I. This episode of Hustle is brought to you by designing the best place to find creative talent. Need help of the project. Post on designing can receive free proposals from the best designers. Illustrators in animators joined the hundreds of companies and startups that have been connected with the perfect creative For their project. Go to designing dot com slash hustle and start your project today. Hey, welcome back to the hustle podcast this host Anthony Armendariz, and I'm back for another awesome conversation with a very talented designer today. I'm here with Grace and McAlpine Ah, a friend of mine and a very talented designer from the Bay Area. She is traveling back and forth between Texas, and it was actually able to come and record with me in person. Which is exciting because I don't normally get to do this. I think the last guest was, ah, damn petty.

It's good toe. Sit across from someone and talk with him. Grayson is a ah product designer formally at Ueno, and she's now currently a freelancer on her own, building her own destiny building. Being her own boss. Grayson, won't you say hello and tell us a little something about yourself.

Well, hi. And thanks for having me, Anthony. It's like we all seem to be here. Yes. So I'm currently living out in from San Francisco, technically, the East Bay living out in Emeryville. Um, but yeah, moved out there a little over a year ago to work with the winner team and currently actually am freelancing doing the whole contract. Freelance gig. I left one. No, I want to say almost two weeks ago to kind of pursue this. It's always been,

like, on the back of my mind on my heart toe, just like go with, you know, my dream for running my own gig and kind of like burning a company. Honestly. So I decided to take the dive and pursue that, um, so yeah, so I do do product design, and that has been primarily my focus, but I'm also incredibly passionate about a lot of other things, and that's like photography music. Um, I've been very, very interested in also just working with nonprofits and building community, connecting with people, creating opportunities for people to connect. So that's something I just wanted to explore further and just kind of see where I could take

that. And you're also speaking at conferences.

I am? Yeah. So my first talk was ah, Value con last year. I'm still living in Texas at the time, and it was right before my transition to one now and then I recently just spoke of squares, So Yeah,

so you got a lot going on. Um, what kinds of things do you like? Let's talk about each one of these. What kinds of things do you like to design?

I'm really, I love I'm designing for mobile. And so when I first started out as, like, understanding, like what Prague design was, and starting out on that I immediately dived into into mobile. So I love designing those experiences. Um, that would kind of like web applications as well. I really enjoy doing that. Um, and I do do like some, like, marketing design stuff. I may not be as like, you know,

gung ho about it like, Oh, my God. I can't wait to design another website, and I'll do it, and I enjoy it. But I love love more. Fool. I don't think I have an exact reason for why. Um but yeah. So

if if you had to have a reason why. Why Why would if you had to have a reason? What?

Let's think. Um, I think it's because for me, it's something that somebody consistently returns to. It's an experience, you know. And so for me, like being able to, uh, do everything that you know goes into understanding who I'm designing foreign and why and what they need and then crafting that experience and pushing it out to them and just it's very like holistic. In my opinion tonight I love that loving love, knowing that I'm contributing to helping someone and also, I don't know, it's just it's just it's so it feels personal to me. So I enjoy

them. Yeah, that's that's interesting. That mobile is also my favorite, but for a different reason. I like it because it's it forces you to think about. Well, what's the one thing this has to do? It it doesn't you usually not more complicated than like forming one worry very strong function, and you also do photography. So when you're in the office the other day, your you said, Oh, I got work to do to get some projects to work on and used photography. I actually didn't know that you did that

kind of work. I do, Yeah. So it's so interesting to me. Because, as I was telling you earlier, um, I kind of fell into design. Never knew that this would be my career. Prior to that, um, I was going to be a filmmaker. I love storytelling, loved filmmaking and photography. So that whole visual medium and so I really thought that was going to be my career. And I got very active and just developing that and experiencing all that I could. So photography was always like a hobby thing that I was doing.

And I realize, like, Dude, I'm just like passion about people. So my favorite type of like expression of that is through portraiture on some, like lifestyle photography. So I started. Take that really seriously. Good grief. I'm really about dates, but I definitely at least well, over a year ago, where I was like, you know what? This is something him really want to focus more time in and grow in and have more opportunities to pursue. So I'm all about portraiture or so well of people.

