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LegalZoom is a fantastic way for you to take care of legal issues online in the comfort of your own home or office on your time whenever you want to do it. Attorneys are fucking expensive, right? You'll likely pay around $300 an hour. Trump is probably more. I pay more. Michael Coin's worth more. He'll take a bullet for me. Um, it's just one reason why smart business owners turned to LegalZoom. In fact, we formed on its first L L C with LegalZoom. That's right, sweet bitches. Over two million Americans have used LegalZoom to start their businesses again with Elsie's Inc and Maur. But even after your businesses set up,

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I bet they're fucking awesome. And I was right. I was fucking right. Ah, brilliant guy. Ah, he's a doctor. He specializes in longevity, but he's also been a competitive cyclist. Boxer Ah, he swam from fucking We talked about this the beginning to positive podcasts. Swim from Maui, Tolan I and back Jesus and not on a cruise ship either. Like if you're on a cruise ship, that wouldn't be nearly as impressive where the entire time I was in the hole. No,

Uh, brilliant guy really enjoyed this conversation and, you know, it started off kind of fun. And then, man, we got into a groove somewhere deep, and we start talking about medicine, and then you get to see his true excellence. So it was really always fascinate to be when I'm talking to someone and they seem like a smart, normal person, and then they talk further and you go, Oh, you're a fucking genius. You're one of those sneaky geniuses because he's a handsome, sneaky genius.

Uh, really enjoyed this conversation. So please give it up for Peter Audio. Joe Rogan Experience. Join my Joe Rogan. What's going on, man? You were just telling me something that what is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard? That you swam from Maui to Lynne? I right. And you're the one of only humans ever do that

I am told I was the first person to swim from Maui to, and I and back the other one way is a pretty famous swim race that's done every year.

You're the first person to do it around. Go back. Fuck, Dude, why'd you do that? How long you got it started When I was a boy, they told me I couldn't do it. What made you want to do that? It's a ridiculous proposition.

So I got in tow. I decided in this'll sound silly. I read a book in January of 2004 about this woman named Penny Dean, who still, to this day holds the record for the fastest crossing of the Catalina Channel. So swimming from Catalina Island to San Pedro R. Thio, you typically swimming to point point the scent and she had done it in, like, seven hours and 20 minutes. And I was like, That's amazing. I want that as a crow flies. It's 21 miles with the currents. It's a little longer. And I was like, You know, I really want to do this, but I gotta learn how to swim first.

That seems so. That's that's three miles an hour swimming.

She is a fee. Nam Penny Dean had a stroke rate of 90 strokes per minute, which means that might not mean anything to someone who doesn't swim but like to turn to have a hand hit the water every you know, third of 2/3 of a second is a remarkable thing. Yeah, I can't hold the cadence of that for 100 yards.

Wow. And she did it for 20 miles. What a beast. She's out of control. There's certain people like that. Man, that freaked me out. I think

I think marathon swimming might be one sport Where if you just look at the numbers, I think women are better

than men. Well, there's that woman who swam from Cuba to the United States, right? She was the first person ever. And she didn't she do it, like at a fairly advanced

age? Yeah. I mean, she's, of course, got an amazing pedigree of swimming. And this wasn't her first rodeo,

right? Right, Right. Why? Why do you think women are better than men? That's that. I mean,

those of us that I'm not a member of this community anymore, But when I was, it was one of our favorite topics of discussion. I think think opportunities are ideas that were put forth were higher pain, tolerance. Something about being, you know, evolving to be able to give birth, um just means they can tolerate pain a lot higher. Um, I think another thing I've heard is buoyancy. You know, women are naturally gonna have more body fat, which provides insulation. When you do these swims, you're not allowed any wetsuits or aids of any sort.

So shorts, you're like you're in a Speedo

and a single latex cap, and that's it. And so if you could have a little and so I think women's hips because they're gonna have more fat on their hips, they it corrects one of the big buoyancy issues that we have in swimming way. We didn't evolve to swim, were horrible at it. Naturally, because we swim like this, we drag our hips through the water. And if you think about the importance of aerodynamics in most of the things that we think about, whether it be archery or race, car driving or cycling, you know in water it's that much more important because the density of water is, you know, thousands of times greater than air. So swimming is just 100% about avoiding drag.

Wow. So that well, that totally makes sense. Um, I just have been fascinated forever with people that are capable of pushing their brain to do things that other people just don't think it possible. Like a you know, big foot, 200 race or any of those things. But the swim one is particularly crazy because you can't stop, right? Right. Like if you're running an ultramarathon, you just want to sit down for a couple of minutes and just take a break. You can do that. But if you're swimming, there's not a goddamn thing you could do. You

could tread. Water is

about as good as it gets, but you can't

touch the boat or the kayaker. It's an immediate disqualification.

Oh, God, that's so crazy, Matt. That is such a wow. So you heard about this woman doing And

that's why I read this book and I was like, I really want to do this. At the time I was I was actually in my residency in Baltimore and I was like, You know, I really want to do this, and I'm gonna have to learn how to swim to do it. So I start taking swimming lessons, and then, um, that means having a very long story short. Basically, by about this summer of 2005 I entered my first swim race, which was a two mile swim race in Lake Rest in Virginia. And I did it. I was like, Oh, my God,

I just swim two miles in the open water. It was hard, but I was like, Okay, that's the proof of concept. Now you just got to figure out how to make it 2025 miles and ah, so I just, you know, went completely psycho and ratcheted up the training. And and then in October of 2005 I did my first Catalina swim.

