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Speaker 1

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All right, welcome back, everyone. This is the change. Like a podcast. Feature the hackers, the leaders in the innovators of software development at Madam's Takeover Yank editor in Chief of Change Log on today's show jnr talking to Eugene Raj, co creator of Mastodons. We cover where mastodons came from. The problem it aimed to solve. How it's not exactly a Twitter alternative, although that is, it's known claim to fame, why it's probably not going anywhere.

The ends and outs of federation getting started running An instance White want to cool stuff you've never considered built on top of Master Don? And finally, the story behind naming posted content to

Let's Start with the Start of Mass. Adan, Where did this come from and when did it happen? And what problems were you trying to solve?

Speaker 2

A. Started the Bobic master on when I was studying computer science at UNI. It was around March 2016 and it was a serve throwaway project for me at the start because I was just curious to play around with the technology. Um, and I wasn't really sure that it would go anywhere. I mean, the situation around Twitter was a little bit different at the time.

It wasn't so, uh, so obvious where things were going to go to put it that way. So it was less about how bad, where was and more about principles and interesting technology. So I've been aware of the existence of Federated Federated Social Networks for a few years back in 2010 I think was the first I heard of them from a friend there used to discuss that technology, and we used to even post on identical and which was the Federated Network at the time.

That's what it was called. Um, I mean it back in 2010. It was kind of a promising technology, actually, because they had support from Google. Google was developing their own social network, which was the producer off Google Plus. And it was a thing called Google Buzz. And they actually had a hand in developing some of the protocols that were later used in identical and then which was later renamed to state of Snapped, which was later which would later become new social.

And so in much the cells and 16 I just wanted to check. Well, how is that no social thing doing right now? Um, and I saw that it was still alive and, um, but it obviously looked kind of awful. Visually, it was like, Yeah, I like using tweet deck. I kind of want to make an interface for it that works like tweet die, and that looks good. Maybe people will switch, but I didn't have any, uh, big ambitions about that.

I just thought I make something that people who are really used to show show which just switched to I wasn't expecting anyone from outside that circle to make a jump. Um, but I soon found that no social had rather arcane code base, very old style PHP and who just shuddered, and I kind of sign it. Teoh, try starting from scratch on dso weight.

I started, uh, the U I became got off like a secondary school. I started developing and Ruby on and I started with an A P I first approach. The first few months that Masterman existed, I was using it from the terminal using Curl. Well, that's quite a long story about just march, isn't it? When I graduated from university, um, I have the opportunity to just sort of have a break on do whatever I wanted for a while before I needed to start searching for a new job.

So because I actually have, like, a freelance gig at the time, So I decided to make it an interface for Massillon and, like, finish it and see where it goes and start a patriot for it. In the 1st 2 months of that, the patron was really low but it was more than expect Was late. I don't know. 20 bucks and then in November, 2016 is when, um, three interface was ready nuts that I posted a link to it on hacker news.

And it was the first time mass, and I actually got users. To be fair, there were users before that just because Massa don't was part of the estate does network, which was also part of, you know, social frantic, etcetera. It's that protocol that unites all those platforms. But but master itself had, I think one or two users time, probably my friend travel this May account.

He didn't think it would go anywhere. He just wanted Teoh. Uh, would you call it just just play along with me? Um, yeah, but in November was the first taste of the fact that there was actually a niche for the ski anything and, uh, that it was ah, zeitgeist for for a twere alternative. Um, yeah, and the first wave of users was very technical.

So, you know, obviously people from hacker news and that was when I got feedback and start developing according to feedback. And then I don't know the rest is history.

Speaker 1

Well, it's a bit interesting to me that it started not as an answer to Twitter, but as really you, based on principles that you learned really kind of messing around with Confederated Technologies more than anything else because it seems very much like an answer to Twitter, and it's definitely pitched that way now. But sounds like you kind of backed into that a little bit.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, the ambitions grew with more success. I've put it them with, um when I noticed that it was actually getting popular, you know, I wasn't satisfied with just being in each thing anymore. So, you know, if you have the opportunity to make a real alternative to a big platform, and for it to become the future of social and working well, you really want to pass up the opportunity.

So, yeah, nowadays it it really is that where alternative, But but not in the way that you know that it's specifically made as, uh, how would I put a full Twitter like like Twitter clone? It's not that it's never bean that it just it works this way just because it's it's how it felt natural to me as the Twitter user, you know. So like from years of using Twitter before, this is what I would have expected from a social media platform, right? I think what's interesting

Speaker 1

about Twitter's that, like it's a it's become utility right? Like they originally open up the question, which was how Twitter began similar in nature to yours, like just kind of accidental like, I'm sure that they didn't think they would build the business he built today. The their ambitions grew over time as success grew. It originally began because it wanted to answer the question of what's happening right now for you, like What's you doing right now? And that was either delivering a pizza for delivery drivers or whatever in a A messaging system.

But now it's become so popular that it's become utility, and I think once you get to utility status, that's when we have to start breaking down the walls of the corporate interests in that, that's where I think maybe you're angle is with mastodons that correct or someone accurate

Speaker 2

amateur. Could you elaborate what you mean with corporate by corporate interests?

Speaker 1

Well, Twitter's owned and operated by one density. It's not Federated, whereas Macedonians a protocol. It's, ah, framework. It's, you know, there's a lot of opportunity. It's open source. It's free. Um, you know, it has freedoms that Twitter does not have. But the point I'm trying to make is it's become utility. And so it's become something that pretty much a good majority of the world relies upon to share real time information.

You know, it's a network. It's a social network. But above that, it's also just really time communication.

Speaker 2

I don't think those things are mutually exclusive, in fact, that say, it's exactly the same thing. I think that social networks are a utility. I mean, they're indispensable nowadays, you need them for work, you need them for friendships and the fact that one company owns most of them or that's not how did that one come? Controls controls each one of them or in in in the case of Facebook, controls to off them and a chat service always kind of bothered me, and certainly I had that angle of from before I even started massed on.

I think for a few years before that, I was thinking, Oh, Twitter should be public utility except Obviously, my idea hasn't Ford back then. And I was just thinking, in terms off some kind of government control over. You know, the fact that you know that just summer becomes a public utility. Kind of like what our pipes are, You know, um, but then obviously that idea evolved, and I don't know everything.

That's a very good idea, because, uh, governments owning large amounts off private data about citizens. This isn't really a good idea anymore. Um, certainly. No. After which year was when we got Thea the Snowden revelations. In any case, Um, I think the idea, baby. Yeah, I was thinking about about that time. Um, I think the idea of multiple organizations and individuals owning an equal parts, they're independent servers that sort of inter communicate with it sure is a lot better.

Anyway, it scales a lot better if it works. A look. A look better for, uh, self determination. Like if there's a service in Germany, their service, and France and they can't operate according to their own customs and values. Lewis e. I think that's just a lot better than than if just Twitter was owned by the US government. God forbid,

Speaker 1

right? There's a lot of nuance and things at play here you have. You know, Adam saying it is utility. Well, not in a governmental political sense. It's not a utility were saying that. It's very I think your your word was indispensable, which I think is a strong word. There's people who wants it to be a utility, right? These things should be taken over.

