ride that podcast. See host Carol Zaleski, sleep deprived, dead of two. Who's desperately trying to get in shape today? My guest in the show's of lab Magdelin, who is the co founder and CEO of a company called Web Flow, where Flo is a tool that allows anyone to create stunning looking upsides at a click of a button. Right dad show dot com, for example, was a website building webs, and it only took a couple of hours. Unlike all their competitors, Wetklo is simple when you need it to be an extremely powerful when you wanted to be. In fact, the team at the club is so confident in their own tools that they use Web flow to build. If you want to take a look of their tools,

Link isn't the podcast description. Flat started this company with his brother in one of his co workers somewhere around 2012 But the idea for this company was born more than a decade ago, so today Vlad and I will talk about what it's like to build a profitable company employing almost 100 people. They're profitable, they're successful, but they're also remote, and they don't work on weekends. Then I tried to reach some abstract $1,000,000,000 valuation. Would do other things so difficult for startups and silicon. If you want to start a confident but you have a family and you want to do the company on your terms, this is an episode for you. Without further ado flat, Welcome to the show. So just to start us, tell me quickly, what do you do?

S o. I started a company called Web Flow. I was a software engineer and I started it with another softer engineer. Bryant was my co founder and my brother's Sergi who was our designer. Um, so we all had sort of a engineering or design background. And now we have scaled company Thio almost 100 people. And we focus on making just giving designer superpowers, giving them the kind of powers that front and engineers have through a visual design tool the folks can use to create applications and websites and push them to production without having to learn how to code. So that's our entire mission, too, And powers after creation without this big barrier of going to a computer science school where boot camp or whatever, and

that's kind of what we're doing. Do people love? It's over.

Depends on who you ask. Ah, lot of people do love it, especially when they don't know how to code. So for them, it's very, very empowering. The people who don't love it as much are people who already know how to code. And, you know, I can only see limitations. Um, so you know, for us, that's not exactly an ideal type of customer, but But we do solve a lot of these cases where you know it makes sense for even those people toe to use use what flow? Um,

but overall, it's been generally really positive. Um, we have close to, I think, over 35,000 customers at this point. Um, and more and more companies, they're switching over to what flow. And there's gotta be something that's working for that to be the case. Or at least it's like the least bad option out there. Ah, but we like to think that there's something new because we're essentially introducing this new abstraction. Layer two have most of the functionality. That code provides a taste of the U I layer. For now, without a lot of the complexity,

right? So for our non technical listeners, basically, if you wanted to build a website back in the day, you would get yourself a developer designer and spend hours on end and tons of money to do something. Now you can go on Web PLO, pick a template, move things around connected to like your data and basically two hours you're running a fully functional website that before would have taken like $20,000 to build with people. Yes, I

think the only clarification that make to that is that there's so many products that can kind of fit that description like Squarespace Weeks And, we believe, etcetera, where you like, really pick a template and just move some stuff around. What flows a lot more. If if those products are kind of like you know, instagram or I movie, what flows more like photo shop or after effects? It's It's a deeper learning curve, but but it's way more powerful, you know you can. Professional photographers and professional V effects studios used those more pro level tools, but they also come with a bigger learning curve, so wet flow a lot of times people don't even start from a temple if they start with a blank white page and then build up exactly the kind of site that they want to see.

Um, been around then, like late nineties, you basically took Dream Beaver and put her on the Internet.

Exactly. That's our That's basically our sales pitch. And usually we don't say that because people have many negative connotations with dream Weaver Weaver was awesome. I know. Just just tell that to developers who have had to deal with true believers code,

you know, it's awesome. You guys launched this tool the other day. The new commerce platform in the It's wonderful right, because now people can do what they did on other platforms, but better and with more creativity and more options. In one of the comments I selling product on when you guys launch, it was like I love everything about it. Here's some great features here. Some suggestions what you can add. One problem. It costs more than those other guys. It is just such a face palm because you just launched something that's like light years better than the other software, but you still want it to cost less like what?

Yeah, I That's that's something that is just a reality of the market. Um ah, it's actually right now, we're We're equally priced with Shopify on the lowest here. But we also have a ton of these visual tools, which for Shopify you would have to learn howto right this liquid code and you actually have to sign up for, um, a plug in in the marketplace to have any sort of like visual building, which is an extra 20 bucks. So we're actually under that if you combine the features we would come out under. But it's just the reality of the market. Like, you know, even if we lower prices by 50% there's still gonna be people complaining that they're you know they're hosting is you know, they can get, like,

this dollar per year hosting on Go, Daddy. Um and it gives them everything that they want. You just can't You can't compete with that. Um, so for us, we've had to become more and more comfortable with just sticking by our pricing and making sure that it's fair for the value provided, Um, and if if it's, you know, higher than what you're willing to pay for it then then we don't provide enough value for for that to be worth it for you. Ah, and we don't beat ourselves up over then we're very comfortable with our pricing.

Well, it's great because you've got what, 100 people now, and, uh, working for him wrong with you guys were raised only 1.5

million way actually raised 2.9. It was all in the same round. It was one point for it first. And then we raised an additional 1.5 a few months later.

All right, unlike many start ups, you've survived on free mill to get to profitability, and now you have 100 people. That's

yeah, e. I think we've done, like more than 10 times as much revenue as we've ever raised in in funding, um, so that I think for us, funding is more of a you know, it's definitely not off the table for for the future, But but it's, um, pretty convenient to run the company off of customer revenue, because then we're accountable to our team and our customers. And there's not this sort of under pressure, too. Um, salt for other interests, shareholders would have you.

I mean, we still want to what provide a really awesome return for for the investors who did invest early, and we're definitely going to do that. But for us, it's, you know, it has to be, like, really compelling for us to ever raise money again.

And that's great, because I was just talking to Price from India, V. C. And you know their model is all about, you know, raise a little bit of money so you can get profitable. And then it's gonna be so much easier for you to raise VC money. Well, once you're actually making money on dumb. He's mentioned that a lot of companies now that raises these $1,000,000,000 valuations they're not raising because they need all this money. They just want to achieve this status, which is super silly because you're three million. Like right now, if I say you guys were to sell to somebody for I don't know, half a $1,000,000,000 or $1,000,000 right, that'd be the meat in return for everyone. Investors and I don't need to achieve any any number, but

it might be a great deal for they acquire Thio. Wink, wink.

Yeah. Yeah, Your current value, $1,000,000,000. Didn't get a great discount, right?

Did you hear about my VC fund that I started

You started?