Wow, that's got to be a pretty good feeling that when you're done that you are capable pushing yourself toe what most people think is an impossible distance. Yeah, I mean, people

you asked a moment ago, Why do you do this? I would say that in life, velocity means very little acceleration means everything. So what do I mean by that? Right, like if you're going 650 miles an hour in an airplane, you don't actually feel it. You only feel when speed changes. So I've always had this theory that emotionally that's also true, like happiness is only interesting when it's juxtaposed with sadness. And so the feeling of crawling on the shore after you've been swimming for 12 to 14 hours is amazing. But what makes it especially amazing is that six hours earlier you thought you were gonna die. So you start thes swims in the middle of the night to avoid the shipping traffic. So that first swim boat drops you off Catalina Island. It's midnight. That's a darkness you can't imagine. Like you can't even see L. A from Catalina. You have to swim for six hours before you even see the lights of Los Angeles.

Really? Yeah. What do you see?

The stars and the phosphor like bioluminescent organisms in the water. Whoa. Just incredible. I mean, that's worth the price of admission. So every time your hand comes through the water, you're pulling and ripping these little things and you're seeing the sparks and you can't tell where the water ends in the sky starts. In other words, the stars and the bioluminescence looks like one cylinder. Wow. So for the first few hours, that's cool. But then, you know, my first swim. The water was incredibly rough. Um, I had only swim in the ocean for two weeks before the swim, I did all my training

in a swimming pool. So in a lake on the east coast. So now I Look,

I wasn't used to how to keep the salt water out of my mouth. Right? So then I was, like, puke ing my guts out. And then my

while you were swimming your guts out, Yeah. How does that

work? You just stop and puke and then

keep swimming on.

And then, uh, but then my tongue started to get really swollen from the salt water because again, as I would learn later on, I would go on to do many more of these swims. But what I learned is the importance of spitting the water out of your mouth very quickly. So in a in a freshwater pool or lake, you get away with more. But in the ocean, you swallow that salt water, you're gonna get sick as hell. So all this stuff going on, so bye, five in the morning. You've been summoned for five hours. You're getting cold. You're I mean,

you know, frankly, just physiologically like your cortisol levels are at an aide or you're just you feel horrible. It's like it's a really bad feeling and you're not even halfway there. And it's like you don't know if you can do it in bubble. What? Well, if six hours later, you're now crawling out of the water, feeling like you've done this amazing thing, that that's emotional

acceleration, that's like the greatest contrast I know. You're so I mean, I've never experienced that, but I was, ah, explaining the other day to a friend of mine about this Ah, camping trip that we went on in Montana when it was nine degrees outside. It's freezing cold. We're stayed out there for 56 days. And then when we finally got to a hotel room, I took a shower and it was the most amazing shower I've ever experienced in my life, and that's a small thing. But you take a shower every day, and it's a big deal down.

You do it in that setting, or think about the meal you've had. If you've been

fast, similar situation, we're starving or lost it, see? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can't imagine. That's so now that you've done how many of these have you done these crazy? He swim races or swim. That means called them several. Yeah, Usually

these major major ones are not racist. You're on your own. You have Thio. You go to the federation that oversees that body of water, and you say, Hey, I want to do this and then you You know, you go through all the channels to do it like they have to have an observer there, and they follow these officials

so that you can be registered as someone who's actually completed it.

Right, And someone's there to make sure you didn't You know, you did it correctly? Um, I don't know. Probably done all in. Probably like a dozen of these, but probably like six of them really long

ones. What's the longest? Well, that's a good question. What is the The mallee One was 20 miles there and back. So 40 miles total, it's

the Maui Channel is a 10 mile channel, so round trip is 20. The bigger question is time in the water because you rarely get to swim these in a straight line. So the Maui Lanai one I wanted to go Maui, Lanai, Molokai, Maui to do the triangle. And that would have been 30 miles as a crow flies, but we just, you know, boat captain wasn't willing to do it at night because of the tiger Sharps. And during the daytime, we couldn't physiologically figure out how one could suffer against those the wind, because the wind gets so brutal in the middle of the day. So even the one that I did, which was just there and back, I ended up swimming for 12 hours because on the first way,

crossing where there was no wind took me four hours. And then it took eight hours to get back because I was swimming like the high pot news of a triangle, right? Like parents going this way. So I had to swim this way just to go in a straight

line and I still kid, I almost missed Maui. Jesus

Christ. I almost got swept out to Molokai just because the current was about 1.7 knots, which is about as fast as I can swim. Maybe two knots.

Fuck, That is a ridiculous thing, man. Why you doing this? Is thistles the maniacal Well, I

don't do it anymore. It was certainly Ah, it was an amazing season of my life. But I think once my daughter was born, which was 10 years ago this summer, that's when I I only probably did two of these after she was born, because then the training just got So I just You gotta live in the water If you want to do this sport like you got a including the winter, you know, like, you know, even in San Diego where I live, it's still, you know, 55 degrees in the water and you're gonna spend 34 hours a day in the water freezing. You know, it's just so I was like, you know, I just don't have the drive to spend 25 hours a week swimming.

What was the what was going on in San Diego when that guy got bit in half by a shark a couple years back, they were training for something.

