well started. Do it cool. So thank you very much for tuning into the fun size podcast called The Hustle. Appreciate you joining us today. Today we're joined by Adams ST from bench. Then you can go check out their side of bench taco. I'm with I'm Rick. Rick Messer of a product designer at fun size. I'm with Anthony Anthony. Experienced director and partner. Fun size, part time janitor. Dog dog sitter. Yeah, we're with Adam ST. Hey, Adam. How's it going, man?

Hey, Rick. Thanks for having young

Yemen. Absolutely, Adam, you are a product designer at bench. Can you just give us a little bit of an overview of what? What benches and what it

does. What makes it unique? Yeah, for sure. I think what's unique about us is that we've taken a really, really traditional pain in doing business, which is bookkeeping. And we've smoothed it out completely and kind of taken it off of the plates of entrepreneurs by mixing, mixing some classical elements of service with software and design.

Yeah, Anthony was telling me that you guys kind of like, basically, you get a real human being. Rights, not just automated software,

is that is, that is, that is, that is bench, I would consider is more an accounting firm than SAS company. Certainly we take product design and technology very seriously, but we believe that's just one tool in the kid of rendering really exceptional service for her customers.

Yeah, no doubt. I mean, Anthony raves about it. Why? Why is it called Bench? What does that mean? I just thought of bad just now. It's I think someone's gonna ask me, and I don't actually know what What's with the name come from? You know, Do you have a good answer for me? Maybe I shouldn't put you on the spot with that.

No, I mean it depends how far

down the rabbit hole I asked a bigger question than you thought

originally when we started out way back when just kind of as a sass company. Well, that's what we thought we were. We were called 10 sheet. I did not think you with that name. That was my co founder of the insole, placed the blame squarely on him. But at a certain point, we realized I had to re brand and really start getting serious about our identity So we went through a whole bunch of different exercises and keyed in on a theme that we really liked. That kind of came. You want to say, like post Web to point out where people will stop making up stupid

words. I'm so glad that's over. Dude, I'm so glad to point. Oh, well, do point. Oh, doesn't s no bencher

or venture Way wanted Thio. We liked the theme of re appropriating Common Now owns, uh, that vote desert viewing or moved on d really like to bench on it fit with actually our financial background too, if you actually go back and look at the history of bookkeeping and banking and all that sort of stuff. It was first developed as an industry in Renaissance Italy on git was literally served from the bench in open air markets. Three Italian for benches, bunker or now bank.

What? Well, that's interesting. Oh, my gosh. I had no idea. I was asking such an in depth historical question that that is actually that's really cool.

It is cool. Don't get me wrong. We came a bench first, liked it and then we tried to fix it with a bunch of cool historical stuff. Yeah. Insurgent. Yeah. You know, it goes.

Wow, that's cool. Yeah, definitely did not know that. That's pretty neat. Glad you asked that question. Cool. Adam, we wanted to talk to you today about product design. Obviously, you know a thing or two about that. We do a bit of that ourselves, and we are just talking all the time about what are the responsibilities of being a product designer because it's obviously more than just being, you know, I'm a U ie designer. I'm an icon, designer,

i'ma illustrator. I'm, you know, specified. You know, things like a product designer is gonna have a much broader role of responsibilities. And that list just continues to grow. So it's a certain point. One nasty ass themselves. Where does this end? Like what wind does When do you become? Because certainly, like one person can't just be in charge of every facet, you know, that that comes along. So,

um, in the future, what is a product designer look like? Because there's obviously been a bit of evolution on the product designer like that. Even even the term itself is sort of knew. But, um, I thought we would just just talk a little bit about what are the what is a designer a product signer look like in the future, right? And where do we draw the line on what the responsibilities are, right? I mean, is it all necessary to, you know, be in charge of not only the design and the U ex, but also then the code?

And, you know, you're a friend and developer. You're all these. All these sorts of things. What? What? What do you think is like the line, right? Like when? When do you think? Okay, this This is a specialist job special. You know, person in charge of this or whatever.

