Hey everyone, I've got some big, big, big exciting news. My new book, eight Rules of Love how to find it. Keep it and let it go is available for preorder right now. And if you head over to Eight Rules of Love dot com, you can be the first to preorder it for when it releases next year. I want to thank you all for the amazing support I received for thinking like a monk and for the last two, two years I've been pouring my heart my mind all my energy and intention into this book and I can't wait for you to read it inside this book. I talk about everything from breakup to conflict to dating on apps, to figuring out whether someone's ghosting you, what the red flags are to look out for. I really believe this book is gonna be a game changer for so many. I know so many of you have been asking me questions about love and relationships and dating and I put all my insights inside this book. We've also got something really exciting for all of you.

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We don't ever feel like we're enough. The other thing I think that happened in my life, which is significant is that I joined a 12 step program 18 years ago to get sober and I got a ton of practice talking about my shortcoming, my failures, my fears and it's a unique experience because it was met always with understanding no judgment, compassion, unity and I don't know how you could get those hours of practice without that.

Hey everyone welcome back to this very untraditional on purpose podcast that has already been taping for maybe 15 minutes of a very general conversation that Dax and I have been having as you already know, our amazing guest today is none other than Dax Shepard, actor, comedian, writer and director and of course podcast host of one of my favorite podcast armchair expert. He's known for his appearance in films like without a paddle or a space adventure employee of the month and many, many more. And Dax also portrayed Crosby Braverman in the NBC comedy drama series, parenthood from 2010 to 2015. He also played luke Matthews in the netflix show, the ranch co starred in A. B. C's Bless this mess and acted in the MTV reality series Punk that I grew up on and since 2018 Dax has hosted the award winning podcast show Armchair expert where he interviewed celebrities, journalists and academics about the messiness of being human if you don't already listen to him, make sure you go and listen to armchair expert and Dax. And I got into a very random instagram comment conversation, which led to a bit of DM which led to us connecting in this way.

So Dax, welcome to the episode and I'm genuinely a fan and admirer excited to connect, As I said, christian has been so gracious and kind to me before, it's wonderful to connect all the dots, thank you for being here.

Oh, it's my pleasure. Um that um that intro was exhausting. I felt for you.

I was excited by, I love, I love diving into people's past and experiences and kind of connecting the dots because I think it's really easy to, as you know, look at someone and think, oh yeah, well they've always been this way or they've always had it all together and then you look at the date that someone started and you go, oh wow, they've been doing this for a long time, you know, and I think that that's always a, it's a beautiful thing.

I actually think, I think it's weirdest for the person, you know, like when I'm I'm now I just had someone an hour ago I interviewed mandy moore and we got to talking about the fact that she had been on punked and then we started doing the math. I was like, wow, that was 18 years ago, I said if we had had a child that night that we would be sending them off to college, that's kind of mind blowing and aging is such a peculiar phenomena to begin with. And the fact that if you're an actor or whatever, you have some resume that's publicly known, It's kind of documented the timeline. So it's like an upside of that, which is cool and there's a downside to it of course, but I have a very good memory, but I have a very terrible memory for dates. So I can basically tell you if things happened before 93 from high school before after 2000 and then maybe to my kids were born, there's probably a gap between 2000 and 2013 where I don't know, it could have been anywhere in that

zone. Yeah, I I love hearing. That actually makes me feel a lot better because I have a friend that I connect with regularly, I went to high school with him and we actually went to the same college. So we were together from 11 to 21 he will remind me of like, do you remember this person? I'll be like, oh my gosh, I've completely forgot or like, do you remember we did this ridiculous thing together. And it's weird because 11 to 21

of such formative

years you'd think I would remember them, but those are some of the ones that I've completely wiped off my memory. So

and what's your theory on why that has happened?

I I mean my theory is I that was preceding the time that I spent living as a monk for three years

and

I really believe that a lot of my re wiring of my brain and habits during my time as a monk Uh erased certain memories that were no longer useful in the new identity and new mindsets that I was creating and that wasn't conscious. It was so unconscious and unintentional. But that is the only theory I have. What about for you? Why is that 93 and in the 2000 to 2013

mark, what's your theory? Well, now I can tell you everything that happened. I just can't tell you what years

they happened

necessarily what predated the other thing. It's kind of more of a chronological issue. But I do have all the memories now, I'll tell you a very crazy example. So I'm driving in the car one day and I don't know why I think this, maybe I see a billboard or something. Who knows? But I just started thinking of Whoopi Goldberg and I think uh huh I love Whoopi Goldberg. I just love her. I've always loved her. She has always seemed so certain of who she was and blah blah and I'm just kind of, I don't know. Ruminating on how much I I like her or admire and then I had this kind of snapshot memory of hugging her and then I thought well, hmm I've never met her. I don't know how I would have hugged her and now I've become obsessed with like is that an imagination that I had, you know, and then I'm thinking about it for so long, a couple hours that eventually I put into Youtube dax Shepard, Whoopi Goldberg and by God, I've been on the view three

times

and this is not shade to the view I enamored with that, I think that's an incredible thing to have gotten to do, but I just had to confront. So my first thought was like, oh, that's very scary. But anyways, I was like, oh right, I was on the view and I hugged her afterwards and I got to tell her that I really respect her, but I wanted to kind of figure out how that had happened that would be inconceivable to me at 12 years old, if you said, hey, you're gonna be on the show one day and you're gonna forget you're on that show. And so then I was feeling bad about myself, you know, So I was getting critical,

this must be some failing. But then I just kind of thought, man, when you do press people who aren't in show business, they don't know like if I go to new york to promote parenthood. Um my day is I started the Today show, then I go to a second version of the Today show, I do five print media things. I end up doing the view and maybe Rachel Ray and so all these other daytime shows and then it goes into a nighttime talk show, I'll be on, you know of you name it, Seth Meyers and if you've done that, if you've been on enough shows and you've gone to new york to do that, you know, it's just, it's a capacity issue.

I have to imagine, you know, if there's, I'm only, you know, have a finite memory and you know, you kind of dump some of those appearances I guess. But I wanted of course to find something wrong with me and now I've come to peace with just like, yeah, I know it's not like I'm a hotshot. I'm not arrogant. I don't think I'm, I'm too cool for the view. That's not it. It's just a capacity issue.

Yeah, it's a capacity issue. And like you said, a repetition issue. If you're doing something repeatedly, you're not going to remember it the seventh time or the third time you do it. And

that's key.

Yeah.

My first time on the Today show, I could tell you every

moment of it,

you know, because if it's been recorded and then not any of the subsequent

ones probably. Yeah, that's that's a really good way of putting it. I think what's fascinating about memory though, seeing as we've gone there now is so many of our memories are also based on pictures that we saw of ourselves as Children. So what I've realized is when you can see yourself in a memory, that's not a memory it's a picture because your view as a memory would be not looking at yourself

great way to delineate that. But I'll add to the confusion. For me personally, it's like if I'm on Letterman, I there is a monitor by the camera so I actually can see me on Letterman while I'm on Letterman. So then again now for me to unravel whether I remember the appearance that I saw on tv or my experience there, I don't know, who knows.

That's the worst case of inception. There probably is. So yeah, that that

sounds almost like a mirror with a mirror behind you. Yeah,

yeah. I often get fascinated by that memory point though that you know how many of those experiences that I remember of childhood were actually me living them or my parents showed me video or you know my parents showed me a picture of myself and I think about that often with how I'm someone that doesn't, despite my life being on social media and certain parts documented. I'm actually not good at getting my phone out and grabbing pictures and it's it's not a part of my daily, I don't really walk around my phone out so much and then I but I often also asked that well if I didn't, if I haven't taken a picture, do I actually even remember it that well if it wasn't like a really moving dynamic experience. I mean when you think about memories, what are your like, I guess what are your favorite some of your favorite memories personally or professionally that stay strong that you feel are so crystal clear that you could feel them again.

