Welcome back to the hustle podcast. This is Anthony Armendariz. And today I'm here with my good friend Greg Story. Correct stories. The executive director of designing us, eh? Thanks. Here in Austin. Thank you. Travels a bit back and forth between Austin and San Antonio. Greg was formerly a partner at Happy Talk. It is also known as the guy full of hot air in the block. Airbag industries. Correct. Thanks for taking time out of your data. Hop on the hustle podcast again.

Glad to be here.

Yeah, I think the last time you're on the show is maybe two years ago ish. And I think we talked about the future of the design agency, which became a pretty popular episode. I'm kind of curious. Uh, you haven't been in the agency world for a while. How much do you think about agency life these days?

I I think about it quite a bit, because, uh, I still have quite a few friends that run their own studio, including yourself. So I wouldn't say think about on a day to day basis. But, um, you know, I definitely some my mind at least once a week. Sometimes more often than that.

Yeah, I guess. It probably, uh, probably it's probably like smoking. You can't. You know, you're probably even if you quit smoking, you're always gonna be thinking about

it. Yeah. I mean, there's Ah, it's a certain excitement level. You know, there's if I compared to where I am today, Ah, where I was at I b m And then, you know, before that running both happy cog And at the time, one point in time, airbag was its own agency. You know, there's gonna give and take. And so there's days when I wish I was ah, you know,

kind of back at the small studio. And, ah, with all the excitement of selling projects and meeting all the new people learning about new industries, Um, you know those activities compared to let's face it, when your large companies, not all of your meetings, are are, you know, fantastic. Um, so it's, um, in those times when I think about you know, howto what it would be like to be in another smaller studio and be able to really run, you know, operate really fast. A supposed to the slow moving turn of large companies

and that's that's interesting. So why don't you take a moment and just, uh, you know, tell her I guess a little bit about yourself. I'm sure a lot of people know who you are, but, you know, tell us, uh, tell us about Greg story,

just like you said. Currently, I'm at U. S A. I'm leading designed for one of our essentially companies within a company. So I lied about 30 designers designed directors. We have some project managers, and our focus is on all of the investment, uh, products. Ah, within that the USA Cells. I'm I've been designed for 25 plus years. I got started in the web back in 96 from there have pretty much made a website for I can't think of too many things that I haven't made a website for in terms of, like, industry and and verticals. Small.

Too big, you know, to enterprise primarily, though, you know not only being a designer of myself, but I found in, um, if I take a look back of my past have been in charge or leading teams, uh, pretty much all along the way since, um, in those 25 years

Yeah, it's 25 years is a long time. I can only imagine how many? One day? The interesting Thio, if you haven't already count all the the design projects you've worked on it have you, have you? And he Are you Are you pretty big on archiving all the things that you do? And how often do you go back and look at the things that you did, you know, say, 10 or 20 years ago?

Yeah. No, not really. You know, I think part of that asked to do with the fact that, um, at one point in time, all my zip disks died. Um, you know, So I had a lot. A lot of my work was this is But, you know, before cloud before all the stuff we have now that makes backing up so easily, You know, you are so easy to D'oh! So you know what?

Once I lost, like my 1st 10 years, uh, I haven't really Yeah, I I haven't really kept ah back catalogue of work

for those young people listening that don't know what a zip disk is. It's essentially an extremely large It looks like a floppy disk. Maybe five times a stick, and it held What about 25 megawatt

called 100 and knows about 100 100? Yes. Yeah, And they were notorious for one minute working and literally the next, uh, the click of death meant that that disc was gone. Yeah, it was. And, um, that's all we had were, like, hard drives back then while we have them. It was like, Ah, you know, 10 Meg hard drive was, what, 10 times the cost of a zip drive. And so it wasn't as practical to have things like quote hard drives back in those days. A stupid Is that

sound that bring some back so many memories. I wonder how much of my time I spent in college on my portfolio just tryingto love director files on various. Is it justice to be able to develop project?

Yeah, let's you know, software used to come on disk, and I remember photo shop was like, what, 10 discs, you know, toe, um, install And and I think the worst installation I ever had to go through his 25 disks to install an application. Yeah, pretty, pretty dull.

Yeah. Yeah. So before we get into, you know, talking a little bit more about some design stuff. I'm curious. You know, I I've never worked in a an ultra large organization. What are some of the biggest challenges that that you are us? A design faces?

