huh? Hey, everyone, It's Abby Desi, your host of product on radio, where I'm joined by the founders, investors and makers that are shaping the future of Tech. In this episode, I speak with Matthew Paul, an entrepreneur and former product designer at Envision. Matthew has worked on software and design systems at IBM. He's prototype APS at Apple, and he's really passionate about typography. In this episode, he's gonna dive into details of an open source project he's working on to pioneer best practices in this space APP. Developers spend way too much time testing and troubleshooting their mobile labs for them to be perfect. Those days are now over introducing head spin for mobile with head spins Knew all in one platform.

You could now automate testing, monitor performance and analyze user experience of your APS on Riel, Sim and Naval Devices and actual WiFi and carrier networks. And you were in the world no sdk required. Learn more about the head's been global device cloud at head spin dot io. So Matthew thinks what you're being on product on radio J really appreciate. It's always fun to have someone from the community on this show, but even better to have a product designer because we haven't really had a ton on the season so far. So thanks for making time.

Yes. Thank you for having me.

Incredible. I thought it might be fun to just start off by talking about some of the projects you're working on now that you're really excited about. And then sort of just getting the community to hear a bit more about how your career and product design has evolved over the last few years. You've worked at some incredible companies from IBM Apple. So it be fun to kind of start with what? What you're most excited about right now and then kind of just like work backwards and think of like how you evolved as a designer as you progressed from team to team.

So what I'm working on now that I'm actually very excited about because it's kind of been fiddling around in my brain for the past two years is this Ah, it's going to be just an open source. Projects a mixture of cement, P M package yarn package and designed tool plug ins for your favorite design tools. You know, in Vision studio. Big Nah X t sketch. Um, and it is all around a better way to think about screen based media typography. And I say, screen based media, because we're evolving into a world where we can't just talk about typography for the Web. And we can't just talk about typography for native applications. Were talking about typography for a R for v. R for HUD's that sit, um, you know,

on the windshield of your cars. So anything that's a screen, you know, screen I call Syrian based media and the project, which we can dive into more later for sure, if you'd like, is generally just kicked off because I was dissatisfied with how I was seeing the industry of designers used typography, even though they were using and thinking about mathematical type. Typography is scales, Um, and by scale, I mean, you know, like you have you're based font size and on your heading for heading three heading to heading one, and it kind of grows. It's for that scale.

And there were people, um, the doing projects around modular scales. Um, and there were people writing about math, Donna mathematical web typography. But for some reason, I couldn't really figure out why It kind of really like work to me. Why? I didn't like it. And one day it just clicked because, like all of this thinking was coming from, ah, place of where design started, where our screens, if you will,

our our medium was fixed. It was a piece of paper, you know, And those dimensions from this piece of paper, you know, came from a certain place. And then people derive type sales that looked good on those certain sizes of paper. And people were trying to retrofit that now to the screen, and it didn't really work. So I've been looking into a project, um, really easy to use, kind of micro tool. We'll call it a utility tool for better screen based media topography.

This is really interesting. I kind of think of like the beginning of typography and what it might have looked like. Let's say it was calligraphy on parchment or something like that. And then, exactly as you say, we went from looking at words on your physical pieces of paper to looking at words on screens. And even in the time that you know, we've been working in the tech industry over the last few years, we've seen that evolve. You know, you mentioned a R V r. We've got cars that have their own tech platforms now, and what I guess is quite interesting is, you know, as an outsider, So I'm not a designer myself. But has there being any sort of consensus on how how to do this?

Or is this something that you've sort of identified as an opportunity to, like, start a dialogue around? You know what this should look like? Like how best practices for typography should exist in, um, you know, multi screen, where all them lots of advances and how we process information on screens.

That's a great question. I don't think that there has been much of a conversation around it like you talked about in Cat Nunes episode, and like her whole business, is focused around this word. This thing that's easy to latch onto and easy toe toss up to an executive and say this is important accessibility. I think that, you know, cat talks a lot about how you know, as we move forward in the future of technology and software products and heart of our products, there's going to be actually like, um, standards that governments, companies, private companies and people need to make otherwise, you know, they might be find if they don't meet this color conscious, they don't meet this keyboard accessible interface.

