we have to do something where we had to spit into a tube to isolate DNA on. I think I was new to it. So I thought I'd demonstrate and they realized how impossible is while teaching. So I didn't do that again. I will demonstrate.

Prepare a bachelor. Spend all morning speaking. It's

not a nice

Hello and welcome back to the point of science podcast podcast that uses the tried and tested formula off scientists, plus beer equals banter for your entertainment each week. If you're tuning in for the first time, Welcome. Where have you been to make you feel at home? Allow us to introduce ourselves. I'm Callum Davidson, and I'm Jim Hate Can this podcast accompanies the excellent point of Science Festival? Jim hit me with an elevator pitch point of science festivals, a science vessel that brings science the people like a pint of science. Festivals of Science Festival brings sites to the people by inviting researchers to give fascinating talks at the local pubs cafes for three nights each May this year, it's Monday, the 20th Wednesday. The 22nd point of science talks it for everybody, so you needn't consider yourself a scientist to enjoy one of our events. Tickets just £4. For that,

you get to spend an evening filling your brain with knowledge on your stomach with whatever you choose. Head over to plant science that cut UK to see what's on offer across the UK or, if you're listening from further afield, then had to punt sites dot com Another gate Your own country's events. Now, today we're making our first pop return visit. We find ourselves once again at the salutation in in Manchester, where this time we're catching up with professor of immunology on public engagement expert Sheena Cruickshank. Gina works on the immune system. More specifically, she looked at the cross talk between different immune cells and how the shapes are immune response when we encounter something that really shouldn't be in our bodies, we sat down for a plant with Sheena to talk about some of the unexpected features of the immune system, the hot topic of the Microbiome as well as the glamorous world of fecal transplants, which are exactly what they sound like delightful as well as the science. We also found out more about Sheila's award winning public engagement work and our thoughts on life as a scientist, so has ever get comfy.

Crack open a drink to accompany this episode on Douse Your Mind In a refreshing point off science, this podcast is made possible with help from our sponsors. Brilliant or a great place to head if you want to learn something new every day. Brilliant Dog teaches your science from the ground up by setting questions and challenges every day and explaining the science behind them. Brilliant dogs Newsfeature Daily challenges Helps make learning a daily habit. Every day they published several problems. They provide a quick and fascinating view into maths, logic, science, engineering or computer science. So if you're inspired by what you hear today and you want to learn a little of the science behind it yourself, check out brilliant dog or download. The APP is a link in the description, and the 1st 200 people subscribe will get 20% off that premium plan. You get asked an awful lot. I expect to explain the immune system to people on time.

Time again. In fact, it happened in your life. Scientific upset people jump immediately to the military analogies, so we thought it might be fun to see if you're able to insult of just a minute style. Do you think you can explain to us what you do with no hesitation? Repetition? I'm not using any military analogies system on.

It's what I do or what the system

is, I think probably start, general. That's even the people listening have no knowledge of the immune system, and then you can boil down leading people in this room.

Okay, so your bodies evolved to deal with lots off germs and things, and your immune system needs to have to recognize those, but also needs to build to recognize the other things that come into our bodies that are good for us. Like allegedly our food, a cz well as the microbiome kind microbes that help us digest our food and make lots of important bits, mints and things. So the immune system decides which is good, which is bad on my research. Looks at how the immune system understands which is good and which is bad, because I could be really important to understand why sometimes we get long term inflammation that we can't get rid off.

Okay, that was pretty good. Yeah, It was a repetition of just getting which occasion I can see how easy to slip into sort of the invaders and fighting often or the military target.

I think the overwhelming job of the system is actually is peacekeeper because most of the time is ignoring. So it's going No, this is good, even though you might have eaten really interesting spicy curry, I don't want to have a mean response on. The Microbiome is doing so many important things for our

health. And occasionally, of course, we do actually respond badly to things that are actually fine. And that's where you have auto immune issues. On DTH, immune system becomes even more complicated than it is. Just a defense mechanism plays a role in things.

Well, I think that things to remember is that all the mechanisms that you mean sister has to deal with pathogens is basically what's happening when human systems going wrong. So when an allergy is reacting at something harmless and in order to immunity is reacting against you and again, that's something that should normally ignore. But it's using all its weapons. But now against you,

some of the stuff you've been us to come and speak to the media about. Most recently, there was the recent tragic incidents of mislabeling of food leading to some deaths from quite severe allergic reactions. I mean, I got the sense from the answers you were giving the time that we actually still don't really quite know why Allergies seems to be on the rise. I mean, is that the case? So we're seeing more cases of severe allergic reactions

so globally Well, it's not necessarily globally. Eso Allergies are where your body is wrapped into something harmless should be ignoring it. Onda. We are seeing these increase, particularly in developed countries, so it's not necessarily globally on dhe. The reasons we get analogy or partially genetics the reserve genetic factor. So if you have family member who gets analogy, you're a little bit more likely to get an allergy. But if you look in identical twin stories, we can see that that doesn't guarantee that you'll get an allergy. So that means the environments importance. The environment is accounting for a lot of the reasons for this on what is that? So they've been lots of ideas about is it because in these more developed countries, and he's particularly in urban cities. We've become very clean,

and we don't necessarily get all the infections that we used to get in childhood with smaller families. So this was one idea that was bandied around for a long time by David Straka and who's a doctor and optical. The hygiene hypothesis were then moved on to sort of thinking about, Well, what is it about the microbes that inhabit us? It could be the types of infections we get or something to do with the Microbiome under a little bit more evidence, perhaps to support that. That's the old friends hypothesis of the idea that certain microbes become my friends because they educate our system. But now we also think that the microbes around us are importance, and things that were breathing in and we're exposed to on this could also be important. You think about pollutants and factors like that because they could be having massive effects. And certainly if you have something like asthma, you are more likely to get worsening of symptoms in polluted conditions. There's lots of lots of evidence.