They shouldn't be. You know, there's lots of different in denouncing. What have you about really the politics around these things? And definitely I think we can all agree At least us three here on the call that having a large amount of of data and really broadcast ability in the hands of a few entities, whether those air public or private, right, Like like you said, the U.

S. Government owning these things maybe not any better than one coming than Twitter Inc Only these things who knows. But this Federated model, but that you're doing with massive don definitely is a response, are doing not a response to that. But it answers a lot of the problems that, you know, singular control introduces. No, probably has its own problems, but, um Let's get back into that federation and let's talk.

Let's talk a little bit how how mastered on works, and we'll go from there.

Speaker 2

Okay. Federation will be familiar to those who use email, even though they might not know it by name. It's the principle where a server hosts users and works internally completely independently. So you know, if you are in G mail, you can send the amounts to other Gmail users. Um, but it also works with other servers. So if your friends on Hotmail, your Hotmail friend, consent your email and you can send them email, Um, and it just works, and that's that's what federation is, and that's also how master operates.

Each server is in itself independence and self contained. You know, it could be the only server in the universe, and it will. It will work fine. Um, users sign up just like on any other website, and they can send each other messages. But if there are more than one mast on servers, they can address each other, follow each other and talk to each other as if they were on the same website.

Speaker 1

So you're localized to a server to a host, which could be multiple computers but a single entity running an instance. But then you're able to cross boundaries because those instances air Federated just like email servers are Federated, and they have their own protocols to inter communicate

Speaker 2

exactly the protocol. It uses this cold activity pope, and it's being accepted as a W three c recommended standard last year or this year. I don't remember exactly last year it was a draft that I can tell you for sure, and we were the first platform to implemented. We switched from most days, which I mentioned before because it was antiquated and had a lot of, uh, missing links and floors.

And there's actually quiet. Ah, a massive undertaking, switching an entire Federated platform from one protocol to another. And it certainly involved supporting those status protocol as a sort of a legacy thing, which we still do. So it Currently Meston supports two protocols. They're not 100% compatible with each other. Uh, well, that's that's a weird thing to say.

I should say it like this. A message that comes from a status is not strictly compliant with activity, bub, but it still works just because we made it work. Um, that's how I would put it. But people were You shouldn't care about that anymore. I guess it's very Ni staying to care. About what? Someone

Speaker 1

interesting. So, about a year ago, Adam, you remember this? We had Evan. I cannot remember how. Sales last name program. Ooh, on the change. Romano Prodi. Romo. Thank you. Know, back in. Uh, you know, I'm sure you do, because he's one of the pioneers. A lot of these protocols. Oh, status and involved in the W three sees. What's that working group on Social Web or something like this social working group? Yeah.

Social Working Group. This was Episode 2 57 for those interested Very interesting guy. Very fun conversation. And one of the things that I said back then, we're talking about even part of the title that shows the problem with social networks. And we're talking about how a lot of alternatives to existing networks pop up. They come and they go.

You know, you mentioned you mentioned Google Buzz, which I had actually forgotten existed. Wave. Yeah. So Google's had a few bad cracks at it. Um, all the wave had tons of inertia for, like, three weeks and then just never got any better. Yeah, um, and dot Net the diaspora or diaspora, if you recall that one. And on that show I mentioned mass it on and I said Macedonian had its day in the sun or something along those lines.

And then I said, And then it kind of disappeared. And one

Speaker 2

thing

Speaker 1

that I would say about massive Don and this is what Adam and I we're kind of talking about leading up to this. The show was it just keeps bubbling up again, like it hasn't disappeared, just kind of gets impress. And then it goes back into, you know, doing its thing. And then it gets the more press and seems like the more I don't know, belligerent Twitter management is with their network or their product mass.

Adan gets more and more traction. So have you maybe tell us about the adoption? You mentioned the hacker news pose and that was your first users. But have you sensed like waves of interest and then kind of waxes and wanes?

Speaker 2

Yes. It's actually interesting to hear about the impression that it leaves some people outside Messan circle because obviously from our perspective, we're not really going anywhere. We keep existing. And then people are like, Oh, Mass. Adan is both bubbling up again, right? Um, I think it's more to do with how the press works and how attention on the Internet works in general, because something is Onley in the public view as long as it's new.

So a new release of ah podcast episode would maybe top Reddit on some day. But once it's a few weeks old, it's not gonna appear again right? People always want something. You and same thing is for news. They only publish an article if there is something news worth it to talk about, like a new version of Master was released or it's launched or stuff like that.

But it really doesn't go anywhere. The attention goes, but it stays there. Message on has, um currently I think 1,500,000 registered users, um, and it's had that it's had over a 1,000,000 for a while and within our network, we're quite happy with that. I mean, we're quite satisfied. It's not like we have ah driving force behind us to force us to to Baker and bigger numbers.

It's not like we have any investors to impress. So we're just happy when we have a network where we have friends and we can talk about things with each other and find interesting content. And that already happens, and you don't really need a lot of people for that. You just need, at best, you know, some some way to find them, to find the good people.

Speaker 1

So it's really not about winning.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's really not about winning. I mean, we've already won just by being here, right? That's sort of the attitude that that a lot of people massive 1/2 Well, thank you.

Speaker 1

Inherit some expectations or anticipations because you will sit in the shed of Twitter to most people's eyes, and they will naturally compare you so by nature they assume you're trying to win. But you know, you coming initial at this, ensuring a we're not trying to win, we're just trying to achieve

Speaker 2

success isn't just that it's not even just that it's people's criteria for winning is just not. It's not adjusted for what master on ISS. It's a new concept because I mean email is old, but nobody thinks of it as a social network, and nobody really talks about the success of email. I mean, it's pretty clearly used by everyone. So, yes, you know it's already successful, but nobody really talks about it.

Speaker 1

That's cause there's no press releases for email, right? There's you saying, Look how successful we are because it's just it's a public good or it's a Conrad.

Speaker 2

People judge new social network using the criteria they have from other social networks, like Twitter or Facebook, that reports on active user numbers. They report on quarterly revenue. They talk about monetization. How do you put on ads into it? And all that stuff is kind of development to master on even the question of celebrities like like people say, Oh, there's not enough celebrities of mass don't like Do we really care about that? I mean, we kind of have local sarebbe celebrities, just people who are talented, who to collect following, but they were really need a random p, a person that was in a Hollywood movie on Master, what would would really give us link?

There's suddenly suddenly a demographic that cares about that started thing that follow celebrities on Twitter, but I don't know. It's just never appealed to me. So yeah, I'd say that the expectations that people have for master on success or just not not adjusted and in its own way, master is ready. Massively successful,

Speaker 1

kind of, you know, quote that. I saw it. I think I saw it ironically, on Twitter. But it was about humility. And it was saying something along the lines of You can't You can't beat me if I'm not competing with you. And so thes thes comparisons, which you know because as outsiders were trying to get a gauge on something, of course, in in the tech industry, even an open source, you know there's vanity Metrics, and there's things that we think, you know.

