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Welcome, Thio. Fun size podcast. This is up to Hey, guys, this is Natalie. Here I am, a product designer.

Anthony Armendariz, product designer,

and I'm Rick Messer and I am a product design

or mobile product designers.

So what is a product designer was any? That's what we're gonna talk about today. So basically before 2007 before the iPhone, like, what was the product sign? Where did that come from?

I you know, back in the day when I heard product designer always, you know, I was relating that two people that were designing an industrial design like furniture, furniture, electronics, mobile handsets, podcast, microphones, that kind of stuff. Yet I didn't really think of Web design or at least have a concept of wet doing Web Web applications. Web proxy is being a product center. I think it was for me, the the iPhone, into that Yeah, Treasury. Remember whatever

I was in high school and I wanted to become something like an architect, like I was always really interested in art, but I never knew that there was actually designed related to the Web. I always thought it was like designing blog's. That's as far as I ever got and it was you,

the you know, it's it's funny because it, you know, you hear this all the time or when I used to hire people that ever note we would get thes people that would apply for jobs like art director or creative director or senior designer and all the stuff that is so the only made sense in the Web world at very structured design agencies, those all all those roles to me are completely outdated, at least in what we do

right. Once they're still like a pretty heavy like, you know, a friend world advertising.

I think it's because they these companies were doing really grand scale things, and they have hundreds of people. So the only way they can structure the project or allow a growth trajectory for someone is to is to have titles in Syria's of Reports management, which makes sense, I guess if you're doing something like a huge campaign for Ford Advertising or redesigning The New York Times, but what we do, what we all three dude designing these mobile products are teams air one or two, maybe three people. There's control. It's like flat we don't We don't have the these very different roles working together like, you know. And I remember also, teams were doing websites back in the day when you'd have maybe, you know, you have a project manager. Uh, you'd have a user experience,

professional or interaction designer, you'd have a creative director, and then you would have designed leave senior designer, junior designer all on one project, and everyone did a very different role based on the waterfall process. Define the strategy of the product that's handed over to the interaction designer that creates all the information, architecture and interaction. Design visual designer. A lot of times weren't even included, and then the designers handed to set a wire frames and the visual designer art director where you want to call it. That direction sets the tone for the art direction. The production designer executes

it. Remember, all of that doesn't get in for tears. I would go through. You have a list of some pre iPhone Aaron jobs are designed jobs. So we've got how does that really know, too a product designer. Now we've got interaction is under got user experience. Designer, visual designer, production designer and just one desires have that. These are the things that we had before what

we call product. Yeah, and and I think people used to think about those specific tracks to pursue your career. Um, and it's not that these don't exist anymore. They do exist. And they existed big companies where they need the structure and they exist in in more traditional inter interactive firms. But I think for us a product designer is someone that embodies all five of those skill sets. Thehe bility to translate strategy into interaction design and understands what is needed to create a meaningful user experience to a specific persona or user designs with empathy for the user. Right. And it is an expert visual designer, is an expert production designer and probably knows a lot of other things, like branding a graphic designer Web design. And I think for us it fun size of product designer is someone that definitely has all the skill sets. You can't just have one card

processor, right? Yeah, so we didn't really have a product. Designers what we call a product designers now before, like then we have, like 2007 iPhone comes out on an Anthony. You'd said something in the earlier about how all the s coming out. Google and Apple on Facebook. What? What did that lead into?

Well, I mean, I'm sure everyone has their own experience with it. The I remember when the iPhone came out and I My first impression was Why do I need this thing? I don't I don't actually need this device. I'm not quite sure what I'm what. I'm going to spend so much money on it, you know, because you guys remember it didn't even have maps right at the time. Right? And we as designers, I don't think we at least I didn't understand what creating an APP store would do.

No, right, definitely didn't either. I remember wanting one really bad because I was like a band in high school band website. I wanted to pull a tiny little screen up in polar Web site. Seeing

that's interesting. Web designers, we were thinking about how our web designs would look on finally on a mobile device in disappointing, you know, in in the app the app store launches and all of a sudden people realize that there is an industry about creating products for people and putting them in the store so people could distribute their software to the store instead of having in the shelves at best, Buy or whatever. And so where do you think all the jobs were in and what happened? How do you find those people? Well, you know a lot of the people that I know that we're, you know, great graphic designers, a great Web designers were approached by, you know, product companies, people that were making applications and they were acquired. Or you're hired and,

you know, over the last few years, and this hasn't slowed down at all, in fact, it's gotten more aggressive. It is a war to find people with these skill sets, you know, Facebook and Google and Apple and those those those tears of of companies. Will they invest a significant amount of their money into acquiring talent, even if it means buying other companies, closing them down just to get the

It's been so popular that I've heard a term coined for that, and that would be a hire car. I think it was is either outward Google. I heard that they have like this guy. His job is to just go to conferences and find, like, talent went. Basically he that's his full time job is to find talent.