My houseman, for example, is a very loaded to peanuts, but also mine allergic toe, lots of other little things. You're more likely to be allergic to multiple things. Is there sort of some relationship between

all of them? Well, I think that the relationship maybe that you're perhaps a little bit predisposed to be allergic, and you can be allergic to more than one thing. But some people may ever be allergic to one thing. Why that happens. We don't know. And sometimes it might be, because the thing that you're immune system's reacting to look similar in more than one instance. So allegedly and I might be getting is wrong with a particular tree. Poland. That looks a little bit like the thing we wrapped in strawberry. So often people think it's birch tree Poland will react to strawberries is welcome. They look like it could be because of that are just be unlucky. And you've got lots of the kind of combination of factors environment, genetic. There

is literally your body, just thinking it's something that looks a bit like thinks is under attack and just goes, 00

yes, well, he's using is using normal mechanisms and mechanisms that uses are the mechanisms that particularly adapted to deal with things that parasitic worms. It's really girls getting reds, parasitic mucus, the muscle contractions that you have. This is old brilliant, pushing a warm for your horrible, hairy, up to something harmless

on a fundamental level in allergy versus infection. We're talking about them as two things you mean system reacts to, but they're actually quite fundamentally different, right? So, to me, an infection, it's something nasty and buggy. Getting inside you and your body's like that's gonna make meal, whereas an allergy is just literally your body reacting Thio. Some kind of molecule gets in there that it just, you know, I'm trying to explain. Listen, I'm getting this right.

It's using the same is using the same approach as it would to deal with something horrible. So you're immune systems. I guess it's really got a bit

confused is going to say it just is there no sort of evolutionary benefit toe? Why allergies would have evolved as a thing. Is it just a quirk of this defense system has got

it wrong? Well, I think this is where things like the old friends hypothesis really came into play. Looking at the links between people having worms and people know having allergies. It's not strictly true, but I think the ideas of broadly speaking, the bigger correlation between still having worms and no having allergies vs saying the U. K. Where we've got Red Devil or for worm infections we used to have. We look just a few 100 years ago were doing research at moment at Quarry Bank Mills, a history biology project Partnership on we're Looking at The Apprentice is there, and we can see evidence that these apprentices had worm infection. So that's around 18 60.

Can we define the old friends? Hypothesis? Kes. I've heard that we've said a few times now. I'm not sure that I'm clear on it. Still, So the old friends hypothesis

is that the types of infection that we're exposed to are the types of microbes that inhabit us have changed, and they were important for educating armies system creating balance in our means system.

So a simple I'm thinking the microbiome when I hear that, is that pretty much the old friends

hypothesis is microbiome and or infections, right? Okay. The other fact, of course, coming to play with the microbiome is the diet that weeks our diets have changed well, so you can see how all these Maltese factors are coming together

to create. So our bodies must be a bit stressed all the time, things that it's not usedto happening

like it used to be. Oh, please, people. And we know the Western diet isn't particularly brilliant for us.

So Michael by is kind of like, ah, hot topic, right? T crop up almost everywhere in everything from like giving us resistance to poisons, thio certain conditions you wouldn't even necessarily associate with. I mean, is this one of your special ISMs? An envelope right now. Do you spend a lot of time focusing on the microbiome?

Yes. We absolutely do spend time focusing on the microbiome. We're really interested to understand how the changes in the microbiome will change the relationship with us. So looking at the cells that sit on top of our barrier sites that are skin and a gut and also the immune cells, how can change the way that they're the reacting? So we definitely do a lot. But I'm not a microbiologist. It's really looking at that immune.

But this is what I was thinking. It it seems a bit unfair to quit you too heavily on the microbiome being is that probably encompasses quite a lot of different kinds of the microbiome is kind of a plethora of different organisms that line our guts essentially right. So or is it everything you think is a little beasties?

It's all the microbes that live in, on and on us.

We've got the entire interns.

Higher body so gots is where most of the microbes are. But these could be that yeast viruses, Fung guy, Few parasites, quite possibly as well as bacteria is just at the moment. We know most about the bacteria.

I totally jump straight to go. Whenever I think about it, I just think

that's where the bulk of them are. The bulk of them are in the large intestine, but you have a lot of microbes elsewhere on your body and the really, really diverse We got 38 trillion per person. That's a lot

of people around the African less than six point Bailey. I can picture about 100 people before I get that a lot. Yeah, most so most of the little the little friends that we've got hanging around is there like a ratio of beneficial thio ones that have maybe a negative effect.

Well, I think that question is really bright, thinking about what what the microbes are doing in a certain place and the balance off them. So if you take something like your skin, you've got all these different zones you might cross, not the same across your skin. So if you look at your oily zones, they've got particular communities looking. It folds, increases. They have another very different nations. You can versus this very dry areas, like the back of your arm, understand what they will have. They will have very diverse populations in the back of your arms, but there's much, much fewer off them on then.

If you factor in over the moisturizers, use sun exposure closed chafing. That's going to change the microbial community so you can imagine the diversity you've got Stephen on your skin's. If you take something like stuff a caucus effort dermatitis, which is a really calling skin bacteria, it's fine savers on the back of our arm. But if it gets into your urethra when you're having a catheter, it causes really bad infections. So yes, it's a command in the wrong place. It's really problematic, and even things like Clostridium difficile, which famously cause really nasty diarrhea. Many of us will have that as part of our normal microbial community in our gut. But when that becomes sort of really dominant and you haven't got enough diverse bacteria to compete with it, then it can cause the problems that causes. So sometimes it's about that balancing act.