I hate to admit this, but I've come to uh understand that the memories that support what I think my identity

is.

It's interesting that you even brought up the monk thing and how you kind of lost an identity and in order to do that, you almost had to lose the memories, which makes sense to me because you're like, you've lost the plot points that led to your conclusion that you were jay shetty, whatever you thought you were at that point, and I have been in a business where uh and and this isn't unique to me, but but it a little bit, it is only because I acted and I also wrote, I was employed as a writer as much as an actor and then also I directed for a few years, so I was always kind of juggling like, oh, am I an actor? I'm no, I'm a writer, it's not working out as an actor, I'm a writer and then, oh my God,

I'm a writer, director, that's what I am. And so and then as those things either failed or succeeded, I'd have that identity a little longer and then all of a sudden I was a podcaster and now I'm considering a an identity now, of course it's all work related. But now my identity is like uh me weirdly, you know, I have a show, I have a podcast where it's just me and as I do that longer, I'm kinda less interested in all the other identities I had. And then of course, the crowning jewel of identities for me is a father. So this sunday, it'll be nine years that I'm a dad. And then that kind of just overtook all the other ones gracefully and thankfully where that one feels like bedrock,

you know, that feels like son or sibling whatever. And, and I and I had no clue how much I needed that because I wasn't willing to go be a monk for three years to find out who I actually was without any of these connections. So yeah, it was just a great relief to have something that I would define myself around other than work, which is fickle and good and bad and all those many things. But so, so for memories, I'm probably inclined to tell you all the steps that led to me getting on punked or all the steps that led to me being a class clown or, you know, uh and then even weirder than all this because you, we also touched on your life making sense now at this point, I have the ultimate moment of that while hosting Top Gear, which I've done for the last two years where my other side hustle was always motorsport, that's all I really ever want. I just, if I could have been a race car driver, that would have been

it. So

I've spent all this time at race tracks and racing and riding motorcycles and doing all this stuff and there was just a moment shooting one particular episode of Top Gear where I drifted this dodge Hellcat around a dirt oval track in Arizona all day long, dead sideways, it was a blast and I left and I thought my God, it all makes sense. Like I went into improv, the show's not scripted, I was all I want to do is drive fast and crazy and I wanted to be in camera and by God, now at this vantage point then 46 I was like, oh, it all makes sense, but certainly it never made sense in route to their, that

that was great. I mean that's what podcasts are for, right? So that that was a great, yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, I, I find that fascinating to, and what I really appreciated where you started off was and it was actually very reassuring for me, which I appreciated was I, I kind of went that too, I went through being a student and a South asian person in England who had certain aspirations to then living as a monk and then to leave being a monk, which has a very clear identity shift and then being like, well I'm a monk, and then I went back into the world of corporate to pay the bills and,

and survive and in management. Um and and then now in media where we do so much in media and and it's almost like I, I feel like for a long time I was juggling those two is like, well I'm married now too and they all seem to be ems as well, like married monk, media management and I go, you know which one am I? And it was the same thing as you said that I, I really feel now I'm at a point where I've just accepted that I really enjoyed the paradoxical experience of my life and I appreciate and acknowledge each part of those experiences equally. I'm really grateful that I got to have my time in the monastery and what I love from there, which is foundational to the work I do today, but at the same time, I love the fact that now I'm in media and I get to apply it in a completely different direction and I love being married, I really enjoy the learning process of what that looks like and then the management part has been so useful from a professional standpoint and it's like you said you get to being you and I guess my question is like how long did it take you or what was some of the inner workings of learning to accept and give yourself the permission to be All of them. None of them. Some of them a part of them.

Because I still feel we live in an industry where or not even an industry, we live in a world where it's like, well, what do you do? And it's your job title. And I was saying to my, I was saying to my pr team the other day, I was like, I would be so much happier if they just put my mission as my lower third and not my title, because my title doesn't really say much about who I really am. And so does that make sense?

It does. And in fact, I'm always a little curious how embracing people are of a title that they also know millions of other people have as a title. So what is it now granted? I just said I'm a father, which is, you know, whatever a third of the country, but I'll give you the one that is a pet peeve of. Mine is like, people on their social media will say liberal or conservative democrat or republican. And my, I guess I'm just, I'm too insatiably in search of being unique for that to be satisfying for me. Like what could it say about me if, if all I've done is is carved 300 million people into two groups. It'd be no different than writing mail.

Like who am I? I'm male and what does that mean? You know anything where half of the country can fit into it. I don't know why that's of interest in describing yourself, but me embracing me, I threw insecurity of course, but but through insecurity I chose a very specific route through junior high high school, which was, I'm punk rock, I'm a skateboarder, I'm a snowboarder on punk rock. Uh and again, stemming from insecurity, which is, I couldn't, I didn't think I could pull off the other thing.

Like I was looking at everyone in there, I didn't have colic so they could have this perfect middle part. I couldn't do it. Their parents could afford Jordan's mind, couldn't, so I couldn't do that. And this was a kind of a weird, I know what it read as it reads this confidence, which is great because I actually kind of backed myself into being confident. So I was, you know, mohawk, crazy close combat boots because I wanted to send a message like I'm not playing that game so you can't evaluate me by those rules. That was what the insecurity part was. And then I got like positive reinforcement for that

and that

kind of, you know, that's remained a little bit in me that when I wrote it didn't take me any time to find my voice. I just, I wrote as if no one was ever going to read it and if they did read it and didn't like it? I didn't care. Acting was different because I certainly was like I had heroes, I wanted to be Bill Murray or Chevy Chase or Will Ferrell one that took a minute and that's an interesting story in itself is I happened to do a movie that was entirely improv just before I got cast on parenthood. So I couldn't have done a character, maybe other people could have, I couldn't have done a character and have improv sincerely an entire movie. I just thought I got, I'm just gonna have to be as close to myself as I can so that I can speak in my own voice and improv and that was a kind of breakthrough for me because I watched it and I was really kind of happy with it and other people thought it was really good and it's what made me then go, I'm enough, I don't have to have an accent, I don't have to have this, I don't have to,

I'm enough. Which is a, it's a hard thing to get to. I remember reading, I quote this all the time on my show, which is I was reading an interview with Nicholas Cage who was obsessed with as a kid. He was my actor. That's who I would want to be. He was nuts. And he said it was not until he did the movie face off and he and Travolta swap faces. So inevitably they had to do impersonations of each other and he said he didn't know until he watched john Travolta do an impersonation of him that he actually was unique

enough to even impersonate.