We see fun. Yeah, it's called Unicorn VC, where I invest $25 per company at it. But I only take a 0.1% stake, which, which immediately makes your company worth $2 billion. Uh, which is how the math works out. Perfect. Uh, so, yeah, those evaluations really don't mean mean much. Ah, I do think there's a lot of value to using investment or using capital up front, too.

Make sure that you gain a foothold in the market and you actually move as fast as possible. So there's definitely advantages Thio being first in the market or last in the market and moving quickly to make sure that competitors don't don't outpace you. So there's it's there's it's a valuable source of capital, but it always has to be weighed with all the, um, all the trade offs. And a lot of times people get caught up in the sort of public metrics around announcing an A B. C D whatever playing alphabet soup with with these, um, kind of funding rounds, where what evaluation becomes much more important than the actual impact the company is having on the world? And and that's where things get like incentives get really misaligned sometimes where it sort of gets out of hand for certain companies and the they find themselves in a place where they don't have the kind of culture that they want. They don't have the kind of, um, you know, quality of life that they want to support for themselves or for their team. But at that point, the expectations are so high that you really have no no choice but to keep building in that kind of rocket ship type of way.

Hey there, the senator's just a quick note before we continue. I don't have a regular schedule to publish this episode, so if you want to know when the next episode is published, head over to rat dead show dot com and scroll down to big Black Box that says, Be the first to know and sign up with your email. I'll email you whenever the next episode of Red that she was published also I'm working on a two for podcasters and podcast listeners. So if you want to see what it looks like or be the first user, also sign up for the email and I'll update you in one of the next years later. Okay, cool back to the show theme. Now is a good time to find out what kind of a company Flat wants to build out of Web flow now that he can control his own destiny.

I mean, first and foremost, it's it's really about Ah, well, we have to side by side missions. There's not one that's like primary and one that secondary. They're actually on equal footing. One is really about our product vision, which is to empower everyone to create software without having to learn how to code. That's that's like a, you know, 30 year journey. It's not gonna happen overnight. Um, there's a lot we need to do to make that happen. S O. That really drives us like we want to do everything possible to make sure that that we come up with that outcome,

Which is why, you know, acquisitions are interesting because every every company that might want to acquire what what flow has now? Might wanna optimize that, like whether it's website building or CMS or, you know, e commerce or, you know, prototyping tools or whatever. Um, look, there's there's gonna be a drive towards maximum revenue extraction from those specific parts that work well now, uh, versus what we really want to achieve over the long term, which is to build a fundamentally different way of creating software which will democratize the practice. That many,

many more people, you know, 100 times, if not 1000 times more people. So we always want to drive for that. So we optimize for what kind of structure are we sort of. How are we running a company to make sure that that actually happens, Eh? So we don't burn out our team and, um, uh, you know, have, like, this revolving door that makes it much harder to keep focusing on a larger mission versus like just building a business on the second mission is to build a kind of company where each individual team member can live an impactful fulfilling life, whatever that means to them.

Ah, and that's a huge part of like treating people as Ah, fundamentally like first principle in achieving a much larger mission. Because if even if the mission is like, really important and purposeful and and grand and we have, like, this big gold to shoot for. But we're burning out folks. And, uh, people have, like, a really terrible experience in sort of, you know, a lot of time. You kind of hear this expression,

like selling out their souls for for, like, the mission of the company or trading everything to work day and night to make sure that the mission of the company is fulfilled. Like we don't want that We want to make sure that people see ah work at their work as a very important point part of their lives on and they have a lot of autonomy in the work that they do. Um, they can master the craft that there will they want to pursue if it's like one craft or multiple. But they also have, like, a clear sense of purpose for doing the kind of work that they're doing. Like are they actually having an impact on the world in the way that they want? And those two things have to like be achieved at the same time. So we can't sacrifice our team members well being and happiness and fulfillment at the cost of, um, we can't sacrifice that to make sure that our product mission is fulfilled. Nor can we just like, you know,

build like a super friendly, you know, great work, life balance, ping pong tables everywhere, type of culture where it's like super fun to be at work. And, you know, um, world friends come by etcetera. But I'm not working on something really important. It might be a much better outcome just for the world at large for those folks to go work on something more important and more impactful. S o. The kind of company that we want to build is one that balances those two missions like really drives towards creating this new type of software development. Um, and being really excited about that,

but also recognizing that Ah, lot of times there's this sort of expression that it's it's not, um, America. It's not a sprint. It's a marathon, right? But for us, even a marathon is pretty exhausting, right? Like you have to use to train for a marathon, people would pass out during a marathon. You have to like, decompress for many date like you run a marathon for a day and then you like toast for like, five days. You have to take these ice baths or whatever for us.

It's more like a brisk walk, like it has to be sustainable over many, many years. And you have to be enjoying that, uh, that that activity. So it's almost like, you know, going on a very brisk walk with, like constantly with a friend and talking about, like, fun topics or whatever, but also getting exercise and sort of pushing yourself a little bit through through that processing. Getting there faster, but not as fast is like running your running your entire body into the ground. Um,

so it's all about long term sustainability, which is why you know, the vast majority of of our team is, uh, tends to run on the older side. Like a lot of people have families. There's, ah, bigger focus on, um, sustainability and, uh, focus on deep work and doing the most important things rather than just like doing work for the sake of work and putting in the hours. Of course, it's still important to work hard and to work on the right things. But that doesn't mean that you're working like nights and weekends and sacrificing family time and other interests that bringing fulfillment,

whether it's that worker outside of work, to make sure that you your life doesn't feel like a rep Rhett race in pursuit of somebody else's mission. Um so So for us, it's really, really important Thio to make sure that people feel well supported and, um, are not burning out or over working when it comes to fulfilling our product mission. And I think that's reflected in how, um, in generally how people feel here we've had in the last couple of years in the last two and 1/2 years, in fact, with nobody has left the company, um, and I think that's a reflection of people being valued as much as, if not more so, the company vision.

Because when when people treated really great than like surprise, surprise, they do really amazing work on. We all really enjoy it. And, um, it, uh, it just leads to a better feeling all around, but he just it just feels more sustainable. You feel like you can balance an integrated better with other aspects of your life. Um, and it doesn't become this all consuming thing that your entire so forth is like tied into Look, if your work doesn't go well, then you feel bad as a person and et cetera.

