Johnny. I'm really excited about this episode because I can say with 100% honesty that our guest changed our lives. That is right. He certainly did. And the way he goes and puts these lessons and parables just makes it enjoy to read his books. His business books are hands down the books that I recommend two friends because they're so easy to read and so impactful. In fact, his book Five Dysfunctions of a Team changed our team and helped us make major decisions with business partner. So we're so excited to have him on the show today. This is the Arctic Charm podcast to show where we bring you actual tips and strategies and howto supercharge or social skills and turn small talk in the smart talk, surrounding yourself with an army of high status individuals to grow your social capital. Imagine having a mix of experienced mentors teaching you their expertise, packing decades of research, testing and tough lessons into a concise curriculum each and every week. That's what we do here at the Arctic Charm. I'm A J and I'm Johnny. Last month we dropped a free training to help you discover your core values.

That's right. We have a lot of successful people on the show over the last 13 years. Kobe Bryant, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tim Phares, David Gaga, Gary V. Just the name a few. And what do they all have in common? They live a value driven life that's helped them reach their incredible successes. They define their values, channel them daily and communicate them clearly to everyone. Which is why when you think about those, guess you know exactly what their life is about. So we put together a free training to help you do exactly that. Video one is all about defining those core values once and for all.

Video to is about living those values on an everyday basis, and video three teaches you how to communicate them. So check out the absolutely free training at the Arctic charm dot com slash panda. That's panda as the panda Bear, p a N d. A or Text panda toe. 16785067543 Again go right now for this free training before we take it down at the art of charm dot com slash panda or Tex P. A N D a toe. 16785067543 Thank you, everyone for tuning in. Let's kick off the show today. We're talking with Patrick Lynch, Tony. He's the author of a great many books that educate leaders on how to make their organizations healthier and not just in terms of profit, but in terms of fostering a cooperative work environment. Now,

if you're thinking well, I'm not in a leadership position. This isn't for me. A. J will don't hit the skip button just yet. What we're discussing with Patrick are life skills are gonna help you become a high value person and whatever role you're in in your work life or social life, his books, like The Five Dysfunctions of a Team, are incredible bestsellers as well as the ideal team player, which has had a huge influence on the way we do things here at the art of charm. He has a great new book out the motive. Why so many leaders abdicate their most important responsibilities and we loved it. Thank you for joining us, Pat. We're excited to have you on the show. Johnny and I are huge fans of yours and,

in fact, one of your books. The five dysfunctions of a team changed our business trajectory, and it was actually recommended to us by a former business partner who wanted us to learn some lessons and potentially kick someone out of the company that he was unhappy with. And funny enough, we read the book through some self reflection, realized our own dysfunction, started working on them, and he actually was the only one who refused to work on his dysfunction and were forced to get rid of him in a very wild way. But obviously, over the years we've interviewed tons of people have written business books and your book still stand above, and what's so fascinating to me is the format of choosing parables to share these lessons. How did you decide one to really dig in the leadership and change businesses and then to write in a format that is so different from other business books out there?

You know that I love the question, and I think both of them go back to me being a little kid in Bakersfield, California, where I grew up and two things happened, one and probably about the same age. I'm guessing it was like when I was eight or nine years old. So my dad, who I loved, God rest his soul. He would come home from work and complain about management and his company. I didn't know what that meant, but my dad was a great guy. Was successful what he did. But he was always, ah, little angst. It aboutthe way management treated him.

And I remember going, I love my dad. I don't know what management is. I'm not even sure what that word means, but I don't think people should come home from work frustrated. And I also watched The Waltons, which was a TV show you guys might be able to young for the Wallace. He probably seen it on, like TV land or something. And, um, it was a show about this guy who's a writer. And the show was framed him writing in his journal about this family back in the West Virginia or something in the early 19 hundreds of late 18 hundreds. And I remember thinking, I don't know what a writer is exactly, but I like what that guy does,

and I want to do that one day too, so fast forward through the rest of my life. I was always interested in writing, and I was like I kept noticing the my dad's business thing. I go to college down in Los Angeles where you guys are from, and I took a screenwriting class my senior year. I think much to my father's chagrin cause like you should study accounting and computers and and But I was really interested, and I got my first job as a management consultant. I moved up here to San Francisco area, and I remember going to work and helping these companies and thinking they don't get it. It's about the human things. They're really smart and they're failing because they don't know how to talk to each other and organize themselves and have honest conversations. And I would say that and the other people at the firm would go. We don't get paid to do that. That's not what we do. Just crunched the numbers,

and it was at that time that I said That's what I want to do and and then fast forward. Probably five years later, I came up with the management theory. Based on these CEOs, I was watching. I know I didn't have my own firm yet, and I came up with this theory and somebody said, You need to write a book about that theory because that really works. And I thought, Man, I don't want to write a one of those business books that nobody really reads cause I never finished the business books. I read the 1st 2 chapters like, Okay, flip through it and be done. So I said, I'm going to write a story that people will actually enjoy reading.

They'll get the theory through it. They'll finish it because they're gonna want to know how it ends. And maybe they'll actually learn more that way. And so I did that. You should just know I didn't have a publisher. I didn't know anybody was gonna read this, but I loved writing so much that I did that and it struck a chord with people. And then the publishers had write another book, and I kept thinking, I think I'm done and then I come up with, like, Wait a second. I just noticed this other thing. And so that's why I write fiction because of John Boy Walton and my screenwriting class, and I love to write dialogue and my interest in in this whole idea of management and culture comes from the fact that when I went into the working world, nobody was paying attention to the what I thought was the most important thing. So that's a long answer to a short question. I hope that's

okay. Oh, I think one of the things that makes the parables work so well is because it's a story, all the characters. There's, I guess, for lack of a better word. This just seems like there's an innocence about them because it's a story. It's a parable so that you're able to then see yourself in each one of these characters. If it's going to be, you know, Kevin Cruises leadership book, then you're you're automatically see yourself as a certain role, and you're sort of rigid in that idea of who you are in your place in your business, where the parables are their fund, the characters seem innocent, and because it's fun, you can mix and match, and I think that's the beauty of it, and that's why it works well.