And I thought how could Nicolas cage, one of the most unique performers have not known that until he witnessed that. Um, and so it can happen to people, right? We don't ever feel like we're enough. And then the other thing I think that happened in my life, which is significant is that I joined a 12 step program 18 years ago to get sober and I got a ton of practice talking about my shortcomings, my failures, my fears, my uh, and, and it's a unique experience because it was met always with understanding no judgment, compassion, unity. And I don't know how you could get those hours of practice without that. I'm just not sure. So I think that program helped me just be me and not be terribly worried about it.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree with you. I don't think there's a substitute. Can

I ask you a question,

Are you

just a romantic because at first I think the commitment to go be a monk for three years is insane. I loved worldly pleasures. I wanted to make love to everyone. I wanted to drive fast cars and have people give me approval. So at first glance it would be an impossible endeavor for me. I just couldn't do. And I assume too, there's a hierarchy and people tell you what to do. I would hate that. But there's also a part of me that would have a romantic fantasy about what it would have been and that it would have been a bold and historic decision. Like I had that type of ego where I would have like I'm going to do something no one would do. So what on earth got you to leave the worldly world and be willing to do

that. Yeah, no, thank you for that question. I I think for me, if I if I'm honest about it at the time and it's something you actually touched on a couple of seconds ago, which we haven't dived into yet. But it was I was at the same and same as you. I resonate with that. I loved approval validation. I had lots of girlfriends. I was, you know, all the rest of it. I was born and raised in London. So I lived a very normal life and I, the only thing that was fascinating to me at the time was rags to riches stories.

So my dad had started giving me biographies because he was scared. I wasn't reading because I never liked fiction growing up. I've I've I love nonfiction. I've never been a huge fiction fan and my dad was the person who kind of either he knew that or didn't know that, but he started giving me biographies of famous people, autobiographies of people. And so I read like Gandhi and martin Luther king and Malcolm X and this was all in my teens. And so I was fascinated by people who had shifted culture or made differences in the world, but I was also fascinated by money and Ceos and entrepreneurs and athletes and actors and so I would go and this is before podcasting and Youtube. So I would go to my college and hear speakers who were invited to talk about their careers or their journeys. So you'd go to a physical event, sit in the audience and listen. And I met at that time, so many different people and one of the person that I heard speak was the monk that I end up writing about my book and his name is Goran and I ended up spending time with him And here's the thing that's that it was like at that age in my life I was 18 years old, I've met people who were rich and met people who are famous. I've heard people who are successful and beautiful and attractive,

but

I don't think I've met anyone who was truly happy and content. Now, whatever that meant at age 18, right? Like not that I knew what that even meant, but at least at that age and from him I felt a sense of and by the way there was nothing externally attractive about this man, he was Indian, he had a thick Indian accent, he was wearing robes, but I was so attracted to him and I was like, what is it, why am I attracted to this guy? And I didn't want to go. I mean, I don't know how much, you know the story, but I I've told this often, I I told my friends, you invited me to the event that I would only go if we went to a bar afterwards because I was just uninterested in monks or spirituality. And so I

said contentment. I

was not in search of contentment. Neither was I

I wanted game and neither

and neither was I I was a rebel. I've been you know, just to give you a bit of a background. I was I've been suspended from school three times. I was a rebel. I was involved in all sorts of the wrong circles and here I am randomly at a monk talking and thinking this is going to be the biggest waste of time. But I felt an attraction and I said to him really quick question too.

Of course I do. I don't know what the they say for lack of it. I don't know exactly are you indian or Okay, I don't know what the second or third generation indian experiences in London, I only know somewhat what it's like here in the States from Monica, but I guess my first thought is were you running from or embracing your,

I would say that London I feel that the south asian community or indian community in London is not that my parents had this, but by the time I was there it's more embraced into culture. So I would say in my primary school, elementary school I was bullied for being indian. But then by the time I was in high school I was surrounded by indians and so, so that was kind of like my experience where I would, I would say I was pretty neutral. We weren't doing either because you were kind of embraced but kind of bullied. It was kind of in between.

That makes sense. Because I'm just imagining had that speaker come to Monica's college University of Georgia, she would have run for the hills. She would have been like, don't, I don't want anyone to connect my with this person's otherness. So that wasn't at play. Okay. I was just

curious about no, no, no, it's a good question. Anyway. But yeah, that was the reason that I would say that it was as simple as like what you were saying about race car driving or will Ferrell and I want to dive into that idea. It was as simple as this person at this point in my life is the most inspirational person I've met

and

I want to know how they got there. So I'm going to study their life. I'm going to spend time with them if I have the opportunity and after doing that for three years where I would spend my vacations and christmas holidays with him in India and spending time with him. I was just like, this is what I want to do with my life. So, and then I went and actually lived as a monk for three years. So it was study, it was research, it was intrigued. It was curiosity and it wasn't,

you feel like he had a

magic, he still does to this day like yeah, he's still, he's amazing and he still has a magic about him, which, which hasn't worn off for me for sure

because it's interesting because there can even be within something as a stir or um, as as simplistic. There can still be some aggrandizement. Like I want more. Right? So I think all the things you listed that you were previously interested in, it's similar to me. Like I want more. I've had this experience, I want, I want, I really want it all like whatever the is an option on this ride through planet earth, I want to experience it. So I can imagine if I, I thought like, oh my God, this person has magic.

You know, I remember hearing crazy stories. I'm sure they were just stereotypical, uh, what would you call them? Like arcadian fantasy arc types of spiritual people where it's like, oh, they can soar with an eagle and when I would let myself imagine like I dedicate myself to something if I could embody an eagle and fly around, you know, I'm bummed, there's no hot women and really cool cars on the scene, but I might trade that off to be able to transcend this body.

Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and that's what I think it was right. It was the, I was so deeply in awe of someone's presence and energy and I didn't even know what those words meant at that time, but it was such a deep attraction that my attraction for other things was dimmed in the light of that. And, and that's what I realized that it's not that those other attractions just disappeared. It's just that they were dimmer in light of that attraction, I guess with you, What were you referring to then when you were talking about like having people you look up to or when you mentioned certain names and I think there's something in there around that idea that we all have of wanting more, but also seeing more in others. Was that, where were you going with that thought?

Well, there's a bunch of them. So like, then they're always, if you really look at it, they're probably um, always linked to uh, insecurities of mine and or um, some pride in something I think I, I have, so with Nicolas Cage, I think I was so drawn to him as an actor because I was like, this guy is, he's fine looking. You know what I'm saying? He's not, he's not gorgeous.

He's not unattractive. He's just fine. I think he's getting by because he's tall and so I thought maybe I could do that too. I'm not, I was not the cutest kid in my school ever. I wasn't, you know, but I was tall, that kind of worked enough and, and he was certainly nuts. Like he was, he would make crazy choices and movies, he'd do crazy characters and I thought, okay, that seems achievable for what I'm working with. And then like an aspirational front,

you had like Bill Murray who, I don't think there's ever been a performer. I've seen that is as comfortable in their skin as Bill Murray is like whatever you felt about the person you studied with, I look at him and I was like, ma I still do. And I think God, if I could feel as comfortable in my body as he seems to, that must be, you know, immolating experience. And so he was maybe more aspirational and then will Farrell was more just like the greedy pig in me like, oh, this guy dominates, uh, you can't hold a candle if you're in a scene with him, you might as well close your eyes the whole time.

No one's gonna look at you, you know, you don't even need to be in your wardrobe, he's just so dominant and hysterical and um, and then, and winning every movie's opening number one. I know what he's getting paid. You know, so all that like greedy pig side of me was attracted to maybe his stat. That may be a great way to say it both? A total admiration for a skill level, which I don't even possess. But I think the status appealed to me like, oh, that would be it if you could walk into a studio and go, hey man,

I don't know what to tell you. Here's the idea. It's me in the seventies as a newscaster and that's all you got to say. And they're like, yes,

here's the checkbook.

