you should surround yourself with people that you are writing for. So you know you're actually giving them something that they'll actually give a shit about you.

What is a sexy bastards? It's your boy pilot, G 205 88. Robert can't lose a que no Kegan. In today's episode, I talked to Alex Lieberman of morning brew dot com. He created a daily newsletter that is basically Wall Street Journal for Millennials. So what's crazy about this is that Alex has built this newsletter to an eight figure business and over a 1,000,000 subscribers in record time. So, you know, your boy wanted to steal us secrets and share them with you. In this conversation, you're gonna enjoy three major things. Number one a step by. Step on. How the hell can you get your 1st 1000 subscribers? Quick feedback loops,

guerrilla tactics for user acquisition and more things about advertising and growing an analyst number to dealing with anxiety? Yeah, we talked about some real real talk challenges, growing company and steps you can take to keep performing at your best. Number. Three. How to keep scaling your business model and removing all bottlenecks. Enjoy those three things, plus a bunch more surprises along the way. Product. Blue. Before you jump to the conversation, go check out sumo reid dot com. It's, Ah, charity ride we've been putting together where we have a party.

We ride bikes and we contribute to a fund. Cause all the money 100% goes toe laptops for kids so that they can have the same opportunity you and me have. Last year we raised nearly 15,000 buckaroos and donated over 200 laptops. It's not a hard core ride. You don't have to wear the spandex, but we will have tacos, frozen margaritas, Lance Armstrong's race organizers helping, and we're gonna have a blast down here in Austin, Texas, on September 13th and 14th. There's only about 50 spots available, and if you can't make it, you can still donate it. Check it out. Sumo reid dot com Special pre show shot out listener to the self made businessman of U.

S. A. He left review and said, I like that. No one just does the podcast the way he thinks it should be done, and I don't do these shots to hear my own compliments. I want to showcase you sexy bastard. CSU. So leave a review in iTunes and I will feature one of you six investors in an upcoming episode. Things is number one Jew, Alex Lieberman,

Alex Jew Berman from Living Stein, New Jersey.

A lot of times I don't If you're noticing this when you started morning, Brewer like, yo, this is fucking dope. Yeah, and like your did all this crazy shit because you're nothing to lose. Yeah, And then that got you to

this place. You're like, all right, We have to be a little more less risky. People lose their way and you lose like your core. Yeah, like it's always a constant battle of, especially when you have a lean team. It's like our biggest concern is about diluting ourselves. But it's like this balance of we do the same exact thing year after year after year. At some point, we become less interesting to people or tar readers. So questions like, how can we continue to create things that add value for them but also not spread ourselves too thin?

One thing with that, though I wondered too, is that it's longitudinal. It takes time because they might start not caring about you now, but you don't really even realize it.

0 100 Sent, like I'd be interested to know. Like how we can actually measure that other than just, like, anecdotally, be talking to a lot of people. Did you have more Jack since last time? I see you mother possible? Yeah. What do you consider? It's what you do. So it's the Jewish genes. No, it's not. You were not meant to be that I grow horizontally, not vertically. Um,

not been working out of these amount. Like for me. I I'm definitely not like an anxious point of my life. And it's interesting because, like, everything's going so well, it's almost like my anxiety creates more anxiety because I'm like, Why the hell my so anxious? Like things were going well right now, bitches like there's amount of routine. There's so much like change and shed happening in my life. It just uncomfortable. And, uh, anyway, the reason I talked about that is because when I get like that,

there's like the three core things that I feel like I need to do to, like, balance myself. It's like sleep eating well and exercise, so I just make sure that I don't miss those when I'm anxious, because if I do, it's a spiral. It's funny how simple that is. It is. They sleep exercise. It's really simple, but like doing it now for two weeks straight but, like 20 years straight is really difficult. I mean, I get out of rhythms all the time like where I'll go instead of five days a week, six days a week,

working out. I go two days a week or something with with eating, especially for me. My body doesn't change when I eat. So like the only thing is like my energy levels change. So what it takes is like me eating like an absolute like a rain, getting one day where I feel horrible the next round, like I can't eat like this again, like I literally feel like I was driven over by a truck. When's us time? You re lapsed two days ago with drinking drink for 14 hours straight, and I felt horrible the next day and incredibly anxious should have done it.

You know what I'm thinking? My buddy Adam always says, which I like it like it is not about falling off to getting right back on, totally guessing for you. Got right back on exercising.

Eating. Yeah, yeah, this is what I've talked a lot about my friends. Like, What's the tipping point for habits? Because, like everyone says, they want to work out. Everyone says they want to read. So few people actually read like, What is the emotional tipping point that actually get someone to fall into routine Ever me, I think it's like once my anxiety levels are at a certain level, that's my tipping point because I just know how much better it makes me. When I focus on the trifecta, I'm when I lose sight of the trifecta. My anxiety is horrible.

When I don't have anxiety, my tipping point goes away because there's just like less of the emotional burden that's carried from not doing the trifecta. What do you interest by now? Like today, we're going to spot one is just honestly not being the office. I know there's just a pile of shit that I have to do, want to get back, and there's just a lot of things like, you know, living situation. Don't know what I'm doing. It's all these small things that are just adding up. And I think I am best when I am uncomfortable. But I feel like I'm controlling something. A lot of times feel like I need control. And I feel like I don't have control in anything right now,

which is, I think, when I get most anxious and I'm going for the first time on a private jet tomorrow, which most people would be excited about, I'm not because I'm just super oh, city seeing yesterday the Ethiopia Airlines flight. I'm like, Oh, shit. Like commercial jets haven't even lower crash percentage than private jets. Someone's gonna have to knock me out for takeoff and landing because I'm not mellow.

Deal with it. So how do you deal with this anxiety like if you have all these different things going on, so you just do you just eat, sleep and work out. Then it fixes itself. No, no, I going. I'll just do three.

