But every time we start a new studio,
transfer some of the d n A,
um,
and bring some people over to help gonna set up in the studio.
We can recreate that.
So if you to visit any of our studios in London,
in Malmo,
Sweden,
in New York or in Sydney,
you'd walk in and feel that kind of same sense of family.
A CE We call it a same time,
you know,
it's It's also challenging because,
uh,
with uh,
with the kind of family set up,
you need to be able to have honest conversations with each other in order to progress so that you know there's a risk of being too friendly,
a new environment that actually stifles people's development because we do need to challenge each other to do better on a constant basis.
Thank you. Thank you for that. So
I'd actually had the other interesting investment which you're gonna thank. Our Scandinavian Studio four is that we've got full time coaches. That us too. So there's a couple of schools in Sweden. Um ah. And Denmark, actually one called chaos pilot and one called Hyper Island on. They focused a lot on personal development team work, team dynamics, Onda coaching, in essence. And we've got full time coaches in all our studios to help us with that process. That kind of making sure we're aware of our development. How were interacting with each other? We invest heavily in it is kind of runs through all the studios.
That's that's freaking incredible. I'm gonna have to come. It's been a while since I've been in New York, but it if you'll if you'll allow me to co worker or something, I'd love to come hang out for a day,
please. Yeah, yeah. Coffee
and hooks.
All right.
That sounds awesome.
So you wrote an article this summer called the State of the Digital Nation 2016.
I was lucky enough to get ah ah get it a bit earlier and I read it while I was driving to New Orleans,
and it was so captivating that I couldn't.
I just was one of the first things that I've ever read Word for word,
top to bottom.
And I think it's just just a very important piece for people to read,
especially for those are there,
you know,
building businesses and stuff like that in this industry.
And it,
you know,
it's like in my mind it may be one of the most important things is written this year,
and I'm trying to get everyone to read that made it like I'm trying to get everyone a company to read it and you're in.
Some of it is inspiring just because I think you're validating with,
um with some expertise and proof something's a lot of people are talking about and the predictions that you have about what's necessary to,
you know,
to being a meaningful and to be actually quite honestly,
like a product design studio that can operate our There's some really interesting things there,
so I don't want to try to paraphrase it like,
why don't you tell us about what this piece is about And what are some?
Let's talk about some of the key,
the key things here.
Absolutely.
I mean,
I first off,
I really honestly didn't expect anyone Thio to read.
It seems ever has a native of the kind of design community and a few kind of tangential industries.
I mean,
to be honest,
if someone sent me like a 60 minute read on on medium,
I'd be kind of like,
yeah,
laters s I was I was I was really surprised that it's kind of resonated and pretty humbled that,
you know,
people sharing about it and talking about it.
Um,
the pretty much came.
I wrote it because I had reached after I think,
you know,
I guess 11 years in this particular part of the industry kind of,
Ah,
a new chapter.
I was closing a chapter in terms of being involved in day to day operations of a studio.
I had originally come out to set up New York studio,
and I've just taken a month out before stepping into my new role,
which is more about what we're doing,
where we're going,
the people we need to know the relationships we need to cultivate.
So I was at this riel real stage where I was very reflective.
Andi I had high began like I've had about notes for 18 months,
and I began to draw them all together,
and it turned into this a bit of a beast,
not intentionally.
But once it started,
like all the stuff and passionate about or angry about or laugh,
Ah,
the kind of structure came together.
This article is so big, guys that it's in has chapters.
Yeah,
I had to try to break in and I had to break into four.
The problem is,
it's hard for people to comment on it because it's so big.
But in essence,
like I did,
I did four things I wanted to kind of take a look at Industry Pa's industries perspective.
This is all under the guise of like,
you know,
the digital industry.
Um,
and the first,
the first chapters,
really,
the industry perspective,
they met in perspective of what's going on.
There's been a lot of consolidation in our industry,
um,
talking better what digital product in itself is.
And to do that through the lens of explain to my mother just so I could I could try and get it in kind of simple terms on I still don't think she understands that there,
but still,
um,
and I just really want to get beyond that.
We may caps,
um,
but then looking at,
you know,
the advertising industry.
And I did that because,
you know,
there's a lot of talent in that industry,
and they hold a lot of the digital,
uh,
purse strings and a lot of the digital talent so on and then looking at,
you know what's happening now between the at holding companies on the management consultancy.
So you like,
you have to call it a cache of the Titans.
So is the first perspective.
The 2nd 1 is really theeighties perspective.
Kind of zooming in on what that means for human beings,
which is kind of you,
me,
your listeners and everyone else is trying a who's trying to kind of operate in this Ah,
in this environment,
a huge change in flux.
Um,
on dhe talking about agencies being brought in,
sold what's the reasons by behind people buying agencies of why people sell?
Um,
I called it a bullshit on this kind of end of consultants you think is a few studios have shouted,
um,
talk a bit about they're about,
you know,
the need for our industry to kind of get riel and move away a bit from kind of story,
telling the story,
doing actually just getting on with shit.
And it's looking like human beings.
I feel as an industry we've begun to pontificate a bit too much.
