Anthony Armand. Ours is a founder in the partner of Fun size, a creative design agency, which he started with his wife, Natalie. They spend years been laser focused on business, working day in and day out to make sure their business can now account Facebook, Oracle, Adobe, E, E. A. A. T and T and many others among their successful customers. And such an ambitious and hardworking couple have a baby and actually enjoy it. We sit down with Antony to find out this is a special episode, because I had a pleasure to record Anthony twice once, just before they had their baby. And once shortly after, you can hear for yourself what goes on in the mind of a successful business owner and how his world changes with an arrival of a

child. Thanks for having me on the show career. Well, it's always good to catch up with you, and I've started to listen to your podcast toe, get started thinking about all things, baby. So it's a pleasure to be here, So you're freaking out. I'm screaming on the inside, but I think I'm portraying Common collected on the outside. But honestly, I'm quite scared

What's so scary about it? You're gonna be great.

I don't I don't really know why I'm scared. You know, I think that maybe the hardest thing that I do is run this business and Ah, that doesn't scare me at all. I think I just have experience doing that. You know, I've been I've been doing this design business stuff for 20 years. It's the only thing in my life that feels natural. Having a baby is just something that I never really didn't want to have a baby. Natalie and I had talked about it, but we were both kind of on the fence about whether or not we wanted to have a family or not. It happened and it's ah, very happy surprise. Like, I'm very excited about it now, but I just I guess my fear is that I'm worried that I won't be able to flip the switch and and be family oriented because I think I've developed really bad habits of the last 20 years of just being super focused on work. Plus,

I didn't go. I mean, I grew up in a in a family that, you know, we didn't have a lot of money, and we didn't have a lot of means. We live very comfortably, but, you know, I hustled through my teens through my twenties and get all the way through my thirties just to make a name and a living for myself and on Lee. Maybe five years ago, when I was 35 that I really feel like I had stability in my life. And so, you know, between the age of 35 40 which I am now are really the only years where I felt like I've had freedom to live my life the way I want to in the ability to think about myself. So in a way, I've kind of intentionally become a selfish person. And I don't really know if I'm ready to give that up. Well, we'll

find out. I mean, it's kind of late at this point, right on. But of course, there's always boarding schools. Yeah, Yeah. I mean, but, you know, you've you've been running an agency for a while. You've done that pretty good. So now we're just gonna have to switch gears and applied the same thinking to your kid and hopefully things gonna work out What do you think? You

know, ever Everyone that has a baby talks about how great it is having babies, right? Like how with that, How amazing that experiences and how you'll never be able to love something as much as you. You love this, this human being in your life and you don't. I mean, I suppose you just really don't understand that at all until you experience it. So I just kind of ignore everything that everyone tells me about it. And I just am preparing for an experience, you know, just a ride. I'm looking forward to the ride, and I am looking forward to being a dad. I think I'll be a good dad. I'm not deaf,

you know, I'm definitely not getting any younger either, So I'm I'm kind of excited. We're having a baby now that I'm 40. And that

way I'm not like an old old

old man, Dad.

Well, I'm gonna send you a cane as a present.

Yeah, well, you know, my dad was 30 when he Well, he was 29 or 30 when he had me. I'm 40 when I'm having my first, so I'm trying to think like you know? You know, when my son is I'm just gonna be an old old dad, you know? But I'm okay with that. I'm young and young in the mind.

Did you hear what you just said? That you're not a dead yet? But you've already said you're having your first at 40. That being stairs an opportunity for more. After this one,

there may be an opportunity, but I'm pretty sure Natalie and I are going to make sure that that opportunity doesn't exist were very clear on one and done. But we are very excited. It's just Ah, you know, getting getting ready to have Ah, baby, when you run a business with your life partner is extremely challenging because neither, like, we both work for the same company which we own, found and run. And both of us are critical to be 100% in the business for the business to be successful. For us to make a livelihood so that we can provide for our family wrapping our heads around, that has probably been the biggest

challenge. Let's talk about this in a minute because you mentioned the other day that your mom in law is actually gonna come help you guys out of full time, et cetera. But you know, Yeah, I'm really happy to have you here because I think a lot of people, probably in your shoes and think it's like a whole well, should we have a kid? Because we held this business and this in the other, and I want to know what's going on. So you you had, like, now and for the last nine months. So can you take me a little bit through your kind of feelings and experiences leading up to this point?

Yeah, I think. Well, when we moved to Austin seven years ago, one of the reasons why we moved here was to start a family when we started a business instead are our story changed and it became more about, like, building a business and have a family at work. And that's when we started changing our opinions about having our own family. But then a few years passed and we decided, Well, you know, if it if it if it happens, it happens. We have a family. It happens. But we're not gonna actually try like we're just gonna live life and see what happens. And Natalie became pregnant and I was super excited,

but it didn't feel real. In fact, it didn't even really feel real to me until I could see the sonograms or what? What? What? I could see the baby's face for the first time. That's the only moment to me where it feels like it was actually happening. So months and months up up. Before that, I did. I didn't even feel riel. Plus, I didn't want it. I don't want to count my blessings too early because, you know, we had lost a baby two years before.

So yeah, and then when it became riel, then I started sort of realizing, like you said, that I need to start applying the way that I think it worked to the way that I think about my family. You know, I'm constantly obsessed with client experience in employee experience and process design and the sort of stuff. So I I have been sort of applying trying to apply that to home, like, how can I be more present when I'm with Natalie? Like, how can I make sure that every second that I'm with her? I am really there with her and then I'm not behind technology. And then I'm, like, full mentally there.

I want to start building that ability so that I can actually be present with child. I mean, there's a difference in being with your family and like being around your family. And I think that if you're on the phone or if you're on TV or on a computer and you're not really with your family just around your family, So I'm tryingto I'm trying to build some habits. So now, like now that we're about well, the baby is due on July 9th, and today is July 3rd. It's really, honestly about living like, enjoying every single moment, you know, like I should have really been thinking about that for the last nine months. But it's really only the last, maybe few weeks, where I really realized that Oh wow, like this might be the last time that not only and I have dinner together where it's just the two of us, and so I'm just really trying to make this time special and and build some new habits that will allow me to be a good father.

I'm secretly hoping that Natalie calls you right now and says, Anthony, it's time, you know, run away from the podcast.

But it would be exciting. That happens today because today is my dad's birthday.