Yeah, that's funny. You remember that? That was May of 2008. I remember that like it was yesterday. So at the time I lived in San Francisco, and this is actually just before I swim the Maui thing. Now that I think about it, that was 10 years ago. I swim the Maui thing in June of 06 June of Oh, wait. So I'm doing all my training in a swimming pool up in San Francisco because I don't want to acclimated to very cold water, actually want to be in warm water. But I needed one long ocean swim of, like, 14 or 15 miles as my like last training swim. So it came down to San Diego to do it.

And just by bad luck, I came down a few days after that guy was killed. Now this was ah, guy. I didn't know him, but he was a triathlete, training with a travel on group that they would go out and swim every morning. And I know the beach exactly where it happened in Solano Beach. And unfortunately, like most people who get attacked by great whites, they have a very they always attack the same way which is below and behind stealth bite up, and then they retreat. So they're trying to basically injured the praise of their prey, exsanguination. And then they take off and then they wait till you bleed out. So they never saw the shark.

But you could tell from the bite marks It was, um, actually had a friend who was on the beach and saw him when he came out, and he was basically dead. When he got to shore, he had he had bled to death. The problem is, so in this case, the shark had bid him and cut through his femoral arteries and veins. And the salt water prevents you from having any team a Stasis, so it exacerbates the blood loss. So that's generally how folks

Parish, when there had a great William out of the

water. Um, you know, a bunch of other swimmers came to his rescue, and luckily that commotion prevents the sharks from wanting to come back. So three days later, I go out and I'm swimming at that beach because I swam from Mike. My training swim was La Hoya up to Solano Beach and back. And I got to tell you, like, three days after a guy dies where you're swimming, it is It was about one of the most mentally challenging training swims to be like because you can't see like the water at that part of the beach is so murky. You know, when you're only a couple 100 yards offshore that, like you can barely see your hands when you're swimming. Um, and so you're just thinking it's just the day.

Who? Yeah, I'm not interested in that. I can't see why. There's just something about sharks to mean there to me, One of the most terrifying thing for its first of all, we're so inept in the water. I mean, even a person like, use a great swimmer. Yeah, we're joke. Yeah. What? We are in comparison to what they are. It's just you're you're throwing yourself into the world of a super predator and to know that one just jacked a person just a few days before and you're out there swimming around. Yeah. Although I will say

this, you know, when it's all said and done, all of the close encounters I've had, probably the scariest moment I've ever had in the water was doing a swim from Santa Rosa to Santa Barbara. So Santa Rosa Island, which is the second furthest North Channel island you got San Miguel, Santa Rosa, Santa Cruz, Anacapa represent the top four channel islands. So we did this November swim. It was nighttime thing again swimming from Santa Rosa island to Santa Barbara and, ah, at about five in the morning, maybe six in the morning. You're just starting to get enough light where you can see and you're out there. So you really have amazing visibility.

And I looked down probably 40 feet and I see this enormous thing swimming like this, which is how sharks swim. And I see the dorsal fin in the position that freaks me out and the tails this way that all of that is shark, right? And I like, you know, like lift up out of the water, kind of hyperventilate for a second. And I'm thinking to myself, All right, you got to make a judgment call here. If that's really a great white, you probably ought to get out of the water. But if you the moment you out of the water, that's it. The swimmers over,

like you just spent like months doing this like it's run. So then I convinced myself, and I think I'm right. I think it was a dolphin on its side because a dolphin inside it's Finn would its tail fin would be the same way, and it could swim that way. So in the end. I just kept swimming, but I mean, that scared the shit out of me.

Well, they have seen quite a few of them off the coast of Malibu. There's tons. There's no question

that there there they are way more plentiful than we realize. And all you do is talk to the fishermen like the fishermen will tell you. They're like, you look off, Coronado. I mean, it's like there's nonstop.

Great weights. Really? Oh, yeah. Why you freaking me out, Peter? Theo. Good news is

they see us all the time, and most the time they realize we're not what they want. Yeah, they want seals. Yeah, that whenever they attack us, they're making a mistake.

Now, is there a like a suit you can wear Kevlar suit to protect, protects you from getting bitten in half? No, but this is so funny. You bring this up.

I became obsessed with this thing called the, uh What was it called? Christ, You put the thing on your ankle like you had, like, a little Velcro thing you'd wrapped on your ankle and had a tail like this long, you know, like four foot long thing. And it was charged, and it sends out an electrical impulse that disturbs the shit out of the sharks. The shark's nose is an organ that sends his electricity, so when a shark like that it could be pitch black, it could be set water, and they can still scope you, you know, from hundreds of yards away, based on the electrical activity of your heart and that organise their nose.

So this little thing I forget what was called like the shark, Taser or some shit. It puts out a signal that, like tase, is them and they don't want

to get within like, Oh, there it is James appear the world's first shark deterrent. Bands called the Shark bands one on the wrists or ankles. I

thought I had a different name, but because the one that I was going to get and did a ton of research into had a really long tail hanging off it, and that became the problem.

Eases patented magnetic technology to repel sharks, so the tail was a problem because of the two drag.