The issue is is I can't expect that cause then if I create that expectation, it's like five days later, I'm like looking my clock being like your body. Why am I still anxious? I've been doing the Trife active well for the last five days. No, it's other things. Like when I'm super anxious. I talk to my therapist every like, two weeks. I try meditating and it's funny, like people are very either into meditation or not. I like it for the fact of it just, like, slows things down. The other thing. Honestly,

I practices like exposure therapy, which I know you've ever heard of that, but basically the idea. Okay, so I'm afraid of going on a plane and it crashing like, oh, CDs. Basically, the compulsion is because I'm afraid of going on a plane. It was a compulsion. I would just not fly, which is the worst thing Aiken Dio. So it's like making sure I fly, making sure, like before I go on this private jet, I'm actually visualizing us crashing,

and it sounds horrible, but it's exposing myself to the worst case scenario. So then I become numb to that feeling. So then there's, like nothing for me to be anxious about because the expectation has been created of like, we're gonna crash. It's gonna burn. We're gonna land somewhere in between Austin and New York, and you know that

don't die tomorrow. Do that. At least I got this recorded thing

that ties together all these. Oh, CDs is the fact of things where there's ambiguity and things right. Don't feel like I'm in control and there's not a black or white answer. That's where I'm most nervous because it's unanswerable. But I'm searching for an answer, and usually when I go through like these anxiety spurts, it's for two or three weeks and they go away. And then there's like a wall. And then it's so interesting just how the mind works because I'll be in a low like Everything is OK and it's unfortunate. But the way my mind works is like when everything is going well, it's like almost like my brain has started. Think them like something's off, like, how is everything so perfect right now? Like something has to go wrong. I need to at least be cognizant of getting out of that way of thinking. One thing I've noticed in general, we tone things down. Yeah,

people like me and like scrape. But this thing sucks like you can't actually say. Life is great. Yeah, I think that's just a common thing. Like in our society has

become a norm. I would say, like 90% time. I happy about work, but I think a lot of it is I don't feel it's organized. Yeah. And so for me, my like go to is just lists today. I was just like,

Ok, what the fuck do I really need to get done today?

Yeah, what's the one thing? That's what I was gonna ask. Like, how are you prioritising the stuff? I'm sure you could make a list of 25 things every single day Sunday's, though. I just get you just get distracted. So have, like, 18 things. It's like in the far right margin. Like the little shit. It looks like one of those cheat sheets that you making college for a test yet? Yeah, second point is like, how do you each person get their own level of control? So

for you, theres the trifecta play therapy. Plus, I guess, facing some of that stuff. Yeah,

but it seems like just getting organized. I think one thing is like mixing wonder when life is going Well, how do we just keep making going? It well or yeah, everyone, that kind of in a Lee has that same question slash expectations like the same idea of when people talk about like we've been in a bull market for 10 years. Right now, the stock market people are now like starting to get the edge of, like, there's no way we're gonna keep going up like things have to normalize. And then they start citing all, like, these geopolitical rest, which yeah, you know, maybe there's some weight to what those things are, but I'm searching for it also. But I guess part of me also looks at it as almost of life is always great. Not is that concerning. But does that mean you're not pushing yourself hard enough outside your comfort zone? Or is it just a certain mentality

of starting, pattern matching things going on in my life? And I'm trying to understand it, but basically I'm not satisfied with anything. Yeah, I think there's different personalities. There's people who run companies that are just never happy. And that's probably what you run a company because you're still always looking for things to get better. Yeah, and I think where I'm gonna find is where's the balance of just accepting something where it's not creating more pain in my life. Yeah, I kind of like always chasing, like even when I get what I want. It's not very

satisfying for sure. I think of my brain as like the best gift and curse in the sense that the way my mind works is I'm so incredibly curious and creative, like I'm asking 50 questions about the world the second that I step into a place like this. Second, I step into your office. I'm asking questions in my mind. I think it's such a productive thing. It's how I can be a life long learner and whether it be within morning brew or whatever I end up doing after morning brew. How will become an expert in that? But I think it's also a curse in the sense that because my mind is constantly racing, getting my brain to look through that positive lens constantly. It's all the lens and I think to your point, it's like it is all mentality. Our brains don't change how they're working. They're still just like it always on engine mode. But it's like if the lens changes the perception around the always on engine mode ends up going from something very productive toe unproductive like, What's the goal you've had like,

Morning broke out a 1,000,000 subscribers. You got a goal? Yeah. Okay. And then what happened? When you got that goal, we hit it. And then it was like, What's next? I'm sure you celebrate. We celebrated. But like it wasn't zero a 1,000,000 right? It was like 900,000 to a 1,000,000. It was 800 to 900,000. So is satisfying. But like after honestly,

a day of celebrating, we had this, like, 1,000,000 Reader Party. It was like What's next? And that's all we're thing about

now is what's next. When's the last time you were satisfied? Now you were genuinely

satisfied. It's a great question. I don't know. There's satisfaction with, like a goal that you want,

But you did have it too. It's a goal that you want and

there's hard work to get that girl right? Honestly, I feel most satisfied when I get to meet really smart people. Like I spend a lot of my time now like getting coffee with really smart people in food. I know

this one, right? Yeah, you're you're wanted that your lower like smart people. Wait, Mark got it. No,

no. But like, to me, that is when I feel most satisfied in general because it's like, really? Yeah, like, who's the last person? One example. Be, you know, Kettle on fire. Yeah, so met with one of the founders last night. Like, super smart guy like I learned a lot about Yeah, I learned a lot about supply chain and,

like, product from this person. Like to me. It was a 30 minute long masterclass where I got to, like, understand how this dude was thinking, not like the super edited version. Like how? Like whatever stories make out. Like, I just got to understand how he was thinking about things, the challenges he's been through, how he had to build a supply chain from scratch with an FDA approved product like mind blowing to May. And I think to me like I enjoy that most because it's like people performing at their highest level on what they dio like. It's an opportunity not only to be taught, which is like,

I love learning, but it's also have the opportunity to hopefully add value in a space that he wants to learn more about as well. That's where you think I feel most satisfied. And lucky is the fact that for a living I get to meet people that are in the top 5% of whatever they dio. But other than that, yeah, I think that's the really tough thing I've been trying to reconcile recently. That also, honestly, makes me anxious. Is Austenite trying to think about What do we ultimately want with our business there a few different pads the business can go. One is that this is a lifestyle business we have for the next decade paying off distributions and just continue to grow slowly there somewhere in the middle, where it's like reinvesting a should come back into the business, building other product and then selling in the next 3 to 4 years. An investment banker would argue, this year is the best time to sell our business because our top line growth from 2018 to 2019 it is gonna be hard to ever replicate that.

And so you kind of have all these different narratives and all awesome I know is we know what we want out of our professional lives, which is like We want to feel like we're providing a service that helps people. We want to feel like we're working around really smart people were building something from scratch. We feel constantly, intellectually challenged and we don't have to worry about money again. Those are criteria. The reason I think that's really important is, as we think about, like, say, the third scenario of selling or business at the end of this year. Our whole thing is like, OK, we sell. Then what? Like them what?