Um, or if they're interface, isn't successful for screen reader users. And I don't really think there is been much of a talk around or a consensus around typography. And I would certainly be interested in that as soon as you kind of get to this world of saying here's here Here is like, one way to do something. Designers get all, you know, they out in the field that the pitchforks because they say, Hey, this is gonna ruin our creativity.

This is gonna got

it. This is gonna, um, you know, limit our ability to innovate yada yada, But, um, yeah, like I think it would be interesting to say, Hey, here is, you know, a mathematical engineered equation of function that offers, you know, really nice type sizes that are derived from the history of screens, and they're really meant for screens. And sure,

every font is gonna need a different like little tweak. And that's why there's some parameters that you can tweet with this little tool. I'm depending on. You know what you have or what based font size you wanna have or how fast you want that skill to grow. You want to really gradual vigilante, really steep, etcetera. And so there's still some flexibility there. But it would be really interesting to see if they're in the future. There would be some sort of like people could come together and be like create some standards around this so that you don't go to you Don't go toe one website and you see this like massively terrible typography and you go to you know, another website that has, you know, Ah, large, massive company like Google was millions millions of dollars to invest in their own typeface, let alone let alone their own thinking around typography. So to really kind of give equal tooling to everyone. Not just that these big companies that can invest in it

I wanted to ask you, as as we were talking about, you know what, what standardization should exist, if any, so that we can maximize our experience as we interact with different interfaces and, you know, have different experiences with technology across different screens. It got me thinking of the role that a product designer plays on dhe. The growing well I see as a consumer anyway, like tensions between, like what you want to design so that the user can get the most benefit from that experience on DDE. What you want to design so that the brand funding this project can also maximize whatever their success metrics for that product might be. And I was thinking about what you're saying in the context of, Let's say, social Media Your Instagrams recently removed likes from post in certain countries because they realize that there are, like negative connotations for that feature where people are getting addicted to their phones or their use of instagram is actually impacting the mental health and really negative ways and maybe even their physical health.

Now that you have worked across so many different companies as a product designer and you're now creating your own independent projects as a product designer, thinking about things like, how can the most people benefit from what we make? Do you feel that tension? Do you acknowledge that tension is that attention that you have experienced in past roles like where there might be some divergence between what you as a designer feel, is the optimal experience for the end user. But what let's say a brand feels is optimal design to maximize on the success metrics they need.

Ah, yes, of course. And I won't get into any specific projects or companies for respectful reasons. But it does come up and I have seen it. And in fact, it kind of scares me for the past 10 years. Designers, um you know, all the way from the first designers they started to hire at Facebook, and Julie moved up now, and VP of design at Facebook. After 12 years or so, you know, people have been talking about designers wanting a seat at the table and hey, guess what? Now we got one,

and I mean looking at decision making power. Looking at salaries across the industry, designers are right up there with software engineers, product managers and these people that are, like, you said, really concerned with ah, you know, hitting certain metrics, hitting certain whether it's brand or whether it's a product sales or whether it's some just number that they need to move the needle on right to show that, hey, we didn't have a bad quarter. So you know, if they're looking to lay off anyone in our start up, it's not going to come from our organization. And as a designer,

you have to be really cognizant about that, and you have to always, always bring the customer back to the conversation, and you have to invite your product managers. And you have to invite their bosses, the product directors and their bosses, the V P's and same with engineering the engineers and their managers. Invite them into your conversations with customers into your interviews as urine as you're testing your prototypes, let them hear firsthand what the customer has to say, or if they can't make it record a video sent it to them. And why I said it scares me is because this gets into the question of ethics and this this ah, topic of design ethics. And I think there's only a few people that are really that. At least I know a few people that I know that are really writing about it and talking about it and making it a point to actually start the bring this conversation to the point where the people that are the decision makers will really listen.