No, because it would sound silly, but it would come up and zap you in the nuts,

so they became unbearable to practice swimming in this thing because you're like everything. 37 seconds, you'd get zapped by the tail, and I was just like, I like how it says reduce the risk. Oh, yeah. Hey, can I get some numbers, please? Just reduced by how much? By 17 For statistically. Um, and it also is a leash for your surfboard to You could use one of those to trap it to your strap it to your ankle. Yeah. No, um,

it's gonna come to me like in an hour. I'll remember with this silly things,

Jamie, A fraud. Find it off, Catalina. I know it's one of the best shark fishing places in the world. Have a friend of mine told me that if you think about, like wild places on earth that are just overrun with predators terrifying, like predator prey activity, Catalina Island is one of the top spots in the world. I was like, What are you talking about? He's like, I'm telling you, man, the shark fishing off Catalina Island is fucking insane. And then I watched a television show, just,

you know, synchronicity a couple days later, and it was these guys shark fishing off a Catalina's. Like what? In the fuck I could have never guessed the catching make owes

mostly, yeah, and and it's actually my recollection because we swam around Catalina once a cz. Well, the backside is way more aggressive than the front side.

Decide that faces the Pacific side. That rather than face.

That's right. Yeah, there's

way. Morning. Crazy stuff. Yeah, I think that's exactly where they were. Yeah, it looked pretty nuts. I mean, they were bringing in these 15 foot sharks. I mean, I was like, What the fuck is just floating around out there? You know, it's Ah, I mean, I guess of course they are, right.

I mean, it's Ah, there's a lot of fish out there as well, so I'm sure the Catalina is amazing. Pretty crazy,

though, is I? I'd swim to it. I'd swim from it. IEDs from around that I'd done nothing, and I never stepped foot on it, except at the beginning or end of a swim. Until five years ago, I went there for a vacation, like actually just went to Avalon for three days. I'm like, it's not a place I could live a little. You know too quiet, but for three or four days, it was

amazing. I think people hunt on Catalina. They got huge buffalo there. Is that what it is?

Yes. Apparently, there was a movie that was made there back in the twenties

or something like that. Just let a bunch of buffalo

Well, they had a bunch of buffalo yet for the movie,

and I guess they never liked Corral or some shit has totally overrun with buffalo. Well, there was one of the channel islands that they had actually turned into a bow hunting destination like they had brought in a bunch of dear, I think they brought in stags and a bunch of weird, exotic shit and they put him on this island. I think they even had elk. And then biologists just weren't having it there like this is just so out of whack. And there's so they have them eradicated. And the way they do that is it's pretty gruesome. They just gunned down from the air and just leave the bodies. Yeah, they just decided that they were invasive species, regardless of how valuable they might have been. Two people that want to go there and eat them. You know, they just decided, just for the ecosystem alone.

Just there's no predators there. And then we're gonna turn the fucking island, the Wild Kingdom, and bring wolves or something in there. It would be pretty goddamn crazy. Magic. There was an island go, and they just had wolves and elk running around on island.

Well, that's it. I'm surprised they would got them all down. At least say make it open season for hunting

or something like that could have been productive. They That's an interesting perspective. So biologists look at it in terms of the entire ecosystem right there, looking in terms of the plants, the amount of waste, fecal waste that these animals were leaving behind. The fact they're literally eating everything that they can on the sound. They're not supposed to be there. And then they're competing with whatever things are native to that island and probably, I mean, you've got £1000 elk. It's not supposed to be on a fucking island. This thing's just eating everything. It can and they don't. They don't have a winter either. So it's just like the whole like they're just not supposed to be there. The Channel

Islands themselves are kind of amazing. I mean, most people know of Catalina, but you know, there's eight of them and not two of them. You can't step foot on.

I think it is

allowed to know San Clemente and San Nicholas through military bases. Okay, so we tried to do a swim from San Nicholas back to Los Angeles. This is a relay swim, because it's like an 85 mile swim. And I spent like, six months researching it. Speaking to a bunch of naval officers, I was like, Hey, is there any way we can cause you officially To have to start a swim, you have to be able to touch dry land and be out of the water. And they're like, Yeah, you can't come on the island. So in the end, what we decided was we were just going to a stealth landing,

you know, by the time they came down and screamed at us and shot it as we have been off the island. But, uh, then we got to the on Now the other big thing of it, Sand Nick, is that's real shark territory, because that's where the elephant seals live. So when we got out there, we literally could not get to shore because of the elephant seals. Like we're 200 yards off sand neck. And, you know, it's after taking a full two days to get out there. I mean, this place is really hard to get,

too, because the water is brutal and you're not in a huge boat and ah, yeah, you're looking at, like £1000 elephant seals that are just like licking their chops, looking at you, trying to get in the water.

What would they do with you?

I didn't want to find

out, but they're not predatory. I mean, I don't

think No, I mean, I think they're aggressive. Is

hell. Did you see that video of the little girl that's sitting on a dock and a seal jumps up and grabs her in the ass and pulled her into the water? You see that, Jamie? Yeah, and I didn't think that seals ever did something like that before.

I don't know. I did see a special once about how dolphins could be kind of aggressive with each other like they could harm. You know, you could do this

says Seal sitting there and this girl see line, Actually, look at this. It comes up and they think that. See what? So cute? Yeah. Oh, my. But I think it was probably looking for a handout. And these people weren't giving it to her, and she turns her. But she is. Yeah. Fuck that thing, E. I feel like I'd be right back.

Fill that fucking puddle with lead. That was your kid? Oh, yeah, Yeah. They jumped up fast. Yeah, they're they're predators. I mean, being the things you know, the 19 plants in the water, they're eating fish and shit, you know, whatever they could get ahold of. They probably birds and stuff, too.

