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Subscribe to zero I po podcast to hear this episode and catch up on season one of zero toe I P O Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from the Box Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher, and I'm Casey Newton filling in for Scott Galloway this week. Such a difference. You're not like sky galley in any way whatsoever. I'm a fresh face on this. Are you doing a fresh face? Your air? That's one of the key parts of why we brought you here. It's a whole new look which is so important on podcast. Yeah, it is absolutely casing. And so, Casey, you're in New York. You live in San Francisco, actually, at my

house, but I D'oh! Oh, and it is love. I now have toe fly like, 2500 miles

just to see if I'm a very busy lady. That's what apparently worth the trip. Yeah. Yeah. So you're in New York this week, but you have just You just got back because you broke a big story this week. I saw you the code conference, and then you're going right to Tampa.

That's right. So for the past four months, I have been talking to you current and former moderators for Facebook, who worked at a site in Tampa, Florida, and toward the end of the reporting process. Three of them agreed to breakthrough nondisclosure agreements and go on

the record, and they were currently working

there. They formerly worked there, and they were willing to come forward and kind of describe the working conditions there. So we flew there with a video crew, and we made a video and story published yesterday on

the verge. Right now it's about Facebook moderators at Tampa, But you had previously written about in Phoenix, and they broke their non disclosure agreements about working conditions at a company called Cognizant. It is not Facebook, but is a Facebook contractor. And so this is followed reporting. So talk about the old story and then how you found the new story? Yes,

so in February I wrote a story called The Trauma Floor, which was about the secret lives of Facebook moderators in America. I reported that they make up about $28,000 a year. They often leave the job with post traumatic stress, and just the working conditions on the job can be really rough. There's a lot of fears about personal safety in the office. The physical conditions could be kind of gross, and after I wrote my story. I heard from moderators all around the world, but I heard Maur from people in Tampa than anywhere else. And so I thought, I've got to go out there and same coming on They both work for the same contractor Facebook uses. A handful of these big professional service is firm. They also use Accenture and Jen Pack. But I just haven't hear from a lot of people who work for cognizant. And so I thought, I've got to get out to Florida and see what's

happening and expect Congress in is a contractor. It is hired by Facebook to to

moderate content. So if you've ever seen something on Facebook or instagram that you don't like, you can click a button to report it. And once you do, a human being has to review it to see whether it should stay up or come down on Facebook, writes the policies. But these moderators have to decide moment to moment. Does this fit the policy

or not? And how many of

the mind there are about 15,000 of them around the world working at about 20 sites,

All right, and how many clips are reported, these air just what's reported. What his flag, not what it could be bad and never flag.

That's right, and a lot of the content that gets flagged is totally benign, but I don't know how many posts get reported a day, but I know that they want moderators to be taking action on at least 250 post today. And the really high performers will look at, like,

400 dry day today. So this is this is a very in lengthy, very in. They could be pictures that could be videos

there. That's right, and in Phoenix attended to be a sort of random hodgepodge of things. But one of the people who went on the record told me that he was put in a queue where he almost exclusively saw hate speech and graphic violence for eight hours a day. And this is he's a sensitive guy. He's an animal lover. He volunteered at animal shelters, and every day he would come to work and he would watch human beings and animals dies just in the worst way imaginable. So he was ultimately diagnosed with PTSD,

and they have to watch it, then flag, and that's what takes, they have to watch the whole thing. Is that correct?

For most videos, they have to watch at least 15 seconds and sometimes 30 seconds. Sort of enough to know. And you know, Facebook will try to highlight the section of the video. That might be problematic. But, you know, one of the things that moderators have told me that they're frustrated about is that the same videos we got posted over and over and over again, even something that they've seen and they know it's horrible. They're gonna have to watch 30

seconds of it again again because face, we can't.

For some reason, maybe it was modified in some way.