Do you get in trouble for having this super positive outlook on life and work while being in San Francisco? To be honest, it's becoming more of, ah, more

of a normal thing. Thio talk about before it was something that we had to kind of hide, even even at y c. Even with investors like a lot of people told me, Don't mention that you have kids on your investor pitches, et cetera. Um, but over the years, maybe I've just become more confident about it. Maybe other. Many other companies have started taking this approach looks happier and automatic and envisioned etcetera. That has just become more, more of a comfortable thing to talk about with confidence. Um, so it doesn't feel it doesn't feel like I have like, this is something that's out on the fringes anymore. I used to be a lot more friends before,

is it? And Well, you mentioned kids. How was it? Yeah, because when you started to see you started, the company already had a kid.

We're too. Yeah, I started when my kids were one in three, so they were pretty young. One was already ahh potty trained. And another one was just now starting Thio just starting to walk.

And that was just a CZ you got into I c and kind of took on funding or even before that

was before. So we got into Y C about a year later. So the kind of the teal the are of the story is I decided thio, um maybe the teal the art of the deal, they are like, once once, I totally decided to work on on Web flow like full time and quit my, uh, quit my company. I still didn't have I didn't know who my co founders were gonna be. It was still kind of a solo effort and we had moved. My wife and I were their kids from Sacramento Thio Mountain View, which is and I kept my day job at into it too. Just shifted my hours to, like, really early hours. I would work from 6 to 2.

And then at two, I would take off and go to a coffee shop and work till seven on wet floor. Um, but at that time, I'd already known that I'm going thio look, saving up for a little while to make sure that we had at least three months of savings to just work on a full time when I found my first co founder, which conveniently was my my brother. Sir Ji, um, this was September 2012 and we decided to go full time like I would quit my job full time. Um, he would leave his job and move, moved to Mountain View and just moved into like this. Not even the spare room. We have, like,

this office in our condo three bedroom condo. So one was like the master bedroom, and then their kid's room, and then this office were surgery, moved in. So after that moment that September 2012 we started working on it full time, and, uh, one of my kids was already going to preschool. Um, and we thought that we were gonna have you know, of course, like, three months. We thought that three months of runway was just like this amazing thing. I think we had,

like, 20 k in the bank. All told that put into the company, which is all of my savings. Um, and we thought that it was gonna be, like, a quick thing. We're gonna make a Kickstarter video going to raise like, 500 k. Of course, it's like every kick starter raises it. Reese 5 500 k. So we had all these sort of dreams around what the outcome is gonna be, But those three months came, came and went really quickly.

Um, and we found out midway after putting in, like, $10,000 into this Kickstarter video that kick started isn't support SAS Products s. So that was a pretty rude awakening. Um, and like, half of our start up capital just went into that failed endeavor. But it wasn't until the next June that we were in Y c um, so the like that September through June was all sort of working on what floor? Full time with no income. Um, and you know, kids in school or at least one kid in school, and then take care and all that stuff So that was definitely a, um had we not had kids,

it would have been a lot easier, but absolutely. I don't think I have any regrets from doing it. Um, going through that journey with kids because it it almost added this constraint to this natural constraint of like, Hey, you have a lot more going on than just this company. And from the beginning, even though we did work like significantly longer hours and in the beginning phase when we had no no revenue and, um, no investment, we just had to work, like, all day, every day. Pretty much,

um, only had Sundays off, um, but that already, like we knew between my wife and I, we had an agreement that that was just a short season. What we had to go through that in order to get funding. But once we got funding, we very quickly switched into kind of a more normal, um, operating environment where weekends were sort of off limits for, um, for normal day to day stuff or even product launches. Like we just just focused on doing all the work we could do for Monday for Friday. And that was just like the constraint. That was naturally,

Um, I don't know if imposes the right word, but like the constraint that was naturally there to make sure that I was also there for my family, not just the business. And that set the pace for as new people joined. You know, uh, as I was modeling that new people saw that it was okay to actually go to dinner and not be pressured to eat dinner at the office, um, and spend weekends not worrying about checking slack, et cetera.

Well, kudos to you wave to for spending the time and really taking care of kids by the sound of it.

Oh, absolutely. I think had, um, my wife not been like, fully bought into the kind of this this whole dream. Then it would have been a lot a lot harder because it was hard, even with Brian. Um, but had that by and not been there, Um, I think it would have been a lot a lot tougher. I know. A lot of you know, after I sort of started talking about the stuff publicly. Ah, lot of founders shared with me both publicly and privately in D instead their marriages fell apart because of a starter project and how much time they put into it. And it definitely takes a toll. Um,

did you even see your kids for the first year?

I saw them only in the morning. So we would we would sort of wake up because kids generally wake up very early at that age, so I would see them up until around 7 30 Then we would, um, take off and go to our core working space on. And then I get back in 10. So it was like I would see them only in the morning for a little bit and then all day, Sunday. So Sunday was, like, always least for that first year was a family day. Um, and that that is something that I think is easy for founders to turn that one that first year into the rest of your years, right? And I've talked to a lot of founder, especially like founders would turn into V C's and now, you know,

sort of reflecting back another. Their kids are grown. They realize that it's so easy to fall into this default of making sure, like kids and family are as much as you want them to be. Always feel like second priority because, like fires always happen. Urgent stuff always comes up with the company. There's always travel needed. There's always etcetera, etcetera, so it's very easy to fall into that trap. Um, but I think for me, it was like, really critical that, um my wife was very open around,

kind of the limitations of how far I can push time away from family and that it was kept at, um, specific milestones. Look, I know it was not something that look. We explicitly talked about how long that that, like initial grind, would could last before it becomes too hard,

right? And for everyone listening, I think it's important to kind of accentuate the major theme here and from you saying it from from the other interviews with the other kind of start up dead. But basically two things right, like you have to make a conscious decision that you're going to do this, and that's what it's going to look like. And you have to get your, uh, significant others buy in, and then you also have to remember to snap out of it as soon as you can.

It is not sustainable that that part is definitely like a marathon like you are running every day. Um, but there's only so far it can. It can last before your body just needs your body and your mind just needs to get into a more sustainable jog mode.

Sort of related. But let's let's talk about your product launch because I don't remember the exact day you guys launched. But I think it was Gary Tan who was tweeting it all over the Internet, saying how he was amazed by this new cool product. But when you guys launched, it wasn't like a typical you know, product would be embarrassed by on your performance. It was actually like fully fledged software that worked really well, looked awesome. You couldn't even tell. That was just like three guys behind it. I thought it was like a legitimate company that came out with this like Super New don't like adobe competitors you should have.

You should have seen behind the scenes what? That's what that felt like s o the actual story. I don't know if I've told us before, but we were very convinced So Sergi Bryant and I were very convinced that the thing that people would be willing to pay for is that designed tool plus CMS because that's the thing. Like everybody needs a blogger. Everybody needs, like, this content management system. And we were very uncomfortable with launching without that. Um, and why See, ah, couple partners, That was he, thankfully told us. Um hey, this is like you have you have two weeks to launch.