Yeah, it's an interesting topic. I think like that. Like you said, the term product designers is pretty recent and sort of became trendy to just wrap up all those activities in product design on dhe. I think when you mentioned broadness, that's really the crucial point. Like if you look at the definition of what product is, it's really just the totality of all of the output, whether it's service or or tangible items or whatever that come out of a company. Think product designers responsibility job is to be cognizant of all of those things and understand enough of them that here she condemn, erect the entire process so often that does involve knowing how to animate or design you, I or any of those things. But yeah, I think it is. It is the role of a consummate generalist, someone who needs thio understand enough to work with specialists like like a Nikon designer or an animator or a graphic designer.

And my great un understand where those tools and where the output fits into the overall system that the product designers working on. What is, uh, what's it like a bench? How's how's your team sort of set up? E. My team is very small right now. There's two of us were expanding soon, but, um, I think just by default, because of our limited size, we we completely embody this this vision of the broader designer as the constant generalist,

an important, very important point. Thio ad is the size of the team because it is more of like you're saying a generalist when you're on a smaller team because you're quite frankly out of necessity, right? I think it's also In some cases, it's miss misunderstood. Like when I worked at every note, that team had a strong history of valuing engineering team that I was on had two designers. And, yeah, 20 or 30 engineers. Yeah, I've been in that bus so it can be intentional, but sometimes it's sometimes just sometimes some teams. I think they're structured that way from, you know, because of ignorance.

But I think sometimes it's intentional. I'm really I have something that I've been talking about lately that's directly related to this, that I'd like to see if you guys agree with. Recently, did I talk called Adapting to change? I was talking to a bunch of agency owners about how how we what we need to be thinking about in the future, t to stay relevant, and the best way that I could just sort of describe summarized. The whole talk is like if you imagine a skateboard ramp right and the left side of the ramp where it's like Deep and Broad is where we were when Webb was just coming out because designers had, you know, the web was young and we had an interactive DVD Rome, and so we were generalists. We need a little bit of animation. We knew a little bit about copyrighting and storytelling. We knew a little bit about audio. We knew Justin.

We were just at that stage learning how to design user interfaces and then towards the middle of the ramp. As you know, as the Web got so big, responsive, Web and mobile specifically, I think what has happened is for a while now things have been People have been very specialized, like I'm a mobile designer. That's about where it goes down on the half pipe and it gets more narrow. And as you know, you know, this product and service world is just starting. So my prediction is that to be relevant, to be hirable, to not fall off the face of the Earth or change jobs. You have to be a generalist. Yeah,

and it's so sort of like started out general, you're saying then sort of narrowed. And now it's sort of opening up again to more of general. But I also think that people should be t shaped, you know, like brought, you know, brought in general, but deep. One area in one area that's that's cool Adam. I apologize, man. I think I cut you off there. What? You were talking about your team?

Um, yeah. I mean, I'm thinking more about what Anthony said. Actually, uh, sorry. It's fun. I agree with Anthony Sentiment, and I think what product design meeting is and it's it's not to stay that it's necessarily above any of those specialties. But I feel like it's a natural evolution as someone moves from being immersed in the craft and understanding all of those things. And then they want Thio start to get deeper into the actual core of whatever business they're working with on DDE moving to management. You know, that kind of stuff? I hesitate to say management, but really it is a form. I think progress is a form of direction,

like your director for a system of activities, and you need enough understanding that t shaped understanding of specifically designed sub specialties, but also the entire business to really effectively direct the product. So I think on the path of being a product designer, it is vital for you to immerse yourself in all those things like typography and graphic design and animation, and really understand all those different aspects and love them. But eventually you start to become interested in more than that. Like how do these, instead of just being a craft person or ah, or a vendor of these sort of artifacts and outputs, you want to take control of more than that and slot all of these things into into a larger system. I think

as you become sort of spreading your focus onto all the different like parts, you know that you need thio, too. Keep your eye on like you mentioned. There's animation. There's the overall U ex. There's the aesthetic that you're trying to achieve on a product, and, you know, I feel like there's even a lot more avenues than that. But can you still be like, uh, a designer? You know, at that point, like at what point do you spread yourself so thin that you're no longer even really able to? You know, I'm trying to ask, like, sort of a general question, because it seems like there's got to be some balance somewhere.

I just I think it depends how you define design and what a designer is like. I, in my own experience, down even with our small, smallish team at bench. I've done so few you I mock ups and other sort of tangible outwits that you consider the wheelhouse of a designer. Andi. So much more management planning and those words of activities. And I feel like I'm a more effective designer than I ever have been. Like if you go to the sort of root idea designed around planning, deciding, deciding, like how a thing should be, whether that thing is, you know, a power tool or software system or something, I think that I think that really is designed.