So now that you're on your own. Yeah. Is photography a part of this business vision that you have? Okay, so tell Tell us what you're doing. Yeah. I mean, what's the what's the new venture gonna be

about? Yeah. So this is something that I actually started prior to, like, transitioning to winnow, even even a little bit before, you know, I was working remotely with two other agencies, and this was something that I had, like, a vision for that I want to do with other creatives, Not necessarily designers. So basically, I started, and it's called wild and gray. Um, I started this a little while ago,

and again, like I said, put on the sidelines. And now we're just basically a collective, um uh, family of freelancers essentially. And we have different focuses. So in the past, one of my team members, like we did a lot of you work together, um, and have, you know, shot a lot with photography as well. And another guy on my team. Mom,

he's an amazing lettering artist type designer and doesn't brand. So I'm just wanted to cover a full spectrum of service is, um and people can contract us, you know, dependent on their needs. You know, they may only need video work. They own me only need photography work. We've had an opportunity where they've been able to contact us out for more than one. Um uh, skill set. So last year I had the opportunity to work on a project for Waverly Labs and there started based in New York City, and basically we were working on their Kickstarter video. Um, and that was a lot of fun. And they hired us to do that.

And I never expected that this would go massively viral and they would raise a TTE this point things like over four million in funding for their product. So it was like an incredible experience. We were so excited. And then after that contract again, too, designed their first version of their their app that would accompany their product. So that was, like, a really, really need experience. So

So I've had quite a few people in the on the show that run businesses and agencies and even freelancers, but I think you might be the first person that's been on the show that is self employed, but in a collective

model. Oh, yeah. Actually,

don't even know how that works. I mean, is there anything is if you want to share about how that works, like in the this collective you guys have, like, who does the business? Uh, you share that, Like, how do you guys? Actually,

yeah. So that's a really awesome question. And to be honest with you, look, I don't know all the answers. The reason why we chose this model to pursue this model was a bit mortgage towards, you know, ease. You know, like, for instance, I I didn't want to have to handle for the first time right off the bat, you know, operations and Busan all of that because, you know, it's a contract you already dealing with out on your own, you know,

And that's a lot of work. So being able to kind of still, you know, do something under a brand name, you know, under that umbrella and kind of create that burned value in the face of the identity. But, you know, stay contract where everybody can focus on that on their own. You know, um and currently, like, who knows, maybe two years down the road, all kind of shift Focus maybe will become more of an agency model and I'll have to start worrying about, you know,

doing with operations. And all of all that comes with running your own business in that format. But for now, like this worked really well for us and honestly, like I would I think, that I speak for the entirety of my team. Like, were very, um we love to travel and we love remote work. And we all have a background, a very strong background in freelancing, you know, and so just it kind of makes sense. And I think, um even though I have definitely valued and appreciated and probably will continue to, you know, working and House of teams are working contract remotely, Um, like, I just I love kind of calling my own shots and kind of exploring and experimenting and figure out what I'm good at and what I love to do and just going

with it. So love your outlook, because I think some people try to get it perfect, and it's never perfect, right? Like you said, like UMA, you might do this. You might make this tweet later. You might do this later, and you kind of figuring out. I think that's ah, really good approach. Because if you wait for the right time or for everything to be perfect, you're pretty much waiting forever. And a lot of people that would would have been or could be very, very good small business owners or freelancers. But but can't seem thio get there just because they can't take the

first step? Yeah,

so about that first step, I mean, I mean, I was gonna ask you if it felt scary in some way that you're back on your, uh, on your own again, but I wasn't aware that this is something that's that you were doing prior to having a job. But why don't you share a little bit about how it feels to to be in the especially the barrier to have the stability of a job and and now be, um, solo?

Yeah, it's obviously terrifying, but I love it. And I mean that, you know, um, I know we talked about this earlier, like I've never known what I'm doing ever. But it's about starting, you know, it doesn't like you can't the associate for people who are uncertain or I've never done this before, you're gonna fear you're gonna feel fear. You're gonna feel uncertainty. You're gonna wonder, gonna second guess yourself. But that's that will continue to hold you back like you just have to go. You just jump and you learn along the way.

And if you're an honest person, you stay transparent. You stay productive. You stay constructive. You stay curious like you meet people. They support you. They give you insights and you learn along the way. Like that's my entire experience. You know, it's just think along the way and being very, very aggressive about my learning, you know, and where it can take me.

So in terms of learning and you're relatively young designer, I mean, I don't know if you want to, but if you do want to on a sure with people how long you've been a designer for?

Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I didn't get serious about like what I do now, which is I would probably identify that just for the sake of having away well as product design. Until about two years ago. Prior to that, um, I was just kind of exploring, like, more like the graphic design route you know, illustrating and brand kind of stuff. And honestly, I was determined to be good at it. But sometimes it's not enough to be good at something. If you don't love it.