It's pretty easy. There's still a lot of people out in the world that don't know what design is. You know, they they have an idea of what graph what. What they think of design is is mostly graphic design, right? There's not a lot of context for people out there in terms of how designers of and evolved into new ways, methods and techniques for actually making helping to make business decisions, um, happening to test theories, helping to engage with users, uh, just just a cup tools. And put all this together to help shape, um, and inform both the strategy of the company and its services and products that it sells. And that whole message,

despite you know, Harvard Business Review and Fast Company and whatever name whatever business publication is out there, and Design is now an annual issue. Design is now a regular feature in publications and conversations about business. But despite that in these large companies, You know where there are people like myself who have had But there have been at that company for 10 15 20 years. I guarantee you, if you come across, somebody has been working for the same place for 20 years. The blinders that they walk around with are so big and they don't understand, they don't understand that they they don't know what they don't know. To some degree, they've just stopped looking outside the company walls. And so the biggest surprise to me is is that you know how much people get so comfortable that they don't They don't. You go outside the fence, you know,

and in doing so, our in not doing so they're they're just missing kind of, you know, the world evolving around them. And, um, they typically chase after things once they start getting their butt kicked right, and then they start paying attention to what's going on really paying attention. What's going on the outside world. But I'd say, you know, by and large, design is still brand new baby brand new Thio I would say hundreds of thousands of that millions of people in business uh, today

Yeah, But companies like USA like even though maybe not Everyone understands design. They least tell me from wrong, understand that they need to invest in it, right? So maybe that's the box that's checked, But maybe it's about is it about how little leverage it? Or is it, uh or I mean, what is the What is it? You know, for what you're saying earlier about people to understand design. I mean, what does that translate to in, like, actual problems that you face? Is it about like, how to get the right resource? Is our doing the project right or what? Kind of Well,

it's It's all of those little of those things, you know. But, well, I still have people coming to my designers and saying, Hey, uh, can you make this look good? Uh, right. And so they, they the business, have in a vacuum, uh, come up with what the solution is. And they don't understand that if they'd come to us earlier, we could have helped them ensure that,

you know, has helped test their theories, that their ideas about what the marketplace needs, Um, and I'm not talking about USA in particular. This this happens, you know, everywhere. Um, there's there's just not. And I'd say It's I I kind of blame ourselves. I blame design, but I really see what's going on is it's It's just a large communication problem, you know? So people like myself and you other designers, we're tapped into a lot of the same threads,

right? We follow some of the same people on Twitter on medium. We read a lot of the same articles and books. And so, you know, to some degree, you think, especially after 25 years, Um, you know, surely people have picked up on what's going on here in kind of what we do, especially with all the It's a conversation sometimes argument about, you know, design, having it's seated the table and and we've got it. And that would to some degree we feel like we don't know how to had a campaign way.

We got the seat. It's like, Okay, cool. We're here. But what I'm saying is we don't realize that we have to push push on the campaign further right? We have to continually remind people who we are, what we d'oh. Um I t does a great job of this right? And to some degree, just because of the way that that, um I t that world evolves. Not to mention, you know, you still have to have I t around, you know,

continue to fix things. But I t does a great job of communicating to business and communicating the value. And, um, you know, letting people know why they're at the table, how to talk to them, what they can expect. You know, in my experience, I've seen where that part of the organization does a really good job of this and design does not, And and I one of the causes of that Francis is that often designed. You referenced the check in the box? Yes. I think companies hire a VP or the higher head of design. They give that person a modest budget and and say,

OK, go make the design organization that you feel we need. And I've seen this and read stories to know that I'm like, this is happening on a larger scale, but, um, you know, they the said head of design goes and makes a plan and says, Okay, this is the design kind of, ah organization that we need to build it to help you make world class experiences, and the business will come back and say, OK, um, you'll get half that right? So while I think there's a lot of leaders out there that recognized that design is important,

they themselves don't quite understand why. So it's kind of like I don't get this, but, um, I'm not gonna fully, you know, invest in this. But I'll give you just enough money to stand something up, to see, See how this goes, right? Yeah, and ah, you again. And I want to be clear. That's not the story,

necessarily at USA. That's more of, Ah, an amalgamation of things that I've have seen heard read about. But I feel it at large. A fortune 500 maybe even Fortune 1000 that that's what's going on.