Mm. Yeah, No, I think I think you're so right. I think, um, having these conversations, just creating dialogue around and making sure teams are having a conversation about it is already progress. But it's important that we commit to that and and have those conversations I think, you know, going back again to all the unique experiences you've had. You've worked, um, at huge tech corpse like Apple IBM on Did you know, most recently even envision. And I was wondering when you think of all the products you've been involved with launching whether that was business outside apple or, you know,

tools for designers. In your most recent roles, you've had an opportunity to work probably with, like, lots of different types of sprint styles, lots of different types of teams, you know, matching a designer with the developer, or matching two designers with one fell over or whatever that case might be on. Dhe. I know when we have a mai is on in which your views for our makers community people are always really curious about learning, like what to avoid doing like people are always really interested to know. What are these common ideas and notions we have about ways of working? Or is it building that we really still hold firm Thio when in reality they're not actually that effective? Actually, here is a way more effective way of doing something.

And with that in mind, I thought it might be quite fun. Toe ask you to reflect on some of maybe the more challenging projects that you've had and share with all of us left staying. All of the makers, in particular some of those like Ms Steaks that folks make when when they're thinking about product design or, you know, even when they are working with designers, just sort of like reflecting on the experiences you've had. What would be some of those like lessons or stories that you'd like to share?

I have so many first piece of advice would be Don't run a design sprint unless you actually know what it is and know why you need to do it. And I have a really good plan on how to make it successful. And if you do, don't invite 26 people to it because that doesn't make sense. Not that that's ever happened to me. I just heard the horror, the horror stories.

So this is really great question because I have a friend who's recently been in this situation. So what would you say is a sensible way to run a design sprint If someone is sort of like, really pushing? Let's say someone in a company really wants to get designs for something, whether that's like a new landing page, and you mobile out what would be a sensible way to get. You know, designers working quickly toward Cem Cem first versions of mock ups or something like that.

Well, it really depends if it's it depends what the ask is what the problem is or what the opportunity is, or if you don't know any of those things, then that's the best time for design. Sprint. If you already have an idea of something you don't need a design sprint, I think designs, prints and and in different, different design thinking activities. You call them that you can pull from here, tooled out like experience base, road mapping or empathy mapping, Um, as is to be journey mapping, which are all kind of you can tie in and weave in and create your own designs for it, if you will. But I think that a design sprint in the purpose of the is too find out.

What is the best thing that we can make for our customers and for our business right now. And during a design sprint you're gonna forecast out and you're going to think about Okay, you know, this is where we want to get to. But let's say this is a random example, and it might not be random. It might have been legitimate, but let's say uber said that in, you know, they want to be able to accept credit cards. Yeah, they want to accept credit cards through their app so people can take rides, and they want to be able to do that for any credit card anywhere around the world. Now, that's a very complicated system that involves governments that involves international ality that involves banks that involves credit history, credit companies.

And so if they want that to happen, what's the first step and what could they build today? Maybe Maybe the first step is hey, you can use, you know Visa, American Express and MasterCard and that alone people will be like, Oh, my God, this is amazing. And people will start using it. And somebody might even switch their credit card just to use it. You know, you know, But that's what a design spring is really good for is to find out what's the best thing we could build today, too. Rapidly it right on some,

like, like, really, um, kind of kind of hone in on what? What the idea is in what, like rally every run around? No, to know what you want to build and then just get a couple of different options of maybe how we might make this a reality. Put that in front of some customers and then, by the end of it, hopeful you have someone that's really good at synthesis and consent the size, all that information and say, Okay, here's what we need to go next. You're never gonna end. It designs front with with, like, the answer or the finished thing.