I love what you said because I write the characters so that they're relatable, the bad. If there's a bad character, if you will, yeah, you feel for you feel for him and you identify with me. If there's a character, he, he or she has flaws, and you can relate to them. And I love what you said because it's not like I'm just that person. I'm the good character and I'm not preaching to people that way. I'm saying human beings are inherently messy and flawed and well intentioned, and so unlike, Ah, Marvel comic book or this is evil and this is good. I'm trying to say we human beings are messy,

and I love when people read my books and they'll go, Oh my gosh, the troubled character. Is that what I can relate to? I need to change my career And so so what you said is exactly right. I want people to relate to it. The fiction I write we call him parables and fables. But there there, it's kind of edgy, and we want people to go. Yeah, I've heard that same comment in a meeting. I can relate to that. It's not like a genie flies out of a computer and gives you advice. You know, these air like real people having real conversations. And my most recent book is the edgiest one I've written so far. I think

so. You got us hanging on the edge of our seats. What is this grand theory of management that you cracked the code with and led to the writing of these books?

Okay, so I think the best way to describe it is this. You guys, there's two things that people need to be successful in the business. One is you have to be smart. That's intellectual stuff. Like Do we have the right strategy? Are we in the right business? We have the right marketing. Do we have the right technology, all that stuff? On the other hand, you also have to be healthy. Which means do we have the right culture? Is there cohesiveness among the leaders? Are we clear? Forget if we have a right answer.

Are we on the same page around an answer. Do we communicate enough with each other and with with the people in the organization, and have we put just enough structure in place to keep all this together? So it's smart and it's healthy. 95% of the attention that most leaders given Cos. If not 99 is around smart. That's what business schools teach. That's what The Wall Street Journal and the Harvard Business Review focuses on this. What do I know? The healthy side, Which is the behavioral? Does it? Is this functional? Are we honest? Do we wrestle with decisions? It affects the smart stuff.

It's not touchy feely, but without the health of an organization, you don't get to tap into most your smarts. You know, one of the many companies we get to work with and I'm very fortunate is Southwest Airlines. They are not smarter than Delta and United and Continental. Whatever. They've all merged and stuff, they're healthier. And as a result of that, they make smarter decisions. So really analytical people will go well. They were brilliant in the way they did that. Well, I know the executives. They sit around a room and they have honest conversations,

and they say, What should we do here? And because they're transparent because they're honest and because they're willing to go there. They look a lot smarter than people who probably have Higher IQ's and S a T score hers and G p A's from better schools and the people at Southwest. Just keep it simple, because there have a real culture so smart and healthy. And what I said is we have to help companies become healthier. They're all smart. In this era of ubiquitous information on the Internet, everybody knows enough. I've never you guys, I've never gone into a company and walked away and thought, These leaders are just too dumb. Never. I've never said, man, they're dumb because in this day and age, everybody knows enough. I walk into many and say they're too dysfunctional to tap into that knowledge.

I love that, and one of the things in our work and us doing some do some new corporate training and just with how prevalent ideology is now is that all companies have this culture, and a lot of times people don't even think about it. It's like an after bit where therm primary objective is to get hired by said company Google or Facebook or whatever. And it's like Have you ever thought if you would fit in there with your temperament and I'm like, Well, that doesn't matter I'll figure that out once I'm in. It's like, No, I don't think you understand because this culture possibly could go against your temperament. And if that's the case, you are not going to have a good time. And no matter how hard you might try, you're not going to be able to fit. And in fact, every day is going to be frustrating to you.

Yes, so I'll tell you a story about how I went to that lesson. And I have two boys. They're seniors in college. They're getting ready to join the work force this summer. And so I tell them about this in their friends, too. And Granite Recruiters and College is trying to play up the company name and whether you and all that kind of stuff, which is so dumb. So when I was, ah, a couple of years out of college, I got a job offer from a company of it. I won't name a company, but it remind it rhymes with shma oracle, OK, and so some guys wanted to hire me there,

and so everybody that got a higher there at the time. There's only a couple 1000 employees of time had the interview with the same guy there, and his job was to see if you were a cultural fit. So the people that wanted to hire me there prepped me for the interview so I could fake it. Oh, boy, and get through the interview because the culture there was, we got to make sure these people are appropriately confident and cocky, and they're not afraid to deal with internal politics and even kind of like rudeness. So they prepped me. I went into the interview, I faked it. I got through and I was like, Man, I'm glad they told me that. And then I was like,

Wait, I have to work here now So I lasted 2.5 years. They were painful. They turned out to be productive because I learned a lot about company culture. But I thought, Why would you want to fake it? That would be like saying, Should I marry this woman? Well, she doesn't like who I am. Somebody tell me what she really likes. I'll fake it. Then we'll get married. Wait, I have to live with her. It's like we should really ask ourselves,

Do I want to work in that company culture. And not every company is for everyone, though. And just because it's famous or makes a lot of money doesn't mean it's a good fit for you. Johnny,

can you believe we've been in business for 14 years now? No, I can't. And the single greatest challenge we've had over all of those 14 years has been hiring absolutely one of the toughest things that any business owner goes through. And that's why I love our sponsor, Zip recruiter, because they actually make hiring easy. And they're helping out our listeners at zip recruiter dot com slash charm. According to ZIP Recruiter Research, nearly 3/4 of employers say that they're finding it difficult to fill open positions. I got agree of them and Zip Recruiter has your back. They send your job over 100 of the Web's leading job sites, and they don't just stop there with their powerful matching technology, Zip Recruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invite them to apply for your job. Here's the part that I love. You can add screening questions to your job listening so you can filter candidates and focus on the best ones. Zip Recruiter is so effective that four out of five employers who post on Zip recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day and right now to try Zip recruiter for free,

our listeners could go to zipper cruder dot com slash charm that zip recruiter dot com slash c h a r m zipper cooter dot com slash charm. Zip Recruiter The smartest way to hire You know, Johnny at the end of a long workday, it can be difficult to wind down and get relaxed. And that's why I've really been enjoying our latest sponsor, Harrelson Zone, and they're CBD. In fact, just a few sprays at night allows me to zonk out stress free. It's interesting you should say that A. J A. C V. D. Is wildly popular right now and make sure you're choosing the organic room. Reliable brands such as Harrelson Zone Harrelson Zone is a mint and vanilla aural spray that's formulated to provide full mind and body benefits, which helps you feel more calm,

focused and collected. Nana, a most ified technology, absorbs immediately, so you begin to feel the effects in the matter of minutes I've incorporated on my nighttime routine. It's so easy and it just allows me to sleep. It's organic and fairly priced, which we love, and they have a great informative video on their Web site. You won't feel high, just more calm and stable. To check out the video and free shipping, go to harrelson zone dot com slash charm Today for free shipping, that's harrelson zone dot com slash charm. That's a J r r e l s o N s o W n dot com size charm A lot of us don't realize how much that culture influences us later in our careers. So this Bill's Hartner that we were frustrated with,

you know, he came from a finance background and I remember him telling a story of Hey, guys, I was in a meeting where I had a binder chucked at my head because I miscalculated some numbers, and that's why I have this aggression towards you. And we're like, but we don't want that In our culture, we don't want anyone throwing anything. We wanna be ableto have open dialogue without fisticuffs, and he's like, but this is how I worked before, and this is now my culture. So it imprints especially, You know, seniors in college people who are just starting out in their career, that environment that nature nurture. Certainly your temperament comes in, but you're gonna fit in to that culture, and you're gonna take on the good parts and you're also gonna take on the warts,

you know, when? So my first job was with a management consulting firm called Bain and Company, which is very high end, but it was it was kind of brutal. I will tell you. They through like 20 of us college grads, said you've won the lottery. Here is your job. You're gonna make a lot of money. But you're gonna work all the time and you're gonna compete with one another, and eventually we're gonna weed it down to like, six of you, which sucked. And then I went to Oracle when I realized Oh, this isn't for me. And I had that experience.