Awesome. Happy birthday to Dad. Happy birthday, Daddy. Yeah, you guys are probably some of the best people I know in terms of being able to keep that work life balance where you guys do consciously check out and have a life of your own and that the same also having because you're running your own business. You can also mix the two. So that's kind of nice, right? Because when you guys go out, you can meet clients and go out at the same time. Look, do you think that's kind of ah, while some part about you owning oranges agency and choosing your hours, that kind of stuff and

yeah, you know, honestly, you're right when you think about it, like I think you know a lot of the things that I'm feeling where whining, you know, like I actually have the luxury of taking off as much time as I want to take off from work indefinitely and still make a paycheck. I have the ability to work from home if I want. Whenever I want. I have the ability to, you know, I don't have to. You know, Natalie and I make the rules. So I think that we are extremely lucky in that we can design our life the way that we want to We have been, and I think we will be able to design in the future. So with that said,

Yeah, I think Natalie and I are in a very lucky position. I just think sometimes we forget that and you know, context is such a weird thing. But you're right. Yeah, yeah, we totally conduce what? You know, things that most employed folks can't.

And, well, you guys also spread it around like I remember hanging out at your office. And your employees are pretty laid back as well, right? And everybody kind of gets to everybody, gets to have a life. It's not just you, it's it's the whole company in which is what makes it so magical. So nine months before having a baby, you know what's the most like, exciting thing that you guys done? And you don't tell me what was the most may be shocking or or unpleasant to adjust. Strange experience that you had about preparing for the baby.

It's been relatively smooth for us. I mean, the pregnancy's been very smooth. Natalie and I are both like focused. We've been prepared in advance. Maybe one of the most shocking things is how supportive all your friends and family can be when this stage of your life happens. Like we have had no shortage of friends that, you know, drop by and and, you know, help my giving us gifts for the baby or gifts for Natalie. I think a lot of people forget that there's a mother there, too. It's not just a baby like our friends have been very thoughtful that, you know, like it's Natalie and Anthony and the baby. It's not just the baby.

And, you know, people have been coming over helping out throwing us, you know, hangouts and all this sort of stuff. I didn't really expect that. I think also another unexpected thing is it's crazy. How, like context in context change how so can your whole strategy. So like, for example, we've been pretty stoked on living, you know, in this house we live in which is a very modern home, But as soon as you know we found out we're having a baby. Something changed in me where all of a sudden like I don't I don't want that I don't want I don't want to live in this house anymore.

I went to live in in a one story house that's safe, and that has designed a certain way for, like, thinking about, you know, you know, a layout for a family versus a layout for two, you know, working professionals. And I think it's just like real. Something's in my brain are really the the way that I think has been the most shocking thing. I didn't really, you know, you don't really know what to expect. That's probably an other than I despise. It's pretty pretty easy.

Yeah, it's a great lesson before everyone listening that you gotta remember. The parents are also there, right? It's not just gonna be the baby, and I mean stoke that you have awesome, awesome friends. By the way, while you're worrying about the house, you know, we know that we have two kids like don't when you have a first baby, you just like, want to protect the baby and wrap everything in bubble wrap. But by the time you have a second baby like, you know, like new tailgate, Yeah,

Optional. You know, like on the sockets. An optional thing the other day. There, like, pretty resilient and pretty good and about taking care of themselves. And they're, like, really smart. So, yeah, you start to let things go because you realize, like, a lot of that was actually pushed in. You buy them by the media and by advertisers saying,

I'll go buy all this stuff and like, no, you know, like, I don't know if how much stuff you already bought but basically don't need, Like most of it. You need, like a bunch of diapers in a couple pair of pants and a couple onesies, and that will serve you for the next six months. And then you'll figure out what you need afterwards, but yeah,

So I have a question for you as a parent of two, you know, what is the acceptable amount of falls? Are cuts or scrapes or scars that a family can expect without having to freak

out, You know? I mean, like, well, I'd say probably don't drop your newborn if you can help it. Although I think when I was a kid, I did fall out of Ah stroller. And you know, I'm still OK on the stairs, so I mean, you know, that might explain some behaviors that Yeah, yeah, yeah, but no, honestly,

I think they're really good about, like, not hurting. You'll be surprised. Like even little babies. They're really flexible, right? Like, I mean, our old I had our fingers, like, once, stuck in the door like she fell off the counter wants and that those kind of things and yeah, it happened then just go on. And they seem to be okay, so I'd say Don't freak out too much.

Where was it? I think it was one of the camps for the older one where they said, you know, kids are supposed to have, like, scratches and bruises on that castor. That's fine. Just and really, it is, I mean, to an extent, but minor things are perfectly fine. Just just don't even worry about it. I'm

really o c d like I'm the kind of person that won't wear a pair of new sneakers. If it gets a scratch on it, and I freak out when I get like a scar on myself. For when Natalie like, if Natalie gets a cut, if she doesn't take care of it, a scars, it freaks me out, and I'm I'm worried about projecting that particular OSI tenancy on another human being. That's my child. And over in being too overprotective.

Yeah, I was just reading an article the other day is sort of related tangentially. They did a study between American kids and mine kids, and how American kids weren't able to pay attention as much as mine kids is because American parents do everything for their Children and Children. Forget how to, like pay attention and learn on their own. And the other kids were performing much better because they're so used to doing ah, chores and errands and just sitting there and observing what adults are doing. So they were, like, astronomically better it pay attention. It's just a example of how is a parent you can really influence your kids and, like this overbearing behavior can actually create a negative outcome. So, yeah, maybe, you know he's on the city.

But on the other hand, like little babies Low, baby. Oh, you'll figure it out. So, you know, there's always a podcast so you can listen to what other parents are doing and

Oh, yeah, yeah, there is a podcast that.

But speaking off, like you said, you've listened to some episodes. How's it going so far? You know, Did you pick up on anything that you think you're gonna find us full?

I think the parts of the conversations that there was one in particular I can't remember who the guest was. But it was a conversation about how he was upset at the child for months after it was born because of what the child did to his wife's body in her to her. And I think that I'm I mean, I'm expecting a very smooth delivery, but that's that's probably me, right? Like I you know, first and foremost, I care about Natalie that it's weird to say this, maybe it's not. But the most important person in my life is Natalie, not this baby. And I know that that might change in the future when I'm a father and I'm thinking about, you know, self preservation and the family line, and you know the future generation will that. But at least right now, the only person in my life that is the most important is Natalie. And the baby is just a new family member that's in our life. I'm trying everything that I can do to make sure that the baby is in our life, and not that we're in the baby's life is it doesn't make sense.