It's like survival of the fittest going on inside your body

area, and it's about time in community. So, generally speaking, we want lots of diversity. So they're living in harmony, and they're all kind of nurturing and supporting each other. They're producing different factors that will help another bacteria and so on and so on.

Well, I have a really stupid question, but why don't we make ourselves ill the whole time? If there's these colonies that can live in one place and be fine but cause problems in the other, I think you sort of answer that by saying it's to do with the balance

I suppose, to do with the balance on. Also, I think one of the important distinctions that you're mean system uses to help to tell threat from benefit is that something that is threatening will also cause damage. So your immune system can detect no microbial patterns that are very highly conserved, but it can also detect damage patterns on those combination. Of those two things will be more likely to trigger a parole inflammatory response, whereas if you just got commences in the not borrowing down into your and she kind of barrier sights than probably be fine,

I have an immune system question that I've been wanting to ask and you might get after a lot. This might be a stupid pop culture question, but is the five second rule real? If you dropped a piece of food on the floor, you still okay to eat it. If you pick up before so five seconds

of God, we'll think about it. We're constantly transferring bacteria between us. A. Ll the time every time you touch the surface. Every time you talk, every time you sneeze, you're exchanging several 1,000,000 bacteria, and that's happening very quickly. So, yes, when you drop something, it's going to be picking up some bacteria. The question is whether or not they're they're harmful, I guess

I mean harmful. It is three seconds. Yeah,

in a kind of nice, nice fat of horrible salmonella

Go for it. But the fact that I am still here alive today means that it can't be

exactly I thinkit's using common sense. You know, if it's toes to bar side Daniel pick up in. It's really kind

of. That's just a nice Thio. You talk for two seconds in Gina's lab, possibly immediately. Assassin Microbiome goes as we are all carrying this host of organisms the whole time. Does it not get obliterated the first time you take a course of antibiotics for an infection that's got into you or even a thorough shower?

Well, I mean, I think so. For my for antibiotics, it will depend on the antibiotics. So, yes, it will knock down some of the bacteria you can't blade or bacteria. If you yes, you will definitely knocked down down. Some of them and studies have looked at the effects of of antibiotics at different ages. So what? Particularly if you're very young. Still, under the age of four, antibiotics will have a more dramatic effect on your microbiome because it's still forming. So it's going to be much more vulnerable to that.

But actually, in adults, our microbiome is a relatively resilient and they will bounce back. And so people have looked in the after about seven days or so. That's where that's the exact accurate time. The Microbiome does seem to bounce back relatively

well on DSO that's bounced back to the sort of state was in before in that individuals. I'm assuming we don't all have the same rough microbiome,

this sort of trends that are the same. So, for example, your guts very dominate, like Australia house and firma cuties, but that they will always sort of subtle variations between people, which will depend on your diet. Also, families tend to be a bit more similar to each other on that kind of thing. So you sort of get you do see kind of clusters, and also we look in mice. We can tell which cage the mice have been, and we could tell which mom they've had, because there's a really strong maternal effect. I'm not sure that that's necessary. Truths will turn into adults for humans, but certainly Children would be much more likely to be like the

parents. Could you tell what in the world someone is from by that micro buyer? Would someone in say, like Australia have a different one to someone, no whales

in another? That's a really interesting question, I think. I think at the moment we probably don't know enough about it. However, there's been studies looking at a group, same broken Fasso groups in the U. K. And we can see real differences there. But that's depending on the data. And more than anything else, you may see some differences in skin, don't you? There's so many studies looking, I'm aware off

we spent so much time on this podcast. We're probably starting to share my crib. I,

of course, you get from your pets as well. You know when you survive, that's an interesting kind of corn. Dre. If you look a clean versus a dirty toilet, see the clean seat allegedly cleanse. It might actually have more fecal matter on it than the dirty one, because over time, as you people say, it's all nets. They replace their compete that fecal those vehicle microbes, which are largely anaerobic. They like they don't like oxygen, so gradually dialed from you. Replace your skin ones stop it. Damn it is which of course, is less damaging. Glorious. So technically after time,

don't clean it

clean. You know, it's interesting to think that maybe

so what sorts of things, then does a out of kilter microbiome or even just a certain type of microbiome predisposed to what sorts of things could

that affect? The easiest way to imply lots, lots of studies is that, generally speaking, less diversity in your micrograms. That's varied. Microbiome tends to be associated with a lot more conditions. So, for example, and you see changes in things like inflammatory bowel disease, things like skin wounding, which is something that we look at. We found that you know, just having an imbalance of bacteria that star. We have a lot of one particular type changes. The wind healing response changes the dynamics of it. So there's all sorts of things,

and when they look at octogenarians, you know people have aged really, really, really well. They have really nice, diverse bacteria in their guts. But when they compared it with people who are kind of bit frail or not doing so well, they have very, very hardly die versatile.

It's so hard to tease out the causal relationship there. I guess there must be so many differences between

I think it comes down to the fact that the microbes are all working in communities, so they're having sort of set functions and sort of sustaining each other. So if you're knocking out sort of functions, then that's gonna have an impact on supporting all sorts of things for your health, like supporting your gut barrier So you got barrier relies on that relationship with the microbes, supporting the way your immune cells work. Certain microbes in your gut. I've been shown to be really important for helping you develop things like regulatory tea sales, which can down your immune response so you can imagine all of these things getting a little bit knocked. If you can't have the right community

as if the pirates, I feel obliged to ask, How do they feel about points?