Then I got hired by a company, A technology. It was actually had a really good culture. The founders were really kind and they were customer focused, and they they said, You don't have to defend yourself against other people. We work together. But the founder of the coming said, But we're gonna have to detox you pat way. No, you're gonna like it. But you were gonna have to teach you that. You don't have to watch your back. You don't have to guard what you're going to say. You could be transparent and open, and it's gonna work fine.

And it was wonderful once I got used to it. But you're right, my 1st 2 company. And by the way, that's why I'm in this business. Thank the Lord that I did it. My 1st 2 companies were crazy cultures, and that taught me that culture matters and the culture is not some esoteric thing. It's really what is the founder and what of the leaders believe and how do they run the organization? So that's that's how I got in the business. So even though they were painful, I'm I thank God for it.

So a lot of our audience is a little bit younger in their career. They're hoping to move into that leadership role to it, really influence culture. What tips do you have? Our strategies? Do you have to find the right culture fit when you are being recruited and they are putting on the show to get you to come on board because we all know that these companies, when they're in their recruiting efforts, they're not necessarily being honest about their culture.

Absolutely, in fact, that they have to market themselves as all things to all people if they're. If it's a good company, though, the very best companies and it's not black and white or binary. But the very best companies are not afraid to market what they really are like Southwest Airlines. How I first got involved with them as we help them codify their culture. They already had a great culture. But they said, If you have a servant's heart and a warrior spirit and a fun loving, self deprecating attitude, you're gonna be a good fit here. But if you don't, please don't come to work here, you're gonna hate it, and we're probably not gonna enjoy you very much.

So when they interview people, they actually push you to see, like, one of things Southwest dozes years ago they would hire, they would bring in pilots for interviews, and these are some very buttoned down there flying planes worth $100 million and they would make them change halfway through the interview into shorts, khaki shorts in their suit and some of the pilots ago. This is juvenile. I'm out of here and they go Okay. Yeah. See if you can't laugh at yourself and have some fun, you're not gonna fit here where other companies are saying. What do you believe in? Yeah, we believe in that too. Don't.

If a company can't tell you what they're not and they don't really have a real perspective, they're probably looking at you as as a commodity. And they're trying to convince you. Find out what great question, but who would not be a good fit here. And I don't mean, like, will they be mean and rude? And I mean, like, what person with good qualities wouldn't fit in here. And what's interesting is when I go back to Oracle, even though it wasn't for me, have they just said Hey, listen, it's pretty political here.

It's a pretty competitive internally. If it would bug you. If somebody who you think is on your team actually stab you in the back a little bit, then you If you don't have a stomach for that. You probably shouldn't work here because that's just kind of how it ISS. We believe in a kind of ah, it's a little bit of Lord of the Flies here. Well, I'm not a lot. That would have been a beautiful thing to say and the right people would've gone. Yes, bring it on. And so I guess if a company cannot be honest about the challenges of their culture, then you probably know something's wrong. It's like if you went on a date and said, Well,

tell me your worst qualities and they say, Well, I'm just so conscientious and loving that sometimes that, you know, it's like No, no, Tell me your worst qualities. If a person doesn't know what they're worst qualities are they probably It's a red flag,

you know, This reminds me a bit about the personal we're speaking about, as he was coming from that culture had what he wanted the implement, or at least it seemed to be the way our Monday morning meetings were going was he wanted to have a round table discussion of game of Thrones and what happened and the playing on the Valley Inn strategizing politicking. We don't. This is why we're not interested in They're not interested in this and in fact, like for myself. And as you were just stating about about working in that environment like I know for myself, I wanted to be obsessed and put all of my attention on what I'm doing and the and the work and the results that I am trying to get, not have to look to see who is trying to pull the rug out from under me as well. Actually, I mean and granted, there are people who seriously thrive in that, Um and that's great. But you certainly we didn't need it in our pod because, well, one of the other strategies that my fiance Amy has taught me is reaching out to the people who did your role at that company but moved on in their career.

You can find them on linked in there, easy to get a hold of now and ask, Why'd you leave and just understand what? Well, I got more money at Facebook. That's one thing. Or you know what? I hated working weekends. I hated that. They demanded 14 hour days even though they told me when I started that I'm gonna be able to travel on, it's great. You can get that feedback from the people who left your role. They will tell you right most of the time on a linked in message. Well, this is what I didn't like.

What we need to be able to say is, hey, if if you like that, then you definitely shouldn't work here because we're not like that. We're not judging you and saying you're a bad person But we are saying you're a bad fit for what we're trying to do. Alan Mulally was the guy the CEO who turned the Ford Motor Company around here a few years back. Amazing story like took over the D. M. V of automotive stuff. I didn't take any money from the government, change the culture. Now they're struggling again because he's been gone for a while. But the point is, he would go to people in the company and say, This is the new culture. I really like you and this is how we're gonna do this. And if they were violated,

he'd go up to them and say, Hey, you know, you're violating the culture and that's okay. We could still be friends. But if you keep doing that, you just shouldn't work here because it's not gonna be good for you. And he had to fire very few people in turning that company. A ton of people left not because he sat in a dark room and decided who to fire and who to keep or who he should, because he just confronted them about. That behavior is not okay, and you have a choice to make the Machiavellian stuff. You can shed that or you can lean into that and go someplace that appreciates it. But we don't That shouldn't be a controversial conversation. That's actually an act of love to help that person avoid misery and yourselves.