I don't think design is typography, right? Topography is a thing, and it's a tool in the tool kit of a designer designer really is just a systems thinker, a planner of some kind

systems thinker. That's that's kind of how my mind works is like building a system that's always how I want to approach everything like Anthony is the same way. Like, yeah, Anthony is chasing a what do you call it? It's like ah, white. It's a figurative like white caribou or something, I think when he because he's always trying to set up the most perfect like system that everything could kind of work by, Um, But the truth is that, like, as you know, we're always dealing with the different user base and a different client. At least we are. Since we work with clients, that is something that we always have to be re crafting.

And the role and responsibility has changed drastically. You know, it's not. It's very rare that someone gives you a brief that says, You know, here is my detailed specifications for this product that I'm gonna make go designed this and delivered to me, right? And that's where the system's planning comes in because you mean, you know, whatever your specialty is like the system's planning, the project management, the product minutes at the the short term, mid term and long term thinking is the only way you're going to be able to get something out the door and understand how it's gonna progress over time become better. I really like the way Adam phrase that I got into an argument accidentally on Twitter with J. Finelli from Cotton Bureau because I had said I wrote this tweet. That said,

man designers need to be better project managers and, you know, I remember that he wrote back. He's like, When is this gonna end? Right? And, you know, I understand the sentiment because, you know, I think a lot of people here. Oh, well, now you have to know this. Now you have to know that. Yeah,

like all of a sudden, every dribble post that comes out, like not only is it just fantastic looking you, I was also like, an entire animation where it, like, flips around his old stuff. So then you also have to have these takeouts animation skills as well. It's like there's always all this stuff you have to be learning. But I think there there is a bit of an extent because I don't think my personal view is that you don't have to know all these things, but you have to be able to empathize with them. You know, like if your team needs to, like, maybe the individual needs to be t t shaped, but so does the team.

You know, like a product manager needs to understand and contribute to design. A designer needs to understand it, contribute to project management or product management. It's not it's not. You just can't hand something over the fence and blame someone for something else not being done. It's a true sure can. That's how agencies have been doing it.

Yeah, that's where I think it's important to just focus on that system and focus on what you're building system for, understand where I desired outcome is, and then see where any of those particular tools fit into getting you closer to that goal. Like, you know, you can sit on drivable and get anxiety about not knowing how the enemy well. But I think something that designers aren't even thinking about a lot of the time is should I know about behavioral economics or cognitive psychology? You know, it doesn't produce any sort of like visual design output, but I think those air Justus vital understanding how the key frame animation. So it is really just understanding that system what the desired outcome is, and then figuring out what kind of lattice work of steel is you need to put together to

be productive work. That's well put, man. I think so, like, it's like you become, You're no longer just working with one photo shop document, right? You take a step out of that. And then you're sort of designing the whole picture like the whole, like feeling the hole that you know everything about that product,

the entire thing. And I think you often find a designer. If you start Thio to elevate your thinking to that level, you find a lot more kinship with, you know, business people and other folks to whether they're all trying to get to that same outcome on realize that truth. But they just have a different skill set, and you can actually bring this incredibly powerful skill set to bear to try and reach that goal. That's another thing that I like. I think designers focus so much on what they think or deliver bols. But actually, they're incredible tools for persuasion, influence as well, like an innovation. Just be an end point you deliver at the end of the day. And interface is actually this extraordinary tool for convincing other people of the right actually to go and even internally, right,

like there's this'll mean that makes its way around Twitter. Every once in a while, that goes something like a prototype is worth 1000 meetings or something, and it's kind of live. It's just this piece of paper taped up, but it's actually incredibly true. We have this unique ability to be planners, but we can also crystallize our vision, or so that any other kind of business person on dhe use it to persuade an influence other people.

Is there a way that we can get? You get these things thes interfaces without any meetings? Can we just, like, Skip? Can you answer that, Adam? That's why it's helping to achieve, is you. No,

no, no, no, you can't. But you can drastically reduce thehe mount of meetings that are necessary. So if you're if you're no active in this product, sign role and you go around everyone that's involved, you don't mean experts and stakeholders and all these other people, and you're really good at investigation, which is another design skill. I think it's crucial on you pull out all the relevant information you're gonna be able to make such a more powerful argument with visual assets than in any other person could. Whether you know, white boarding or doing whatever else on Ben sort of head off the need for 500 more meetings, crystallize that idea.