Yeah, any product standards are definitely in high demand. Yeah, And you know, if you're a talented designer and you know where do you know, surely you'd want to work at a company that's creating really innovative products. And once you have that job and you and you realize how cool it is, doing mobile products like that is if I had, you know, just looking at myself that that is a re defining moment in my career where I'm like, I'm not a Web designer, not a visual designer. I'm not a strategist on Iraq's designer mobile products in there. That's what I wanna do, right? And, um,

and if I were looking for jobs, you know, personally, I would only accept a job if it was product designer, because I think it really speaks to the fact that it's just not one skill set like this is everything. Yeah, the ability to actually create a product create No, I don't mean no development or whatever, but I mean too, you know, break, create a concept and bring it to reality. It's funny. Think about this all the time and I've tried to click back through dribble to see the transition. But I really do remember when when Natalie had started focusing 100% on Mobile and I had just started my first company and my business partner, Steven Rae,

and I were trying to figure out What are we gonna focus on? Right. And we were like, We're gonna focus on mobile. That's what we're gonna do. And there was this weird period where Everything on dribble. I remember it being Web like everyone on his Web. Now, Now I What does it look like today?

You never even see a Web shop riding lessons like a stitches. You know, Infographic isn't somewhere. Yeah,

yeah, almost all of its mobile. And I and I think that it makes a lot of sense because there's all these devices in the landscape now. Tablets, laptops, big screen televisions, iPad, minis, mobile phones, wearable technology and all these things to me kind of fall into that, um, mobile context. And and that's where people are spending their money and including the people that are hiring designers. And it's it's really encouraging to to see colleges like Texas State were Sam teaches, where they're actually teaching both responsive Web design and Native mobile design in the curriculum. I don't know how many people are doing that, that there they're realizing,

at least if that's where the jobs are going. Um, you know, competing in the space is really difficult, but at least there getting those skills that's early on. And

so we keep talking about the word product designer. So what does Wikipedia say? That is cool. According to Wiki, it's part design is the process of creating a new product to be sold by a business to its customers. In a systematic approach, product designers conceptualizing the value of ideas, turning them into tangible inventions and products. The product designers role is to combine art, science and technology to create new products that other people can use. You know, I can I can see like reading that I can kind of see how I fell into this area a little bit more clearly because I I was a freelance like Web designer. I started working for a product company two years ago. Before that, I was just a designer and I was totally on my own and I was doing everything. Basically, I was doing,

you know, marketing. I was doing the actual work I was doing billing. I was doing collecting, you know, I think money on I was doing customer service. I was also doing sales, you know, like I didn't really know what I was doing. To be honest, at first I had to kind of like my way through it. But the thing is, I just I was sort of doing a little bit of everything. And I think now seeing that product designers have like, there's that you know, there's the Google in the Facebook and like the huge companies that have done,

But my experience has actually been like in the small start up world where it's a start up. So it's cool, but you're tougher. Resource is so you sort of where a lot of hats So that's where I see you know, this definition coming back in where you're combining all these things and thinking about the product of the

whole Well, yeah, because that you the start up that you were at as a product designer, you were the only designer if you were responsible, you were directly responsible for putting anything that was designed related into the user's hands, like you didn't have interaction. Designer, that just out of our friends were you had you had to think about how all those things would work together in a puzzle in and solve the problem. You know, that's actually one. That's actually the reason why you were the first person that we reached out to fun size, because not just the fact that you had been in an environment doing all those roles, but the fact that you understood the need, right. The need to, like have to solve all these problems where, where many has work in a small environment where you don't have,

like you don't have always have, like all these tears of creative direction or whatever, and be able to take responsibility for putting your own workout out there. A lot of people that we that we know are the we know of would probably have an extremely hard time fitting into an environment like ours, where that's what those those things

required. Yeah, I can't say, you know, that were a lot of hats before. I can't say I did everything perfect, but it was fun. And it was like, Oh, man, we need, like, wire frames for this, you know? And I was like, I don't know. Sure.

