way. Welcome back to the hustle podcast today. I'm here with a new friend of mine, Brian Wilson. Ryan actually came to our office, and we're recording a person, which is kind of cool.

It has been a long time since we've done that. Ryan is a Prague designer at Alaska Airlines. He's based in Seattle, Washington. He's on the day of Travel Team, which he'll talk a little bit more about. It was previously a Coast Guard study philosophy was a greenskeeper, was an arborist study to be a therapist and was musician, or is a musician. He's all about being a forever student, And I hope we can have a really cool conversation about what that means. Hey, Ryan. What's up,

man? Doing well, How are you?

I'm doing good. Except for this hot room we're in right now.

Oh, yeah, I could do without that. I don't know. I, uh I'm really liking Texas right now. That's all I got to say. Well,

you're a Texas boy. You're from.

So I was born in Dallas and then, uh, kind of moved all over East Texas. But I like to consider myself being raised in Houston. That's kind of where I It's probably the best part of my childhood. Um and so I'm really glad to be back. It's been a blast so far, and it's it's an honor to be here. Really?

Well, it's It's great. I'm glad you found some time to visit Austin. There's a lot of cool things going on here, and I'm glad you're able to make it down down here. Yeah, So why don't you tell us a little about yourself, like Ryan, the designer. Tell us about your role at Alaska and what you've done in the past leading

up to that. Okay, Yes. So right now I'm a product standard Alaska, as you mentioned, and I work on the day of travel team and what that involves really is kind of. We work on all the digital touchpoints that our guests interact with within their day of travel. So that includes mobile APS kiosks, exit screens and some pieces of the dot com website. Before this, I worked at a few startups. I also worked at a creative agency and truth be told, like I've done many different jobs. But it is all led up to this point where I'm I am now, and it's been a blast this far.

We were talking last night about service design and how working for an airline is like the perfect sort of pot for that all these things to come together because it it's like it's a whole It's an entire experience, Yeah, digital physical with big brands like that people have emotions towards. And did you intentionally seek out this job in Alaska to work on those kinds of problems, or did you just kind of stumbled into it and realize how awesome that opportunity is

this second? So, yeah, I kind of wanna reach out to me. And I was like, Oh, yes, I would love to meet with the team and the leadership there. And you know one thing after the next Here I am. And ah, it's I'm really grateful to be where I'm at right now because, like you mentioned, the problems that we're working on are quite complex. So it makes him a lot of fun. And it just seemed like, you know, dropping the hat like I just got lucky.

Yeah, it is pretty cool, I think I mean, just just being totally candid, like If this fun sized thing never works out, I'll probably seek out a challenge like that with a similar type of company, someone with a really, really big problem that extends across digital and physical and everything. All that. It seems like an amazing thing. And it's gonna cool to be able to do that in a place like Seattle to about.

Yeah. I mean, Seattle is a great city. Um, it's really growing at a fast pace right now. And Alaska's, really, I mean, it's a homegrown airline, right? Like it has a great reputation in the community and we kind of have the reputation of being a family. And with that, you know, in any time I tell someone like, Hey, I work it, You know,

I'm a designer. Alaska Airlines like, Oh, I love Alaska, you know, they really take care of their people. And, uh, they really you know, I really love flying them. And so that's kind of what I have felt working there. Um, I feel like a part of a family and that I mean, it's really hard. Thio compete with that. So why do people love Alaska Airlines?

I think it's because Well, we we put a lot of effort into caring about our guests, and I mean even more so recently where we're really kind of. We're proactive in trying to understand how our guests think, how they what are their attitudes, how do they behave? And I mean, ultimately, as an airline, we fly people from point A to point B, and we want to be the greatest at that. And so how do we do that and run a business at the same time? But I think the guests feel that I think they feel that we care for them and that we care not on Lee just to run a business. But we want them to have a good time when they're

flying. It's also, I mean, my first experience flying Alaska was when I was actually interviewing for a job in Seattle, A good buddy of mine. The guy was talking about last night, I think, was running, running an agency called Blue Flavor, and I was considering moving there, and I remember this like, I'll never forget this. I took off from Seattle really early in the morning, really early, that connected in Portland and by the time that we were taking off in Portland, the sun was coming up and I saw the mountains and wow, you know,

like, I don't remember which mountains like the thief, the awesome ones, right? Yeah. And then very shortly, it was the first time I ever flew in Alaska. And very shortly after someone comes by and look at the minions like Starbucks coffee craft beer.