Yeah, I think you know you're right. I mean, it's like not not everyone has the same problems, but I think it's ah, good summary of like, you know, a lot of the challenges that designers face. And this is probably where you know related to this article that you turned me on to call the designs lost Generation there's a couple of, like, a a couple of things about that related to what you're saying that when I when I briefly skinned it that immediately set out it's that Well, okay, so the seats at the table there and the box is checked designed that I think, Ah, lot of people are inspired by, say, start up culture,

just like moving really fast. And so there were moving really fast. But not knowing why we're doing that or or pushing back or making sure that we're doing it right or properly, there's, Ah, there's something from here that I'll just read out loud clothes from Mike Montero's article. There's no longer room in Silicon Valley to ask why they're two words. Every designer needs to feel comfortable saying no, and why those words of the foundation of what we do that the foundation of building ethical framework. If we cannot cannot ask why, then we lose the ability to judge whether the work we're doing is ethical. If we cannot say no, we lose the ability to stand and fight. This is just a few things that, like stood out. I mean,

a couple of different examples, like maybe in the enterprise world, like, you know, not really able Thio fully leverage designed the way that we want, or maybe being inspired by the move fast culture of the Arian and modeling these these organizations are after, you know, Bay Area companies, but also at the you know, in the product. In the smaller product companies, a lot of companies spend significant amount of money on designed. Both internal resource is an external resource is. But the way that they design sometimes is a is a really misuse of those budgets, like, you know,

certain things like just like turn for turns that sake instead of, like, really leveraging design best practices to, you know, tackle a problem. I see this a lot, too. I think a lot of you know it's not as bad as maybe you used to be. But it is challenging toe to navigate that sometimes.

Yeah, that whole, you know, fail fast mentality of my bus. Ah, Mariah Gear it. Who's the head of design at USA? We were both that, um, envisions first annual employees get together. Ah, and Mariah spoke at a panel there, and she said something that that I don't know if I heard anybody else say, which is she doesn't want to fail fast, per se. Sh wants to fail cheap, right?

And so on. What she means by that is, uh you could fail fast and spend a lot of money and a lot of effort that's misdirected to your point. Uh, what we want to do is fail early, you know, and and so that we're not We're avoiding all those costs, but they had that whole go fast culture, you know? I don't know. I I think we're gonna look back and say What? That by and large, what did that get us? Yeah. And, uh,

what what had it did? You didn't really improve the world by, you know, moving as quickly as we did. Because we know from the stories the few stories that might shared in his article there's a lot of damage that could be done, a lot of collateral damage by not paying attention to all the all the little Ah, nooks and crannies of the experiences that we're building. And, you know, I can do you just attack on more stuff too,

in another generalization. But I but I also see this emerging is that I think, you know, even early career designers want to ask why. But I think sometimes they're scared, too, because of that move. Fast mentality like there Some, you know, sometimes too scared. Thio Ask why or to take a step back and understand that there really solving the right problem, favoring like, creating screens as fast as possible.

Well, I think some of that fear comes from designers not knowing enough about business, right to be able to kind of stand their ground and and be able to respond. Thio that that n b A graduate who's now playing been put in charge of, ah, 10 million or $50 billion line of business, right? And so you look at the product managers, specifically the that are in the Bay Area, all of those air NBA's and lawyers and for the most part, to your point about generalization. And you know that they're just looking at I I just got to college, I got this job, Uh, and I gotta prove myself, you know, I want to turn my $10 million annual revenue line of business into 1/2 a $1,000,000,000 I want to do it in two years,

right? And so if that's your mentality, then that's what this does. Go fast. Um, kind, no fucks given attitude comes from right. Even when people get harmed, it's That's well, you know, you're you gotta break a few things along the way. You know, Uh, kind of mentality comes in a place.

This, uh, this point about designers, you understand, business better is very relevant that are timely relevant to me. We Last evening, Natalie and I spoke to a room at a C. C. One of the questions. They asked us What? What do you think designers need toe be taught? Maura Natalie said business like it was in a very deep conversation, but I think I think that that is, that is true. Yeah, t be ableto, you know,

play at that level. But would you also say or would you agree or disagree that these business minded people say, like a product manager that's thinking about doubling revenue should be thinking more about delighting users as a way to do that. Like, Do you think that this do you think it's ah, an area where you know you know, designing business needs toe be better at coming. You're finding

coming around. Yeah, and I think that's part of designs. Roll right is and this is I I feel like a lot of ways. All the functions of digital business are are segregated. Sure, Yeah. You've got your teams, that with the product people and the designers and developers all embedded in their singing Kumbaya. But you know, how much does each each other know about? You know, the other's needs and especially when it comes to the business, right? So I think that the whole thing of convincing business that delighting users will lead to good whether that's, you know, whatever.

