this episode is brought to you by progressive. What would you do it with an extra $800? Buy a plane ticket, Pay down your student loans. Treat yourself to those shoes you been eyeing with progressive, you could find out drivers who switch and save save an average of $796 on car insurance. Get your quote online at progressive dot com and see how much you could be saving national average annual car insurance savings by new customers surveyed who saved with progressive in 2019. Hey, everyone, this is Cara Swisher. You may know me as the person Donald Trump calls care a podcast, but in my spare time, I talk tech here on Rico Decode Every week since 2000 and 15 we've been bringing you candid conversations with the most important people in text and media, and now we're doing a survey to learn more about you and what you've liked. Your answers will help us plan the future of Rico decode to better serve you. So please, if you have a few minutes today,

take the RICO Decode Survey at recode dot net slash pod survey. That's rico dot net slash pod survey. Thanks so much. I am Kara Swisher, editor large of Recode. You may know me as the host of the podcast today explained, explaining, or I summarize with Sean Rama's firm said in his podcast. But in my spare time, I talk tech and you're listening to Rico Decode from the Box Media Podcast Network today in the Red Chair is Sean Rama's firm, the host of box dot com podcast Today explained. It's a Daily News explainers show that launched a little over a year ago. Before coming to box, Sean worked at W. N Y C, where he created a pop culture podcast called Sideshow and worked on More Perfect, a podcast about the Supreme Court from the makers of radio Lab Sean. Welcome

to Rico Deco. Thank you care Can I just say quickly how weird it is to be being interviewed in this today? Explain Studio. I have never

been interviewing the magic

happen to all the interviews. Now

I'm being in. That's your little studio. I don't have a studio and they give me one. Shawn. Even I make a pile of money that way could share you could use are fine. You know, whatever. Anyway, let's take that. Jim Bankoff lets you know I did a podcast with Ezra, who is Ah, colleague Olsen. Time time We do these podcasts, but you're doing some really interesting stuff. And I want to talk about podcasting in general and how you got to doing it. So people get an idea of the business. There's just an idea.

Running for president is like having a podcast, a Democratic for But, you know, things been become rather popular of late. Everybody's do everybody's doing it, but they're not doing it well. But that's besides the point. Anyway, I want to talk about your journey from doing this because it has changed. I started buying about 45 years ago, so I don't like that now. But talk about your journey from why you got into

this. So just shy of 10 years ago, this this exciting new president had been elected had had come to Washington, D. C was his name of, uh, Barack Hussein Obama, right? And it seemed like there was a lot of jobs, whereas the rest of the country was experiencing quite a recession. So I came out here looking for something to do and wound up in radio and then, you know, fast forward 10 years, another exciting president has come to Washington D. C. And I sort of came back to do that. And in between that, there's a lot of trial and error because 10 years ago, this little podcasting industry

that you'd like to talk about you started upon us just didn't exist. You

could not make money in podcasting. No one was. It was sort of this Ault scene. And

if you want to get into it, explain how you got into. So I listen

to a lot of public radio from I'm part of this generation of people who got into podcasting because they were into public radio. Okay, s So I listened to a lot of w a m. You here in Washington D Stan Ream show Diane Remco Joe. Yeah, Shout out to co Joe Nagy and ah, you know, I wrote I've been applying for jobs there. No response. I thought it was like some hot shit just got outta college. Spoke Spanish, went abroad, volunteer, did all this stuff No one cared, Don't care. And so I started. You know taking a different tack, which was just e mailing the news director at WFMU, Jim Sandia was his name and just saying like, Hey, can I come hang out for free in your newsroom and work for you for free?

Free is a good price. He didn't respond,

Right? Dip wasn't interested. And then I just kept following up. Kept falling up, kept falling up. And then eventually he said, Sure, like one word response. Sure, Come in, let's talk. Ah, I go in with him and he says, You know, if you want to come hang out here, go for it. We'll see if you fit anywhere.

And that turned into, you know, writing part time for the radio station I was writing for some of the reporters there. The reporters there took a liking to me. Wouldn't teach me things here and there, but I really could not. I struggled to get my voice on the air, which you know in at a radio news. You want to get your voice on the air, you're not really doing a damn thing. Um, so then I started looking for jobs elsewhere, looked all around D. C. Started looking in Virginia. Start looking in Philadelphia.

I did. My radius kept getting bigger until I was like looking across the country and in Canada. And I found a tiny little radio station in Santa Cruz, California doesn't exist anymore. K U S P R i p. And they gave me the opportunity to just do whatever I wanted for like, $13 an hour. No benefits. S o I got to host all things considered. I gotto do news, local, a local stuff. Doing like promo is we're going to the Monterey Jazz Festival is doing social media doing everything right? So when from being like in a corner of a public radio station in a big market d c to doing everything to being the beach Jack Tiny market, like what? Block away from the ocean in Santa Cruz, California And that's where I learned a ton. And then

at some point, it would be an interesting sick because, you know, the University of California is there, and that's the that's It was cool. You see,

I was a very rare breed, though I was like a person who had finished college and came to Santa Cruz, California, work because work is not a huge. They got their town like college students.

Yeah, right. Exactly. Ah, nice. Weird, huh? Amusement park by the beach. A creepy emotion park, which was in Los Boys. That cut the city was What was I thinking? It was a vampire

movie. We lost boys in a quite a few serial killers. Yes, exactly.