Why Why are you spending that time investing that time? Um and so I basically, uh I mean, think offer the Internet. I was just reading a lot of stuff. Um, and talking to people on Twitter like Twitter is amazing. It's the best platform I've ever been on for engaging in connecting with people who know more than you. D'oh! And so, just having these conversations, I realize there's this thing called product design, which for me, it just meant people oriented. And so I realized that's what I want to. I want to focus on people.

I wanna focus on experiences. Um, and basically, I just plunged right into that. Um, and of course, like I had to focus also, unlike the visual design aspect, not just, you know, the process of, like, you know, figure out research methodologies and, um, you know,

interviewing and user testing all that stuff, but just like visual design, But anything that I wanted to know, I was gonna figure out through a lot of tar on air. A lot of error, you know, But you brace it. And so I've just been doing that for the past couple of years and just you just make shit, dude, you just you grab any opportunity that you can tow, learn, and it doesn't matter whether it's perfect or not. You get inside, you get feedback. You keep making you get better, and you never stop.

Yeah. Then the never stopped part is the part that, um, that I'm scared of the most. And thank you for sharing that by by the way, before I get into me, let me say a few things about you. So, um, I know that durable isn't everything, and I don't really judge judge people by what I see under what I see on drool. Because I know there's a big delta between, like, what someone can show and can't show is you know, a lot of things that we work on is his owners. We we can't talk about much less show and you know it's a dribble ends up being a place where we post the things we we can show where things were working on. But for someone so new to the digital,

you know, product design field, I feel like, Yeah, like your explanation make a lot of sense because of my reaction was appreciate. Like there's some, like, really skill here. Um, you know, it's hard. It's always hard for my position with young designers or, you know, people that air beginners to, um, experience design because it's really hard to gauge,

like what they're really good at. You know, some people might come in with more general skills some very specifically years. You like, I think the most noticeable thing is a visual design. Yeah. So my question my question to you is what? In which order did you start to learn these skills? Like if you look at visual design, experience, design, information, architecture and all that kind of stuff and then research like how? How is that? How did what's the order in which you've been learning those skills? And are you focusing on on all of them or or ah, Subsection?

Yeah, that's a good question. Eso in terms of how I started out, um, actually was one of those people who was afraid to start And that's because I thought, Well, I don't know what I'm doing. You know, I'm I'm young. And so I would feel that I didn't focus on visual design at first. I didn't focus on the actual craft, right? I realized that like, Well, I really am intrigued by, um, like psychology and behavioral economics and research and crafting experiences.

And it was very, very people oriented. And very and so Look, I just read a lot and have conversations with people. Um, And then I realized, you know, application. You know, especially if I wanted to get, you know, hired. Frankly, um, it helps to have a very polished craft. So that's when that's when I got serious about product design.

And that's when I focused on not just understanding what that all entails, but being able to deliver and execute on an actual craft. And so I began, like, literally didn't know I was doing I I started in September, and I I don't suggest this. I do believe in self care imbalance, and I'm need to like, you know, practice my own words, but I literally burn myself, was not sleeping much, and in four months figured out how to de visual design well enough to get hired by the first agency. I had no idea what I was doing prior, but I mean it like it's dedication. Like I had to get a job and I had to focus on my craft,

my visual craft. Not just having, like, head knowledge about, you know, experience, design information, architect, her research processes and everything. Like it was about the craft and how I could apply what I learned to that. And use that as a tool, son, you know, So, yeah, um, I don't know where the second part of your question

Oh, it doesn't It doesn't even matter. What you're saying is interesting about what does it take to get there first job. And I think it's it's It's very common that I think that people, some especially designed that first jobs, they're usually jobs in which, you know a hiring manager can look, it's something very tangible and say Okay, yeah, you have skill in that area. And then it seems like as you know, someone becomes more senior in their in their career than people start looking at the other things like Well, how How well can they were? Read the room, you know, or convert, you know,

business goals and user goals in tow ideas. And it's interesting because we have some beginner designers on our team that are that had a really hard time finding their first jobs. We saw the craft, but now they're It's interesting watching them like show the senior designers howto how to actually take those ideas about research in psychology and actually create Deliver Bols that inspire a client. And teams actually do better design work. And it's it's really interesting when you can have those cultures of collaboration. Anyway, this this I know, Um so, uh, as a as a someone that's relatively new to the design field. What's water would have been some of your biggest challenges, another than getting that first job?