Probably used to scoop things up, but I bet that what that's from is them getting to acclimated to people pr feeding him. Never. There's ah, they have an issue in Boulder. Where, um, Boulder is Ah, you're been Colorado. Yeah. Beautiful, Gorgeous, super liberal, like as progressive as it gets right in San Francisco. Have? Yeah,

I think Boulder is right up there, but there's less people and their you know, everyone's really healthy and active and hiking and stuff like that they don't allow hunting for mountain goats on the weekends because there's so many people hiking and going that they don't want people killing these mountain goats in front of him because people freak out, even though they have decided that they have to control the population and kill a certain number of them. Um, but so many people go out there that these things aren't scared of people. So it's created this really weird situation where if you are hunting them, you're almost hunting something that's domesticated. People feed him Cheetos so much so that a friend of mine was talking about it, that he was up there with his daughter. His daughter opened up a bag of Cheetos and the goat walked right to a wild goat, lives out in the fucking woods, walked right up to his daughter and they were laugh, and she opened up the bag of Cheetos and put it, and he stuffed his head in the bag of Cheetos. He knew what to d'oh!

And he said, This guy who was talking about this is a hunter, and he's like this fucking goat has, like Cheeto dust all over its face like It's the craziest thing. Its face is all red with Cheeto dust, and it's sitting there chewing the cheat like it's done it before. Yeah, and it's just that that goat had diabetes. Probably eventually, right? Yeah, I was in Costa Rica is another similar situation, and we were staying at this four seasons out there, and the monkeys have gotten very custom to people being there. And so, um,

they come by and they hang out and they're like, trying to get things from you. And, um, my daughter opened up a package Orioles and the monkey just jumped onto this little ledge like a couple feet away from her. And, uh, and my wife was like, I really don't think it's a good idea that we feed this thing Oreos. And I said, Well, you know, it's probably gonna get eaten by a fucking crocodile anyway. I mean, it's gonna poisoning. Is that what you're thinking?

It's not gonna eat this every day. It's not gonna be a normal part of its diet, but we hand the monkey and Oreo. It pops open the Oreo and starts chewing on the frosting like a little kid. And then we're like, Oh, this little fucker probably gets these things every week.

Right? So begs the question. Does he know how to do that? Because he's watched some human do it or we innately wired to do that with Oreos.

I think he knows how to do it. Because someone's given him Oreos so many times that he knows that the good stuff, the good stuff, the middle, they just sell that pig sock. I don't think I think I think the middle is only good because you can

You can contrast it with the comes back

to the contrast. Exactly. I think you're right.

I think you're really right. I think it was just pure metal would be pretty gross.

Yeah, they probably sold pure middle. Nobody would buy it. But if they sold those black cookies by themselves, no one by those roast things either Biscuits. Worst cookies like those. Couldn't you eat the white stuff? You like a rally? This stupid ass black cookie? It's the sunk cost and cold cooking. Here is there's a little monkey doing it. Look, they grab it from you and then just fucking love or a look. Look at him opening up immediately open it up and start chewing that white stuff. I'm alive. Yeah, crazy we had,

um there's a thing that is called a Kawada Monday. Have you ever heard of those? It's ah, it's related to the raccoon. It's this weird animal that lives mostly in central and South America. And it has a northern range that extends into Arizona all the way up in the mace. I think, um, like, it gets into the areas where it gets cold. But Arizona, I think, is the only state in the US that has it. But is this weird looking monkey raccoon thing that is so domesticated that we gave it some grapes? Here it is. Hm.

We gave it some grapes. And this little fucker There it is. I mean, look at that weird little thing. It came and sat. We had, like, a little patio area in the hotel room, and he came and sat down with us. It's so calm that it sat and went underneath one of the chairs and took a nap after we gave it some grapes. Like what? We're hanging around. My daughters were running around making noise, and this thing's just chilling like a pet. It was a total pet was a total pet. Yeah,

there they are. They're cool, man. Weird looking things. People eat them. Apparently. Apparently they hunt them in Arizona nachos. Yeah. I mean, after seeing this is just like, I don't think I could hunt that. I have to be pretty hungry. Eat when I was They're so cute. No face. Weird little animal men. Really interesting. Yeah. Our relationship with animals is very odd when they get into close proximity.

Yeah, we've got a wicked coyote problem in San Diego, and at least in the part I live in and, you know, just one of those things. Once we got rid of mountain Lions because nobody wants mountain lions around the coyotes run amok.

Is that what it is?

I think that mean that's talking in front of mine about this the other day, actually, and he was saying that there's probably only like in our neighborhood, there's probably, like, two mountain lions left and the the coyotes just they've exploded. There were so many of them around like it doesn't really bother me that much. I mean, I could kind of like listening to them howl. But, you know, if you if they get in your chicken coop

Yeah, I had one killed chickens just a few weeks ago. I have, ah, video of dead chickens. Such a bummer, man. We chased it away. It was on the roof of the chicken coop. The way they jump is so stunning, like they're so graceful. Like I've never seen anything that moves like that in the wild the way a coyote does. They There's a six foot fence. It's on the ground. It jumps to the top of the six foot fence, almost like it's. It's under different gravity rules than us and touches the top of the fence.