Otherwise we're gonna kick you out of the program like that. I'm sure they were joking, but it sounded were very serious. Like, this is if if you don't launch in two weeks, then you're not taking this program seriously and I think that for us was just If that decision wasn't forced on us, we would probably not be sitting here today like we'd probably probably back it into it right now because we didn't actually launch what we thought we would be proud of until a year and 1/2 later when we're already doing, like, $2 million in annual revenue. Um, because they're CMS launched in late 2015 and we launched the original sort of like, single page website builder in August of 2020 13 2 years earlier, more than two years earlier. So we were very embarrassed by what we what we launch. It was super buggy. Like you couldn't create a second page.

We've got so many so many kind of comments during launch of like, you know, this is a super limited thing like every website has, you know, in about Paige and a contact page. And all you're saying is you know, this is kind of a glorified one pager. Um, what kind of website builder? What's the market for this and why you're charging $29 per month for for this for this product. This was before we had, you know, CMS animations, like all the components that we added Thio sort of the building blocks for weapons. So it was very, very felt very uncomfortable.

It felt like we were just ah, launching this bare minimum thing. Um, and all the founders were It was just three of us. We were all doing support. Um, and pretty much like, 80% of our days were filled with answering support questions and like fixing bugs because it was so buggy on because we spent so little time. Like going from just a demo to an actual like working product that can, like, you know, charge customers and host websites, et cetera. So I think the outward maybe the teal the are there is like the outward impression is definitely different from what you feel behind the scenes. But the other Thea other piece of advice that you know, I now give other founders very regularly is is that,

um you you have to you have look, the sooner you launch, even if you think that there's not enough value there, you just have have to validate that with the market. And for us. It was definitely one of those situations where we thought that not many people would be willing to pay for what we had at that time. Um, but some people were, and that gave us, you know, even though it wasn't a lot, and it was it wasn't enough to make a sustainable, it was enough to keep us encouraged to not, like pivot away to a simple product or, um, to a different kind of customer segment or whatever.

It is just enough to keep us motivated to keep working on the ultimate vision. And, um, I think had we not done that, we just wouldn't wouldn't have gotten We probably would have run out, run out of the seed money that we raised, and we wouldn't be able to raise a second second round just because we didn't have any growth to show for it. So I don't know, like, for us, that was a very uncomfortable event. But I'm so glad we were forced into doing that by Y. C.

So for all the founders and developers listening, you know, how do you decide that the initial response is good enough that you'll keep going? And also, how do you separate that critical feedback that you're getting from the actual product? You know, in order to sort of keep building what you're paying customers want while keeping in line? I

honestly don't know how to answer that, like, you know, generically. For us, it was a combination of probably 80% of, um they kind of boundless optimism bordering on delusion. That was just like this foundational belief that what we're building was a better way. Even if we don't get, um, you know, kind of respond very clear response from the market, for it's almost like the anti lean startup methodology where you're going more with your gut field and actual data because there were many, many months where during our first after a launch, So for, like, six months after our lunch,

um, our growth wasn't like picking up fast enough to where we were just the three of us would pace around the building on We were renting space from this other white C company in Mountain View was just like pace around the building and always be questioning whether we need to pivot to something that is a lot closer to score space. Because the feedback we were getting over and over is that we're close way too hard to use. Like I I go there and it's like this blank page and I see all these tools. It's homes, like seeing after effects. For the first time, you have to go through like a lot of training. Ah, lot of even have to understand the CSS box model. You have to understand like HTML. To a degree, you must have to be a developer in order for for the initial the first kind of level of design tooling to make sense. Um, so we really didn't have that, like,

you know, clear, clear idea of whether it makes sense to keep going aside from revenue like slowly but surely starting to increase. And this, just like overwhelming belief that what we're building is just fundamentally better. And I think a lot of that came from the fact that Sergi and I had spent the previous eight years or so building websites for other clients. So we knew what the alternatives were. He would do the design and photo shop. I would always translated to, like, WordPress or like a static Web site, or like a speed that net or Julia, Um, like a couple of jubal sites or whatever. So I knew how painful that whole process was. Um,

and I think there was, like, this overwhelming belief that there just has to be a better way, and we have to We have enough enough money and enough runway to like stick with it. But it would definitely wasn't this, you know, clear sign that we're doing the right thing. Um, I think that only came when we had, you know, modeled out that. Hey, at this growth rate, we can actually get to a point where our burn will bought him out and we'll start making money. But that didn't happen for, like, another two years after lunch. Two or two and 1/2 or something like that.

So that first week of launch, you get some paying customers. Are we talking like, you know, 20 customers paying $20 or 2000 customers?

Oh, no. It was like so we had, um and this was really depressing. We had a ah, list. Like an email. You know, you capture e mails for people who are you have one of these? Landing patient says if you want to check it out like it was your email. We had close to 40,000 people on that mailing list. So we thought, of course, like, 10 at least 10% of these people are gonna convert to paying customers et cetera, after we had launched and it was like the whole Y c Demo Day and TechCrunch and, um,

it was like a fool, as as launched heavy as you could get, I think after 22 weeks after lunch, our monthly recurring revenue was $3000 or $4000. Something like that. Um, we're going into our demo date pitch because this was after lunch. We were using the term like Rahman profitable. And, um, which is definitely not the case, you know, even $4000. Ah ah. A month didn't even support my family, let alone like Brian and surges families.

But it was enough to kind of start telling the story that revenues kind of starting to increase. But we have to play more to the, you know, number of active users or retention on the site, which is also not super great, because it was like a such a complex tool. Um, so out of those 40,000 beta sign ups, I think maybe 150 became like customers right away or within those works a couple weeks. And then it was like a steady rise from there. But it wasn't, like, overwhelming, like Boom, here's 2000 customers and you're off to the races. I think that would have given us a lot more confidence than than what we got a front

right. But that's great to share it, because how many people launch and think while they product sucks. Being one came.