Well, getting my first time was a child. You know, I think finding honestly finding support and mentorship. I was just I was on my own, and I think that's why I'm so passionate about, you know, young people under entering the industry who especially like when not just comes to craft but working your way around people and under saying understanding people in that whole dynamic, right? Like, um, I just felt a little bit isolated. And, of course, that's kind of comes with freelancing and, you know, working remotely with teams.

Um, so I think some of my challenges were I didn't I didn't have anyone to really turn to at first. If at least that's how I felt in terms of like, you know, a Grayson like this Is these air the specific things that you need to focus on to improve? Mostly like your visual craft. You know, like very specific things. Um, but like, honestly, like you just supplement that with a shit ton of YouTube tutorials, and you find courses online in skill share and tree house. And And if you stay cool and friendly and riel, people are like, happy to be your friends.

And always, always find someone who's smarter than you and acknowledge that they're smarter than you, cause you don't have your shit figured out, and that's okay. And I think you have to be willing to be honest with yourself about that and, you know, be honest about that with others. You know, um, it's really awesome how people are excited to help you, you know, and to help others in the industry. You know, it should it should be supportive. It should be that collaborative and, you know, yeah,

it should be. And there's course. Some people that you know are very talented, that never, like, leave their own house or never speak, never share anything. And they just kind of working complete isolation, you know? And I guess you know that works for some people, but it doesn't work for everyone, and it definitely makes it hard for yeah, young designers or even old fogeys like me, like learn new skills and think it were not. If we don't have, ah, ways to support each other,

we don't necessarily have to be in the same room. But I agree that, like having a support system is is really important. Having having a good mentor is critically important and in one on one time, and stuff like that is also really important. It's also really hard to learn how to do, um, wood in your in your in your mind what's the sort of ideal environment for a young designer to grow? And what is that collaboration? What is that mentorship look like? Like if you're if you're speaking to all the agency owners out there, like what? What are some tips that you could give them to enhance the way that they're there? People are supported and

well, I think that's Ah, that's a bit of a difficult question to answer. For this reason, it's that not all agencies are equipped to have the resource is or the investment to actually mentor someone who who's very new and very young. And so you know, when people like unless they're specifically hiring, like for an internship with a set of expectations for what that looks like. Um, when you honk when you excuse me when you hire a junior designer, um, they're coming clean, consistent support and that kind of constant checking in and guidance. And so, um, I feel that if you really, really care about this,

if you care about, you know, because there are a lot of talented young people out there, correct, you know, like they've got the skill set, they've got the potential being able to not just recognize that, and two to value that, but also being willing to set aside, like figure out a plan for what works within your company Agency alum And listening honestly, like listen to what they need. You know, what are their struggles? And then, of course, like,

how does that align with, um, your business and your goals and like, creating kind of like a plan, honestly, that, you know, can benefit both and hopefully, like, accelerate their growth, you know, So you know, that answers your question. It's a hard question to answer because I didn't have that with the 1st 2 agencies that I worked with, Um, and they were all very the most part much more senior than I was and didn't know how to. Um really just ah, listen,

I think on that could be wrong, But I think the companies that I've seen that seemed to be the best at having the really, really true programs for mentorship and training. You seem to be the ones that have been around long enough to learn the lessons like a lot of the young companies, including fun size a minute, like, you know, Natalie and I are only five, not even five years into this, you know, we were just designers and all of a sudden we are having to learn how to run a studio. And so, um, we're we don't know the answers to this stuff, too. We're trying to figure it out, but,

you know, I will admit that, Um, even though we have a very strong culture of collaboration, it's still really hard. It's still really hard to make sure that we're doing all these things right, because I think especially when everyone on the team is like like a freaking like go getter, right? It's very easy to like higher, higher someone and accidentally forget toe like, not work with them on a regular basis to grow like. And then and then time flies, you know, And you just don't even realize it in, like, six months has gone by or something like that.