I think it's totally makes sense. And on the podcast, you think even if was with Lexi and yeah, that's right, Yeah, yeah, I think it makes sense and even what you're saying about preserving family line, that kind of stuff. I think that's also the society just imposing certain rules and constraints. And you, in reality, you can have your life here. You own that, especially in your case, right where your business is tied to your life so tightly and your business is what kind of creates your living that I think it's perfectly fine that Natalie is the most important person right now.

Yeah, I want to be a good father. I want to you know, I want to be a good father. I want to be a good husband because I think I have to be great at those two things, like, you know, for things not to completely blow up. I need to be a great father and a great husband. And then, secondarily, I need to be a great leader for the other people that you know, that that I take care of every day and hopefully a better son. But I don't want it's important for me for this baby to live in the world that I live in. Like if I want to listen to punk rocker heavy metal music at 11 or 12 in the morning, I'm going to do that until the baby can express to me that that's too loud. You know, I if if I need to take the baby on business trips or to networking events or to work, I'm gonna do that. The baby is in our life like I'm optimizing for that experience, not the not the opposite.

I'm very curious to see how that's going to change after you're actually have the baby, because I think at least in my experience, some some adjustments have to be made made and they're not really negative. They're just that that they enable you to have more life. Like, for example, our kids go to sleep like 6 p.m. For the younger one and seven for the older one. Maybe some 30 sometimes right? Which sounds crazy like, Well, they go to sleep so early and like Yeah, sure, But they sleep till six o'clock in the morning, which means from, you know, 7 p.m. to midnight We get our time back ourselves So we don't have Thio like some parents will keep their babies up till 10. And the babies will be that in their life,

which is fine. But for us, it's just like while they're sleeping. So now we have time for ourselves. And that's just the adjustment we found for ourselves, right? That's interesting. Yeah, that's just something to keep in mind that maybe you don't have to force it like on the baby. You know those things, like, if you want to listen to punk rock, you could listen with the baby or you get the headphones on. And, um, I've done a lot of that with think both kids when they were,

like, super young for the 1st 6 months, where you try to put him to sleep. I'll put on headphones on and listened to a podcast and rock him to sleep or whatever it needs to be done. But this way can multitask like especially a little babies. They don't really care. They just there.

That's Ah, that's really interesting. And I think that you're probably right about this. I think a lot of the fears that I have are I'm just, you know, just my mind is going crazy and I'm just kind of nervous. And so you know, sometimes that nervousness gets expressed as like extreme excitement, and sometimes that nervousness gets expressed as uncomfortable ity or the need to protect right like you know, are you know things like that. But I really think that it is probably going to just work itself out like everything else does.

And I am kind

of excited about the making some changes in my life. I think that it would be good for me as a human being not to be a good to be healthy personally and to be a good husband and to be a good leader. I think going to bed earlier and waking up earlier in general would be a very positive life changed for me. I think having more responsibility outside of work and going on a journey of becoming less one dimensional like work is not the most important thing in the world. That's that's very healthy. I'm also excited about picking up new habits like you're talking about, like, you know, some of the things that just happened. And I think one of the things that I'm most excited about is ah, my my good friend Steven Rae recommended that I would start a habit of reading to the baby every night forever, like forest, long as I can, because it it is a way to read to the baby. But it's also a way to read things that I'm interested in, and I haven't had that I haven't had. I don't get time like that now. And if if I could design that into my life, you know, maybe these things will make me better.

That's actually exciting. So instead of reading baby books, what you're saying is pick up a book you want to read and just start reading

that didn't read it out loud. Yeah,

huh. That's a great hack never thought about it.

Yeah, at least until you know, it gets to a certain age where you know you can't do that anymore. But I'm pretty excited

about that. It sounds like you've been picking up on a lot of advice, right? From other parents and friends. I

sort of, you know, you know how it is. Like everyone is gonna give. Everyone gives you advice. You're just a flood. Like they give you advice when you don't want to hear it. I've just been, like, selecting the best of the best ideas, and then just sort of writing them down and banking it and, you know, see what? See what happens, But you never know. Like this baby could come And something might change in me where I don't ever want to go back to fun size. Maybe I want to be a stay home, Dad. You just never know.

Stay home. Days are awesome.

Maybe I wanna, you know, just, you know, focus on, baby. Yeah. It's hard to imagine what's gonna happen when we see this little child. And it's also really strange because, you know, I don't know if most dads are expecting dads feel this way. But Natalie asked me several weeks ago, Do you feel a connection to this child? And I said, because he's not incite growing inside of my body and sharing my blood and my food, and I can't feel it kick, you know,

I can see it kick, and I can feel it kick every now and then. But I don't expect that I will be able to develop a connection with this child until, you know, weeks after this child is born. Is that do you think that that's pretty normal?

I don't know. I don't remember anymore. I don't remember what it was like before having kids. That's kind of fun part about interviewing you right now. Maybe we'll find out what you feel like, you know, three months from now and whether that's changed. But what you're experiencing is exactly what Alexey was talking about in his podcast, how for the first two years he basically didn't feel the connection until his baby started talking and all of a sudden he got a feedback loop in that got really exciting. So I think that's normal for some parents is just the society makes it look like you know, everybody's gotta love the kids from the minus nine months and be excited about it.

It's crazy, crazy stuff, man. It's weird that people like me can. You should even feel nervous about this. I mean, people have been having babies for well since, you know, the beginning of time, and it's it's such a natural, normal thing. It's just weird how it doesn't happen as often as it used to. You know, people waiting and you know, people waiting till much later in life to have a baby. You're only having one and smaller families, people living in smaller places. And it's just kind of crazy when you really think about it.

Speaking of crazy, So let's go back to fun size and baby's due in a couple of days. You guys doing anything about preparing the business for the child or you just gonna stay at work right through and oh, for the best?

We had a lot to do, and we started planning for this. As soon as we found out that we were expecting, there isn't of quite a big list of things that we needed to do both at home in it and at work. But we knew that we should probably start with work first because if we could stable, if we could get things set up in a certain a specific way at work, it would probably lead Toa less stress more focused on the baby and ultimately, a happier life down the road. So we we focused on further defining, at least for a period of time. What roles I would play it, the company and what roles Now they would. Natalie would play, and we gave Ah, promotion and new responsibilities and autonomy to Mari are our managing director now who used to be director of operations. So we built up the leadership team. We also hired another design director and hired a few designers just to make sure we have all the pieces and components that we need to so that the business is okay.