And that's the problem. Yes, people can trick the system gaming system. That's what they Alex Jones is doing it all the time on all the platforms, right? Info. Wars is everywhere. Yeah, platforms. And even though he's

been banned, yes, they play this game of cat and mouse, and they're very good at creating new accounts and evading these bands. But yeah, these modified videos really give Facebook

a lot of trouble, all right? And so when say them thing in New Zealand that murders and you Zealand happened, those Facebook pulled down themselves, correct.

They did a mix of automatic and manual review of those videos they were under enormous pressure in Australia is like passing laws, basically holding them criminally liable for not pulling these videos down. So they were hugely incentivized to take down these videos as fast as they could. But they're a I systems would just get tricked. And so Facebook really rapidly built up new technology to, for example, detective. The audio is the same. Maybe even if the video's been modified, you take it down. So as much as they like to say that you know, A, I will solve all of these problems in this day and age like they're just not there. And there's a lot of people are having to do the manual

work. And what super interesting is that They then put it off on people they don't pay very well, suggest people cut you like there's an ad like What is this? A moderate Facebook? Videos are

generally says, like Social Media analyst, which appeals Thio a lot like journalism. Students honestly will like, apply for this job because I think like it could be kind of cool to work for Facebook. And so they start doing this job and they realize its meaning may be different

than just Twitter and

the others have the same. Yep, Twitter and Google and YouTube all use similar systems with those companies, though a lot of the labor is offshore. So one reason why I have made less progress and, for example, figuring out what is the situation at YouTube is because the work is being done in India and other places

right, Which is, of course, exactly what they're gonna do here, right?

Well, Sophie's book brought moderators to America because they thought American moderators would do a better job. Understanding are slaying, understanding our culture so they would kind of have the context needed to moderate our posts. But it's funny because you talk to some of these moderators and they'll tell you. Actually, not that that's not the case and that there will be people sitting on the floor. It's asking, like, Who is Malcolm X, you know, or who is Joe Biden? Who is Ted Cruz, Right, So we don't have a great question. Later in, the podcast will answer that question.

Yeah, So let's hear some of these moderators tell us about their working because one of things you wrote about was working conditions, which some of the stuff was like fingernail clips and blood. And

it's really gross

stuff. So they don't have nice offices to do this dirty work in. So they've decided to have a dirty office to create dirty work.

That's one way of putting it. Yeah, yes. I mean, the Phoenix office is currently dealing with a bedbug infestation at the Tampa site. The bathroom is routinely found like smeared with feces or menstrual blood. You don't get your own desk of this office. You sort of just go pick a new work station every day based on what's available. And so you know, people don't treat the dust well, So I talked to moderators to come to their desk, and they find fingernails where they find boogers on their desk and write. You know, this job is hard enough to begin with, and then you're just working in an office that

is filthy. Okay, all right, let's hear the first clip. In this first clip, the moderator describes a site with policies and restrictions that sounds very similar to the Phoenix site. You sat at your desk, you put on your headphones and you worked all day. No one came to comfort you if you're upset. No one came to talk to you throughout the day. If you turned around to talk to a friend you were being screamed at for not looking at your content and doing your work, They say all the time. Okay, We have these counselors here to help you, but we've got nine minutes of wellness every day. So I'm supposed to go talk to this counselor about the 500 videos I've looked at today in nine minutes. And I'm supposed to be okay.

It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense. It's OK. We're putting. So they have Nike swing. How much time they have off?

Yes. So in a given work day, they'll get 2 15 minute breaks, a 30 minute lunch, and this nine minutes of what they call wellness time, which is the time that you're supposed to use toe, you know, re center yourself after you just want to murder or whatever. Yeah, well, yeah. And you know, as Melinda says in that video. It just doesn't feel like enough. Like, you know, I've been to two of these sites now,

and they love to point out like Here's the ping Pong table. Here's the basketball table, you know, here's where we do yoga and it can even sound fun. Like what? A fun, you know, cool. Silicon Valley started to work out, but then we've got nine minutes to play