Growth is like a common thing that everybody just thinks about. That's like what your numbers like, Where's your growth? Where's it coming from? Level of law, where you tryingto dio and it's like, well, we compare. It were like, Well, how many people are using mastodons like, Maybe that's not even the maybe the people that are using it. It's not even like a thing that they care about, necessarily as long as there's doesn't feel like a a what you call it when there's nobody in town.

A goat goes to close down the ghost town. Thank you. I thought I was close to that

Speaker 2

so long as

Speaker 1

you're there and your friends were there and you're doing your social networking like that's kind of success. If you're not trying toe to build a big business right, that's the point. That's what slacks are basically to mean. Select committees are not extremely different, Really, That kind of like instances, right?

Speaker 2

Yeah, there's a lot of overlap ins concept with slack groups, the score, termers or even some bread. It's It's not exactly 1 to 1, conceptually, because you know, it'll really think about, Oh, can I follow a Hughes? Or from a different subreddit? But thematically, the way that communities tend to form around a single server, And so if you have a server dedicated to technology or a server dedicated Teoh like cyberpunk, um, it's or it tends to veer towards being like a separated thematically.

That's not to say that user growth is not important at all. I mean, um, I think there is that old Ah, that old proverb that a social network is only Aziz useful as Thea amount of people, you could reach through it right? And then there's that formula where it's useful. This is like the square off the number users or something like that.

Speaker 1

Right Value? Yeah, the value of a network. Yeah, there's ah, statistician who put his name on that one. Metcalfe's law.

Speaker 2

Obviously, I am interested in appealing to new users in appealing to to to the mainstream, um, in growing the platform, because with every new user, it becomes more useful to everyone else. Um, certainly, as it's becoming more active, it's becoming more interesting and you find more cool cat pictures. But yeah, it's just it's e guess. It's just not an existential thing, like there is no time pressure and that sort of thing

Speaker 1

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So let's talk about that new user experience. One of the things that definitely differentiates it from a from a centralized platform is the first thing you have to do is picking instance, which seems like a bit of a barrier cause, you know, where do I belong? Tell us about instances how you join and kind of how a regular person interfaces with Mass Adan, both in a local instance and then kind of the Federated Network.

Speaker 2

It's true, it's a little bit of a barrier because obviously central last social networks that people are used to don't even put that kind of question in front of people like you. You know, you don't need to think about where do I sign up on Twitter? Because it's right there. There is a sign of button right on Mastodons is just a little extra step.

I mean, It's a big step, but it's just one step and you have to pick a server. But it's not. It's not so new to people. I mean, coming back to email, you had to pick an email server at some point. And, you know, most people enjoying Gmail nowadays. I personally use fast mail and some choose life or you who or something. But, um so picking a server, right? The server is operated independently by either an individual or organization.

It has its own rules, kind of like a annulled style forum. Or in fact, at this court community or a slack chat with ever had is still in terms of service. Eso When you're picking one, you kind of need to pick something that you'll be happy with. Um, so if you want to be in any kind of ah, space, a safe space environment, you're gonna go and get one with a strict code of conduct that that forbids certain behaviors and and if you're just, you know, want something different, you go and you check the code of conduct.

You CEO this and this is allowed this and this is forbidden. It said work. This is a bit of a total order. So I understand that not a lot of people go through that sort of thing, and most of them just end up with Master that Social, which I run. I'm OK with that because, um, I believe that as long as they do sign up on lasted on, they always have the opportunity to learn about how it works more and to move to a different server later.

But obviously, if we lose them before sign up, they'll probably never check it out. That's that's my view in that,

Speaker 1

just like lots of whole sign up for Gmail. It's not a big deal Hospital center for Mass it on that social, which is the instance that you run. There is a slight disconnect there, though, because when I'm picking my email provider, I'm not thinking of it, like as a community or as there's no locality to it, like, it doesn't mean I'm okay. I can mostly speak with Gmail people, or there's a little bit of a social like, you know, if you're on a well dot com, your old you know, you're you're an old school.

Are things that connotation? There is Adam. Not cool. Okay, so there's

Speaker 2

some of that with,

Speaker 1

like, what is your email address Kind of kind of signals to people what kind of person you are. Words. But not so much is like I hang out on this forum or this BBS, right. That's a stronger, uh, association eso eso Probably a bigger decision. In fact, you know, I have some friends who have joined Macedonian and I'm very technical person, and I have definitely stopped and looked at it and thought and just not sure which, which instance I would pick.

And so I just go back toe Teoh email on Twitter. But, um, you're saying if you don't know, you know, pick massed on the social and then can you migrate later on? Can I switch instances?

Speaker 2

Kind of. Currently it's ah, it's a bit of a manual process. I mean, you do have to tell your followers to follow the new account, and the content doesn't move. But there is a least a helper in terms of displaying on your profile that you have in fact, moved eso It's it's it's halfway there were working on something better, but it's a tall order.

I mean, not a lot of feathery of networks half soft, this kind of problem. No, you can't really might create an email address. Either You have to tell all of your contacts to update or a draft books and exactly be kind of have a similar problem as well. Which was the Federated Chat Service that G told used to use and once abuse to use. And they they removed federation from those.

But yeah, it had the same problem that it was based on contacts. And you had to kind of let people know to friend you on a new account if you want to move. So definitely not a new problem. And definitely not a self problem anywhere. So it's taking

Speaker 1

a while. Yeah. Is there a resistance to sort of? A. Maybe this is goes against the entire idea of, like, a central directory and then, like the constant planting your roots somewhere so that I can easily pick up my roots and replant myself somewhere else. Should I choose to that kind of concept? It

Speaker 2

seems like a really says, definitely resistance in the community towards any kind of centralization. I mean, people critique message about social for being so big and accepting new users. And I think people are right to worry a little bit. I mean, I know that I wouldn't do anything that see with with that sort of power on, I don't even concerned that that much of power is sport like a huge burden and responsibility to host that many people.

But, um,

Speaker 1

I guess the question is, how often would somebody need to jump ship to a new instance? What would be? Does it happen off and isn't it? I'm sure it's a needed feature, for example, how we've outlined it for getting started. Say easy. First up, move where, if you want later. But, you know, aside from that is a truly useful. Is it really a need, Teoh be ableto go someplace and then leave an instance and go somewhere else, especially What's Federated? And you can message across places like Do you have to belong somewhere?

Speaker 2

People do move their accounts like a long time I often see on my hometown then. Hey, I got a new account. Please follow me there. Um it can get even a little bit annoying. Yeah. Now the know anything about it Not being automatic is obviously that once you may have you rely on people. Having seen your message said, you've moved to a re follow you.

Um, and if somebody's inactive, they're not gonna do that. Um, so you kind of lose inactive followers as you're moving, but I think that's not a big loss except in terms of just having big numbers that you like, you know?

Speaker 1

Yeah. Seems like this is a technical problem that can be solved in time and not necessarily sentimental, flawed or anything like that, right?

Speaker 2

Yeah, it Z really. I mean, the thing is, you could really solve everything if you just use brute force, like Okay, So I shot 40,000 posts on my account, and I've got 100 39,000 followers. Let me moved to different server. The if if I wanted Teoh. Okay, go through every one of those 40,000 posts, re download them on the new server and go through 140,000 people and re subscribe them to the new account.