Why not? Yeah, sure. And, uh, yeah, I didn't do everything perfect, but I should learn a lot. You know, that's how you're supposed to be that you don't do that.

Yeah. I mean, there's still a lot of people who haven't had experience working for a product company or for a small company like fun size that works for product companies. But the mindset is different. You know, You think about just the Scott the size of the scope of projects. They're different, the budgets air smaller. We can't put six people on this project. If you know, if you're working with us near their client is relying on you to solve the problem. You're not gonna have someone that's gonna deliver you a wire frame all the time now that with that being said, I mean everyone in and fun size are we all? We consider everyone a product designer. Everyone has a very different skill set. Everyone, if thrown into a fire could could equally solve a problem that you know,

You. I think you have to figure out what your specialty is. You know, still, but, uh but, you know, the world that we're in is is is designing all these different things that make up a product service in the whole ecosystem? Yeah. So, you know, think about Twitter, right? I mean, there's mobile lapse on every platform. There's also mobile Web because what's gonna happen when you get an email and you click on something and you don't you know you need to be able to access the the conversation,

and then there's the, you know, the branding and you know, the way the tone of voice that they write you and all that all those things are the product. What fun size focuses on is the native mobile parts of that. That's where really where we shine that we're start, we've started to Really? You know, when I first started the business, we're like we will absolutely do know branding. We will do no websites. We're only gonna do mobile. But even since we recorded our last podcast and with the since we brought on people to the team and fun size. They have all the skill sets. I think you guys have both seen that. We've definitely embrace the fact that the brand and that the Web presence and the Web applications are our increase.

The whole experience for that brand is not that we didn't realize that was important. It's just that we weren't taking on those components. But now I think we are. And I think you know, a year from now we'll probably be full service.

So there's Native Mobile products than there is mobile Web. There's responsive, which is, you know, kind of the same thing. Right. Then there's sites and applications branding and that this sort of like all those components going to the overall service. So what? We're still kind of focused on you need a mobile? We kind of like, touch on some of those things is what you're saying, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, so as Wikipedia defines it, basically somebody who works at a company that sort of embraces art,

science and technology for the product, you know, title together. What does a person who does something like that need Thio? Like what? What's our skills? Sense? Did it

Natalie, you want to give your opinion or

well, I think for I could give what I think is the most important thing to me as your If you're a Web designer and you're trying to become a part of designer, I think the most important thing in my eyes personally, is that you can't take a website and try to cram it onto a mobile device. You have to design with the users and 10 and actually think about the environment that they're in. But the way that someone uses the Web site is completely different in the way that they use a mobile device. And I think that that is something that everyone should kind of this the foundation of, you know, the designs that we come up with.

I mean to elaborate on that first. Yes, Well, yeah, elaborate on that. Most mobile products require ah designed to be solved in a very small amount of space. So unlike Web, we're putting all these widgets and buttons in front of someone. You have to kind of what someone told me, which I believe to this day on that small mobile screen. There needs to be one thing that that's screen does right? Well, right? Is it a time tracking out? You need to be able to start and stop the timer with the least amount of friction. One of the things that's where I've seen people struggle the most trying to take their talents from the Web to Mobile is that they think it's all about pretty pixels and aesthetics on the Web. The but with buttons.

Look and and I could see them struggling, trying to fit all these things in there. But there are especially now with modern eyeless. With I was seven and modern Android stuff. There's vory little chrome, so you can't just get away with designing pretty pixels that doesn't solve the problem. You have to solve the whole flow. How does the user get from Point A to point B or C and perform that task? Don't bring