I don't think they like too much. I think that has lots of sort of knock on effects. I do believe that might be important in helping you metabolize aspects of your alcohol, but I must confess it's not an area I've tried to think. Of course, microbes. Very important through helping make Getting my strong

eating strange fermented foods is supposed to be great, isn't it? I saw a whole talk on the microbiome That was incredible, but at the very end was slightly offset when him a slight breeze. Portishead sponsored by Yeah Colt, which made us old freely Lovett cynical. I suspect the science was still great. It was just something about having the yogurt there at the very end, just a little bit like

this. Two different things to unpick this. We've got prebiotic foods which are foods that kind of nurture your microbiome so they would be things like the fibrous foods I referred to. So impulses and things particularly good versus probiotic foods, which are about trying to reintroduce our introduce potentially beneficial bacteria on seems to be lots of ways. E people try and do that, and there's lots of questions as to which forms are better and whether the bacteria gets to where it needs to get to and whether, in fact, that could actually be quite damaging in some incidents so that the researchers really split about probiotics. If I'm brutally honest, study say no. There really no brilliant, and some studies say they are. So I think it's worth sort of thinking about what you're taking them for, what the benefit could be. So some study said that could help that kind of, you know,

slightly on settled tummy. You might have after antibiotics. Some spacey? Yes, some study. See? No, we've actually done some studies back in skin again, where we've taken extracts from probiotic bacteria on. We've used these deceived they can impact on pathogenic bacteria on scan, look at skin barrier as well. So we have shown that the extracts of these bacteria's of lies aids can stop pathogenic bacteria growing so well seem to really have quite damaging effect on the pathogenic bacteria. Andi even then help the skin of ethereal cells. The cells that line skin kind of knit back together more quickly. So the combi, some really interesting potentials from them. But we're no applying like bacteria were applying something that's within the

So I was a cesarean birth on. I remember chatting to you. It was actually my osteopaths who I saw it for a while, told me that will have had a huge effect on my microbiome, and it could have influenced all manner of aspects of my health. So how does that work? Your your microbiome is affected by how you're delivered.

Yes, there's a Caesarean birth. You more likely to, at least initially, half skin tight microbes colonising you. Where is if you have a vaginal birth? You more likely to have vaginal and fecal your crops colonising you in that initial stage and then the next sort of things that build up. Or how your feds, whether your breast fed or bottle fed again, that will change the types of microbes that you will be acquiring. So it's really going to be changing the establishment of those initial kind of microbes that that sort of turn into your diverse microbial community. But that's also then shaped by the people. You hang out with a CZ well, as the foods that you'll go on to eat on the pets that you go on to couple on the five second rule toys. So all of these other factors will come into play. So it it may. I don't know if if anybody has actually looked genuinely as to whether it has a huge long term impact, but it certainly Will it affect your initial development of your microbiome?

Never even occurred to me that that's obviously like, Yeah, you get a kind of different first introduction to the world of germs based

on how you bond, although there is some evidence is starting to emerge that the placenta is not completely stare out now. And there could be a little bit microbial transfer happening right? Might be microbial products. And that might be important for starting to kind of kick start things in our body.

One of the ways to study the microbiome is obviously Thio Have a look at Ooh, and this is something that once again, you must get slightly irritated every interview. I wonder how long you can. But one of things that was reading about Waas fecal transplants on the whole world of people transplant. So should we believe the hype around fecal transplants and maybe festival? Yeah, Yeah,

I think you need to say what

they think is I. I honestly don't know. Close

to what it sounds like, close to what it sounds like essentially a fecal microbial transporting the idea behind it is about replacing your own gut microbiome With that of somebody else's, which you would usually do with an enema, perhaps my antibiotics as well to really try and kind of flush a lot of your in your indigenous microbes on dhe. Then you air blitz up microbes. It is with a blender. Really? On. You re insert those in a variety of ways. I would rather not go into s Oh, this This is a genuinely imported medical procedure. So we talked really start about Clostridium difficile infection. Now, if you have that clostridium difficile overgrowth in your gut, you're having really nasty. Got information. Really awful diary.

You're very, very unwell, and it doesn't respond well to antibiotics. But if you give somebody a fecal microbiota transplant, they get a brand new my group bio under absolutely fine. Well, but that has to be done onto medical supervision. But you have to screen whoever your you said. You make sure that you're not putting anything on toward into your microbes, and there have been unattended consequences. One person, for example, became a beast. She got the microbiome from a sibling who was beasts on dhe. She although she was then she became a beast after she had the microbiome because Mike about changes something like You can't change. Change that, although that's the content of one. But there is sort of evidence to show the Microbiome could be important in

obesity has been shown in other species.

Yes, definitely. There's also some interest in the kind of well being market

blitzing up their own

amazing people. Microbial transplants because has been linked to so many conditions. Changes in my crime linked to obesity, toe allergy to auto immune diseases, to depression, to anxiety. So people will try this a

sort of in this whole field must be so many snake oil. People that are willing Thio grab one little sort of bit that they've heard and use it to try and spend a whole story about. It sounds kind of dangerous.

The other thing that we were quite interested in the lab is it's not just the poo that could be important. If you look in the large intestine, yours have a really thick mucus lining that sits on top of your sales, and you've got loads of microbes that reside in that on there so close to to us that they're probably the most important ones for our health. If you look in a poo sample, they're not. The ones are terribly well represented in that crew sound pope. So it could be more important to understand which ones are in the mucus and drying. Check that we're actually putting them back because they might not be affected by fecal transplant.