Ah, scaling your audience, more revenue, better profits, whatever those things are. But until we can speak the language of business right and and weekend to some degree talk their talk, then we're just going to be the people that make things look good. Um, I was just right, Rumsey, you know, he works at USA now to ah and strategy. But he says, Ah, cross Herbie And we've been talking about this for a couple of weeks, about,

you know, and this kind of dovetails on that argument of designers. You learn how to code. Sure, but if I was to prioritize anything designers need to learn business, they need. They need to understand that language. Um, and I would also add to that the designers need to be put on the hook for the performance of the thing that they're making. And that's something I don't think I've seen to date even when we were when I was in the In the business of selling design and trying to think of new models, uh, you know, we were never put on the hook if the thing that we made didn't perform the way we thought it should, and that was in a lot of ways, just because the business arrangements, you know,

that were that we we worked through, there were times I tried to create new new models new, um, you know, ways of working with clients so that, you know, we'd kind of stick around a little bit longer to make sure. Hey, all those ideas that we had did it, Did it work? Did it actually makes the user do the thing that you wanted the user to do and and as the user happy. And I just could not convince anybody anywhere. Our, um our customers, our clients too, And I couldn't interest in that.

Can I deal now? That's sort of where we are at U. S. A. Um you know, the way that the business is organized is at the end of the day, it's the people that run the business that are on the cook to deliver certain certain amount of revenue, a certain amount of accounts, all that kind of stuff. Why it And I I Why is it designed right there? You know, with them, Why don't why don't we share some of the burden along with I t along with, you know, strategy, all the different players in there?

Everybody should have a little skin in the game for both. Uh, you know, both good if it if we win, If we made the thing, it's it's doing what everybody wanted, then cool, right then celebrate. Good times. Um, if it's not, then I think that that the burden of that should be shared and we should. We should share some of that responsibility.

That's that's really interesting. So there's a There's a lot to unpack your first, like in relationship to this designs Lost Generation article by by My Montero. Um, there's a concept of accreditation, right and time time designed to deeper understanding and in professionalism. Then there's what you just said about skin in the game, which I find very interesting. It's like, Well, you know, perhaps there should be assured that sharing metrics between like, uh, business roles and design roles, which include, like financial metrics and KP eyes, but also like user delight and things like that.

And then there's an article that Jeff Result in wrote recently. I think where he talks about why or he's, I think I think he's I think he's talking about is why our designer sort of designing post engagement, right? Like WeII designed this thing that, you know, we designed for months of assumptions and course. Mabel user test that. But what about all the optimization and, like actually fine tuning of the metrics Post launch. You know, maybe we should be thinking about about those things up a little bit more. What do you What do you think about all that? Well,

if I could work backwards and hope I can remember each point. But, um, that whole engagement that's Ellman's talking about, you know, where you bring us in to design a thing, and as soon as we deliver it, you know, there's a handshake celebration, and then, you know, we're both go on to the next thing, right? I can't tell you how frustrating it was to me that we would hand off dissolve our designed liberals, and then our clients would just peace out right and and would have rarely ever hear anything back from them about. There was one time one time when we designed at Airbag Weed is redesigned Cem templates for the nation, which is the oldest running magazine in the United States.

And they were, ah, interesting group of people to work with. Didn't know much about the Web. They had hired another U ex agency to take a look at some of their problems that had to do with revenue and member numbers. And that U ex agency came up with all the wire frames that was going to save the world. And they handed it to us that airbag for, uh, for visual editorial design, right? So some people might call it just coloring the wire frames. It was a little bit more involved in that. But essentially, we we did the thing that we were told to to dio, right? We were not involved in the in the research,

the discovery, you know, u ex process, and we deliver their files. They launched the new design, and ah, about four days later, I get an email from the publisher, um, and and she very long email, and basically, she was begging us to please come back and help them because it was an absolute disaster, a complete failure. And at the time I tried to explain, you know, um,

I'm sorry, but we didn't come up with your new ad system. We didn't We didn't design these things to some degree that we didn't. We weren't the ones behind this strategy, and it took a few more emails and conversations for her to understand. You know that that that was the case. And like since that time, I tried to imagine, you know, instead of let's pick a number, you know, and then I'm gonna hire you for $50,000 to design X right? What it really should be doing is Anthony. I got $50,000. Once you designed as much as you can of X. Let's prioritize what that means.