And that's certainly not the reality that,
um,
the reality that that,
you know,
if you're the coalface and starts up already kind of building products that we need to be in on,
then I'll talk a bit about you know what's next,
which is,
you know,
which is the coming of the independent student.
Second coming because we've all been through this in some way and you've got one of your,
ah,
one of your companies in in Austin Chaotic moon souls.
If you're a lot of great independent studio is hot studio and lots of others all sold tech companies.
They've either shattered if your team relax with great great company and they headed off to Facebook.
The founders Andre talking about this second wave that we're going to see in the future.
Well,
before we get do that,
let's talk a little about about this quote that you have in your presentation called The Ship of Dixie s.
Yeah,
Um,
let me see if I can get this right.
So based on what you said,
So it's like when you acquire a company like Tino Blacks or Hot studio Or us too,
right?
Yeah.
You're gonna get their brand,
and you're gonna get their talent for a time frame,
right?
You're going to get some level of their expertise.
But now you own this ship,
and over time,
you know some of the boards that people are gonna leave and the boards need to be replaced.
And after a while,
like you still have this the ship.
But it's just completely different.
Is that a right?
Is that what you're Is that what you're trying to communicate?
Their like the you know,
like,
what happens when ah company buys?
Ah,
hot studio.
Yeah.
I mean,
in essence.
Yeah.
I mean,
the ship of Theseus is Ah ah,
bunch of old Greek dude talking about whether a ship that overtime had every single plank replaced when it's been serviced.
Is that still the same ship.
It wasn't the first place.
So if you want to,
could simplify it.
If anyone watches only Fools and Horses,
which is inbred classic British comedy Trigger,
one of the key characters that has a broom he's had for,
you know,
a couple of decades,
but he's changed the head seven times in the handle 10 times.
Andi is,
in essence,
that it's that you know what what you're selling or what someone's buying,
um,
is not necessarily infuse what you end up with.
You know,
the talent kind of floods out.
Typically,
the founders often leave once they've had their own out.
I've had conversations with people after they're sold,
and they kind of casually star just got three years as if they basically written off.
Written all often they're just trying to kind of see out three years.
So the other irony is that you know the terms of those deals and the income that those agencies need to generate over the time they end up paying for a lot of the deal himself s Oh,
that's yeah,
that's what it's really about.
Onda and you touched a little bit of mention us to in that,
you know,
before you mentioned kind of being resolutely independent.
Us too.
Well,
I've never,
you know,
is one of the owners.
I've never once had a conversation in all my years about a sale.
Or consider that being part of a strategy or even being entertained people get in touch was a fair amount.
We kind of,
um you know,
which is nice.
It's interesting,
but like we just haven't considered it once and what you want.
What is in this piece and talking about the digital products studio mission really is really what we're trying to achieve.
It's like avoiding then the need to have to sell on doing everything we can to kind of avoid that because that's not that's not our.
That's not our objective.
Never
has been.
Yeah,
that's that's really interesting.
One on one time,
one of our clients,
Big Bay Area Client,
was at dinner with my wife,
who's my business partner.
And,
like I think they were serious.
They asked her,
like,
would we sell fun size?
And she responded with ya for a 1,000,000 D dollars like she has responded with a fake number,
like we're kind of the same we're kind of the same way.
And we wonder,
like,
crazy like to think that,
like,
you know,
I don't know,
like,
who knows what we're gonna do,
But I'm just happy with what we're doing.
I just want to keep that going.
Um,
but,
you know,
some people do They do do that.
And what we're I interrupted you is where I thought you were about to go into.
Okay.
Well,
what's next?
These people are have sold their studios.
Um,
they've gone to these other bigger tech companies or are consulting conglomerates,
and they've done their two or three years.
And then what's gonna happen next?
Well,
there's a strong likelihood that they're going to start new studios.
Yeah,
what does that studio and I think that's what this is,
right?
What is that?
What is that studio look like?
Yeah,
absolutely.
I spoke your bit about what it called a kind of second coming of the independent studio,
and I think I don't see scenarios where that talent can be kind of retained.
That SP,
especially if you look at the kind of more alien environments of management consultancy.
There's a real clash of cultures there between you know,
the tattoo design cruise in the slack pence consultants on dhe.
And I just don't I don't see in terms of the type of work the way it's executed.
Andi culture of design in a management consultancy.
How that can be really How's that talent?
So you've got you've got the more senior people who will have 34 year own outs,
Um and,
ah,
they're gonna stay,
hang around longer.
I know from firsthand experience a lot of the people who want owners and and more senior,
they haven't stuck it out very long and they've they've kind of left left that left this set up and going back to the studio spaces or start ups.
So we're not really with this massive wave of acquisitions we've seen in the industry over the last four years.
I guess for me,
it really began with fueled setting to Accenture on way and around that time,
that hot studio to Facebook and a bunch of others,
I created a A list of about 15 or 20 transactions in the piece.