See, just splits the poo drunk it. Yeah, that's not even the right way. She is a fountain of knowledge when it comes to our innermost goings on. But how did we get so complex? How did these incredible microbiome has developed inside us and all over this? This podcast is made possible with help from brilliant dog. A great place. The head if you want to learn something new every day Brilliant August, A website and app which teaches you science from the ground up by second daily challenges on explaining science behind them, Brilliant O'Rourke helps make learning a daily habit. Every day they publish challenges to provide a quick and fascinating view into maths, logic, science, engineering or computer science. Each problem provides you with skills and framework.

You need to tackle it so you learn the concepts by applying them. They're quizzes If you want to learn more in a community of fellow problem solvers. If you get stuck on brilliant dog, have courses on computational biology, which can help you learn the basics of calculating what makes us tick, which is a great place to start off. We put a link to Brilliant Organ, The episode notes for this podcast, the 1st 200 people to sign up through the link will get 20% off their premium plan. I did a bit off oncology, which is obviously science, pertain thio cancer. I know the immunotherapy is a potentially very promising area of study. So again, rather me blathering on what is immunotherapy against cancer, how does that work?

So immunotherapy is a way to dry and use our mean system to treat forever disease. In this case, cancer immunotherapy is also used to treat other diseases like allergy and all community. So it's understanding how the immune system works and then using it for therapy that's really long winded. So in there's lots of different approaches that are being used in cancer. One approach is taking the cells educate the adaptive me response to educate the tea and be sales, particular the T cells. If we take those cells out of a patient on, we take the tumor out of a patient and then mash up the tumor and put it back in those cells and the so called dendritic cells. The ideas. You put the dendritic cells back in the patient and they will know, know how to educate the T cells to start killing tumors. So this is called dendritic cell therapy. And it was the dream of Ralph Steinman, who won the Nobel Prize of a few years ago. And unfortunately he died before he could receive it, and he discovered dendritic cells.

And then he went on to to sort of pilot this this type of approach on. Unfortunately, initially, it didn't work very well, So although it was really safe, it didn't work as well as was hoped. And it turns out that that's because as we understand more about oncology and cancer, we know things like the tumor will have lots of different sites on it that could have an effect on the immune system. It could be done in Danny immune system. We have to think about which bits of the tumor we use. We also know more about the immunology. We? No, no. There's lots of flavors of dendritic cells, so it's really important to think about putting in the right dendritic cells.

We also know more about how 100 excels get switched on. So now, with all of these modifications that we can, do you really think about this being something that will be used more? It is being used in trials. Another type of noble, prize winning immunotherapy was awarded Nobel Prize last year, and this was the use of checkpoint therapy. So this is taking the idea that your immune system's got lots of checks and balances so it doesnt inappropriately react. Jammers are pretty good, making them have those checks and balances, essentially putting the brakes on the immune response

and going no, because ideal your body would spot that cancer cells healthy.

So cancer it might be putting those brakes on. Now that we understand what those checkpoints are in in T sales of T lymphocytes again, that means we can block those breaks from happening so that we can keep the T cells switched on, which will enable them to kill the tumor. We've discovered or we know me to. Major top targets have been scarred. One's called City Lay four, and the other one's called PT one. So they were jointly that the people have been working on that we jointly awarded the Nobel Prize last year on because they're different target. She could apply them both together, and you could even look a scenario where they could be implied in combination dendritic cell therapy or a conventional cancer therapy. So that's just some of the examples.

Obviously, there are a huge range of extremely exciting things about immunology wants you within that field. But what motivated you to get into immunology? Because, you know, it's quite quite anything, quite a complicated thing. What sent you down

that route? So I when I was quite little. My brother was a lot older than May, and he really, really liked zoology. He was absolutely fascinated by the living world. I don't know how he tolerates it because he was good eight years or sold about May, but he used Thio. Let me come with them on. We go on these hikes down to the beach where we would drop pool all day and he wanted to have a tank at home, which he did up up, ultimately set up that sustained and all these different creatures from from these rock pools. Or he could study them. So he used to talk about them and explain them. He draw them. He got me so fascinated. So I was always coming,

you know, watching him one of my funniest memories. It's seeing my brother. He's balanced, saying he's got his treasures all the way rolled up. He's balancing in this rock pool. It's really deep, and we can see this sort of streak of grease lightning going across the sun because there's actually a kind of flat fish in there. And he was determined to catch it. And it was mostly is him flailing around like a gangly teenager falling over? Well, it's I consisted on the edge of just Laughed on. He didn't catch that a flatfish, you know, lots of really, really vivid memories.

And, you know, we have this whole campaign where my favorite things were the hermit crops they were so cool with legs would appear when they come scuttle away on. We had a couple of current hermit crabs in our tank But then we didn't really have one because the fish could eat. It tried to change it. Shell, So I haven't appreciated at that. Age is Obviously I thought shells looked a bit different Is when they're ready to change the shell? They've outgrown it, they just flip it off and they go find another one, which is usually not such a problem for you. But if they're in a town where there aren't any shells that became pretty fast fish food. So we had to have a kind of big campaign to save the other hermit crab and find the right shell so that we could save the harm it crop which, of course, we did manage to do. And I got to see a hermit crab with no no shell on,

which is very weird, like alien. Really strange, really peculiar pain can shine ease while I remember and I might might might, remembering of six Young So even so interested in that That was my brother's name, and he went off to university to study zoology on. I stayed at home now, unfortunately, when he was away, he came back one year on dhe. He had this lump on his arm, which he gave a name. And then I was jealous because I want along from my arm as well. But unfortunately, lung cancer. So Ian did spend a few years after that being very,

very sick and on well, and I was very confused and very angry, unfortunately, and didn't survive. And But I think this chick, this whole experience of seeing Ian kind of live with cancer and seeing all the effects of the treatments on and really changed my focus, because up to that point, I'd really loved zoology and biology. But now I just thought, Why? Why is his immune response? You know, because I didn't know, even know if I knew what they mean. Respond. But why is this body not dealing with it on?