You know tanneries, wasn't it? Yeah. Cane. A reason. Yeah. Anyway, it was It was It was, anyway, is a weird little town. It's a great town, but

it sure is. So I did. I did everything there. And then at some point, you know, two years go by and I figure like, Okay, it's time for me to get a job. I really had my my eyes set on being like a producer at a big national show. Because again, podcasting, even to this exists we're talking like 2011 2012. Still not a thing. I mean, ah, growing thing, But like,

not the kind of thing that you could go get a job with benefits and make money doing, um and so I'm looking at all these public radio stations, NPR and because I had it like a real character, building 18 months in the wilderness, trying to find a full time job. It was it was discouraging. I almost gave up. And then right when I was on the precipice of giving up, I got a job as a producer of Studio 360 with Kurt Anderson, and I got to go to New York and work a w N Y c, which,

if you want the big the Big Radius

if you want to work for a public radio station and doesn't get much bigger or better than WSC considering the history, it's it's got to be at least or the old Austin one, that in the station, the country exactly a lot of history and ah, and that was kind of what opened up. A lot of opportunities, I guess. There, I got to guess. I got to host this spinoff show called Sideshow. Uh, I got to go. Guest host queue at the CBC in Canada. Uh,

what was This was a podcast, though. This is a pop culture pocket. It

was at this time around, you know. 2013 14 15. Where where you start to see the rial interest in podcast.

What did you think of them? What was the first ones you listen to?

Radio lab. W t f with with Marky Mark. You know, the big ones, I would say. And my thing back then was still I was still like a public radio junkie. I was like, on the media. This American life was the kind of stuff that I would listen to it as a party. Yeah. I still hadn't, like, discovered that the niche world as much as I would have liked, I think. But, um, there was this sort of,

you know, momentum around. I think it w N Y c. At the time, it was like, man, podcast can really drive more traffic to our website. So I think that's kind of how people were thinking they were. They were, Yeah, you have a podcast. All of a sudden, there's more young energy Maur stuff being made that people are gonna click on on social media and it's gonna drive traffic to these websites Public radio station. But no one visited.

We had visited the locals NPR station, San Francisco to try to get initially show there. When was that? 05 years ago around. Yeah, Yeah, around that and then four or five years or something, something like that. And then we talked. I heart radio and tried out a weekly radio show. And I remember Bob Pittman. He would admit this is days like podcasts aren't going anywhere. And I was like, All right, well, we like him, like,

you know what I mean. It was a really interesting, but podcasts were something nobody, They just were like, Go do it if you want, right?

Probably when I seen you, because they had, you know, experienced incredible success with Freakonomics and radio, right? But they're still warned opportunities just dropping out of the sky like young producers to get involved. But, um, on the media had a spinoff podcast called T L D R, which is now reply all which was very successful for them, not only in doubling, I think they're downloads, but also in driving. As I said, a lot of traffic to the website. So studio 360 which is a similar show, a weekly sort of arts and culture magazine our long that came out on radio stations across country was like thinking, Hey, maybe if we did a spinoff podcast it could also boost

Our dad was spin off. They were all thought of spin offs, right?

Totally spin off was the name of the game of death. But I see right, it'll help bring more attention to the big show. And, you know, I think develops broadcast. Yeah, and develop some younger talent. So I got to do the t l D R thing at Studio 360. It was called Sideshow. It was a whole lot of fun. And that opened up a bunch of other

doors. Yeah, and then more perfect. Why the Supreme

Court? Why the Supreme Court? That is a question for Jad Abu Murad, but I think the answer is they made an episode about the Supreme Court called Adoptive Girl. I think it was this really brilliant story reported by a guy named Tim Howard who who then went on to be a producer, reply all. And I think Jared just saw that. Wow, like the Supreme Court has all of the drama and twists and surprises and gravity off the stories I like to tell. But it's this whole world of those stories. This one episode of Radio Lab was so good. Why don't we try and make a whole bunch of them right? And so they decide to launch the show. I actually came up with the name of it more perfect. And, uh, there's a more perfect union.

Exactly. And we I hung out for two seasons and made some some some episodes I'm really proud of, including one about a rule called Bats in the Bats and Rule, which is about from Case called Batson versus Kentucky, which is about racial discrimination in jury selection. And then one about the Second Amendment with With Dick Heller and his big case hello, versus

the District of Columbia. Yeah. So you then decided you wanted to have your own show, right? Like that's enough of this. Um, I

thought I could be good at it. I mean, I was happy making more perfect this show the today explain thing. They kind of approached

me, right? And one of the things that you're talking about not making money and doing things in this area. What do you imagine? Made it spike? Was it cereal or the daily? What do you think is

the cereal for cereal for cereal? And I think no one had seen success like cereal or imagined it, right? I mean, cereal. It's still, I think, like we even when they're not putting out episodes, it's in the top 10 down the share. No, but

why do you think that was what happened there? There was some good stuff Marc Maron was doing grace of A lot of people were doing great stuff. What's his name is a Frank was.

Yeah, Ariel really captured the imagination of what the medium could do. I think you know you a lot of before, that you had a lot of radio shows that people listen to as podcasts. And then you had a lot of podcast that were sort of like lo fi marketeers talking to his friends. But it's really compelling because Marc Maron has famous friends and have good stories. Serial was narrative, and it was narrative produced by the best people in the business. Ira Sarah Koenig, Starling Kind, all these people who had made really great radio for years. We're making something that was podcast first and true crime. It was the perfect thing, right, because people just are nuts

for truth, and

it wasn't necessarily a brand new idea. It was, You know, serialized radio about crime is right decades and decades and decades old. It was just sort of a forgotten idea tailored to this new medium at exactly the right time.