Got a data path and, you know yeah, you know, you know people are selling now, Thio Big banks and
yet the banks or credit card companies And for me, you know, I don't I don't criticize. People wanna sell. Is any owners right to sell the company? You know that that's completely okay with what I see probably is that the, um, failure to kind of evolve the business model or a CZ the Tina lacks recall that reach escape velocity his men. That I guess you just liked looking at. All right. Is this my life? For the next 20 years or 10 years, I might as well, like, get that house or get that boat or whatever. So I can see. I can see why people do it, but for me on I said us to we've never even considered that root cause we're trying to create a business that creates exponential return was in value for absolutely everyone, not just the ownership. Um, so
yeah.
So,
um,
what's what's you know?
I remember having a conversation with John Lax and one of one of the things that he just told me,
you know,
because this was,
you know,
a few years ago he was like,
you know,
just keep in mind,
like every year you know,
cost of living goes up and you know all these things.
And,
you know,
you gotta you gotta be prepared to battle that with different solutions.
Yeah,
not not.
Not just revenue from client service of it.
Think,
you know,
he was like,
he basically said,
Anthony,
just think about that.
Like,
I'm not gonna tell you what to do.
But you need to think about that.
Yep.
And so that's That's one of the reasons why I was really interested in this article.
Not only because I think you guys have the right approach here to,
like,
you know what it means to really partner with people to do things.
But how to diversify,
in a sense,
to prove trust in,
you know,
trust that you can actually take products to market.
Um,
and a few other things that so why don't you summarize if you can?
Yep.
Um what What A digital product studio is or needs to be?
Two B two b.
Roll
it.
Yeah,
sure.
I mean,
the kind of just taking a brief step back,
like looking over the decade I've been involved.
You know what the asked who's been existed?
Let's just say that we have.
And we spoke about the iPhone coming out and then,
you know,
then it was hot to Bu y studio.
Then it was hot to be you.
Extra u X is a big thing,
and then it was thought to be a mobile shop on dhe.
Now you really wouldn't be want to be a purely mobile shop on dhe.
For me,
it's for us two's evolution.
It's bean,
Um is going from being user interface design studio.
You exterior to you.
Are you ex to a mobile Onda.
Now it's a digital product student in over the last number of years on,
and the point of that there are multiple points to it.
We don't want to be tied down,
but by specific platform.
And I think I think a digital products to you would be kind of platform agnostic.
You know,
I certainly if you position yourself as a mobile shop,
you're gonna be in deep trouble in a couple of years and there's no way mobile isn't gonna go the way of Web,
Um,
in terms of being commoditized.
So for me,
like being platform agnostic is really important.
That means being in products and service is means that,
you know,
yes,
mobile could be what we actually cute on.
But it's actually about the service experience.
We're trying to build the kind of product experience we're trying to build on.
Did the touch points might be mobile?
They might be V I they might be voiced.
They might be.
They might be anything,
but certainly isn't it?
It's not for me,
for us is abstracted to service design were operates in clean,
complete abstraction.
But the point of that is,
is one thing,
like if your cable capable to operate in that space,
you can remain in the premium end of the market.
And it's something I spoke about.
The peace,
which is about,
you know,
digital products.
Do you will be doing premium working.
Charging a premium for its service is so That's important because you spoke a bit about what?
What John said,
which was,
You know,
be aware costs go up.
Your environment is gonna be more competitive on do you know?
You know your service is all to be commoditized.
Really.
It's your job to keep moving to the next platform,
Um,
and by being like product focus,
doing design and engineering,
which is another key component being able to deliver product end to end.
You're gonna be able to charge more for what you do because you're delivering more value on your second reducing risk.
So for me,
it's really important to digital products.
Studio is charging an absolute premium for its work.
And I want to say primo mean,
let justified premium.
You know,
you should be at the top end of the market.
You should be proud of what you're doing.
You should get paid for it because if if you start operating in a market where it goes down,
down,
down,
then you're gonna get these pressures and ultimate,
that's when you think you have to sell because you're not You're not being profitable as a business.
So for me,
premiums really important for us.
It us Thio and,
you know,
being confident about that.
Um,
the other point about the product studio is that you know,
if you've got the ability to execute a product and when I say execute is like,
you know,
I meet you next week,
you're you've got you've got money on,
we wanna build standing.
And from that meeting we can actually take a product right the way through to market.
Um and,
uh,
you know,
do the strategy,
the design,
the engineering and take it to market that that's that should be the end to end offering That's a really powerful on actually rare commodity that you have if you have that ability,
because it's really hard to build digital product and service is do the integration.
Andi on deliver on multiple platforms.
It's no easy.
So there's value in that,
and that in itself is a commodity,
and you can begin to trade on that differently.
So,
like it's great to do consultancy.
What we love.
Working with the people who work with,
we get to see,
you know,
technology that's gonna be out in a year or two years,
which is usually a time frame for products that we work on with with partners is like this stuff's coming on six months,
12 months or two years.
So we get to see future stuff on deliver,
like little bits of the future.
Um,
and,
um,
yes,
it is important you can.
You can you have that commodity and you're not operating abstract dusting strategy or just doing design.
We're just doing engineering because you can then begin to trade on that differently.
So the consultancy works great.
You gotta find exciting work that that's kind of rewarding for the team.
Ondas profitable.