I mean, it's possible. The only problem is yeah, that's a bit of a computer. Patiently expensive operation, isn't it? Um that's that's the only real where obstacle on the, uh, on the right there.

Speaker 1

Yeah, where it gets a little bit confusing for me. So, like, I make sense as a new user just signing from acid on that social. I definitely understand where there will be people saying, Okay, now we're basically centralizing on this single instance potentially bad, especially if Eugene, you know, goes power hungry and changes everything or something.

Um, but then it's like, Okay, maybe I don't want to do that. Maybe going to pick one. So here's another one Massive don dot technology. Okay, so this is just one that I found there's a little picker or you can go through some of the instances. This is This massive instance is for people interested in technology. Discussions aren't limited symbology, but because tech folks shouldn't be limited a technology either.

So it's not like I have to talk about technology if I joined that instance. But it's for people who associate with technology. It seems like a pretty broad brush. It just feels like such a big decision. Like, do

Speaker 2

I? I am I a tech folk, you know, freedom in how people can run their servers. And so there's different types off ways that people define what their servers for. So there's general purpose, like Master the Social or Octagon. Don't social where it's just like you know, there's no theme. There's no right, I think it's just you sign up, you have an account, you told your friends.

But then there's ones. They're like, Oh, this is for LGBT people Or this is for cyberpunk enthusiast or this for Star Trek fans, you know. But most of them actually don't say, Oh, you can only talk about Star Trek here. It's more like, Oh, you just wanna hang out with Star Trek fans. But talk about your life. You know you're finally do that in your specific case of mass object on the jam.

Pretty sure that's the case,

Speaker 1

right? But that being said so like, let's take analogy back to our slack team, which you haven't seen but also lacks air like this, right? Like we have different channels for people who like Jazz Party, which is another show that we have, or there's one for your elixir for you like elixir. And then there's one for, like, general conversation.

But you could just join all these different channels because I have been like technology, and I like Star Trek. And so is there a cross? Can you can you join? Multiple insists, Maybe just have a separate.

Speaker 2

I get this question a lot, and I find it's a bit of, ah, conceptual understanding. It's because thes servers air created with, like, topics and mind that people start asking, Well, can I join multiple topics? But that's not really how it works. I mean, you have an account and you follow anyone anywhere, right? So if you just want to follow, everyone was a Star Trek fan.

You can sign up on mastered social and follow everyone who's a Star Trek fan. You know, you're not limited to that sort of thing,

Speaker 1

right? Um, just like going back to email like, if I'm on like if I'm on Hotmail, I can talk about anybody Ellen Gmail like there are. You know, there's no topic specific email server so that I guess the question becomes, Why are these instances topic like, Why did they associate themselves topics? Why don't they just like Jared's? Instance? Eugene's instance

Speaker 2

for it's an interesting phenomenon that comes from one particular feature. Mastodons still has a fire hose. Um, I don't know if people would be familiar with the term, but Twitter used to have a public timeline where every public post would appear and they called it the fire hose. They still cook that the fire hose, but it's a closed AP I nowadays,

so messy. Don't does have that. So there is a ton line of every public post, and you can filter that by post from everyone or opposed by people on your server. And that's where the whole topic thing comes into it because you can look at posts just from your server. And so you get this kind of feeling of community with your neighbors, and that's where the whole you know, the potential for hanging out with people.

But the same interests comes into it because you can. You can talk. You can see pose from people you're not following yet it's kind of like a big chat room, but it's funny because it's kind of an incidental future. It wasn't like, really made for this was more like here is a timeline off everyone just so you can find somebody to follow and you know, here's a way to filter it.

And, you know, suddenly there's this whole saying where instances or created around specific topics

Speaker 1

kind of reminds me Jared like if we did, when I saw that there's a feature for organizations which I'm sure we can go into a little deeper but just thinking like Okay, so typically you might be a community, but then you might be an organization. And if we had a massive instance, we would essentially be topical to just by nature, right? Like laser focus on like, say, soft developers life enough, for example.

So if you care about that, since you what are slack represents, it's like computer percents. If that became a mastered on, we're certainly putting a flag saying, Hey, if this type of topic or community isn't of interest to you, here's your invitation. This is the kind of people you could expect to see here, not you can only talk about this, and you could follow anybody on that instance without having to be on the instance.

That's where they it feels like there's barriers between these instances, which aren't actually write a need. It really like it. Yeah, in the instances is mainly just to probably give the Federated part of it, which seems to be leading into potentially security and safety, which is like, Hey, you can go somewhere MB just there and not feel like somebody else can cut your your social off because they've changed the rules on you And that seems to be what it's driving towards.

But it in effect, it's also caused some sort of unneeded hurdle and some confusion points.

Speaker 2

I mean, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's kind of the selling point for organizations, in my opinion, because they wear those stories from Facebook changing their algorithms around fan pages and essentially killing people's businesses. Because suddenly, in people who marked themselves, your fan don't actually see most of your posts unless you pay up.

You know, the the rules of the game are being changed, Um, without anyone's real input, you know, you know the developer side to

Speaker 1

you got a P I changes. I think about the recent Twitter api and changes that basically fractured these experience,

Speaker 2

that I feel like that's a whole separate topic that consult with that. But as I was saying so for organizations. It's Ah, it's a big plus to run their own master on this is because nobody except them can actually shut them out, right. They own their space. They own their social media megaphone. Um, it's it's It's kind of an opportunity for a bit of branding as well, because, like if you host other people, they like they have your brand in their user name, which can be an advantage.

Obviously, it's the ultimate verification as well. On Twitter, you're relying on Twitter, given you the check mark, um, a mess down. There are no check marks. And how would there be if there's, like 4000 different abdomens and you know somebody could fake one? But if you run your own server under your own domain name, then you know everyone knows that you're the rial Jared from the change log.

And not just

Speaker 1

more any Jared night that other Jared from the subway commercials. Not that guy, uh, so little soak in the federation. Then ban an instance. Let's say the clue close Clan gets their own massive Don instance, and they can do whatever they want on their little island because it's a free world know that. But can you can the federation then ban them?

Speaker 2

Come and sing the island unless you go to their domain name register and, like, request them to be taken down like that? That route works like with any other website. However, you I, as a developer, do not have power over other servers just to be clear. Like I developed a self. Very. It's open source that you did something. Somebody installs the suffering, the server.

It's there's I have no control over that, right? But because it's a very, very practical case that does occur, there are ways master down to shut out service tech you don't like, like a far essentially Yeah, essentially like concept conceptually s actually pretty much so, um, from the user side, you can decide. Oh, I don't want to see anything from this domain.

A za personal decision that's step one. And on the administration of level, you have the ability to shut outposts from a specific server or completely remove it from your database so that there is zero interaction between them. Um, and that's what you would do if if such a cookbooks lan server would spring up, it's less

Speaker 1

pretty cool. That all makes sense. How about the the moderation? You said each. Each instance had its invent individually owned and operated, and so they have their own codes of conta ducks. Their own moderators write their own rules of the game with regard to what kind of content you could be posting on that instance. But what about subscriptions? So, um, if I'm on Adam's change long instance as it to user and I subscribe to the Clu Klux Klan member, it is Adami to moderate that because it's on his instance.

