Hey there. Welcome to the sales. We found his podcast. I am your host, Louie Nichols on Dhe. As you can probably tell today by the fact that there's no intro music, I'm trying something a bit different on DDE. What I'm doing is a slightly different format I'm planning on alongside the normal weekly expert and founder interviews that I do on also doing some shorter office, our style episodes inspired by the indie actress podcast With Courtland out. What I've seen from doing a lot of mentoring and coaching in the sales have found his course is that Founders 10 to experience a lot of the same challenges and problems in the early stages on DDE that sharing recordings of some of those sessions has been super useful for everyone else in the course group. So what the's office are episodes are gonna be is a chance for you to hear founders who are sort of in the same shoes as you are struggling with the same challenges that you're gonna face on dhe. I'm hopefully going to walk through how they can overcome and and solve those challenges and do sales a bit better and build a better business now if the feedback is good of people like it. If I get a lot of responses, then I am going to add this in as a weekly recurring office hours episode, probably on a Friday as well as the normal Wednesday interview, which has been going out for a while now in terms of format, will probably have 3 to 4 founders who we catch up with once a month each on.

We'll probably do that for a few months so you can follow, along with how they progress on also see into a variety of different businesses at different stages from people may be just beginning to think about an idea all the way up to growing a business with 789 10 15 k and Mara. So if you like the idea, please let me know on Dhe. If you want to participate yourself as one of the founders that I will be coaching on these sessions, then I'm going to be sending out an invite linked to people who were on the early access wait list for the Settles. We found this course, and that, in fact, is gonna be going out on Wednesday, the 20 from November. So if you're interested in taking part, head on over to sales for founder's dot com as soon as possible on dhe, stick in your E mail address for the early bird. Wait list to make sure that you get an email invite so you can sign up and try and get one of these places on dhe. If you're interested in learning how to do sales on to grow your business to $10,000 in monthly recurring revenue,

then I think you'll want to be on that early bird list anyway, because the early bird discount codes for the launch off the South's father's course are going out early next week. So you don't want to miss out on getting that discount before we do the normal launch sometime in early December. Anyway, let's dive straight into today's office hours on Today I'm chatting with Pat Walls, who you probably know as the founder of started story dot com. Now, as you be able to tell from the episode, I'm still working out the format of this on dhe. Unfortunately, Pats audio quality wasn't the best, so I'll apologize for that advance on we will improve on both those things in the future episodes. This episode was actually recorded in early September of 2019 when Pat reached out to me and asked for some advice on early sales. His new product, Pigeon Now Pigeon, is a C R M and an email sequence tool that lives in Gmail on Dhe.

At the time that we were talking, Pat had made a handful of sales, so he had paying customers. But he was still very much in the early days that most of you listening probably know all too well, not quite understanding exactly who his customers yet or how to reach out and sell to him. So let's jump right into the conversation where Pat is explaining exactly what it is that is product us.

Yeah. So, um, pigeon is a theorem built inside Gmail. So if you're looking for ah, way to kind of track your leaves, your prospects, or whatever kind of business you're doing over you now, it gives you, uh, interface inside Gmail. To do that, I want to give you some automation tools like automated follow up mail merge, send out cold e mails, email tracking and a bunch of other things. So if you run an agency or your, maybe a recruiter is a little different. Basically, everyone uses email. So I was a good way to kind of spend less time in the mail and maybe close more deals or maybe avoid from deals, fall through the cracks.

Sure. So what's the kind of the status of it now?

Yeah, so? Well, when I first launched it, I didn't wash it to the niche. Which was why I built the product was to solve my own problem because I was doing so many e mails for my blog's, which is like an interview base block where I do the interviews. I just had so many e mails that I needed a way to organize that. So I started building the product for people that run similar website do Ally interviews are a lot of emails for their block, Um, after a lot. So I launched that, and I basically built up a small list of like 100 to 150 people. Uh, and then I converted about seven customers toe try out the app before it was launched, so I got them locked down. And then after launching now,

about two months ago, I think then I started to the hapless public. I started figure out how am I gonna grow the app? And I sort of pivoted a little bit more to the crn side of things so that the app could be used for, uh, different use cases because it was hard to find a target customers for that niche that I was looking for. So over the last two months, I've been spending a lot of time figuring out who is that Who's going to be the target customer of this app and is it gonna be? And you didn't really know what it was gonna be. It's gonna be agencies is going to be startups. Is there gonna be recruiters? Is it gonna be someone looking for a job? Uh, you know, there's lots of different things could be used for, but I threw the advice through against the advice of most people gave me is that I didn't I don't have a target customer,

So it was tough for me to grow at first. I mean, still tough for me to grow. But you gave me the advice to visually closed off the app so no one could sign up for it and said, Take e mails and then, uh, get on meeting with people and just see what they do. You know, there's some people that agencies and people are starting up. Some people are doing their own thing and just talk to people. If the app abuse will give them a damn bow and then try to sell them on the app left I've been doing over the last month or so, which has been going pretty well, but yeah, that's our Matt and I have about 15 paying customers, including

myself. Nice.