Ping Pong. That's not

very much Ping Pong, right? Or if you want to talk to the council her, it's like nine minutes, you know, isn't

very much. Did you talk to counselors? I talked

to counselors in Phoenix. Yeah, and you know the country's get mixed reviews. I have Dr Moderators to say counselors do a great job. They're very helpful. I've talked to others who said, You know, the counselor did not help me or, you know, the biggest problem that Facebook has had is that the council's air not available on every shift. So, you know, are you having a bad night? Well, maybe the council doesn't work the night shift, so that's just kind of tough for you. Facebook has said they are eventually going to bring counselor stall shifts,

but it's like it's a workplace. Of course, that's arguably the traumatic note. The jobs, the content and the moderates have to watch. Sometimes hundreds of videos a day and some of the contract is truly disturbing. And we should warn folks that this next clip has descriptions of child abuse.

I have seen videos of a baby sitter choking a toddler to death and the giving bloody noses to babies. And it stays and nobody does anything, and it just it's just there. It's always there, and you have to always look at it. You always

see death. Every single day. You see pain and suffering, and it just makes you angry because they're not doing anything and the stuff that does get deleted, it winds up back there anyway, all right, first of all, why aren't they giving you the police like that's another leg? You're sort of like, Why are they letting people do this right? So instead, excuse of Facebook for letting people do this in the first place. So I think if

these were here, they would say that we do escalate content to law enforcement when it is clearly breaking the law you know what I think Sean is expressing his frustration is that, you know, even if they escalate something to the authorities, the video is still going to get reposted or some of the crimes that will be uploaded our videos of things that happened 15 years ago, right? And so the authorities can't even really intervene anymore because it's like, you know, the point is moot. But if you're in this job, I can understand why it would just come to feel pointless, because it's like the sis. If Ian task where, you know, you're trying to scrub and scrub the Internet and keep it clean, and you know that the spots just kind of keep

come back and why does he is gonna have a platform or this stuff gets posted Well, basically

wants toe have a place where people can talk about whatever and they don't wanna have to have a lot to say about discussion, right? And as we've seen, the more that they intervene, the more conservatives complained that censorship is happening and you know they've lost their their constitutional right to free speech. So I think Facebook sees it as a political problem and if the platform were really restrictive about speech, I think they worry that it would open up ground for a competitors to come along and say, Well, we're you know, we're a free speech party. You know, we should also say that these companies are American companies. They grew up with free speech values. They wanted to create a kind of simulacrum of American

society where they're not a public square. Its owners are billionaires. I just I okay, fine with the public square and by the way,

you get arrested for selling. Well, I agree. Here's the problem. It turns out that the rule that everybody wants is take down the stuff that I hate and leave up the stuff that I like. And so it's fun to have those arguments. But like you can't build a company like that, right? Like some just write down what

the rules. Baby sitters, choking Children. Precisely what group

is for that? I don't think anybody is, and I'm and I'm sure it's against Facebook's policy,

right? So I just It's like that it that it gets there, and there's a lot of it more than I think. They always uses 1% thing, and I think it's not true,

right? Well, or another thing you know, ask yourself is, you know, should you maybe put more requirements on people before you allow them to upload a video, right? Like maybe there are certain actions that you take on Facebook where we need to know you better and trust you better.

Well, how do you do that?

Well, I mean, for example, you know, maybe your account has to be a certain number of days old, maybe have to verify the phone number and email address right there. Just like certain things that you could do to get to know a person a little bit better so you can hold them accountable if they're, you know, up uploading literal crimes under

Facebook, right? And also just creating an atmosphere. I just I just I can't even imagine thinking that's okay and making money off of it. And then also subjecting these people. You're paying very little money to it again. $28,000 within

$28,800 is the starting salary.

Is the starting salary? Yeah. How do you How do you go upwards in this? Too terrible

most of them don't Most people. I talked to her there for six months or a year, and then

they're gone. And that's another issue. Is people?

Yeah, there's a lot of turn. Was like Of course, there's a lot of churches like who would want to stay working in these working conditions? You know, we should say, Facebook aside, they're going to give all these people a $3 an hour raise, but not until next summer. So most of the people I've talked to will not be a Facebook when those

races going. And what else can they do to make it better?