But I only I only want you to work on it for half the engagement. The next half, we're gonna implement what you've designed, and they're gonna work with you for the next three months to tweak it, right? That's why I could never couldn't. Once I got the happy Kaga, couldn't I had a hard time convincing folks that that was the way that we should be doing business, right? And it just makes a lot of sense to me, really make sense to me today. But yes, I completely agree with that idea.

Yeah, well, that's Ah, you know, just trying again. I mean, I definitely understand that problem, innit? I consider myself lucky, because I think that's a from a problem. That fun side is a business doesn't really face because our model is actually geared towards solving that problem in the engagement model. So you know, for better, we're sure there may be problems elsewhere. You know, it's about selling the engagement as a combination of both liked designing and optimizing the solution. But also like our relationship versus framed as a

project within India and lump sum, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but But I do wonder. And maybe you were about to chime in on this and I interrupted you. But if we want to speak the same language of business, should we should we be tying ourselves to achieving KP

eyes? Well, I mean, that's I think, to some degree, the reason that designers had such a hard time gaining the respect of business and others is one We talk a lot about empathy, but I I would argue that the business would look back to design and say You're not empathizing enough, you know, howto swoop in and empathize for the customer through your research. But where's the empathy for for the business, for your for your coworkers, right? Yeah. You want us to talk about design? You want us to learn your design thinking and do all the design things, But where you meeting us in the middle? And a lot of times I think the answer is nowhere to be found right.

Design and designers want to kind of live in the bubble, and that's a pretty that's a pretty big generalization. I think the designers have in the past wanted to live in the bubble and seeing MME. Or evidence that designers now to some degree or seeing a bit of this to, um, I think a lot of that desire to learn business from from designers comes from the fact that when they're in meetings there, lost in the sauce when it comes to the conversation. And, um, as much as business has come to meet us in our world, I just don't I think we gotta learn to reciprocate and probably even go the distance. Go even further than that, too. And I'm not talking about turning designers in the business people. I'm talking about a design putting a designer and a business person in a room, and they can actually have a conversation that both sides understand, and to the point that the business knows that the designer respects what is on the line and how much they're on the hook to deliver. You know what that ISS they're looking for for respect to some degree, and and there's no reason why we shouldn't be trying trying to provide that for them.

Yeah, I think that's huge. You know, I wasn't really I didn't know. We read End up talking about this today, but I I agree with this and, you know, there's something. I mean, there's so much here, but like a you know, in a one example that might be relevant to a lot of designers. And listening to this is like, Well, you know, that frustration that you get when you're stakeholder, whether it be an internal stakeholder or an external client,

Blank doesn't select your design. And so you you know you lose interest because like, you get a bit but her or that you know, the certain you know, sort of aesthetic direction. You didn't get you worked on so hard wasn't picked. And maybe sometimes it's because you, you know, to Mike's point, you didn't ask why. Like what? What's the mission behind this project, right? Is it on really understanding the expectations like, is it actually a value to the business to move slow or fast, like you know?

What do you know what kind of cadence? Sorry. Favoring what are they expected? Outcomes Like, how did these outcomes affect the greater mission? And why is this mission important not just to the users but to the business into the world. Uh, yeah, This is something that I think about a lot. And I think the way that the way that I'm approaching this right now is that just fundamentals, like trying to sort of, uh, redesign the creative brief Or, you know, in a way that becomes, like an alignment tool for, you know, for stakeholders of very various roles, Toe designed the

engagement together. Yeah, that's I love that a lot. You know, it's, um it means a lot to business in my experience means a lot to people in the business when you're reading them for the first time, and and if your first question is, what can I do for you? You know, I I get a lot of I get a lot of business people who you could almost see. There's a bit of relief on their face because I didn't ask them what you know. What kind of design problem are you having or, you know, what can I draw for you or whatever that is? You know, design is here to help. That that now is are,