Yeah, it's a lot of times you look, you'll see yesterday what flows on product cunt, and we've been number one on product many times. And if you if you actually gauge the success of that launch based on how many like paying accounts, you have holy moly like sometimes he's like a paying count. Might hear about you on a product hunt like listening, but then not sign up for another two weeks and then not upgrade for another, like three months or something like that. So it's ah, and a lot of times what you might see, Um, what you might assume from, you know, a number of up boats or whatever. It doesn't actually necessarily correlate Thio. A direct business impact,

of course, like more visibility is great, but it's always, I don't know unless you're very, very lucky or like some sort of outlier. It's always a very long slob to get to like a sustainable level of customers, and then you have to start worrying about turn and so many other factors that even when people sign up and they're paying you, you have to worry about. Are you providing enough value, like is there? Is it so expensive or not useful enough that people are, like, constantly canceling their accounts, etcetera, etcetera. Um, so, yeah, it's definitely not an overnight success kind of thing.

Do you ever stop worrying? Um,

I mean, I think my level of worry right now is is ah, very healthy, sustainable, Like, I don't lose sleep over anything. Really like it's, um But there's a lot to a lot of things to optimize in the business, a lot of problems to solve. But I give myself permission to spend time thinking about them to understand that these these are problems that many, if not if not most in all companies face at scale or even before scale. Um, so I don't beat myself up over, you know, problems that might exist. Just, um,

try to figure out which ones are the most important in which ones need dedicated time. Ah, to tackle versus feeling. This sort of. I've talked to a lot of founders where you know there's this constant comparison and measuring to other people's milestones, and you know how much other other founders raise, or how much revenue other companies were doing her faster growing or like what the community looks like. And you will always, always, always find, um, areas where somebody is doing better than you on some, like objective metrics. And there will always be areas where you're doing better on some objective metric. But it's so easy to see the areas we fall short sort of going to that. You know,

the idea that you get 100 compliments and one constructive criticism, but like 100% of your brain cycles go to thinking about that criticism. Right? Um, so for me, like the last two years, I've been sort of a reprogramming of that, giving myself permission to, like, focus on the positives, recognize the areas of opportunities and growth that we can focus on, um, and systematically, um, work on them while not having this kind of overwhelming anxiety that I'm doing the wrong thing or not moving fast enough or should be doing, you know,

five other things that I'm not thinking about or whatever. So I would say my level of worry is more, um, around missed opportunity, trust or considering how, whether the thing I'm working on right now is the most important one or something else will have deeper impact. But it's not like, you know, a constant existential threat around like, well, wet flow exist. Or am I doing, um, completely the wrong things? Or is the company gonna go out of business or anything like that is long past? Yeah,

it's a great place to be now. Yeah, have there have there ever? Because if people always, you know, ask about co founder relationships. And in some ways, they're like your relationship with your significant other? Uh, well, one of you confound this is your brother, and it's even more complicated incense. Has there ever been time where you guys were on the verge of, like blowing up, Whether with your ah pose or with your cofounders? Um,

I'd say, luckily, no, I super lucky. And that the co founders that, um, ended up forming this founding team. We had so much working experience together, like surgeon and I, um, worked on so many projects, you know, website projects. And, you know, even though he is my younger brother, it was,

uh, pretty early on, we developed ah, very professional relationship. Um, where there wasn't like power dynamic there just because I'm older or whatever. And Bryant and I worked it into it for a couple of years. Where we had into it had, like this 10% idea, 10% projects where you can work on whatever. And we ended up creating, like, this internal social network for ideas, and they let us work on it full time, almost because as an internal startup and Bryant and I were the main two engineers on that look, I was running the front and he was running the back end.

So we had a lot of experience, like, you know, having harder conversations or learning how to collaborate together. So when the three of us joined forces, it was like the perfect combination of skills. Because Bryant tends to focus more on growth and marketing and the back and architecture I focused more on like operations and, um, people function and front and engineering, sort of kind of going into design. And then surgery focuses a lot on product and product design and, um, product education, things like that. So for us, it's it's been a really healthy Ah,

of course, have been tense moments where you know we're frustrated by certain parts of the business or whatever, but it's always been a, um, what we like to call. There's like this popular book, so we sort of stole the term ferment like radical candor where you know, out of care, we share our concerns with each other. Um, and there's, um there's a lot of, like mutual growth as we talked through problems. Um, and we all like like all three of us work with different coaches, which is a function of each of us being candid with each other around our shortcomings and like things that we can work on.

But it's never come to the to the point where there have been any blow ups or like severe disagreements. Um, we always tend to get on the same page. Sometimes it's hard to do like date, a day when you're like, in slack or working on like you know, a lot of urgent problems, things that are on fire but always like getting into, you know, getting out of the office, going on an offsite, going to like some be child's or something in Pacifica and just like, you know, sort of resetting, celebrating things and thinking about the future. Look,

we we have always consistently gotten on the same page, and, um, I would say Bryant became more of a brother to me, and surgery became more of a co worker. So they both sort of like melted in that direction of like, you know, we both have a very close ally. Three of us have a very close bond on, like a personal and professional level, which I feel is like the best of both worlds. It's it's kind of, um, in the fact that the skills are so complementary and not like really, stepping on each other's toes is also really great. Um,

I think that would have been a different story if it was just surging. I, um, without Ryan's perspective, so they're like that. It's almost like a three legged stool, um, where each of us, like focuses on areas were really strong. And then that happens to work really well for the company,

making it sound so perfect.

It doesn't feel it doesn't feel that way all the time, but it's ah, it's definitely I think maybe because it sounds like that because, like intentionally over the years. We've had a lot of hard conversations, but but at the right points where you know you don't quite blow up, you know, you're like your candid about your feelings and your perception, Um, and you share those with team members and founders before it really gets to the point where it's like eating, eating away your quarter, which which I've seen, like, destroy other founder relationships before

and ironically, well, maybe not. But it's ah, it's the same mentality that I think applies to parenting. And marriage is all right. It seems like for people who do the best that it, it's it's those people who share with each other and keep working on it and like, Yeah,

and you know, I'll be I'll be honest. There's a lot of privilege baked into um like, for example, my marriage being successful or weapon being successful. Because if what flowed didn't find product market fit and we weren't if we didn't like launched in the market at the time that we launched and we had a lot of luck then because like no other company, everyone like every investor, every other company was talk about mobile at the time like focusing on the Web was just dumb. It was like something that you did. If you, uh you know, we're not with the times, um, and the fact that we had, like, two or three years of runway where nobody was really looking at the space to sort of like build out the solution. If we weren't,

like, comfortable in our business and revenue, it would have been much harder to have, like, the kind of relationship that we have cause you know, the old adage of like, growth solves a bunch of problems when things were going well, it's a lot easier to have strong relationships, just like if if in a marriage, for example, you have a ton of financial arguments all the time because money's tight on. That was definitely something that was top of mind for us because you know, when after after a quick job and didn't have any income like we have to go into a ton of debt and cash out before on. Kay was like all these crazy penalties, and I was like getting to the point where that was becoming a major point of stress. But had that gun longer.