Well, I mean, they could clean the bathrooms, you know? I mean, like, what they could ultimately do to make it better is bring these people in house because you and I both know if these people were sitting next to market Cheryl, they would have a clean bathroom, right? They would have really good benefits. There would be counselors there at all hours of the day. They would be able to afford really good mental

owner of the Khumbu. Just stand. Think

this is a quick, almost had dental story. But I talked to a moderator whose you know, working in this filthy conditions. And he goes to like, a Facebook offsite, like, for training. And he sees this orange juice machine. And it's incredibly beautiful in someone at Facebook. Like either tells him where he goes. It looks it up afterwards. And the oranges machine cost $16,000. You know, it was like half the annual salary of one of these moderators has been

spent on making work. You know, case you have to have your fresh orange. I mean, I do. Certainly. I mean, I can't work whenever I go to this place. I'm always like, Are you freaking kidding me every time and never Look, I think they're gonna get me this time. Well,

it is in that you see a company expressing its values, right? It is very important. For the full time in, police have their $16,000 orange juice. And if we just hired, you threw a contractor. Well, you know, we're just gonna leave it to the contractor

to decide how to treat you right? Right. So they have that This is a big issue in Silicon Valley. The contractor

it is, it is huge Dhabi's there like a system. It is a caste system in America,

right? Yet, at least in this company. And they used them quite a bit of most. Facebook and Google,

all of that. Google. More than half of Google employees or contractors,

so and they and they have separate badges and treated separately. You don't get the fancy food, and that's right. It's really If

you're a red badge, you better get out of this cafeteria.

Yeah, I sneak into Google. There's all the time

to well, well, on your often of events just, you know,

listening. Exactly. All right, we get back, we're gonna talk about Winds and fails. Is a piece that Casey did. It's very worth your time. It's very disturbing. You have to walk away from the piece itself is about Facebook moderators in Tampa who broke their non disclosure agreements to talk to Casey about working conditions of employees. A cognizant of Facebook contractor. It's super disturbing stuff. What they have to face is a job, and then the conditions they work in and the crappy pay they get on. Casey is doing a public service by by revealing this. Are they? What will happen to these people? Nothing. Uh,

you know, we don't know. There is pretty good law that people have an unequivocal right to discuss their workplace conditions and to, like, attack people or sue them for discussing the workplace conditions is a violation of their first event. Right? So my strong hope here is that absolutely nothing happens other than more attention gets paid to these work

more attention gets paid. And what's your name? Where you're going next. You gonna go abroad?

I very potentially could go, but honestly, what I want to do next is you know, there are people inside Facebook. I think that I'm beating beating up too hard on Facebook because the same system exists in other companies. Yeah, well, but what I will say is, I do want to tell this story at YouTube, and I do want to tell the story a twitter.

So my all right, That's their excuse.

I mean, there you haven't said stop writing about it. They have just said, you know, it's not just us, and they're right about that. So? So I do want to go kind of See what the story is for you to get on Twitter and Google also does like content moderation away from

YouTube. Twitter would be slightly different. There's not as much, I mean,

cognizant moderates for Twitter, too, Like they have a site in Buddha passed. I've been hearing things that are not good. So you know, there's a lot

long toe. You only have to 40 characters to do it. And there's some videos, videos,

people do upload video. And you know, Twitter is just so inept at so many things that a lot of horrible stuff gets through.

Yeah, yeah, no, I know you've seen it in your mentioned Yes, exactly. All right, we get back, we'll talk about wins and fails. With Casey Newton of the Verge Country, Crock is now making a dairy free, plant based butter that actually tastes like dairy butter. Thes new plant butter sticks. Cook and bake just like dairy butter, too, like you can definitely use it for all your stress baking needs. Plus the production of Country Crock Plant butter results in less than half the carbon footprint of dairy butter production. Treat your body and the planet a little better and try country crock plant butter.