So, um, but, you know, I could be doing better, obviously.

Yeah, but it's new, right? So yeah, and so what? What's kind of what's keeping you awake at night? The moment What's what's? The next step was the big challenge.

So, uh, yeah, the next. The next challenge is really finding that customer that is gonna be the target customer, and I think it's gonna be unfortunately, kind of not, unfortunately, but I feel like I kind of put myself because I had this audience, like in the actor audience Twitter audience. Ah, lot of people just hear about the after that. And then they say they're interested. So end up being like agencies for startups, people running their own ass and things like that. I get a lot of interesting that after it makes me feel like that might be the target audience. Just a function of that,

Um that feels like that might be useful, especially the agency side. Smaller agencies. I talked to agency owner who basically said that would be super useful for, like, the follow up, like not letting deals fall through the cracks. I would love that, You know that he's doing and he runs the agency of, like, 3 to 4 people again. That's how the highest amount of lead that I get. Um, yeah, that's a big thing that I have this Google audit thing that's gonna be hopefully solved in the next that goes along with the bigger picture of how gonna make on boarding better. How can I do the ah ha moment when people talk about the ah ha moment? Ah, and then just generally keeping customers interested in the app after they've

signed up. Right? Okay, so what I like to think about us when we talk about is gonna think is, like our stage or you're a guest at your stage, right? Planning a month ahead is kind of difficult. It's a long time, but like in a week, you don't have time to get feedback, right? The feedback loop, especially when you're doing direct sales, is pretty small. So I always like to think like I think, like, two weeks is kind of a sweet spot.

So why do you think you want to be in, like, you know, in two weeks, What would you like to have changed

in two weeks? I'd like to switch up. My and I are getting advice from you on This one is my sales process. Perhaps we can have a little bit. Um I want to somehow get people to pre pay, or at least put their credit card down before we do the demo. Because one of the issues is, uh get others tell you that this to a You know what I think I should do that. I get people interested in the app. I give them a demo. They're really excited about it. They say this is great. And then I sent him sign of obstruction and that they lag on, sign up. Sometimes I have to set a few more followers to get them to sign up or they haven't signed up yet. And they, you know, I never signed

up, right? Why do you think that this

part of the problem is probably that it doesn't feel like it's like a nice to have solution, just like whatever they want to do. Like there is some. They want to get it set up, but they don't feel like they need to set it up right now, obviously.

Okay, yes. So what are you trying to solve exactly with the pre payment? Or it's a pre credit card

just to build, like, a little bit more? Uh, I don't know the word. Like what I did when I first sold the product. I got the payment for back when I launched it. Um, I got them excited about the product. They're excited about the problem Assault. Like I get a lot of people that after they put their email and I start you knowing them to say, this is a great deal, I really want to solve this. And then, um And then, you know, we go through the whole dental process,

and I don't know how they fall off in that manner. So to capture that excitement that they want to solve that problem, get their credit card and then don't mean it, like, give them the opportunity to, you know, I'm not a Ford or cancel at that moment. But again, E guess like it people would say, Like if you can get people to put down their credit card, that means that you are solving important problem.

Yeah, sure. I mean, I think there were two reasons you might want the credit card, right? Or two possible reasons to get the credit card I got. I guess one of us, like you say it's that buy in, right? So if they, uh if they put in the credit card, it means they're already bought in. The default is they're gonna pay for this little taken more seriously. Um, and then the other reason, maybe you're safe as well. It's just if people put in the credit card,

then you don't have to work on. You have to do wasted demos kind of filtering out people who aren't serious, right? So I get both of those are kind of valid reasons. Um, one reason I'm kind of wary of getting people to do that in advance is that Ah, you're kind of filtering out people who, maybe like you haven't sold them enough yet. But they would be good customers, right? So you're not learning why people aren't putting in their credit card if it makes sense. Yeah, yeah. You know, learning how to how to find the right customer, you're just letting them kind of self select.