Like, what is going to get better than that?

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, we want to keep that too. Okay. So Ah, a few questions for you. Last airlines. How old is the design organization there?

Well, that's a good question, because, I mean, I've been there almost a year. I'm not too familiar with the age of the design or GE. I know that it has been scaled within the last year, and our director has done a fantastic job like bringing in some great talent when she's really been spearheading for us to be empathetic. So when when I talk about like as as an organization, we care about what our guests thinking and feel. She's been a big part of that, which is really kind of teaching us to speak for the guests in every meeting that we're in right and for just talking to product for touching, talking engineering. It's really kind of being an advocate for the guests at the basic level. And with that we gotta find out what it is they're feeling and what they are thinking. So she's really done a great job, and it's kind of spearheading the research program at Alaska.

And, um, now, So now we have a team of researchers that are dedicated to really understanding our guests and, uh, how we can do best by

them. It's awesome. So you've been there for a year? What can you tell us about what you're working on? I mean, I know you can't divulging secrets or talk about anything specifics, but paint a picture of what your life there is, like, what kinds of things are you or are you working on?

So right now we are. We're kind of looking at, well, the day of travel experience holistically. So in my mind, I think like, well, we have all these digital products, but in essence, you know, we provide a service to our guest. And so how do these digital products support that service. Essentially. So we're We've been doing a ton of research on this last year, and with that comes like, Well, what?

You know what? How does that inform strategy? Moving forward. And so I think for me, like we really care to tackle the mobile labs. Like, how can we do a better job in being Maur contextually relevant with our abs and how we could be proactive and servicing information to our guests and instead of having them tryingto find it to seek it out, right? I mean, that encompasses a lot. I mean, that means us partnering with the ops team, the customer experience team. And so, essentially, we have this huge space,

this problem space, and we we all have to communicate, right. We all have to kind of be on the same page. Is like, we want to be consistent. We want our guest to have that consistent experience. So it's really looking at the digital ecosystem that we kind of designed for. And then also, how does that How do we partner with the airport and what goes on at the airport?

Right. Okay, So day of travel, I assume like in my dinosaur brain. That means like you wake up in the morning and it's it's probably all the things associated with what you're about to do, like a reminder of your flight is boarding in this time or hey, like there's a delay and that's a lot of that's probably digital, right? But there's probably also analog parts of that day of travel experience like let's say crap me from wrong. But I would assume that that day of travel means, Oh, your flights canceled. Please call us like because that's part of that. Exactly. So how as a designer on things like that, things that are in the physical light and then that's not physical, it's customer service.

How are you able to affect how the personally, the phone, like, thinks about that day of travel? Like like, what is that like?

I don't know. Well, you nailed it like we have to take into account and really kind of survey what it is that happens when we have cancellations when we have delays when we have diversions, and how do we communicate best to the guest when those scenarios happen? So what travel is, you know, I mean, it's I mean, there are You have expectations from the start, but within that, you know, like, hey, it could go wrong, you know? And how will the airline respond when things don't go according to plan? You know,

we're trying to take into account all these scenarios that the guests can go through, and that's that's quite a large problem space, right? So that involves multiple teams across the airline. Like, how do we we got to communicate with them because you have a lot of legacy technology that plays a role in how we respond to these events. So I would say, like most part as a designer, were work kind of forward thinking, and we're always trying. So we're trying to map out the experience at every level and then at every scenario, and it takes a lot of time. But ultimately once were kind of have, ah, blueprint of how all of this works. And what are the special case scenarios? Then we can really start thinking, Well, how do we communicate to our guests when these things