I can see that, um, that being a major, major stress point on both marriage and a company. So I don't blame other founders. When when I hear, like how how many? Look how arguments result from, like, the business, not finding traction, um, or or look sort of things not going great on the customer front or on the turn front. Um, so in a lot of those areas we've, we've had Of course,

we did a lot of work to make sure that the product works with, Well, we attack turn from a very early stage So there's a lot of some work that went into that. But it was also easier for for us to form these kinds of relationships and and be able to say for the same reason that you know, like D H Agen Base camp. Like a lot of the reasons that they can provide that level of lifestyle and comfort and be able to, like, focus more on people's because the business is making money right. It's like they're not. They're not having to make decisions that are much harder where they look trying to survive. Um, so so for us it's I just wanna acknowledge that it's not It's not 100% us, it's ah, lot came from the fact that we were operating in an environment that was more default alive than default dead after a certain point, which gives you a lot more options and a lot more of a clear head. Thio think about problems with a longer time horizon, Um, and not, like have these sort of high friction points because the company is dying,

by the way. For anyone who doesn't know default alive means to company is going to survive, like on its revenue. Or, you know, being profitable is supposed to like just falling off the cliff slowly. Yeah, um, so, you know, just a couple of questions, But knowing everything you know now about sort of business relationships, family, Um, how do you prepare yourself to get on this journey? For anyone who wants to do a company of their own from your experience, never mind. You know, the $1,000,000,000 vehicle using etcetera, just like from exactly yours. Mmm.

Well, I think my experience is somewhat unique in that, um, in that I had this idea of pretty early. Uh, and there was something there was a lot like, tied up in timing. And there's this particular video that I saw called Inventing on Principle by Brett Victor that, like, 100% aligned with what? My vision for wet floors to what he was showing in the video, which sort of gave me this, you know, overwhelming feeling that, you know, what I wanted to build was the correct thing and that it needed to exist in the world. Um,

so I can only share from my perspective of having that, um, having that kind of drive towards, like, this kind of solution or this new, whether you want to call it invention, new way of doing things. Um, like that it was very important for me, but I also don't want to pretend like the other thing today. There was a thread that D h h posted around like he's not, doesn't wake up every morning and thinks about events and reminders and projects, right? That's not like a driving factor for him. Um, he's more.

He's more oriented around, like, how do you provide a better experience for, um, for the people that work at the company? etcetera. So for many founders, like, it could be a fully a pursuit of just, you know, building a business that can sustain yourself in your family and like a team etcetera. Um, of course, it's super helpful when you have, like, a ah,

higher purpose where you can see that you're just like every day you get up in the morning and you're like this needs to exist and you just just will it into existence. That gives you a huge advantage thio, um, to making that thing happens. So if you can find an idea that's like that that just like in your in the core of your being you like, I need to make this a reality almost like the Steve Jobs, you know, make a dent in the universe, uh, kind of mentality that's always a great president to start from. But I don't want to also say that that's required, like it should be, um, equally possible. Thio, um,

you know, started started business that you're not particularly excited about the future vision of what you see like a strong business case, or you can see how like the financial model could work and General revenue or whatever. Um, it just becomes a lot easier when when you're driving towards like that bigger purpose. Um, so I guess that all that to say is if you have, like, a recurring itch to solve a specific problem, and Paul Graham says, It's a lot like that's usually a great sign that that you will you will learn how to do all the things necessary operationally along the way, you know, learn how to be Ah ah, good founder of its CEO. A good operator, a good manager.

Ah, good. Like trainer of executives, etcetera. Like all that will come along just like when you're a parent, right? Like you don't you don't set out and read, even though a lot of people intend to All these books about parenting and how to do parenting, right? And all these techniques or whatever what actually happens is that you really, really driven to, um, be apparent for whatever reason. Like part of that is evolutionary, and part of it is, you know,

kind of what we see in society and how much fulfillment satisfaction other people get from their Children. Um, and then you just know once you have kids. How much of a fulfilling and driving factor it is? Um, you sort of learn how to be, Ah, good enough parent along the way and just keep them alive and provide for them and make sure they have a great experience or whatever. This'll is a starting to feel like a super rambling answer, but I guess the teal the are there is Ah, if you do have that that drive to invent something or ah, specific idea that you want to get in the middle of something like a cheat code that's going to let you get over a lot of like the's roller coaster bumps when when you want to get discouraged or when something's not working the visits or whatever. That level of optimism that you just want to get that thing out into the world is going to, um, be a significant factor in making sure that that you take the steps necessary to get there. But if that's missing,

I from my experience, I don't know, um, like how to best advise like when to get started, why? To get started, whether it's worth being ah, founder versus, um you know, working for a different company of different start up for all I know, like the financial factors might be well in your favor to go work on another company if you don't have, um, uh, kind of an incentive to create something new. The only thing I know is that a lot of people who who started startups just for the sake of, like,

playing startup, you know, they wanted to be a founder. They wanted to have the title. They wanted to raise funding that wanted to be on TechCrunch. That is, ultimately, I haven't seen that be a fulfilling dry for folks like that ultimately and ends up being pretty empty because each of those milestones comes with even more pressure. Even more. Um, kind of, Yeah, even more expectations. And it doesn't lead to fulfillment in my experience. Um, so it's definitely highly,

highly preferable that if you're starting something new, if it's important and impactful, it's going to take many, many years to get there. Then you need that, um, kind of higher level inspiration to bring that into, you know, a product or service or whatever into reality. You it's gonna help in so many ways along, um, along your journey,

right? And it's not to say that you can't just start a company to make money there. Plant Example. Most small businesses

do. I think, like most small but like people don't wake up in the morning like, Oh, I wanna wanna dry clean people's clothes or I want to, like, run a sandwich shop like No, they're doing it to provide for their families. They're not, like, you know, have a vision for sandwich artistry. Um, it's a It's a way to, ah, create revenue to provide for your family and Thio ensure the success of year sort of individual stakeholders, if you will. So it's a perfectly reasonable, um, kind of reason to start a company. Uh

oh, but I mean, even even and especially in Silicon Valley, there are founders who just want to g o raise money and build a company. Doesn't matter what the company is or you know what division is. They just want to build it in 3 to 5 years. I

think that's gonna think they're gonna have a bad time. In my opinion,

well, and that's the wonderful thing because you're building a very special kind of company that works around your vision and your employees vision and your but, um, and what I'm trying to get is that I think it's also important, I guess, for founders to figure out who they are and what they want. And you're just a great example that you can build a company that works for you and everyone around you. And it works in the way that is best for you and your customers and nobody else, right?