Or is it only me that sees it anyways? And so it's kind of a moot point. How does that work?

Speaker 2

There's different levels of moderation are available here. So on one hand you could completely shut down as a sap the cooks land server from your side so that you wouldn't be able to follow them. Uh, on the other hand, there is the other the other level for something perhaps a bit last extreme. You could, um, sandbox it so people can still follow user from that server, but they just don't appear in the firehose view, and they cannot appear in notifications of people who don't follow them.

So, for example, if they are, if they tend to stand harassing messages to strangers, you send box them. And while they no longer appear in, those strangers mentions and cannot harass them. Um, so that's that's, uh, that's that. Now the leading question into this was, How does moderation work when the servers have different rules on? And the point is that each serving forces their rules locally.

So you have your moderators, you have your rules, and we have the ability to

essentially modify the user records of off people from other servers, which, as they are seen from your server because they're essentially a local co p. So you receive messages from the other server. They're safe in your database, and so you can work with them and and moderate them. And so you have the ability to suspend to sandbox people just like you can suspend and sandbox your local users.

And that's what we usually do if there is a problematic user. In another instance, there was a waste of forward reports from people from from one server to another. So, for example, if I see, uh um, some kind of mean message from a different server. I reported to my admits and have the option to forward that report to the admin Zoff, the other server.

If I think that they might also know be okay, would that be on their server? So that's more or less how how it works. That makes

Speaker 1

sense. I mean, because you essentially have some hierarchy and you get your local copies. You got the leaders of that little copy and you got rules you'll decide upon, and I'm sure that's ran. However, those individuals feel so like forms were, um, you know, But then you can also cross have concerns and like minded instances come to some sort of agreement saying, Hey, you reported this person on my instance doing behavior that wasn't right, Thank you.

I'll act accordingly or not. And that's added to the community. Is a good committee effects. People aren't forced to agree with you or do what you say. They have the option to hear. You receive that and then do what they feel. But it's your local over. You can still make your choices for them exactly. Sounds pretty cool. So you get past that uses that initial road bump of which instance to pick.

And let's just say I pick mastered on dot technology because I'm a tech folk. That's right. And I get going, Um, it probably feels a lot like any other social network. There's some differences, of course, in the content you can post give us the rundown 500 characters. You can do video like, what are some of the features that makes us a really valuable and useful social network?

Speaker 2

Uh, you can have any made a diameters. You can put spoiler warnings on text. Um, case you're talking about the latest show and don't wanna know your followers. You can mark individual pictures or rather, you can marketable posts with pictures as not safe for work. Um, brother, marking your entire account does not safe for work as it is on Twitter.

Um, let me think. Haven't compiled such list in my head for quite a while.

Speaker 1

One thing that always comes up in my mind is how do I use this for my phone? Because that's usually I'm socializing.

Speaker 2

Yeah, for some reason, I get a lot of questions like why isn't mastered on on the app store, and it's really weird because you're like a 1,000,000 APS for master on every app store. There's just not cold mass tone because they're developed by third party developers. Um, so methadone has Ah, principal, um, ap I first on and yeah, that's essentially a baby.

I first so like that e todo uh, the web interface uses the same A p i as any other app can use, and so is completely replaceable by the user. If you want a different look, you go and you can have a Web clients where you can have a mobile app and it can do all the same things that the weapons your face can do. And so we don't even try to do an official mobile app.

Because that started tends to, um tends to allow you to create some kind of proprietary behavior that's only available in one app. So by always having torpor, gaps were like, you know, we're working together with independent developers and sort of a thing that's available to one is available to others. And so there's competition is possible.

So yeah, there is there. Starsky for Android. There is an baroque for IOS. There's APS in development for IOS. A one is called Toot App by deck Akron. And I think the guy who developed with Terrific is developing from acid on, but I don't know what the name of that is yet. Um, so that's in the works. There's more. There's subway tutor. There is, ah, to dawn and probably more.

Why do you think

Speaker 1

that the, you know, the inner for the I guess maybe the apse available to access. Maybe I haven't investigated for enough it. Why do you feel that? There's some many why it wasn't there, you know, you know, sort of more collected effort. Is it by design? Obviously, you're not doing it, because maybe it's easier to spread the developer load across.

You know, a similar model of Federated Model. Many of the people you know doing and uniting and that kind of thing. Why do you feel like there's so many? Do you feel like eventually there'll be one or two and they'll be a winner as take likes, always make a winner?

Speaker 2

I think that would be a loss if there was only one. I mean having choices. It's good. I mean, it means that the deer is room for innovation for, you know, trying to get Imagine your competitors. It's it's better for the users. Um, why there are so many right now, I don't know because my son is young and there isn't ah, like a status quo yet.

I mean, most of these APS are yeah, they're really new. And, um, many of them have bean started at the same time or close to the same time. So it's kind of natural for them to be multiple rather than 11 app. Um, aside from

Speaker 1

platform, you know, like android IOS. You know, I can see having the need for many, and I'm not saying only one is needed. But I wonder what the differentiators are like. We're the adding to sure innovation, opportunities for innovation that makes sense free will

Speaker 2

think it's visuals. Okay. I mean, the things I have seen is just the way the user interface is designed. They mostly implement the same features just because those features are available through the A P. I mean, there's no love room for, um, just just doing weird stuff, But, uh, I don't know some innovations that I'm not sure if they're implementing them yet, But there are possible is like, How does the phone's camera interact with master like maybe you could build a way to record video into the APP.

I was wished that there would be some app that just took the video recorder from Vine and just, you know, because Metro supports video uploads so it could just work. Is Vine with a different interface, But obviously that just it only depends on the app supporting video recording. This that's all that's needed. That makes

Speaker 1

more sense where you can actually, you know where this application that gives you access to Maston instances is more favorite. Only did general user experience, and maybe this one is focused on like a vine like user experience. That's me makes far more sense and makes more sense why there's different instances that super cool. Yeah, it makes me think.

Now, the now as I'm as I'm on a moderator, but as a instance host, can I set up limits and stuff on how much band with my instances, this host even serving, because if all of sudden every start doing videos onto my instance, maybe it gets expensive for me

Speaker 2

right. Um, currently, old limits her heart covered in the same for everyone because we want to have, um, sort of, ah, standard user experience. So, you know, picking an instance is hard enough just from rules and the topic. You don't wanna have people thinking, Oh, does this server support 10 megabyte images or two megabyte images? You know that, that sort of thing.

We don't want people to have to think about that. So it's the same for everyone. It's eight megabytes for image uploads and 40 megabytes for video blows at the time. Uh, at this time, um and, uh, it downsize the images, if possible, if they're too big for for the Web. And so Storage is trying to use the storage

Speaker 1

a sufficiently as possible. This'll episode is brought to you by our friends at Go CD. Go City is an open source, continues delivery service built by thought works. Check him out at Go citi dot warg or on get hub at get up dot com slash go CD go City provides continues delivery out of the box with built in pipelines, advanced traceability and value stream visualization.

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Once again, go cd dot org's last change.

Continue the conversation on Just Differentiation. Obviously, you've got one AP I One way things work. You've got standards in which being with can be used all that good stuff. So everyone's playing by the same rules, theoretically. And but yet you have many different types of applications that could be done for different experiences. What else did Frenchies message on?