I think that's a really helpful framework. That's that's great. I like that. I'd make sense seeing it from your side as well. Um, totally, totally makes sense about. You know why it shouldn't be rushed and why it should have the right intentions. That's great. Awesome. Okay, what about the next next piece of advice? The next tip? Yeah,

the next step. This just makes me laugh. Looking bad experiences in thinking about how, like, how much I cared about them at the time. And then then how much? I like how little I care about them now. So just an extra tip is just don't get wrapped up and And whatever the problem is, wick and my problem I mean, like with your team are here. You know, operational stuff obviously get wrapped up in the problems of what you're trying to build or ship, because that's the fun s of one suspect. So, yeah, the situation was we were just finishing up project. One of them that's in my portfolio not live for anyone to see whatever they don't put any work live.

I don't ever really a reason why I might soon, but this project I did internally known as whitewater. Um, but it was like IBM tool belt. So it was a ah Web application for financial analysts and team leaders to manage the access control and finances for third party software. So at IBM, we were really trying to shift the culture into a more design, thinking, agile way of working and instead of using these antiquated, really slow, really unknown. So, you know, high cost of on boarding tools that IBM built to themselves and owns themselves. They said, Hey,

let's you slack. Let's use get, have enterprise. Let's use, um well, eventually, slack enterprise grid. We were like the second customer on that before they even had had second impress bread. So we even pitched in concepts to them about how I look they could grow into that model. But after that project, a few of us think a group of six of us. Um and we're all fairly young. Um, but we spun off and we were tasked with Kind of coming up with this new project for IBM for internal for internal use. And I won't get into the specifics of it, but we had kind of a design lead to design.

I sees. Ah, too, engineer. I see is an engineering lead and

I I see you mean individual contributor,

right? Yes, I do. I guess we're all pretty much individual contributors is the leads were still I, I see is like they weren't managing us. We were all managed, you know, by people that weren't directly involved in our work, which also, I think is good thing I've learned which we can get into. But the thing is, um, we had the engineering lead really strongly opinion, opinionated person. He wanted to and was sort of obsessed with this idea of there be this 1 to 1 ratio. Ah, one designer toe every engineer and that you would work in pairs on your user stories,

and designers wouldn't work ahead. And we would. All six of us are eight of us or whatever. Do you know Sprint planning and sizing together. And he was very like, wanted to be stretched around how we were wrote user stories using this sort of syntax of a way to write user stories called Gherkin. Not sure if you've ever heard of it, huh? Maybe Maybe someone listening. Well, um, you can look it up. I also believe gherkin means pickle

or it does here in the UK love him in a sandwich. Yeah.

Ah, yeah. I don't love my knees. Your story? Yeah. And so it just didn't work it like it really didn't work, like because naturally, you know, some of the designers on the team, some of the engineers and the team are really skilled in some areas, like research. Um, where others air really skilled in, you know, back in language like go or, you know, another designer,

maybe really skilled in visual, on interaction design. And when you know, you have one in one pair that was supposed to own an entire user story, which you can even break down until, like, of smaller tickets so that you can ship even more incrementally. It becomes really hard to deliver in that way. And it almost became impossible. And I would look back and never want to do that. I think the healthiest environment on the flip side that I've ever worked in was actually at envision. It was really cool to see them sort of grow and evolve into this model. And they were just starting to try it out right as I joined, um, which I didn't know. I thought they were already kind of like running smoothly like this for a while.

because it came in and it felt so smooth. But basically they had individual squads completely autonomous, working on their sort of, you know, section of the overall offering, as envisioned as many different products in many different offerings in the Altai together. So obviously we have to work across squads and whatever. But our squad alone we had a trio we called it, which was, um, a design lead, a engineering manager and a product manager. And I say design lead because it's just the only designer on the whole team which I thought was really I thought was really cool to it gave a lot of Aton amenity and a lot of responsibility to that designer. And then, obviously, um,

like, you know, through are zone of squads letter. Our group are larger group of squads. We would have, like weekly critiques, sometimes bi weekly. But yeah, that back that squad. So that was like the trio and then beyond that, there was anywhere from I don't know for two maximum like seven or eight software engineers, and that worked out as a really good model when you might hear that across the industry as a as a ratio that people shoot for us that, like one designer to eight. Software engineer ratio.