It's so good even butter lovers love it. Find a store near you at country crock dot com slash plant dash butter and see what all the plant based type is about. You might be curious about how zoom the video conferencing app that keeps us connected to friends, family and co workers came to be. After all, while we're all home, it's been helping our work flow smoothly in Our loved ones. Feel nearby even what we're sheltered in place if you want to know more than listen to the zero toe AIPO podcast. Their upcoming Season two premiere features an interview with Zoom founder Eric You on where he shares his journey and advice for new entrepreneurs. Subscribed is your toe I Peel podcast to hear this episode and catch up on Season one of Zero i po, We've arrived our winds and fail segments of the show, and usually Scott and I talk about stories from the news this week who's screwing up and who's getting it right. I thought we might switch it up a little bit this week with you here. Let's talk about cos you covered in your newsletter, which

is called It's called The Interface. You find at the verge dot com slash interface, and I read it four days a week about that kind of the intersection of social networks. And democracy

is an amazing news, like it's really great. It's very funny, too. It was part of a funny story about someone. You have a lot of analysis. There's a lot of Analogizing try by Casey Newton. So let's talk about the company's you've talked about. Obviously, the fail for Facebook is this is one of the they've had so many, but what's a win for them this year? This week, When s So

I think a win for them this year is that Instagram is having a really good year, like I predicted at the start of this year that this was going to be the Instagram reckoning that now that the founders were gone, come in and you know that Kevin and Mike were gone. People, we're going to sort of look, take a closer look. And instead all that screaming is going to YouTube. And so instead, Instagram has thrived. They've introduced some commerce features like it is well on its way to becoming a kind of thriving social commerce site on Dhe yet people still use it. People still like it. It seems like it's growing really quickly. So I think at emissary has done a good job of just kind of being a steward of instagram and something that could have been like a black eye for them this

year. Looks like it was. What about the problems that Kevin and and Mike had? Yeah. I mean, so it was too much integration with Facebook,

right? Right. So I think, you know, Kevin and Mike really wanted to lead that independently and kind of create almost a different version or a different vision for social networking, and Mark Zuckerberg had no interest in that. So I do wish that I could take a peek into the alternate universe where Instagram is still an independent company and just see what the difference would be. I think would be great, because we have so much more competition,

you will get spun off.

No, because I don't have any faith in the U. S. Government to take meaningful any trust regulation, but do I think would be great if it were spun out? Yeah, actually do could be interesting. Yeah. I mean, look likely. Competition is good. Like all of Facebook's best ideas from the past five years to come from Snapchat. Imagine if there were five other snapshots. They're probably a lot more good ideas circulating.

Exactly, exactly. All right, so we. But we Let's go to Twitter. Win, fail. Which one do

you wanna do first? Sure. A Twitter win this year that I hear it's a sort of abstract, but here's what I'll say Twitter as a company, as long been just intro. It is like it's the company that can't, like, tie its shoes straight, right, right. But it feels more vital to me today than it did three years ago, And that's really surprising, right? Facebook instagram YouTube either feel about is relevant or slightly less relevant that they did three years ago. Twitter is vital. Twitter's were absolutely everything is happening. Loving journalists journalists are all glued to it.

But so, like so much of national politics is happening via Twitter, diplomacy is happening via Twitter. So that is the bright spot for them is it is just it is vital and that, you know, will allow them to try to, you know, figure out what type of shoe

laces. Yeah. Okay, so that's an interesting choice. What about their fails

for me, there fail, is that it was like the Jack Dorsey podcast tour. So they decided that they really wanted to be transparent with everyone is our favorite word. We just want to be transparent. And

the star transparent is a

well, when they open their mouths, all they tell you is that they're thinking about it right now, thinking about everything. Hey, what do you guys do that? That's a great idea. We'll do it. They will concede any point. They will come to every idea. Everything is a good idea. They should do everything. Try everything. Night, Right. But so the long term effect of listening to, like,

you know, 19 Jack Dorsey podcast for me has just been to undermine my faith in the company because they don't have a strong vision that they're presenting. Typically, it's just like, Yeah, you're right. That's bad. We should fix that.