Mom making sure that you are converting your client's business

schools, right? It's not. Yeah, it's definitely just not about pixels. The pixels, to me is a visual designer, right, and there's that still there. But you know the way that we know that we've defined it. Fun size is we kind of think very basically, product designer should be able to convert companiesbusiness goals in user goals into product specifications. They should be able to take those product specifications and get the client to sign off on them. Figure out what's going on, what with the minimum viable feature set toe have. It's gonna make a product successful. Translate those into wire frames or visual designs,

right? And sometimes it's not waterfall sometimes that you don't have the luxury of the time or the budget to create a wire frame. Sometimes you just gotta do visual design, and sometimes you're using a bit of both. And even if you're doing Bolt, that doesn't mean it's gonna be one after another. And then they're all interchangeable, you know, prototyping your work, making sure that you're that the solution that you saw actually works. And in most cases, even you know the things that we do. Once we get into a prototype, we realized the opportunity to tweak it, to make it make sense and presenting and selling your work with to your teammates into the client, because,

you know, it's fun size. We don't have product. We don't have project managers. We don't have a buffer that's gonna be in the middle between the designer and a client. A designer is gonna talk directly with an engineer or a product manager on the client side, and they're gonna make commitments on the spot. And you need to be able to estimate the amount of work that it's gonna take presented and sell it into the client.

Yeah, we gotta have the project manager. Thank you always. No, no, no, no. Yes. Um, but you said something about, you know, products, but converting business schools in the specifications usually, like once you understand what the company wants, You know, the client wants their users to do on their app. Then that's when you sort of get the hand like,

Okay, this is what a wire frame could look like because it's, ah, hierarchy thing. It's like a very simplified hierarchy thing. Get way less to do what you got. It's like a magnifying elevator pitch. Yeah, it's like an elevator pitch for a website. It's like here's a big called actionable, but with the slider. And here's like the whole media navigation with mega drop downs panel that that sort of thing. Then there's like some welcome content page. But if you're on a mobile device, somebody's looking at your page or your screen on the go, and they need Thio. Make a decision about what that's going to they're going to do about being on there really quickly. If there's too many options about what to do there, probably their decision I have to do, they're going to think

you're right, I think. And that's one of the reasons why mobile products have become cheaper in terms of time and costs. Because it's really easy to sell those ideas right. You say, Well, the user's goal is to press this button right? That's the only thing that screen needs to do, like it removes a lot of the subjectivity from from the client side. Oh, well, maybe it should do this and this like No, it

should. All right. It's about the ability to kind of create learns that kind of complete the task that you want a complete right. I think one of the successful things about a mobile app is your ability to immediately get your tests finished, and that time that it took you to complete it like that to me kind of defines excess of, you know, most of things that we work on. Well, I think you know, you touched on something interesting there, Anthony. At the injuries, you need to be able to present and sell your work. You know, that's something that we do, not just our clients, but to each other.

You need to get a defendant to, so we're but the thing about the way we've been working is it? It's agile approach to designing, you know, like an agile development methodology is something that is normally just, you know, a lot of the development team sort of embraced these cycles that are about to experience the other stories and attract those you know, you signed into each other, and then you mean again, you know, you have your your standup scrums where you plan these two weeks, France, and then you have a check instead of constantly, like pushing, pushing up each other. Okay,

that's what I do. That's what I'm doing. You know, this is what I've done, and this is my locker. What's been really fun over you guys is that we really embrace that, you know, methodology, which is meeting very regularly showing your work as you're working and, you know, don't get too far down the rabbit hole before you've done wrong direction for

that's that's huge. It's like I believe that That's the main reason why we're hired because we realize that you can't create a good product with a strict waterfall project plan that doesn't allow for constant adoration, you know? I mean, we've won projects before where the prospective client was dead, scared of the proposal that the agency gave them because it was so limited. Right? You're gonna get concept design and two rounds of visions and then wire frames or whatever, right in a very structured approach and product company just don't work that way. I think the difference is that engineers think M v p. They think. Okay, let me ship the most minimum viable features needed to get this product out there. Designers traditionally have always been about let me follow this rigid, strict process to get to something beautiful. Right now, I I appreciate that right.

We all appreciate that we're designers, but that just doesn't work in this landscape. If we were to take, if you were to take a week and just go in, go down a path of exploring. You could have already blown the budget for that month for that client. They need something that big ship. And if you're waiting a week or two weeks to show it to them, I don't know. I don't think the whole, like, one

or two week radio silence and then doing like a giant Don Draper reveal ever, you know, work for other, like serious. I think it's a cool thing to

see it. And, you know, I mean, maybe there's some. Maybe there's some caveats there like if you're creating a new product that doesn't exist yet, sometimes we're creating new products, and sometimes they're operating on existing products. But yeah, I mean, I think as a culture, we definitely at least the three of us in this room. And most people on our team understand that you have to show the work early and often so that you can fail quicker and get to the right answer faster and, you know, and I was at the Digital Project Management Summit in one of the basic things that I learned their hearing project managers talk about. It is that clients tend to freak out when there's radio silence for two or three days. Right,

if you if you're showing work early and often every two or three days, people, people understand that progress is happening. But if you're waiting more than that to three day timeframe to show something to a client, their natural tendency as human beings is to want to take the steering little away from me and Dr Project. And that's where friction happens. And that's and that's why you know, agencies have a hard time working product teams because it's a different way.