Wow. 1 to 8. That's healthy. Yeah.

Yeah, I think so. I think it works pretty well. Actually,

that's also I really appreciate you kind of like reflecting directly on to when you were in the trenches and thinking of this is working great for Sis. Boom. This is not working so great because I always feel that once enough time has passed and you know you can reflect on this. Experience is it puts you in the best position to think of it more objectively and go like, OK, if I could do that all over again, what would I do differently and what would change, you know, to reach the outcome quicker or more productively, more effectively. So I really appreciate you kind of going into the recesses of memory and bringing those backup. That's also so you've spoken a bit about, you know, intention and, like, really thinking clearly about you know why you want to do a design spent, for example,

Like what? You know what the outcome is and being realistic about what are realistic outcomes given, like the time or the information available. You've also talked a bit about, you know, the structure of teams when it comes to building. So what's the best way for teams to you? Lied share information was the right ratio of different functions. That's all that incredible. I wondered, Were there any other reflections that you had either about how to make the most of a design team or working with a designer or reflections on how you know when makers are shipping your features? A new products like things to keep in mind? When doing that?

Yeah, one thing comes to mind, and it might not be what you're expecting. Eso I'll keep it short and and feel free to ask the same question, maybe in a different way. But the ah actually learned this white recently, and it sounds so obvious in retrospect, such his life. But seriously, don't be afraid to ask for help at at a decent company at a decent place. No one's gonna get dinged for asking for help. You're gonna get doing there not right away, but it's gonna it's gonna take a while, but you're gonna get dinged if you don't. And if you're overwhelmed and you try to take on too much. Um, because what happens is you just end up either burning out or not doing a job,

a great job at any of the things. And it's hard sometimes whether it's because you're really proud of something you're working on or whether it's you're scared that you're gonna, you know, look bad for asking for help. Or it's your human ego saying, I know I can do this but yeah, I mean, like, at one point there was They were a couple of things on my plate and I really cared for both of them, and I wanted to see both of them have been through. But I had to tell my manager, Look, if if you really want this thing to be done well, like, please give it to someone else, I wanna work on it like don't get me wrong like I really I really want to do it. But like if you want this done well, like please bring someone else in and and have them do it. And that was a hard lesson to learn because I spent many, many years not doing that.

Yeah, I think it's incredible for us to reflect on how difficult it is to ask for help. Um, and I'm very grateful that you bring it up because, you know, I'm thinking of even being a part of the product and team. We did a workshop, Um, the last time we had an off site and we were just talking about imposter syndrome and how that impacts our work. And you know what it looks like when it manifests itself in either the way we communicate with each other about projects or the way we communicate about what we're working on. Every single person on the team brought up the fact that you know there are times when they want to ask for help or more information or clarification, but they're concerned about how that could be interpreted. And that's even in, you know, a team which is super open and super positive and also like, quite small and quite close. So there's definitely something just very human about that,

and very human about just, you know, feeling awkward or whatever and being worried. So I think you're absolutely right. You It's important task for Hap. It's important to just like flag stuff that could be an issue as soon as it happens and not waiting for it to actually be a problem. I think that's what you're alluding to as well.

It's unfortunate that I think many companies really are trying, and sometimes they don't know how to try to make their workplaces not only divers, but but safe and divers in other ways. And what I mean by that is that I think that people expect makers whether your designer and engineer product people definitely executives. They expect them to be a certain person. They expect them to fit a certain mold. They expect them to be really good at executive functioning, you know, being able to you're like, have a set of cognitive processes that are able able you to, you know, work in a very linear fashion plan. Things out, go step by step, the ability to get tests done, uh, the ability to multi task all that stuff.