So you're ending up with customers, but you're not. You don't understand why they're customers. That's something I'd want to find out, kind of. In the end, you

get the deeper the solution is not get the credit card first. But the better solution is how can I get them to sign up after the demo? And how can I give better demos? And how can I? I have a better on boarding and sales process. That's really the bigger thing. Not not getting the credit card

right away, right? I mean, I have you asked the people who kind of folks I'd end up and didn't use it. Why? They didn't use it. Have you had any feedback from the metal? But why? They haven't

used yet People that signed up for people that give a demo.

So the people you gave a demo to who then didn't convert, But who you saw what we're gonna come for?

Well, I guess it's still like I mean, it's still so new. It's still been, like, three weeks. So it's been like that, just like a follow up, like a And now I'm gonna I'm gonna sign up. And then they assigned outside sent another email, so eventually I'll get that information. But, uh, there there are a few reasons that people didn't sign up. One of them, Why remember, Didn't have enough features.

Uh, in that personal, the top spot, another one waas, uh, again didn't have enough features that didn't have, like, really advanced relational database features. Um, yeah, and then otherwise, it's just like putting it off. Essentially,

begin writing.

One of the problems is like you said. It's a nice absolution. Like it doesn't, uh, like they can still live on Gina, right? They're different. They're using Gino now. It works. Now. This is an add on for Jean Hell. It's an extra thing. So I don't need e. I don't need to add it today, but I eventually want to, um, systemized more my sales process over cheap nails. That makes us I think that thing.

Right. Okay, on what did you do differently with the customers who did end up paying on using it?

Um well, in general, I've gotten a lot better at the demo process and just, you know, just you're learning and doing it over and over again. One thing that I did I started doing is asking the Utah honey does your advice. You gave me, uh, ask for a data set from them like there's this thing leaves in the spreadsheet or whatever and load up the demo account with their data. Try one thing that's also hard, like, I don't know exactly what they're use cases, they tell me, for example, uh, I want to use this to do outreach, so I can like,

I can give them a demo with how to do outreach. But I really want I, like, figure out what they re like their actual email work clothes. Because such an email work slow tool that I'd like to be able to like, Really show them and give them that moment where you're like, Wow, this is where I think the customers that really sign up for, like, the ones they see it working. And they're like, Oh, this is amazing. And other people, it's like I give him the I don't really know exactly what they do, so I just give them more of the general demo and maybe find a blast

on that. It sounds like when you get on the demo Oh, so you should be asking these questions about you know what? They're what they want to get out of it, why they need the product. All this cut myself. But a big thing that people tend to struggle with when they start doing more sales is towards the end of a demo, then closing, necessarily closing the deal by asking for money but putting them on this path to success. Right? So saying, basically having like, a line by line checklist where you say look, okay, you're trying to achieve this. The next step to do that is that you need to do this right, so you need to fill in these emails here.

When do you think you do that by great. Let's put that down. And then the next thing we're gonna try and do once you've got those emails in is we're gonna upload some contacts. I can help you do that. We'll do that at this date. And then the next thing is, you know, hopefully you'll get some soon. So much feedback from those people you're emailing by then, which is your goal on that's kind of your your test of your trial period, Whatever. That's what you're trying to do, right on dhe That gives you a really good excuse to check back in with them. If they're not doing it on, it makes them feel like they should be doing it on it because they're the ones you've said. Yet that seems feasible.

That seems reasonable. That's what we're trying to do on. It's always related to the gold they're tryingto trying to achieve. Right, right? Is it like something? Have you done that?

Is that Yeah, that's an amazing point. And I need Thio basically like what you're saying is have almost upon boarding plant a post on boarding plan like almost a checklist for them or and I'll give you an example. One that really did work Well, is this guy wanted? He's doing sales just kind of like classic cold emails with a pigeon. And I kept looking at his account and he wasn't using it wasn't

using it. So

I reached out to my I knew exactly what er be. He was trying to reach out to like charities.

So I have

my V A for like, a few a few bucks find, like, 30 charity friend put it in the spreadsheet, and I signed it over to him and said, Hey, you know, I have my V A find charities for you and I looked the next day you got him all loaded up with the fall watch and everything, and he's been using the products, I think, though,

right? Yeah, that's that's what I'm talking about, right? So but you have to have something you have to do in the demo right is to work out what, what they need to have exactly

be back with you. Sometimes I don't Maybe I don't feel like that safe. I'm working with someone who's like more advanced. I don't want to feel like I'm like telling them what to do. Sometimes. Sound weird.

Ah.