Yeah, that sounds great. Let's skip 500 meetings this year. Anthony. That's the new girl. Track it. Let's get some analytics on our meetings so we can determine, and then we'll have meetings to analyze the theater. Alice Iss of the meetings. That's so true, though. I mean, if you if all of the meetings or workshops or just a bunch of talented people in a room talking aboutthe subjectivity, I like this. Do you like this? What do we like? You know,

that doesn't really get get anywhere like, what is What is the goal of the business goals? What's you know, what's the right? What we know about the users. What you know what they want. Come with that research in hand design because it's with intent with intent, right? Because well, with knowledge and hand and having that intent because and sometimes it just feels like this guy knows photo shop, and he knows what's hip. He's a designer. Let's give him this money and he'll he'll make you know our product, you know, and he's say it's like it feels like the whole like, product designed term is new and stuff.

I think it's, you know symptomatic of that older thinking where it's just like us. It's a designer just like let him, you know, make us something that looks professional or whatever. But it is actually missing quite a few marks. I think people are sort of like That's not really good way to do it anymore. And, you know, enter the I guess, product design, a za profession. Something's been taking a lot more seriously. You know, one thing that was really inspirational to me. I was listening to the U Ex Discovery Session podcasts and they were interviewing one of our previous clients.

Peter Mur holds, you know, used to work at Adapted Path, and his new role is a product manager. And he made this brilliant connection between you know, what with a lot of the work that these product managers are doing. Is was basically what a U X strategist quote unquote was doing at the agency. Right, The strategic planning, the user research that, you know, connecting all the dots. I thought that was a really interesting way to kind of describe that. It's a little weird for us because we have project managers, but I in ah, my goal I think that fun size would be to grow. Our are both our project management and product designers and assuring those that's that kind of those kind of skill sets listens to find that for people that are listening that don't really understand the difference between like a product manager and a project manager, somebody want to take that Adam Anthony. I

mean, I not the expert at all on this kind of thing, but the way I see it is just project managers understand process and structure for moving worth forward, whether that's agile or some other system or whatever very important stuff. But it's kind of like the mechanical plumbing of a project, and I see product managers as almost more like film directors or something where they have a vision maintained in their mind. And they do everything that they need to do. Even project management, as a subset to in order to move everything toward that

vision that they have. Yeah, exactly. I feel like that's very well, said Adam. I think I feel like a project manager is just sort of like I ve them. It's sort of like they focus on the milestones you know, just making sure everything is actually good, maintaining the schedule in that sort of thing. But then a product manager is digging down into figuring out what the requirements are for product and, you know, dialoguing with everybody with designers, with stakeholders, investors with, um, people facilitating user testing and sort of making sure that steering the ship in terms of their sort of owning it, you know,

Yeah, just maintaining an overriding vision, no matter what, on understanding how to course correct when they feel like it. Speeds actually exactly long lost in somewhere.

Exactly. Um, can can can a designer be that? Can a product designer be a product manager? I think so. At the same time, I

think they're better suited than almost anybody else. It just goes back to the interfaces as a tool for persuasion and communication. Rather than deliver herbal, I think we're uniquely blessed with a mindset like a systems thinking mindset and the ability Thio materializes mindsets for other people on Dhe. I honestly think that's the right set of tools to take over that position. It goes back like I think, the classical thing that everyone learns if they go to design school is that we're communicators above anything else. So starting to think about interfaces as abstract concept of just like a junction between two people, like whether it's a client and a really good idea or business our business model on a piece of software like joy. Joining. Joining in connecting those concepts, I think, is why we would make or do you make really great product

managers? I think I think I agree. I just wonder if it can at any point completely replaced the need for a product manager because I feel like even though designers have the potential and not every designer, by the way, I don't think just if you're, you know, a good designer, I don't know that, I believe, and I could be persuaded, You know, if I'm wrong about this, but I don't know that I believe that every person who is creatively talented in the visual arts is necessarily it's not in born in them. Teoh be a great product manager, too, because, you know, some sometimes they focus on the, you know, the vertical that they're good at

making. Yeah, certainly not. I wouldn't suggest that that's the case and there's really nothing wrong, like just like an engineer who doesn't want to go into management and they just continue down. This is the sort of senior path or whatever it is, like the world absolutely needs really, really incredible. I con artists on dhe, excellent animators and all these other people. And I think if you want to maintain that craftsman route across person round, you should. It's incredibly valuable to do that. I think it is a subset of the more planning and architecture oriented people who find them find their way to design. That should take up this role of product manager.