Speaker 2

One thing about mass on is what I have mentioned before. The way the Federation of Works is based on a protocol that is recommended by the W three C. Um, now, what that really means is that when you're using massive on you're not using, just mastered on or rather master on isn't the whole thing, um, massive implements activity pub, But literally any other software could also implement the same protocol and be immediately compatible with master as long as you have the concept off users and the concept a concept of subscriptions between users, there is essentially no limits how these platforms can interact what this means.

In practice, there is a least five, maybe more different software projects that implement activity put that are provide a completely different experience. For example, for people who want something like YouTube, where you upload videos and you subscribe channels, there is a project Hold Pierre tube. And what really blows the minds of some people who learn about this is that you can follow with purity of account from your message on account.

And new videos just appear in your home feed, like as if they were in the same platform. And there is a project that, um, that focuses on image sharing. Kind of like Instagram is called pixel fad, and it's gonna work the same way you follow and picks off at user for me master on account and the photos just appear in your feed. And if you're apply to them, your reply appears, is a comment on that photo and began with the videos.

You comment on the video and the comment appears under in a video on YouTube. Um and so when you decide to use massive on, you're not really just gambling on the success of master owned by itself. You're gambling on this interoperable network that implements this protocol. Um, we actually call it the Fed diverse, like Federated Universe. So you would likely hear that term used commonly.

Um, essentially, it's It's part of the design that eventually years later, maybe some developer comes along and develop something that is 1000 times better than master on. But as long as it uses the same protocol, people could just switch smoothly. And rather than losing all of their social graph that their connections, their friends, they're still in the same network.

It's just, you know, it's just like switching to different account. And I think that's the strength of master on, then its main ideological differentiator. That's pretty

Speaker 1

important to go me if you take what Masterton is and you want to create your the question is the why fracture and have somebody APs and it sounds like you know that's an advantage, because while I can take, I could make in mass it on instance I can create an application that gives my users or whatever mess about large access to it. But I can also say I intend to have a vine like experience for those vine lovers out there like we want it back.

We need it. We want It gives you a chance to make your own essentially assigned for maybe several technical Harlem churches you know to for being with reasons and whatnot around video and that kind of stuff, essentially your you give them the ability to do that and they can have their own instance. It's Federated all that good stuff. They have their own application, but someone else could use the same application and connect their own vine like mastered on instance.

Lots of opportunities of Maybe I'm just old. Maybe I've hosted too many servers in my day, but I just go back to the instances and the the providers of the instances. And that's why you Gino's asking about band with costs and the settings and stuff because I start thinking like I

Speaker 2

see the

Speaker 1

incentive and it sounds like a really great network for users, and I wonder what the incentives are for hosting the costs of hosting like what it takes to set up an instance, Because ultimately, for federation to work, you need to have enough instances you can't have, you know, three or four, you're gonna end up with the, ah, similar situation.

So you need those options. But over time and success of the network is gonna cause the hosting costs to go up. I'm just thinking of hosting the vine instance. And maybe I have that limit of 40 megabytes per upload. But people are doing thousands of vines a day all of a sudden, and I'm just running this as my little you know, sign hobby. So what are some of the incentives for people to host instances and one of the costs And what does that look like?

Speaker 2

The incentives are usually ideological, like owning your own space, owning your own data. No, being dependent on anyone, um is a pretty good motivator. Come certainly for for communities and families, maybe, um, for gun is ations ITT's. It's again, as I mentioned before, verification the fact that if it's on your own domain, it pretty much proves that you're who you say you're, um there are no financial motivators for hosting an instance, really uh, really more about crowd funding for a sustainability.

So most servers would have, like a patriot on or some other form of accepting donations. And, you know, most people donate if they are happy with the service. I

Speaker 1

think of it like dues, almost like there's a base cost to run things. And the concept of dues versus, like donations might be an application there because, like from part of a community, and it costs 300 books from the server and there's 300 users will. Everybody pays a buck, and that's cool. I don't mind paying the Dio

Speaker 2

and you could you could actually do that. I mean, I know what least one server that implements pay well for a signing up, and it's fair enough. You mean you're allowed to do that?

Speaker 1

That's not a motivator. It sounds like I mean for going well, going back to the email scenario. A lot will use Gmail and Yahoo and stuff because they're free. And of course, Google and Yahoo and Microsoft have their reasons why they want people using their email. But then also, you said yourself, use fast mail right isn't that G is a service that you pay for, right?

Speaker 2

Yeah, pay for yeah,

Speaker 1

because they provide us solid hosting scenario and features that you like and then give you access to email. So

Speaker 2

what I'm thinking about I'm pretty sure has seen some servers that have closed records traced in restaurants. But they have a message that says, if you donate our Petri on, you can get a sign up straight away, so that sort of thing already exists. Maybe it's not quiet. Is, um, implemented as cleanly as just having a button or something? Yeah, because it's just It's no part of the software that comes that is delivered, but it's certainly possible.

It's and it's certainly a valid tactic. I mean, it's you can argue that's not sustainable.

Speaker 1

There's no rules against it. It's not like no, you can't take, you know you can't take payment to host an instance. There's no there's no greater mastered on board of directors is going to stop you.

Speaker 2

Hosting Massimo isn't as expensive as you would think. Um, it certainly it's it's somewhere in between, and it depends a lot on how smart you want to be about how you host it? Because if you just use Hera cope well, you're gonna be buried under a mountain of bills, and if you use that was a Web services is certainly not gonna end well either.

However, if you use a dedicated, he is a dedicated box that put it on, it can be quite cheap. And if you're smart about where to store the user uploaded files, it can be cheaper to, I mean, as on s three is like the most popular choice. But the problem is it's got expensive to store data, and it's very expensive to get the data out through band with, as you said.

But there is a trick you can do to reduce the storage. So first of all, why would you even use that story in the first place? Well, if you have more than one machine serving master on as you would if you're scaling up or if you just have limited disk based storage on your box, then he would need something like object storage. Um, so But at the same time, there's no reason while your load balancer where you know your engine ICS couldn't just serve those files were store copia of them.

So the way I do it in the way a few people who also use object storage a do it to reduce the costs between S three and the end user is by having a ninja next proxy in between them with proxy cashing. So your load balancer fetches the data from S three and then saves it for a while. And maybe it's, you know, maybe it's 50 gigabytes off cash on the little balancer, but that's okay, because those are the only ones they're being access through through the interface.

And every every server that runs your message in code can upload to the S tree. And so it zona, it's a perfect way to manage it. And then if you put Cloudflare on top of that which provides free band with, then well, he your dear bandwidth costs for us tree or almost close to zero.

Speaker 1

Is there a best practice out there that breaks us down anywhere? Or is this just said here for the first time?

Speaker 2

And though it's certainly not set for first time, but I'm actually not sure if that's written down in the documentation, um,

Speaker 1

be interesting to point that don. For the listeners. Yeah, that be there were great. Yeah. It also be a good way to get involved as a contributor, you know, mastered on open source. A lot of people running instances. There is a lot of probably, I don't know, the low hanging fruit, But there's at least fruit hanging out there where an optimization is could yield huge gains for all these people who are hosting and who are bearing real costs month by month in reducing those fees.