That's like the dream. So maybe that, yeah. So all sorts of facets of my personality probably drove me to admire or try to, you know, aim towards

those people. Yeah. And with the, and with the 12 step program and that journey to like, what was it like that first time? And my, my more understanding of that journey comes through, um, one of my dear friends Russell brand because he speaks about it often as well and me and him share the same meditation teacher. And so that's how I got to know him a long time ago. And so I that's, that's my only knowledge of it. So apart from that, I, you know, I've only learned about it through him, but with that experience,

what was it like that first time because I love what you said, it was, it was so interesting to me because I've never heard anyone say that, but the practice of having vulnerable conversations about your flaws in the space that is non judgment based and non critical. What was it like that first time when you saw that happening around you? Like did you Look at it and go, well this can't be real or because we've never experienced that? Or did you look at it and go, oh, this is easy. I can be an open book. Like how how did that feel for the first time? Because I'd say most people have never really been in a room that looks like that unless they are going on the 12 step program.

Right? That's such a huge question. First of all, my, my father got sober when I was 14, so I had some loose knowledge of it. I had gone to meetings with him, I knew a lot about it that in its own way became a hurdle to me cause that was virtually like my Catholicism, we were in a religious family. But I know no one, people like me don't want to just take the religion they were handed, you know, it's just, I don't know, so that it was a hurdle in some ways. But when I went there and this, again is is about me,

I can't really answer to why it appeals to other people, but I have this deep skepticism about people in general because of my childhood, there's a lot of distrustful people, I have a really overly healthy skepticism. So if I had walked into a and there was a leader of a a would have been out, if there was a way to move up in a I would have been out if there was any money associated with a I'd be out because soon as those things are on the table, I'm obsessed with intentions, I I cannot feel safe and comfortable until I think I've Accurately evaluated your intentions. So the magic of that place to me is almost structural. I don't know how this thing has existed for 80 years without a president or, you know, a ceo or anybody because had I gone and there was a leader, right? And I heard other men share vulnerably, I would have immediately thought, oh,

they're trying to impress this guy. So what I deduced is that this guy likes vulnerability. This guy's probably perverse in some way or maybe he wants leverage on people or he wants collateral. That's why he's encouraging everyone to dump their secrets. So I couldn't have done it. I mean, just the simple fact that no one there can tell you whether you're right or wrong. All they can do and all I can do is share my experience, my strength and my hope, that's all it is. So I think just that neutral, no one's incentivized no money, no hierarchy. That's why it was magic for me,

that's special. That that's really amazing because when you think about that, as I said before, that's super rare in the world for people to have a space like that to go to.

I don't know what it is to be honest. Because even the church, I can be really skeptical of that. I think obviously, I think there's there's some continuum of religions, world religions where less are hierarchical, less are money driven, but certainly as soon as you've got an intermediary between this book, everyone believes in you. I don't like that. I'm out for any, any system that has someone that has to interpret a book we can all read.

I

don't trust that. Why would that be necessary again? But that I can own my own baggage that that's you know, I I'm a distrusting person out of the Gates.

How have you? I'm fascinated by that. And I don't again, I don't I I don't think that's just a baggage thing. I think there's there's triggers and there's baggage, right? That's both like there's it's not that what you're seeing is not also true. There is truth in what you're seeing and then there's truth in the trigger. So it's both hands. But when I look at what I'm really interested in knowing how you as a more skeptical person or untrusting person have found an ability to build trust in a relationship with your wife in a relationship, I don't and again, I don't know you that way. So I'm projecting you can fill in the right details with business partners with, with people in your life with even directors you work with, who are giving you advice on how to portray a character. Like can you walk us through a journey of trust from the dax Shepard perspective of going from being someone who has skepticism, a healthy skepticism

as you said, that's a great question because I'm most comfortable telling you about things I've overcome. Like I'm happy to tell you, I haven't drank in 18 years. Like I'll tell you all about how I figured out how to do that, right. Um, I also want to say, and this is why your, your your choice to be a monk perplexes me because I was only open to that radical change. Let me just say there's a bunch of gods mentioned a whole load in that big book and I, that's a big trigger for me, but I wanted to die less than I want to say God. It may be the only thing to be honest. So you know that it's a great motivator for change when you actually come to terms with the fact that the other options, death. So every other option for me is probably a little less painful than death.

So I start from there, I'm not someone who's who's quick to learn, listen to other people and believe that what they said is working. It's really newly being explored. Like I'm just newly in therapy to actually confront this is do do who do I really trust? What allows me to trust people is not healthy is actually, I think I'm wrong sometimes, but I'm actually very, very good at assessing intention because I've lived this way for so long. I'm pretty good at walking into a room and figuring out what everyone in there's motive is and there are a lot of motives that don't trigger me, so I don't mind like, you know, it's, it gets tricky when you're hate this word, but famous if you're on tv, there's gonna be a dynamic around you with how people act towards you and you can find yourself questioning like is this person really like me,

are they just trying to perhaps get in my circle so they can elevate their own thing and then somehow you come out on the other side is like, that's not even the right question to ask. Is this relationship beneficial to me? Do I enjoy it if this person ends up getting the thing they want, does that affect me in any way? No, doesn't. And do I enjoy them? Like I gotta get out of, sometimes I can recognize the intention and then just step over it. Like, and it doesn't matter. I have intentions, We all have intentions, but there there are intentions, I'm,

I, I don't mind and there's ones that I mind, but with my wife, there was a super, super specific thing, which was my family was single mom, three kids. The way you showed you loved each other was to never ever be a drain on one another and that was the ultimate way is to be self sufficient. We were all over overworked, underfunded and what you could do is never suck on anyone else. So when you get sick in my house, no one cares. Uh and that was not Kristen's experience, right? So there was a one time in particular, like they were kind of stacking up and she said,

will you get me a water? We're both sitting on the couch. Now, if I'm standing next to the sink and you say get me a water, that makes sense. But the notion that I would get up off the couch and give you a water when you two are next, that was, I had to bring it up. I was like, I'm sorry, I, I don't, this is crazy to me that you would ask me to do something that would take me just as much effort as you and you're the one that's thirsty, I'm not thirsty and she's like, well, God,

oh in my family, that's how we do it. Like some days you have energy and you don't mind getting everyone, you make the dinner. Everyone else is tired and then the other days you're tired, they make the dinner, it's all symbiotic and it all works and I'm like trying to buy into this, I'm actually trying to figure out no, is she just lazy and like I'm setting a pattern in this relationship where I'm gonna wait on her hand and foot, that's off the table. And I honestly, I had to ask myself the question, is this person out to harm me Or do I truly believe this is a good person and this is just how she operates. And I don't know that I really ever asked myself, I forced myself to think of it in that way and I concluded, and this was like 14 years ago,

she's a good person. She's gonna do things that I think are weird and Blah Blah Blah. But ultimately my diagnosis, my verdict is this is a good person and I'm gonna, I'm gonna learn to work through all those other things because I'm going to make that conclusion now now whether she is or not, it kind of doesn't matter. I decided that and that has allowed me to cohabitate with her for a very long time, which is not to say, I won't think she's out to destroy me sometimes because I also lapse into that.

Of course you will. Of course you will. And I think that's a healthier way to make it. I love what you said that

though, because

I've often, I've never really had this conversation with anyone before and I think the same. I think I have a strong intention radar and I'm highly aware of people's intentions in my periphery and not, I think I've had it for a long time and I don't think I've ever had this conversation with anyone before because I've never heard anyone actually say that. And when you said, I was wondering, how do you, what are the things you're looking out for when you are? Because I think that's something a lot of people struggle with, right? I think a lot of people are listening to us right now would say, well, Dax and J like I'd never know like I thought this person was amazing and then they screwed me over or you know, this person was like my business partner and we were building and then all of a sudden they changed and I'm wondering whether you would say actually no, I could tell that intention was always there. It's just that it manifested later. Yeah. Talk to me how, how you assess intentions so that our audience can think about that too for

themselves. Well, let's start with. Okay, so you just said you got bullied in elementary school, so you were in situations, I'm sure where you were misled, you thought someone was your friend and then all of a sudden they turned their back on you because these other dudes who are cooler and to elevate or lower themselves.