And then, boom, it's on the top of the chicken coop. I mean in like a second haven't seen that. It's crazy. I have video of one of them jumping my fence. Um, I caught one of them with a chicken in his mouth, jumping the fence, jumped a six foot fence with a chicken in his mouth. Just jump Boyne, touch the top of the fence with its front paws, back paws, went over right behind it and was gone. It's crazy, but,

you know, look they? We need them. We need them to kill the rabbits and the rats. And if we didn't, we'd have a giant like, Here's

what I tell my daughter because she she, like, gets all stressed out these coyotes and walking around our house. And I was like, Well, first of all, the pretty skittish of us and, boy, they keep those rodents under

control. They really d'oh, You need him for that. But there's a coyote problem across the country that the only animal that's in every single state in every single city. Now in every single city there's. There's coyotes in Manhattan. Come on. I'm not bull shitting in the park. They found them in the park. They found them in the Bronx. They found them in abandoned buildings. Yeah, there's a great book I read called Coyote America by a past guest of the podcast team. Dan Flores. He's a wildlife historian, so it's fascinating. They're a really,

really unusual animal in that when you shoot one, they yell out, Here's this wizard's coyotes in New York City. Look at this in fucking New York City, dude. His New York City New York City Police Department Coyote running down the street. Yeah, they're everywhere, man. They have a real problem with him in Chicago. I thought I could escape

them when I'm in New York.

No, you can't escape them anywhere. There in all 50 states now, they've completely extended their range. And the reason why they extended their range is because we we went after them. We hunted them down, you know, they were able to eradicate wolves, and the way they were able to eradicate wolves is they would kill the Alfa, and then they would take an animal like a horse. They would shoot it, and then they would fill it up with strict nine. And so then they would rub the Alfa the body of the Alfa all over this, this carcass of the horse and then the other wolves would come in, smell that the Alfa had been there, and then they would eat the wolf or eat the horse rather and die. And so they were able to do this and essentially use this method,

plus shooting them and things like that to eradicate them from the West. Because of ranchers and cattle farmers, they've never even been able to do that with coyotes when you shoot a coyote. If they do roll, call when you hear them yelling. If one of them is missing, it sends the females. It sent some sort of a signal where their bodies produce more pups. So if one's missing, instead of having, like, three pubs shall have six. So you make more coyotes when you kill them, and they extend the range. When you persecute them, they just extend the range.

It's for their fucking crazy animal. They are wicked smart, man. They've been chewing at the roof of my chicken coop trying to get in. I came outside the other night. My dog, I have Ah, have three dogs, but one of them is a golden retriever, and that dog has fucking zero instincts. I mean, it's it is just up. It's a little human. It's like it's like a little marshmallow. It's just, Yeah,

he's fun. No, go running with the stuff. He's a great dog, Sweetheart of a dog. Great pet. But like he's like, What's going on over there? What's happening in this fucking coyote on the roof? Dude, what do you mean, what's going on over there? They're literally chewing the shingles off the rule. Your job outside of one job to do you bark. He's Ah, not interested.

He's just going on a year old, too. But he's just curious. You know? It's, ah, it's It's very weird living in proximity with all these things because where I live, you know, we have a lot of hawks, glass, owls, a lot of coyotes and occasionally amount line I've seen I saw a bobcat once, which is pretty interesting.

I've never seen one of those there

were looking. So we're looking thing to see one of a friend of mine. Um, I put it up on Instagram Seaview. Find it. It's fucking old. It's an old one on Instagram. A friend of mine had a coyote or a bobcat break into her chicken coop and kill every one of her chickens And the coyote. There it is. Look at that fucking freaky bitch. How'd you find it so quick? You're an animal. Jamie is a bobcat. Get the best searching skills of all time. But look at that. That's in my friend's chicken coop. He said a bunch of murdered chickens scattered around it.

You look in that thing's face. Yeah. Fuck that. That look is fuck you. Yeah. That Look, it's fuck you, lady. Yeah. Killed your chickens while you have them outside. Who? Crazy man. So how do you know Jocko? This is how we got connected. Yeah. Folks at home. So Jonah's, like, prepare to get your brain blown out. I'm gonna send my friend over ice.

All right, let's do it. So, uh, I met Jocko through one of my really close friends, a guy named Kirk Parsley, who's also a Navy seal, former seal. And, um, Kirk said, Hey, you got to meet my friend Jacques. Basically, just like you guys. You gotta meet Jocko. You have to experience Jocko.

That was basically it was like a ride. Yeah. Eso eso

I'm at Jocko. We obviously connected pretty quickly. And then, um

I think,

Oh, this was before Jock O's book had come. His 1st 1st book had come out, and I said, I gotta introduce you to one of my best friends. Got Tim Ferriss, who? Obviously, you know, Tim, and because time is always looking for, you know, a great guest on a podcast. And so I called him and I said Look, you gotta just trust me on this one sight unseen. Just have Jocko come to San Francisco next week. I just want to say anything else. It will be worth it. And likely, I had enough credit in the

bank with 10. My God,

I've been successful on enough sight, unseen recommendations, but I think the Jacko was the best one ever because he called me after coming while Jocko was still there. And he's like, Yeah, that was pretty

intense. Yeah, I sent him an email after that podcast. Mike, that's one of the best podcast I've ever heard in my life. And I made a post about it. Jocko responded to the post, and then I got Jocko on and then I end. Tim convinced Jocko to do his own podcast, and now it's huge. I mean his podcast. I get text messages all the time from people thanking me for telling them to listen to it. And then I get tweets from people thanking me for talking Jocko into doing it, because it's just there's that just just there's out liars in this world, you know, in everything there's out. Liars in athletics is out.