And you realize, Oh, man, like only did like I could have done way more mentoring. You know, it's hard, but yeah, I think it's really

important. Yeah, I think you definitely have a point, I think far more established companies, and often I think that, like those the product companies see, no seemed to focus a bit more on on, you know, Uh, just creating like programs for for people, you know, for the younger, younger designers to two grown to develop and then, you know, grow into, like, you know,

more mid levels, like senior positions in their company. But, um, yeah, I don't I mean, like, you guys air one of the first agencies that I know that cares about, like, actually an actual mentorship program like they're actively I'm sure there are many out there, but you're the one that comes to mind like Oh, yeah, fun size like you guys were figuring this out. It's, ah, a different

line of work. There's a few, you know, there's a couple or when there's a lot of reasons, but there's really two reasons, and they're both very different one. Um, for me personally, if I look back at my entire 17 year career being a designer, um and I did have to do that one time like I was getting, you know, I was I was becoming a CEO, and I was struggling with the fact that I was going a little longer making. And so I was reflecting on the 17 years and went back to every job in every instance and and I looked for common threats, and I realized that almost all the time I had someone training very closely underneath me, you know, like it might have been my brother or or Natalie And I realize,

like, I'm not really doing like I really was not doing all of the design work that I thought I was doing. I was like, I was identifying a certain skill and another designer and using that skill to my own advantage to pair with with mine and I really, you know, I didn't really realize this, but now I realize after looking back, I've never been a great like visual designer. I thought I was, But I'm really not, You know, it's it's in in Ah, so I think that's just a common threat. Like, I've always just like training people, And,

uh, you know, when I when I'm retiring, the thing that I want to believe that I trained a lot of great designers. By the time that I'm 70 years old, I'm not gonna care about any of this stupid like mobile app, sir. Pieces of some room designing today I'm gonna care about the people that you know I kind of wanna play it forward. And then the other thing is business wise to I mean, uh, we're not, you know, we're not some big company, that it has the luxury of just hiring senior people. And then if even if you could, like,

would you really want to everyone to be the same like if everyone was had the same amount of background came, all came from design school and and all were great, like visual designers. And, you know, all were, you know, white men. And, you know, you would just there wouldn't really be any interesting work. So we like to have diversity and gender age, background training, job skills, all that sort of stuff. It took us a while to get there,

but it took us a while to get to a point where we could equally value like design research and visual design. But now we compare those two people together and they have mirror skills. That's why we do it. And we enter anonymously in marketing, you know, deny that the more balanced your team is in senior and beginner designers, the easier it is for a company to make their financial margins.

So, yeah, you know, like, kind of going back to what you were just a little bit earlier, like a 100% resonate with, You know how you're saying? Like, um kind of like stepping away from the design, you know, processing your arm or in invested and actually enjoy, like, training people. I definitely see. I can see my own career kind of playing in that direction as well. Like at the end of the day, what I worked on,

what clients I worked on whether, like, you know, I'll be proud of the work that I did like. That won't matter so much to me as it will the people you know that I got an opportunity to connect with, to work with, to bring together like I'm just That's what I care about. And I and I realized that, um, just in past several months that I seem to be very driven in that direction. And though I think it's incredibly important again, you know, especially if you're you know, you know, say you're like in a management position, you know,

you want to understand the craft, you wanna be able to understand the people that you're leaving, Like what they're doing. But, like, at the end of the day, like I care about the people I want to, you know, figure out ways like bring people to work together and figure out ways where they can collaborate better and figure out those systems and those processes like I care about that. That's like So I just was so passionate

about. I wish that, um when I first went on my own freelancing, I was lucky enough to have a group of people that I could have done a collective model like you, cause I think, um, I don't regret it, but I think I had to learn a bunch of different things that were very different in order to survive freelancing. And if I had I had, like, a collaborative system like that well, thought out. I mean, it could have provided growth opportunities for me and maybe allow me to focus on a little bit more of neuro scope. But

yeah, I think why? I'm excited about, um, wild and Grace because it gives me that opportunity. Like you learn from experience, right? Like I can read all of the medium post I want on, like team management and collaboration and whatever, but, like, at the end of the day, get your hands dirty, And so I think that's why I'm, like, so excited. Like to not know entirely what I'm doing.

But to be excited and to be willing to fall, you know, fail and grow and have support. And also just the drive in the world t just learn, you know, and learn how to work with people and learn to understand people better, um, and learn how to provide the them the opportunities that they're seeking, you know, for their own life.

So, yeah, I mean, you got a lot of great things going on in a really great head on her shoulders. And I love the way that you think about these things. And I'm glad that you're, um, taking time out of your scheduled to go and talk to people at at, you know, events and conferences and stuff like that. Um, I didn't really start doing that until maybe maybe three years ago, and even that, like, it's still very outside of my comfort zone. I could do this like I can talk from a microphone, but then in front of people.

Oh, man, that's so like, I don't think I'll ever get used to that. I mean, do you feel like a natural speaker?