And why is it different from radio broadcast? Cause they have been doing this on her glasses show, you know, the stock in life. They've been doing this in broadcast form. And, you know, you have that typical and BR story like here in the village of Zihuatanejo, go in Mexico. You know, I mean, an entangled in college,

But that story's four minutes long. Sometimes it's eight minutes long, right? Cyril could be 40 minutes long, right? It could be 45 hour. It could be They could feature the curse words. It could be grim. It could be really dark. It didn't need to cut to an ad, right? I mean, I think there are a lot of things that freed

up so named more of those. I'd really like to get a sense of why that happened. Why? Why didn't why didn't why did that? Is it just the length?

I think it's the freedom of the medium, and it's the fact that I can listen to it whenever I want. It's not like I needed a tune in on Saturday morning at 10 a.m. To catch this American life or write or wait four days for them to post it online. It was this Buzzie well made thing that I could get whenever I wanted. That didn't have to play by any rules that came out at the exact right moment that had the platform of this American life to promote it. I think the first episode, at least of cereal, was played on this American life. So it had every public radio station, the country promoting it essentially. And then

the buzzer goes to it. I also don't want to leave out the idea of these devices. Devices out your air, your phone's change, the air pot, things like that this year apart. Yes, of course. I've had him for here beginning. I'm not getting the new ones will have wires to you. Yeah. Do you still respect me? Not really, but that's okay. I am judging you. Okay? Silently.

Well, actually loudly. But the shifting to mobile the people use thes is entertainment devices. Not just not just listening. But watching you and the ease of doing that, I think is also you can't. There was a really people got the iPhone in 2007 but it was, you know, it was later it. It took off in that way,

and that's the thing, I think. Ah, word used there That is very interesting is entertainment. Um, people were tweeting about, like this murder and weather on on dinner or not as if it were as if it was a joke. I think that was really interesting for me to see. I was like Somebody died here. Families were ruined by this, right? But But I think there was that zeitgeist e cultural moment. Where is like everyone needed to know who did it. It was like Did Tony die at the end of sopranos or something? But of course, it was also journalism, right? So I think it caught the people who wanted to hear a good journalistic important story being told, but also the people who just wanted to be entertained on the way home

from working a technology that now really worked late and then apple pushing the podcasts. And, you know, Google getting into it. It just created sort of this perfect storm of a lot of things. I need that technological boost toe happen, right that like there's all kinds of examples of that where some format doesn't hit until there's the actual devices to write, people use and people's comfort level with using. But that was interesting. And there were meetings,

you know, in public, at public radio stations across the country after that happened, saying, How can we do serial? How can we do serious? But the smart thing that Ira did was not say or Sarah, I should say, too was not go like how could they weren't asking. How could we make cereal? They were deciding how could make something great. And I think that's where you've seen a lot of great things happen. Is people just following their bliss as a podcast and making something super original and that you can say the same thing for s down which followed cereal,

right? Absolutely. We're gonna talk more about this more back with Shawn Rama's firm. He is the host of today. Explain. We're gonna take a quick break now. We'll be back after this. Hello. This is Jesse David Fox. I'm senior

editor at Vulture, and I helped the podcast. Good one. A podcast about jokes. It's a podcast about, well, jokes. Every week I sit down with a comedian, comedy, writer or director. We lister one of their jokes and figure out how it all

came together. I don't sit down with a pen in the pad and physically write down everything. I just not my style. Turns out comedians take jokes pretty seriously. I like all Joe's. Okay, that's what I do. That's what I live for. There's really nothing else I care about.

It's all very revealing. What did you sort of learn from this? What was your takeaway?

Nothing. I am not. I'm not a smart person.

Good one from Culture and the Box Media Podcast network Describe for free on Apple podcasts or on your favorite podcast at you do know to use the podcast

effort. I'll let a great question Jesse David Fox. We're here with Sean Rama's firm. He is the host of today. Explain on box. Um, the next thing, obviously, was the daily with Michael Barbara. Yeah, which has started to get people used to a daily dose of it was very different, which is a summary of news, which is something that they explained is like talk about that. I know you don't like talking about competitors, but that was that really did break through till

I'm very grateful for the dailies existence. I think it's the reason our show exists because Fox took a look at this thing and said, Oh, that's a great idea We could do something like that. But totally different

outcome was known for explainers, really, which is essentially what the daily is. You know, today there was one on AIDS that was good, But talk about that impact. Did people get used to this idea of

a daily? Sure. I mean, I think it's hard to talk about how the daily podcast came to be without talking about the 2016 election, where I think that's where The New York Times is sort of starting to test the idea of releasing a whole lot of news podcasts much more often. And it did really well because there was this heightened interest in our presidential politics in that moment,

right? And Michael, it covered politics. He was a political reporter. He's your friend, right? Yeah,

well, you know, but yeah. Uh, and I think

I didn't know him then.

I didn't know he was famous. Know him since? Yes. Since he's become famous. I'm glad you knew me back

when you did. I'll treat you exactly

the same way. So they do this sort of the political podcast. People are really listening. And then after the election, I believe they think Why don't we try and do this every day? And of course, it really works because the Trump administration is immediately something that needs heightened coverage. Exam? A daily podcast is a is a great form, right? And I think, you know, immediately you see NPR, which hesitated for a long time to release. Ah, morning Edition podcast. Because public radio member stations thought you're gonna eat away at our biggest fundraiser,

which is morning edition. We come on, we say you need this thing. You get it from us, give us money, right at this point, NPR, I think, says something like, Well, we can't just cede our entire you know, ownership of this market to the Times were dropping up first. And then, you know, luckily box came along third

today, explains. Yeah, I mean

shadows to the just for my client from Mike Pesca. Slate was doing a Daily news podcast before

any of those threes are interviewing. And Tom, you sure? So is it? But there was also Pod saves America. The pod guys talk with a daily, though they weren't, but there was another interest in it. It was getting you out of the trump

administer. Absolutely. I think there's a hum daily. There's a lot of interest in hearing Maur about the Trump administration. Be it positive or negative, whatever it was, right? I mean, it isn't just limited to podcasts. I mean, CNN got its best ratings from the 2016 election, Fox News and MSNBC. All of it is every ratings. Stephen Colbert became Number one agenda Fallon, right? I mean, there was this shift where everyone wanted to hear more about the administration. More about the news. And here we've come to fill that

there's all different things for different people. So talk about today. Explain. So how did you conceive it? Because there had been these others and like, that's what

I should say. I didn't conceive of it. I think you know,

how do you conceive?