We've also invested into other programs like, for example, invested in outbound sales because, you know, not knowing how long I'll be out, it was important for me to make sure that we're still get. We still are making connections with new companies. We had to create ah, maternity and paternity policy that we felt would is good for us. That was also good for everyone else in the company. We had to sort of figure out, you know, what kinds of projects, both internally and for clients that we felt like was smart to take on. You know, like,

for example, like, right now at this phase, like we're not taking on any new task, like anything that's like a new client or a new task definitely doesn't go to me or Natalie goes to someone else. We're just trying to tie up loose ends right now. But there is a lot I mean that that that's just those are just some examples. Another one is figuring out the childcare thing. So you know Madi, who I mentioned who's our managing director, was telling us about her experience. She's always had a full time nanny s. So she's, you know, she's been feeding us all the knowledge about interviewing nannies, what they cost,

what to expect, like should you offer them paid vacation, should you offer them benefits and all this sort of stuff? And, ah, Natalie's parents a couple months ago decided that they they wanted to retire. Eso were like huh? What if we move you to Austin and put you on salary to take care of the baby and cover your cost of living? So what we're doing right now is we're actually buying an investment home, and, um, gonna put her family in there and they will take care of the baby. And we're gonna pay them a salary that allows you know them to take this seriously where they can actually live pretty well on comparable. Maybe even more than you know what they're doing. You know, right now where they can retire and that puts our that gives us the ability to have a full time nanny.

That is Ah, that is Grandma and Grandpa and an aunt that can teach them Teach our baby boy Vietnamese. We know that it since it's family that certain things were gonna be possible. Like finding if Natalie and I want to go on vacations overseas. No problem. We got weekend care if we went date night. No problem. We got date night care. No overtime. You know nothing and gives us also a rental property. And it gives us all of that within, you know, three minutes of where we work and live. All these three locations will be 33 minutes away from each other. So I think that's probably going to be really interesting for our life cause at least for the first year while they're here, it'll I think it'll be an easier transition for us to sort of,

you know, getting baby mode. But also, I think it's the it's gonna be really important to allow us to do. The things that we need to do right now is like our business depends on regular travel to the Bay Area and to the West Coast in general, so the business can operate if we don't. If we cannot travel regularly, then we don't have a business or we'd have to move to the West Coast. So I'm rambling. But, yeah, we had to do a lot of things to get ready for this baby.

No, no, that's that's great. And you get a super lucky that Natalie's parents are going to do this. I mean, you might have a bit of a challenge adjusting that there's gonna be basically her family around all the time, right, but realistically speaking, right. But I think this is brilliant because if you want, like a professional nanny to take care of your kid, that's like $50,000 a year. Right then $50,000 is a down payment on a house. So this whole investment totally makes sense and maybe even knowing how hard working. Or maybe this is a great time that will allow you to switch gears and actually step. But I can have the business run like if if nothing crashes severely, you'll be able to take your time back and then say, Huh, Maybe I don't have to go back full time, But that

could be really good for me, you know, because I mean, I have literally been hustling for 20 years, you know, like working really freaking hard. The last five years at fun size have been the easiest. You know, I don't I don't work evenings or weekends anymore, but I'm still working hard. And, uh, you know, in this transition period, I told Mari, are managing director like I only want to work on the 20% of things that are the most important to the business, and I think that it would be great if that could be my job moving forward. Just the just the this, the few things that matter the most.

I want to see if there's anything even deeper that you want to share, because, I mean, it is kind of a dramatic experience for you guys. In a way, um, if you don't know when you guessed, it is gonna be very different. And I wonder whether you realize how different will be or you hope that you can steer it away from being different.

You know, my my life with, you know, I've been with Natalie, you know, since you know, 2006 and no, you know, my life with her is just has been in just awesome adventure. You know, we we do, You know, we do all kinds of cool things together, both, you know, personal play and work. And I don't want that to change,

You know, like, I know that things will change in the nature that will change, but I want to continue developing that relationship with my life partner. I don't. I'm where I'm worried about. Yeah, I'm just worried about that. You know, like I'm worried about. I'm worried about the nature of our relationship changing

question. Is there anything you want to know or worry about? About what's gonna happen the next couple of weeks that we gonna circle back and talk about, you know, three months from now?

I don't know. Like, I think the thing that we that we've been thinking about the most right now is whether or not we want to do this sleep training program. I know a couple of people who have done this in a very, very, very short time. The baby is sleeping on its own, and I know some people that are too scared to do that because they can't stand to hear their baby cry. That's that's probably the thing that I'm top of my mind just because I know it's gonna probably be one of the first things that we deal with. The other thing is breastfeeding Sounds like a crazy job. Natalie thinks that she's going to be able to breastfeed for months and months and months and months and run a business and come, You know, I come back to work after three months like I don't think that's possible. I mean, I've been Natalie says, I'll be gone for three months. I'm Attorney Lee,

and I'm like, Yeah, right. You're probably out for least six months, then those air. So those are probably the two things that are the biggest unknowns, you know,

how long you taking for paternity leave?

I can't remember. I think we in the policy that we created, I think I have, technically, two months. And then I also have, like, all my Petey. Oh, so I think what I'm gonna do Well, what I want to do is this. Use my opportunity, leave when it's needed the most When Natalie needs me the most. So I'm not gonna take my paternity. I'm gonna take my paternity a week off. The first week the baby's here, maybe the second week and then I'm probably going to use more days when my on the on the weekends that my family's here,

not the weekends at her, not the weeks of her family's here. I just don't want it like there's no need for me to be there and her family to be there and use all that time off. I'd rather be around when she needs support. So I I'm I'm not sure if I'll take an extended period of time off, or if I work part time for several months, or if I'll just take at Hawk days off, depending on when Natalie needs me. I I haven't figured that out and economy that give my team a Plan A and A Plan B. But I'm not sure what to do.

I think they'll figure it out there. They're smart, but that's actually make some plan. I have a friend in the neighbor who, um, I What's the kid? I think is about six months now. And he's actually taking his paternity leave now, as opposed to earlier, so that, you know, once all the parents have left, I mean, Natalie's parents are gonna be around. But that's that's a great plan that you can actually stretch it further into the kid's future and and

do then, yeah, you know, at first when I told not only that, she's like, Why would why would you not want to be there? And I was like Natalie, like, you know, it doesn't make sense for, you know, your mom and your dad and your aunt and you to be there. They're gonna be taking care of you right. You're You're gonna be busy. Like I'm just gonna be sitting around in the way. Wouldn't you rather me be there when they're gone? She's like,

Oh, yeah. But like at first that that that almost cost her to think that I didn't care about the baby. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so that's been a challenge for me. Two for me, too. Be able to communicate with her the way in which I want to help and why I want to help that way and in it and having it align with her vision of what I'm supposed to be doing. That makes sense.