happen also, I mean, we don't have enough time to even talk about all this. We'll have to continue over a happy hour. But this is just so awesome right to me, because someone that flies a lot, you know, I have deep feelings about these things. When I fly a certain airline, it's it's, Ah, both digital physical and that everything right. A couple questions for you, though. Okay, when does Day of Travel end like, What's the what is the Where is the end of that journey that your team focus

on? So it's usually at the destination airport, right? So if you were to think of it 24 hours prior to check in and then to wants the guest to rise at their at the destination, I mean, there's a lot that I mean, that's kind of like, I guess, surface level, way to look at it. But, you know, as designers were thinking like, Well, what about the return journey, right? Like we're looking at the departing trip and the return trip.

And then what is that? You know, what does that look like? And yes. Oh, really? It's kind of it, actually, Really. Compass is a lot, and that's what we're also trying to nail down is this is the this is kind of the scope, but, you know, there's a lot that can go on in that. And is that even the right way to slice and dice it? Right? But the I mean, these are These are things that a lot of great people are working on and really trying to understand.

Awesome. All right, another question you could just say no to anything is if you don't answer him. Okay, Sounds good. But I just have, you know that you know what is success look like to you guys? Is it taking a lot of time in doing something really big and then saying, Hey, this is it's done. Where is it? Like incremental in constant improvement. Like, how do you measure the success of the things that you

that you design? That's a great question. So I mean, we operate in an incremental fashion, right? So we're always trying to improve that mean? That's one reason why we kind of built a research team Is to figure that out. Like, what is success look like for us? I mean, there's the business side of it, right? We know what success looks like from a business number But what a success look like from a designer's standpoint and and, like I think the airline cares for this to exit. I know they do. It is we want to give our guest the best experience possible in terms of flying them from point A to point B and generate that loyalty, right? Like you're just not cattle. You're at your human being, We care about you and we want to give you the best experience when you travel

awesome again and put me in a different direction of those other things you don't talk about. But I'm really interesting stuff. Is there a specific target audience that you focus on? Me like an airline is a It's something Everyone flies Aisling. You know, mothers, business people, everyone, every human being flies. And of course, all kinds of people fly Alaska or any other airline. But is there a specific type of traveler that you guys are focusing on more than another, or are you trying to solve these problems for everyone?

I think it's the latter. So you know, I won't go into detail our personas, but for the profiles that we've developed. But you know, we we care about everybody. We care about everyone. And oftentimes what happens is if we're designing for the business traveller, a lot of the value that they're going to get everyone else is gonna get that too true, right? And so it's kind of like that top down approach. However recently I've been really thinking about like those first time flyers like that. That's the moment where you can capture that loyalty. Oftentimes right is like that first time flying on that for your This is your first experience of Alaska Airlines. How do we capitalize on that? Yeah, so it the range is quite.

It's wide right like we want. We care about everyone. But, you know, as businesses do, we have to target our work to certain personas to be successful

to them. Yeah, it's always It's always like there's very few businesses that can actually say we sell the everyone. Yeah, you don't it, like especially for my side of the table, because we're talking to a client and we asked, Well, who users what they care about? And if most companies will say Oh yeah, everyone where the typical response that has no, you're wrong. But like a business like this. It's true. Yeah, It affects a lot of people that I think that's really interesting. OK, another question. What are the biggest challenges that you faced in the year that you've been there? And what are some of the things

that you're the most proud of? So I think as a designer, well, I mean, we have a seat at the table and you hear this a lot, right? But it's it's true at Alaska like we have. I think we have proven ourselves to care and and that we we care about, you know, we have to work with product. We gotta work with engineering. We gotta work with executives and they see that we have their best interest in mind. And then we also have the guest best interest in mind. Right? So one thing that we've really been working on is just how do we communicate? How do we bring value when we have seat at the table, like and? And this, I mean, this speaks to a conversation you had recently about getting to understand what is the business And how does the business

function? Yeah, just a chime in there. He's mentioning a recent episode of The Podcast with Greg Story from USA talking about how important it is for designers not to just empathize with their users and customers but empathize with the business organizations that they're working with internally. So listen to that if you want, check it out,

Yeah, and so that's because we have a seat at the table. We have to take into account those business decisions, and we have to be really knowledgeable, right? And all the business rules that go along with the features that were released, which are quite complex, often times So I mean, that's one thing I'm I'm also very proud about is that we've really kind of come together as an organization and learned howto work together and develop trust. So I think there's one that's a huge piece of being a designer's developing trust.