Yeah. No, it's definitely possible.

By the way, I haven't asked a lot of kids questions because I think we kind of covered a little bit about how you building this company and how your family and, you know, ah cofounder scheme together. So there's a love there, it implicitly about how your family almost grew up with this company. But if you if you wantto talk about that'll, warm, happy too, um, let me know how much

it's. One thing my wife always says is, um, you know, we always had we had two kids, but really, in reality, it felt to her like we had three website being the 3rd 1 just just how much it has been integrated in in our family. Like how? Um a How much time it took early on, but also how much meaning it has to me personally, right? Like it's it's not just a job that I go to, Um, I constantly share stories just yesterday, you know, showing all the feedback to to my kids and my wife from the product hunt launch like That's look,

they actually took my daughter to the emergency room to the urgent care last night, and we're like sitting there at 99 PM and we were watching on a launch video together and like you could see that she was proud of me. Um, and it's something that she she asked for, as I was like, sort of scrolling through the product Mentalist. Change the photo. That looks interesting. Um, and it's just been like part of our family, but not to the degree where it is the single overriding, like, most important thing. Um,

she got so excited about the launch that she had to go to emergency room. Ah, so, like your kids now fairly involved in the day to day, what floor did they come to? The office? I've seen some pictures.

Yeah, they They come to the office sometimes, but they're they're definitely not involved. I think their main level of involvement is winning the web for T shirts to school. Um, so there they were in wet flow. Everything they're like, I think they're I think some parents are worried about how how branded there. Ah, uh, so they're I mean, they're a lot of times they're more annoyed at like, Okay, just another web sleuthing.

Give him a T shirt with the sign of exactly

that could become affiliates. Um, no, but it's not just like a a standard, a standard thing actually found out the other day. Uh, my older daughter, she's 10. Now. She's, like, dead. Um, my friend, I forget her name like she Googled you. And she said, She said,

There's like, too many pictures of you online. Um, so now it's having to deal with this. Like how? How to make sure that my kids, you know, don't don't just see me as a dad, um, and don't see some sort of like new persona that is somehow separated from from our family life, But that was like something brand new that I wasn't expecting, but day to day they're way more interested in, like, playing video games or going rollerblading, which apparently, is still a thing.

Um, then they are in, you know, visiting what flow or doing what floor related things we're doing. Going like company events. Uh,

I have to ask you this question giving that you're building at visual development tool that is not meant to have people actually development. Um, what's your view on this whole? Let's teach every kid to code

movement. So I actually see everything that went flu is doing as still under the development umbrella. It just happened. It's a different type of development. We call it visual development. It's almost like, um, you know, people used to not consider assembly development because it wasn't as powerful as writing machine code by hand. Um, then, you know, assembly programmers were let o. C. Is not really development because, you know, there are a lot of like very precise memory management things in in control flow things you can't do and see because the language doesn't provide for the obstruction is not ah,

100% to that the power of assembly. Then you know secret spots in Java and JavaScript and so on. Progressively more and more. Um, as the level of abstraction rises, there's always these sort of like checkpoints where some people think that this new abstraction isn't quite as powerful as the one before. Um, and we see what floor is almost like. Now, if you rewind like 50 years ago, when the first spreadsheet, maybe it wasn't even 50 years ago when the first spreadsheet came about a lot of the things that spreadsheets allowed you to do. We're accomplishing Coble in Moscow on See where you would literally have to write this application. But now you can actually express that same problem. Whether it's like a finance US ops problem or like a business modeling problem, you can actually express it in in a spreadsheet,

right and have computers do calculations for you. It's essentially a different type of development in a different way to give computer's instructions and have them, like do computations for you and a lot of developers, especially those that were sort of like felt threatened because they were writing those sort of, um, world kind of financial calculations and Pascal or whatever they felt that that's a new model wasn't really development, right? But now, if you look at you know it's Ellen. Spreadsheets like entire business model's entire businesses sometimes even run on excels. The database. Um, so we see visual development, the thing that Web flow empowers as being, like a similar a similar type of democratization of an existing technology in an existing practice. Um,

you just have to redefine it differently. Like if development is defined, as I'm going to declare how software behaves and how it's experienced by people, and I'm able Thio, deploy it to where other people can actually use the value of that software. If you can categorize that as development and come up with a different approach to making that same value happen, then it's still development. You're developing software. It's just not programming anymore. It's not like text based programming in a code editor, But if the output is exactly the same, then it's it's really irrelevant for the same in the same way that there used to be developers quote unquote in the graphic design and digital publishing industry, where, you know designers would actually do stuff on paper. It's called Paste up. They were actually glue a layout,

magazine layout or a newspaper lay on paper. Then that would go to a typesetter or a postscript. Expert toe actually write the code to translate that to what the printer understands. And that was a technical development programming task to translate one to the other. But then, when that was automated away via like, that's how publishing software like work, experience and in design. But these days it's essentially like, um, the same exact thing is happening. It's just happening behind the scenes, like people would just press export to PdF, and that same or similar code is generated right. It's the output is exactly the same. So when when we talk about visual development,

it's like as long as you can push the software production you are developing, you're developing a product we've now had, like tens of products, go on product matches websites like actual products where you know they provide value there, like subsets of software. Now we're like simpler type of software, but it's it's replacing what developers would have to do by hand. Um, as long as the end result is the same, it's still in my opinion development. It's just, like now available Thio a wider range of people.

First of all, you just dropped so many names that I never realized you were 100 years Quell Express. Yeah, but you're absolutely right. I mean, I've been using web flow for maybe a year or two now, and it's wonderful for all the things that used to take. Days can now take hours. Is it? The end of the day is a developer. You can you can and should definitely build software. But this that's where you build should be the core to experience you provide. And very often a lot of those things are in court, right? Like you and I've seen this, I think where people build abs, Um,

I know how to separate this forgets nontechnical users. But where the Web flow, the website sits in the Web floor. You know, the data comes from somewhere you know the users can interact with, but it's only the part that's like, really challenging and technical and complicated. That becomes an app that's built somewhere else so you can actually get your developers race for every start about there. You can get your developers to focus on the core. The coroner that takes 80% of the effort, but not the visual side of it. That takes 80% of the time.

And over time, we're actually, like if you look at if you ever go through wet flow and start a new project, uh, we have something called a template marketplace, which used to be an angular app that was maintained by three, uh, engineers on our team. Um, it has, you know, all the templates that gets submitted by our template designers in the marketplace. It has, like, tags and profiles. You can go to each individual designer and see everything that there, all the other templates that they have.