you know, kind of through evolution that has a role. We're problem solvers. And so, like, what are the problems? Um, and I think if we can if we can remember that that that should always be our first question to our partners, you know, both. Even even in an I t. Right all around the room. What's keeping you up at night? I think it starts there and and then you mentioned KP eyes. I think it's very difficult to be a good partner. Ah,

good team player. If you're the only one in the room who does not have KP eyes, great. If everybody else around there has got some form of metrics, um, some, some form of a new Marais shin to help determine whether they're successful or not in their job. And Ryan can kind of figure that out the right metrics to help help measure something about design. Ah, but when we enter the room or were in those those meetings and everybody else's ass is on the line and they're looking at spreadsheets, horrible spreadsheets, you know, with with numbers that makes everybody's eyes glaze over. But those those the tools that are being used to determine the effectiveness of that person's job performance, that that job and the effectiveness of that role. And then it comes to design.

And we just give that shrug. You know, that emoji shrug thing. You know, there's then, yeah, that that illustrates why it's taken so long for us to quote, get a seat at the table, right and why we still struggle even with that seat. While we still struggle to earn the respect of the rest of the room,

I think it's ah, in addition to understanding the you know, it's really understanding the impact of the whole thing, right? And you know, sure, sometimes a design project is just about a design project. But very often it goes very much deeper than that, like setting this stakeholder up for success or, you know, proving ah different working model so that things could be better from the design organization in the future, or for empowering someone with ideas for alignment. Or, you know, there's there's a lot of other things to understand, and I think that you know, the business metrics being one of those.

But yeah, I think that if designers can understand business and, you know, speak that language better, but also understand, Like what? The importance of the the work. Outside of just the actual design solution, I find that it's usually not a simple is just designing something. But if there's always something else, you know, there's always something else. And if it's ah, documented And like you said, If people understand, you know what, you know what they're there to do and what success looks like then I think, you know, Well, maybe it

is. But I also think it goes one step further, which is so right now I have I just had a conversation with a senior experience owner, and, uh, we were talking about how the team is a hole around this particular product. Um, it's trying to work with one of my design teams to, you know, figure out where where do we get started on this project. Now this particular, um, experience has been on the books for a while. It's something that they've wanted to do, wanted to do for years, and they're just now coming around to finally being able to work on it, right?

And so in the course of those years, though, other parts of the company have done what I would consider some pretty extensive research. Ah, some primary lot of secondary. You know, a lot of things from reports that have come out from all those big reporting companies anyway. So the group is the whole feels like they've got a good Paul son, what we need to dio. And when they bring in a new design group, that's that's fairly new to the company and doesn't have that history. And they say, Okay, what's the next steps? And the designers say, Well,

we've got to do a project kickoff and we've got to do research now To some degree, yes, that's the right answer. Right? Um, but then the rest of business is stunned and to some degree mortified because they have already, over the course of a couple years, been been doing some research. And so then all of a sudden, there's this huge disconnect between the business saying, Well, we don't understand. We've done research and design saying, Yeah, but you didn't do it the right way, right?

And what were in that? This is the conversation that I had is what what we need to do is designers, is to have a little bit of empathy that be about the people who came before us and the effort that sort of been put in play. And this is where we need to put our own business hat on and say, Yikes Okay, the company is probably invested, you know, x amount of dollars in this. And there's a lot of time in this. And yes, to some degree there's Let's there's some pride in the work as it is right now from from the people that we work with. And so maybe we ought not to swoop in and just say, Hey, thank God for you that design is here to make this right, you know? So one and two,

Um, I think just being pragmatic from a business point of view of how much research do you really need to do before you just certain you go make a thing and go test it right? And I think it's in that second scenario where there's a lot of room for us, too. Well, we have to catch up, and in some ways right we have to be able to come in and say, Man, we have this whole process for how to design in the right way, and and we have to be mindful the business to the point that we can can look to ourselves and say We're not gonna be able to do everything right. We're not gonna be able to do everything in the perfect world of design. So let's pick and choose some of our battles. Let's prioritize. You know, if we get to do one thing here to add just this project, what is it?

And and go with that, not sit there and and and, you know, cross our arms and say, Well, that's not the right way And then just kind of shut down.