But when it comes to like discipline and motivation. And just just when you look at someone who's just undeniable, like Jock was one of those guys, he's just undeniable. He's

a specimen. He's definitely off the graph.

Yeah, I met him a long time ago when he was training with Dean Lister, and Dean was fight in the UFC. Remember meeting him? And I'm like, What's that guy's deal? Certain dudes that have got the whole lot of shit going on behind their eyes, You know, a good cake. I seen some stuff, you know?

Yeah. I'll tell you a funny Jocko story. I don't think I guess I can tell the story in public. It's pretty funny. So Jocko is in New York just after his book came out And, um, you know this And I was like, Look, I want to I want to do something like my my buddies who run hedge funds here because some a lot of what Jacko does is that, you know, he and his partner, like they consult with guys like this doing leadership stuff. And so we went up to the offices of one of my friends who has this very famous hedge fund and his office is like on the 50th floor on Park, and it's looking. It's like a beautiful view down park. And we were just sitting there in his office, just shooting the shit,

and I forget how it came up. But somehow, um, we were just talking about like, like, how good is a sniper like, what does it actually take? And, um And then, of course, we're talking very specifically about I can't even blinking on his name. Chris. Um, Bradley Cooper played him in. Yeah, Chris Kyle because because Chris Kyle had been part of Jacko's team.

I forget which seal team. Maybe it was when he was seal Team two, but in fact, I think Jocko said he goes, you know? Yeah, Chris was a part of my team for Maura, of his Kills than any of his other kills. And so then we're like, like what sets him apart? I mean, obviously, any Navy SEAL sniper has got to be amazing. But Chris took it to another level. What was it? And he and he said,

Okay, let me show you what it waas. So he said, because we walk this over to the window and he goes, Okay. You see that guy in that hat over there? Like, about a mile down the, You know, you could basically see because, like, a pink hat or something said, Yeah, he goes. Okay, if you're a sniper,

you gotta be able to lay down, not move, and put your eye up against this thing and, like, look out at him and you can't. If you ever take your eye off that, you're gonna lose the site. So you gotta be able to stay in that position, and I'm moving to it. He goes, And I forgot the number was, but Jacko said the average Navy SEAL sniper can stay in that position without moving. I glued to the site for X number of minutes and I forget what the number was. Maybe was like, 15 minutes. He's like,

Chris could do that for two hours. He could lay in that position, not moving and not taking his eye off that thing with one eye shut for hours. You know, he's just like you. Just she had a different He just had a different gear, and it was just an amazing I mean, I mean those are Some of my favorite moments with Jocko is when he, like, tell you something that is like like, we're like maybe three people in the world that would understand why that matters. You know,

sniping is fat is really fascinating, right? Because just sharpshooting, just being able to shoot something at a distance and long distance shooting is Ah, it's It's a big sport mean for in terms of target shooting. Mean there's guys that are out there, the shooting 1500 yards and doing it competitively. That's a crazy distance. Amazing. It's crazy distance, but when you think about it, you got a rifle, it's on arrest. You're sitting, you're either on a bench or you're prone or whatever it is, you're lying down. Most of the time,

this is all it is. It's this with your finger pull, pull, pull, pull, pull, boom! Some people are way better at that. Just think of it coordinating your vision, getting the radical set on the target, pulling that and without movement, the out liars are the people who could do that. And you gotta think like when you when you break down physical movements, right, like you watch the gymnastics routine. The Olympics like holy shit and it flips and the land and they stick.

And it's incredible. But now break it down to just the movement of your trigger finger pull, pull, pull, pull, pull paying. No movement, you know? I mean, it's I'm sure you've shotguns, but it's hard to like if you shoot pistols and you have dummy rounds. You know, like a lot of people in the mix in dummy rounds so that they find out they're jerking the trigger. And when you see, like, I was watching a video with Tim Kennedy and Tim Kennedy was shooting at the range and he's he's pulling bang,

bang, bang, and it goes Click And he goes, Well, look at that trigger control like because it was He put the way he pulled it. It didn't go off target. It didn't move. It was there was no punch to it, you know. But you gotta fucking practice forever. Just to be able to do that, just to not anticipate the recoil of the gun and yank and move and twitch and just controlling the mind. I mean, it's a fascinating thing to me that just just pulling this one finger. You would think fucking anybody could do that. I could show you how to do that,

You know, like like I've had friends and say they want to go hunting. Uh, you know, I want to go hunting. You know? What would I do where I get a boat? I'm like, slow down. Let's get your rifle. Because I could teach you how to shoot a rifle. We could We could get someone we could cite in your rifle. Go to the range was sighted in and 100 yards. Get your good, accurate rifle. And then all you have to do is kind of keep it together.