You congee go by like categories and see reviews. 100% of it now runs and wept flow in production. And it's maintained by, like, 5% time of one of our product designers. It's an actual line of business application. Uh, that is, you know, getting a 1,000,000 requests a month, and, uh, essentially three developers are now working on something even more complicated on her stack. But they're not having to worry about maintaining this application and this application is now gone through, You know, like five different design iterations on all that combined was still,

like a fraction of the time that the development team would would have spent on it s o. And over time, as we add more functionality toe weapon like we're going to add user systems, we're going to add, like, multi language. We're going to add back and logic, like this'll get closer and closer to being able to build, like more and more types of software, not just like front facing websites.

This is so mad it because what you just said is that web flow runs on whip

flew. Yeah, parts of wet floor run on what floor? For sure. Like most of our design, most of our e commerce Ah, you I was developed inside a weapon. It's actually kind of freaky because you get used, you don't know where, like the weapon you I ends and where the canvas begins. Uh, sort of product designers had a pretty tough time, uh, trying to like buildup along with, But it's still nowhere near like the actual case where the vast majority of weapons building what full it still like the vast majority is still built directly in text based code.

So what's what's Web flow 15 years from now? That's always

so hard to answer. I mean, flying cars, for sure, definitely are spinning up that business unit. What else is everyone doing? Crypto

krypton. So yesterday heavy. See the latest value of crypt Alexia. Interesting.

Um, I mean, definitely kind of moving up this ladder. Abstraction of of adding more and more capability to not just websites, but Maur of applications. That's generally a our direction in 15 years from now. Wow, that's like double the time we've already spent. Um, so I hope it's we're somewhere in the in the realm or a significant portion off software that's being built is now built in what flow like over 10%. At that point, um, that that would be a really awesome goal to hit.

Actually, you know, it's last question, but like we just mentioned crypto and for a while it was booming, and everybody was getting rich and buying yachts in San Francisco. Um, how do you as a founder or is it has a human living in special in San Francisco. Keep your sanity and just keep working on a company that's really valuable. But, you know, you're also seeing all these other crazy things happening around. Yeah,

maybe it's my temperament, but, like for me, um, disassociating my personal worth or the worth of Web flow from like other people's accomplishments, um, has been pretty huge for me. Like where Now I feel happy for all this. So it's great that you're making killing off crypto two years ago, but it's great that you just got a $1,000,000,000 valuation. Um, like none of that upsets me or I'm just happy for all these teams. Um, and I don't know if that, like first, for some people, that level of competitiveness just in nature,

eyes helpful to like, go chase something or be better at something For me, it's just seeing what kind of impact that has had on other friends who were trying to chase like these valuations or, um, look at more of the's like vanity metrics. I've just seen the impact that has on them as people like. They're just so anxious and so overwhelmed and like they hit a milestone. And then there's the next milestone, and it feels even more overwhelming. There's just no end there. Um, so for me, it's just been like pretty freeing to realize that hey, we're doing is important. It might not be as like flashy as some things you read on TechCrunch, but it's enough for us to see the impact we're having for a team and for our customers.

And it feels great to build a valuable product that people are willing to pay for and keep improving it and still have time to spend with their families and focus on our hobbies and have a lot of fun together as a team. And that just feels, even when when it might be, we might be behind other teams on, like, various other metrics, it just feels good. And for me, that's enough.

That's a very relax, Xan Xan outlook on life. Yeah. All right. Well, what would you like our listeners to do when they finished? They go check out Web flow. Wet flow commerce.

Yeah. If you If you haven't seen what full before. A lot of people have this misconception. That is just like squarespace. Um

actually, it is not square door unused space with flowers.

We have the first thing that I would do is go to university that wet floor dot com and watch some of these tutorials like Wet Flow 101 or something like that, eh? They're super funny. Look, very entertaining. There's some of these tutorials where, like sometimes I just watched them for the humor. But also you will get a good sense of the power of weapon. Like a lot of marketing, teams are switching over the Web flow like entire startups. We have like hell, a sign and lattice and, like the list is now, look very long Where entire marketing department's air um, no longer relying on engineers, they're pushing everything through what flow, as does Web flow itself.

What we build 100% of our marketing stuff through our brand design team, but no engineer is involved. So check out some of those some of those tutorials that'll give you a really good idea of the power of what you'll see like the CMS. How how we tackle that visually, not through templates, um, and and that'll give you a good idea whether it's something that can help your startup or or your business or, you know, like recommended to your friends who can make a living off of what? Well, like a ton of people now, thousands of people now make a living exclusively from doing projects on what floor. So it's definitely different than than your typical website building that you might see a square space might say Super Bowl commercial for or might hear on your favorite podcast. Um, it's

Come on, stop promoting. They don't That's fine, Thanks for their money flow is building up. So yeah, actually, we're the

only I think we're the only website builder that builds our own website in the website builder itself. And we now have, like a whole list of other website builders that have have built, at least in part of their websites with Pueblo. Um and now there's been, like a whole, um, a host of other Web flow for, let's say, mobile, like a wet floor for mobile product, where it's just focused on the non website use case and all the recent ones have been built with like their websites.

There was one the other day, and I wrote them a common I was like guys, since I've been using web flow this looks really cool because it's been like that for mobile. And then I look in their source code and it's where Flo and I'm like. That's

my favorite moment like chicken, that sort of. Yesterday I had this the top three products on product Hunt ordered the Web sites were built with blood flow. One of them, of course, was what flow commerce. So that's kind of cheating. Um, but when the top three products on product times were all built with blood flowed like that was a huge point of pride is like Holy crap. I can't believe it's now getting to that level where it's becoming more and more of an obvious solution for marketing sites. At least

it's, uh, it's only a hockey stick. Girls

from here hope so. Hopefully crossing

fingers get well what? Thanks for coming. It's awesome to hear you talk about Web flow and how you get here, and I think it's really important for people to realize that like normal people can build really awesome cos in a normal way and kind of like the typically a $1,000,000,000 unicorn increasing. This is not necessary to gruesomely amazing and be happy. While doing? Amen. Well, there you've heard it. Vlad, the CEO of Web flow, arrived at who's building a company on his terms. If you've enjoyed this episode of Ride That Show, head over to ride that show dot com and sign out front years later said I can't let you know in the next episode drops. Also, if you can go to iTunes on your phone, the apple podcast, and leave us a good review that would really help to let more people know about the show already till next time.