You know, why do does he get on symptoms he gets when he has all these therapies? So I started looking around at courses and seeing what kind of aspect of biology was going to help me answer some of these questions and immunology was still quite you weren't for many universities that heard it. But I did find a university which cross the Strathclyde that did offer it. But the payback from that was that I had to do a joint honors degree. I had to do by chemistry on dhe immunology. Why selection? But when I start immunology actually studying I did realize this was very much that was just subjects over me. And I'm you know, I'm very lucky. Next, I've got my own lab way, are researching immunology

and it sounds like to some extent, as well as inspiring you as far as choosing immunology goes also, maybe a bit of your kind of love, science, communication and public engagement might come from that time.

Absolutely. That's absolutely the case, I think because I hadn't appreciated that that wasn't the norm to have somebody who would be so endlessly patient. Aziz, my big brother waas on. When I went to university Lot, my flatmates were doing non science degrees losing history and art and things like that, which I thought was amazing. You know, I totally want to know more about what they were doing, and they totally didn't want to know what it was that science is cool and everybody should love science like no, Sheena. It's just hard and wrong and I just made me realize that no everybody had had that scientific A in their life on. If you haven't had that, then maybe science will appear is wrong and hard.

And do you think this is the difficulty factor that because I'm always surprised that it doesn't take more of a kind of center stage culturally. But is that because people are just scared off the school stage?

I think that could be a factor. And I think maybe, you know it's seen is only for the clever people. I certainly wasn't necessarily the cleverest of the best science in high school, particularly not physics. I'm very sorry I really wasn't very good at physics, but I got better. But I think it's the curiosity and the questioning, and that could be true of anything. So I think it's having the confidence to ask questions and not be frightened to get things wrong. And Children, for sure, have that.

But you've been involved in the creation of some pretty cool resource is which I guess do turn what could be not necessarily interesting to everyone science into something interesting. So which of those are you the most

proud of Oh, that's how

hard way listing them.

They're all my little baby's way. They're all happening in a lot of my acne time did. I mean, I think it's really interesting how a science project can involve on have legs. So if I think back when I was starting in Manchester, that's really where I got started doing science communication because I was really wanted to do it, and this was a real opportunity to do is match. The university was very clear. This was something they were interested in, and we were working on parasitic worm infections. Now I already said Start office that these air pretty rare in the U. K. Although I have must have mad met surprising, large way Do you have experience with them? But they are generally speaking pretty rare. So for us to build, share our research and learn from people with experience,

we made a stuff to think about who we were going to work with. So we were really excited about the opportunity to work with a group of immigrant communities in Manchester on Dhe through that, we developed an art science partnership. We went back to that group of people that we've made. All these amazing are rang goalies and streets of Manchester, which was so fun and brought in so many very people. But then, through that, we sort of realised that there was lots of issues around the language of science and the words that we use. So even for people who are learning English, we might not learn scientific or medical English. So then I I worked with lots of PhD students and postdocs to create a bunch of resources on an English teacher who's just amazing. And we created all these English resources that taught you the words but then taught you things like the life cycles of how you got the infections of what your immune response I was doing so you could apply the words on. I'm very proud of that particular work, but through all those interactions and all this, what's been happening over years?

One of the things that emerged was real curiosity from the people. I was working with allergies because they were annoyed. They have allergies and they never have allergies. And I think that was really my my MBA testicles to start thinking more about this question about why allergies occur, which led me to co develop. And again it's working because lots of disciplines as computer science estates scientist except you're involved in this. We co developed with the public an app that could start to capture symptom data for allergies. And then we could use that apricot Britain breathing. We could use the app to see what symptoms were happening at what time, in what place and what other factors were there at the same time stuck to ask questions about the things in the environment that might be important for triggering allergy

symptoms. So is that sort of citizen science style projects in it? So it literally, if I was using the app, I would upload if I started to experience a symptom. And what kind of they do you collect

at that point? Because it's been cold designed, we now know that it needs to be really, really simple to use three so it doesn't take a very long time to you. So all that we record currently, there's an a modification just about to go online, actually, and is sneezing from knows, ice chest breathing so nose eyes breathing on How you feeling on so it's very simple. You just click. Yes. No. Yes. No. And then you get like a little kind of scale Bar 123 said about how bad or worse these are and then you get your own record so you can look back and go. Oh, so last week I was really wheezing.

What was I doing then? So you can ask questions about your your own symptoms, but we get an approximate location data. So then, working with all the environment to scientists. Waken get information about what factors were President

Jim up against, like Poland count and

that sort of different pollutants? Nothing's we're starting to do. The analysis of the first thing we did was analysis to see whether it was sensible data generate sensible data. So the M we published a paper on that look that we looked at things like GP prescription records for for him to histamines, et cetera, and also kind of seasons where we're seeing peak symptoms where they kind of with what we would expect, for example, would receive Big peak in April when we know tree Poland is pretty rife. Receive Big peak in June, when grass, Poland's pretty right, And we do it correlated beautifully with prescription data. So now we're kind of trying tow link that with different pollutants. We've been doing some analysis there. We also got a version that's gonna be launching in Brazil. It's not gonna be. It's much capturing allergies because they don't recognize that allergies air initiative.