It's like a premium end of the scale.
But what you really have then is this ability to to ship products,
which means you've got other opportunities,
which are,
um,
you know,
moving brand consultancy.
I think there's,
uh,
you know,
there's obviously there's there's a few other spaces,
so one's ventures.
If you are profitable,
um,
then you're gonna you're gonna potentially have some spare money to invest in start ups,
which is an opportunity.
It's also going,
you know,
it's massively risky,
so you pretty much need to expect to lose all over or plan your finances with the expectation of losing all of it.
Given the odds any startup has on dhe,
secondly,
you can either.
Instead of just playing investing in the start up around that venture space,
you can actually depressed your profits by offering service's Thio in return for equities they might be.
It is an interesting start up it might be it might be a seed which is was the only opportunity,
but high risk or proceed or even I'm I've done a series A,
but they might have a challenge of wanting to get Let's say,
Let's say they're just in IOS and they want to get to Android.
They don't have.
They don't have an ah,
they don't have ah,
Android engineering team To build one is costly.
It's difficult as well as very competitive for talents.
You cannon engineer deal and said that will deliver the android integrate the android version of your ah,
of your of your service or product in return for X percent of equity.
So that's the other opportunities because you've got this this this commodity,
which is very,
very valuable,
like startups.
And to be honest,
even some of the world's biggest companies and clients,
which was blows my mind that some level that we're working with some of these amazing cos.
Is like you think they got with.
I don't think they do have infinite resources,
yet they still need you on.
You still need each other s.
Oh,
that's that's really important as well that you have the ability to deliver and to end strategy,
design,
engineering I remember when you spoke about this piece last.
Ah,
you know,
I think last month you mentioned about the marketing of it for me.
You know,
we're not from a marketing advertising background.
We don't do any advertising and marketing for us.
Our peace has always bean at us to about delivering the product and that experience.
And,
you know,
there is a bit of the thoughts of the product is the marketing.
But of course,
the product needs a marketing strategy around.
Once it's out,
it's gonna need to kind of I's gonna need support in that regard better so that we don't involve ourselves interesting.
We're quite happy for other other companies and other partners to take that to take that forwards.
So that's that's the venture party opportunity around,
then what?
You're getting out of consultancy,
which is basically a giant fucking hamster wheel like,
you know,
if you want to build a bigger company on,
make more money,
you need thio pedal faster.
You get to take a more billable hours, you know? Yeah. You doing the same
thing over and over again exactly.
Gonna feed the beast and then you start compromising on the kind of work you're doing.
You start.
You still think 00 I think we could do the mobile ad buying for this out.
We just released.
And you start to get to this soul crushing work,
which is,
could be really cancerous.
You're kind of culture.
Um,
so trying to get out.
One of the moves we made years ago was trying to get out of this very linear relationship between our effort and on the returns.
Which plane consultancy charging on the time material basis,
Be it like daily,
weekly or monthly.
Whatever there is that very linear relationship the studio,
the product studio,
the future has to break that relationship.
Because if you don't,
then you're gonna get to 40 Sending or 50 something.
Yeah,
I think I'm gonna sell to a management consultancy.
Andi name be kind of like,
you know,
you lose yourself for the last few years and everything you've built in all the people who built it with kind of like just slowly drift
away,
so jewels on it.
I'm gonna chime in right here real quick because there's a There's a lot of meat on the bone here,
and you really have to,
um,
watch jewels.
Video called the agency the future,
read his article,
but there's a few things I want to call out here.
First of all,
Jules is saying the word partner,
not client.
And and I think that's that's really interesting,
you know,
because in the material you talk about I mean,
I think it partner is a better word for customer anyway.
But if you're talking about the start of his face for sure,
like you're you're saying,
OK,
well,
look like just get,
get get real here.
Like align yourself with with a partner who knows this problem space intimately and and where your when you bring your own,
you know,
your own bit of expertise,
the table and you work together to figure that out,
and and that's that's that's That's a something that I just I love.
Like I love that that way of thinking about it.
I mean,
you know,
does not you know,
design like like you say is important.
Um,
but we kind of need to get off the high horse a little bit and realize that you know,
there's if you really want to change the world or do meaningful things as you put it,
you need to align yourself with people that are are able to do that.
Yeah.
And the other thing that,
um um that you said in your in your material that I liked was this concept of married and cheating back to the on the on the point of it,
you know,
only being capable and one or two parts of the service needs.
So s O.
The concept is like,
um,
paraphrasing from here from your your presentation.
If you're only married to one part of the process,
then you cannot truly be faithful to your partner.
So that was for me,
like big because,
you know,
we've only been around for three and 1/2 years,
but we've been talking about this internally about needing to dog food this,
like,
you know,
like needing to build trust so that we,
you know,
people would hire us to bring new service Is new products toe market.
And you say in your presentation,
like,
Okay,
think about it.
Like if you're if you're just a development studio,
if you're just a mobile studio,
if you're just a design studio and you were to start your own company.
Would you hire your own company to take that product to market?
And I think that was just I don't It was very powerful to me because I'm you know,
and it's helped us.