Oh, sure. But all credit toe Alison, Rocky and Nashat Kirwa and Ezra and Lauryn Williams and Andrew Goaless, who's now a w c. For coming up with this idea. They approach stitcher about it stitcher funds our show, and I think they were looking for a host. And, um, I think because I had hosted things I may be came up as a candidate who might have an interest in doing something like this.

So how do you look at it? How? What is your goal for today? Explain.

Okay. Yes. Oh, um uh, I thought Well, wow, this terrifies me doing a show every day when everyone I know already listens to the daily. When I listen to Morning Edition every morning, why should there be another thing? And I actually have several friends who work for the daily. So I asked them. I said, Hey, like,

should another one of these

things exist? We already got 21 from you guys want from NPR. Does the world need another one? And they were like, Of course, the world needs another one like it? What's a good example? John Oliver didn't go well, the Daily Show already exists. Let me not make a show on HBO, right? And Stephen Colbert and go like, Oh, well, you know, I already did The Colbert Report. Let me not do late night or whatever it is.

I mean, there's a lot of shows. There's a lot of new shows. There's a lot of comedy shows doing the news. Why not have more of these Daily news podcast? So what could this one do differently? Um, approaching it, I thought immediately. Well, the box explainer mission. We're not going to sit around and pontificate or or, you know, speculate about the news. We're just gonna tell you everything you need to know to understand it and go up there and make informed decisions. If you look at what we cover every day,

we're literally just explaining news stories almost all the damn time. I mean, this week it's been ah, CBD. It's been the case of Curtis Flowers at the Supreme Court. It's been the shooting and, you know, white supremacy in America. We are trying to really understand these issues so that in theory we could go out to make informed decisions, and also I thought an opportunity that we had was to make a very human sounding show to make us a show that that feels like it's about what it's like to be a person trying to understand this news in this moment. And that means that sometimes it's very sad. Yes, like the shooting in New Zealand. But sometimes it can be kind of funny like this, buying your way into the Ivy League scandal from from last

week. It's a little funny. It's a little kid going to college. You're like, That's not funny. I mean, that is unfunny. Elements

of this story are certainly very check out our episode. It's called Becky with the bad grades. Uh, and thank you, Thank you, thank you, CBD This week we did because it just feels like it's everywhere and it's worth explaining, and we were able to have a little fun with that. It's also serious, but I think we try to make a show that really captures the full range of human experience, which is to say that sometimes it's funny. Sometimes it says, sometimes it's weird. Sometimes it's wacky. It's

all of you make selections because I think people don't understand how you decide. Obviously, there's obvious news stories you could just repeat for sure. Like I said, something dumb every day. Yes, gets in a fight. Or like McCain, How did you He didn't have a show on that yet. Correct

this current McCain saying all the tweets, you know, definitely not. Because I don't know if there's a ton to explain right there. We like

to really just like What a mess. Thank you. Yeah, we like designing off episodes

that hold 20 minutes that go into the history that go into analysis that that fully comprehensively explain a given issue. And, you know, the thing that's trending on Twitter is not always that what happened with the 7 37 is a great example of that. I think, you know, protests in Sudan are a great example of that. I mean, but that comes stuff. Sometimes there's not a whole lot there or it's super say me. And when we do

episodes per se mi, I like, yeah, it's just

like we've done when we feel like we've done this episode before. Like we can't put in all those human emotions. That elements I told you about because we're bored. I know. So I think we love to explain stuff that we haven't explained before. We like to dig into something. And the box staff here in this newsroom is so good at that and and help us to that end, I think when when we do international things, when we cover evergreen subjects like like CBD, which might not be like newsy today, but are sort of ongoing. We get, like, a great response, people. I was like, Oh,

I'm so glad you did that. Thank you for covering Venezuela. We really needed that, You know? So So, so far, I think people have really appreciated

that Pulcinella was here because he was here.

Sure. Uh, Wilson Arrow, Brazil.

Right. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, But we did that one too.

Yeah, I think we're way love to do international stuff because we just don't hear that much about that right now because so much of the focus is

on tremendous. Well, until the chief of staff was might have to do that. Yeah, And so what is the criteria, then? Just that it can be explained or that it's more, you know, you don't want to do stuff that same that you've done and also that everybody else

is doing. I mean, we've done the Muller investigation like, at least

a dozen times already. Apparently, just immediately we're

ready when he is. But I think,

uh, immediately it's dropping. You know, immediately there've been many times

were like there was something that was our bubbled up with the mullahs investigation. But then, like, quickly fell away because it was like, Oh, we know a bit more about the thing. We kind of wait for the big breaks to do,

like a fully flesh is everybody's covering it. So how in this world where everybody is carrying something like, there's instant to interact to every news story, how do you sort it out? How do you differentiate? OK, I think that I

had an easy one. I can give you answer that. So? So when When Cohen first broke when that ends first broke. It was so ridiculous. I mean, particularly involved porn stars. It involved bullying. There was there were so many sort of like, comical elements to this. It was just really just you couldn't believe some of the stuff you were reading. I mean, like just try and imagine any of that happening during the Obama administration that the president was paying off porn stars right through this lawyer. There

was a family or even just try and imagine it during the Bush years.