Oh my God. Um, absolutely like I That's what I talk like my role. I do a lot of sales. I talk about that all the time. This is something that that is big. Yeah, he's big. It and trust isn't It's hard, you know, like it can be hard and a lot of time uh, I think it's really important. I don't even want to know, like, I'm too scared of talking about this because I feel like I'll derail the conversation. But developing trust is huge, but there's no doubt that once you develop that trust,

there's the opportunity has become endless, right, You get out, you you can't just go into a new job or a new client thinking we're gonna come in and like, totally change the world for you. And you just gotta trust us. No trust has to be earned. And when you earn trust, then you know, just like any other situation, whether you're a kid, we're like a new employee or an agency like you have to earn the trust. And then you get to do stuff with that trust. You have to do things that to build that trust like it just doesn't happen. You have to develop ways of working. And so this leads me into one of the other questions.

I wasn't asking about Alaska. How do you guys do design there? Just generally speak like the design organization, like, How do you guys do design? What's the cadence look like? How do you structure the work. Like what? I mean, what I mean. Is there anything you want to talk about there? I mean, that's not interesting.

We talk about something else. Well, I mean, when I think of design it Alaska, I work with a lot of great people. I mean, they're people that teach me, and they helped me grow as a professional as a designer. And watching them work has really helped me out in the last year, like the things that I've learned have been things that I didn't expect that I would learn. And I attribute that to my team and also others that I've worked with within other disciplines. But

probably the reason why you guys have trusted that sort of stuff is happening.

Yeah, and, um, I mean, we care a lot about research. So what's cool about being a designer in Alaska is that were given the opportunity to do a lot of research? Um, which from what I gather is not, you know, doesn't happen very often, right? It sucks

to say this, but we work with so many companies every year, and some are really good about it. But some art

and you know that's just the way it is. Yeah. I mean, with me in particular, like my my counterpart, Lana. She's, ah, senior product designer in Alaska. I mean, she's she's brilliant, and she's really has helped me open my eyes in a lot of ways, in terms of how to conduct research and really using design thinking and apply it to everything. So we we test, you know, we're always looking to validate and in validators our assumptions. And then once we you know,

we kind of get close and we're like, Okay, we feel confident that we can move forward with this solution. So I like to think of it is, you know, we put a lot of effort. We frontload the research instead of back loaded. So if you do all that work up front, I think it's more probable that you're gonna be successful, right? It's It's more about the process than it is the final product because we iterated right so we can always change it. If we if we did all that work up front and then we release a feature and we find out that it wasn't successful as we hoped, Well, we can just go back and realized like, Well, there was a moment where we did everything we could in our power to come up with the best solution.

But then it's just, you know, as a science goes, often times were rattled him. I was like that. Maybe it's a change course.

What's the team structure? Looks like

we have you. I designers, we have product designers and we have researchers. As prime designers were often times, you know, we kind of live in the research world. We do some u i and we, you know, primarily do you act So

let me stop you there just just to make sure understand. Good. This is really interesting, because every organization is different. What I heard was that product designer at Alaska means generalist. Yes, you I designer means specialist Correct. Okay. Yeah. Possible. Okay.

Um yeah, and which I really I really enjoy to be honest, cause I can learn each of these disciplines and just get better over time, right? Yeah, we have quite a large team. And, um, it's a great group of people that really care to do a great job and to do best by the guest

awesome. Yeah. I mean, anyone that hasn't flown Alaska should definitely check it out. So back to you, back to your own and being a lifelong learner in these things. How did you get into design? How would you recommend someone that wants to get him designed to get in design and what's really necessary to get that first riel job?