Yeah, I agree, and I kind of like as importance like that's important stuff right to a product. It's sort of like this is somebody a product designer that has these These product management skills is the person that is taking the vision and sometimes even pivoting on a vision to sort of, you know, bring bring this thing to life in and everything. But however, I don't feel like, um, everybody who's starting a new product that a new start up really gives as much weight to the product designer or designer at all as they do, too. Like engineering or um, I don't know, someone somebody else on that I think that you're talking about. I mean, if you mean the argument you could make, it gets that as I look at a today's news,

you know, Facebook, you know, acquiring the seniors, owners of tea and relax, you know? Did you hear about that? Adam Didn't. Yeah, yeah, that not totally. Just taking everybody all those. All those acquisitions are a position for product design talent. Yeah, you're right. But not everyone and think of you know,

like Dropbox is definitely like, really looking really strongly for designers and on dhe several bigger, bigger product companies. But I think on this, when things were getting started up, it's just there's not as much consideration as our engineering. That's my opinion, or at least my experience.

I think it's true. For a couple reasons, I think. Obviously, there's a ton of, uh, poorly founded perceptions of the field of design from the sort of the start up world in engineering and business in general, looking at us and then I think we do as a profession and we do ourselves a disservice and marginalize ourselves when we, you know, fight against processes and measurement and all these are the things that are really important to businesses. It's not that we should accept them whole hog. It's that we should work with them in a line design with the overall needs of businesses and show. Actually that in a lot of ways problems I'm just another method and actually an extremely effective method for businesses to realize their objectives on once, once you position it that way. Once once everyone realizes this that that's the case, you find people getting really excited about it and wanting to explore the more I think it's just it's a little bit opaque for most folks.

Ah, yeah, and I wonder, too. I've kind of Come come to this thought, Thio. When you're doing like, just in the startup environment, like I'm talking like a small startup environment was something sort of catches fire, and they've sort of proved, you know, that they've got, you know, some place in the in the market. The users want it. Basically, Is that a better time for a designer to, you know, for for a company to really invest in design like we've proven that this is useful. Now. Let's refine the aesthetic nature and refined the user experience of this.

Really, it depends on the company, the domain, you're working, the end and how you see design. I think that's the wrong time. I think it's certainly I wouldn't object to that approach because it will definitely work. You know, a couple engineers come up with some cool prototype that's actually effective and help some people, and now we want toe to spruce things up, and that's fine. There's really nothing wrong with that. But if you take design seriously at the systems thinking level, you should have it on board right from

the beginning. Nothing. Yeah, and I agree. But I'm just sort of like putting it out there that I feel like That's the general tone of how many, many, not everyone, and definitely not people that we work with, either. They take it very seriously on Dhe. That's why they're investing in working with, you know, with us and there's other agencies to. But, um, I don't think that in general it is that that highly considered and, you know,

like what is a is a designer really worth because not not monetarily, Right? But just like considering them as like, you don't hear a lot of designers being founding members. There are certainly those products. Um, I'm just kind of pushing against what you are saying about. I mean, I am a designer. I obviously think that there's plenty of, you know, I'm just trying to play Devil's Advocate here, right? Well, it is interesting. I mean,

what you just said made me think about our clients a little bit. So I mean, our clients agree I love him to death, but there is some truth, and it maybe it's just because where we're based in Austin, Texas, in Austin, Texas has historically always had a lot of engineering engineering founded cos there's, there's lots of incubators and venture capital places they offer great mentoring technology service is even co working space. But no one here has products, right? So there is some truth to the fact that people have waited to come to us as a service provider until, you know, they did a grassroots build first, right? But I think if you look at the Bay Area,