Even then, it would have seemed ridiculous. So

So instead

of going like, Okay, let's just, you know, dunk on. The president talked about how ridiculous our current politics are. I had this idea like, you know, this investigation, this private personal lawyer of the attorney. It's kind of got these elements to me that like or reminiscent of, ah, of like, a film noir. I can't really explain why, but I thought, Why don't we get Andrew Pro Cop from Box?

Who's done the explainers on this for the site into the studio and have him just tell the story. I'm not gonna ask him any questions like Andrew start at the start and get all the way to the end, and then we'll do like a second half. That's more like analysis, but I just want you to talk at me and he talked at me, and then I told my mom hasn't felt our producer who's who's really musically gifted. I said like, Hey, what if, like we like Drop Andrew's story that he's telling about Cohen over a jazzy beat with Like based on some claps and some snaps? And then, you know you hear like Christina Anima Sean, Who's this amazing graphics illustrator of Box who also has an incredible singing voice Going like Essential Consulting Way made this amazing episode called Dial See. For Cohen, that is like the story of the Colon and Mueller investigations. Visa VI, like this new, are jazzy

store. It's ridiculous, but it totally works and it's fun. And it's like it

takes advantage of the tools we have in this medium, which is, you know, let's make it musical. Let's make it sound interesting. Let's make you want to lean in and and not hit Pause when your when your friend texts.

You know you you have to do something different for the audience of more millennial on. I don't think that's a Kennard. I don't think millennials need stupidity. Stupidity. No, dumb down. But you're talking about a different way of telling stories or yeah, we did. I don't

think we dumb it down,

I think. Well, I don't think you do it all. I'm just saying, How do you look at that? It's a lot like Mike die. Like I always thought, Why did Melanie's need special news?

Don't Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. No, I do think this medium is so young and a lot of it is people following patterns that they think need to be, you know, sort of maintained and and promoted, like I hear your radio lab. And then you hear a lot of podcast that sound like radio. You hear this American life and hear a lot of pockets that sound like this American, obviously this American life version of whatever

taking in the villages you want. Todo favorite Exactly. S O R r approaches.

Just like okay, there's like So what? There were three daily news podcasts or for when we launch. Now there's, like, 10 or something, maybe more. How are we different while our show has fun? Our show will sing you some news when it

when it is not fun, is it? I mean, that I let Michael, but it's not

a lot of fun care. That's for you to decide.

I'm not sure, Jack, but I do think he should do some jazz. Michael, if you're listening to some jazzy things because you need some jazz and love your work, Michael, I think our this is box a little trippy Red takes

take itself terribly seriously. There's the occasional article about, like animal poop on the box home page. Yeah, we had an opportunity to have some fun and also to, like, experiment with the medium. We're constantly trying to think of ways to do things totally differently, like the show doesn't always need to open with. I'm Sean Rama's

vermin. This is today explained. It could

open with just a voice telling a story about a thing it could open with some music. It could open with a clip. It could open, garbled and then turn into, you know, a clearer sound.

I think total silence. Just my idea. Absolutely just total silence.

For 20 minutes we'll lose. A lot of listeners know, but honestly, that is exactly how we think of it. I mean, as much as we can. As much as our intense production schedule allows, we like to experiment and tinker and throw out the rule book and created a new

and so where do you think the trends are then going in like they were gonna get into the podcast business in general? Excitement. But what are the trends? Is it to up end storytelling or or what? Because this is a huge opportunity to use all kinds of tricks and and new techniques.

I mean, I think storytelling is the core of all of it. If you're not, it's it's celebrities or stories. That's how you're gonna get your audience. Right.

Okay. What? Elon

musk on this show, You know,

no stranger to this, Although you'd be surprised of people who are popular people, you don't know people to surprise people. Really? Nobody knows Jamal Palihapitiya, but that podcast did great.

It did? Well, yeah, I mean problem because there was some really good stories in there. That's exactly that's what it is exactly. So the things that are going to get people to lean and it's like, Oh, Carrie got Ellen fucking musk like everyone's gonna listen, or it's like,

Oh, I heard this thing

on this podcast that was so good. You really have to hear it. And we don't have a ton of celebrity on the show. We don't even pursue it. What we pursue is making things that make you go. Whoa! Like that was really good. We did this, um, episode about robo calls, which not terribly museum, but, like, everyone's getting more of them. And we just went to town on the history of phone scams. We had so much fun with it again. This producer?

No, Um ah. Hassenfeld did did a bunch of sound design, but that's not it. I mean, it's so the march for our lives about this time last year here in D. C. The way we approach that was like, Okay, let's get the hell out of the studio. The marches in D. C. So I went out on Saturday, got a bunch of tape, interviewed a kid who was here from Chicago who represented sort of a different side of gun violence. Not the mass shootings,

but the everyday gun violence in this country. And then, for the second half, one of our producers, Luke Vander Blue, he got a, um and this is through the boxes. First person. Siri's. We should say Karen Turner helped with this, but she got a Columbine survivor talking to a Parkland survivor and it was extremely powerful and devastating at times. And it was just It came out of people sitting in the room thinking about like, Okay, so this news is everywhere. What can we do that's

different. So you're trying to different. So the New Zealand murders. How did you look at that? It's how you think that Think me through very quickly. Yeah.