I think at least have a perspective to help saw Answer that question,
you know,
because you know,
fun size were a design only only shop.
Yes,
it's it's It's definitely made it easier for us to curb our risk and stuff like that.
But,
you know,
you know,
I think there's there's a lot of power at these things,
And then the last thing that I want to point out is a quote.
I don't know if this is yours or someone else's.
You put your presentation,
but I think it's also very powerful that it's not about the ideas.
It's about making ideas happen.
And the only thing that really matters is whether you can take a product to market or not.
Yep,
and,
um,
and you can't do that unless you're,
you know,
these three.
These three components of the digital product studio,
the client service,
own product ventures like you can't do that.
You can't really do any of that even charge.
Premium service is unless you can bring a new company market.
So this is all,
like,
really powerful stuff.
Yeah,
I'm happy.
Happy to refund a bit of the some of those topics.
I just said the things so dense.
Like,
I honestly,
I had assisted,
like,
18 months of notes,
and when I finally got into it,
I just It just all flowed.
I actually edit out like I had.
I had someone,
some friends that marvel at who we published piece on,
do a great editing job,
shout,
shout out to them.
But,
um um,
but I think I ought to take out,
like,
20 fucks and 10 ships because it was,
like,
over over 14,000 words,
which is for the longest thing I've ever written.
It was full of light.
I right,
kind of right the way I speak s O that that had to get that had to get kind of trim down a bit.
So But like some of the themes like,
yeah,
the partner things important to us,
and it applies on both sides like it makes sense in the venture space because we are literally anting to a partnership where I'm gonna risk depressing my profits by working and return for some of equities,
which has a mythical value which hasn't yet been tested for a product we haven't got toe market s.
Oh,
there's a risk there.
So you are literally partners in a venture that there's risk on both sides.
So that's that's natural.
The type of partner we look forward.
Us,
too,
when we work in the startup space.
No,
we don't work with Ah,
you know,
like a kid who's got some inheritance or Jack or Jane with an APP idea.
We we want to work with a za partner.
Industry veterans Who,
um no,
the industry inside out who see the opportunity.
You have the contacts,
a little black book.
Andi,
uh,
who can ultimately be the CEO are already the CEO of this thing,
and we'll drive it forwards.
That's really important to us to find the right the right kind of partner because every industry worth a said kind of hit it easy.
We're disrupting.
We're getting into is ah,
high walled garden.
They don't want you in there.
They don't want you messing that they came up so you need someone is already on the other side of that wall,
and you can empower them with what you do in the in the product space by helping kind of realize their vision on.
One example we've done that is eyes a start up,
which is disclosed in a around the 1st 1 We've done that.
The clothes and a round called Dice,
which is a mobile ticketing study where we partnered with a friend of the studio,
Phil,
who's from the music industry kinda music industry event veteran,
Um,
and find Marty Records.
And,
you know,
we built a mobile texting out with them with all their industry intelligence,
and it's been really interesting that there's no way we could have walked in.
So we're gonna disrupt mobile ticketing for a raise that's like almost a Mafia like industry.
There's no way like,
you know,
you know where he's gonna walk into a trap.
Then that speaks a bit to the other note of like us getting off our high horse like,
No,
you're not gonna fucking disrupt health care.
If you design a health care up,
you need to be here having people lobbying in Washington to get that she had done.
So I think we need to get grounded.
What were we good at?
Which reflects on us,
too,
is like we were not gonna disrupt.
We know what we're good at.
Weaken deliver great user experience.
Really solid product from a design and engineering perspective.
And we can help it.
You know,
we're also asked his brand Is it slowly evolving?
We're not Nobody's and you were also helps kind of push something push for sending out into the world.
But we will stay within that we're not going to stop it,
or we can take care of X y zed and s.
So we were pretty grounded and we want to find the right partners.
Now that's in the venture space.
Like going back to the consultancy space,
which I suspect most of like the people listening and ah,
and also which for us at us to represents,
like,
a significant portion of our revenue.
Um,
you know,
18 80% or 80 90%.
So that's very much the world we're in.
And well,
we love um,
the reason we talk about partners and not clients.
There's which we've been trying to get away from this kind of what I've come across in the States where people have this kind of ender thing like agency vendor,
uh,
and client agency relationship.
And it's really like an old school kind of shit flows downhill thing where,
um,
you know,
there's a disconnect.
Andi,
if something goes wrong,
the agency gets blamed on Duh.
And you know,
you I see too often the agency isn't emotionally committed to the goal because they're just the agency in that kind of they're on one side of this relationship.
So for us,
we want to seek partners.
And,
yes,
these people are paying us and we have master Service's agreement.
But we want to commit 150% toe wanna build?
And we can only do that.
Everyone team without partners,
Um,
we want we want to build a great product.
That means also,
if you have that attitude,
you're gonna try and only do work that actually inspires you because,
you know you're not gonna emotional ever want to get involved in projects that don't expire.
You just get the money s o.
That partnership is really important.
We were very up front with that with the people that we work with or might work with because there's a expectations partnership in partners are honest with each other.
They like the No ship's gonna be good.