And that is an important lesson that I actually took from the book. If I dysfunctions because I realized that myself that I had this fear of conflict and because I was the leader of the group when there were these cultural issues, because I was afraid of having conflict over it. They festered and they continued to grow in the company, and then everyone was frustrated. So let's unpack for the audience what the's five dysfunctions are because what I love about them and now is Johnny said, that we've been doing corporate training. You see these patterns over and over and over again, and we all think we're special Snow Flakes and O Our culture's different or our company's unique. But then you start looking and you're like, Wait a second, I'm a dysfunction. There's dysfunction. Okay, what can we do to fix

it? The first dysfunction on a team is the lack of trust, which sounds very obvious. But that's just our people on the team capable of being vulnerable in ST I don't know the answer. I think I screwed up. I need your help. You're actually smarter than I am at this. Can you teach me how to do that? Or I'm sorry I was a jerk yesterday. Can they be emotionally butt naked? Trust is a function of knowing that the people sitting around the table are not gonna hide strengths or weaknesses, mistakes, successes, that they're going to come to the table and sit down and go. Okay. I need your help, or I'm worried.

I'm worried about some. They're going to be honest You can't trust somebody who can't be honest about who they are, warts and all. So that's the first dysfunction. And that's one of the most important things we do with executive teams. Leadership teams, teams of any kind is we teach them how to be vulnerable to each other, Talk about who you are and you know what they find when they do that. It's like, so liberating there. Like you mean I can come to work and be fully myself? No, you have to be fully yourself, because if you're not, people are gonna know how to act around you. So that's the 1st 1 Trust the next one.

And trust enables the next one, which is, if you trust each other, then and only then can you overcome the next dysfunction, which is the fear of conflict. Conflict on a team. Now, that doesn't mean they're throwing binders at each other. It means they if they disagree about anything important, they say so and whether they're in Italian and Irish, it like me and they wave their hands in the ER, or whether they're culturally Japanese or New York or L. A. You know, every culture but they're they're not holding back there saying I disagree and here's why. And it's if we're if we're uncomfortable,

that's okay because we're pursuing the right answer or the truth, and that's good. But remember, you have to trust each other because if you don't trust each other, you're not vulnerable. Conflict is bad, then it becomes politics. So the 1st 1 is the lack of trust. The next one is the fear of conflict. Conflict allows us to overcome the third dysfunction, which is the the lack of commitment. People aren't going to commit to a decision if they didn't debate it. So if the three of us were sitting here and we run a business and we have to decide, are we gonna open a new office or launch a new podcast or whatever else? The Onley way for us to get to the point where we leave that meeting on the same page is if we push back on each other and we really air our differences and people think they're doing a good thing on a team when they don't have conflict, what they're doing is they're making it impossible for people to commit, So the inability. Their unwillingness to commit is the 3rd 1

And I and I love this because what you were saying with this commitment of there should be some push pull the best argument should when everyone should come in and bring their idea in and through that there will be a decision, mate. And then everybody if they've been heard. And if they've given their best argument and we've all chosen through this meeting what our commitments going to be, then we can all say that it was a successful meeting. We can all leave going. I know what the plan is that I'm

good with the play. Exactly. But in that case, the way you just describe that in order to engage in that conflict, though, and make it productive, you have to be vulnerable enough to to say maybe I'm wrong. Oh, yeah, you're right. Oh, that's a great point. I hadn't thought of that, but when a person comes to a meeting and says all engaging conflict and I will defend my answer and I will try to convince you regardless, there's no trust there that you're like. I don't trust that they're vulnerable enough to admit that I may have a better idea than

we actually had fake commitment because we would end these meetings. Everyone would be on one page and then a few months would go by Noble a few weeks even. And we'd find herself having the same argument over again, confronted with the same reasons that we already said, We're not reasons. And at that point, everyone else on the team can't commit because they're like, Well, wait a second. I don't know what direction I need to be rowing in, because every time I thought we had commitment, I'm in another meeting where we're debating this again. Now it's one thing to come with new data. New facts. Okay, we're at biggest year. Conversion is there we're seeing from customers,

or feedback is this. But to just stick to your guns, wait until there's another opening in a couple meetings and then blast. This is Johnny says, play the same licks on the guitar. I have this this analogy that I use because I'm a musician in my life. Before all this and with the Arctic charm was playing in bands and all, you look like you were in a band now I get it. And when we would all come in with different riffs and ideas for for new tunes and you would hash them out in the room in the best ones one now I had. But there was always one guy who I, who a week after week, would bring in this same tired riff. But it's like, Listen, for the last three weeks, we've jammed on that.

It hasn't went anywhere and quit forcing this rift. At least go home and try to change it up a bit. But they come in here with the same riff after we've already voted no several times. This is just redundant. And why are you trying to bully us in two just for us? If you this idea that you just keep bringing it up enough that will eventually just gave Cave in which waas Exactly. The issue that we were having with our business partner and I had brought up this this analogy, the age I was like, I have dealt with this before. This guy's waiting for us to just give up cave. Yeah,

and that's why an INEC situation like that. What you have is a person who's not vulnerable enough to say to celebrate like Hey, I'm wrong. Yeah, you guys were right. Hey, this riff sucks, You know, I mean, that is a sign of if if a person can't celebrate when they're wrong and celebrate when somebody shows them a better idea, that's a sign that they're not trustworthy because they're not vulnerable. They're insecure, and that's a deal breaker.

Well, one of something else to go along with that is when you are able to admit defeat or that you've been better to. The rift that your buddy has brought in is now rock in the room, and it's like when you can admit that and realize I have some work to do. So I'm gonna go home and refine the things that I was working on. I certainly know for myself that there was a freeing moment of not having to be right all the time and that collective operating yes, it is so liberating, and it's like, Why wouldn't everyone else want this as well? However, it just shows you just how scared they are inside and how insecure and what what they're working through on with themselves or not working through to prohibit themselves from allow from allowing themselves to do that.

So let's go back now and do this. The fourth and fifth dysfunction. So we talked about trust enables conflict. Conflict enables commitment. The reason why Really commitment, not fake commitment like Okay, I'll go along with it, but I don't really agree. I mean, like we've had it out, I get it. We might not have agreed completely, but the leader broke the tie, and I understand why we're doing this. I'm in. I'm in that enables the next and most difficult thing a team has to do, which is to hold people accountable.