We travel for six months, do charity for six months. Okay, now we're 26 25. What do we dio? It's like we have worked for the last 2.5 years, full time to build up an audience that actually trusts us. My guess is working on the border to build an audience of some sort. After this 1,000,000,000 audiences really frickin hard, like, what are we chasing? What do we not have access to or the ability to right now? Give them. We have an audience that we shouldn't just be sticking with us for a little while and making sure we're building it to be as good as it can be. Why is the 1,000,000 not satisfying but meeting with Justin satisfy? Honestly,

I think part of it is I enjoy people. I wouldn't say I'm like the most extroverted extroverts like I feed off of people. But I also need time where I'm by myself to decompress. But like I feel most alive when I'm connecting with people at different levels about different things to me, like hitting a 1,000,000 obviously is great. But again, like it wasn't a zero toe 100 thing. We've been working at it for months, whereas, like to me, every time I'm connected with someone new, it's all about expectation. I was expecting that we were going to hit a 1,000,000. You're going? I knew we were gonna hit a 1,000,000. I wasn't expecting that yesterday was gonna be told by Austin.

Hey, we're getting dinner with the founder of Kettle on fire, or I wasn't, you know, expecting that when I was getting interviewed by, you know, del Small business today that the person interviewing me was doing like their side hustle. And they're actually on the global marketing team for them and knows a shit ton about marketing Dell's products. Like I think everything in life is about how things play our relative to expectations because everything is just such a mindset. And so it's like because my expectation is I don't know who I'm gonna be meeting that I meet someone incredible. And I learned something incredible. The gap from expectation to reality is way bigger than like when we hit a 1,000,000. My expectation was that I was gonna happen. Yeah. So how do we take that more

in our day to day or week to week? Yeah, because I think the thing with work sometimes is that when you

know you're gonna do something and it's gonna be hit like that's not as much of a set satisfaction, cause we're expecting it, right? And so I guess, how do you incorporate that more in your day to day or your in your work life? Yeah, I don't know. I think it's a really careful balance because I think it's also a slippery slope to almost like, say, your expectations too low because some people say, say your expectations low. So you're you're always you know, you're always impressed by what you dio I think that's a tough way to go. Also, in my mind, potentially one thing to do is like, think about what are the things that you can do that create the most opportunity for positive and unexpected things toe happen. And maybe I don't know

what that is. I was thinking you could just not expect to know what's gonna happen at work each week, every week to be better than you thought

that would. Absolutely true. The only issue that is I feel like you kind of to turn your brain off to

do that. The one thing I say with satisfaction, I was thinking about it. I don't like the word happiness

at work. I like fulfillment. Yeah, I take

a step back and I'm like, Hey, what's the point of this, right? I just go to like a customer. I'm like this person. I think they're doing amazing stuff. What's the point of what I'm doing right? And it's going to go and see if I can actually help that person grow their business. So when I come back to that, unlike Robert is not going the way I want right now,

Yeah, but we're doing the things that I want that are fulfilling totally this, like the idea of just building a business that will last for a long time. That like is incredibly fulfilling. And the whole idea is like never lose your employees, like don't create, like these profit goals or revenue goals on a yearly basis. Obviously, over the long term, you want to see that it just comes down to what everyone's goals are. Maybe some people what genuinely brings them happiness is the chase for certain revenue numbers or profit numbers can fault anyone for thinking about what motivates them in a certain way. But I think to your point, what motivates us seems to be us helping people. Every time that I hear about morning brew providing value to an individual subscriber like they read and they say it's what got him a job. It's a 65 year old who said they put down the Wall Street Journal for the first time in 30 years. That has kind of been the constant for the last four years is those stories never get old, too? May my emotions index very high with these stories, and they continue to index at the same level like there's not gonna like this desensitization of these people giving me their stories.

Well, I think one

part is we're talking about it is satisfying to help the people you want. This sounds little fucked up, but I am a little desensitized. I love helping the people I want to help. In addition, though, I think I also just self feel like helping myself,

like, how can I help the people I want help in? I create a tool that I can point dick. Uh, you know, that God created tool. You created tool that I'm excited to be using ourselves like we've

been using all these other tools for so long? Totally. Yeah. It's crazy me the idea of building a product where you're not the consumer. Clearly, there are so many examples of businesses where, you know, the founder of the CEO was not their user, but at least for me, like that has been a constant. Why we started. The business is like when I went to work at Morgan Stanley before doing this full time when I was on the train at 5 45 in the morning to the office like I was reading morning brew like to me. There's nothing more satisfying than closing that loop of reading a product that I knew that I like better than whatever came before it. Since you're not in the office, if I call the people in your office task my morning brew, ask about you as a leader and describe what you really think about you, what you think,

that I think that they would say that I am definitely the creative in the bunch. I'm the one who is shooting out idea after idea after idea and that I at least don't have a EEO about throwing out those ideas. Probably ate out of my 10. Ideas are gonna be complete shit. But it's the to where, you know, I see people's eyes light up. I think they would say that I really love people. I think they would say that I am not the most organized human being. I think they would say that I need to learn how to schedule things better. The number of times that I get to the office and I'm running to my next meeting or thinking that I had something in five minutes uptown, which would take 45 minutes to get to to then realize that Oh, actually to now and 1/2 from now going through this roller coaster of emotions around scheduling, which I will say this will be a nice little story is up until two weeks ago, I was spending 3 to 3.5 hours a day on my email, like answering emails and organize my email.

That's over 1/4 of my day, spent an email like emails controlling my life. And so I was always the biggest proponent of doing things yourself and not getting like a virtual assistant chief of staff. Whatever. I finally got the point where is, like, just thinking about and I try to do this with everything now, like, what am I good at? And I just drop down list. What am I really not good at? Or do not enjoy doing John and analyst and making sure anything in that second column. I should not be doing it. It is doing myself and doing every on the team. Disservice. It's like Organization of Calendar managing email like one.