They know she's gonna be bad,
but they'll get through that by communicating by being honest with each other by by accepting when they've not done something right and being open about that.
So part partnership.
All partners.
It's so important.
Sources of philosophy.
We're just trying on any like any clients who,
you know,
call the clients any.
Any companies that potential clients who like smack of the I want an agency vendor relationship.
I want to call you at,
like 1 a.m. on a Friday.
I'm going to give you a bunch of requirements two days before launch.
Now,
look,
unless we're building like,
um,
equipment that saving kids lives or heart surgery stuff,
you know what?
You don't need to call me a 10 p.m. On a Friday,
and you don't need to send me standing on a Sunday,
and it's really important that we have a healthy relationship.
And the way Alexa Couch relationships is like it's all so easy.
Toe end up in an abusive relationship and That's why I think that if you have a agency vendor relationship,
it could need to go that way on Dhe.
For us,
it's just about self respect that,
you know,
you allow yourself to be in a negative relationship in a fundamental level.
So if you have that pride you know in yourself,
Andi,
respect for yourself,
then you will naturally not get into those relationships.
And it's a far happier,
healthier world if you don't.
So that's that's like a partner philosophy on the consultancy side,
but also kind of on the venture side,
the married and cheating.
But you mentioned,
Yeah,
that's kind of interesting,
that bond.
It speaks a bit,
too,
Where I see it's important for Sony,
whereas to is and where I believe if we're gonna have the second wave of independent studios,
um,
that we're gonna be like,
you know,
there's people like Working co.
Uh,
who,
you know,
I love that word.
Love their Virgin America works on who Came out of Huge is pretty much all the product team walked out of huge one day,
which in itself is light,
and it was like 4 500 people in one building and on a couple of coast.
Saand,
you know,
for me,
that's not that's not seen the point about the point about that issue,
this future studio,
which we're already seeing Some emerge,
um is going to be able Thio to do design and engineering on.
They're not gonna be married to one part and they'll be able to see it through.
Now look at us two we're not gonna do is beautiful branding works Pentagram on we're not Gonna do is in depth work as well Phones on brand.
But into in today's world life,
we're trying to get a product to market I've seen too often like I've seen,
I've seen Project stopped for five months when it's gone to a branding consultancy where millions of dollars have been spent on,
like,
the whole project stops because they're waiting for a rebrand and you get this deck back which has,
like,
four or five pages of digital and,
like,
110 about all the other or the other expressions of the brand that the world does not work like that anymore.
You cannot spend four months or branding or even three months.
You got a you got to be being an agile about it.
So for us,
if I see risk,
put it this way.
I've got a lot of admiration for the studios I love.
I love some of the output of the studios,
but I see real risk in them.
Just only one part of process.
Be a brand orbit.
Just design.
Because if you're doing just doing design,
you're locking this inefficiency into the pro sex is you're gonna work with another partner which has risk.
You're gonna probably working water for you.
Gonna do a bunch of exhausting specifications documentation,
which is,
like,
you know,
defunct by by five months later when someone's implementing it,
half the teams left.
You know,
the people design unveiled to speak to the engineers all kinds of risk involved in that.
So for us,
it's important Thio Thio not be married to one part of the process on that,
it does keep you honest.
We feel because you're your result is a product getting to market.
That's when you're happy.
That's the objective.
Is a product to market if you're just doing strategy or just brand or just one of these components,
naturally is a business you're gonna want to charge as much as you reasonably can for that.
But if you think about it like an old school way,
and it's not possible Christ,
lots of lots of companies are doing you might go out to branding consultancy and spend,
you know,
from talking big companies,
you know,
x 1,000,000 on branding a branding piece.
Then you might go to like an innovation shop to work out what the service designers and do another.
You know,
you could do a 45 months,
you know,
global study,
and spend another funeral dollars.
And you're just taking this awful waterfall approach,
which is just isn't the world that that we operate in startups operating certainly not the world.
Google and Facebook and Twitter and Force cooperate.
And that's not the real world.
And we're tryingto operates,
survive in the real world on.
That's why it's important to us to get us close to that as possible.
Which lips a bit thio the piece about,
um,
you know what?
The op changes of building your own stuff as well.
Um,
first,
I say amen to everything that you just said.
Yeah,
So,
uh,
yeah,
if you do if you do these things right,
um,
some,
You know,
some of these things,
You know,
I guess you don't have to do all of them.
But if you do some of these things,
yeah,
then you might be able to put yourself in a position where you can build your own thing.
And that's to case that has been several things.
But one of the biggest successes that you guys have had his monument valley.
Yep.
You know,
I know you got your public.
You're pretty transparent about this stuff.
You you spent about 800 K or something like on that,
but May made.
Don't you make about 10 million on that?
I think it's 15. In the end, we ordered source everything because it was a was pretty. Not so. We wanted to share the world and any learnings we've had, but yeah.
So you know,
how you gonna make Monument Valley if you're only,
you know,
focusing on,
you know,
one part of launching a product?
Yeah.
And that 800 k.
And,
you know,
I'm sure you know is probably hard to do it,
but you had to cash toe to do that somehow.