I mean even the East Coast is in West Coast, I don't know. I think they're their cultures or much more mature and their values. I think I think I think this this part of the country were at Texas in Middle America is still still learning that still got training rules. I

see. I see what you're saying, right? Definitely. I agree with you. The popular sentiment and I think, is to consider design a resource that you engage at a phase or interface, usually at the end. You know, it's a state you just kind of like. Okay, now hold. The work is done. Yeah. Now let's do the quick design. That's exactly exactly my point, considering it a methodology to start with you at the core DNA of business,

just like you would, uh, you know, revenue model or something like that. And certainly I think it's we're a little ways off from really getting excited Point where were considered a methodology that you should start with

from the beginning and then allowing that methodology that was sort of like birthed, you know, with the product idea and the users and grow that methodology. That system that has been designed grow that with as the user's grow. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, they're husband.

And so often, so sorry. Just one last point. T your point about the, um, cranking out that that first, you know, and the pier, whatever you wanna call it, Realizing that actually, you could do that a lot more effectively with design mint methodology than just a pure engineering mindset.

Absolutely a

products I I think that I think the view is often the design is like this fickle. As I said after the fact thing that you that you paste onto it rather than Oh, this could actually be really effective way to just even verify whether this business is gonna work or not.

Yeah. I just don't see how it's possible unless you look at the whole equation like the whole team like that. You know, the the strategic thinkers, the visionaries, the engineers, that designers I mean all working together. To me, that is product design. But how hard is it to piece that team together? I mean, how hard is it to just peace? Like two engineers that work really well together, You know, that's why these companies just get bought out basically, because, like so much easier toe jackal higher than it is to go one by one down the engineers list on designers list.

You know, that's probably maybe telling of of why, why it is that way as well. Why, it's sort of, in many cases, an afterthought after, you know, Post M v p. It's Z really hard to find the right people, you know?

Yeah, that's where I think it behooves us to really, um, be diplomats about the process and don't marginalize ourselves with typically fickle designer behavior. You know, mesh mesh ourselves and be chameleons and act like business people and persuade people show them that there are better ways to achieve these outcomes and let them realize the results themselves just slipped things. And don't don't say, Oh, I'm the designer and this is how it has to go. Yeah, produce an idea or convey something and direct a project and just let the results speak for themselves. And I think most smart people will come around once they see that that outcome they're like, Oh, whoa, wait a second. This this is really interesting. I want to explore this more. That's

That's a very mature way of putting it on. A lot of designers, I don't think can put their ego aside long enough to kind of consider that

could be almost I was guilty of this in the past two years ago. It's almost one of pride separating yourself from the rest of them being like, Oh, you know, I kind of like I stand above all this and all that grows business stuff could happen. And then I'll come in with my stone tablets and tell everyone how it should be after the fact. It's just not a productive mindset. So we should be diplomats, and you take that approach.

My gosh, I think designers today just need to go through therapy to kind of adopt that kind of mentality because it's is kind of like that. Like No, no, no. Loosen my idea on the designer and the designer. You know? I'm right. I'm right. And, uh, at the same time not exactly being sure that their rights, they just sort of demand respect, right? Like we want.

Yeah, yeah. Bye. Fight by Fiat by being designers exactly. Just like just like everyone else. We have to earn people's inspect right, improve the value

of what we're doing. So, Adam, it's no, I have a question for you. I mean, we don't have, like, a stone tablet with these values defined, but two of our core values here it fun sizes, humility, um, and empathy. You know, if we're hiring someone, we I personally look for those things over the design, the exact talent for a lot of the reasons that,

like, I think, a lot of things we talked about today following one of those categories, like empathy and understanding of different fields of psychology or other roles or and humility, you know, knowing, you know, knowing how to work in a team and and accepting that, you know, it's it's where this greater purpose this user, this person not personal. But, you know, this isn't my art project. Yeah, and in reality,

man, I mean, you gotta you gotta go on a journey as a product designer to come to those decisions. It's not just that you're that good of a designer of that, you know? You know all of the right answers you have to go through, sort of. You know, you need to put yourself through that. That that as well. So, Adam, if your height like, if you're gonna hire someone today, um, you know what?

You know what? What would you say you're looking for? That's a good question. Maybe talk a little bit about skill, but you know, like, about, you know, maybe some of these other values.

