my family beyond with things way. Remember, just because you're doing a lot more doesn't mean you're getting a lot more done. Don't confuse movement with Progress. Way living, a paradoxical time where we have more comfort but less peace, more connectivity, less connection, more information, less wisdom. The purpose of this podcast is to explore these natural tensions with independent voices. Who will push our thinking? This is the paradox podcast. It took me getting just good enough to know that you can learn quite a lot from experience. That's one thing. Something after that have the will and determination to do anything about it. Hey,

everyone, welcome to another episode of the paradox podcast. I'm your host. Kyle Tibbits For episode number eight Chatter was Hill Living GE, CEO of Gum Road, was a prolific entrepreneur, writer, painter and think about the challenges of building startups. And his viral essay, reflecting on my failure to build a $1,000,000,000 company way, also escaped the world attack and start ups to talk about hell moving from San Francisco to Provo, Utah, most conservative and religious city in America, on lessons he learned about breaking outside or ideological bubbles and engaging with people we disagree with. Friendly Way last to be offered up some very amateur political analysis on the 2020 presidential race, including some surprising similarities between Trump and Bernie.

Full disclosure. We recorded this episode the week before Joe Biden, South Carolina and Super Tuesday come back in two weeks before the Corona virus driven stock market meltdown. To take it all with the grain of solar cells. A fascinating individual, and I really loved how wide ranging this discussion once. I hope you enjoyed this episode with the Hill.

Hell, thanks for joining me on the Paradox podcast and while taking time, busy schedule being here in San Francisco from Portland. Super excited to talk to you. We've sort of been Twitter friends going back and forth on Twitter and and you strike me as someone who's just a prolific creator across the board. Obviously, you've both companies. You both gum road. You write a lot, whether it's super fire tweets or any. He wrote a script for a movie and you paint. So what's the origin of being a creator and wanted all that start? Yeah, I've been trying to trace it back and find kind of like the Big Bang moment, and it's hard. I don't know where it is. I still don't like the nature versus nurture kind of question.

Gets thrown around a lot, right? And they think I've been trying to write a prequel to that viral medium essay from last year, and that's kind of the premise of it is Where did this come from? And I don't know. I confined moments in my life where it's like I had a friend who was really into video game and he was learning pixel art to make icons for his character. And I was like, I could do that, too. I remember my mom having an Internet issue and asking my brother, and I felt like, Why wouldn't she asked me about it. I could get a good at this stuff, too. And so I think there's a competitive nature to me, has always been there,

and also just like I do really believe in, like I want to control my own environment. And if that's really important, starting a company is one of the few ways to do that. I don't think I knew that as a kid. Yeah, I didn't know Adventure Capital was there any of these things? But I don't even know that when I was hated and team. Yeah. Luckily, the social hour came out when I was young enough that I was like, Oh, cool all this. You know, the stuff that fits kind of my world view. In a sense,

Yeah. I think that an early age I was like, I can't I work in finance or a lot of the trajectory that a lot of my friends were thinking about. I was like, That sounds so unappealing to be I work and be here whatever. Like to just punch numbers and make a lot of money? Sure, but never been motivated. I think by that you know, which is funny because I wrote a post on reflecting My Philip Built a $1,000,000,000 company, which is a great title. Sounds like a paradox, right? Yeah, definitely apparent. Um,

and for folks who haven't read it yet, by the way, you should go read it. Let's say they're starting a company or the thinking about starting a company. What? Or maybe the two or three takeaways from that super Ron Honest as said, that you would want them toe pick up. Yeah, well, this is the beauty of sharing stuff is people will tell you, right, Because to me, it was so hard because I was trying to compile eight years of my life into, you know, a few 1000 words, you know,

15 20 minute read or something like that, But, yeah, it was really nice, but I know exactly the sentences really struck a chord with people highlighted, right? And Ohio, you know, like, yeah, they tweet about it separately or what have you? And so I can really kind of go through them. One was. It doesn't matter how fast you shit features or how amazing your team is. The market's going to determine most your growth. That one really struck a chord.

A lot of founders were like, I wish I knew this. I didn't pay attention in the market. And not that everyone should obsess over it or anything like that. And I have tweets that kind of argue that point even on my own. Yeah, because there's a lot of nuance in there. You can kind of be on both sides of it exactly, but I think the The thing that struck a chord was just The market is really important, and it's easy to be like product market fit. Let's just get there. That's what matters. Yeah, but then you get the new relation. Market is tiny, and you're like,

Oh, crap, what you know and it's just being really mindful of. That's kind of like surfing. What is surfing? Finding the one in that way? It's not. Once you're on the wave like almost anyone could do it. It's just like that is the hard part. The wave will push you just the way the market will pull the product out of you. Exactly. You're riding a big enough wave. James actually had a really great tweet that was kind of along these lines and shout out to James for letting us use of the below the line studio. But he basically said, In my 12 years of building startups, I've learned that direction is so much more important than speed.

Yes, and that's kind of getting at the same idea that you can be fast. But if you're fast on the wrong way of your behind the waiver, you too early, Too late, it doesn't really matter totally 100% and picking that direction. Super kids gonna obviously, once you've validated the direction you want, apply speed on top of it. Directionality is sort of the key first. Yeah, and one of the phrases that Justin concept was like, You know, first time found folks some product. Second time founders focus on distribution, which I stole accidentally or subconsciously or who knows?

But I think it's the same idea, which was like, Once you've done it once, you're like, I'm gonna spend a lot more time thinking about how this thing gets out there and gets used, which is kind of market and and maybe a little bit less on product. And part of it is like you figured product out. So it's not like you shouldn't ignore product. But I think there's so much dialogue about product, and there's not much dialogue about market, and it's just less sexy. It's less cool. It's less visual, and it's more business. See, too,

it's like more honest about. We're building a business with People may be shy away from a little bit. You won't pretend like you're in it for elect just building beautiful products and stuff like that, which is not the case for everybody. So that's one another. One is. You know, I have a graph of the government numbers which are sort of like this. Pretty boring up into the right curve. And I say, like, there were times in this. What? We had a team of 20 working 60 hours a week in times where it was just me working for ours Week. Where is that? Like it was kind of similar point,

but basically, like you think you have a lot more control over this ship than you? D'oh! Sure, and you know you might try to change the world or dent the universe. But a lot of these things are out of your control. Timing markets like guys to knows what macro stuff come on. A virus. It sounds like there's a lot of things at play here. You could try to do your best, but like that was just such a healthy realization for me because it was like I can't It is what it is. Space. It's somewhat liberating because it's like I can only control the things that I can control. And there's a lot outside of my control, and I'm not gonna worry about trying to Jack. It's a very stoic kind.

Added it is for sure. Yeah, and I think it was hard to put that in the essay, honestly, because I'm admitting my black of agency in these ways, you know? But luckily, people didn't perceive it like that. I think there's an honesty to it that people probably gravitated. Thio. Yeah, because they realized like, Oh, yeah, that is true. And maybe I'm afraid to admit that.