So how I like to think of it is, you know, my life has consisted mostly of two steps forward, one step backwards. And it wasn't a direct shot from school to design that being said throughout that my entire life. You know, I guess that's an overstatement. But since, like, fourth grade have been a musician, right? So I mean, I've been an artist at heart, and I started a family at a young age Of what age? Let's see, 21. Okay.

Yeah, yeah. So you know, with that came a lot of responsibility. And, you know, I had pursued in many different careers, But the thing I always wanted was How do I How can I get paid to be creative? How can I get paid to be an artist? Because I couldn't be a rock star. I tried it didn't work like every other musician. Or most. And so, you know, with that came, You know,

a family member had kind of encouragement, like, Hey, Ryan, you know you're a musician. You're an artist. You're a creative guy. Why don't you check out this web designs? Your brother? My brother in law brother? Yeah. Okay. Is he a designer? He is a director of product right now. It's squarespace. Oh,

yeah. Okay, so Yeah. Awesome. Ah, great guy. He kind of helped me like, you know, he encouraged me to get it in the industry.

Yeah. How do you not listen to someone who's

doing that? Yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's I mean, the rest is kind of history. I I started taking online tutorials reading books, and then she really, really trying to understand what design in front of development. And one thing led to another, You know, where I felt confident in this space. And then I just started applying to jobs in Seattle and got picked up. I start up and, you know, slowly been working my way towards design. Uniquely Yeah, it's been great. I mean, so now I get paid to be creative, so it's like it's the best

job. What? I imagine that the definition of creative has changed, right? Because I'm sure I'm similar, right? Like I I got into design because I was in tow, like copying, pacing stuff out of magazines and making punk rock scenes on Xeroxes. And, like I was interested in skateboarding graphics, I also wanted to get paid for being creative. But my definition of creative change, like I realized, what's That's not full freedom, creativity. It's about business,

right is interesting, but I still think that designers, even though we're in business now, we have to find ways to be like, totally creative. We're talking about this a little bit yesterday evening about young designers, people, whether they have, ah, a formal education design or not like it's really hard to get that first job really hard because they're people now realize that this is a career path. People are teaching design skills and high schools. People are teaching design and Junior High's. Some people go to like get their masters like some people are cruise, which is like, How do you get that first job? I mean, what like how What makes someone stand out like you're interviewing someone? Alaska. What makes someone stand out?

So what comes to mind is are you in it to win it? Right? So when you're interviewing someone and you know they're there, they don't have a ton of experience. Maybe they went to school. But you can tell they have worked really hard to do the work that they've done that they're showing you and that they're trying their best to present it to you, and they should. And they also show, um, confidence in that, you know, And as like, as with all interviews, you know, you could be a little nervous, but you can tell when someone's really in it to win it. And so I think,

Ah, lot of it comes with grit and attitude. Like, you know, I've done X, y and Z. I volunteered. I'm trying to learn and grow and yeah, you know, I haven't had that first job yet, but I'm I'm really trying hard. I'm really trying my best. And I think in interviews you can you can see that and you can hear that.

I agree. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. All right. So you get that first job, you build a career, you do the thing you know. You realize, Oh, it's not just about freeform creativity. Have to be a good designer. And let's be empathetic with people. I work with you users of customers, whatever language used, like How do you continue to learn? Like how does Ryan continue to learn as someone that feel strongly about constantly getting

better? So, as I mentioned earlier, like, I feel like I get to learn every day at work because of the people I work with. I don't do well with boredom when I get bored. It's a huge problem for me, just to be honest. And so you know, regardless of what I do at work, I'm always looking for ways to improve myself outside of work. And that means reading. And that means listening to podcasts like this one. Um,

thanks for being a listener,

but oh, yeah, I mean, as I mentioned earlier, you know this podcast. I remember listening to it four years ago. If it was that long ago, it was a while ago, and I thought, like I want to do what they do and that has got me to where I am because I had listened to people like you and the agencies that you work work in. And so, yeah, I mean it, really. I'm a lifelong learner. I mean, I and and that keeps me from being bored.