When you see somebody later on doing something that's not quite right here. They're backing off on that decision or their deviating from it or their behavior just isn't a line with what we're talking about. That's when a team has to be able to say, Hey, dude, what's going on? That's not what we agreed on. That's the hardest thing for teams do. And let me just tell you it's an act of love to say to somebody in your band like Hey, you keep missing that that beat Some people say How can you say that to them? It's like because I love him and I love the band and I got to tell him, and if someone an executive on your team or a team member in your workspace is doing something that's not in line with what you're doing, the best thing to do isn't go to the boss and wrap them out quietly and say, Don't tell me, Is this to go? Hey,

I thought we agreed on this. What's going on, man? And they go, Well, thanks for telling me. I guess I'm kind of confused. Help me out. Sure, the best teams in the world do this. I love when I see a basketball team or a football team and a player goes to the other guys and goes my bad. That was on me

and this is what you were talking about earlier. It's having good intentions and understanding and assuming that other people have good intentions, right, that's where the love comes from. It's like I'm holding you accountable because we agreed on it and I know you're not doing anything nefarious. You you're trying and I just want to make sure we're all trying on the

same page. Exactly. This is by far the lowest score. We have an online team assessment. People taken, they get back the triangle with all the colors on it, green, yellow or red. This is the lowest average score because it's one thing for people to do all this when it comes to that moment where you go, Oh, I have to go tell them it's not good enough. You know, we have a We did a podcast recent called That's Not Good enough. Those are the four words that people have to say to one another, more at work. It's not a mean thing, like Oh,

but that's not good enough. But people don't like to do that. No, people don't like to sew, so that's accountability. That's the fourth dysfunction in the final dysfunction is just what we call the inattention to results. So it's the lack of accountability and then the inattention to results. Sometimes you have people on a team, and the collective results of the team aren't really that important. It's just like I kind of want my department to do well, you know, in a band would be like my guitar solo looked pretty good. I don't care if the song is good, but I look good and it's like we have to say No, no, no.

We are all about the collective good of the organization and the team. And too often you'll have a team member who is really all about my department and my staff and my budget. And it's like, No, no, no. It's got to be the collective good of the team so that dysfunctions are the overcoming that dysfunctions, air, build, trust, engage in conflict, really commit to decisions, hold each other accountable, focus on the collector results of the team. And it might sound simple, but it takes work

and for us. So we were given the book, All of us in the leadership.

Yeah, I want to hear about this. This is wild.

And it was one of those moments where Johnny and I read the book and it was such a great read, and we put it down, and immediately we started seeing so stuff in ourselves. So it raised myself wearing right. I did not immediately, for whatever reason, and I'm I know that people do this because this is where the other business partners lied. I was like, Wow, you know what? My inability to deal with conflict is leading the team astray, and because of that, we don't have this commitment. I need to work on this. And Johnny came the ability. Hee Hee is like, Hey,

you know what? I now see that there are dysfunctions here and I want to do better. Meanwhile, the guy who bought us the books, the business partner who bought us the books and handed us the books, sad the meeting and called everyone else out on their dysfunction. Yeah, and we're sitting there going. I don't think that's how the book was supposed to go like, let's let's commit to working on improving everybody. And he used it as an opportunity to sort of bully people, and we had to make a tough decision to let him go, not a cultural fit. And that's the other thing that I think is for me in running the company and through my twenties and thirties now has been a really important lesson. It's like it doesn't mean that person's terrible worker, terrible person.

They're just not a good fit for this team. You have skills. You have talents. You're gonna go on to do amazing things. But what this team is focused on, what the culture we're striving for is what our goals are there, not in alignment. That's something. Also,

What is gonna be better off? You're gonna be better.

Oh, yeah. You know something else I want to bring up? There were several people involved, and what's funny about this is even going over this. Now it's all coming back to me, and I'm laughing because the two people who decided, Oh, here's where we can both grow is still here. And everyone else He was just freaking out or not to no gun and part of this. So this this idea of getting commitment and having some conflict and everyone putting their ideas on the table Well, one person left because they saw it is a J. And I arguing. But they didn't see it is working through to get the best ideas. And of course, so that person is gone. And the other person was Well,

this is all great is good as long as you're all following along my ideas. Right? Okay, well, that's how this works either it's so now. You know, all these years later, it's like Well, yeah, but what is also great about this? And as I was mentioning earlier about how liberating this is, you know a lot of these things with getting trust and and having Cem Cem the bet, looking for the best ideas and then and then having to commitment after working that out of which one's the best and having accountability to see these ideas through and then looking at the results that is so much fun. And, uh, it's like,

Oh, this is how this works. And how could you not get excited about working in an environment like that and that this is what I wanted to discuss now? And this is what's so key. It's like, OK, the realization huge. But this is fixable to everything we're talking about here can be improved. So what advice do you have for someone who's in a leadership position who has now realized that they are these dysfunctions on the team, they're part of it. There are other team members who are part

of it. Well, no matter what you think your issues are, and if you were to take the team assessment and you were to get green on trust and read on all the others. Start with trust. So whatever you think it is, anything you can do to build trust and so like. So here's the Here's the exercises we actually use. You could go do these things right now. The first thing we do is like baby steps on vulnerability. We will sit around with an executive team. I do it with the executives of 1,000,000,000 multi $1,000,000,000 companies and startups, and I do with my kids. You know, lacrosse team. You know any organs? Eight churches,

everybody else. I take it the leaders together and I say, Tell us who you are and here's what I mean by that. Tell us where you grew up, how many kids were in your family and where you were in that order. And what was the most difficult challenge of your childhood or not. Your inner child had just being a kid and, like, 15 minutes later, cause it goes fast, everybody is sitting there having just said, you know, here's write her up and we were really poor or my dad died when I was young or we moved all the time. Whatever else, They all have amazing stories. And then I'm like,

how many people knew all this? How many people learn something new and every hand goes up and go? I worked with you for four years. I've never heard any of this. And all we've done is help them realize a little bit of vulnerability is actually a comforting thing. Suddenly, they're kind of admiring each other, going Wow, I had no idea you went through that as get this is amazing. And then we go, Okay, let's go a little deeper. Now let's take a tool like the Myers Briggs. We go really fast. Let's figure out what your personality is. No judgment,

cause they're all good. You know, you're all wired the way God meant wired you. It's all good. And we have I did this with 1913 year olds. Other day my wife was with me. She'll do their Myers Briggs, and I'm like, I can't do their Myers Briggs. Look out for him. These kids were reading their one page type going. I'm an E M T P. It's as I'm moving from one project to another and I don't finish. And it's like everybody in the room. The coach was taking pictures of the book. The kids were like laughing and talking about it.

Suddenly, everybody in the room is now going. Oh, I know your strengths. I know your weaknesses. Can we call you a man?