And it generated a return that I feel allows you guys to say,
Ah,
aggressively independent.
Yeah,
I do the and do all these other things.
And,
you know,
I think you know,
I think it's interesting.
Um,
I think a lot of people listen to the show.
Are,
um,
small,
small studios,
freelancers?
We don't know.
We may have bigger companies wherever.
I don't know,
But these kinds of things or things that that I I think about this stuff,
like,
all day,
every day.
And it's really great,
um,
you know,
to be able to learn from people like us to who have been doing this for a while and,
um can and are willing to share this with the world,
you know,
you know,
for the better of better men over industry and
things.
Great.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Mean the thing about the thing about it is we definitely haven't got everything worked out at all like we just haven't majorly fucked up yet.
Um,
if you've got people listening,
who are smaller shops,
that was exactly us.
Like,
you know what,
45 years ago,
when we were,
or just one earlier.
Only in that when your iPhone can.
We just wanted to make stuff and then some.
It wasn't profitable.
I mean,
there's a long trail of corpses till you get to Monument Valley.
We spent a lot of money trying to work stuff,
you know,
work stuff out on DE.
So we haven't got everything right.
The model I'm talking about is like the our North Star,
Andi.
We're happy to sharing experiences along the way.
But if you talk about like people being interested in creating a lot of stuff,
that's what we were doing a number of years ago.
Some of ended up being great marketing.
Some of it was free.
And we did a great one of the maps I've always loved was Randall,
which is a antisocial photo sharing app where you take a photo and send it to a stranger somewhere on the planet.
Um,
And you you get one returning from a stranger somewhere else,
you might.
You might take a foot of the Statue of Liberty on because I want a boat and then I send it out,
ends up invaluable.
Stop Moscow.
In return,
I get a picture of a mall in Tokyo and you never get to meet these people.
We didn't build any social functions into.
It didn't make any sense from a marketing perspective because there was no way of like adding users were being social.
You couldn't even share the photos externally.
People had to take a screenshot in light on dhe.
Share it that way.
But you gotta if if you've got to make stuff,
making your own stuff keeps you pretty honest because there's no there's no greater to give honesty like you're not gonna waste or pad anything.
If you're building your own stuff on,
we wished.
Think it's important.
Thio have tried to learn and refine the way we do things.
They shouldn't really be a different way of doing things between consultancy work,
venture worker,
working your own stuff on that mix for us being in the pressure environment that starts up and being responsible for answering to boards in terms of product development while working with giant tech companies,
or which is interesting tech companies and their products,
which is a different kind of pressure on a different kind of vehicle,
or just working on your or your own stuff that they all like helping us calibrate how we work is we definitely don't have it right yet.
I'm not.
I'm not.
We're not never gonna pontificate about how you should do shit.
We'll just share.
We always like.
Like you said,
you always have to be learning,
right?
Like,
yeah.
I mean,
if you if you think you got it figured out,
then you don't It's screwed.
Yeah,
you're totally fucked.
And so,
like,
you know,
people that I work with probably think I'm nuts.
You know,
I think you gotta be fearless.
That is try things and,
you know,
and and it a rate on your agency.
Like it was a product.
Yeah.
You know,
because,
you know,
you kind of gotta get into some sort of group.
But one thing's for sure,
in my opinion,
if you if you keep doing something one way,
that's only gonna last so long.
Absolutely.
I expect,
you know,
even this with this North stuff stuff that,
you know,
we might take a different course.
I mean,
I'm happy to like,
you know,
the learnings we've had over the 10 years,
like what we've done on us too recently in the last year was kind of go into this more material on a group structure where,
UM,
we spit out the games team is now it's two games.
It's got its own studio now assume well,
having a set in the south of London,
it's got its own studio.
It's nearly 20 people.
They're working on some really cool,
exciting ship.
Um,
we got the studios as a ll groups together and at one company we said for ventures arm,
which kind of looks after a poor,
you know,
relatively minor investments in start ups and equity we've acquired through service is for equity with with people focused on just making that work,
Um on And,
uh,
that'll sits in our group structure.
So we and each of those different structures has,
like,
incentive mechanisms that the reflective of the games industry or the studio industry or or kind of venture so that,
you know,
we've grown up a lot and we definitely want to share everything we like.
Chrissie,
it might not work,
but,
um,
it's bean is being pretty cool.
So far,
we've had to grow up a lot in the last year,
kinda freaked out.
But recent,
once you realize how many people we got how many souls are on this ship and we need Thio.
We need to get Really?
Why?
I think it's awesome,
you know,
like over the over the last year has probably been the most challenging for Natalie and I,
as we realize.
Okay,
we got to be really clear about are,
you know,
are wise statement and how you know what our North star is on all this stuff,
and it's really awesome to point at you,
like,
you know,
like,
you know,
I'm a huge fan,
like,
I don't work for us too,
you know?
But,
you know,
if I wasn't in fun size,
I definitely would,
um But,
you know,
I think I can clearly point to you guys and say,
like,
Okay,
maybe they don't have it all figured out,
but it is possible for people to do what they love doing,
do the best work they can align with people that are,
You know,
experts in their own industries be in to do this and be independent and be able to navigate this very,
uh,
these very chaotic waters that that were on.