Those are not things that I can add more value than another person, and I'm not good at it. So I ended up bringing someone on toe organize for me, and it's been the biggest blessing. That person is my mom. I literally was like, I need someone I trust to have access to all my information who's really organized who make sure they don't forget shit. So, like my mom is my chief of staff. Now her email is Stacy Whitman, not Stacy Lieberman. So people don't know that my mom is managing my mail and she managed, and it's made my life so much easier. How is ramping up in training? Not easy. So,

like I always wondered, How do you get an assistant to be able to handle your email when they're such high touch things like, There's not initially a pattern to every Emily, you answer. But basically the process was I went through my entire inbox before she got involved, and you start filtering, like making all these labels, whether it's important people, unimportant people, um, hiring content. And I just started filtering people that I had emailed within the past, and the way I would filter it is I would say, filter this person to skip the inbox and be starred and then put them in, say, let's say,

the advertising label. So then what my mom does is every day, instead of going to the inbox, she goes to this Start folder, which basically has 90% of emails. That yet because 90% of emails I get are not a first email with someone and you go through it in the basic rule is, if something is directly addressing, may leave it in there. If something is not directly addressing, may keep a document of basically 10 words spark note of each email. Click the star button so it on stars. It takes it out of the star folder and just put it under the label that they're organized in. And so instead of ending up with 350 emails a day, that's what I normally had its 75. And it's just so much she's cutting through all the noise she is providing what morning brew provides for business, whose she's providing it for,

like giving my time back in life. Yeah, they had a reprimand er now yet that that's honestly, my one concern is just involving a family member in the business I got no, she's gonna do a good job. But like even if she does mess up, it concerns May I haven't had to yet. A light, no ideo. Let's just say I wanted to do in real estate business

and I want to be a real estate educator in Austin. Both of us have different types of email lists. Yeah, what can someone do like if you wanted to create a real estate newsletter like, Yeah, what are the steps that we could do to get our first maybe 1000 subscribers? Yeah, I mean and really concrete. Let's try

to be as concrete US policy on to resent. So I think, honestly, the hardest thing is actually realizing there's a newsletter to be created as in, like there's actually an appetite for it. I think email has become so sexy in the last few years that people just say they want to create email. Now it's the same reason people have said that they want to go into video, which we saw that worked out for. Some people were now like obviously everyone's flocking to podcast, and I think the first thing is actually asking yourself the question of So you want to write a real estate newsletter for Austin, Texas. What is the appetite? Who are you writing for you writing for, like the real estate broker in Texas? Or are you writing for just like the renter who wants to know different properties that they can run in Austin, You need to know who the audience is. You need to know that emails actually the best delivery mechanism for them because you can't just assume email is because everyone has email.

Different audiences consume content in different ways, and then once you know that there is an appetite, then this is to me why was the best thing to be my own consumers? I just wrote for myself. So if you're not writing for yourself, you should surround yourself with people that you are writing for, so you know you're actually giving them something that's gonna want them to come back and they'll actually give a shit about you. How do you know if you're writing something that people want or not? It's a great question for me. The reason I think it was so intuitive is because I was my consumer so I was like, I had been reading The Wall Street Journal for 12 years straight, and then

I was that you get into your bar mitzvah. But I literally, when I was 13 got a description? Yeah, I got, like, checks from my grandparents friends and that I get a subscription was really bond on a subscription. Okay,

so I was helping kids prep for job interviews, and I would ask him, How do you keep up with the business world? And every student would say, I read The Wall Street Journal and they would go on and on like the words coming out of their mouth. It literally felt like their sole was being pulled out of their body while they were saying this to me. This is so interesting that no one externally talks about how shitty the Wall Street Journal is. I had a subscription to it. I like the worst return, so I I enjoy it, but I think it just satisfies a different need. It's not like your round up. It's like if you want analysis and things that you care deeply about. Wall Street Journal is always gonna be there, but so these kids were all saying like I don't love the Wall Street Journal is dense, and my parents told me to do it. And to me,

like this mismatch of these people, 1/2 long careers in business. Yet they don't have content that gets him excited about business. Like I thought there was opportunity there and then again, I at the time I didn't think about it this way. But if you just think about how many media brands there are and how few have actually built in audience, that gives a shit about them. To me, that's the weather Israel opportunity. So it's a use the example for real estate. I think, really, it's really compelling. It's actually a sub brand within business. We think about all the time because of you rest people who care about real estate, what they read on a regular basis as it relates to local or national real estate.

It's all these, like multi decade old trade publications that are written by people that are in their fifties, four people in their fifties, not for people that are gonna run businesses in the next 5 to 10 years. OK, so when you put yours out. How did you get your first hundreds of years? How did you know that people actually wanted that news? There was no website a time. It was a pdf that I attached to an email. I added the 1st 45 people, which were my family members and the kids. I was helping prep for interviews. And then what ended up happening was again. There was no website. I start getting texts from people or emails from people saying,

Hey, I heard about your daily business round up from so and so who subscribed your list? Serve. Can you add me to your list? Serve. And so, basically, for four months straight, I was adding people by email to my Michigan listserv, and it grew to over 1000 people. It was impossible for them to sign up for the product. I honestly, I think, partly got lucky and what I was creating, I didn't realize just how much pent up demand there was for something better. But then the fact that I kept getting hit up by people that I some I knew some I didn't know,

saying, signed me up for this, and the product looked like such shit. I, which I wish like the audience, could see what it looked like, was it? It was horrible. That was enough appetite itself for May. So if I created something, I guess you just put you kept putting it out there, that the thing is that you're consistent and then you've got strong feedback. Well, that's the thing. The great thing about email, I think,

is just the fact that I was putting it out every day, even when I had 200 people on it, because it was like those 200 people were so engaged. I was getting 20 emails a day in response, saying, This is what I like. This is what I don't like. So I think the fact that the feedback loop was so quick I was the consumer of it, and also like all the readers in the beginning were Michigan students. Was everyone like around me in the business school? I just knew that if people like something, they're gonna become your best evangelist and sales person. I knew people clearly had toe like this. If other people were finding out to me, there was so much opportunity cause I just knew how bad the product was, but,

like clearly was just good enough where people were liking it. I wasn't a good writer and was just putting it together by myself. How long did you do about yourself? Or did you write the three months every day? Call it four days a week and just not weakened. So yeah. Yeah. So for someone else

out there who has a newsletter and they started getting responses, they basically Senate family friends, Yankton contacts, favorites on phone, Facebook, things like that. Did you tell him in your newsletter like, hey

for this? Two friends knighted? Nothing. They just It was so good. They wanted to. Yeah, that was thing. There's nothing about forwarding again. It wasn't in the body of the email was literally this attach. Pdf didn't say anything else. And then did you realize right away was the business? You're like, OK, this is gonna be something. I realized that it was something and I didn't even think of it from a business lines. I was just like, this is something that least can grow an audience.