They're like, of course, this

is who I am. So in a matter with an executive team, in a matter of like two hours, they are having conversations about one another's relative strengths and weaknesses and inviting it and feeling like they're helping each other. Where is if they had done that the day before? It would have felt judgmental, and it would have felt risky. So we allow them to be more vulnerable and do trust in a safe way. And then we teach them how to have conflict. So if you could just start with trust and just say, Now, tell me your conflict profile on one person as well. When I was a kid, we used to fight all the time. Another one says, Well, I never saw my parents argue well in my in my country to disagree with authorities,

and then we go, okay, Let's talk about how we're gonna meet in the middle here and figure out have a good way of it. You can do this in three hours. A team can develop much greater trust and start to engage in conflict that we have a book called Overcoming the Five Dysfunctions of a Team. So I wrote the five dysfunctions, and then we wrote a book called Overcoming the Five Dysfunctions, which essentially gives you all of the tools we use and the exercises from our consulting practice. And a manager can go out and do that on their own. And this assessment that you mentioned the assessment. You can find out a website it table group dot com, and you get the results right as soon as every figures it out, fills it out, which takes, like 25 minutes. If that yeah,

lesson that, then they get the results back and they sit down around a table and they look at their scores and it shows you which questions people filled like gave low scores and they go, Oh, clearly we have to talk about these three things and it's really liberated, like Wow, we know that, But why did we never identify that? So that team assessment and we've had almost half a 1,000,000 people do this assessment and itjust tees up exactly the right conversation, and it helps him understand. Is it trust that we're struggling with our conflict or all these things? So there's some things you can do in short order to really improve the team building trust and and making a team better does not take months and years. It takes days and

weeks. I know for me after reading the book and realizing work that I need to do it myself, going back to that trust piece that the first thing I started doing was being open and honest with the team about my own mistakes as a leader, decisions that I made that were wrong, things that I thought we could do that I could improve on, and immediately. It totally changed the way the meetings were run in the communication that was happening in the meetings. And it's so easy as a leader toe look at everyone else's mistakes and be like, Why is this person not performing? Why are they doing this? And it's so difficult to say this is where I screwed up because you're you're the leader and everyone looks to you. And you don't think about the flipside of. If I'm not holding myself accountable on being vulnerable about these issues, then of course, no one else wants to talk about it and be open about their mistakes. And, of course, these mistakes, they're gonna fester. They get swept under the rug until they explode in terrible results for the company,

you know, and I will tell you, and it is It's an amazingly liberating thing. Is a leader to go because we tell people, don't let him see a sweat, you know, like the deodorant commercial like you always have to be on. And And the truth of the matter is, they know you're sweating before you. D'oh! They know. So the best leaders of the ones that raise their arm up and point out there are men. Go check this out and people go. So you know, And then of course I know, you know I know. And I'm like,

Okay, I trust you. Let's talk about this. I will tell you this as your getting ready. You're you're engaged as a parent. I've learned that acknowledging when I'm wrong in front of my kids actually builds a stronger relationship with them and my parents God, blessem different, different generation. I don't remember my parents saying they were wrong very much when I was growing up. You know, it was kind of like Talk to, you know, be quiet. I'm right, I'm a parent and I gained so much credibility when I go to my kids and go, I was kind of jerk to you today and they're like,

Yeah, I know that doesn't mean I do it like because I want to be there there, buddy. And when their popularity, I mean, I just have to convince them that I'll actually see it the way it is. We gain much more credibility by being vulnerable when we're leaders.

It's crazy now. You also write for people who are not necessarily in a leadership position and you talk about one of the the most difficult positions or job killer is really feeling anonymous in an organization. What we do to not feel anonymous in our organization and not

be that cog a secondary part of our business. We help organizations to become more successful through their leadership teams were so bent on helping people not be miserable in their jobs. And every company out there is like it's a war for talent. How do we get people to be more engaged? And what do we need? Better food at the lunch? Sure. No, no, no. People at work need three things that are free. And if you give him those three things, they're gonna bounce off the walls and love working there. As long as you're paying them enough, you don't have to overpay over. Paying people to work in a miserable job is a terrible idea. Pay them well,

but give them the three free things they need. And the first thing they need is to be known. It's like and that sounds so silly. Sound like this is a kindergarten lesson. But I work with leaders and it's like you have to take a personal interest in the employees who worked with you for you in their job and then how they're doing and in their personal life. And I don't mean if you're the CEO of 1000 employees, you gotta know everything. But how about the your direct reports? Taken interest in them. If you're the executive vice president of Nike and your boss, the CEO isn't interest in you as a person. You're not gonna love your job. And I've worked for professional football players who's The coaches are totally disinterested in them and they're like, It's kind of a drag. I go to work, they don't really care and I don't care in any job,

your manager and man, if your manager's manager does, it is even amazing, taken interest in their lives. It's free. We know in our jobs has. Nobody will deny that it makes a difference to them in their work. Everybody will say, Oh, yeah, I love it when my manager's interested me and I said Why don't you do it for your people? Like I don't know, I'm busy and I don't know. It might be awkward and, you know, we all live in California,

so we think, Well, if you make eye contact with a person at work, you're gonna get sued. You know,

now we get a lot of feedback around our free social skills challenge, especially on how difficult it is to define your core values. So we created a free training to help you out. This free training's gonna cover howto identify those core values, live them daily and finally start communicating them to others. If you wanna hop on this free training before we shut it down, head on over to the art of charm dot com slash panda or text panda toe. 16785067543 Again go right now to the arctic charm dot com slash panda. That's panda Panda like the bear p a N d A or tux Panda P A N d A. 216785067543 and get registered for this training before we decide to take it down.

You gotta love on the people, and you've got to do it by taking interest. So that's the first thing. Anonymity is a total job killer. I've worked in jobs where nobody cared about me. I don't care if it was the sexiest, most high paying job in the world. I was miserable. The other two things are. Then you have to let them know that their job matters to someone. I don't care what their job is. I don't care if they're a doctor. You know, doctors and priests and firefighters. They already know teachers. You know, that's a vocation.

Most people's jobs. I don't know. The job of a manager is to go tell their employees. I don't care if they're the receptionist sitting at the front desk. Here's why. When you do a good job, you make my life better or you make somebody's life better. You matter here, and you're not like telling him something. That's not true. You're just being frank, like your job makes a difference to people to money. Managers don't do that. They think will they know We told them it orientation. Now our job is managers to remind people constantly. Hey,

I noticed you did this really well today. Do you realize who that impacts, and do you realize how that helps the firm and how much better I feel because you do that Nobody ever left a job and said, you know, if my manager told me one more time why I made a difference, I'm out of there, Yeah, and the last thing is, people just need to know if they're doing a good job. They need to have some way of assessing not just the boss's opinion but some sort of observable assessment, whether it's not always a metric but some way of going. Am I doing well? I don't know. Let's take a look at your output. Yeah, it looks like you're doing great.