You're so maybe we'll do better. Yeah. So, like the better. It's not working. Stop the podcast and stop talking to start shipping. So what would you like to see from besides

an edit button, which would have their problems problems. I would like to see them iterated product as fast as Instagram does. Look a instagram and just how quickly they roll out new features. Twitter should be exactly the same. Give us new little riches to play around with, to try, you know, keep refining the design. I know they've been thinking about doing some stuff around like Ephemeral Post like, you know, kind of Twitter stories would love to see them try that there are so many tweets that you know should disappear after 24 hours. So I just like to see them keep, like, experimenting with with the core product and see what else might be there in addition to the obvious stuff like, you know, continuing to work on a harassment and abuse.

Speaking of that, how are you liking Donald Trump's use of it? Are posies are

I mean a C. Is it absolutely incredible? A plus Twitter

boy goat about Biden? Yeah, Todd, she's

good, She's She's just mastered that medium in a way that that I find, even if you don't agree their politics like, um you know, and I probably mostly dio like I just think she's an incredible tweeter. Yeah, Donald Trump,

Knock it, but still using it? Well,

yeah, you know, uses it well. But on the other hand, like has opened concentration camps in America. Right

now, Yes. Now let us at issue. And I'm good with that word to you. Chuck. Todd isn't, um would you What would you say about? Well, you know, my favorite is George Conway. As you know, he's a very good What is very, very good. I was thinking doing column for the times about what would happen if Donald Trump didn't have Twitter. What if they just suddenly kicked him off? Just and then whatever took the took the heat. So where would he go, Casey?

Who knows? Well, I mean, he would he could D'oh Facebook. You know, here's the thing that was like, here's what happened. He would go on some of their website a platform he would do a post there, and then it would immediately be screenshot it. And someone would set up a bought on Twitter, and the knot would get posted. Right? So people who think that if you ban Donald Trump like, we'll stop hearing from him. It's not true, like the man has tens of millions of followers. And wherever he goes,

somebody is going to take that and they're going to put it on Twitter, right? So unless they just say that like, you're not allowed to tweet about the president of the United States of America, you know Trump will be with us on Twitter, right? You know,

it would remove interesting like immediacy to his. That's his

argument is, like, Better to hear what's on his mind, you know? I mean, I think it's It's actually after the press to do a better job of kind of throttling down coverage when he's clearly just, you know, talking off the top of his head with no information is frequently.

Yeah, OK, good point. That's a very good point. Thank you. Answer. That is excellent answer. Thank you. All right. You two failed around the harassment of Ah,

yeah, YouTube. Um, you know, has a policy that says you're not allowed to say hurtful things and decided to leave up a series of videos by a guy saying really anti

gay things. About one of our colleagues. Only one project. It was really quite

targeted. Yeah, Yeah, it was really bad. So they need Thio start enforcing their own policies or change those policies to explain. You know why? That suffers a lot,

right? And then any wins. I mean,

what is a YouTube win this year? So again, I think you do have a really awful year. Uh, if you know, in a lot of ways, I mean, the FTC is apparently getting ready to find them all kinds of bad stuff with you two been kids, you know, in addition, toe the stuff going on with the LGBT community. But the win for them is YouTube continues to just displaced TV for a generation of people.

Write. My kid watches you two bullet.

I want you to have all the time, right? Like my age of experience, by the way, is really great. Like, Well, I have your kid. Yeah, but you know, I go on YouTube, I see cooking videos. I see video games. I see stuff that I like. It's a great way, Thio. Just like relax and pastime.

Alex watches news. You're watching video, but isn't that so

much? It would never occur to me to

watch news on you do You watch the news all the time in documentaries and everything.

Yeah, like there's

there's a lot of things about about Syria. He goes to you to rule. It's riesgos. Pretty good stuff. I was watching some stuffy one. Yeah, I track him,

not you. Well, yes, it would be weird if I was tracking him,

but I don't think I track you.