Right? Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you a specific story because it's it as soon as you said that this memory came like shooting back. So I was the dorky geeky, overweight, indian kid in elementary school and the toughest kid in school became my best friend for some reason, I have no idea why. And so is J And Ian Ian was his name and Ian became my best friend at school and he would protect me from the bullies and he would defend me and I don't I have no, I still don't know why I should ask him. I I know I have him as a facebook friend, so I need to go and ask him why and he would really protect me and defend me. And I never felt an ego. I was like, wow, like that's so nice of him. Uh And then what happened is that one of the girls told him when we got older,

I think we're in like fourth grade, Yeah, probably at fourth grade. And one of the girls who was kind of dating him or whatever dating looks like in the fourth grade, she said to him, she goes, well you know Jay has been talking crap about you and that wasn't true, I would I would never do that, it's not my vibe. And she's some for some reason I don't know what it was, I have no idea why she told him she was like, jay has been talking crap about you and just so you know, I wanted you to be the first to know and you know, he's been doing it. I don't know this conversations happen all of a sudden I see my best friend at school storm out of the canteen walk right up to me while I'm playing football, soccer with a bunch of my friends onto the big field that we had at school and he punches me in the face,

He rips my shirt, pushes me, punches me in the face again. I've got, I'm on the floor going, Ian what is wrong with you? He's just like punching me away in the fourth grade. And and afterwards I remember the most embarrassing thing, my mom drives me to his mom's house after school for him to apologize. Anyway,

when you see mom move right there, right?

When you said that, that was the first memory. I have never shared that memory. Anyway, that was the first thing that came to my mind anyway, so I will give you back the intentions thing. Let's go well

and without getting bogged down in, you know, my trauma off just, you know, I was molested at a young age. And so once that happens to you and it's only one of many things that happened to me, uh, you have to recognize that your worldview, where people are generally nice, um, and kind and helpful is incomplete. That there are other people who are acting one way to you and and building trust with you because they have an ulterior motive. I also had a slew of stepdad's, some of them were terrible, you know, So once you recognize that there are people now, I think I'm skewed in how many people there are,

but there are sheeps and wolves and once you learn there are wolves, you know, you come, you become pretty preoccupied with it. So I mean it's a weird thing to pass on to people what they should think about. But I mean in the simplest sense, you should be able to tell yourself what the people around you want. You should be able to recognize what people, how do you know what they want. Well, what do they talk about? Who do they hate? That's always a real big clue into what they want. People generally hate people who have what they want. They think it's some other thing, but in reality they're jealous,

They feel outclass, maybe they don't have the talent to be this person. So they pick the four things that are discussing about them and they go on incessantly about those things so you can pretty much discern what people want I think, and then you just have to ask yourself do I think them wanting that is gonna get in the way of this friendship? Is it gonna get in the way of this relationship? Is am I going to be someone that that triggers them because I have what they want. That's an important thing to know. Again, it doesn't have to lead to because again, no one's clean, We all want something I don't claim to not want anything if you and I hung out like your wife is maybe the most striking person at least ever seen on instagram. I mean, she's so absurdly beautiful. I will want her to validate me if we meet in some way, I'm not asking her to cheat, I'm not gonna cheat,

but I can tell you I need to leave there thinking, yep, I made an impression on her. Now, you may chalk that up to this guy's gonna put on a good show for us, which will be the case. I'm gonna put on a show for you and you may go, she's not gonna cheat on me and he's not gonna cheat on his wife. So always fun. I'm gonna be the beneficiary of this, but that's that's what I will want in that situation. It can be a name that can be benevolent, it can be anything. But I just, I think you're, you'd be naive to think that everyone doesn't want something and then you're kind of grading their history to have a history of, you know, breaking norms and laws to get what they want. Now you're in a totally different bracket

as well. Yeah, the reason the reason why I think that that that is such a brilliant answer is because I think we still live in a binary world where we generally believe, of course I'm completely generalizing right now, this is not statistically proven, but we're not trying to do that is that we generally believe that people either want something or they don't want something and you just

Yeah.

And you just Yeah. And you just established like, well actually j pretty much everyone wants something and it's more important to accept that and then figure out what that is rather than live in this world of like I can trust this person because they don't want anything and I can trust this person, I can't trust this person because they do want something, right?

Yeah. That that that I think the kind of pragmatic or productive outcome is generally when you find people that want the exact same thing as you and it's not finite. So if it's a role in one movie and you both want that, that that's right for for trouble. But if we both want something, we can both have, this is a great foundation for a friendship because this is what we will do, this will be the activity. So like you'll find, as I said, I can talk from morning to night, my friends love hypotheticals and moral issues and like I wanna be invigorated and I want to play and if I find someone who else loves to play well that's awesome. That's a great foundation.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think I I think what I value and reflecting back of what you're saying is I just like and I think this was part of the monk thing And actually more becoming that allowed me to be this way more was I just like exposing myself with as much randomness as possible or like extremes as possible or different people as possible because I I just feel like I would never, if you asked me what I wanted to be when I was five years old or 15 or even now when I look back at it, I would never have said the word monk, I didn't even know that the word existed. I didn't have any affinity towards it. So I start thinking now I'm like well wait a minute if I could never conceive that because I'd never met someone who was that then how many ideas exist in the world that I can't conceive because I have not met someone who has played around with that idea or the and so when I, when I reach out to someone like you and and and I look at, we don't, I don't know, I don't think we have a lot in common apart from having

a podcast. Oh I bet we have a ton in

common. We we probably have, we probably have a fair bit in common, but at least I don't know, maybe I'm a I'm looking forward to figuring out what

this is, what what do we what do we count as in as in common like? No, I'm not, I'm not a brown person living in a white world. I'm not, I'm not a monk, I'm not, I don't live in wherever you live ah hooey hooey. The fact that we both have shows where we talk to people probably says way more about you and I than any of those other

things, you know, But

but I love what you're saying because I don't personally give advice. I did. It's not how a A works. All I do is I share who I am and you hear something in there that you think you might apply great, but I'm not one to tell people and I have nothing prescriptive to say to anyone other. I will often say though I have been very grateful that my identity has been flexible and I think I do think a lot of people could benefit because you just made the greatest point, which is you didn't know a monk was an option. So if you don't know what every single option is, don't be so locked into the one thing because there might be a better option. I didn't know what there was no such thing as a podcaster.

So

20 years ago I couldn't have aimed at being a pope because there wasn't one, but my identity is flexible enough that it's like when, when I'm in the river and it's flowing in my direction, I'll stay in it, you know?

Yeah, no, I'm glad that resonated for me that's that's what it is. So I'm always trying to find like, even even though, so you know, a while ago I realized that sometimes they were necessarily not newer ideas, but they were deeper ideas. And so I was like, let me stop looking for a new idea but let me look for how I can deeply, deeply understand an idea because and that's what I'm hearing from you when you're churning stuff with your friends, how do you, how have you found a way to be playful with the people around you where you're able to entertain different thoughts without feeling forced to pick a side, defend or make someone think a certain way because I think that's a healthy conversation to have because I love the idea of so I in one sense I have a very clear uh philosophy of life because of my time as a monk. I think there are certain tenets that I ascribe to, but I also think that that time gave me an openness to accept that this idea should be able to be upgraded at any time. So if someone can give me something to upgrade my philosophy of life, I should accept it because it would be ridiculous to say no, I know the truth and everything else is false. So I like entertaining to ideas. How have you encouraged and how do people around you learn to entertain to ideas at once that are seemingly contradictory but allowed them both to live.