It does. I can't wait to hear You know how this changes. Oh, it doesn't change a few months from now And whether the plants have worked or there's a new plan, Plan Z in place.

I guess he just got a figure it out. You probably know, you know best.

Well, we did a lot of things our own way, and some of them worked out. Some of them didn't like you mentioned sleep training. Our first kid didn't do any sleep trading. We couldn't handle the crying, but she also had a thing. It's personality dependent and we didn't get the timing right and we traveled a lot. So that'll got into the whole sleep. Training basically ruined it for us. But the 2nd 1 we did like two days of sleep training. And then she sleeps in her own. Wow, I know it's been amazing, but, you know, if we only have one child, I would have never known that this is like the second version is possible.

Well, in a in a way, do you think it's easier to have one or two

Children? Well, I think it's definitely easier to have one like you'll hear other guests in the podcast say that Ah, you watch how like, Well, it's a lot of work. You have two Children. What was what was What was I thinking? All right, that's so much work. And then you have apparently, when you have three kids, you're like two kids with a vacation, so Hee do think it's probably gets harder because it's more time intensive, but it's nice. Once you have two kids and they can play

together, that's right, like when they're older and they can watch out for each other, you know, and hold each other accountable. I mean, yeah, sure. They're gonna, like, pester their shit out of each other. But I know like I know, like I grew up enough with, you know, two siblings. And, you know,

when we were a certain age, my parents could just trust us, too. Watch each other and take care of each other a little bit. Yeah,

All right. So that was part one of my conversation with Anthony at that point. He's eagerly awaiting the new baby, but he's also planning to have the baby be part of their life and not to have to dance around the baby and to plan their life to accommodate the newborn. Let's find out what happens shortly. But first, a quick word from our sponsor clip gain. Io is a wonderful tool for any podcaster to make your episodes sounds professional, with no work at all. Just upload your file, get a cup of tea or coffee. Whatever you in tow. Comeback in your file. Sounds like it's been edited with a professional editor. You quite literally don't have to do anything, but your podcast will sound so much better to find out more. Go to clip gain dot io.

That's C L I p g A i n dot io and take a look for yourself. And now let's get back to Anthony Armand Ours. This next conversation happens exactly a year later. You know, last time we talked, there was basically couple main points like you were very conservative. I could tell, you know, the baby was about to come and you were very conservative where you didn't really want to like a fan, Natalie, Or, like, say anything that was potentially, you know, like upsetting around the baby of the family. But at the same time,

you kind of admitted to the fact that at the time, baby didn't feel very important. The business was important. You guys were integral part of the business. And so it wasn't quite clear how the business was going to run. Where you gonna be busy with the baby? And that always definitely was gonna be busy with the baby. You know, that was all that in play. So I want to I want to talk to you about what it's like now. Here later. You know where the business is, where you guys are. How is your relationship? How is your relationship to the baby and whether it matched to your expectations or it's widely different?

Yeah, so much to pack unpack there. I remember around the time that I talk to you. I mean, honestly, I was probably just really scared and concerned because, you know, to be perfectly honest, I never wanted to have kids. Having kids wasn't something that I ever thought was important to me or to my perception of success or happiness. And so, honestly, it was really difficult because, you know, during you know all those initial visits to the to the doctor in preparing to have the baby and even delivering the baby, I really I wasn't sure if I really wanted to be a dad, you know?

And part of it was because I was worried about business. A lot of it was more selfishness like my you know, it just ego, like Anthony's own ego, Sort of like speaking out. I don't know why. I think maybe I felt that way because I'd spent most of my twenties in my thirties, like, really struggling financially, and I felt like now that I'm in my forties with a successful business, I'm finally able to spending time and money on myself. And I think that the other day I really wasn't ready to give up focusing on myself. But, you know, I mean, as,

as you know, firsthand, you know, when when the baby comes in to your life I mean things dramatically changed. You know it. I mean, I instantly fell in love with him, you know, from the very first moment. And, you know, from that very, you know, first hour even I couldn't imagine not being a dad. It was the infants. Infancy stage was a lot easier than I expected.

Like it was, I found it pretty easy to do a lot of the things that I thought would be hard, like changing diapers and putting him to sleep and caring for him. All of that I found pretty pretty easy to do, but I didn't relief e. I don't know if other dads feel this way, but I didn't really develop a strong connection with him until he was maybe six or nine months old when he started toe, actually notice me. And now that he like, quite literally is turning one years old tomorrow. I'm pretty excited about it because, you know, he wants to be around with me. You can tell, you know, he's being affectionate and,

you know, in reacting to me, and, um, I'm starting to find that some of my most favorite things to do right now are being with him, you know, like I would no, no disrespect anyone at work. But I would obviously much rather be with him than anyone at work. And I would much rather be with him than working and and all that on the business side of things, you know, I was I was worried about the business struggling because I was worried about losing Natalie, but she, you know, despite all I mean, if she's doing a lot,

you know, she's done a lot of hard work, and it's been really difficult for us because our baby hasn't been a good sleeper. But we're both still working, and we're both still getting work done. It made us it made it forced us to prioritize. So instead of trying to work on everything like we're able to work on maybe 10% 20% of the things that matter the most to us or the business. And so, in a way, like our work has gotten easier. Plus, we have, like, tons of people in the company that have risen to the occasion and have taken over leadership and ownership of certain things. And you know where to the extent where were, you know,

Natalie and I could totally be out of work for many, many days or weeks, and the businesses is going to be great. What's really what really blows my mind is that the biggest amount of growth that our company has ever had has been in this last year. So, um yeah, it's been, you know, that those were some of the notes about like, where we are right now. The hardest thing for us has been the sleeping like he just won't sleep. He has to be rocked to sleep every night for a year. He wakes up every two or three hours every single night for an entire year. He won't sleep on his own, uh, Helen,

that he'll eventually end up in the bed with us. And we've been debating, you know, options to try to figure out how to get our sleep in our sanity back. But we don't really want to do the sleep training, so we're just trying to deal with it and and just trying to enjoy the the moments and the experiences that we have while we have them.

Last year you were talking about losing Natalie and doing business is a separate things, but not actually makes sense that you get such an integral part of each other and the business. That e Guess you will worry that if you were gonna be busy with the baby and not be part of the business that maybe you're not, you and her were gonna be as close together either because of that, you know, like breakage in the business connection that

he was with the business stuff. I was worried that a number of things could happen. Like number one. I was worried that she would no longer want to be in the business. That was probably the biggest thing, because I you know, I've talked to a lot of people where that's happened, where the mother or the father decided. No, I'm just gonna be a stay at home. Mom or Dad. That was my biggest fear because I believe that she is. You know, the greatest asset that I have are one of the one of the biggest assets that fun size has. The other thing that I was worried about was our ability to grow, you know, like I was worried that finances or time or another, another factors would start our business growth.