Oh, thank you for not doing that. Yeah, I mean, I could

make my facial surveillances, and I asked, So that's exciting. So? So there's good stuff on there. There is so much good trying to make the point it code. Yeah, and it's like that's

not a winning argument for her. But, you know, you can't deny that there that YouTube continues to grow, as you know, the primary place where people are consuming video. So, uh,

you know, they're being competitors. What if they spun off its its I,

uh I would be interested to see what would happen if it did spin office a public company. Although that is one where I don't immediately see how it would help. I think the the cost of starting a new video platform are so enormous, right? Don't forget that YouTube almost, you know, got torpedoed by Viacom lawsuits that went on for a decade. It seems like any new companies starting up is gonna have to figure out how do you identify copyrighted stuff? You know, how do you comply with the millions of red laws have been passed around the world, you know, to to deal with this kind of stuff. So YouTube is like, I think, the most powerful and coming in the world at the same time, like video exists. If you hate YouTube,

for some reason, you just posted herself on video. So there are alternatives that are legal and forthright and like not, you know, sketchy Russian

sites. Okay, so fair point. All right. All right. So last thing predictions, my made a Casey Newton. Our prediction. Here's my Scots. Pretty good at predictions.

I don't want to put a well, and so I was gonna predict that Amazon will by whole Foods. No. Okay. Prediction. All right. Um, well, new prediction is I think tic tac, which is into this fast growing. It's a very fast growing, video based social network, kind of like vine, but with some relief fund features that has just kind of taking America by storm. It's owned by a Chinese company called Fight Dance, and I think tic tac in the next year is going to get caught up in the U. S.

China trade dispute like like the U. S. Government has already started to take action against social networks that are popular America but by the Chinese government. Side is grinder. I think Tic tac is going to face the same thing, like as grinder grinder was owned by a Chinese company and now the U. S government is making them unwind it because it's actually a national security issue. Because you can, you know, if you know, sort of who's gay in the U. S. Government. Maybe you could blackmail them, right? So anyway, there's a lot lot going on there. But I just think that ultimately it will prove untenable, at least in this moment in time for there to be a super popular. China owned a social

network in America, and the Chinese companies have not made incursions here

in the same. No, but I mean and taken has been the most successful. But, you know, ultimately, I just think they're gonna teach. Yeah, they're collecting a lot of data. You already see what the U. S government is, you know, sort of taking a really stern look. Att? China made drones. You know, there was, like, the grinder thing that I mentioned so

that the biggest maker, Jones is a Chinese company. That's

right, DJ I and so they're so Tic tac has had a charmed life, but, you know, given that everything I just explained about China and the fact that every social app is a fat Anyway, I just think like a year from now, I would be surprised if take talk were as vital

or popular. All right? Okay. That's an excellent That's one. Was was the drone that Iran shot down a Chinese Joan that we had up there. Who knows? All right, Casey, thank you so much. I urge you to read this story. It's on the verge. It is called bodies in seats. Yes. Which

is if I'm going to say real quick The reason that it is called that is because ah woman who worked there said to me we were nothing at all to them. We were just bodies

and seats. That is correct, and it's a terrible job. They're doing an important, vital job, but also a terrible job. They're good job in a terrible they really are. And thank you for doing it and we'll see more from Casey Newton on the verge. Casey, thank you for coming in and replacing Scott.

I was happy to pivot pivot.

Anyway, Camila Salazar produced this show. This shot Kirwa is pivots executive producer Thanks also to Eric Johnson. Thanks for listening. To pivot from box Media will be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. We love hearing from our fans on Twitter and in real life, if you're one of those passionate fans, please tell a friend to subscribe. Your recommendations really help us grow the show. If there was a spreadable Kuk Herbal Bay Kable plant face butter, that was better for your body and the planet. What would you make with it? Butter cookies. Butter pie? That's a thing, by the way, whatever it is,

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