And you basically make the network a lot better. Be a good way to get involved.

Speaker 2

But yeah, if you want to know, Messenger of Social has let me check. Just just to be sure, currently has 200,032 No, sorry. 232,000 users, um, off which 30,000 were active last week. Um, so the total number of registrations doesn't really matter as much in terms of of hosting coasts, because, like, you know, it's just a little bit of database space, But if they don't act, if they're not really they don't affect your server, right? Peak activities really matter, so yeah, So 30,000 users that costs me 470 euros on head Zehner Detzner is a German hosting provider that is, I think, six or seven dedicated servers, not virtual service, but like actual boxes with I think.

I mean, they're really beefy and most of the RAM is not used. Message was really more CPU bounce than Ram bound except for like a baseline off RAM requirements just because it's using Ruby. But it's not Aziz bad. As people always talk about Ruby, what's a good you can for it? The service I'm using? Each has eight course. It's It's a nice seven something something with hyper threading with writing.

So I mean, that's pretty good. And currently I'm under capacity. I think is right. Words like there was a wave of new users. Ah, a few weeks ago And yeah, if I look at it, that was like, 43,000 users. And so that's when I acquired the last three new machines to handle the load. Um, but right now I'm like, over paying, I would say Maybe so.

So in reality, you would pay less. Perhaps So

Speaker 1

you're also are hosting one of the larger instances out there

Speaker 2

Yes, it's It's one of the biggest ones out there.

Speaker 1

So what? We're talking about money. Let's let's mentioned the fact that, you know, oftentimes on the change long we talk about sustainability and how this is gonna work and all that. But it seems like you have a pretty good hold on at this point. So you you accept sponsorships via patri on, and you're bringing in what? Your goal is $5000 per month you've reached.

And so you're now working full time. I'm asset on. Tell us about that success and how has given you what freedom we have toe build this thing.

Speaker 2

I wasn't expecting to reach that goal. Uh, I've said I don't

Speaker 1

reach that goal. So yeah,

Speaker 2

I've said it and I thought, OK, let's just be something that you know. People see that you know it's there. But, you know, I was I was fine with the last money. I mean, I've lived unless, um let's let's put it that way. One point about the last question that I feel like maybe left out is when I was talking about is the rule cost of hosting a server.

So the technology, the hardware. But there is obviously ah, cost to moderating it like your own time, obviously, is a cost. And if it's a big server, you'll need more readers. And some people are OK with having volunteer moderators, and you know, people are may be willing to work for free. But if you want to be fair and I want to be fair, you want toe pay your moderators and so that's a bit faster.

Costs on top of that. Um, interesting. I think I have five. Yeah, I have five moderators and payroll.

Speaker 1

Is that part of like, Would you consider the gig economy? Or is it? It's not full time jobs for these people. This

Speaker 2

is No, it's not. It's not really full time job, you know, it's more like a small contracts. I mean, I don't really require them to have ah set hours or hourly requirement. I'm just like, Well, here's privileges. Teoh access the moderation. You I and you're gonna get emails about airports. And when you have time to deal with this, please Dio.

But otherwise just be on stand by. You know, just whenever you're available

Speaker 1

so back, the patron is is this is this. Ah, this unattended goal like you put to go up there. You didn't expect to hit it. Obviously you have. It is, you know, building and maintaining. And all this good stuff around mass it on your full time thing to you

Speaker 2

is it is It's being my full time saying for two years, um

Speaker 1

said because of patriots,

Speaker 2

Well, um

Speaker 1

are like you. Yeah. And the only wealthy somehow, like,

Speaker 2

you know what I mean is no supporting. Yes, it is all thanks to patriots. You know, I'm not independently wealthy. You never know. You never know. I I'm an immigrant. I moved to Germany from Russia when I was 11 and my family serves here from scratch. So it's kind of like, you know, from zero to this. Yeah, that's awesome. But at the same time, I started working at full time even before patron reached any kind off big number.

Like as I said, I had the freelancing gig at the time when Master just started. I eventually quit that, but it provided me with some supplementary income while well, the patron was getting started. Um, and then, you know, when it was hitting like, $600 a month. It was already enough to at least cover the rent and said the food And then, you know, as it grew, it sort of became an actual competitive Ah, Joe, where I no longer get said looks from other engineers.

Speaker 1

You know, many plans to make this some sort of business thinking like mass it on as a service. Like you've asked various questions about running a server, things like that.

Speaker 2

I have had that thought. Certainly, um, at the same time, at least right now, I don't want to strip spread myself too thin, because managing a business of hosting other people's websites is a big responsibility. And it is pretty much 24 7 thing because any time something could go wrong, and I'm already hosting my own server where that's the case.

So I mean, you know, don't don't want to just have too many responsibilities at once, but it's certainly an avenue for extra income. If I ever decide to do that sort of start software as a service where just over hosting. But right now, while I'm not doing it, there are others who feel that nation and on the joint Master Project website I linked to somebody who does that sort of thing Massive hosting under Masto Don't host And yeah, well, I'm not doing it.

Somebody else is doing it. So

Speaker 1

as when the question was like, OK, so if you're not doing it, is anybody or could somebody Is there anything that says you can't?

Speaker 2

No, you can absolutely do it. It's no problem with that

Speaker 1

Fully managed massive on hosting. This is that masto dot host Interesting sets right on your home page for Joint Master don dot org's Let's get to Maybe a more colorful side, which is naming right like the naming scheme of things is always kind of fun. Toot is what you call the object The thing that you put out there twit, Twitter has tweets mass it on Has toots How do you say that with a straight face? That's my question.

Speaker 2

I do know it's there with a straight face. Um, the history of toot is such that master did not start with it. Um in fact, at the beginning, Massimo didn't have any special words for posts. They were just status is or posts and the button for posting one just used to say publish. Uh, but then certain demographic came, and at first it was like one of the first waves of people were Dutch, and my memory is ready vague on this.

But I remember some form of Dutch word for tooting, which was something like Tetra or something like that. I'm probably mispronouncing it, but it was a suggested term for massive on posts. And then as about the third or fourth wave, Um, I don't remember how exactly started in the community, but I remember the specific person requested me or rather dared me to change the button to say to the day you were like, If you change this button to say to I will pledge to your patriot $5 forever So I took it up that I did it.

I didn't really realize that in some parts of America to is slang for farting, so that really didn't play a role. I mean, it's more like the sound that an elephant makes or the sound of a trumpet makes right, and I and I still think that's innocent enough. And, uh, it's really light hearted, so I don't really mind it.

Speaker 1

I'm even so much that the, you know, mastered on source code is under the or toot Sweet.

Speaker 2

Yeah, exactly. It's because the organization named Masterton was taken. So I had to improvise. And I was like, two suits,

Speaker 1

two suits. Okay, well, I'll tell you one thing, Eugene is that Adam night. Both live in that area of America wherein dude is definitely a, uh, vernacular for farting. So that's why we particularly both said What's with to

get that a lot? Yeah. Um, give me the case.