Absolutely not. D'oh! When I spoke at value gone Complete confession here here's here's here's what end of doing. Dude, I say yes to stuff I'm absolutely not qualified for or have zero experience in, Um And so public speaking is not one of those things that I ever thought I would be doing ever in my life. I'm shy. I'm an introvert. I love people, but, like, one on ones or just not like in the spotlight kind of thing, right? So I almost passed out what you're up to the stage of the ballot count. I like my vision got super blurry, and my heart rate was like insane. But then after that,

like after like, honestly, the trauma that I was like, Oh, I could do this again, you know? And then square is definitely a little bit more a little more comfortable, but like still like, you know, like my second time in my life speaking, you know, you just you just say yes. I just say yes. I just said yes to another invitation to speak at a conference. Do

I feel today, right? Like right before we started recording

A couple of days? Probably. Yeah. So it's a creative works conference that's hanging about in Memphis, and so, like, you just take it, You just do it. You know, you don't have to feel prepared. You never really fully are. You know? So

you know, if standing up in front of a crowd isn't hard enough, I don't know. I don't know if this comes natural to either, but creating a presentation deck is I find also very challenging on. Every time I do, it ends up being like 300 slides, and and then I had to read off of him. You know, like I don't know how people do it where they just have, like, one slide. And then I just, like, talk on, you know, like I don't know, like, it's it feels e. I think it stresses me out when I do that, because I feel like I have to be in sync with this

lot. I don't know. No, I totally understand. You like, honestly, I don't have a very fine tuned process for, like my creating, like the the slides and, like, you know, having my talk, perhaps, and everything. I'm just learning as they go. But for me, I realized,

like I cannot figure out how, like, how much time actually takes investing, creating slides on Dude, I keep them simple. A awfully, because I know it like I'm just eating up more time. Like for value content for squares like I had months for squares and I was still putting my my duck together like the night before, and I told myself I wouldn't do that. But I think I was like, you know, as I continue do this more frequently, I guys some I'll figure out what works, but yeah, slides it slides of heart. Yeah, you know, there

was one time Danielle Moser, designer. It's on my team. She before she transitioned and being a designer, she was one of our first employees, and she was a project manager, and her and I did a presentation at ah, the digital, um, project management summit. We had we had we had practices. We knew it. But what happened the day of when we, like, launched the presentation at the in the room. It was the wrong version. Oh,

way, Ed. Luckily, we had practiced it enough That we, you know, like, um got over that bm That's that's an art in itself. Yeah. So, um, let's talk a little bit about some of the things that you talk about. Um, I think, you know, you told me earlier that the topic for your squares talk was called was by the people for the

people or something like that. I'm designing for real life

doesn't end in real life. So what I mean with you know, you don't have to give us the whole thing, But what is this talk about?

Yeah, like the gist of it was, I decided to do something less technical and just kind of focused on lessons learned through my my my little experience in design and just working with, at that point, a couple different teams. Plus, you know, any contractor clients and then I just focused on what I've learned about designing actually four people. So I shared basically Ah, how much I value you know, the research process and also what it means. I think like, you know, you hear the the terminology, like users tossed around fairly frequently, right? And for me,

like I understand it, That's kind of like the lingo that we use, you know, intact. But just keeping in mind the humanity of the people that were designing for And so I tend to like to say people like I don't just think of the vote users, you know, where you kind of put them in this category where, like, you know, it's just data, you know, Um and so for me, like again, I get it like I see user sometimes. But just at the heart of it, the corporate like,

what does it mean to have a human centric approach to design? What does it mean to keep you know, users or people as the North Star? You know, you're just remembering like I'm designing for human. And then then also like, I I'm really interested in fascinated by the topic of empathy. And it's something that we hear very frequently, obviously intact, and it's obviously a buzzword. And maybe it's a little bit of a cliche thing, like you say empathy, and people were like, Oh, yeah, I know that is,

But, um I've been exploring this concept of emotional empathy versus cognitive empathy and, like, the differences and how to, like, use both or use honestly, focusing on Congress mentally. So, um, the quick version is emotional empathy, emotional transference. You know, you're in distress, you're in pain. You ii see that, especially as identified as an impact.