Yeah, I would imagine you and I both love that. You know, one of the crowning measurements of intelligence is being able to hold two conflicting ideas and two conflicting feelings and emotions. And

I

feel bored out of my mind If I don't have some conflict in my head of thought of emotion, all that stuff. I just a board. I mean it might just be as simple as me being an, you know, an activity freak, whatever it is. I will say my mother was genius. I think I had two pretty uh informative experiences that have led me to where I'm at, which is one is my mother. This would always happen. Uh two kids would die in a drunk driving accident in my town and the town would be furious at the driver and the poor may be the victim of the other thing. My mother would are always her first thing would be like, oh the poor parents of both those kids that poor kid driving, you know, they handed out cigars for both those little kids when they were born and they're both here. She'd feel bad for perpetrators of crimes as much as she did the victims of crime. You know, that's a bizarre. I don't know where she got that, but I think she always forced me to imagine that there was suffering on like all

sides of it. No 1s

like that. That was nobody's best day.

Um

and I carried that and I like that and it drives my wife nuts. I forced myself to imagine how the you know, whatever they too are a victim and then secondly I I majored in anthropology. So anthropology is a great way to break your thinking because you walk into it with something, let's do the hottest button topic in anthropology. Like infanticide. Uh the Inuit used to kill their babies after they were born. This is like there's no way you're going to accept that this isn't the most Amoral horrific thing ever. But you are required to learn about what leads to that. Don't write it off as evil, Don't write off as good or bad. Why is it? They would do that. An anthropologist job is just to literally find out how they live their life and why they live their life. What is their reason for living their life And then you come to find out, well wow in their culture only the men can hunt okay, but you could argue about whether that's right or wrong,

but that is the case. You also then find out unlike most hunting and gathering societies there's no gathering it's ice. The only thing they're eating is whale blubber. So their culture is also set up that if your child doesn't grow up to provide food for you, you're going to die. So you have to have a boy as your first child, you're then free to have a gal, I'm not saying I condone it but it's like there's so much more to this story than in fantasy the headline and there are societies set up in ways that certain things make sense to those people. So cultural relativism is what it's broadly labeled, that way of thinking and if you can just forget about the conclusion for a minute, can forget about the verdict, the judgment, you might actually learn a lot about something and I just, I think I've taken that with me, that maybe the best thing I took out of there is just imagining that my way isn't the only way that there are some other ways that feel very wrong to me and that might work might be optimal in places and then I just read this book, I don't know if you've heard of this book, the weirdest people on earth, it is mind blowing, it's it's about how different the brains of people in the West

are, they are different,

starting with the simplest thing Okay, I think I can roll this out in one second. So martin Luther comes along, he says there's no way that a priest can tell you how to communicate with God, you can communicate with God step 12. That is you got to learn to read, you gotta learn to read this bible, so he goes on this huge mission To make different populations literate, he's hugely successful prior to that you had like top literacy rate maybe in Germany was 5% Martin Luther comes around now, you've got, like 80% of people reading because of Martin Luther. Now, when you read that changes your actual brain, the structure of your brain it occupies such a bizarre, it's such a bizarre thing to train your brain to do that, you lose something. So when people learn to read,

they they lose some facial recognition skills, they can read less emotions, you know, it altered our brains. So, so if you start with the knowledge or the acceptance that our brains don't even work the same around the world, how then could all of our conclusions work the same? How can we believe our conclusions are right, Our conclusions are correct for this brain. I don't know that they're they're they're accurate conclusions in Samoa, you know, it's I just I have such little faith in that any of us really know, and I'm comfortable with that, that's a big, I think, distinction.

Some people are very uncomfortable not knowing, I'm very comfortable not knowing. And I'll tell you if I've I think I get asked this in interviews, like, what have you kind of learned from having interviewed 250 academics or professors, you know, cause it's split, it's celebrities, but then it's always academics, professors, whatever my conclusion is anything you believe in at best, it might approach 80% correct. You know, I'll have an expert on, they'll lay it out, oh my God,

they correct it, That's it. And then a month later I have their adversary on that person lays it out. I'm like, my God, this, this gail's got

it.

I mean we we are so flashlight in a cave with everything we know. And I just I don't know, I don't I don't think anyone should feel so certain about anything, I guess is my conclusion.

Yeah. And that and that's the hard part because it's like you need some certainty to make decisions and then you need the uncertainty to be adaptable and that's where we

all should have the humility to say. It's

a probability. Of course I'm

going to make a decision based on this probability and that's about all you're going to say other than I drop this rock and it'll fall anything outside of gravity. You're probably making a probability analysis.

Absolutely. And I love what you said about what your mom had that belief growing up. I mean that was remarkable. Like genuinely that is that is such a amazing thing to grow up around. I wonder these ideas and I know you and christian speak so much so openly about parenting. I'm like, have you, have you there, are there some of these ideas which are not like what I love about this is as we always hear that, that famous quote of, you know, we should learn how to think, not what to think and these are always how to think, right? These are, how to think. We're not telling you're not saying this is what you should think about. How, how are you introducing or are you introducing some of these concepts or other concepts to, to your kids in parenting and how what's been a successful or unsuccessful transference of

ideas? Um, I'm incessantly doing that because I don't I don't have a goal for them. I have preferences, but I don't have a goal for them to not believe in jesus. I don't believe jesus is the son of God, personally, it makes my life probably easier with them if I didn't have to go to church with them all the time to be with them, but I actually don't care. All I want them to do is take in every side of everything. I just want them to be hardworking in there. Thought I want them to hear both sides with an open mind and an open heart and then do their synthesis. That's all I'm really looking for. In fact, this situation presents itself. So we have family members that are very religious, uh concerned.

I'm not baptizing our Children. I think performing maybe a baptism in the living room when I wasn't looking, I mean sincerely, I think that might have happened, always bringing the bible for kids all this stuff. And initially I'm like, well, don't please don't pass that on to these little beautiful kids, but then I thought, you know what, I was exposed to all that. And I came to whatever conclusion I came to, they're going to be just as able to do whatever they feels right to them, who cares? They can take on any information. I think critical thought will get them to where they need to be.

Um, and the only guardrails I asked, I said, you know what? Indoctrinate them, Please don't introduce the concept of hell or sin. Those are the only two. I do not want a little kid ruminating at night whether or not they're going to end up in a fiery pit. I don't think that's useful for. So I just put like two little tiny parameters, luckily those people obliged and that they've left that part out and you know, and then we talk about it and to me they seem like they're thinking about every angle of everything and I guess as a parent, the thing I've learned to do is there's all these opportunities that they're so tempting to teach your kids something always, they're always right in front of you. I feel like my life revolves around atheism. It doesn't just happen to be two in a row stories.

We have really close friends, they're very christian, I love it for them. I'm very supportive of it. There are Children play together, their Children, my daughter was over there and they prayed before dinner and she felt really uncomfortable. She felt nervous, she didn't know what to do, they all knew what to do. She felt out of sorts. She then got nervous that the one child was going to not like her because she didn't believe the same way and I'm learning this on the right home and my first thought is to go, well look at Amy and Ryan and chris, your mom and I were best friends and we think differently, right, I want to like educate her through this.