Speaker 2

Every so often somebody joins in post that picture from the doctor Doom comic where it says Dr Doom toots as he pleases. So I mean, it's it's unending fuel for those kind of jokes. And there

Speaker 1

Ah, well, let's talk about the future of Mass. Adan. We've talked about how we've gotten here and before, too. It is path some of the things that sets it apart as well as how awesome it is that you have a community and people that support you and sponsors and are able to work on this full time. Even pace. Um, moderators, What's the future look like? Do you have big plans? Is the is the idea formulated.

And now it's maintenance mode. You have huge growth opportunities. You know you're taking VC funding tells what's gonna happen.

Speaker 2

There's not gonna be any BC funding. I mean, I've built a lot off protections against the sort of thing from get from the get go, like the code is licensed are a GPL. So what this essentially means is that if you make any modifications to, if you have to publish those modifications, that means the company cannot take the code and just put something extra.

It it make it closed source and then remove the, uh, decentralization parts from it to sort of conquer in the market. That that sort of thing we wanted to guard against. And what this means is that well, unless you think, oh, this kind of worthless, you can't buy it, you can't acquire its and you certainly shouldn't invest VC money into it.

Um, so that's not happening.

Speaker 1

Unless you were in the business of managed hosting. That's true. Yes, if I wanted to build a

Speaker 2

business about that, but that would be distinctly different, too. Sure master itself. Esther features Recently, message on 2.5 came out I think it was a week ago, or maybe two weeks ago, and there were a lot off good features in That's that I've been planning for a long time. And that means that there's only a few big things that are still left to be implemented in the future.

And other than that, if indeed, is entering a sort of maintenance slash polishing mode where we care about improving the user experience and polishing things are rough or that are not good enough. But at the same time, no big new things not really not really interested in going too far away from the focus off the project because I don't want it to become, you know, sort of like a Swiss knife where you know where it's jacket, faux trades, but master of none.

You know, I I wanted to be focused on the things that it's good at, Um, but certainly if there are good suggestions from the community for new features or for changes, I'm always open to listening to those and, you know, evaluating whether that's something that we wanna engage with. Or maybe if it's not very good fit for the upstream project may be better fit for some kind of fork.

Um, one feature that we released in this 2.5 is set episodes. Something of podcasts Release, Um, is what I'm thinking off in the release. Is the federation really functionality? So this size back to the way medicine works with user subscriptions service don't generally subscribed to each other entirely. It's more about I follow my friend.

And so my server receives post from that friend. And what this means is that you have a brand new server. It can feel quite empty and perhaps, like a ghost town. So what does the Relais do? The really isn't you suggest this kind of like a semi centralized, uh, plumping system. But I would say where servers can subscribe to it and they start exchanging all public posts, regardless of who subscribes to whom.

And so this means that the new server could join a really and immediately received lots of fresh content all the time. So that's a solution to a problem that we've been hearing about for a while. The other big thing is account migration, as we've been talking about. It's kind of annoying at the time, but We want to make it more smooth and more natively supported so that you don't have to rely on people seeing your I have moved message so that you keep your followers and um, yeah, I think that's that.

I think that it's really just improving the user interface and maintaining solving bugs head side around. As for growth opportunities, well, I can never really predict that sort of thing. Um, it's kind of weird because, you know, I work in the Deer Elise for a very long time. I had some exciting new features that it comes out. Then you know, it doesn't make a big splash.

But then randomly, a few months later, nothing of note happens. But then there is a huge wave where, you know, 500,000 people joined, and it has nothing to do with anything I've been doing. So you know, I can't really predict that, but let's hope for the best. What about

Speaker 1

getting started for developers like anybody who's you know? Listen, this they're like, you know what? I've got community. I gotta slash and I've been kind of peeled about that has limited search ord. It's not my data or it could be anything else. Whatever. And someone like I think I should start an instance. What's the Is there getting sort of document or a guy that does this? I noticed that in your your get have profile, you have a vagrant instance.

I'm assuming that's probably for some local VM development like that. What's a good way to someone to get started on the hacker front of this

Speaker 2

to start developing? Well, um, if you're familiar with Ruby on rails, then you'll have a really easy time because methadone is just a rubio on Rand's application, and it follows the conventions as much as possible. Um, perhaps the service pattern that we're using us maybe a bit unconventional that the same time also, No, not really new to would be developers, and I think it quite elegantly encapsulates complex logic to, um, to classes that can be reasonably found if you're looking for them.

Um, if you're not familiar with rails, then it's perhaps a little more complicated because, you know, people say, well, rail stairs a little magic. Certainly your magic. It's more like just convention. You have to know where something is, how to get started you just check out the code from the get Hubbard posit Torrey, install the dependencies from yarn or NPM and, uh, plunder, and you're pretty much good to go for development.

Um, there is a four man command for just starting. Uphold the services. There's the weap process. There's a psychic process, which is the background processing units. Um, there is the streaming AP I written and no gs, and there is wept pack for compiling assets. So in development, you'd have those four running, and you have your You have your local running server and you can start hacking on the code, Uh, with life reload.

Um, as for running in production, there is a bit more involvement there. Um, there's guys. There's love guides for it, actually, um, but if you're if you're running on a bun toe, that's really easy. Because, um, all the guides or sir, oriented towards that system just because it's easier for us to focus three instructions on something that's pinned down there and be like, Oh, if you're on sent us, then you need this than your injury.

If you're on the door, you need something different. You know, we're just like If he is a bunch of hear the commands, you could practically just execute all of them in the right order. And you're good to go. So in production it involves you get the code, just like in development. You installed the dependencies, just like in development. The extra steps are you need system D service files for the processes instead of using four men, so you'd have a system dif unit for the web Croesus unit for a sidekick in the unit for streaming A P I.

You will need to sell a push Grass scale server. Uh, sorry database. It could be a different server. It doesn't matter. You need to read this, and you need engine ICS or Apache. Um, as, ah, load balancers slash reverse boxing fronts. And you do you to get a s south certificate from Let's encrypt and that's it. That's your good to go.

Speaker 1

Sounds pretty straightforward for most real developers out there. And if you're not, I'm sure you heard rails get familiar and hack on this. Well, it's been fun kind of catching up with the Jared, You know it. It's kind of interesting because I feel like we're often earlier to a game or two. A topic then we have with this topic kind of Filic were delayed.

But I almost feel like we're perfect on time because, you know, there's just been so much progress. It's like we were a little earlier. Would it? It would have been a similar conversation, but just not enough. Not enough for Eugene to walk us through in terms of where the communities at, like the direction they have now is, I feel like, gives us a better conversation here today.

I thought you were gonna say we're slacking, but now you're saying we're doing perfect. We're doing what we are doing. I felt we were slack a little bit, but I kind of feel it is a perfect nous. I like it. I'm excited about that. Well, I just think that this conversation now doesn't feel late. Me At first I was like, Geez, we kind of missed the boat Talking about massed on forever go like we really did.

But I feel like the runway you have even the community have Eugene has just been great. So good timing, in my opinion. So any closing thoughts for those listening, thinking about you know anything? We may have gone through any closing thoughts for you. Let you go. Sure, you mastered on join Massive Don join master don dot Warg Go there, Check it out.

Eugene, Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's great being here.

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