Um, I feel what you're feeling and you know so often we're told, you know, you should be in the and people shoes to understand what they're going through to be able to really, truly relate. And, um, I understand where the arguments coming from, and I think there's an appropriate time and place for that. Um, but also realizing that especially for people who are and paths or people who tend to take on the burden of someone else's emotions, you know that's leads to burn. Now it's an exhausting process. And maybe it may not always be the best approach to understanding where someone's coming from, especially if you're using it as a tool for research. And so,

um, I first heard of cognitive empathy through ah, Indy Young, who actually lives out the, uh, San Francisco and I started doing just a lot of research like there's various resource is on this but using cognitive empathy as a tool for research and understanding that even though emotional empathy is a great thing in some aspects, being able to empathize and to feel someone you as, uh, actually I've heard Helen Trans say that's what I think she might have possibly taken it from someone

else. She's great.

She's amazing. I love Helen. You basically don't have to drown to save someone who's drowning. But you don't have to feel what that's like, you know, to save someone. And that's such a valid point. It makes so much sense to me, um, and so I just kind of explore. But cognitive empathy is, and that's that's sort of a process where you do not have to feel, you know, per se what someone else is feeling to truly understand. You can figure out a way to kind of get to the heart of who they are through, like a very simple step, and that's listening on.

The really neat thing about listening is that it's listening without ego, without bias, it's it's it's listening without thinking that you have to interject your opinion. Your thoughts are like to prove something. That is, if you think about it like so frequently when we are in conversation, Um, and someone's like sharing their thoughts were not always, like, actually, like taking it in without bias, sickly what we we want. I, like project our values, you know, interrupt them and prove a point.

Or just like comment, you know. And so the beautiful thing about cognitive empathy is that it takes not doing that like shut up and understand that this person has expectations, expectations, biases, opinions, feelings and taking all of that, and so that you can aggregate all of that. Incites later, Um, and kind of, uh, approach it, you know where I guess I just It's more of an intellectual approach, honestly and again, The idea is you don't have to emotionally feel to understand into care.

And then I, you know, kind of lead that into compassion. There's a guy named Paul Bloom. He's a cognitive scientist on psychologist belief from Yale, and he's actually ah says in quotes against empathy, just for the reasons I've explained before, It's a very exhausting exercise, you know, feeling what other people are feeling. And so he he translates that into, like, How do we understand compassion? You know, how can we use compassion as a tool or a za method for Ruli gaining the deeper insights that we need, especially with research when we're designing for people?

And so like, I love the idea of compassion because it's it's unconditional in a way, you know, it's it's real. Like I look at you, Anthony, and I don't I I see you for who you are, and I don't have the kind of I see your inherent worth. Basically, I see your value and that matters. And I can implement that to gain whatever insists I need. And I really thought it was really interesting because Paul Bloom in one of his articles, he wrote about cognitive empathy, kind of being cold blooded. And I understand where he's coming from that because if you're using it simply as a tool to like, almost this is like,

you know, I don't know if there's a proper way to say this, but like manipulate someone in a good way, you know, to gain, you know, insights and data. You know, um, that it seems a little, like, manipulative, like I get that perspective. And so, hey, he has a good argument.

I would recommend people like just dissolve into that more. But, um, like I love the idea of compassion, because again, it's about recognizing someone's inherent worth in their value and seeing them for who they truly are and being able to just set aside your own biases. Your own opinions, um, and embrace embrace them because people are so different. It really takes understanding people's like backgrounds. And the, you know, advocating for diversity like this is kind of where that comes into play, you know, and being open open to that and just understanding that people are people. And we all have a commonality of wanting to be valued,

to be appreciated. We need to advocate for more vulnerability and transparency, you know, and making people feel that they can do that. You know, that's the cool thing about cognitive empathy. It's that you can make someone feel safe to share, and it doesn't have to be a cold footed tactic. It's just understanding that that's what we want. You know, deep down inside, we want to be able to share our lives and be open and vulnerable. Know that someone carries and is listening. We don't necessarily need you to feel or feeling. We just want you to be there. And so I think that's it's,

you know, it's a great opportunity, you know, to kind of practice that. So, you know

Yeah, that's, um that's interesting. That's that gives me some things toe. I think that I can learn. I mean, I've never honestly heard the term cognitive, and I'm sorry. Cognitive What?