For last Friday's show, uh, came in with that plan ready to go almost. And then there was some very serious discussions about whether we should cover the shooting, which again, is all over NPR that morning, which is wall to wall on TV. What do we do? Okay, so the first question I asked is, How can we explain it? And then everyone the team from you know, our e p to our producers were all thinking Okay, what are the angles? What can we say? And, um, after some time, I think we came up with Okay, This was the first mass shooting that was so

online. Yeah, from the internet, by the internet for the end.

Exactly. And that was something we can dig into, like, Okay, now we have something that sets us apart. Now we have something we can explain. We got a great writer from the verge on the show to do so, and we had an episode. It may not have been the most profound observation cause I think that was sort of being discussed online. But it wasn't just a tweet about it. It was like a 10 minute meaty conversation about the implications, the methods and and how, you know, scary. That moment was on Monday. It felt like we should dive deeply into it again. But we don't want to repeat ourselves,

and we don't repeat what's out there. So we took a totally different approach. Ah, the first half of the show is, Ah, one of our reporter producers out there at a vigil, talking to Muslim Americans about whether they're afraid to go back to mosque to pray. It's hearing people speak hearing people sing, hearing people recite poetry that they've written about this event. It's just very emotional, Um, and the second half of that show was a total 1 80 It was like a really trenchant conversation about increasing white supremacy in United States with the ProPublica reporter. Um, I think we're always just asking, You know, what can we do to cover this news? That's

to make it easy. People understand, make sense of it and, you

know, actually be like a

value added. Yeah, we never out of news. All right, we're here with Sean Rama's firm. He's the host of today, explained. We'll take a quick break down when we get back. We'll talk about where podcasts are going. We're here with Sean Rama's firm. He's the host of today, explained on box dot com, which is a podcast that explains everything today. Um, were podcast going. I just asked you, and you said,

Well, podcast going and you're right, your best radio boys. But it's really like it's a joke that there's so many, Um, but there's now so everyone everyone calls me like it's like a podcast. I'm like, Well, what's your idea like, what's your product? And it's really kind of I just want to do I just want to talk to people and I'm sort of like, Okay, everyone

wants to host their pockets. I think Mark Camel tweeted this week like Oh gosh, the future is everyone has their own podcast. GIF is of R two d two. Just eating shit like

he's an excellent Twitter, but these stick to Twitter long. Thanks. My favorite George

Conway, George Conway explained. Kara Swisher wants George

Collins incessantly. If you'd like me to have it on, I'm okay. I'm entranced.

My producers like, I hope we're getting a podcast out of the state of your, um, okay, wear podcast going. I have hopes of where podcast going, Tuck

and I talk about that. First, I There's this new podcast by John Mualem. Mom does not pronouncing that right, but he's a wonderful storyteller that he's always on California. Sunday. Yes, so good. They're probably magazines. Fantastic.

Eric, you gotta pronounce around. John,

could you help us? No, that's all right. He's great. Okay. So, John, his new podcast, it's called. I think it's called Walking. Have you heard about this? No. Notice anything? He would take

one. Guess about the concept of the show us around. He walks around and the woods in a park on a sidewalk, and he just records it. And then, at some point in the show, he stops and he reads it at that. Then he starts walking again. It was like 45 minutes. Can you imagine?

Say funny things that No, he didn't say a damn thing, really. Just he's just fucking with us, and that's gonna be a pop up magazine thing. But you know what? He might be fucking with us. But I'm so grateful. That is always just like Here's a podcast because I like he was a California Sunday magazine show way. Just don't eat another chat show. I mean,

there will be another great chat show, Mark my words, but I think people forget that this is a medium with no limitations

and what's what's. It's very Democratic. Anyone can do it to make a podcast with your cell phone on the subway, and it could be that that's the second season. Subway Get public transportation is the worst smelling season of walking ever. Um, I

think there's so much experimentation to be done in the future of this medium, and I'm so excited to hear it. A new show. I really love

you and you were on it. Listen to your

of it was 10 things that scare me. I see

it was a weird one. It is a weird show. It's not as weird as walking how well it's doing. I get

the sense it well, here's some problems with the If you think about the business side versus the creative side, I think more about the creative side. Um, you might want to talk about the business side, but we could do both. But here's the thing. This show doesn't have ads on it. It's like five minutes long, 5 to 67 minutes long. It's people talking about, as as the title was suggesting things that scare them. You talked about your

kids quite a death in a raccoon. That record is funny

that reckon, Listen to cares. Episode of 10

things that scare me Just tell you that was one gangs direct. The fact that I faced off with him was like insane. You give people the quick Oh, I just was talking about 10 things, mostly was death, that death and more death. But really, what I was talked about is that I'm not scared enough. And so I used the example of this crazy raccoon that this gang of raccoons in San Francisco I faced off with They were like his biggest small Children, a strong, small Children sure, with claws and sharp teeth. And I just for some reason gotten to like a beef with, um And so it just was I was like, was the whole point of them? I'm I'm scared that I'm not scared enough of things. And I should not be beefing with raccoons in San Francisco. I totally agree. Yeah,

yeah. Okay, so there's this show. It doesn't have a really clear marketing plan or or, you know, business purposes. It's interesting, it's creative. And I think it's very compelling on. And they've had people like you. They've had just random listeners. They've just had, ah, people who work in the building. They had Scaramucci,

and it's it's just refreshing

to hear something short and different. And I think,

Ah, lot of seven minutes. You're right. It was different. Yeah,

I'm really excited to hear more things that just sound really new and radical because I think the best versions of this medium that we have so far be it cereal or or radio lab or, um, you know, Song Exploder or Jesus. You know, you must remember this all the shows they weren't people trying to really imitate something as much as they were people just following a kind of crazy seeming idea that's now doing incredibly

well right now. Do these things have to coalesce around a big thing like walking, I'm guessing is not going anywhere. But that might not be a hit. It might not be a hit, but they all are a gimlet selling the sold sold, you know, hundreds of millions. What do you think about that? Because, you know it is a good business. People. No, I'm always like I was like They're like, Oh, you can't make money And I'm like, No, you can't Don't do it like because you can't like you actually can. If you do, let's talk about the business idea so interesting

to me that that gimlet has sold now for

like, three 100 they made explained they may. They may gimlet.