And I don't know,
dude,
I just think that's really inspirational.
So I I just have a couple of things toe ask you to sort of,
you know,
before we depart here.
The 1st 1 is,
um how did it feel to see Monument Valley on House of cards?
Yeah,
that was pretty cool when they we were asked a lot whether we paid to do that,
but know that the writers were reached out and because because they loved it on dumb,
we ended up doing special version for firm the president.
That was that was great.
And the crazy thing was like,
you know,
we opened.
We showed all the sales,
but we got out of money value.
But I was I got like,
I won on tweetdeck and I've got,
like,
a permanent search on for Monument Valley.
And it was quite funny because when Monument Valley came out different languages like,
you know,
or people binge watching a different times that this explosion of treat of tweets of like Frank Underwood's playing Monument Valley Holy Fuck eso felt felt great because in a way,
like Goodman,
everybody's like it could have just bombed.
Like we knew it was special When we said reports a typing in the studio but it could have bombed out.
You know,
there's lots of amazing,
beautiful games on experiences out there that don't get that traction.
The premium approach where we wanted to sell it,
you know,
for money,
for the price of a mark,
a proper Frappuccino,
Whatever was crazy.
People have people outraged that we were asking for actual money for something we'd spent eight months making.
But if it felt it felt great,
it's bean.
You know,
Monument Valley,
for me is the gateway drug to us,
too.
It's weed,
you know,
so that a lot of people come across us and because of it,
But it represents in terms of numbers,
it's like 20 people are 300 something.
Um,
but it's it's being great.
And people wanna hang out,
which is which is super cool.
But,
you know,
you could have easily no could've easily No,
not work.
But we've been lucky
let. And the next thing may not work either, but at least you you know, you guys were gonna you know, you can do it and you'll try to do it. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, in the last thing, we can vault this later, but If you're gonna be down here giving your talk for stuff myself less we might as well start talking about getting a group together of other. You know, agency owners, that air coming in town for south by southwest and make something like this happen like another Another talk about this. And if you're not sick and tired of talking about it by then
No,
I'm I'm happy Thio again.
I've been pretty,
like,
sideswiped by people,
actually.
Something I wrote a people getting over through 60 minute reed.
I've begun to kind of serialized and break bits out posters individually.
But I'd love to.
When I'm down in Austin,
I've got I'm gonna try and ah,
I've submitted it for the Southwest.
Uh,
South Southwest panel picker.
Eso I'd love anyone listening to see if they can dig it out,
state the digital nation and avoid it because I'm gonna try and get on stage for one hour.
It'll be like that,
John Maeda one but with 40 mouth.
Yeah,
I would like Thio.
And it's not just agency owners like we're all everyone's in this industry.
Like,
you know,
the engineer design product manager.
Whatever it like,
we care about what we're doing,
and it's this is just really about the environment in which we're doing it.
So I I I hope if I get to talk about it,
we can,
like,
have a nice 20 minutes of,
like,
open discussion with people.
Um,
because we've really got to be.
And I think that's the danger of like,
lack of Independence studios now is like,
people are comfortable,
um,
or they're frustrated,
but don't give a shit because they're doing an own out on our industry suffering for it.
If we're not talking about the stuff,
we care about,
what's right,
what's wrong?
What the opportunities are then,
like,
you know,
it's not healthy.
So we need pissed off.
People need angry People need people to voice up like I'm lucky.
Lucky,
because we really like no interest in anyone buying us.
Ah,
and we just call things,
you know,
hopefully how they are probably wrong a lot of the time,
but at least we're honest about it.
Probably cops and cops him shit for it as well.
But that's okay as well.
Well, that's awesome. Um, those e there listening. Please check out Jules YouTube video. The agency of the future and in search for that same titled Agency of future on South by Southwest panel picker voted up If you love this topic And if you are running an agency, you must read the state of the digital Nation 2016 which is published on Marvel APS. Blawg. Jules, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to come on the show and and talk with me. It's been a real pleasure to meet you. And I hope that this conversation doesn't doesn't end here, I hope. Weaken. Yeah, keep it going.
Awesome. I really appreciate it. And pretty humbled. Uh, you reached out and people are reading it, so I definitely look forward to, like, falling on over a cold, cold beer.
Glass of wine. That sounds good. I'm looking forward to Until then, please tell our listeners how they can, um, learn more about you and us,
too. Yeah, Osteo, I guess through Twitter Bill that we asked to dot com u s t w dot com I'm easy, Jules. Easier. Why J u l e a s or for Americans? Easy. Why J u L e s on and if you just look up. State of digital Nation 2016 We write a lot about stuff we see in feels you should be able to find us somewhere on the
Internet. That's awesome. Thanks, Jules. Thanks for tuning into the darkest face This'll episode of Hustle is brought to you by the Iron Yard. Learn to code and take charge of your career at the iron yard. Dot com Hustle is brought to you by Fun Size, a digital product design studio that craps delightful digital user experiences with inspiring product companies. Follow us at hustle cast and fun size on Twitter.