They know they get breathing problems. So that's going to be looking at kind of breathing issues. And we're also gonna be looking at tiredness because our our allergy community say tired. This is one of the biggest factor, so there will be an additional parameters. So it's all kind of happening, So I think all the stuff around education still happening. But then we've got this other project. So I just think I'm really lucky to be able to do these things.

If you feel like you have to go out and sort of counter some of the scientifically inaccurate messages that are getting out there, especially with, like what you study, there's a whole lot out there that is probably not spot on. So do you feel the need to somehow counter

at that? Maybe sometimes, yeah, I think that could be really important area as well. People having access to good information. I think, for example, in vaccine advocacy, there's a lot of people are very uncertain and unsure about whether vaccines are safe right for them on by giving good and clear information about, you know, how they worked, what they're doing. You hope that you can start to kind of settle those because we really shouldn't be seeing people dying of measles, which is what we're seeing. Unfortunately,

quite a lot of science communication almost becomes entertainment by simplifying the stories. You know, you look at the front page of a newspaper and it will tell you cures for cancer on the horizon when the scientists, they told that story, would tell it very differently. But to engage people, you always have to give it that story. So how do you tread that line where you

I think I think you've got to be responsible, so you've got to be accurate. I think you also have to be respectful because actually, my experts people are some amazing questions on by necessarily dumbing everything down. You're not giving people the benefit of the doubt, just how clever they are and how quickly they can seize on concepts and build on concepts. So for sure, you have to start simple, but also no lie. It's building kind of the layers of complexity and perhaps enabling them to make their own links. You know, that's one of the things we actually did in them. There was infection education classes that we were doing is we We'd introduce lots of ideas around the immunology, and then we actually had one lesson where we gave them like it wasn't really paper, but it was a simpler version of paper. It was essentially exploring hygiene hypothesis in the old friends hypothesis, and then we ask them what they thought about it,

and then they started discussing the ideas. But it looks like there could be something linked between power sites on the allergies. That's right, and they were coming up with a way we're not telling them, but they were coming out with because they had all the information they were able to build the links.

What you say about not undressed main people who aren't within that science is something we see time and time again. With point of science like these events, you can have. We didn't have anything realized until point of science started to get going. How much of an appetite that wants to actually meet scientists? Some of the issues that people enjoy talking about kind of the more difficult parts of being a scientist. So, for example, for early careers, research is one of the things that comes up a lot is sort of imposter syndrome on the feeling that maybe you've ended up working in the world of science by by accident, you know, actually clever enough to be Oh, no way. I

had a crash in case of that. Just a few weeks ago, I was talking on event in Cambridge. They were lovely, lovely people. But there were a lot of people are noble prizes, their case of imposter syndrome. It

was very, very terrifying Thio thing. Next, we're gonna take it away. I

asked a question about farts from the audio. That was my kind of grandma.

We've all seen it in lectures within departments. In science. You see a professor at the front or our post op for a visiting lecturer giving a talk, and you look around and there's all these people start nodding and confidently sort of strengthen their beards. And actually, you ask after the lecture, Do you understand that? And then I lost him. It's like three in the whole, the whole song trying to catch up on. Some people relax about it to go back to your off scientific genesis. Do you remember publishing your first scientific paper that stuck with you?

Oh gosh, that was so exciting. Yeah, my first paper was about talks Plasma Gandhi, which is a parasitic infection. It's very, very common. Most of us have it. About one in three people in the UK have it forms lifelong affection once we have it. So it's your friend for life. It can infect any mammal that we've looked at, so it's incredibly successful, and you can get it in lots of ways, So the only animal it can sexually replicate it is the cat replicates in the cat gut, so that means the cat is able to excrete get eyes stage of the parasite, which will then become ineffective in the environment. After a few days on,

it will survive in the environment for a remarkably long time. So if you then eat something contaminated with this effective stage cold do assists in the microscopic. You don't know that there. So if you've been gardening and wash your hands or you got some veg, we have washed it properly. You could become infected, and so come any other mammalian species. Once it's inside that we call an intermediate host, it will then change into another form, and it will ultimately insist on form little cysts in your muscle and also the central nervous system in the brain. And so, if you then eat one of these events of post Soviet meet, you can then pick up the infection again. That way. So that's two main routes that we can capture through soil contaminated things or through eating partially cooked meat.

But it's only cats that can. So when it's sitting in all these other organisms, it's just

replicating. But its hapless I'd so it's a sexual replication.

Make that waiting to get back to a carriage, waiting

to go back to the car. There's another route of infection. So somebody was pregnant. It's possible for them to transfer it to the onboard

child. That's the context I've heard of it in that it's really dangerous in situations like that. I also have something in my head about losing eyesight

parts. Yeah, so that's one of the places it couldn't could insist is around the eyes. But typically, Army system will keep those cysts quite well under control. But then the other risk is if your immune system decline so you become immuno suppressed either through infection or through saying immunotherapy layer, then your immune system can decline. So it was one of the biggest causes of death when we have AIDS epidemic years ago. So very famously told me in Trainspotting actually dies off toxoplasmosis, which is why I play that clip to mind graduate students. I teach them toxoplasmosis. Is Scotland reference on? There's been some ideas that this parasite can affect behavior. So if you look in rodents, which, of course are common cat food because parasites insisting in the brain the idea is it's affecting their behavior, it's making them more risks taking the got higher levels of adrenaline decreased opening,

so they just like open spaces. The also kinda get a bit first sexual kick from smelling Katwe so they really like can't wait. Of course, that makes him a little bit more likely to be predated by cats and then the power size black in the cargo get back in the car, complete sexual life cycle. So then the idea has been well, it's also in our brains, and we could be predicted by cats, but not usually domestic. But large cats can also and spread parasite as well s so there have been some researchers that have suggested that there are changes to tiu human behavior as well. However, that research is disputed in the biggest ever study that was done a few years ago. Didn't really find strong link between the parasite on dhe behavioral changes. And that might be because actually, the immune response and humans isn't quite the same as a Nice, because mice have evolved particular strategies to recognize a parasite that we don't have.