So you guys were in that lovely video by Dan Petty called beyond avatars, Right? And we're Natalie basically admitted, though, that that was a few months ago. With that when she had the baby, she really did want to stay home with the baby. And I mean, business was great, but like the baby was kind of a lot more important. Is that fair to say that still true or it's changing.

I think we don't You think, you know, feel the same way. You know, like baby is obviously the most important thing. You know, everything else comes second. We just found, you know, like we're just lucky because we have, you know, ah, you know, 20 to 24 person sized business and plenty of leadership that can keep the business going like if we didn't have that. If we weren't at the size that we're at, it would have been a completely different story. You know,

like if we were still Ford eight people, this might have dramatically changed our desire to want to be running a business. But, you know, we have 24 people, so you know we have. We've invested a lot of time over the years and growing people in the leadership role. So a lot of those a lot of those fears were just fears and a something. It was quite surprising to see what you know, what people would do and how they would proactively take leadership in her absence.

That's pretty impressive. 24 people since like it was tripling things since last

year. Well, two years, it's hard for me to think year by year. I know that two and 1/2 years ago, we were eight people homes

like let's get to the business side of just a minute before we get too far away. I wanna It wasn't quite a question, and I hate giving parenting advice, but this one I I feel like I must in terms of the sleep training, because what you're describing. It was exactly us with our first child. And the opposite of that was us with a second child who basically sleeps through the night, goes to bed on her own, and I I don't even have to read a book or sing a song or anything. They're very different, right? In terms of personalities. But, man, you might actually want to consider it to that sleep training thing. It only lasts for, like,

two or three days. So the intimidates you're not listening to any baby crying all that long, but they might asleep. You actually start getting afterwards is definitely worth it. The key part is figuring out when your baby is ready for it. Because I remember it clearly. That was, like for a while. They're not actually ready for it. But you don't. You're gonna have to sense it on your own. But then

on, son, you're like, Okay, you know what? Today I'm

just gonna leave you in bed and they the great for a while, and then

the I, like every you know, like you assume before you have a baby that you know, they're coming into your world and they will just deal with your world that then you quickly realize that they are people with their own personality in their own preferences, right and their own, their own thing and the sleep training. Something is something that we've spent a lot of time looking into. I haven't. We're we've developed. We've started to develop a pretty strong opinion against it because we read a few medical reports and was talking about how there's, like two different kinds of babies and human beings like babies and human beings that really need an emotional touch where crying doesn't help them go to sleep. It actually makes them more anxious. And then there's a type of baby who were they crave crying because it actually makes them relax. And this. The studies show that that personality never changes. So if you have a baby type, that is that first height and your sleep training them what you're essentially training them is it is that you're not going to help them when they're at like there most anxious and stressed out moment,

and there is a strong in this report. There's a strong link to sleep training with those kind of babies and a lifetime of depression. That's fabulous. Way to abandon you tell we have decided, is that he's only gonna be a baby for a brief moment in time. And instead of sleep training, we're gonna enjoy every minute with him, even even if it's even even if we're not sleeping.

You know, that's awesome. Because I distinctly remember you talking last year. Say no, no. You know, you were very much afraid that the baby is gonna come in and the baby's gonna dictate the rules. And you were saying No, like, this thing is gonna be my life. And the baby's gonna join my life. And in fact, I think you talk too, Rick. One of you. Ah, designer assured the guy who used to be a designer find science writer.

He told you that, like, you know, if if you if you want to listen to music before I am like you listen to music and you let your kid listen to music and you're like, Yeah, that's this is gonna be us. And it sounds like a year into you, like Yep. Okay, babies. Yeah. Babies, Lightning. Let's do

this. But you know,

I think there's a balance you know, like you know, we, uh it's also hard for it's Another problem is that it's because of the type of life's we live and, you know, think about it like we always have to travel in a moment's notice to San Francisco or Boston or overseas. And it is almost impossible for us to keep him on a consistent schedule.

Right? You just did this insane trip to what? Greenland? No, I forget. Where was it? Iceland. Iceland? Yeah. Yeah, with a baby for, like, a week. A short getaway with the 24 hour flight. How is that possible?

It was an experiment. We wanted him to get used to being on airplanes, and we would we definitely want to be able to travel with him because traveling is something that we know we have to do for work. And we know that we won't. We need to do it because it's something that we care about. And so, you know, we just you know, we you know Mari, you know there are managing director had given us loads of tips on ways to do things. You know how to take care of the baby on the trip different devices and stuff like that. And so we just figured we'd try it out like it's not in an extremely long overseas fight, you know, like, you know, from, for example,

like for Minneapolis, where we connected. It was only a five hour by, you know, So it's not like going to, you know, going like eight hours or 10 hours might have been a way different, but it was a good way to sort of, you know, kind of test that out.

No, it's It's great that you're saying that because it's really easy to baby the baby, right? And not do that. Another ride that on the podcast. Abby L. Ginsberg. He's Ah, VC. Here in Seattle, he was saying that his baby took 13 flights in his 1st 12 months of life. Whoa. Uh, yeah, but But what it is is I think they took them. They took the kid on the every business trip that he went on. So about once a month,

you know? But that allows the family to have a couple of days off serve, you know, impromptu vacation. So I guess you manage rate at

the end of the day. Yeah, you know, completely different conversation. But I'll be really curious to see how he or who takes care of his baby while he's on a business trip.

Well, he takes his wife, and she she doesn't while he has to go to a meeting or something. But then, yeah, I mean, you balance for it, but this way, you don't have to miss the child and tell Doesn't miss you like everybody is happily doing something together. Yeah. What? That's pretty great that you guys are co existing with a baby. If he could just

sleep, man, things would be like, Perfect. Oh, yeah.

Another six. That's another 6 to 12 months and you'll be fine.

Yeah, well, that's good. Anything.

I'm gonna go by fast. Yeah. Okay, so let's talk about business. You know, for the folks who like contemplating kids or have young kids and are running a stressful business because before having a kid, you put all these gears in place to prepare your business to basically be autonomous. And you just said that it crew fasted and ever Yeah. Doesn't mean you're basically ready to step back and let the business do it. Sze thing Well, you go back to being a full time dad.