But now that you've admitted that you have created space for me to actually think and be open to the idea that yet my agency is is limited, it's not infinite. Despite what the social network, some of those narratives that we sort of see in TechCrunch articles or whatever, it makes it sound like, you know, the hero founder can kind of do what they want, but there are environmental constraints that exists. It's important to acknowledge. And then I think the third thing that really resonated broadly those were the two, definitely the two sentences that really struck a chord. But overall it's just like the like. The founder journey is like just not as sexy. It's complex, it's psychological, it's internal,

only you're just lonely and it takes a lot of time. And it often doesn't work out exactly the way you want. And that's fine. Like, that's just kind of like, Know what you're signing up for because I never said like VC is evil. Some people took it in different ways, but you certainly like, would validate certain people's viewpoints and things like that Worldviews. But I was just, like, love this my story e didn't even want to make a point. Really? Yeah, like I I think that's why I worked. You know,

I went viral on all these things because I was like, Look, does my story It is what it is. This my path yet didn't fall neatly into one camp on one side of a debate. It's like it wasn't like that. You should not build a $1,000,000,000 company or you should or like, you know, it's just like reflecting. I use the word reflecting like very purposefully, because it's like trying to be a cz, sort of like distant, almost as possible, like I want to actually strip out. All the emotion is like let the story speak for itself, and that's something that I really I'm trying to do with gum red. I'm like Gummer.

It is what it is. It's the market is going to decide to make it what it is. It's done like a living, breathing thing, like a dragon, and I kind of consider it a pet dragon. I don't like feet and do its thing, but, like I will let it let it live and breathe on its own. And it'll tell me what it needs from, you know, you know, I'll be able to try to get it for it and, you know, But I like having, at least for now,

I like having that kind of distance. That's interesting from a perspective that you obviously didn't have yet, you know, in 2011. Exactly. It's interesting, too, because going back to the beginning around, being a creator. They always say that like the best product abilities, one that you would want to use something that's part of the story of gum Rose as a creator yourself. It's so much easier to put yourself in the mindset of your customers because you essentially are a customer, so I think, Ah, lot of businesses are much harder to build, and there's great businesses that are built by people that maybe aren't themselves customers.

But I think one of the elements of founder product market fit or increasing your chances of having it is just actually being someone who wants to use the product. And you sort of, and at least in my mind, you have epitomized that that story of being a creator yourself, wanting to do something really simple, seeing a gap in the market and just delivering it. And, um, there's something very insightful around scratching kind of your own, actually that Yeah, it's it's I think it's hard for people to hear because I think a lot of people want to build a business, so they're searching for that and part of being able to scratch your own inches. You kind of have to wait until you're itchy, right? You know, and like,

you don't want phantom itch. I've never read that. You're like you're manufacturing so you can go build a business and I see it. You know, in general when you build an audience online around building business and things like that, people will damn me all the time. You know, being like, Hey, I want to build a business. Then I was like, Why? Why? Let's go to the white Board and yeah, you want some tea? Oh,

why would you want to put yourself through that? Unless you really can't commission, right? It's just a kind of a funny people. Take what I say very different ways sometimes. But I'm always liked you. Just if building a business is the answer to your problem, do it. But it's like a weird thing to seek, you know? Yeah. Um, like a solution in search of a problem. Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of it is similar to what I talked about the essay,

and this is maybe 1/3 thing that maybe resonates on a sentence little, but it's just like wealth and success. We tie together aluminum, you know, we say, Oh, he's super successful. Kind of implies that they're rich. Yeah, there's reasons for that, too. But there are also like correlation with causation. Kind of thing, too, is as well and historical injustice and all. It's a complex subject 100% but I think that people appreciated that a lot because I think people fought.

Everyone does fall into that trap. It's kind of a dramatic thing that happens, right? And I see it all the time. I d ems. Yeah, they're like, I want to build a business I want to do is start up. I want to raise money. I want to do all these things and I'm like in service of what? Yeah, it's like, you know, you like society tells you that you want to do these things, but it's complex, like you understand your emotional state,

understanding your your motivations or where they come from like this is something I learned writing science fiction and fantasy is like, How do you tell an interesting story? The first thing you need is a character point of view. Second thing you need is a motivation, just like if you don't have that, you know, story Character needs to want something Corporon, and there needs to be like an optical generally right. I don't really have to be but doesn't have to be like in certain cases, there's not like Superman might be an exception where it's like to stick this insanely super fired human that's fine. You're just excited to see this all American hero solve problems. But yes, in general, like Kurt Vonnegut says, you know character must want something, even if it's just a glass of water,

it's just Ah, that's the sort of like the core. I mean, desire is suffering, right? Like the core human, at least in Western culture or not, is familiar with other cultures. But in general, that's something we all struggle with its ability. We want things we can't get him. Um, we're just trained societally and culturally toe want you must. I mean, that's what advertising is, and it's going back to your earlier point.

I think we have incredibly narrow definitions of lots of different concepts of success is definitely one we conflated with wealth intelligence we conflict with, like doing well in school on standardized tests. That's a high I Q or whatever. Yeah, and it's like, Well, is the billionaire kids hate him. Successful, I know is someone who got a 1600 or a 24 100 depending on your age on your S a T, but doesn't have any street smarts, you know, toe kind of navigate their way around the city. Are they smart? There's so much more nuance and complexity all these things. But society delivers us sort of a prepackaged, artificial version that we either have to accept or reject kind of general like the It's always good.

Thio, you know, analyze why people are telling you these messages. And typically these messages sell products. It's hard to sell clean Christians and our I p says their jobs to be done right, right, Like there's you can't sell something unless there's a job that someone needs to be done. And by the way, we've been around for many billions of years now. Or at least he was been around in our currency for Let's even 100 years, Like a lot of these problems weren't problems all right. Years ago. We need to create some problems. His awesome product as a market. I'm very guilty of this because you definitely, especially when you're a new to a category or creating a new gallery.

Yeah, you need to lean into the pain of what you're solving. It's totally have to do otherwise. Washing the market react to what you're doing. You can kind of transition from being a pain killer to a vitamin overtime. And unless we're killing your pain and it's more, look at the good that we're out into your life. And that's probably the path that any great brand like an Airbnb would take were initially, it's You need a place to stay at the DNC. Your RNC convention will solve it for you. Yeah, there's a there's a blow up in a really crappy apartment, and then it switches to, like belong anywhere which is give this aspirational need to travel the world and, like a local, exactly local.