And so that's when I brought on Austin Reef. My co founder over winter break of senior year of college because I was just like at this point, we need to make it a little bit more legitimate needs to live in the email. There needs to be some designed. At first, it wasn't called morning brewers called Market Corner, so we launched in March of 2015 launched it using mail. Chimp had a Michigan senior who is a double major in art and the business school create the original logo, which we've changed since she made the original template, and we started sending it out March of 2015. From a writing standpoint, we just brought on a few college writers who just wanted to get involved in creating better business content, like unpaid Just wanted to do it. What do you streams in him? Market Corner felt limiting cornering The market is like a financial markets. Term just means like if you're really bullish on a trade,

you buy everything, and we didn't want to be just a financial newsletter. We want to be a business newsletter. That was part of it. So if someone else out there, it sounds like the 1st 1000 A lot of it was just it was a grind. It was just pounding the pavement like to get the 1st 1000 It was, I would say, the first call it 300 were just what I was describing of, like the people hitting me up saying, Had meteor listserv. Then we launched in March of 2015. It was just doing every guerrilla tactic imaginable, so we would print out these like, almost like index card shaped pieces of paper that have, like business riddles on them.

It would have, like interview questions and business riddles of you wanted the answer. You had to sign up for morning brew. We also literally we just made, like a two by two square describing what morning brew was and everyday OSS and I would go and put all these flyers down in the like. They call it the Winter Garden, just the main area of the big school Michigan. Every day by three PM, like the Jenners have picked them up. We go the next day, and we literally just kept doing that every single day, as if it was just like a subway car that people were constantly sitting in, and at some point we actually got hit up by the school telling us that we had to stop and were loitering and were horrible people. So we did stop the way I always think about, you know, marketing our product is we know who our audience is.

How do we find the hubs that provide us the most efficient vehicle to get in front of all those spokes on DSO, as I thought about it is like, Who is our reader? It's like the business forward college student, the one who wants to go into consulting or tech or finance. So I thought about what are the best places to find these people get into the classes of business school professors, get into business fraternities or get into business clubs and able to speak to them. So, Austin, I literally spoke to 50 plus classes and clubs within a two month period where we just go up in front of room. Explaining Morning brew was explain why we're solving a problem. Basically, say how it is a no brainer since it's free. Free to sign up, you could always unsubscribe. We pass around a sheet of paper,

have people write down their email address and then we go home and type one in each one in individually reason. We had them do it on papers we just found. When we set into class, go to morning brew dot com on your laptop way. Fewer people did it just because, like, obviously the physical gap of signing up with so much lower when you have to just write something on a piece of paper where someone once that did not work in those early times we started doing cross promotions early on with other email newsletters, and that was the first sign toss of Just like how important, just quality of audiences because there are all these different newsletters that we were. Somehow we were at 2000 readers, and we're like, Let's try to leapfrog up and work with the newsletter that has 10,000 meters 15,000 readers somehow get them to agree to do across promo and we do across promo, and we would get them more subscribers because, like clearly they're open rate or their audiences was not as engaged. That was one thing very early. We realized it's like we started to trying to do all these partnerships.

One thing I would say is I'm all about like partnerships, but so few partnerships actually work out, actually end up being worth your time. Partnerships aren't that scalable, and they take a lot of time to set up. So you have to get really good at just being judicious about who are the people that actually you can provide some sort of like equal value to because we messed that up a lot in the beginning. Like, for example, we tried to get the career services like department at Michigan to spread morning for around everywhere. Worst idea humanly possible, because to get a school to start promoting something is as difficult as like telling a financial services firm you want to write their business newsletter, and that would end up taking 15 years because compliance is the fastest growing division in a bank. And so, like, the number of hoops you have to jump through is crazy. The other thing is one of our early growth strategies was our campus ambassador program,

which ended up doing really well for us. But the first year we did it, the approach we took was the quality approach as, and we didn't try to like open the floodgates and let 50 to 100 conscience be our ambassadors. We hand selected ambassadors from like a pool of 100 resumes did like two or three rounds of interviews. Got intense, like 12 and we selected 12 ambassadors. That was the worst thing we could have ever done. These 12 that we picked, we thought like I was describing the hub and spoke model before we thought these people were hubs in their grades, like business club presidents, you know, business for attorney presidents. But it's like the thing that made them perfect also made them the worst possible people to be our ambassadors because these were the people that were so incredibly motivated. They involved themselves in so many things academically and extracurricular. Lee and cultures generally don't know how not spread themselves too thin.

And if they're really smart, these kids just had so many different commitments. They didn't know how to commit themselves to the right number of things. They're all incredibly impressive, but didn't have time for us. And then what did you incentivize? And then how do you fix that? Because I think that I'm still about 30 40% your growth. No, it's not that much anymore. Well, percentage. So our referral program is 25% of our list. The college Ambassador program now is away. Smaller piece once we start doing paid acquisition, but referrals are still a huge component.

It's not rocket science. It's at three referrals. You get access to Morning Bruce Sunday edition Light roast, five referrals. You get our stickers. 10 referrals. You get an invite to our Facebook group, which is like, really quality discussion with other business people. 15. You get a phone wallet now, a double pocket. We should do single pocket 25 morning brew T shirt. 50 morning brew crew. Next 75 Morning brew mug. How much have you spent on your phone for him?

It's in the tens of thousands, but not six figures. I mean, if you just look at the the acquisition cost forever referral. It's negligible. And maybe in your current says you're over a 1,000,000 now. Maybe can you break out? We jumped ahead a little bit too fast, but I am cursed like break out where that 1,000,000 came from. Your other people out there is a you know, I think in the beginning. It sounds like the beginning tactic is most importantly make something people want. You know, people like I don't markets, like, makes them people. Exactly. I don't know how able to sell her market something that I didn't

truly believe in. Well, I think the second thing besides the hub and spoke model that you said or, like, hub and release or yeah, it and expand. I think that what you did, which is interesting, is you targeted your audience.

Really? Well, I think consumer, we're working towards that. I think a lot of businesses don't do that. So the marketing is a lot harder. Were you right now with a 1,000,000? Maybe break out where that came from? Yes. So 250,000 of it was the referral program. Another 15% of it was literally direct traffic toe website. So we have horrible ASIO. So it's all just word of mouth like hey, go check out more people typing in morning brew dot com. Then the other 60% was paid acquisition of some sort 60% yet. Oh, wow.

Yeah. Okay. I wasn't expecting that. No. So we do. You have only started that, like two years ago, we start doing paid acquisition called March of 2018. Now, like it ramped up pretty quickly just because we saw the acquisition costs were getting on Facebook and Instagram. We measure acquisition based on the cost of a high quality subscriber. The way we define that is basically someone who opens five out of the 1st 10 newsletters. So that's how our team evaluates. Like, what is the cost of that person? Do you say they're active at that?