I don't think that either of us are at a point yet where we want to be a full time stay at home parent. But and I don't I can't necessarily speak for Natalie, but I'm definitely at a point where I want and need Thio work less. I'm in my forties and I've been, you know, I know that everyone has their own story, but I've been really hustling for since I was about 18 years old, working just working really hard, like only only working. Really, I desperately need and want more time to focus on myself and on my relationship with Julian and my relationship with my wife, Natalie, and I am working. But I'm just working less, and I'm being more focused on the things that I'm most passionate about and the impact the business the most. And then you have to your point, right,

Like the more people you have in your company, the more opinions you know, people want opportunity, And I think you know, at some extent you have to be willing to let the business grow so that you can do these other things that you want to do, right? Like there's a number of scenarios, right? Like maybe it's not a bad idea to hire more designers so that you don't have to work, let it work as much, right? Or maybe it is okay to promote someone to an executive level position so that you don't have to make all those decisions that you used to have to make. And maybe, at least for us, growing wasn't planned it, But it has allowed us to have a better balance life,

especially with maybe if, like I said earlier, like if we were 10 people, I probably would it would probably be very, very difficult. But aren't

you stressing out more now because you have more bills to pay and you know more clients to support, and you have to go chase more clients? Was the business now just better off that other people are able to find clients for you? So you're not the one doing all the sales

work? Um, I haven't really worried about money and our business for about two years. We have ah, you know, just because of things that you know different things that we've done, or that we were lucky to have that have put us in a position like we have a very, very, very, very solid financial team who would be able to warn us in six months if we were predicting cash flow problems. The business itself has so much money in the bank that we could probably operate for a year without a single client. The and that doesn't even include, like, not a not a year. That's wrong. That's an exaggeration. But I constantly say that we could operate for six months if we lost all of our clients and and then we have line of credit,

which would keep us going for another. You know, another, you know, month or two and also our model for business development is focused on account management, so most of our revenue is coming from extended relationships with our existing clientele. That's about 80% of our business. We only bring it about 10 or 20% net new clients per year, so it allows our staff to impact our sales by focusing on servicing our clients extremely well and providing strong account management related focus versus a sales focus and you know it's in. So, like now and then on top of that, you know, we have Mari, who's our managing director who pretty much, you know, you know,

is running at a TTE least 1/3 of all of our business. So, you know, we just have really strong people and systems in place that we don't really work. Have to worry about those things. Not sure what we want to be conservative. We want to make sure we're protected, but it doesn't stress me out. Sorry, that was a long way of saying I'm not stressed

out about that.

No, that's amazing. That's amazing cause, you know, I remember every time I meet you. Over the last couple of years, you were always pretty stressed. Even if you were doing well, the company would always be stressed about what's next. You know, how do we grow? How do we make more money? Ah, Anthony's always stressed. So it's great to hear that Now that you have a kid, you're just sleep deprived. But But finally,

after 20 years of working on, you know, design, you're not stressed anymore. That's amazing.

It also eat like you have a choice, right like you can choose to be stressed out or not. And this is something that I'm learning. Like, for example, like if you have an opportunity to grow and you hire more people, yes, that does cause you tow have to bring in more sales, which could make things more stressful, right? But if you have good systems in place and you know you're protected that alleviate some of that stress now, if you really think about it in the most basic form, if you have a bad year, if you have a bad quarter, you don't like business is a business and businesses can shrink. Their business is right. And yes,

it sucks to ever imagine the disaster of having to let people go that you love. But what's better giving them, you know, having an opportunity to work together for a few years or never having that opportunity at all, you know? So when I look at it that way, I start thinking, Well, you know, it's okay, right? You can expect a certain amount of people leaving your company because they're they're going on to new adventures, and then you get to reevaluate how you're gonna spend that money and, you know, and you have to take some risks And, you know,

in most businesses can expect over their lifetime periods where they're growing and where they're scaling down a little bit. You know, we haven't We've never had a point where we've scaled down. But it would be ridiculous to think that that would never happen in our company's history, you know?

Right? And what's the worst that happens, Right? Okay. You let somebody go for awhile? I actually I was reading about slack, right? And how a Stewart Butterfield first started with his gaming company before they were doing slag. Then they had to basically fire pretty much everyone. But when they started slack and slack started doing well, they actually hired a bunch of their previous employees back into slack. Because, I mean, like, once you're working with people, you know, they're good. Yeah. Yeah. I like life. Life moves on.

Yeah, it's just it's just one of those things. Like, you know, you have a choice and deciding how you you know how you want these things to affect your your stress level to some extent. So

tell me one thing, you guys had to do before having a baby. And you you did it for fun. Size as a whole is create a paternity and maternity policy. Now that you have a kid, would you change anything about your policies? You know, now that you actually know what it's like,

Oh, my God, I would double or triple it, get to know it. Yeah, I mean, and I felt like we created something that was pretty good for a small family owned business. But even at that, it's just not enough, you know, especially for moms, man. I mean, watching not only go through what she went through, like they're just super heroes, like, you know,

and to do all of that go through all of that and work at the same time. I mean, Jesus. Uh, you know, But it's it's hard because, you know, if you're if you're a heavily funded tech company, maybe you can give people six or nine months. But you know, when you're in, client service is and you're depending on, you know, buildings and stuff like that. It's it's a lot harder, but yeah,

I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think that I think people everywhere should just be given more time for their kids. Or maybe more. Or maybe even if you can't create, like, a really, really long maternity and paternity program at least be flexible with people to let them choose when they want, uh, to be out Or let them, you know, because, like, you may not even want that whole. Like,

for example, if I could go back in time, I wouldn't have taken all my paternity leave upfront. I would have taken a few days during the birth, and then, you know, my in laws were in town, so Natalie had people to take care of her. Anyway, I was just in the way. I would have taken my paternity leave weeks later when the family was gone and Natalie really needed me, you know? So why didn't you? Well, I did, You know,

like I know I'm lucky enough that, you know, is the owner of the company. You know, I could do what I want, you know, And my my team was flexible with me, you know? But not everyone has that luxury. And, you know, even even now, like, you know, we have we have someone at the office it's taking that's going to going to be having a baby. Can't mention who it is.