Hey, it's on my, like, for example, I I just had a demo with someone who runs a successful agency. He wants you to follow what he knows, what he's doing. Basically, right. It won't be like a what's your next step? Like Almost like a bigot. Them or some like that?

Yeah. I mean, you can frame it. In that case, you also frameless what would make this product to success for you, right? It's like, What do you hope? Like why? Why do you even want to take my call? What are you trying to achieve with this today? What would make this a success for you to keep using it in a month. And then you get kind of Okay, great drinking something quantifiable. So we get stoned. So much feedback, you can get out of interest. What would that look like?

Yeah, I think even just having that conversation at the end of the demos really smart because it provides, like, next steps because often kinds of my demo, the next up is just signed up like I said you signed up instructions that you signed up having like Yeah, it's really good idea.

You can be useful come to you. So and so I think that would probably solve some of the credit card problems for right now as well, right? Because I mean yeah, actually, even if you're asking them as part of that But in their credit card, at least they're framing that against you know, the next step to get these results is to put in your credit card, and after that, do this and then you'll get there. But Justo have it in context of

why you need to do that. That's really smart, because now I'm not thinking of someone who Well, I guess I never gave this guy John ball, but you put it off like, three weeks. We finally signed up today and basically just putting it off because, well, I think a lot of people put it off because they don't want to. They're not ready to start whatever process they're trying to do. Because sometimes I think that digitalis into aspirational product like I want to use this to make X better, or I want to now implement a new sales strategy or whatever. It is not solving a problem. Like what? Solving a problem. But it's not gonna be a current trouble. Maybe you're afraid that better. But

no, you know what you mean. I think a lot of people, especially when they have these kind of, like, sassy products you're selling to people who can you have? Someone in, Ah, in a boat that's sinking like filling up with water on there. So busy, kind of with a really small bucket throwing water out that they don't have time to. You know, unpack and use your new book that you're giving them. It's like, Yeah, this would be easier. But if I take half an hour that I don't have to unpack it, then it's just give me more work for me the and right, right? Uneven.

You've probably seen that, but I feel like that is sort of common for crn like Ah, hub spot or a sales force or whatever is like a similar. I mean, I'm telling you are essentially right. So

yeah, I think any people thio change and to use it is really difficult. But then the flip side of that is. Obviously, once people are using it, then it's very different, like it's very difficult to lose them there. So it's more work at the beginning. But assuming that they're still in business and still doing stuff, they're gonna be there for a long time. Which is the Miami

once, once they have the follow up in there and like every time they used to, you know, they see the CRN data like that long yet like you're saying as long as they're using it. It was Dr Lose

it. Yeah. So how could you test this, then? Like thinking I had, like, if we were to another call in two weeks, for example, you know, What would you say I wanted by this point, I wantto chief face, I want to prove this. I would have tried this. What would make it was something that in two weeks we could come back and talk about and see whether it works

or not. Well, I just need to flip The demos could be less about the demo

and more about

what you want to do with it, which is something that I'm trying to get better at, like listening Is that it showing. So to try to flip it on what you want to do with it. And I'd like to get to a point where they are using the product on a screen

share a

little bit more like that. Superhuman does it? I've been learning about how superhuman

does their call

boarding but high level just to change the questions could be about what you want to do with it and then having an action plan at the end.

Yes,

What if instead of saying like, Oh, you want to try it? I'm excited for you to try it. Just do what you will with it. Be more, have action steps

again. Yeah. I mean, if you can get them to a point, where is easy for them to log in after that demo on DDE, you start actually doing stuff like in the face of the blank slate. Then I think that could be C.

Yeah, yeah, I need Yeah, that's how getting after Yes, like you said, the next two weeks is improving the on boarding process and like that kind of goes hand in hand with taking credit cards in the beginning or at least taking a sign up in the beginning so that they could use it on the demo and have their data loaded up right now using a separate demo account to have their data loaded up. Have them off to Gmail again. Those air, like, kind of annoying steps because my Gina audit process and all that.

So you tweaked

on mourning process and just get better at demos. I think that's kind of the action plan for me.

Sounds good on. How would you like? How would you know if that's a success?