Five or 10 opens. So we say that they're active after the 10 Opens, if they've opened at least five. But we also have turning practices where if you don't open four weeks straight, you get a reengagement email where it says if you don't push this button, basically, we're gonna turn you from the list, okay? Yes. So paid acquisition has been a really big thing, cause I mean, you spent over a 1,000,000 bucks so far. Nice, nice. A lot of points are the points guys taking on his jet. Ah,

a lot. A lot of points yet which Austin? I didn't really know anything about points, but then we quickly had to learn about points once we accumulated a lot of points. But no, that was There's a whole another discussion. So if I was starting out, I want to do some had stuff that sounds like 6% adds 25% referrals and then would mouth. And you could also bucket like earned media and non paid cross promotion. They're still doing giveaways and stuff like that. Also, the giveaways. I actually bucket interviewer for a program. The Giveaways air ridiculous, like we've talked about sweepstakes before. We don't do sweepstakes anymore.

Is the number of new subscribers we generate from our own giveaways is more than you would get from a sweepstake, and the quality is significantly better. It's like we did a two day Mac book giveaway gave to Matt Books away a day, one to someone who referred someone and then the other to the person that they referred on. These mackerel giveaways will grow by mid five figures in terms of number of new subscribers and just the quality of those people. Relative Teoh Sweepstakes, where you're partnering with four other companies. Well, let's stick on that for to say, how do you get them activated cause a lot of times people saying fuck you at okay, door to calmer Gmail. Whatever right when they sign up, how do you activate them? So you only get referral credit when someone double ops in. Okay, So we've had people try to game the system before where they literally create all these burner emails,

and they double often toe all of them. But like we see that behavior and we just shut them down. But the amount of work it takes someone to do that it's now very low, like double opt in, solved a lot of problems. Interesting. Also definitely again brought down some of our conversion rate for people who they subscribe through a referral. And for whatever reason, the double often you mail either went to their spam where they forgot about it and then didn't opt in. That's a risk we're

paying that some

of the stuff we're building. So what? You guys haven't referrals and the give away stuff we're building into super comp so everybody can do No, it's awesome. Everything we're talking about just comes down to quality of product an audience, because again, this would not work. If it wasn't a good product where people didn't like it, I guess. How did you recognize to do ads? You know, how do you recognize that? To actually start doing paid acquisition. Just try it out. And we knew that the margin on an email businesses so incredibly high. Once we started monetizing, it was a very simple model.

It was okay, we're gonna keep putting out a great product. Every day we get some more people finding out, and then we just have to get really good at storytelling. This brand Teoh explain to you know, Microsoft or to discover why you should pay to get in front this audience the way that we charge these advertisers based on opens of the newsletter. So it just incentivize does to get quality people. And so then we're just like, how do we amplify getting quality? Subscribers used the margin from our ad dollars. We're getting just pump it back in, gets more ad dollars and just gets the fly will going. And so if I'm starting

out today, and I have my real estate thing in Austin reading it and I have, you know, brokers paying me to do

it, how do I get started on heads and honestly, this is such a relevant question because we just launched a new newsletter. So we're vertical izing the business, and we launched our emerging technology newsletter this week. So it's like literally back to day one of thinking about how do we scale a completely new vertical? Obviously, we have this 1,000,000 person audience that allows us to grow it. We're still thinking about a lot of these things. Okay, making the assumption that you know exactly what the real estate enthusiast in Austin wants. You created great product for them. They're spreading through word of mouth. Then I think you after is ask yourself Who is the person that really, really, really wants to get in front of who you know your reader is. Find the person who's price in elasticity is so high because they need to get in front.

That person was more your Facebook ad buying special. So you're saying for the ad buying Okay, yes. So for us again, like we started very general with it, where the audience waas called 18 to 45 it was someone who at all marks some interest in business. We haven't started doing paid acquisition for the emerging tech newsletter, which is a new one we launched. I think that will be really interesting. We were trying to figure out if it's gonna be more expensive or less expensive to acquire subscriber. I don't know the answer, cause I think my initial reaction is Oh, it's gonna be more expensive because it's just a smaller pie. But then the other part of me is like it actually be less expensive because you could just make your ad creative, like, just really I catching whether it be around Ellen stuff for stuff like that.

But then I think the question becomes, What is the quality gonna be off that subscriber? Because this is just more niche, maybe water. Some of the first things I should do for had buying if I want to spend my audience base. So the 1st 1 we did was just literally United States 18 toe 40 something and had showed some interest in business. That was literally it. In the beginning, it actually what ended up happening was it started as male and female, and we ended up finding that female subscribers were significantly more expensive than male subscribers, like three acts. So there's a period of time we were only acquiring male subscribers because it was so much cheaper. But our whole thing is like we didn't want to have a completely skewed audience. And so now you know, our audience is 55% 45% male female. But that was a tweak we had to make early on because it was so much more expensive.

Basically, we made our funnel as large as humanly possible in the beginning and the creative that worked for us. There were two creatives. One was attacks, message, conversation where is literally like a friend, texting a friend like a screenshot of an iPhone screen, saying like, Yo, how did you learn that insane stuff about business? You were telling me about the other way cool, and the front would respond back that creative did incredibly well for about four months, and then it kind of just died out. Then we also had a few craters, was literally just like, honestly,

like a good looking person reading something on their phone, and there was some headline about morning burrow under it. Generally, we found, like things that feel closest to a human behavior or to a human natural have worked well. Text, message, conversation and good looking people was also something that you'd probably see on Facebook. I'd see my friend doing something. I'd see a text, exactly something it feels the most native inherently. It's like not something that sticks out like a sore thumb. I like that. So

one thing you are going on and I think this is a good way for people who have smaller businesses or starting out with newsletters. And they want to

make money from the last two things. Number one. So what was the first money you guys actually made? Hasn't like the dollar amount or what was it both. So it was an ad deal with the University of Virginia, and they paid us like 700 bucks. Teoh advertise in the newsletter one day. And did you approach them? Or they ask you? We approach them so it actually happened. And the way we've gotten ad deals, there been so many different ways inbound, outbound like absurd outreach. This one was unlinked in. I was targeted by a sponsored, linked and message from someone in the admissions department at the University of Virginia for one of their master's program. So I literally just hit up that person on LinkedIn and said,

Hey, I saw your doing this I'm assuming linked in CPS are pretty high. This is what morning brews up to would love to work with you guys. And then we had the first response ago. It was really good. Yeah, and for schools Generally, we've become too expensive for a lot of schools. That said, like Michigan recently ran with us. Wolf College recently ran with us. They both saw a ton of success. I mean, they're metric for success is just how many qualified leads do they get for people applying to programs? Obviously V cost they're willing to pay for a qualified lead is extremely high, given the cost of tuition.