So maybe that could be one of the explanations for that. So I don't think you have to panic too much. But if you do want to eat rare steak and cooking, the parasite will will work. So if you cook your steak completely, that will be fine. However, also, freezing steak will work so you can freeze your steak on, then have it rare on shouldn't get infection, but it will be in most meets that we buy.

Wow, you know. But, you know, getting people feeling desperate hours to go and like, find a tiger, your friends,

I don't know. I don't think anyone's looking aspect of it, but it has been linked with things like and risk of car accidents and brilliant things. But 10 years? The question that I was set was asking questions about whether males or females responded differently on I was doing. This is a piece of voluntary research because I basically left applying for my PhD really? Really. Lakes wasn't sure if I wanted to do on, and so is on the door. I was unemployed and have been out for a drink with a friend, and I was on the underground lives in Glasgow on the underground, and I see one of my old lecturers enjoying the younger ones who demonstrated for us, and it was a little bit more approachable but still utterly terrifying. And but because I'd had beer, I was like, Hi, I need to ask me what I was doing and I said,

Well, you know, I really want to get some work experience. I think I do want to do PhD but, you know, must have been advertised now as I've left it too late. And he said, Oh, well, you know, I think I've got some stuff you could do in the lab, but I can't pay you And I went okay And he said I could pay you and beer and I went brilliant. So I started working for him and great for Robert since two good friends with him that Andi I was looking at to see whether it males and females responded differently to the parasite on Dhe. To our surprise they did on that was actually also quite terrified because that was the first moment that I got something that we didn't expect, so I got the wrong result. It was not the predicted result,

and I remember sort of printing off my data and kind of settling down the corridor. And I'm not knocking on on that Craig's door, but also the other senior proft Jim was there, I'm going. It was completely the opposite. Affected on dhe, they kind of paused on. There was a sharp intake of breath Let's brainstorm stuck up on the pin boards and then we brainstorm just what we thought it men. And then I did a bunch more experiments, and I went often to my PhD in the paper was published not long after, but that was my real eureka moment because I was like, it was never the wrong

result. Yes, it was our interpretation. It's about kind of the brainstorming is the fun bit right with science is the bit where you don't get the answer you expected. I guess now you've got a lot of supervising responsibilities. Teaching responsibilities. Do you enjoy that side of your work? Sort of moving out of the lab towards the more sort off, helping other people become

scientists? Oh gosh, here is brilliant. It's a real privilege to have to do that. I love this moment, so you know we'll be we'll be learning things on. There might be a bit uncertain, and then there comes the moment. They're like they walk into the going. I think we need to do this and there's like this switch where they start to take more control, and it's kind of watching kind of nurturing them until they get that moment. I love that moment is the bit that I'm kind of like one of my PhD since she was having things done, worked as well for for a little bit. And we had this little chat. Why did you do? And I said this thing to her. And then about a month later,

she got her switch. Like, remember that thing we were talking about screwing? You're so right. She just had that kind of breakthrough moment where just everything started to work and she was like, Right, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do this. You're going to do that. To see that is a real privilege. And to be able to sort of see undergraduates get excited about the things that you're telling telling him and seeing all the amazing things that they do. I'm really lucky that quite long my undergrads have kept in touch in students that have tutored or the students that have them done. Projects on some of the things they do are just brilliant. It's not just about doing research. There's so many different careers, like science, communication year old, doing the end, get involved in clinical trials and getting a patent lost men have done some absolutely remarkable saying, So you just really privileged that you get to play tiny

part? I like to think I thought, like the admin paradox where the better you get a job unless you get to do the job is not

something you saw. Yeah, I know I'm not sort of in the lab. As much as I used to say when I first started the lecturers in the libel law and now it's much more intermittent. I could still do it. There's certain experiments that will chip in for a little, well, kind of dive in and help certain things that I'm still completely Gouda. But this helmet, if I just don't know where anything is in the lab, wears it depends which is a bit annoying because I used to be kind of it. Yes helps. Some techniques have moved on, so I kind of have to tell people certain techniques that I'm good at and say, But obviously there's probably refined that you'll have learned since since I was doing it. But it's nice to sort of be in the lab occasionally and under certainly paper. We had a couple of probably came out by a year ago on both the postdocs involved were on maternity leave. So I totally did some of those experiments, which is quite scary because I was doing really big experiment. You clearly can't come on help. We have kind of reviewers comments I've completely like back in the lab again.

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I get fecal transplant. If it was a mate like you, I do have a particularly good bye. But we could use your blender as well. I mean, that sounds No, I won't be doing that in a hurry. So she was fantastic. It has been fabulous. Listening to Sheena talk. I didn't realize that we humans are such carriers off such wonderful diversity. Well, it's funny you should say that I feel like I'm carrying a diverse array of bad things right now. Come across too much the Sheena. I am experiencing one hell of a cold today and I hope for podcast listeners that didn't come across too much in my question style today. But we hope you enjoyed this episode of the point of science podcast.

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