And but the fact is that we're just all not like that, where our brains are not built that way, and I believe there's a term for that called neuro diversity. I think that, like looking back on my career, a lot of, ah, things that run into in the situations I got into, And the times that people may have told me that I was hard to work with was because I was not neurotic Pickle. I was neuro atypical compared to what they're narrow. Norm is. And, uh, I think that's the next wave of like what we need to think about in terms of inclusion in the workspaces people's mental health and peoples. You know, not only just do they have,

like a mental, um, health condition, but, you know, let's dig deeper. Let's learn even more about these things about like neuro diversity.

Absolutely. You put this in a really, really good way. Like I think your diversity is understand, like many things in our space where it's kind of go on vacation a bit and gotta go away from what they are meant to mean. But I feel like I can relate a lot to what you said about being in an environment where you express things in a certain way or, you know, question things in a certain way on when that is not the way of communicating or the way of your thinking out loud that let's say the person leading that project is used. Thio. It's almost as if your contributions are are not as valuable as someone who could say the same thing in a different way or communicate in a different way. And I think it's challenging and our industry in particular, because we optimize for innovation so much. And we want to challenge things all the time and we want to think differently. But then, at the same time, we don't always create a space or an environment or a way of working that allows everyone two equally participate in doing that. Does that make sense?

Yeah, totally. And what they tell you is that, Oh, you need to get better at you know your storytelling or you need to get better at your price presentation skills or you're presenting. And it's like it's like, Do I or do do you need to just get better at understanding how I present

Yeah and listening. Get better at listening. All of us can always get better at listening, right? Matthew? I mean, I could talk to you all day, but I know we don't have that time. Sadly so, they're just like two things I wanted. Thio ask you before we wrap up. One of them is products that you're obsessed with. I'm sure like we're gonna get a ton of really cool tools and ups and stuff that you use. But the other thing is more personal around. How you invest in yourself as a techie, as a product designer, as a maker,

you know, you obviously care a lot about your industry and your thinking a lot about the future of it and what you can contribute to make it better. So I just wonder, like, Are there newsletters? You read books. You're obsessed with podcasts. What's like the media you consume for your own personal development and then tell us about your favorite products in general,

personal development. As a product designer, I think in the earlier years I was I mean, if we're talking way back like, ah university days and graduating and lending, you know, my first job, I was obsessed with all the blondes downloading all of the texture packs. All of that has all that stuff I was obsessed with looking at dribble. I was obsessed with, you know, illustrating. And I thought I was gonna be, you know, this this sort of graphic designer and his brand designer. And obviously that's not the case now mostly work between, like,

product research in code. And as I progress, I think slowly and salute. I just carried less and less about that stuff. I think they still provide a great service to the industry. You know, for what they do, it's just, you know, I'm no longer than their market. And so, you know, I mean, what I try to do to progress in my that skills and in my career these days is I just try to talk to people. I tried to meet new people, and I will say this without joking.

Like, I literally have gotten every single job, um, that I've ever had three Twitter just by someone be reaching out to me, Me reaching out to them, uh, introductions happening that way. And I think fortunately through my work, you know, early on, this was maybe started, like, seven years ago at IBM and Apple. There is, um, quite a bit of travel all around the United States,

at least, and for IBM a little little bit internationally and an IBM. They would fly in a ton of people internationally to Austin because it was like the first design studio they built. And now that now they have, like, 43 or some crazy around the world. Yeah, yeah. Um, I could talk for ages about my time there, but what I was getting it is that I think I just learned the most from meeting new people and hearing what they're working on and that taking a little spark of what they're working on and seeing if I can include that into my work. Or maybe that just gives me a little more fire to go finish something that I'm working on. Um, And as I travel to these different cities, um, which used to be through work and now is more personal,

Um, travel because I work remotely. For the past two years, I didn't really need the travel. I would just hit up people on Twitter and say like, Hey, you want to get a copy or a tear stack? Um, and I have met people that are now like lifelong friends that way.