So it's definitely true that marketing and advertising has a job which is till bean into people's wants and desires and expand them. Yeah, and we can sell products, and I don't think that's inherently evil. And apparently, totally. It's like anything. It's a mix. It's a balance exactly exactly like the people that work at Coke or whatever. Like generally like I'm sure they're like when you hear that thing that can pop it open. Like if it was amazing, there's a nostalgia to it. Yeah, but then there's like a health concern, Thio. So I,

in general believe that most people are are like almost literally 99.9% of people are good people, and it's just misaligned incentives, typically that create these things. But yet I don't know if everyone lived was sort of like distant, aloof kind of lifestyle, and on very little I think they'd be roughly the same happiness as they are today and maybe more. But the word is, all the innovation go like. The path of innovation is not pretty often like there's a lot of violence, a lot of war. Yeah, a lot of none of this stuff is guaranteed. Troubling is living in the semi free society. That's the anomaly, not Yeah, well,

if you read history exactly. Innovations not guaranteed economic growth is not guaranteed. So yeah, and we haven't even dealt with, like what happens when population start decreasing in size because that's gonna happen. Like our entire system is predicated on the idea that you buy a house. It will be worth more because some some either some greater fool or some future citizen that will have the money to do it will be able to exactly That's ah. That's an assumption that would have been able to use for since the beginning of humanity. But we are We will see, even like seeing, I think, the early stages of it. You look at Western Europe with the planning, birth rates. I think, you know,

it's probably a relative. Has a single core is dealing with it now, Yeah, I mean, we're kind of on the process of starting to experience what that looks like. You're in a world where there's negative interest rates, guys like Warren Buffett or like I never really even thought about being in a situation where there's low inflation, losing money. But you're paying someone to hold your money. And there's like it was just kind of an absurd thing that he probably did think about 3400. I think that's one thing I have learned. It's sort of like a tangent, but I think a society, we could appreciate the problems more deeply. I think it's easy to be like, Oh,

I like health care and I think everyone basically agrees that health care in this country is broken, but it's complex and I think a lot of people like Oh, the answer is this is easy. It's not easy, it's not. It just isn't I really believe that if it was easy, it would have happened already. Yeah, there's a reason that it's difficult, but we should appreciate it. And we should also appreciate the recency of it. I think sometimes I want to at some point do this list of problems that we think about on a daily basis and and sort of pinpoint when it started being a problem. Kind of like what you're talking about. The advertising thing, Yeah, One of the big things I learned living in Provo was like every thought thing I thought I was sure about.

They have just as good, if not better, counter arguments. Yeah. Ah, that's an awesome sight away, too, because I really I I love your essay about the gun road journey. I think everyone should read it, especially anyone that aspires to be an entrepreneur. But for me personally, that I said that you written that really, really grabbed me and I thought was just really interesting and unique was this essay called From Bubble the Bubble, where you talk about going from a very liberal, very secular San Francisco to very conservative, very religious Provo,

Utah. I think you said an article. It's the largest and most conservative ah city over 100,000 people in the United States or something. Yes, that was the most conservative city in America. So that's fascinating because we've expression the wake of the 2016 election, where things went differently and certainly in the media narrative suggested and much differently than a lot of individuals expected. There was a lot of retrospective around. Oh, wow, maybe I live in a little bit of a bubble. May I live my own alternate reality where I get Breitbart's Fox or Rush Limbaugh? Or I look at, you know, Rachel Maddow, Rachel Maddow.

So I think I think there was a lot of thinking around it, but I don't know anybody that literally picked up and moved to Utah from San Francisco. That's that's incredible. Can you talk about just what inspired you to make that pretty dress? Yeah, honestly, is something incredibly inconsequential, Which is? I wanted to learn how to write science fiction and fantasy. I mean, I had already wanted to leave San Francisco s Oh, it's complex, but yeah, I wanted to take the science fiction fantasy writing class by this author that I really like Brandon Sanderson and I wanted to live in a conservative place. And so I applied for this class. I was still in service code and totally intended to stay.

Maybe do a little bit of traveling or whatever, but certainly not moved to it like an incredibly conservative and religious place like Proteus. And then I got in and I was like, I'm a hypocrite if I don't say yes to this because I'm kind of signaling like everybody kind of was signaling at that time that, like we're open, more open minded than we think And this and that and it's like I have to I have to do this like I don't need to be in Francisco. We got into the office like I literally this is the perfect, like all the stars kind of alive. Yeah, and it's like if I don't say yes to this opportunity now, like I'm a hypocrite, I'm never gonna do this again. So I was like, Cool, sure, I'll do it.

And so I moved, not really intending to stay as long as I did. I was there for 2.5 to 3 years but it is phenomenal and I agree with you. Like I think that's a that I can see why the reflecting on my feeling ability $1,000,000 companies. The more successful, especially given, like the audience, your audience on Twitter so forth and I get it. That's the stuff from Bubble Bubble is like, I would say, come like the deep cut, the thing that I wish everyone that read the other one would read. Especially now, especially now, especially Bernie wins the nomination totally. If it's a Bernie versus Trump,

I mean, it's it's Someone had a great not too overly reference Twitter, but some had a great tweet. It was like 2016. I don't know any Trump voters. 2020. I don't know any Bernie voters. 2024. I don't know any cognac. Just continuing building. Just hilarious. Uh, it's interesting that because I've supported Bernie's in 2015 and very few my friends are fans of him. Yeah, because my friends were, in general,

pretty affluent people. Yeah, the disclosure. I'm not a phantom, but yeah, all the more reason why I think, but I'm a big champion for night. This podcast can do anything I love the idea that we can just sit and have a conversation. It's disagree, and it's not emotional at all. I mean, I grew up in a more conservative part of California. Southern California. Certainly not Provo, Utah. Yeah,

but I went from there but in, like, a Christian high school. So I kind of did the river and I went to U C. Berkeley with my political science professors were, like, definitely pretty Marxist and was not certainly a religious friendly place at all. No, no. And it was one of those experiences of my life is fantastic. Yeah, that's the thing that I did notice when I wrote this in the kind of feedback there's like, you did this amazing thing and I'm like this thing that I did, actually, the other side does all the fucking time. Like you have conservatives moved Thio Francisco every day,

and it's socks for them. Seriously, it was Nasir, open minded place on many levels, especially on religion. And so this thing that you're hailing need to do, you can help make this easier for other people. And you don't even need to move the Provo. You can just be open minded and reach out to people that maybe think slightly different. Yeah, in your own city, totally. 91% voted for Hillary Clinton, and I'm not saying that's wrong. I voted for Hillary Clinton to but like there is definitely this holier than thou mentality kind of a different form of religion. Maybe in a sense,

And, you know, I'm sure that 9% was not having fun that time, you know, and felt evil, like demonized. And that's not healthy. I think general in society to do that, I totally agree. That's probably one of my greatest concerns in society. Is just that degrading of the marketplace of ideas, the public discourse? And there's an alternate universe where 91% of San Francisco's still voted for Hillary Clinton. 9% did not. But there's a true I mean liberal in the truest sense, open mindedness,

total wanting to really explore the other side. I'm fascinated by people that I disagree with, but going back to Provo, Utah, thing. So what were some of the conversations you had with obviously these largely very conservative, not universally, is again probably like a similar percentage of people voted for Hillary and Bravo, as voted for not Hillary in San Franciso, exactly 13% were like a couple examples of the conversation that you had with someone who maybe had different views than you were kind of light bulb moment, where you're like, Oh, these people aren't bad. They're just thinking about something differently. And they have entirely different contacts and mental framework for how they approach everything. Yeah,

so I think there's a few different types of that happening, right? So one was, ah, full agreement on thought like what was inside our heads and our intention, but like a different words being used. So I would meet people and be like, Oh, we totally agree on this issue. But you're using pro life and I'm saying pro choice. But we actually agree that was shocking. Yeah, because I was like, No, you're not pro life. And I think what happened was I'd explain my view and I said,

Oh, you're pro life. How did you live in San Francisco being pro life and like, what are you talking? Uh, total. And he was calling someone, like, just like a terrible word. Pro life? Yeah, like I'm very like I have the view that most people have in San Francisco on, and they're like, But I thought pro choice meant, like always, I'm like no right that pro life meant never.