Freud this. It does help the client a lot to feel better about everything's on track. This is where I want to be. You know, that's great, because then you you know, I know that you have confidence where you're going. But another thing that's really just healthy about it is as a designer, you're constantly like like your work is getting evaluated. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not too early. It's not like you worked for five minutes and then you show, you know, like that would be really frustrating. It's not that early, but,

you know, check in with each other pretty regularly. It's really it's really fun. Thio collaborate, You know, at an early stage, um, another thing that is very like bookish before talking about agile, agile development Just being on that real quick, you know, quick federation type thing is the MVP, like everything is focused on EVP and, like, I have come to just really love that because it's so much like don't get caught up on, like, this feature that's gonna be like,

just you scope creeping in scope creep, Let's go free. But you never get a product out right now and you have one right arm wonky feature that's like taking like Tim directions. You know, just just shipment, and you

gotta get it out there to the user and see

what I think. You know. That's really data, right? You get to be a degenerate based on you don't have to speculate what the consumer is gonna think of this out if you're getting feedback from them in real life, because you shift in M V P. That's fine, because people don't want, you know, I don't want to be bothered with, like this huge thing that's super big and annoying. I I'm totally rambling. No, really, I

mean that I'm

sorry for saying I at the same time on the flip side of that, like also, I don't think the M V P should be issues to ship something that's really crappy. That's

true. Yeah, and most clients are, You know, when you when you have a good idea, you can present it to them. And it doesn't have to be like, fully thought out could be a scheduler or a bulleted list or whatever. You know this thing, this whole concept is really impacts fun size quite a bit, because the people that we brought onto the team, we think, are the people that embody these skills. That's the best but more importantly, possess the ability. Thio let the design process be collaborative and show their work early and often. The designers struggle with this, like really talented designers that could probably never work at fun size because they don't feel comfortable showing their work early. They want to they want toe, wait until it's perfect.

It's it's hard, you know, when you know that you have more chance down the road, you know, and you're more open. I feel I just feel like it's more honest, you know, it's just like I don't know. It feels good to just get it out there and sort of like, let it breathe a little bit, Let it get early impressions. Yeah, I like it that way. It's like it's like, No, you've got Well, I guess the point I'm trying to make right now. It's like it just goes back to, like, don't get too far down right and realize that you've been going the wrong way

could be weak. As as mobile product designers, we could easily be a be a a bottle meant for a client to be able to create their product. You know, one of the developers that we've been working with lately want us to deliver the designs that were working on, whether they're finished or not, so that they can begin building it because if they had to wait until we're completely done pixel perfect, it wouldn't it would never get shit. And the thing is that most of these people do actually embrace that and understand that design is never finished. And I think that's the world we live in. Is that we all believe that it's never done. We could iterated over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, and

that's great. I mean, look at all the acts that we love to use every day. You know, they're constantly coming up with new features all the time. We still love them because because when we love them back, you know, when I first got them, it was relevant. But they've evolved with us as we're constantly like learning, used new skill sets, and we still love them because they're still evolving. So I mean, hey, I mean, if you want to know how you stick with it in business and keep your product relevant, just keep iterating on it.

I think that's it's awesome. Well, I love cos you know. Yeah, I love getting you. I don't see it that much without us. And I like the auto de turned on. I used to love to read like the developer notes, when they're doing a new new episode or like release of Are You yeah, mailbox like What's new?