So if a person is known, they're reminded constantly why their job matters and their work matters, and they have some way of assessing their success. They're not leaving. If you give those three things to a person in a job, they're going nowhere unless they are so grossly underpaid that they just have to do it for

the family. Well, these three things certainly allow people to feel safe. And when you feel safe, you can focus on doing your job rather than leaving your shoulder wondering what's going on behind your fan. And the other thing about this is where technology is is at now and where it's going. We're continuing five having more, more people working from home and not in the same quarters or in these we work spaces where that you might not even see people on your team for a few days, though this may all this technology makes you being able to work remotely. Well, that's great. And that's nice. And you could go work it. We worker at Starbucks and do your thing, but without putting in the extra to reach out the top tier team, then you're off on an island and it won't be too long before yourself or your team mates start toe wondering. Am I OK?

Here am I right, Am I? Where am I doing the right things? Am I safe? And and that is what I'm doing contributing to this project.

Yeah, it's a great point. I never thought about its safety. You're exactly right. You go to work and you feel safe because you're like all this is here. I can actually come here and feel good about what I'm doing. And you said something about virtual workers, too. And it's interesting thing, cause I've always said we underestimate the challenge of virtual work just because technology allows you to communicate. There's something about human contact that makes everything better. But here's the thing. You just help me understand something, and that is it. If you have a virtual worker who you don't see, but you take an interest in their lives. You're constantly reminding them why their job matters and you're you're allowing them to understand if they're succeeding,

they will be better off than that guy sitting the next. Or that gal sitting across the hall that you get to see who. You never asked them questions about their life. You don't tell them why it matters. In other words, I would rather people work together. But if you're gonna work apart, then overdo those other things and you're probably gonna outperform those people that work together that don't

do it for us. You're certainly going to. It's starting all of those meetings with winds and not just company wins, but personal wins an opportunity, right to talk about what's going on in your life. What you're excited about what you accomplished over the weekend, what happened with your kids. All those little moments are just as important as the task at hand to that individual on your team.

Absolutely. You know, I'm gonna share something with you. I haven't written about this yet. We're going to do a podcast about it one of these days, but I think efficiency is overrated and effectiveness is underrated, and I think that people go, We don't have time to do that stuff. It's like, what? Oh, yeah, we're gonna We got a lot of meetings to go through. It's like so you you can't slow down to be human And you don't realize that when you're human, they're going to do, like, 10 times the amount of work and,

well, that's not efficient. But it's effective, and I almost believe you have to be intentionally inefficient in order to be effective. We found that to be true in our company,

and your point is, what people aren't understanding is the lack of their effectiveness leads to more meetings. They probably would need less your meetings if they were more effective,

exactly, which is an official. I wrote a book called Death by Meeting and everybody thought it was So you're going to say less meetings. I'm like, No, no, no more meetings, different kinds of meetings with really clear context, really compelling and interesting meetings. You're going to get more work done and they're like, Yeah, but I just want to spend less time in meetings. No, no, no. The bad meetings that you're having now are creating all this. Make work. Your effectiveness is gonna go through the roof if you just have good meetings. So it's one of those things that you know. You have to see the bigger picture.

One of the things we talk about here, the other charm is leading from the seat that you're in. So even if you aren't a manager or you're not the leader, it is important for you to come into your job to be a leader from where you are. What in your mind makes that ideal team player in that ideal teammate?

So, yeah, most people are not CEOs, and most people are not the leader of the organization. But they might be the leader of their team or their department. They might be of an informal leader to be an ideal team player. There's three qualities you have to have. That's one of my most recent books. It's You have to be humble, which means it's about the team. It's not about me, okay, Arrogant, self centered nous ego driven is a killer on a team. You have to be hungry, which means I'm not gonna do the minimum if you ask me to do something, I'm gonna go above and beyond.

I'm gonna figure out maybe I could do a little better than that. Or maybe even a lot better than that. So hungry is that work ethic, and the 3rd 1 is smart, but not intellectually smart. It's emotionally intelligent. It's common sense around people and how, to my words and actions affect them. If you hire people. And I believe this so strongly because we've been practicing this for 20 years, if you hire people who are humble, hungry and smart, they're going to be wildly successful, and they're gonna figure out how to do the technical parts of their job. I mean, we're not talking about brain surgery or flying an airplane.

There's technical requirements here, but most jobs you take a humble, hungry, smart person that trumps all of the technical skills that you think you need. So don't hire people that lack that air ego driven, lazy or emotionally clueless, and it changes everything. Week. When we wrote that book, I thought that would be my first book that people would say do This is way too simple. I wasn't even gonna write it in. People said It's a book. That book is being used by so many people. They've changed your hiring criteria. I saw a There's a coach around here who puts humble, hungry smart on his on his helmets of his kids.

And there's a college that uses it for all their teams. Just this morning I saw a photograph of a bunch of people who run a church who made a bracelet out of humble, hungry, smart. And they said, We're gonna all be like this. There's something simple and and whole about those three things. My 17 year old son, who doesn't read my books, generally was in my office one day and he saw the humble, hungry smart on the board, and I explained it to him. He goes, Oh, Dad, that's dope.

He said, That's my friends. If you're humble, hungry and smart, you're gonna be a good friend. You're gonna be a good teammate. You're gonna be. That's everything. What's missing? He was like, What's missing So humble? Hungry? Smart is how If you can do that, you're gonna be really successful

in life. That's number one. Exactly what we look for in terms of teammates and promoting people within the organization. And I love that your son pointed that out because surrounding yourself with that as friends is just as important. He went through

his list of friends. He has a big group of wonderful kids, but and he said, Those are my three favorites. Oh, my gosh. That's why. And this guy Oh, he lacks that. And this one lacks that. Now, the good thing to do is, if you're really good friends, to go to somebody and be able to say, Dude, I think you could improve in this area. That would really help you in life, but that requires a level of trust and vulnerability. You actually hear that?

Now, your latest book, the Motive, has two very different leaders. And I would love to wrap this on this concept because Johnny and I found it so fascinating. And it it really just dovetails with what we've been trying to do here on this show. What are these two leaders? And I think as the listener pays attention, you're going to start to recognize some things in yourself that are really powerful.

Yeah, you know, people, this is my 12th book. Gosh, I never thought I'd write more than two. If somebody were to say, Which book should I read first? I would say this one because it's not about how to be a better leader. It's about why you want to be a leader in the first place. And there's two primary reasons to become a leader. One reason to be a leader. The knot right reason These people see it as a reward. You know, I like to say when people are young, people say, Go out and be a leader.