Yeah, and so it went really well for University of Virginia. They worked with us for the next, like, 3/4. At some point, we did become too expensive for them. We're like their whole budget for like, the masters of called accounting program. They would be spending it on just us, and that would be their entire budget, because washed college by the way, Number one College. This podcast sponsored by Wash. College if you're looking to get a degree and knitting does so elitist to me. So I think one thing I want to just highlight from you about how you made money,

you looked at someone spending money already, and yet you could solve their problem better than what they're currently doing. So other ways of doing that. Look at Facebook ads sponsored Instagram Pose linked Impose Google and email newsletters. Other

email newsletters. Responsive. If you're trying to do a conference, look who's sponsoring other conferences. And I thought that smart that you're looking for people already spending

money and you know you can help them At the end of the day, it's like, if you think about us, were 13 person media startup people always wonder, like, How did you get these massive deals? Morgan Stanley access investing, Microsoft Dropbox like these huge companies, and it's I think we're just very efficient about getting in touch with people who have already qualified themselves. Either qualified themselves because they're huge fans of morning brew or qualified themselves because we know they're spending on email newsletters. It's like we just know every email newsletter, what partners they're working with. We also just know, like of our readers who are the marketers in our audience. We make sure to, like, reach out to people that we think are either senior decision makers or marketers that companies to see if they'd like to work together.

Inbound is huge for us. Like if I look by dollar spent historically on morning brew out of our top 54 of them were inbound. So as people have grown, how have you guys adjusted your business strategy? Honestly, what we've found is just at some point, we're gonna be too expensive. Marketers don't actually want to spend, you know, $50,000 in one day on one channel and we're at the point now where we are becoming too expensive for people. Just answer the first question like how we charge we charge based on unique opens of the newsletter Sorrow. Whole pitches like it just more efficiently. Spend your money where you know, every dollars going toward someone who could be reading your ad versus charging a flat fee or CPM. You know, at this point when people are spending 25,000 plus dollars a day.

It's advertised in our main newsletter spot and $15,000 plus a day in our like lower spot, especially for marketers that want to just test and learn even huge companies. And their test and learn budget is like $10,000. What we've started have to do is we split our list now, and we sell segmented parts of our list to allow people to test the list. The one downside of that is you just need a bigger sales team as you start doing that because that you've doubled your inventory. So it's just being really judicious about not having your first advertised in the newsletter be like the bottleneck to not allow someone in because it's simply too expensive but also have any balance of not segmenting every single days list because we literally have to double our sales team. And how biggest sell Sina three people? Is it outbound or inbound? I would say 75% of what they're doing is outbound. We get a ton of inbound interest, but most of it is honestly pretty trashy in the sense of like we'll get 15 to 20 inbound emails, a day. 2 to 3 of them are actually think interesting people to work with. Do you send in your competitors this trashy

people? It's a great yeah, Thanks for the tip. One thing I was trying to think about is that you guys started a new vertical emergent trend thing. How did you think about it? Strategically? I mean, there's probably how many people business wise in America that should be read more than you argue. Like, Why not just go crazy deeper on that, exposing

yourself? Generally, it's underscores that your guys stop process guys went through deciding. I think there's a few things I think one Waas, The way we're thinking about the business is at some point our core newsletter, irrespective of how large against is gonna tap out at certain revenue like we're gonna end up having go from charging on. Unique opens the newsletter to a fixed fee because view charge based on unique opens. We'll get to a point where someone has to pay $75,000 a day. Someone simply won't be able to do that. And so, even if say, our total audience could get to seven million, we know we're not gonna seven x Our revenue from one million. That's not gonna happen. So one is that we know there's a ceiling. The other is 2018 is the year of just like diversifying our content for readers like thing about audience development but also diversifying under the advertising bucket. Like I think,

everyone believes that not only do people think advertising is dead, but also people believe that if you're just an ad based business, you are not diversified at all. And I think there's so many different types of advertising that we're trying to get interest from a different type of advertiser. Like if you look at morning brews advertisers, 80% of them are performance marketers. A performance marketer is different from a brand marketers different from affiliate marketer, and I think the way that they would react with their marketing budget in recessionary times is very different. And so one of the reasons we launched say, let's use emerging tech and in general, vertical izing the businesses A. It leans on the one thing that we're good at, there's only one thing we're good at. As a business, it is creating great emails, scaling great emails and monetizing them.

We really don't know anything else. NARAL thing is, if we want to continue to be a profitable business, that doesn't have to raise a lot of money. We need to lean on what we're good at. That's why we're staying with email. The other is that we take up five minutes of real estate in someone's morning routine. We go a mile wide and an inch deep, and everyone asks us, Why can't you go deeper on the topics we care most about? Some wants to learn more about Tesla in a Nilan story we covered. They click out in their on CNBC or something else. Their whole thing is, why can't we read about it in the brew? And the other is the type of marketer we're talking Teoh for. These industry newsletters is very different.

We're not charging on a CPM not charging a CPV. It is just a flat fee. It is not something that you're back into a C. P. A. And you're comparing to Facebook. This is changing the brand perception of the perfect audience within the millennial business demographic within that vertical, and you're paying up for it. So I think to get those people in the conversation is very productive as well. How much of you diversified attention? Because now it is. The money is an attention. You know, back in 2000 was like eyeballs, eyeballs. I've also now it seems like it is actually influential in them able to move revenue around.

How much have you justified in terms of grown instagram or YouTube or your blogger A CEO? Not a ton. I think One of the things that we're thinking a lot about is there cern other channels where we think makes a lot of sense to develop audience. Instagram, I think, makes a ton of sense, SCL. We're still trying to decide Reason that were kind of hooked up on S E O is to be competitive in business and business news. Worried is gonna be really difficult. Something we think about a lot attention is really important. But I think one step further than attention is trust and vets holding is like, How can we get quality attention? People actually trust us. So what I never want to feel like is that we're building out instagram for morning brew because we think that advertisers need to be sold. Instagram, in addition to our core newsletter,

to agree to an ideal. I want us going into interim because we believe, like our reader is spending 12 o'clock toe one oclock on instagram we can give them business lifestyle content will actually like and not hate. That's why I want to go into it. So the short answer is we're gonna keep building out these verticals. Michael is not for everyone to be subscribed to every single newsletter. It's not possible, but my goal is maybe or subscribe to the core newsletter and you know, the real estate newsletter because your real estate professional who also needs to be abreast to what's going on generally, we're definitely put emphasis on growing out instagram because I think it makes a ton of sense for how our audience, our readers consuming content throughout their day, would have you guys said no to because a five minute daily podcast do you literally reading off your newsletter coming makes a lot of so I think one thing to that is our concern is about just cannibalizing the core newsletter. If you have a five minute daily read, you don't need to open the newsletter, so it kind of cannibalizes the advances away. Or we'll just have to learn how to sell ads.