And this is such a great example of how I was like, Oh my gosh, we speak softly, speak past each other because we're armed with this language And God has designed a like to take away some of the political stuff and use like a tech example. Yeah, it's similar to like this happened around Christmas time, Jason Freed said. You know, if you're being asked work nights and weekends, they would basically try to make you work all the time you had. This isn't a crappy situation, and then this other person said, You know, people that don't work 60 hours a week That's right. The hard work debate of December 20 everywhere that one. Huge.

Yeah, it's kind of funny how big it became. Actually, I guess that's what happens on the holidays. No one. No one wants to talk to their family. Yeah, but ah, it was interesting because the same thing, like they actually were not arguing. No tortilla, fundamentally different things, and someone was saying, If you want to be successful, you're gonna have to work really hard, work 60 hours a week.

What he actually said was anyone that's been successful has worked 60 hours a week in their twenties, something like that. Which is probably true. Yep, also everyone agreeing with that founders and CEOs, or at least early employees, have equity in whatever sure building right Jason Freed hadn't said nothing about that, He said. If on employer asks you to work nights and weekends, if there was more time, they would ask you to work that too. No equity, no ownership workings of just fundamentally different, separate, mutually exclusive ideas that actually don't even necessarily conflict. But they got actually conflicted.

I got turned into two narratives, and it was like there was work hard. Yeah, 60 hour weeks side. And then there's that, you know, 40 hours or lasts or anything else is evil. But actually no one, in my opinion, it was basically a bar fight, but no one was fighting. It was just like everyone agreeing over here and everyone agreeing over here and this, like tension existing. Yeah, and I just see that all the time. It's kind of the same thing.

I feel like they're people think there's a fight happening. Sure, I don't know the answer to this. I was thinking about writing an essay at some point called How to Disagree on the Internet or software people for people who disagree, and I could literally couldn't figure it out. So that's where I see the hard challenge. Yeah, but But basically I was like, People want this. And this is the thing that we have to acknowledge in society is actually people want look in my tweets and remove the nuance or assume that I am stupid or or whatever because that's this group of people want. I think it's kind of a cheap replacement for meaning. I think there's been a little bit of a struggle, are meaning and purpose, and so, like I'm gonna fight on behalf of the cause that I believe in this perspective, the way to put it to one and you could say less charitable.

You could say to virtue, signal, but more charitable. You could say that these people are actually to give them a little credit, are searching for something to fight for which actually is not inherently a bad thing. It just is channeled in the wrong direction. At times, some of tactics are. Obviously, they believe that it's in the right direction. But, like I would say, you know, maybe your time would be better spent canvassing or or what? I don't know. Yeah,

but you're right. I think that's exactly right. Like, I actually think these people would normally be social activists in different ways, and this is just a new outlet for them. And that's that's how we should look at it. And I met with the mayor Provo who helped become a Congress person, actually, Now? Oh, interesting for yeah. Uh, it's like something I've really talked about just cause, like, I'll get roasted for you. Hoping you helped you helped from,

like, kind of like a marketing campaign and an apology and cool, like strategy is. I mean, I don't I'm sure you would have won without me. It's not. But I was actually gonna run for that seat against Jason Chaffetz and then Jason, step down. Fasten. It was like my Provo side project because I was gonna I would have loved to see that. Yeah, so my now would actually much more compelling cause actually like a much larger audience than I did back then. But basically my plan was to run and sort of kind of what I do with Gummer just kind of take this like, super unique, transparent, open,

tiny team approach to it and then open source everything. It was like all the technology used to run all the strategy, just open source. It also that the same way you have, like public board meeting as your financial plan with Gum Road. Take the same approach to Washington, by the way I tend to do that thing. That would be incredibly appealing. And I actually I don't know to what extent you and I may or may not disagree on particular policy issues. I would vote for you just because again the medium is the message. Exactly. The approach is so fundamentally different and interesting to me, and my main beef really is sort of with incumbency and probably large centralization of government and anyone even if I disagree with them on particular issues, that would actually take a spotlight and transparency into the holes, and I Actually I wouldn't I would vote for. I wouldn't have a single.

You could not disagree with me. It would be impossible because my whole platform, my whole platform, I have this all figured out. My whole platform would be I have a nap. You We have this voter file connection, so we know you're registered voter. Yeah, and I vote the way you want me to all the time, every time, like just to react with 100% direct representative. This has happened a couple times like Brazil has one or two of these and they have this kind of model and and it's like, look like I'm going to spend all of my time because that's what I find. I do believe this, like, my job is to educate you.

If I really believe that Might my constituency is wrong. And this is what I when I helped a Republican become congressperson, I was like, Look, I like this guy. Things honest. Good. Yeah, he votes party line because it's it's a fucking it's what you do. You have to do all the incentive structures force you to do and and demonizing him is just ineffective. And he had a lot of liberal support cause he was much more sort of like quote unquote left liberal. I'm definitely conservative, but, like, more moderate or what? More moderate kind of thinker.

And he was like, Look, all of you don't vote for me if you want me to vote Democrat. I'm not going to do that because I don't want to lie to you, you know? And I think that's really healthy. And and I had all these second order effects. If you could build like a representation of semantic map of everyone, then you can actually build something doing town halls. You could do dinners and organize community events where people are really Look, stop are talking to me. I'm just a conduit for where your mother talk to each other. That's the ocean air. And look, if you don't like it, I'm sorry,

but 80% of my constituents want me to vote for this. Yeah, like that's just yeah, it's like getting the town square, sit around the dinner table and have a have a neighborhood barbecue way back. Start hashing it out and it's almost like a I know. The caucuses recently were a disaster for you and I understand point. But imagine 24 73 65 caucus were on any given issue. Correct. Guess what people could influence, and it's actually, they know will impact your vote because you're literally voting directly based upon you and the express. Third order effective it is. You would know how everyone's voting all the time because it isn't 24 7 caucus system. So when the vote happened, it's not like,

Oh my gosh, who's gonna win this? It's like, No, we already know where everyone stands. Why? Because you have to pay for poles anymore because you have. You have the representative data all the time, So I think there's there's a huge and one day I think 1/4 order effect is it could totally break the stranglehold of the two party system. I always think of it this way. We don't technically have a two party system, and there's nothing in the Constitution says about 50 parties. We have a system that lends itself to the rise of two parties because the first past the post and winner take all, and I'm a single president 100%. But if you had 535 representatives that were operating in this way. And obviously you would start with the beta test,

which would be a single candidate. Spreads maybe become his own caucus within, you know, like the Transparency Caucus or whatever. And you can only be part of it if you literally have to vote the way. Yeah, yeah, and it's by you. Actually, that's actually one of the most interesting approach is short of structural change. Say the amendment level, which is you two start to weaken that. Because I think, honestly, if it's if we look at what's going on Bernie versus Trump, part of the narrative is like people are sick of the established.