Yeah, that's, um that's interesting, too. Like I, um, I use the word persona very rarely saw. Just use the word profile, but and, you know, without doing like a formal document. One of the things that I encourage designers to do sometimes is too. Create profiles for their customers, not not the nothing businesses, customers, but the actual clients that are hiring us so that we can create that empathy that you talked about earlier are like, you know,

Jim, Bob has been working on this thing for a year. He's hired to vendors. Both projects have been, you know, failures. You know what Jim Bob needs is like a quick wit. And we get his trust Or, like, you know, are you know, suit Susie needs to see deliverables and, like, low fidelity before she could make decisions. But then, you know,

at that point, we could work like this, and I encourage people. Sometimes I think about that because I think what you're saying. Well, it's interesting, far right, cause, you know, we want designers to be asking questions like why? But but are But we need to be flexible about the way that we approach that we meaning empathetic about the way we approach it, you know, because if we if we're if we're too strong about it that we then we're, you know, we're forcing our way in and, well, potentially causing

chaos. Yeah, in kind of getting over your skis. Right. Um and what? I mean, but that is no, my talk, Scott asking why, uh, and and saying no. But then what? Right. What's after that? And I mean, I agree 100% with everything that might wrote in that article, but designers did more than just that,

right? I remember, um, interviewing at Uber three years ago. And, um, I was like, one of those all day things and I wasn't offered a job. And I talked to head of design at the time, and he kind of gave an indication that the reason I didn't get a job is that some of the younger designers felt that if there was something wrong about a design that I wouldn't stand up and say, you know, stop. You know, our Why are we doing this? Which is kind of interesting. But the reason I bring up the story is,

you know, just saying, Why isn't enough? It's a good start, but you know, you could you could stop the press. You can stop a room. You can be that designer in a review that stands up and makes a bold statement. But then where's where's that conversation going to go? And can a designer than you know, talk on that level mano a mano with the business to defend? Why they're asking why, if I help, that makes sense, but it's it's we need more vocabulary. We need more than just the why,

Um, that's just the this that the scratch, right? It's what we need to do. But there's a lot more that that needs to happen, because we can do that now. But if we don't have the ability to carry on the conversation past asking why we're past saying no, then we're toast. We're no better off than we

are now, Yeah, the concepts around, you know, all discussion on a wire. You know, I read lots of books about this stuff, and you gotta have a why, what and how and, you know, Yeah, it's important for everyone to understand so that they can execute a mission properly. I've been really fascinated with this book called Extreme Ownership. Have you read that? No. Um, it's Ah,

it's written by two Navy seals about the way that they design and execute special operations. I think it talks about everything like how they you know how they create them, briefing how they conduct themselves, how they how they break into pods and how they make sure that there's like, just, you know, total concept of alignment. You know, up and down the rings. It's something that I think about a lot because, you know, I'm not. I'm not designing projects anymore. I'm trying to design the way people work together. So mean, Yeah.

I mean, well, I don't ask you one more question. It's because, uh, I'm curious. You said that the we need to be able to go beyond. Why, like, can you elaborate a little bit more on some of your thoughts there? About how, like a designer in a situation like that? You know,

I think it's it's, um I think it's a matter again of of, you know, that the Y in the know is to some degree halting the process, right, getting attracting attention to Hey, guys, uh, and gals, I don't think that everybody, I think everybody's kind of drinking the Kool Aid here, right? And I think the next step is to be able to talk about that. The why should definitely, you know, come the discussion should be about the design, of course.

But what what is the impact on the business? Right. And that's that's the piece that I think, um, that I hope maybe Michael right about, you know, I hope he carries on this This article and and and builds upon it. Ah, he's got a pretty good start to a book. Um, but ah ah, I would love to see more examples of people contributing. You know, their own version of that story and how they were able to talk about of the design work that was in front of people and whether they they continued or they stopped. But what was also the business part of that conversation? How does a designer say,

Look, you don't want to put the button there because the impact to the business will be this right? Or we don't want to continue Cher's because we know that 80% of our users are looking for this, Not this which over time could impact revenue by this Now, I mean, that's I'm I'm speaking in some you know, I think that everybody needs to understand the business that they're working in, not just business in general, because I could tell you, uh, selling annuities is different than selling life insurance then, which is different than providing car insurance, right, So it's it's ah, you know, should we know business in general?