You go to graduation speeches, appeals. I go out and be a leader changed around like No, don't do it unless you know why you want to. And if you're doing it because you think it's cool and it's gonna make you Maur sought after and feel better about yourself, that's a really bad reason to be a leader, because you're not gonna do the hard parts of your job. The real reason to be a leader is because you see there's a responsibility. It's a burden, and the economics of leadership are not very good. In other words, you're gonna put a lot more into it for others, then you're gonna get out of it for yourself. And if you go into leadership with that in mind, fantastic, then you're gonna take on the hard stuff and say,

Yeah, this is my burden. This is my job. It's like being a parent. It's like, Where you gonna be a parent? Because I think it sounds cool. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. The cool parts come every once while the hard parts come every day. And if you're doing it because you think it's cool, you're not gonna want to do the hard part's.

So the motive is as these two leaders of two companies that get together to share ideas and the one guy is clearly motivated by ego and by himself and the other guy used to be and figured it out and now motivated for the right things. And they have a very edgy, very conflict laden and very real conversation about this. And there's some twists and turns and some politics in there and some surprises. Ah, lot of people that read my books say this is my best fiction. It's also my shortest. I think that helps believer in short things, and I think that if a person is, Ah, young leader or any leader at all. This is the book to start with, because what they could do is they can read it and say, Oh, I'm a little off Cause even I, I can look at my career and say There's times I was a leader for myself and it didn't work.

So it's not like your visionary is black or white. It's like you can look at and say I need to adjust my motive So it's it's it's just came out And, um, maybe this will be the first book that sucks. I don't know the first readers tell me it doesn't, but I'm waiting for that book. Yeah,

I doubt it. Johnny and I thoroughly enjoyed it, and it really is, I believe my evolution as a leader. You know, when you are thrust in a leadership role in your twenties, it's easy to fall into that reward oriented mindset. Absolutely, and even society actually encourages that. Absolutely. You look at what's going on in social media and how we elevate people and celebrate people. It is often times for that reward oriented leadership, but flipping it and this is something that Gary V preaches to that. I'm a huge fan of his. You work for your people. A good leader understands that each and every member of his team he is responsible for it is not the other way around.

Right? And when we look at the famous people often say, Who's the best CEO in the world? I'm like you want a famous one, right? It's somebody who's not famous, who's doing their job really well and doesn't care if you know who they are, exactly as we look at, like Silicon Valley or these people in media. And it's like, No, no, no, no, no. They're doing this for a different reason, and usually they implode usually implodes.

And the question is, you know, Are you willing? And you talked about that before and people call that servant leadership right? I don't like the term servant leadership. You know why? Because it implies that there's another kind. That's valley, right? That should be the only kind is like, So we're gonna have to be leader. Oh, good. Maybe I'll be a servant leader. No, Maybe not.

No, no, no. If you're not gonna be a servant leader, you're not gonna be a leader.

Well, it's It's It's so difficult with everyone's expectations and wanted the company to go well and shareholders. And then you're gonna bring in media and the attention of everybody else of what you're doing and who you are. How do you? I mean, that is just that is ridiculous. And to expect one person to be able to manage that and hold the company, it's such regards and block out everything else. I mean, I just find that ridiculous. And

we even four guys, I have a question for you. Do you know who the CEO of Southwest airline is? Do you know his name is? No. Isn't it awesome? Okay, this is a company. This is the most successful company in the last 40 years of American business. They have never failed to make money. It's an airline. Half of them had to get bailed out. They have never laid off employees for financial reasons. They have made money every time their customers love them. They've They've survived 9 11 They don't say Still don't charge for bags and they give which is a huge hit to their bottom line. And you don't even know if Gary Kelly walked in your office right now and sat down at the table, you wouldn't know who he was,

because you don't know what he looks like. And let me tell you, if he talked to you for for for an hour, you wouldn't know he would not make you. He would not try to impress you. Yeah, he is a fantastic leader and he does not want to be famous.

That's exactly what I want to say. That was my point. We've had so fortunate to start training these leaders of these massive companies. And they are not the egotistical, driven people that you suspect. They are behind the scenes, elevating their teammates, looking at everyone else and trying to celebrate everyone else instead of running to the cameras to tout their own success. And I would say, even they even here anything about cameras or senator attention or an interview there, like get that out of here and just something else about. So let's not anything that has survived all that. They had a reality television show that that they survived and you didn't see what your you mentioned was. Ain't Gerry Kelly. I believe he wasn't running around on the on the show like No, it it was about the company. It was about there. Oh,

yeah, Exactly. When you said, Yeah, they're reality. Where I first met them, I said to them, Tell me about why you did that show. And they said, You know why? And by the way they edited almost nothing

out. Oh, it was It was It was raw.

They said, We trust our people Amazing to do things right. And we and you know why they eventually decided not to do it anymore is because they said it just got to be too much about drunk people they weren't worried about. They were worried about how they came across. They said It just kind of gotten to be like, Let's see another person throw up on a plane or try to hit somebody. But they were so raw about it. And you're right. It wasn't about the people at Southwest Airlines. Behind the scenes, the culture there is even better than what you've heard. They're not ego driven at all. Some companies have a reputation for being good, but then you go there and it's like I don't know, like I don't know what Disney's like, But you know what I would say? Like you go to Disneyland the happiest place on Earth. You figure that Mickey's probably smoking a cigarette and punching out many behind the scenes. And, you know, I don't know that they're really all that happy because they really market that Southwest is totally genuine and it starts at the

top. Thank you so much for joining us. You've got us all fired up. Books get us fired up. So many great lessons. There were more time Where it can our listeners find that great assessment and the rest of your books?

A table group dot com table group like kitchen table table group dot com. You can find all of our stuff and we I have just started doing a podcast. I love being on podcasts, and we just started doing one me and Cody of a partner of mine here. And if we have, it's called at the table with Patrick Lynch. Tony and it's like this. I could sit and keep talking. It's just liberal arts and business X together. Thanks for having me here. This has been a blast,

really really likewise. Thanks for coming on and keep writing. We love your books. Love the parables and so many great lessons there for everyone. Thanks, guys. We know of your listener. The show. You've probably heard us talk about our weeklong boot camp in L. A. Where we spend a week unlocking your charisma, growing those social skills and boosting your emotional intelligence with our science packed lectures, drills and exercises. What? We've decided to close the boot camp this August. Why you ask? Because after 13 years and thousands of students,

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