What shows they made gimlets a gimlet was the first sort of big podcasting house founded by Alex Bloomberg from Planet Money, formally this American life, and Matt Lieber, who had been around in public radio for a long time. I think the genesis of it is Bloomberg does this huge T shirt experiment at Planet Money where he wants to track the making of a T shirt from inception for my the concept to the store floor and he does a Kickstarter for it, cause NPR is like we're gonna pay for that or whatever. Do a Kickstarter. She would see what happens and he raises

a ton of money, and I don't

think he's allowed to keep the money. The show isn't allowed to keep the money because member stations

are like, Hey, we want that money like you guys can't create new funding models because I got to get out in public radio and I think that's kind of what happened. He was like, Well, like, there's clearly this, you know? Yeah. He followed his capitalist blisters. I thought, like there's an interest

here. There's like, a way to make money here. Why isn't anyone doing it? And he went off and was like, the first, like Public radio All Star to go. I'm gonna get into this podcast. He didn't start out really start ups. The first show, It's about his business. It's it's very dramatic, and Ernest a times and and you know he's in the room with your Silicon Valley people Tryinto holding out his hat and right, okay and raising VC for his first podcasting enterprise is one of the first big shows, which is still big shows. Reply. All very successful. From there, they get mystery show. And what are some other ones?

There's a bunch, every little thing and they get sold

to, and they get sold just recently, just this year

to Spotify, now moving 300 millions allegedly. Anyway, that's a whole lot of money for

public radio people, and the whole world is noticing. You know, it's a big, big deal.

And and beyond that, I mean, there's

a show on Amazon right now called Homecoming, starring Julia Roberts, and the genesis of that show, a gimlet podcast called Homecoming. You know, this is a big deal. It's a big deal because the ads air working and people are responding to them. And that's why the invasion of mattresses and toothbrushes here, you know, and then

and then that's a big growing up. It's sort of like cable. It starts with the mattress and toothbrushes or the mail to your shores. Update was in some big shows, and it's like BP

and shell, and you know J. P. Morgan Chase Stanley Bank. All this stuff so

and the other thing

that we should talk about is that the podcasts are are like intellectual property. It's this huge source of of ideas were getting pod movies that are made out of podcast. There's an HBO thing on Adnan Syed right now, right? The cereal, um character person, Um,

it's It's everywhere. Yes, truly. Think the jig might be up that gimlets alone because it couldn't get more money? Could trouble talking about the bubble they couldn't make money. Thinks the jig is up. Many people. There's all these podcasts that is too many. The finances of the jig will be up blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, that's

interesting. I've been hearing that this is just a bubble since,

yeah, since the jump, I don't think that the whole time I want to thank the jig is up. But I think there is a lot of getting like the people, not thinking as a product of his money that make what could make money. What can't like to be thinking? I know that's not creative, right? I think a lot about that.

I mean, there's a lot of money in this business right now, and it's it's really interesting to see how that's developed because most of these podcasts started the successful ones started with, like from a lot of the successful pocket I started from like public radio like cereal like S Down like Right, like Radio Lab like Freakonomics and public radio. Not the best at making money or spending money. And now a lot of business people are coming into it and changing it dramatically and very quickly,

and it's a little head spinning to me. It's the next iteration of radio, which has always been a good business. Is just a way television and Netflix a captive audience. Well, it's It's like television to Netflix. That's what it is that you know what I mean. We had people are not in cars and broadcast doesn't work as well because they aren't. They're not in places, and so they can use thes wherever they are. And that's really it's the same thing with Netflix, the changing a shit, time shifting of entertainment and other content and demand audio. So I like Netflix that people thought Netflix the jig was up from while If you remember Like it? I don't remember. Yeah, because I thought Amazon DVDs No one's gonna deliver to the home.

Initially, there was problems and then there wasn't like the direct. I always think if something's directionally correct, he should stick with it. Like, for example, right now, everyone's like the jig is up on Bitcoin. I'm like, directionally crypto currencies makes sense. So do so does the changing, you know? I mean, like, directionally It's correct. Yeah, that's how I think about it. I

think I wonder about with regards to the bubble is this thing is still super young. This thing hasn't survived a recession. For example, if there was a serious recession like the one we saw in 8 4009 would would mattress firm and and you know, Casper And

that's a mattress For what? All of those companies still

want to buy podcast ads, don't they? Would they still think that this is where their money should go on? Then what would that mean? How many shows would survive that?