That's the That's the beauty of It does keep getting better, and it's you know, and I think it's okay to, you know, ship updates early, you know, are often every two weeks or, you know, some some people show makeup dates weekly, and it can be annoying, but your product is getting better and better. I think users understand that, like like you just described. And that kind of makes it heart. Like working in this world really makes it hard to, um, to for these traditional roles to really make sense,

right? Like to be able to work in this agile world. You know, a company like fun size would never be able to have, like a creative director and on inner user experience person, because it's usually a small team that solving this problem like Iterating over and over again. You know, those those those all those extra rolls would just be an extra cost or a client that would make the cost to hide for the client to be able to afford. We're doing right, right? And I think, you know, like just a kind of tight back where we started. We were talking about product design, and I think what a product designer ends up with is a creation of a product that has a user experience. It's a bad user experience,

for it's a good user experience. And so the way that we've kind of, you know, people. A lot of my colleagues will probably table definitely call me out being wrong on this. But I've just grown to accept the fact that user experience is not a role. It's what you create. It's gonna be good or bad. It's a byproduct of the work that you're creating and not just design, but the quality of engineering and all the things that you can't capture in a complex, the animation, the reaction speed, all the invisible thing

and all the research that came into creating, helping to create that movie. How good was that? That's a good movie, you know, And everybody was working towards designing that feeling for you to feel after. But even the directors don't know for sure. It's gonna be a successful, like good user experience. You know, tell it hits the ground now, telling his years and you go and you experience, and I think I will. Someone agreed with you need about the u ex thing because I think you're the 1st 1 To be fair, you're the 1st 1 to tell me that you thought you actually use your experience was a by product, you know? So you know,

work. I thought about that. I think that's a really good point. And you act what we all define as right now and what it says on companies that aren't really sure what that means. David's user experience. And it's more like when when it comes down, you know, use your experience is not necessarily what a U X designer does. It's more like choir frames, and the interaction

is a guest in the thing that I've I've noticed. You know, I spent some time working at every note. Evernote had to design positions open for about eight months, and those spots weren't getting filled. It was a combination of, you know, you know, let's keep in mind. Austin isn't San Francisco. There's not a lot of people in Austin with product experience, but the kinds of people that would have applied with the college students, people that came from traditional agencies, there were art directors or creative directors and user experience people, right, and the problem was that neither of those three people were qualified for that role because that user experience person there someone that came from a big agency doing quote unquote user experience didn't have the skills necessary to design a product. They would only built the wire frames.

Right and art director wouldn't be able to solve the flow where the interaction design. They would rely on the user experience. Person in a college student is competing with both of these people, right? And it's It's really odd because and we talked. We talked a little bit about this on the last episode. But there is such a big difference in what's expected of you from being coming from one extradition rolls to doing, being doing little product sign just because you're good, you're good at interaction design for wire frames or your good art director. That doesn't make you qualified to do what we're doing. It is different in a lot of people aren't willing to either looking for these older roles and these roll older roles, in my opinion, are disappearing. And so you kind of gotta adapt or get away.

I can't argue there. I think that is still is around certainly, and you Well, the thing is, the people running large agencies, that's how they get event. So why would they fix it? They're still building a ship. He said shit did it billable hours, so, yeah, it ain't broke. Don't fix it. You know what it is, anyway, uh, So we turned about You know what?

What it is, you product designer, I guess. Just sort of explore the history that a little bit, What we interpreted to be today. Oh, so now if you're wanting to be a problem with that, almost just leads into an entire day topic. You know, like we just sort of, like, covered with history. And the evolution of our problems is now. But if you're well, let me ask Let me pretty this way. And you gotta be kind of quick.

I gotta go in four minutes. If fun Size is looking for a you know, if you look for pride signer, what does that mean? Things that you're looking for?

Um, just the kind of summer we were looking for. The things we talked about earlier. We're looking for someone that is comfortable being on a team of 12 or three. Possibly even being solely responsible for solving problems, hearing with the client, saying translating that into design solutions? No, they have to decide when to use certain deliverables when to use. A visual design cop went to use a wire frame when to use a prototype, because it's not always gonna be in any certain order they need to be. They need to know their tool belt and pull those pull those exercises or deliverables out of the blue and solve the problem.

So you have much use for someone that is specifically good

portion. Definitely not, I mean, because we we mean But we're a small company and want to stay small. And we win projects because our price, because the quality of work on the price point and when you when you add all these different layers of people, I think quality, you know, is impacted a little bit. Costs definitely is, and you know, and we will be able to maintain our quality life here fun size, working 32 hours a week or whatever bye by keeping everything small. And I think people that are wanting to grow in those areas just need to understand what they're really worth if they don't have those skills learnt how to acquire them. Take risk work for companies. Lower your costs you need because you're competing with everyone else that has or doesn't have the skill sets. And you just gotta be, you know, willing to keep learning and try hard and fail and be okay with feeling

I Well, I guess it's gonna get for this episode.