And then I stopped and I just go like, oh my God, I remember that so much Lincoln oh my God, I remember that. Yeah, I would be at my friend and I just start listing these times that I was in that situation how awkward I felt and then I felt like judge and I was nervous, they thought I was going to hell and all these things and I honestly think in that moment that that is the decision I'm proudest about like I don't need to teach her this, I need her to see this functional human being has gone through all the things she's gone through. That's all I got to do is make her not feel alone in these experiences because that will somehow make her confident. Oh, but it'll all work out. So I've tried my hardest to shift from the lesson and more just sharing the experience with her.

Yeah, I love that I'm so glad you shared that my wife and I don't, I don't have kids yet. So definitely, definitely part of the plate,

so tempting. You want to shortcut them? I do, I want to shortcut them to a four step in a this can really, you can figure out your fears

with this thing. That's

what my mom did with me. She just, she would always relate to me and that just, I liked, I like not feeling alone in my experience the most

Yeah, they need to be able to create a 12 step kids version.

Oh, believe me, they'll get it. They're going to get it through osmosis

and yeah, and I think you do that publicly to write like, I know that last year you, you know you, you spoke about your relapse and you are very vulnerable about and you're open about it. And I wonder, I mean, I guess are your kids at an age yet where they're able to understand your public profile and external profile or not really. They don't kind of understand that. Like are you dad and this or is it just your dad and and how does that

affect them? You know, what's really funny is, well, first of all, they know I'm in a like that I leave in the evenings, certain days of the week and where are you going? I'm going, Hey, what's that? Oh, I'm an alcoholic, what's that? Oh, if I start drinking, watch out, can't stop.

I'm ninth generation alcoholic. You know, they know the whole skinny, they know I relapsed. But what's interesting is the question you're asking is the question I thought about nonstop because my experience was my parents weren't famous. My parents also didn't have money. So my obsessions are like, like what is this doing to them? Blah, blah, blah. And the truth is, and I'm seeing as like it's their childhood, there's no such thing, like we are inclined to think of their experience relative to another kid's, but that's almost irrelevant. Their experiences relative to their own experience and to their maybe sisters experience the notion that they're feeling something different because for me when I imagine what being the child of famous people would have been like is a very different feeling,

but

There is no difference to them. So it's like, yeah, sometimes we're driving and mom's on a billboard, they're not impressed with mom. Mom is mom who didn't let them stay up till 10 last night. It doesn't matter. The trickier part is in public, I'm very protective of them. So if you meet me and I'm by myself, I'm a pretty nice guy. If you meet me and I'm out with my kids, it's not your time, it's my kids time and I'll tell you that it's not time to take a picture with me. It's not time to talk to me about a movie or about a podcast? It is my Children's time right now and that's whose time it is. So I don't mind having a boundary when it's for them,

I have a harder time having a boundary for myself. And I actually enjoy often talking to people who listen to podcasts or whatnot. But I have to explain that to them, right? They can't just see me be very firm with people when they know me to be kind and open hearted to people who don't want something. This goes back to the

intention. So

if we're bumping into strangers at a restaurant or both order the steak and it's delicious and I lean over and go, oh my God, these, they can cook a T bone here. Huh? Like there's that version of dad and then there's the version at the airport where it's like, no thank you, thank you. Like if I can see a camera coming out, it's like you cannot photograph my kids. So I have to then tell them I'm very protective of you. This is why um I don't want your time to be robbed with your dad. I'm gonna always protect that. I don't want pictures of you on the internet. I don't want people to know what you look like and go to your school. Like I don't want this is what's happening. So I just I assume rightly or wrongly that they can comprehend everything and I just tell them,

I tell them exactly what's happening in the world when they're in it again from my baggage. My number one issue is being deceived. I hate being deceived. I hate people who tried to deceive me. It's my number one thing. I hate it. So I just my only commitments. I'm never deceiving my kids. The second thing said wait, how does santa claus get in our chimney? And he, how's he getting there? You said there's billy, how many? Seven billion he's going to seven billion people. Well no,

he's not going to India because they don't believe in santa claus. Why wouldn't he go and I go, I'm not gonna do this to you. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna water down the best part of your brain which is the critical thinking side, which is saying this does not add up. I'm not gonna do

it. That's that's brilliant. I love that. I'm personally just taking notes. This is for me, future me, this is genuinely for future me to, to write some of these notes down and I'm not I'm not joking, I mean

teach them to do something scary. That's my other I believe in that like so both my kids ride dirt bikes. Their little girls, my eight year old just got a very large dirt bike and we just went riding and like You can tell your kids they're capable of anything. You have to give them an opportunity to figure out. They're capable of anything. You know, you telling your kid, you could be President one day. Why. What have they done to demonstrate that give them an opportunity to be presidential.

I I am so glad you said that. I literally was I was on the phone to my friend before we, before we connected and I was saying the same thing. I was like he's got a 10 year old and I was saying and I don't know why I thought of cold plunges, but I did and I was like, you should take your kid cold plunging. Like I was like, you know, he needs to feel like he's achieved something, he's conquered something because we were talking about this is something that's really fascinated me for a long time as I've been trying to at least read as you were saying, read about Children and kids and even just humans, but the idea of fragility and and how like over protecting someone's experience leads to fragility, not strength. And and I found that word fragility and fragile, so powerful even more than weakness or or lack of strength or whatever. Like fragility is really interesting because you go, wait a minute we thought that if we molly coddled and protected and and enforced boundaries and barriers that were perfect like laser fields around our kids or around ourselves,

that then life would be good. I guess. How how do you deal with that poking of deceit as you said, That was what you hate as deceit pokes through that uncomfortable barrier that you have with it. How have you learned to be able to navigate it? Hell in a healthy way.

Well first off, I just think it's hilarious you said that because we've got our daughters, they do cold

plunges. Yeah.

And by the way, not because we told them to because we model it, it's like they see mom and dad get out of the hot tub and go make themselves miserable for 10 minutes. They just get curious and then it becomes competitive, who's gonna do it? Who's I'm afraid to do it? And then I look and I'm like, my God, these little girls do cold plunges is fantastic. I think often you're you're you're trying to protect, let me say this. I had a great head start one. I'm 6.5 years older than my sister. My mom worked nights, I changed diapers with the the safety pins and cloth diapers at 6.5 years old. So somehow this 6.5 year old did quite a bit of child rearing and she's alive. Uh secondly,

I majored in anthropology, I'd watch all these amazing documentaries. One of them, I remember from Papua new guinea, the all the kids that are below six who can't be useful in in digging up. Yams are on their own the jungle, I'm telling you they are on their own, there are two year olds falling out of trees, there's a six year old in charge and they live. So I just walked into it with like these little things are very resilient. I just, I've seen firsthand, they're pretty resilient. So I think I started with a little more confidence in that way. But again, I just think about,

what, what moment in time are you delaying this too? So I'm going to handle everything for them now. When is it their turn? Because if, if, if 18 is their turn and you send them out in into the world, no one in the world as nice as I am to them. So why is that gonna be the optimum time to fail to struggle to be frustrated, to not get help. I regularly won't help them. It seems like maybe cruelty and I'll be like, if you want it bad enough, you'll figure out how to do it. Uh, but I want competent kids. Uh, that's what I want cause I can't go with them everywhere

for the rest of their lives

to, to mitigate every conflict. I can't do it.

I

would love to, it's my impulse. Every time they're reaching for something, I want to go grab it. I'm tall. It's like one of my only assets

in the house.

But no, they gotta get a stool, go get something

for crying out.