Yeah, that's obviously the takeaway. They're sick of the Democratic establishment of the Republican establishment. They're sick of rich experts telling people what to think and do 100%. So I love eso. Which could you theoretically run in Portland or somewhere in Oregon? Or is that a little bit? Yeah. So the thing that was appealing about Provo specifically again, it was kind of coincidence and happenstance that Jason Chaffetz was universally hated by everybody because you just like super like no one, really liked him and he'd step down or he had to step down. So I was like, Oh, I can run again someone he had one foot into the Fox News Studio. Yeah, I'm sure you did for a while,

But then when he resigned, I was like, I can't do this because it's gonna be an open seat with a legitimate candidates. It was like a unique you need, like an insurgency campaign that's like Galileo soil, right? Like Chief was really like she found a C that was perfect. She went on 1000 votes, which is what you can do when you're running for Congress in a primary system. It's funny because you see these reports. You know, everyone's paying attention to the Iowa caucus and this is thousands of people. Yeah, tens of thousands of people. Max right there. I think Nevada's a 25,000 years.

It's like time is a cock. It's It's a tiny, tiny, tiny and we're all like hunting all 300 people, which kind of like trying to read the tea leaves in the exit polls for with a few 1000 people is kind of That's how bored we are now. that's how. How deeply in search of conflict and meaning and purpose, I think like society is honestly, a lot of our problems are solved. And we have a lot of time. Yeah. Ah, and we don't know what to do. I sort of fundamentally believe that. So I would love to run. Maybe I don't know if I do it in Portland.

Um, one day, though, like I will talk about it cause I'm like, I don't I don't need ownership of this idea. Actually, like, I want the opposite of that. This context well, and this is the idea of the reluctant founder, the reluctant politician. You want this idea or this this movement to sort of exist You don't care of yourself. Do, in fact, your preference. Probably in some ways,

it's not to do it, but to get the idea out there might has one thing. And I have to be you to push forward. Yeah, when I was in proving I was trying to focus, I'm like, look like to build what I want to build. You'd have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on designers, engineers, looking valley people, really good people. They get paid a lot of money. And the only way you can avoid this is me. Because I am that person. I'm your other all in one engineer Candidate? Yeah,

inner entrepreneur. Yeah, And guess what? I have a business that pays my bills for me, that I actually don't have to work on 40 hours a week. So it's like a kind of the stars are aligning. But again, I like I'm like, I'm patient. We'll consider me your your first. Well, one of your first support. I'm fascinated by this idea. Yeah, we can talk about that literally. Like the rest of the podcast.

I think there's one thing I also want to talk about. Two as you mentioned in the piece that you started going to church every day. It was lbs in Provo. Total Was that like it? Do you still you still go? Don't go that much honestly anymore. I should. It was easier in Provo for sure. It's just so much. Everything's all right around it, right? But yeah, my thing was like, I'm here. I might as well kind gods of journalism, you know,

like, just go in and go deep and it was amazing, and it was so important because I think church does one of the things that doesn't really exist out here, which is you're forced to hang out with people you normally would never want to, and that's really important. And I like that. That's what community, in my opinion, almost is. Networks allow you to pick and choose your filter bubble, and communities don't. It's like you're in this group of people because you all love ultimate Frisbee ing. You have to take the good with the bad. Yeah, probably a few bad apples and you guys would hate this one person. You're on the same team.

You just clash or whatever, and that makes you stronger. And that's so important about politics, too. I think it's finding deeper connections so that you could talk about these other things without you holding onto this deeper relationship that you have. It's a church was phenomenon. I really learned. I think a lot about one, how people think, because I understood the service level behavior kind of stuff, but really figuring out like why they behave, just run away their their intentions and what they prioritized, what they think about was super key. I think to really understand that cultural context, and it took a long time to really even get into like, Oh,

that's why I like it so buried in there Sometimes they really go. That's why this weird thing that I didn't even notice was really weird. That's why you do it that way. You know what? Such like a huge is perhaps the biggest input into their world view. Yeah, that's not actually go and experience it. You're sort of missing a piece of your Provo experience. If you don't, if you don't go toe, yeah, you are 100%. It is like the thing you are. Your whole life is sort of like if there's like, a tent pole kind of cadence, you are hinged on that that weekly church session and and something other events that happened sort of that come out of that,

too. Sure, you know. And it's interesting to in a world where we've got crumbling institutions right now, trust in institutions is that I'm low like you name it. That's kind of an example, are at least a pretty localized example in Utah, the institutions still quite strong, very issue, and families and communities and neighborhoods are organized in the least certainly the least sort of diaspora, occurring generationally like. I feel like every religion is taking a huge hit, and I feel like even atheism was going to take a huge hit action and goto starving masses emerge spirituality or some of these other things Definitely we're seeing. That was sort of the UN bundling of all the religious elements in San Francisco. We both talked about the online, but it's like it's like you're meditating while you're praying and fasting abstaining from You're not the first person to fast.

People have been doing it for thousands of years and, you know, it's like there's their deep religious roots around all this stuff. It's interesting because I grew up in a Christian household, went to public school for middle school, but then, as I mentioned a Christian high school and then very much in my twenties, kind of walked away from it. Faith not entirely. But it was not something I was actively pursuing at all and just in the last, maybe certainly three years for maybe 3 to 5 years, and I think probably big driver impetus for this was my wife got pregnant. We have now two year old. She's gonna be two years old next week. But I think it's something about that experience of not being in control. Thank you.

Her name's Finley. You can say Happy Birthday did. I definitely actually can listen to this one. She's old enough, but I started getting back into it and kind of reading it with totally different eyes. I mean, my high school self was like, I don't want to go to church. I want to stay home. This is boring. I'm reading this stuff, I don't care. And then reading some of this stuff with 30 year old eyes, I'm like, Oh, wait,

this is quite this is different, but I have a whole different perspective. Yeah, and incidentally, the church that I sort of a 10 and I'm using quotation marks is actually it's based in Charlotte, North Carolina. So I've only been one time nondenominational Christian church. In fact, what's so interesting about the church's? You can't categorize it because it's so. It's a multicultural church was like It's not a black church or a white church, which in the south is kind of a big deal. It's not a young church or an old church. It's hard to put it in a box. And so I really just watched the sermons on YouTube like once a week, like all this beyond the BART,

you know, with my Corona virus masked watching the sermon, and it's kind of whenever I can fit it in, it doesn't need to be Sunday from, like Time Max to time. Why s O. I think religion is going to definitely go through some metamorphosis in terms of the form. It'll probably break outside of the walls. I think the institutions again, a lot of the institutions, they're run by people who are flawed, and so people are looking to kind of shake things up a little bit. But I don't think is inherently bad. No, I think it's great. I think decentralization and agency agency is kind of the core.

I feel like value of conservatism, and I have a lot more appreciation. I think for people wanting that the sort of Reaganism kind of mentality, I think individual is, um is like a I mean it's like what Trump and Bernie are kind of both running on, I think, to a large degree, even though I think a lot of people I think they're not, it's like they're. I think Bernie and Trump actually would, like, go completely And there's also there's a populist streak there, both of them, And there's areas where Trump completely and both from New York. Yeah, I I actually think this is maybe one of my contrarian takes for for this podcast is I think Trump actually absolutely does not want to get into a war.