It's true. That's a really interesting I think they would, because I think it's certainly expensive way to reach a lot of people, and one of the thing, it's just they. The measurements aren't quite there yet the knowing of the impact, But I will tell you just anecdotally from fans I mean you may experience is I have people coming up to me all the time now and it's on Lee about the podcast. It's really interesting. It's a lot like that every day. Please, I love your pod game articles. People

like Skip through shows, but they really listen to pockets. They might do it on what, one and 1/2 speed or whatever. But they listen and they're concentrating on it, and it's very intimate, and I think that's why the ads work. That's why advertisers and moving towards podcasting,

because likes interested in real

return. Because when you hear the host of the thing you like, talk about this thing and it's funny or it's smart or cute or

whatever it is, there's a connection they dig up. Thing is when it's not thought out carefully. But I definitely it's definitely a fascinating thing since I've tried all kinds like I do events. I did the party like I have this one encounter right at the beginning of doing podcasts where I had, um, I was in the metro in San Francisco, in the bar, whatever I think was in the Metro and four young African American women ran up to me like I'm like walking in with my bags and stuff like that and like, Oh my God, it's Cara Swisher And I'm like, not my demo like it's not that like the debt if you look, we see our data for re code, for example. And it's all essentially white men, right at a certain age and some Asian men, some Indian men.

But it's really very clear where our audience was a lot of doing a whole lot of Jews. And I was like, Oh, hi. And they're like, We love you. We love this podcast and they loved all kinds of like they liked one with Bill Gurley. They liked one here. They're entrepreneurs who were doing a makeup started, but I don't think it was online partially, but it was making you know, something like that and which I loved. I was like, This is great. This is what we think. We loved entrepreneurship that they liked.

I was doing a lot of entrepreneurs And I said, How do you you know, we love this. We love that. They were very clear on the stuff they like and then they were They want to take Selfie is the whole thing. Like I do a lot of self because of the podcast And they were like, I was like, Well, how do you like the website? And they said, What? Webster? Oh, no. And I was like, Okay,

whatever. And however you want to get our information because we do put the podcast on the website like that. It was really interesting because it was a different kind of listener who really does enjoy it. And it's not necessarily young as I get older people coming up to me, and it's a fascinating to me. It's a really fascinating. It does get creating intimacy. I mean, do you have that happen to you? Podcasts fit

into whatever you're doing right. They shouldn't be the thing you listen to while you're in the bathroom getting ready for work. You could be the thing. You listen to what you're cooking while you're taking care of the kids, picking someone up where as to go to the website. You need to actively sit down to go

to the website, right? Right. The podcasts come to you. Would you feed You have an intimacy with your listeners? E

try to avoid them at all

costs. You know, mostly on

Twitter. I keep a low profile care d c. I retired to Washington, D. C and not may. I

don't keep a low profile, but you but it's a really interesting. It's, um, interesting medium. We'll see how it shakes out. Do any predictions us and that any predictions of where it's going, what do you see? Just growth. Growth, growth.

I mean, I think the sky's the limit. I would encourage all young podcasters to break

all the rules. Break all the rules. There aren't any. Go for a walk. Read an ad hit. Publish. You know, I really am excited, John. You Alan. John. John. Well, okay, I'm gonna try that out. But any anything that you see that you're like that is so besides walking. But, you know, that's a stunt, but all right, go ahead.

Not me. Okay, so So the thing I'm excited for as a as a maker of this stuff, as someone who slaves away with this team of six people every day to make a really compelling thing is to see how people go in really interesting places with the medium right now. I'm excited. Yeah. If you think of audio as the way you think of, say, film like we're still in the black and white period of podcast and great, what color gonna look like smell. What's three gonna look? Television. Yeah. What's Dolby Surround sound? THX Lucas film Pixar. What are those things gonna be for this medium? I can't wait. I can't wait to feel old and enjoy

it. It might stay simple, Sean. Simple, sometimes best. Anyway, I appreciate it. Sean Rama's firm, he's the host of today explained It's one of my favorite podcasts. I listened to it every day. Actually. Listen to daily one day in yours one day. That's how I do it. Which do you like more care? I like yours is more fun. Years is more fun, but I love that Barbaro voice.

I don't know why he's great. You know, I like them both. I depends on the topic. I'll be honest. It depends on what topic I wanted to it was a better dresser. That's the real important questionnaire of Oh, sorry, brutal. He's natty, you know. It's not for everyone. Come on, you're hipper, but he's not here. You know,

he looks like he's like a figure out of 18th century Victorian times. When I was in the eye of the beholder, I swear the other day he was wearing spats. I'm sure there was. If he wasn't, he was. He was figuratively wearing spats in my head. And so I like them all. I like them all. I think they're really interesting into and and I like him. Depending on the topic, you write the story, and that's where it goes to. Um but I do. I listen to a lot of podcasts and those air to that I knew all the time. Anyway,

thank you for coming on to the judge and thank you all for listening. You can also find more episodes of Rico decode on apple podcast Spotify Google podcast. Wherever you're listening podcast. And please tell a friend about the show You can follow me on Twitter at Cara Swisher. Sean. Working people find you online. I that rama sperm. Good luck spelling it. Can you spell it for you? Just like it sounds

are a m e S w a r E m.

All right. Thank you. You can come with this. Go to our other podcast, recode media and pivot. You can find those shows wherever you found this one and obviously listen to today. Explained every single day because he's working. You are just working your You're just a little last knuckle, aren't you? And I think you'll like it. Yes. It's also very funny. It is very funny. Especially the jazzy one, which I'm gonna go back and listen to that. Is that one day I'll see for Cohen. Okay,

I will. Thank you for the CIA's episode of Rico Decode. Thanks. Their editor, Joel Robbie, and our producer, Eric Johnson. I'll be back here on Monday Tune. And then this episode was brought to you by Progressive. What would you do with an extra $800? Buy a plane ticket, pay down your student loan. Treat yourself to those shoes you've been eyeing with progressive. You confined out drivers who switch and save save an average of $796 on car insurance. Get your quote online at progressive dot com and see how much you could be saving national average annual car insurance savings by new customers surveyed who saved with progressive in 2019.