Cognitive empathy. Yeah,

that's I'm gonna check that out, but I But I think that I might kind of already be doing that without really thinking about it. Like because I'm so used to running a business and working with clients. I don't just look at the people that are using the products I'm designing. I also have to understand the client. And so I do these, like client personas, like either in my own head or in my no matter whatever, because sometimes, like in another layer of this and back to the fact that we're working with people, sometimes the people that hire us just want their boss to stop screaming at them and like being like giving them this one design thing, even if it's something that you don't like. If you give that person that thing there, Boss might stop screaming at them and um or or or maybe ah ah will help them in some, some way other than actually helping the person that would be using the tool. I like to look at all those things, like all the people that are around the work,

you know, because it's not always, it's It's mostly about designing good products. I think otherwise, I want to do this. But if you know you and I are both kind of the same, I think we think about the people that we're working with, and I want to be able to um no, that I help solve their problem in their organization or in their culture, not just design a great piece of software. I think about

that kind of yeah, absolutely. And I think people should, you know, you know, it's not just your team, but who you're working with and understand the context of where they're coming from, You know, that's so important. It's

so good. I mean, don't some a side note But I think the this openness is really important because designers are, I mean, not all, not all of us. But, um, some of us tend to be sensitive, and it's our work. It's very personal, right? Like it's hard for it to not be personal. Sometimes you know, it's we've spent all this time working on this thing, and and when people don't react to it well or, like,

heavily criticize it or quite blatantly say, like, I just don't like that it it hurts sometimes, you know. But I think you can ask questions or have conversations that help get to the bottom of that like we're working with a big Bay Area client and, um was with one of our young designers, Uh, this desire, say, like, I don't think the client likes me or any of the work that I'm doing. I was like, Why would you know, what would you think? That was all they keep saying The stuff I'm like, Well,

maybe you just haven't asked the right question yet like maybe maybe have you asked the question like, should I like, How much should I be pushing to really, really radicalize that changing paradigm paradigm shift here versus just do quick, quick work that you contest And it turns out that the answer was we really want you to push on this thing over here, but not on this one, you know, And And I think once he this designer realized that you could ask some of these questions, it became a tool for him to start asking those things earlier on so that he could build that connection with client provide a service to that client provided, you know, like, provide solutions that are going to meet the needs the best. And and I think, you know, I don't know. I don't know why I mentioned that. I think it just I guess I was trying to talk about openness and just asking those kinds of those questions.

No, I I think I understand you're coming from and the importance of being able to feel that you can step up and say, Hey, you know, and ask a clarifying question, t gain the insights in the directions that you need. Like I remember working with a client, and it was so interesting to me. Um, we were working with the client and There's a few people on the project, and the client kept saying something like, We don't like this. We don't like this. And please stop doing this. And for some reason, it just wasn't translating in each generation of work that would present to them like it was still appearing. And so,

um, there is a moment where I was talking with one of the, uh, people on the project we're working with from the client side, and we were kind of just going over their designs. And we came to that section where again they were like, We don't like this, um and and so I realized I was like, You know what? What? Has anybody asked why? It's a really simple question. Why? And so, um, I mean,

I phrased it a bit more specifically, but I later found out that they simply felt that they had used this type of, um design and their prior branding, and it fell outdated, and they didn't understand why we kept using because the truth was was that that what what we were doing was not necessarily outdated, but it felt dated for them. And it wasn't translating that we were understanding where they were coming from. We never asked why. So I just think it's really important to never be afraid to ask questions. You know what you have to lose. You know, it doesn't make you look ignorant. It shows that you care that you're intentional. You know,

primary job is a designer

to ask, I guess. My favorite question. Dude, Why?

Awesome. Um, so what's ah, what's next for you? I mean, where do you hope to Ah, what do you hope to accomplish? Yes, you're

well, eso basically the next couple of months, I'm gonna be probably working for the most part, Like in terms of, like, living situation out in San Francisco. Still really, honestly. Just focusing on building my brand, um, learning how to build a team, learning how to manage that. Figuring out what, you know, figuring out just a little more of the detail of the model that we're pursuing. Um, and just getting getting our work out there. Um, yeah, that's awesome.

Yeah, well, thanks for taking time. Um, we don't even get to tell the audience about how long it took for us to get a real recording going on. Um It's a funny story. You'll have to ask Grayson about what happened the last time we tried to record. Um, how how can people

find you? Yeah, like your best bet is probably to tweet at me. I love Twitter. It's my friend. So you can find me at Grayson Sofia, and that's Grayson with the E and Sofia with an F same on Instagram. If you want to see some of the stuff that I post and kind of getting a peek into my life through into stories, so yeah, yeah,

awesome. Thanks for tuning in to the podcast. We'll see you next time hustles made by Fun Size, a digital design agency that works with inspiring product teams around the world. Learn more about us at fun size dot c e o The season of hustles brought to you by design the best place to find creative talent and receive free proposals for your project, go to designing dot com slash hustle and get started today. If you're a designer and you'd like to join,