It's exactly those traits that you're talking about. Humility, empathy, diplomacy, the ability to connect, like we don't actually come up with anything on our own, usually way have an incredibly symbiotic relationship with other professions. We need their raw materials in order to do something really interesting and meaningful. S O. I think people who can communicate and connect, uh, are the most viable dessert. And obviously there's a standard you have to like a person needs to have some training in class, our principles and like visual perception and all that stuff so they can produce really good you want or whatever else. But more than that, I think someone's ability to investigate and have conversations on dhe get to core anxieties and motivations. Um, it's just so much more crucial in order in order to really do good design.

Yeah, I agree. Um, yeah, it's awesome.

Yeah, it's not. It's not to dismiss, like all of those three craft skills are vitally important. But it's almost like you kind of just I don't know if it's gonna sound bad or anything, but you want assume that those things were there on Biff. They're not even kind of like you can train them up to the area that they need to be. That person has the inclination to be visual in the first place, but But it's very, very difficult to train someone to be empathic and connective and investigative.

Yeah, if those trades aren't already there. Yeah, you're like changing a person. If you're trying todo wring that out on somebody. That and

in another way too coherent, persuasive Thio, like other people, have mentioned this. Actually, I think like Bryan Singer at 37 signals I believe for media is freed. Don't know, talking about writing as like the core design ability. A lot of a lot of like, hardcore you. Why designers of bulk it. That would be like Well, you know, fuck that. But it's so true. Like a really, really good writing come piece of writing is just this This manifestation of a person who can think through systems and domains really effectively and communicate those things and translate them.

Thio. Other folks. I think that's so. I think that's like the first stepping stone being able to make really get interfaces interactions that you'll be able to connect people to software systems and databases or businesses to other businesses, or like whatever you're trying to connect. Ultimately,

I feel better after having her to say that, you know, honestly, it's something I think about all the time, like, you know what? How does How does this this? I don't know. It feels like validating to think of it that way in a way. But I think we are. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

It's not important. Just gonna say designer as connective tissue, I think is an important way to look at him

by that man. By that well, we're at a time for today. Unfortunately, we'll have to kind of cut off at this point, but, um, that was pretty awesome. Adam Teoh here you kind of talk about it gives me definitely some things to think about with with product design. And as we go forward working with our clients being humble, continuing to keep that attitude. And yeah, that's That's some good stuff, man. Definitely. Thanks for sharing. Yeah.

Thank you. Hey, Adam. How do How do our listeners find out more about bench and you personally? Where would they connect with you?

Yeah, Please make your radio to Ben Shot CEO to find out more about bench. We've gotta block going with all kinds of for the cool resources for business. People can find more about me on Twitter. I guess if you're interested at Adam J ST I don't have a site up right now. It's tremendously embarrassing, but it's kind of just gets that way. Once you're involved with one set up for a long time, you end up taking it down. Resolutions for 2015 is actually get up like a beautiful new, not necessarily portfolio, but just, you know, a point of entry Thio contacting. You

think that's good? Yeah, I'm the same way Man by my side is just like a little avatar with, like, five buttons that's like,

Have you ever noticed that that actually, most designers, especially the really great ones, either just are a little bit cheeky with her design.

Yeah, or then there's the rare people that have, like, the most incredible design you've ever seen. And then all the rest of the designers are like, Man, I'm just gonna dio a link to my dribble. Or what's that saying that Cobbler's cobbler's Children go without she? Definitely. That's you know you're designing for if you're a talented designer, right, you're designing for a lot of other people. You're not spending a ton of time designing for yourself.

I don't know. I think it holds true through a lot of different trades. Actually, like I've noticed her stylist usually have, like nice but super minimal. Whatever is easiest

to maintain. Yeah, definitely cool, man. And you said, your Twitter handle right, your Twitter handle. Everybody's sure everybody

just yes, at at Adam, Jason

Nice. And then Anthony's at Manta one. And I'm at Rick Messer and you guys can subscribe on iTunes. If you like the podcast, we'd like to hear more of it. We got some pretty interesting episodes coming up, and we thank you very much, Adam, for taking the time out today to discuss with us thes things. Man, it was great. Great hearing, hearing from me today.

No, thank you is that this one's really lovely. I love talking about this stuff, and I appreciate you giving me the time. Awesome. Okay, guys, till next time. Thanks very much. Today's episode

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