And that would just take time and energy and resource. So someone out there should just read your newsletter and call it the daily cough. There there's someone who literally does that every day on Instagram. He does like the highlights of the brew on Instagram Live every day. The other worry I have about podcast is I think there's a lot of value and podcast, but I think it comes down to the same thing we're talking about before, Which is why does it make sense for the audience? Why is this the best channel delivery to deliver that story to the audience? I think a lot of people are going to podcast just because they hear other people are so for us. I think one we just need to make sure we justify that. The second is to make sure, like the dollars support the business and are worth diverting attention at all. And I think one of the concerns we have is as we just think about scaling the business. If you look at potentially what this podcast would bring in relative to the core product. It's not even gonna move the needle. I also worry about depth of advertisers in podcast.

I worry that there's a number of heavily venture backed businesses that pump a ton of money into podcast, but there isn't all that much depth in terms of advertising. There's a huge long tail of companies doing, and I just worry that of a few companies decide to change tragedy, whether it be Zip recruiter or squarespace or blue apron, that it makes it a lot harder. At the end of the day, there's only a few big scale podcasters and podcast businesses have actually been incredibly profitable. And then one other stuff he said no to anything monetization. Yeah, what one is we used to dio advertorial, which was just like such a grab for money and for audience growth. For example, hint. Water was doing this for a while. Have 1/3 party content company,

right? A great profile on hints founder of this story, and then literally just posted, and they pump millions of dollars into boosting that post, getting traffic through it, and then the conversion rates they were seeing on those posts were incredible. So for them, the acquisition costs were so low we ended up doing that a few times. But at the end of day, like as we thought back to it when we weren't seeing great subscriber growth to morning brew, even though the content lived on our site, the conversion rate was horrible. And the other thing is just like it added no value to the reader, like when we just stepped back and said, OK, how is this making our readers life any better?

It wasn't It was just a complete grab for someone paying a flat fee for an advertorial and someone fueling a lot of traffic to our website that never actually end up being converted. So we did a few of those and then we're just like this makes no sense interesting. I like the guy said, No stuff, anything that's really hard in business. It's easy to see us to everything and like figure out what you actually stand for. The other thing I would say is we're asked about video all of the time, were asked to create like a morning brew video show constantly. It's not something I would say we will never dio. I just think video is really difficult. I think videos really difficult just from a human behavior perspective. Like when I think about people in our demographic, What sort of video? There watching? I think it's very bar belled. I think you have the,

like, incredibly high production value video like HBO Go Netflix, etcetera. Then you have, like the really shitty viral videos like Hands and pan stuff and like you cats. But the issue is is like on the hands and pan stuff and cute cat side. You never remember the brand. You just remember the content of it. Brand recognition is so incredibly low on the high production value side. We're not about to go create game of Thrones anytime soon, and what I try to think about is okay. Morning brews to create video. We want to be somewhere in the middle. I am always very attracted to the idea of creating habit for any product we create. How could we create a habit at a video? And so I try to,

like, at least just be, you know, smart about the decision. I try. Think who else has created video that sits somewhere in the middle in terms of production value and has become habit for people that are millennials air like in their twenties. And there aren't that many examples of it like there's barstool, but I think barstools absolutely crushed it. But outside of that, there aren't a whole lot of examples and sort of me I worry about, like one you can do video at a pretty low cost to me. I have no proof of concept that people will actually tune into a video every single day for X number of minutes. Also, when I look at video, honestly, the best videos created by personal brands like that have actually been habits,

whether it be Gary V or whether it be Noah Kagan or whether it be whoever it is, it's all personal branding. So I think that plays into another thing about as we vertical eyes, this business, how we think about personal brands. That's actually where I see more opportunity for potentially doing things in podcasts or video. Yeah, yeah, I guess one thing I was curious, as you were talking about Barcelona supports, like, who are you jealous off like whose business very envious of. I don't think I would take anyone's business over ours right now. But if you were to tell me, okay, you have to stop doing morning.

But right now, where would you go? I think What Axios? His building is incredible. I think the athletic is really interesting to me. It's a has to be just like an absolute roller coaster there, literally taking down like all of local sports coverage around the country and just bring all this talent in house because their business model subscription there now incentivized in a really good way, which is just a great the best content humanly possible. It's no longer about page views, which I think is amazing, but with access, I think it's, you know, they have the playbook from Politico. They're literally just doing it over of creating great vertical eyes, newsletters,

the best in class talent. And then my guess is, at some point they're gonna release a B two B product that some sort of deep analysis subscription product for businesses that cost tens of thousands of dollars a year, and it's gonna be a really solid business. How many days of you has been sending a dealing newsletter. Austin. I have been full time for Call it 2.5 years, but we've been sending out the daily newsletter every single day since March of 2015. For you, it's bitterly for you were, Yeah, yes. So what is that? 714 100 days? 1400 straight days? Because

I think one thing I have to remind myself, and I think people out there, people who are in day jobs who are inside hustles people in there cos whether they want to do newsletter, any type of business.

And I think, what, Weaken him with this, which is just do it every day for 1400 days and then you can have a sizable company. Totally. I think that's the biggest thing is people expect its again. It all comes back to expectation. That's what have to love so much what you're doing and feel so passionate about the value you're providing. Because if you're expecting something to happen overnight or even over a year, you're setting your expectations wrong way. We've literally been nonstop at this the last four years. I've not gone a day in the last four years. I haven't thought about this. That's the mentality of to have with any business. I think.

Ah, well, that's a wrap. I hoped you liked the episode. If you did, go check out Alex at morning brew dot com. Next text. A friend You love them? Yo, dog, let's play ping pong together before you go. Let me know what you thought of the episode by sending me an email at podcast at okay door dot com. Also remember to go check out the Sumo ride. You haven't done it yet. Sumo reid dot com Come party ride bikes and contribute to a fund cause Final special thanks to Jason had podcast tech dot com. As always for making these pockets, I don't think all of you all realized how much work Jason puts in and the team puts into.

Making these episodes is not just we have a chat that goes, is about 10 hours to edit these episodes. So go get Jason some Lovett podcast tech dot com and thank you for everything you do. Jason and David Kelley at the Door team. Plus you, Dean, I see you, Dean Young kicking some ass now doing a lot of our social media stuff. Thank you so much, man.