Incredible. Yeah. I dreadfully think we underestimate the power of learning from the people around us, I often ask elfin get asked. Oh, about Jesse, will you be my mentor? Will you help me find a mentor by people who are just a few years younger than me getting along in the tech industry? And I always encourage them to connect with other people in their field like, Oh, great. You want to get into community like speak to other community managers are like, Oh, great. You're, like, interested in marketing, like speak to other marketers, like learn from each other. And I guess I'm just echoing what you're saying as a reminder to the listeners to There's so much we can learn from the people around us.

Yeah, I totally agree, I guess, really quickly. You asked about

something? Yes, yeah, exactly. Like are there new books that you recommend?

Yes, there is one design related book that I recommend because it's something I recommend to literally everyone. And, um, I haven't come across a single person that's ever even heard of it. Well, the thing is, it was, um it was really hard to get a hold up for a while. It was out of production and not originally even produced in the United States. And so when when this woman who came over from Ireland from Dublin to work at IBM for a few days, she, like, brought this book with her and I was like, I knew about it and I was like, Can I please like, Are all that for,

like, a few days? You're here and I went home and I read the whole thing. When night. Granted, it's only, you know, 60 pages. So not much of an accomplishment, uh, reading wise. But it's called detail in typography, a concise yet rich discussion of all the small things that enhance the legibility of tests. And it's written by this person named just Actually, I hope I said that, right?

But yes, detail in typography. It is now back in print edition be 42 apparently. And you can, um I think I read off Amazon, or I would rather you just go directly to whatever whoever produces it and buy it from them.

Amazing. That's so cool. Thank you for that. How you're going deep down the typography, dark tunnel, sometimes reading up on all that. And then so when it comes to the APS and products that you you're obsessed with, maybe not necessarily work related. These are just things up always on your home screen or a new physical object that you just got recently and you're kind of obsessed with. Obviously, we're product fans here at Product Hunt, so it's gonna just a fun time to hear what you love.

Yeah, very much living in New York City. I don't leave anywhere without my air pots, as many like no taking or reminder APS out there. Um, I still use simple notes, which is pin around for ages and, like, hasn't changed much like they still don't even let you, like, change the size of time, sister. Bold and simple. Now, um, it just thinks really well, I mean,

obviously, like one password is great headspace. Sleep out. Shut up to, uh, my friend Christine Shaw if she ever listens. She worked on the sleep app for that. Um, it's amazing. It's a little tab at the bottom of head space, and I guess the last check product is I used this thing called Magnet. I think it was like a dollar a dollar 99 from the home from the APP store. But, um, there's others like it. I really love it because it just has all the shark use.

And it allows you to just move windows around on your screen so you can, like, you know, expand something. Full screen moving to the left. Move to the right. Up down on top. Left top. Right, Left. Third left. 2/3. Right. Third, all that stuff and you can even if you have two monitors you can just like he commends, Like send them between monitors and stuff like that.

Awesome. Amazing. And so what about folks who are listening and going? Oh, my gosh, I want to find out more about this typography tool that he's building or I just want to, like, reach out to him. He sounds like a cool guy. And he's obviously up for talking to people that reach out to him on Twitter. So I'm going to do that. How should folks find you?

Yeah, definitely. Find me at Twitter. My handle is at math. You see, Paul So my name with my middle initial in between and yeah, please reach out to me there. Diem's air open, but be respectful. The type tool I'm working on, um, and that I'm really excited about. Yeah, um, I'll, uh, look for it on product time.

I don't even have a name for it yet. Um, but it's, you know, I'm I should be wrapping up the majority of the tooling around this month, and then I'll start working on, like, the designs will plug ins in march. Um, so it'll kind of roll out in phases. Yeah, look forward. I'm product hunt, and, um, I'm also gonna be making some,

uh, getting back to my foot physical making roots and making some enamel pins, stickers and screen prints based around Dragonball, Dragonball, Z and Dragon Ball. Super because I'm a super nerd of Dragon ball.

Amazing. I love that. Thank you so much, Matthew. Thanks for being on product on radio.

Thank you for having me.

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