But, you know, I gave him some of that advice. I was like, Look, you know, we think at least think about that because maybe it may be you want to take the time when when you need it the most. Or maybe at a time when you're connecting with the baby more or maybe even, you know, need the flexibility to spread it out over a very long period of time. But yeah, I mean, I just I just can't stress enough about it, at least for Mom's like it's really difficult. And mother should mothers really should be given a proper proper time off and proper flexibility. It's, of course, easier for Dad's, but still, it's hard to right

now. It's great to hear you say that, because I think still not a lot of dads and, you know, male business owners would admit to this being the case. Yeah, one more thing, because when we chatted last time, you said that there's a big difference between being with your family and being around your family. Now that the business is doing well. And you guys, you know, have some time to relax and be with the kid. What do you think? Have you been able to find that the fine balance where you are able to be present with a child

right now? Yes. In the earlier months, not so much like in the earlier months. I was still finding myself, like trying to look a female or trying to take phone calls. Or like maybe even being frustrated about trying to rock him to sleep because I was trying to think about something else, you know, and I really, you know, have just become ex excited about giving him my full attention and also giving Natalie my full attention. So over the last maybe two or three months I've been making I've been trying to do everything that I can to make sure that like when I'm home, I'm just 120% at home. I don't allow you know any any emails, Thio. Notify me or, you know,

like I'm even trying to design my life in a certain way where I could do that, like, I haven't actually done this yet. But, you know, I've debated, like, removing all all acts for my phone at, like at all, like all of them. But at the very least, when I'm home, I'm not looking at my phone at all for any reason whatsoever. I think Natalie, you know, is a little bit different.

But for me, like I'm I'm really trying to be their present. Really soak in the entire experience, like, you know, even if you think about it. Even if you're taking photos of your baby, you're not really You're not really there in the moment and you're not going to remember as much because you were behind a camera. But if you're there and the camera's gone and like you're just there, right and all that energy is just is there, like, I feel like it's it's a much better experience and stuff that'll last longer because time goes so fast, you know, like I started to think, you know, 3 to 6 months into Julian's life,

I was like, shit that I should have. I should have spent more time with him in those 1st 3 months because you just you look back and it's already been a year, right? And so I don't know. I just think that those moments are so important that you just really need everything that's not family completely out of the way. And, you know, like, I don't know. For me, that means, like not not having any technology involved in any time when our family is spending time together.

That's amazing. To hear it feel like, personally, you're also going through a very Zen transition is Anthony and never mind the baby. That's amazing.

I'm trying to be a better person, you know, because, you know, like I realized that I was being selfish, you know? You know, I'm trying to let go of him, and what I've learned is that, like, it's well, you know, if I can let go, that's, um that's selfishness and some of that stuff and put Natalie and the baby first. Like I mean, you know,

everyone's happier, you know, Uh, and there's plenty of timeto work, right? You know, you you know, if you can if you're especially if you're self employed, it's so easy to let things bleed. But, you know, if you really think about it like, what's What's so bad about limiting work to an eight hour work day. Right? What is What's so wrong with, Like telling a client?

No, sorry, I can't talk to you until tomorrow morning. Furthermore, what's wrong with, like working less than eight hours, right? Like what's wrong with, like, spinning for really good hours at work versus, like, eight okay hours at work, you know?

Yes, the reality is nothing wrong with that. But everyone who hasn't realized this yet will try to convince you that eight hours is really the most productive or maybe even 16 hours. You know, you can do so much more, not realizing that you could just be better at doing things. And that's all. Yeah, there's a lot of great advice here. If I haven't asked you something yet. Is there anything else you want to like? Tell busy parents being parents to be, you know, giving that what you've learned so far?

It sounds cliche, because it's what everyone told me, and I didn't really I was like, Oh, yeah, that's what everyone says, but it's so true, like time just goes by so fast. You know, you you think about your marriage or your relationship with your significant other Natalie and I just celebrated. Our are are 10 year wedding anniversary, and I've been thinking to myself, man, it would have been nice to have spent more, like, real quality time with her, because now,

with the baby here, our definition of quality time is different, aren't weak, the the availability of alone time is much different. In a way, I feel like I've neglected the moments that I had with Natalie that that that will never be able to replace. And that same same thing happens with the baby, right? Like they're only gonna you know, they go, they change so fast, you know, And there, you know, and each stage is is really awesome. But,

you know, you got to just really enjoy it because it you know, it's just gonna move so fast, and and I think that that's really it. Like, if you're gonna if you're gonna have if you're gonna bring another human into the world, I mean, you need to realize that you're dealing with another human being that has a personality and wants and needs and feelings. That's not just a baby. It's into It's a it's a you right, It's Ah, it's a best friend. It's Ah, get someone that you really need to treat properly, You know, just like any other relationship needs love and carrying. And, uh, development.

This is great advice. Really glad you're saying it.

What about you? I mean, what do you told new parents to be

in general? There is. I'm having this podcast is because I don't like telling people anything. You know, it's it's it's up to you to figure out your own way, and we're not gonna agree on most, most things with most people. But that's fine. I think as long as people can take little bits here and there that resonate with them. But I do like the fact that you're saying that it's okay to, you know, relax and to be present to spend more time with your kids because they only grow up once etcetera, etcetera. Because, yeah, I, like other people,

tell you that. But we also live in the world, especially if you're in business, in tech and start ups, right? The mentality around that is Thea opposites like No, no, no. Go and spend 20 hours at work, you know, sleep under your desk, like 20 years later. Eventually, your equity will be worth something and you're gonna be rich. And it's just like 20 years later you might be dead. That's not really useful.

So I think I think you're saying this is like knowing how busy and how kind of stressed and engaging your business you have been over the last couple of decades. It's great to see that with the kid. You're also realizing that you know what? Like there's time for everything. And now there's time to be with your family. And it's great.

Yeah, And, you know, like, one last thing I guess I'll say, is that it's also okay to be away from the baby, right? Like it can be really hard, you know, like to do all these things. And, you know, parents are human beings, too, you know, like sometimes I think we look at our parents as we get older, we just say,

Well, that's mom or that's Dad. But Mom and Dad were young. Once They had passions and dreams. They were in love. They they had hobbies. They're people too, right? And

and then they have

you and we have to we have to be. We have to make sure we have time for ourselves so that we can be better for our kids. You know, like it's hard. But sometimes it's okay to just, like, have someone baby sit your baby for a day or two so that you can spend time on bettering yourself or your relationship with your significant other. Yeah, you're gonna miss the baby. And, you know, you might feel like it's wrong to do that, but I don't know, like, if it helps you have more quality time. And, you know, I think taking investing in yourself in your relationship is really important, too.

That's valid. That's something I should definitely. But both Jen and I should definitely do more off which we haven't been. It's been really hard to find a reliable babysitter or somebody would trust to spend time with the kids. Yeah,

I can't imagine how difficult that actually is. I mean, where That's another thing. We were really lucky. We're really lucky that Natalie's parents moved here and take care of from every day because, like, you know, it's it sucks to not be with him, but at least we know He's with family. And I know that, like very few people have that luxury.

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