Yes, but when you're working, whatever you're working on whatever is in front of you. Whatever industry you're in, you need to learn the vocabulary. You know as much as you can. And you need to understand, um, what is it? What are the products and service is that your experiences are, ah, both selling and servicing. Right? Um but that that's, uh that's what I mean, you know, kind of going behind the going beyond the Y.

That's really insightful. I love the pick your brain about that more sometime over a drink, where were local into each other. And sometimes we've been good about hanging out, but it feels like it's been a while since we left him pretty busy. We should get some hang out, hang out time for sure.

That sounds sounds good

before. Yeah, yeah, before before we wrap up, I'm just curious. I mean, what do you What do you hope to accomplish this year? 2018. What are some of the things that you're gonna

be thinking about working on? Um, well, it work. One of things that I'm working on is I've got design teams in Austin and in San Antonio. And, um, some of those teams have been in the company for years, many years and then, you know, in Austin, I've got teams that have barely been there a year, if that. And so there's there's a lot of cultural differences. Everybody's very kind or another week. We hang out very well. And,

um, you know, when it comes to, um, getting together as a family, you know, maybe when you've got I know this from happy cock when you have two teams that that are come from two different backgrounds have two different work environments. Just they're they're two different entities bringing them together, Um, where the actors as a single organization could be very difficult. And at happy cog, we kind of got around that by virtual izing the entire company. You know, Bye bye. So that we didn't just have teams in Philadelphia and teams in Austin. We had we we just took everybody's split him up and had five virtualized teams.

Now there was a really interesting experiment. And what it did, is it immediately eliminated the They have this we have that, um, you know, kinda have and have nots that went away overnight, but it also created five virtual cultures. You know, whereas it created just different cultural problems. And so, uh, one of things that that I want to be working with my groups with my designers is what What is appropriate? You know, it's I think it's, um it's not a good idea to force these two groups to interact all the time. Um,

but the same time I feel like we we need to be taking advantage of all the different experiences in the room, you know, too. So, to some degree, how do I take all these backgrounds and life experiences and professional experiences? And, um, what are some of the events in the celebrations? Um uh, that we should be ceremonies to that we should be conducting to take advantage of ah, more inclusive group when we're together. Right? And and where's that tipping point where? All right, it's just too much,

right? There's just too much trying to get everybody together. Um, that that's something I'm gonna be, uh, is very much top of my mind right now. Ah, the other is finding a project to work on. You know, as I know, you know, when you get up in the years and I'm certainly not designing anything right now. I've been working with Jen Dairy on plucky and ah designed the, um, the plucky starter pack for having better one on one conversations. I'm very happy to see it.

That's when I can tell is being very, very successful thus far. And I think that's we do scratched the surface on that. Um, but in that project, I'm more of helping a friend. I'm not making any money from from that whatsoever, but more importantly, it's kind of kind of done with that work. Now I'm looking for the next project and something that I can just some degree, maybe tinker on. But I've got to find something because I being a designer, and I mean a designer, you know, somebody with artistic skill. Ah, and and not being able to practice that, um, it's starting to eat at me.

Maybe you and I can find a project to work on together because I'm in the same boat

now. I'm all ears. I, um you know, i e you and I have talked about this about, you know, trying to find something. Ah, editorial related. And, um so I you know, I have been I don't have any ideas that just, you know, pop off the page. Ah, and in the interim, I'm trying to read Ah,

lot more than I have in years gone by. And ah, thus Ah. You know, I feel if you read more, you write more. Some train. I'd flex those muscles again as well.

Well, it's awesome, Greg, let's get together and talk about how we can create a credit project, but nothing else. Go, go have a steak or something. Catch up.

E love It sounds

good. Thanks for taking time, Thio. Help on the show again. Why don't you, uh, let everyone know how they can follow all of your adventures?

Um, easiest thing is brilliant crank that's on Twitter. Instagram. Ah, all of the things. If you goto goto airbag industries dot com, there's links to all of those things to follow me. And, um, that's where I've started Thio Right again, you know, but so airbag industries dot com.

All right. Thanks, Greg. Thanks, everyone, Tune in. We'll see you all next time. Thank you. Cheers. Russell is brought to you by fun size, A digital service and product

design agency that works with inspiring teams to uncover opportunities about popular products, bring new businesses to market and prepare for the future. Learn more at fun Size dot CEO I'm mad. Good reason. You a design lead at fun size. Thanks for listening the hustle and be on the lookout for our next episode.