Um, I guess, Yeah, if they sign up immediately after the demo instead of two weeks after, maybe

right. Okay. I mean, he's super difficult because you're you're a pretty low volume, right? I mean, you have, you know, doing too many calls today, so I don't want you. Yeah. Even at this stage, what I'd say would be more of a success is just do I know for everybody who have had a demo with Do I, um, I getting it right. Like, um,

I do, I think if I think they're gonna sign up, do they end up signing up? If I think they're not gonna sign up. Do I know why not? Right, right. There's knowing where everybody is and what they're trying to do, you know, understanding kind of what it would take to get them to be successful. I think it is just as important at this

stage. Yeah, I think that's really good advice. Especially making it more about them and really trying to figure out because that was that was solved. My, uh, validation of the product problems to our, like, customer target problems. Like, really need to understand what you gonna do with this? Not just a cool tool. It's What? Are you gonna solve it? What can that's really solve?

Let's say you've got me on on on boarding or a demo or something for for pigeon. What do I have to do? Like, what action do I have to take? What do I have to see To make it really likely that I'm gonna log back in tomorrow on dhe. Use it properly. Is it enough that I just see some like some contacts in there, is it? Do I need to have, like, I assume that if I have a sequence already set up, that's working, like to e mails that I'm gonna come back in and keep using that. Right? But is there something less than that you can

get into how, man I wish I think like the harmonic.

I think. Yeah.

Um, I'm trying to figure that. I mean, I really do think that once you see automated follow ups working like you realize that a follow up is being sent. And you didn't do anything. Yeah, The big ah ha moment. Have a little bit harder to show that that's working. I need to figure out how to do that. Um, yeah. I don't know. That's why I need to figure

out all right. Yeah. Somethingto suddenly do it. All right? Yeah. You can just watch people and see the ones who are using it. What happens with them and the ones who who end up not using it. What? The difference is right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

So I don't want to take a much more your time, but I appreciate her help on the learning, figuring it all out. Pretty much so.

Yeah, it's exciting, but I mean, you're doing super well. You have, like, which is a 15 customers already

15 including me.

I'm paying customer the best customer. Customer number one. Okay, fair enough. Um, yeah. I mean that if they're all paying, then I mean, that's

yet, But, you know, I'm feeling that a couple of them are gonna turn, so

I'm not. Yeah, I mean, as long as you know why they're turning. I mean, they're the early days that happens, right? But I think that's what most beings people. I mean, 15 customers is super cool, but you still I think a lot of people when they move in disaster for the first time, they don't realize how how hard it's gonna be on Tao. Yeah, 15 customers. It's really amazing. And it's a good inflection point, like going from you or the 10 customers, but at the same time is like revenue. Eyes like you're not buying cars. Yeah,

well, I'll just say just the end of that, it's really cool to do the direct sales process because I would have leave come in and I always have meeting and not really gonna change. There's a really great way. Two. Get feedback on the product. Changed the product, pivot if necessary. Like all that is possible. Just have this constant. You have, like constant feedback on your product, where it would be really hard to do it without talking to customers. And I got everyone like talked, your customers, doctor customers with men like you actually realized what that means when you actually are talking to customers. So I think it's cool. Just have that, like going for me at least.

Yeah, for sure. And the nice thing is, now they're kind of a bit further in. You're also seeing with customers like who? Maybe we'll turn, for example, who aren't you or who aren't using it. You're starting to see. Oh, I should have asked this. So next time you talk to your customers, Joel, or next time you talk to potential customers, you'll ask them different questions. Better questions. And eventually you'll have that kind of that kind of you'll know what you need to ask in the demo.

But it takes a while together, right? Yeah, because you'll you'll learn from experience from mistakes. Um, yeah, that's cool. So I know you have to run in a couple of minutes side. I want to keep you any longer, but thank you for being my my coach and guinea pig. Um, working people go and find out more about pigeon and start a story. And

you, Yeah, you can go to ah, get the search Pat Walls. Twitter. And then in my bio, you can see length, toe started story, pigeon, YouTube, all that so that the

stick it in the show notes as well. They can go over there and they can get straight in. But they can get in all of those demos with you and see how you practice your stuff on them.

Yeah. Yeah, I'll be you be my guinea pig. I appreciate that.

Awesome. Oh, thanks a lot. But I have a great

day. All right. Thank you.

Do it. That's all. Thanks for listening to this special trial episode off something different of office hours for the sales. We found this podcast if you liked it. If you didn't like it, if you have some feedback and how it could be improved, shoot me an email. Louis at sale to founders dot com. I'd love to hear your thoughts on Dhe. If you're interested in maybe being one of the 3 to 4 founders who take part in these recorded coaching office our sessions over the next couple of months. Then make sure to sign up for the early bird waitlist at sales of founders dot com on Try and Do That before Wednesday. The 23rd Remember 2019 to make sure that you get the email with the invite that will be going out then. Thanks for listening, Andi. Have a great week.