I think in some ways compared to some of the cons the Hawks in the Republican Party that are constantly drum beating for war in Syria, war in Iran. I actually think despite maybe some of the rhetoric, which I think is more of a tactic, I think he actually really wants to avoid work as he views. It is just a plunder on our domestic ability to do anything and he's all about like spending lots of money and the deficits a really big, which is, which is which is not great. But there's there's actually some commonalities between Trump and Bernie. What you can't You can't say that Bernie or a Trump supporter because their heads explode. Yeah, but I think you and I both kind of see that, you know, the major one is like things. We're screwed right now. Yeah,

you know, and things were messed up. The American president's job is to help the American people. Yeah, I think that's like a fundamental, like alignment that they have. And I love like a clear mission statement like that because you can point out all the ways in which the government doesn't do that. Sure. And it's unbeatable. I mean, it was almost unbeatable in 2016 and like, if Bernie doesn't get the nomination, I think that would be the worst thing I know a lot of people don't think you will or don't want him to know. I personally think you will. I think I think you will, because the votes were just getting split up on the more,

you know, Central out of the party. And the only thing that could potentially happen is if literally everybody drops out. Except, sure, burger, something, you know, something crazy like that. But I do think if the Democrats do not nominate Bernie, it's only getting it worse. The people that don't like that streak. It's not going away. Yeah, it'll it'll strengthen and enrage it. And on some level 100 I think this is where I agree.

Wasn't evolves. Tweet. He actually called it four years old, but he was basically and I was funny cause I had some replies. I went back and I read him like, what was I thinking in May of 2016? But he's basically Bernie Trump is the race that the people want it ISS and and it ends 100%. And I think we're maybe I'm critical of both Bernie and Trump, and it goes back to something you said earlier, which I think is very relevant is all politicians do this. This is not to cast blame on them in particular, but they pretend this solutions and the problems are simpler than that. Yes, so they're both putting their finger on something which is true, which is that something's air, not right.

Something's air broken systemically, and we need to fix them. We have very, maybe different views on how to get there, but there is a large consensus, even with an economy that's doing, I think, by the numbers supposedly well there's more nuance that there's more underneath the service, there's more discontent, disease with life in general and the Big Lion just pretending that the solution is easy because it's 100% you know, people have their own takes on it. A lot of it goes back to that behavior intention thing. Like I believe Bernie is incredibly logical, smart thinker. And if you listen to his radio interviews from 30 years ago, he he said the same stuff he says now.

Except he has all of these nuances that he's been fighting for Medicare for all for 30 years. Well, again, I'm not remotely a Bernie supporter, but he's incredibly consistent. Supercuts. I believe that he believes, like the reluctant politician. Yeah, this guy literally has been saying this like thing, not to knock Hillary Clinton. But I just didn't Everything felt poll tested, and I think that's part of why didn't sort of work especially relative to Trump. And I think Bernie love him or hate him. The guy believes what he believes totally, and it's,

you know, it's like anything I believe I saw the overturn window, right, like you asked for a low if you get a crumb. You ask for a crime, you get nothing. That's the line that burning uses. Sure, he even says it. I mean, he said this in 2016. I don't know if he's used in this race, but he was like, Look, I literally don't even want what I'm asking for. Yeah,

you have to ask for it. You know, I think also does that Trump Trump 100% Trump. I think in the campaign he was saying absurd stuff like we're gonna deport 12 million. Now. He just starts with an extreme position and then just works his way in to get what he wants. And you can argue about whether that's good or bad. I mean, decided to do in any negotiation, right? And then there's one of the one of the things that he ran on. The city's a good negotiator. The thing that I tell people is just I don't know enough like we can argue about whoever but, like we just don't like if Bernie becomes president, we just don't know what's gonna happen, right?

And we didn't know what same thing with Trump like we just didn't know it was a total the car like I think that any certainty right now is ignorance in my Italian Because, yes, I've seen the arguments and like, there's no way any Democrat could be Trump. And if I had to bet money, I would probably say Trump 2020. But I'm not gonna bet money because no one no, no one knows we're in a post certainty situation, and I think, actually, I mean, it seems like Trump wants to run against Bernie, But Bernie's got a movement. Yes, I mean, Trump has movement to That's kind of what you want,

so I don't think I don't The thing that I learned in Pro Ana movement, there's an insane amount of Bernie supporters because the thing that Bernie does, I think that is gonna be really powerful is he doesn't really talk about sexism. Racism? Oh, the identity told. Doesn't it really doesn't get in till he gets a lot of flack for it, But he doesn't talk about it, and he says, I'm not saying those things don't matter. I'm just saying, let's fix the economics and the rest will take care of itself over time. And the funny thing is, I actually like that position. I don't like the policy outputs that sprout from that for him, but I like that.

Look, this is actually something that burning, I probably agree on. We just have wildly different views on how to get their socioeconomic diversity. And mobility is a huge, huge problem. We need to solve it. It doesn't matter if you're conservative, moderate, liberal. We need bread with eyes like this. One of the most important. Yeah. Believing the American dream. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think I think people under rail if you go back and look at the Democratic primaries in 2016 like Hillary verse Bernie? Yep. Kill you. Want every city and Bernie? Sweeped like sweeped outskirts. All the rural, all rural, all the rural. Obviously you're looking at rules who are voting Democrat, right? So sure, it's not a huge amount of people. I'm not gonna bet again, but like I think people might be underestimating the truth is like when you live in a city like San Francisco, you are incredibly socially liberal and pretty financially conservative. More likely than right.

Like you're kind of a Bloomberg E type supporter. Totally. But if you had a kind of like turn the city into a person. But the truth is, America is the exact opposite. America is actually probably much more financially, fiscally liberal than most people. Serious school would actually like the alignments, probably Quince. He's wrong and much more socially, culturally conservative, way more culturally and socially concerned, Which, honestly, for most Aaron Systems is like the worst news because we want Yeah. I mean,

we're very broadly right, but like a lot of the identity, cortical, identity, politics, stuff sort of tie up a lot of our social dialogue. And the truth is, you're gonna lose most of those battles because some of these issues, like when I moved to Provo and I'm like, why don't we do this? And they're like, that's 0.1% of population. Why do you what, like why is that your focus? And it's like, huh?

Uh, yeah, I guess I never you know, It just is well, you know, like and I wish if that's one thing I could brainwash everyone on, I'd be like, Let's forget about this for five years, solve a bunch of fiscal problems, and then we can start worrying about this stuff again because, honestly, I just think it is having a negative net. Negative. Well, come on. The problem that we want something because the reaction to them is so strong.