At what extent are you willing to not be bored like you have a family and a in a second baby on the way. Congratulations. Thanks. What extent are you? Do you pursue that? Like at the extent that you will take things home and work in the night or mornings, Like, I mean, do you find a way to mess it in to mold it into the things that you're doing in the daytime? Like, how do you do that? Because, let's face it when you're young and you don't have a lot of responsibility to really easy learn a lot of things because, you know, instead of like drinking at night with your friends, you're you know you're learning a new skill on YouTube or whatever, But when you have family Ah, and a serious day job, it's hard. How do you How do you do that? How do you make time to learn

you have to make time to learn. So you have to make it a part of your routine. What that looks like for me, as you know, after my son goes to bed and I take that time to dedicate to reading I mean, you know, I have to mix it up. Right? So one evening, I'm watching Mad Men the other evening, I'm reading a book or listening to a podcast. I mean, you know, I commute into Seattle. I live about 40. Uh, it's like,

25 miles away. And so when I'm on the bus, I'm listening to podcasts or audio books, right? I can't read on the bus because I get I get carsick in motion sickness, so that's unfortunate, but I can listen. I can listen to books. I can listen to podcasts. So I find those moments within my day to learn. And then I always think about how can I apply what I'm learning to my job. So suppose I read, you know, a book here, there. And I'm like,

Man, ah, lot of this spoke to me. And how can I bring this to the team? How can I bring this information and these new learning's to what I do at Alaska. Awesome.

Well, what do you Ah, What are you hoping to learn now? Like, Oh, what do you What are you trying to work on? What? What are some of the things that you want to be doing in the future? Like, what's the future of yourself as a designer look like? And what are some of the challenges you think you'll be facing?

Well, I'm always I'm always looking upwards. So I'm always looking for opportunities to hopefully one day lead and be able to mentor other designers because, I mean, other people have done that to me. So one thing that I must say is I'm not here because of my own will. Like I'm here for many reasons. And one of that is people that have poured into me as a person and important to me in my career and have encouraged me along the way, right? Even when I was down or when I was discouraged or like No, Ryan, keep gone. You know, I want to do that for other people, which I don't You know, I don't have to be a manager, a director to do that.

I can do that where I am now. But, I mean, I know there's a lot of research principles that I wanna learn. There's you I stuff that I I still have a lot of work to do on, and it's still a lot of u ex. I mean, I still have so much to learn. And that's I think one thing about being a designer is it's best just started a place of humility and recognize that you don't know everything, and you never will, Right? And if you started that level more often than not, you'll build great relationships with your colleagues and you'll establish that trust that we were talking about her there. Yeah, I think

if you think that you know everything, you're probably obsolete. And if you're if you think you're the smartest person that room, you're definitely at the wrong in the wrong room, right? Yeah. Awesome. Well, Ryan thinks we're taking timeto come out and be here in person. Do this. I'm looking forward. Thio having dinner and happy

hour tonight. Yeah. Means well, it's been a pleasure.

Awesome. How can people connect with the unknown in it? On the

Internet. Uh, you know, I'm on Instagram instagram guy, So I also have linked in I just set up a twitter because you would ask me, like in the in the sign up form to do this podcast. I signed up for a Twitter and ah did that, But I haven't posted anything, but yeah, my instagram is w l s R y n And then you can just look up Ryan Wilson at Alaska on linked and you connect with me that way. But I'm always willing tohave conversation. And you know, if anyone has any questions or about designer, what does it look like to pursue a career in design? I'm happy toe to communicate that

awesome. Thanks again for seven by check out Ryan stuff, connect with him and also check out last Caroline's. See

you next time. Hustle is brought to you by Fun Size, a digital service and product design agency that works with inspiring teams to uncover opportunities, evolved popular products, bring new businesses to market and prepare for the future. Learn more at fun sized dot c o I'm a stable markets, a product designer, fun size.