Crow can use tools and you can't, and again, they're giving themselves their own confidence. You're not giving it to them, you're not saying, oh, you're so smart, you're so competent. Why are you so competent, but they give it to themselves

and that you just, I mean that really spoke to me because I think so many kids who or and and obviously as adults now who heard that they actually felt that was something they had to live up to as a expectation or an obligation that it's like you're so smart and now they had to present.

Yeah,

exactly. Exactly. And and so totally and I love that you kept saying it's something you have to give to yourself because that's become something that is uh whenever I talk about that, I I really strongly believe that that validation compliments uh awareness. Understanding people can help to a certain degree but ultimately needs to come from ourselves. I I saw you going about to say something I want to let you know we have digital.

I was just gonna say it both are true. External validation works, but it's finite. Yes. So either you have to be on the treadmill of constantly wowing everyone to get the external validation or you can internally validate yourself and that can be permanent or that can be stable.

Yeah. I'm fascinated to ask you this because I think you have a really refreshing perspective how because you brought this word up earlier, how have you balanced self validation and humility and where do they fit in for you? I'm not saying they're opposites. I'm just wondering how both live in a healthy way for you because I think I've, you know, I think we're living and I'm interested because of where we've gone. I think we live in a culture right now that's very much like validate the people you love and you know, like give tell them that they're smart and tell them that they're beautiful. And then I come from a spiritual culture where humility was considered the most beautiful quality a human could have. Like it was correct, but often it led to low self esteem as a misunderstanding of humility and it led to a uh, you know, a self self deprecating and self harmful behavior. So I just want to hear your

thoughts. Well, it's an incomplete word, right? Well, first and foremost, I have a friend, an older friend of mine and the program who often says it's really important to distinguish between humility and humiliation. So like those aren't the same thing

beautiful.

And I also think we all observe a ton of faux humility and I'm prone to do it. I'll start feeling guilty that I look, I've been luckier than most people and I have some guilt about that. I grew up with people who didn't get so lucky. I feel I have guilt about that. So there can be a faux humility as well. But I think the true humility for me is Being honest about my life, which again, is a skill I learned in in the 12 step program. If I look at my life and I look at the times I got exactly what I wanted and what it led to versus the times I got the opposite of what I wanted and what it led to. It would not take a smart person to see the pattern that I'm almost 100% wrong. Which is really bothering like I'm a podcaster because I spent 2.5 years of my life directing the movie chips and it didn't do well financially, I didn't know what to do. So I did not get the outcome I wanted. It led to the thing I'm happiest doing most proud of ever doing. So there you go. If you had asked X what should happen,

I would say that thing should have made $200 million and I should have made three more and I should have ultimately made $25 million to make the third one. That would have been the, the path, right. It wouldn't have been as good of a path. So I know I'm wrong. I'm, I'm consistently wrong. So I don't have a ton of confidence

in my own.

You know, even though I am, I tend to be arrogant and I and I have an opinion on everything, but I also know that I'm also likely to have a different opinion. I just know this. I've changed my opinion a bazillion times over the years. So I just, I try at least now too. I propose things I ask questions. I don't, I try to avoid being definitive about it. I just, I wonder aloud and then often I wonder aloud with another person wondering aloud and we we we somehow navigate towards something that feels truer, but it's just, you know, I mean the Hawkins, you think you're the smartest Stephen Hawkins,

like that guy's been disproven five times by new technology. Like you can't, can you be the toughest guy in the world? You can't mike. Tyson got beat, eventually everyone gets beat, everyone's wrong. It's an untenable position

to try to take.

Maybe it's my vanity. I'd be too embarrassed to say. I know because I'm sure to be proven wrong publicly.

Yeah, no, absolutely. Time, Time is undefeated. And then we hear about timeless realms and then you go, oh wait, times defeated too. And so, you

know, black holes are supposed to

end time. Exactly, exactly. So it's perplexing, but dax, you've, you've been so generous with your time. I've had so much fun with you. Um

this has been

a, this has been a very untraditional episode of, on purpose for many reasons and, and I that has very much been led by you and who you are and and how you approach these conversations and I I really value that because I love, I love being in a and I wouldn't call this uncomfortable because nothing about the conversation was uncomfortable, but I love being in in a new refreshing like uh sparky environment and that's kind of how this is felt. So

and I know you're landing the plane but I have to add one thing on that topic which is I'm sure you're like me which is I prepare. So if I am going to interview someone I know as much as I can know about them. But what I've learned to do and the and the thing I've come to love is I'll ask them how their drive over here was that's not on the list and that leads to nine things that I wasn't trying to steer and then I enter a state of flow and really I figured out I'm only in this for the state of

flow. Yes, I I couldn't agree with you more and that's that is much better explained than what I was trying to say. So we will take your version. But that is that's exactly it. You know? Yeah, we always prepare same thing but I try to get lost. I like getting lost. I think that's you know, and and getting lost is so fun because that's where yeah, that's where you find stuff that you never imagined so well I love that. I thank you. I we end every episode of on purpose with the final five. So these questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. Um and so Dax Shepard These are your final five, Are you ready?

This is a tight box for me to be in. But let's do

it. This is a tight box.

Okay, as you

just learned. Question # one, What is the best advice you've ever received or heard?

I thought someone had stolen an idea of mine, one of the sketches I had at this theater and I thought it ended up on sergeant live and that may or may not be true. But someone pulled me aside and said if if you think that's the only great idea you're ever gonna have, you should fight to the end. But if you think you have unlimited great ideas, keep it

moving. That is so thank you for thank you for taking the time to think about that because that is refreshing and beautiful. We've not had that before. I love that second question, what is the worst advice you've ever received or heard?

This is a hard one because I don't take advice

I guess I guess not and it may not have been said to you. It may have it may, it may be something you heard someone tell you. It may and the reason why I like this is I really want a list of pieces of advice.

That advice.

Yeah that that people can really clearly go, oh gosh, we hear this more often than we think. And so yeah, I

guess I'm just gonna give my what I said to myself at one point which is sure cocaine's addictive, but you're smarter than that.

That's

the advice I gave myself, that would prove to be inaccurate,

That's brilliant. I love that. Alright, question number three, how would you define your current purpose?

My primary purpose is helping people who are dying of alcoholism find sobriety

that's amazing.

I don't do good on my wife's great at trying to tackle enormous things. I feel very overwhelmed by them. An individual who calls, I kind of know how to do that.

Well that that will save that for part two because I like that we'll save that for another time. That that would be a whole beautiful conversation in and of itself. Question number four, what is something you used to value but no longer have value for

status.

Amazing. And 5th and final question I think you'll like this because it sits in with a lot of what we've discussed, but if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow or one habit that someone had to practice every day, what would it be

taking responsibility and apologizing when wrong.

Beautiful. Thanks Shepard Dax, thank you so much. Oh no, this is so much fun. Honestly, I had a great time and knowing you had a great time makes me feel good too because I've been looking forward to this one and like I said, huge fan of the podcast. I recommend everyone who's listening and watching to go listening only sorry, listening, everyone who's listening to make sure you go and subscribe to armchair expert if you don't already listen and of course check out Dax on instagram and tag us both on twitter and instagram on every platform where you're listening with what resonated with you, what connected with you. I love knowing what stayed with you. I think I find it fascinating to see what items you're going to apply, what you're questioning, what you're reflecting on. I'm sure Dax would love to see as well.

Dax, I thank you for your time, your energy, your patience, your the stillness you had in answering those last five questions. I I love how you are not pushed by the pressure. I I really appreciate that. And again, I really hope we get together soon.

Me too.