So for the last word on the podcast, these are questions that I ask every guest. But you can take them in any direction that you want. The first one's kind of a riff on the now famous Peter Thiel. Yeah, interview question. But what? Something. And you've already hit a couple of these. Coming up with another 1 may be challenging, but what? Something you believe that most people don't. And I'm sure you have many views. Yeah. Fall into this category. Yeah,

I would say I think cities are overrated. I would say most people lose cities are awesome and like the future. And certainly we're in one and I love cities, but I think I think we'll see over time. And I'm speaking 50 100 years. I'm not speaking like, you know, one or two election cycles, but I think the cities will be overrated. I I liken it to colleges. People come sort of learned a bunch network start their career, but I think especially if Yu want Children and these things that we do want, like 99.99% of people want Children or something close to that order magnitude like there is a lot of appeal in living in the middle. Nor, I also think will be great for climate change. No commutes,

more sustainable. I'd say I would buy us towards the city ideal because I was like I mean, I grew up. I was born in New York Group in Singapore L A for school SF go. And then I moved to Provo. Yeah, and it was like, It's kind of nice, you know? And I was like, I could go to the butcher. I can raise my own chickens. I can cook out of this huge kitchen and I'm paying 100 bucks a month for this. I'm free with my car. I can go any gunner's actually. So I mean,

that's that's kind of you know, I think I think what we'll see is like a lot of the City service is that we do like, will make their way out there like a distributed and then I just think the second order effects that would be really great in terms of if you want to spread liberal ideology, if you're sort of that type of person like that's not happening and it's owned. By the way, I kind of spread certain liberal and conservative tenants. It's kind of weird. It's It's almost like it actually takes the political spectrum. They just like, kind of just total mixes and upset because great for climate change. Great for I mean certainly things like traffic, but also, like rule quality of life, of gun ownership, like there's a lot there, totally that cities,

I think, just become this liberal thing and rules become conservative thing and we need to break. That meant, I agree we need to destroy. I mean, they're just the way America set up. Like honestly, liberals are screwed. I tend to agree with you. I lived in the peninsula. I've actually never lived in the city of with all over the Bay Area for the last 15 years, never lived in San Francisco, but obviously worked there for a long time, and we just moved a year ago. My wife and my daughter and I to the East Bay. It's the same thing It's like my came you into the city in an hour,

but we're way closer to Tahoe. She's from the Central Valley, which is totally different culturally of part of the state. So I agree with you. But I guess to push back a little bit, Yeah, people that are bullish on cities, I think what they would say is, over the next 500,000 years, there's gonna be hundreds of new cities and cities will actually replace maybe larger states and countries who are struggling at kind of the federal level, struggling at that scale, you more and that cities will provide optionality so you can kind of vote with your feet, move where you want. And it certainly like in Africa, Asia Yeah, that might be where most of the city sprout up.

But I think the bullish case for cities is there's gonna be more of them. They're going to be built in a different way than San Francisco's of the world, which are having problems or yeah, you know, the Beijing's or that Moscow's air would have you. Yeah, that air so burdened by the honors political system. What was your sponsor? People that z at about city. I think that could be right. I think what we'll end up singles will both be right. Well, there will be a weird way that we live. Tow us would be incredibly foreign. Sure. And it's somehow means we're both correct.

Somehow that's kind of what? Well, I don't want both to be right. Yeah, I wanted it to be great. You want cities to be great, and cities need innovation and disruption. And so new cities competing with the warm ability yeah, is a good thing. But then the ability to be like you know what? I'm gonna live in the middle of nowhere. I'm gonna live. I'm gonna live like up in the hills. Yosemite. You should be able to be able to deal with that stuff. And I think what will probably happen is a single life will encompass malt multiple.

Like you'll do three months here. Three months, their taxes will have to evolve. I think the whole concept of being a citizen of a country is weird or will be weird over time. Because what if you're three months, three months like, where do you? Why would you pay taxes well and only they really the u S. There's something I agree with Trump on. I think Trump said this way we should get rid of the the U. S. Taxes all U S. Citizens, no matter where you live. Yeah, it should be universal.

It's like a city that I pay Maurine in one area versus another kind of doesn't make sense. So yeah, I think there's a lot. There's a lot of but yeah, it's that's one. And then I would say I think the I would say the sort of vegetarian trend and vegan trend is not gonna happen. Yeah, I think there's like this universal idea that meat will be a thing of the past. I'm just pretty skeptical. Think it takes significant share? I think it'll be big. I think you'll be like 2030 40%. But I don't think eating meat will be unethical. I think thats unlikely to go away, and I think there's nothing wrong with this idea that we kill animals. I think we'll likely see a like a reversion to the mean a little bit on.

That's the long term. I also just think in general, like, for example, let's say I go from eating red meat 10 times a week, toe one time a week, which is roughly what I've done, if you like. I'm 90% of Egon. Yeah, so I'm, like, pretty good. I have some friends and some acquaintances that are vegans, and they're pretty bullish, I think with beyond me,

typo and all that stuff the future of veganism. But my perspective actually is I don't have the same exact worldview than them on that particular issue, but I respect it. I respect anyone that puts their money where their mouth is similarly actually. And I've had this discussion with them, and it's kind of a bit of a weird thing to say to a vegan. I have more respect for the hunter that goes and has respect for the animal and goes and kills his own food in the wilderness and really utilizes every aspect of the animal, then paying someone else to do that now, Yeah, I don't have an issue with that morally, But if I did, if I did have a moral problem with it, yeah, that's the one of the weakest positions, and I actually I'm sort of moving in the direction of I don't need to meet all the time. And actually,

it's not even unethical concern. It's more like a health concern, like I don't want to be eating too much red meat. And so I think there's a reduce it Terry in middle ground. Yes, I agree. I agree on reversion to the mean, probably being the outcome there. Yeah, so I think it'll be interesting to see how that plays out. I also just think we don't really know the environmental effects and health effects of some of this vegan production. Like, I'm not convinced I'm a kind of a paleo type person. I believe in Lindy kind of eating habits. I mean, impossible burn.

It's great. It's I think it's a good thing overall, but you look at the ingredients list on that thing, and I'm like, I'm not convinced from the early days. From a health standpoint, it doesn't seem like a net that yeah, the healthy thing to do here is probably just have a salad to say we're just devastated, but not to have Yeah, I have a tweet that I've never tweeted or I thought that I've never tweeted because I'm scared of the of the of the onslaught. Yeah, but, ah, it's basically something along the lines of, like the healthiest people I know are either vegans or only eat meat. Yeah,

like I think both side can work and be healthy, Sure, but in general it's a paleo type, people that I know. It's more the idea that it's something you're aware of an intentional about then, like this what? You whatever. But if you do, either you're probably fine, right? You know, because there's, um, intentionality behind it. I agree. These next two questions I think you've already answered,

so I think I'll probably skip him. What's the problem you're concerned about? The most people aren't or what's a problem? Most people are concerned about that you aren't. I honestly don't think climate change that big of a deal compared to what most people think. I mean, I'm using the anchor of like I'm burning like the world is ending in six years of 12 years, Bernie said. Something like this. The thing is, I don't know what they actually mean by it, either. They say something like there's a point of no return on point of no return sure which I I think historically we've had a point of no return for a while. Is my guest actually just re watched Al Gore's and Inconvenient Truth, and he actually nothing he says there is, like wrong.

I just think we don't really know the impact. And I wish we could have more agreement on that. Like, for example, the ice caps are melting 100% totally inarguable. We don't really know what that means. If you look at what Al Gore was implying. He never actually said this, but what he was kind of implying, at least when I was watching it recently, he was implying that like CO two, uh, he was making connection between like ice caps, melting 02 levels in the atmosphere and global warming as a sort of temperature and saying that there's like an insane correlation between co two. Since then, we have not seen actually it 02 levels and average temperatures being so aligned,

which was kind of the scary thing about that movie was like it was literally going up in this kind of sick look up into the right and about, and I'm like, whoa, like literally he takes the crane and he goes up on the crane. And if you look at that, the graph hockey sticks in a very intimate. It's literally like the Earth will be a ball of fire in a certain amount of time, which obviously, like you're taking it. You know, the scale is long time. I don't remember the exact times go, but I just think that's sort of apocalyptic attitude, eyes not super effective. And also, I think we just need to really get around to the idea that,

like it is an agency, as I mentioned, like, I have a lot more respect for agency, as I used to, and I didn't do believe that sort of the ultimate answer is technology and empowering people to make decisions about their lives. And people should eat less red meat. Probably yes, but forcing people or saying it's immoral or I just don't think it's effective and saying like it's all the rich corporations and stuff that are causing climate change. I'm like, Well, who pays them? We do. We drive consumers, customers pay them. You can't get rid of you just can't.

You would literally just and this is I think the fear on Bernie Sanders is you'd literally just destroy industries. Sure, because of the heightened urgency around the thing that I don't love about the climate change debate is you can't have one like you can't actually have any sort of discussion. Discussion we're having now is it's also impossible to run any tests on right. The earth is a single system. There's no counterfactual. We still can't predict the weather tomorrow. So, like we can't I mean, it's like just a fact. So I think that we just don't know and scientists will tell you that, like they'll say, Look, these things are happening. We don't know the impact of it. These as the honest answer.

Ah, last question. What's the best piece of advice you've ever received? It's the advice I give everybody, which is like super boring, and I think everyone hates hearing it, but it's just like just start like whatever you want to do, like you have to do it. I really believe that unless that doing leads to death or something like unrecoverable, everything else is kind of gonna make you stronger, and there's no secrets. I interfaced in a lot of different politics and business and like creators and creators, sub divides until you know musicians and filmmakers and comedians and you look at any path and it's you do a lot of it. You get really good. You get feedback. You put it out there.

You do that a bunch of times. Eventually, like you have an audience that wants to buy your shit. You do it. You're independent. You do whatever you want. You know, that's like the Joe Rogan story that's like the novel story. That's my story. That's the J K rolling story. It's the pretty common story. It's probably been similar for a while, and so I think a lot of people they just hunger for knowledge is I think the downside of Twitter, I think, is it gets easy toe procrastinate that way, and you think you're getting better and smarter and right now we're actually doing anything.

The knowledge without the application's pretty empty and worthless, and it's like, What's the point? And I think it's fine to be like, Look, this is fun. It's entertainment for me. That's kind of how as long as you acknowledge that, that's what it is. But if you're pretending that this is helping you like, there's a pocket I love called writing excuses and its meta because if you're listening, this podcast cause you going to write. But it's like, Look, if I want to write books and gets the way I'm going to do that is by writing hundreds of thousands of words, there's no real other way around it.

It seems like from the e mails and mostly the EMS that I get, like people are looking for an out of hard work, and it's like, No, sorry. But I think if you, if you fall in a ball and stuff the number one thing I feel like you should take away from the vault is like he has a C s degree and he knows how to code. Yeah, and I think a lot of people follow him and like it, really about all the other stuff in the spirituality. And I'm like, Yeah, but this guy is telling you to scale yourself and like writing, encoding and producing content or building technology and software is the best way to do that in our world. So ignoring that, but you're ignoring the most important thing,

he says. Sure and listening to all the other stuff. But actually that thing is really, really, really, really not telling everyone. They should do anything, really. But, like, just just, you know, the only way things in life we're gonna compound is if you start, you need to start and you need to go through the ups and the downs and you do that and you're persistent enough with it. You will see the compounding effect of effort. Exactly.

I think it's in almost inevitable unless you're your effort is so Assam tonic. But it's really true, I think, especially in podcasting, writing already, anything. Software kind of enabled. You're always going to see what kind of a curve Elin year growth or an s curve or something like that. Government is certainly seeing it like I just stuck it with it long enough, and it's like, Oh, shit, Maybe there's something in there, after all, Total, Who knows so well,

thanks for joining me on the podcast has been amazing. Yeah, it's so cool to meet someone for the first time, just recorded. I actually only done that a couple times. It's been a lot of funds that thanks for Thanks for your welcome.

That was really fun. We appreciate you taking the time to join us for this episode of the Paradox podcast raining for commute length conversations with original thinkers that will push your perspective and pull you into the marketplace of ideas. If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to check out our previous episodes and episode number seven. I chatted with venture capitalists and former journalist Catherine Boyle, but the rise of citizen journalism amidst the breakdown of institutional trust apologies front of Austin's coverage of the Corona virus and her opinion that we're about to enter a golden age of journalism. Well, it's interesting cause we're talking about this in the U. S. Context. And what I love about the biology story is that Hugh is somewhat railing against the Chinese press or lack thereof. I mean, one of the things that he's pointing out is that you know, a lot of the misinformation that's happening, or the reason why you need to be a citizen journalist when you're talking about Corona virus is because there's a lot of misinformation coming from the state, and, you know,

I think the citizen journalism that we've seen globally over the last decade because of Twitter has been extraordinary and necessary, particularly in places that don't have a First Amendment. The shock that we're seeing now into your point about you know, the, you know, CEOs kind of fighting back. I think that's surprising to institutions because they've always held so much power. And I, you know, I think we'll definitely see more of that. But I want Oh actually saying that, you know, it is a former journalistic. This is a weird thing to say in some ways, but I actually do think we're entering another golden age of journalism. People always talked about kind of the advertising era where journalists could do these incredible stories in a centralized fashion.

I think what we're seeing now is that a multitude of voices are going to be constantly debating in a public spear, and that's going to lead people to make their own decisions. We already have to question everything, and that's a good thing. In Episode six, we chatted with author and entrepreneur Kamal Ravi con about how your internal mentality can really shake your external reality.

I think you know what? There's something bigger than me going on something bigger and this animal self, whatever that is. You know, I don't think that the software that would run around and hard was designed to figure

the whole thing out. But it's been trying to figure this out forever, and there is something there. So the way I look

at is, how does it make it practical? How do I make this kind of knowledge practical? The one thing that helps is it. Actually, it brings me back to more, more. Okay,

this is the case, then the software that I'm running the inside effects affects the whole thing. That area have, like work on the inside. The outside gets better. A quick housekeeping note. We just launched a new Web site for the podcast at Paradox podcast dot Co, which will have all episodes and everything you need to know about the podcast. If you enter email address and subscribe, you'll get new episode sent directly to your inbox 1 to 2 days early, and you can always drop us a line on the contact form. We read every single message and really value constructive feedback. That's a wrap for this episode of the paradox Podcasts If you'd like to connect, you can follow me on Twitter at Kyle to bits. If you enjoyed the episode, please rate review s and iTunes to spread the word until next time. Take care.