A rifle. We get into 100 yards of a wild pig, you're gonna be able to kill this thing 100%. You got years before you gonna be able to shoot that thing with a bow. I mean, fucking years

first, but it iss and the bow is like My wife said this to me a while ago. She said, of all the things you do, she's like archery seems to be the only one where even if you don't have a good day, you're still happy. Like if I If I If I'm on the racetrack and I'm driving a race car or if I'm, you know, swim in or whatever and I just have a bad day like I don't I'm just not firing on all cylinders. Like it, you know, just kind of pisses me off, right? There's something about archery where even if I'm not having a good day, like maybe it's an extension of what you're talking about with the trigger finger. So for me, I got an artery because of Tim and the

story that the thing that he told me, which obviously for once is Yeah, the thing that

he told me that immediately made me be like I want to do this was just anything that requires that much. Perfection just seems great. And he was like, Yeah, you don't take a shot unless you can kill the animal like you know, So you might take one shot in two days like it's it's got to be a kill shot on the kill shots gotta look like X y and Z, and I was like, Oh, that's like you got to be dialed in. So it was this idea of back tension, you know, it was sort of like, Wow, if you're taking a perfect shot like it's all in the Rahm

Boyd's you know, it's all

back here and you've got to be able to do is you said you got to completely be able to eliminate any anticipation any of this business, and and so I think that I think of archery from is almost like a meditation give you like I'm talking in the way like Sam Harris would talk about sort of consciousness and the way you are so hyper aware of what you're doing. That yes, you can daydream in your mind can wander. But if you actually start to imagine the sensations of every part of archery, in many ways it feels like meditating s. So I think that's why I'm just like, you know, I never really thought about it with shooting a rifle. I don't have much experience with guns, but I'm guessing it's it's very similar. But as you said, like the difference between the good and the great and that is less obvious, you know, at a distance,

Yeah, I think offhand shooting a rifle and shooting a bow, I bet. I bet I'm just as accurate at 60 yards as the average person is not sniper but the average person with a rifle. You could be pretty fucking accurate unit. You can't off a bench, so there's There's some similarities. There's like there's a similarity to having the You have to have perfect technique. You have to have the right stance. You have to make sure that you know everything's locked in and you're your structure is correct. But I agree with you that I think it's some sort of a meditation. I also think there's something to hitting a target that is in our d. N A. That's connected to hunting that's connected to survival that's connected to in the thousands of years that people through arrows and fuckin What's that? What is that thing called? What's that thing called that day? Yeah,

that I say it. Add a little right. Yeah, that You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, that's, like, advanced spear throwing thing, and then archery. And just I think when a person would hit a deer, they knew their tribe was going to eat. Right? So there's this, like, charge and you get a small amount of that juice when you hit a target.

You know, remember, Sure, there's if there's gotta be dopamine that secreted whenever you do that, it's the greatest feeling in the world,

does it? It shouldn't make sense. Like when you looking at someone doing it? You like, What do you give a fuck if that arrow goes in there? It doesn't make sense. Like, Why does it make somebody? There's a fucking sat like Jamie laughs at me because I'll hit the bull's eye from 45 yards and I'm like, Yes, it's like, Get this little Wu, get a little little burst, man.

I just like the whole experience, even the sound. So sometimes, like when my veins get holes in them like sometimes you put a broadhead through are you put like a field trip through another one. And now, obviously, sometimes if you trash the vein, the era doesn't work. But, like usually just a single hole in a vein will produce a sound that is the greatest sound you've ever heard. When that taro leaves

the whistle, yeah, oh, you love it. So it's a problem with certain broad heads, certain vented broad heads. They whistle. There was so much to give you

the heads up. Yeah, So that whole experience of, like, the perfect release, You know, even when you surprise yourself like I've been I switched over to this Carter Evolution.

Released? Sure about back tension. Release? Yes. It's the most pure back.

Tension is better than the honey because the honey, you could still cheat a little bit. You know, if you were

getting lazy, you could switch with stand. Exactly. The evolution. There is no cheating, right? You can't. So you can surprise yourself with a shot. Yeah. So there's no anticipation. Yeah. You can't explain this to people who don't do it. And you notice that. No, you can't. They're like, What are you rambling about?

Boring the shit out of me? I have tried to explain this to people. You don't know what I'm talking about. I was trying to explain it to Alexander Gustafsson, who was in here the other day. And he's a hunter, too, And but he only hunts and sweet. And you can't bow hunt. It's not legal. And ah ah, He wanted to learn how to shoot a bow and So I was explaining that I put my finger on this trigger. My finger sits on the trigger. I used a Carter, too. I used first choice is the name of the reason I go my finger.

My thumb is on the trigger, but I never squeeze it. Yep. The squeezing is all done with my back as I pull. Then it got just goes off and look, you can see his head was like, Why? Why would money? But you just do that. You just do that, you know? It's

so counter intuitive. But once I got into it, Tim actually sent me this book on back tension, and then I just devoured it. I mean, it was sort of like the reading the Penny Dean book,

you know, Is Tim doing this a lot now? Not as much as he should be, but trying to hunt with it. Yeah. Tim,

Tim. Oh, Hunt and, um,

actually got it. So far, I know he's tease Hollier only with rifles.

No, he's hunt. He goes, he's He's been on bow hunting trips. That's in fact, what got me into it about two years ago, he was getting ready to go to a trip to a five day trip in Colorado, and he called me and said, Hey, I want to talk with you about, like, some training and some nutrition to get ready for. This is gonna be kind of an extreme whole deal. You know, your altitude. You're running around like crazy. You've got to be able to like,

like, sprint and then be totally relaxed. And so he's like, you know, can you help me think about how to train and what the nutrition would be? And I said, Okay, tell me more about what the demands are, and the more he told me, the more I was like, Why am I not doing

this freaking awesome? So that's, uh and he's got an

awesome video of this. He took mean probably he only took one shot, and like the whole five day trip, it was a perfect kill. Why did he kill? There's a huge bird and I can't remember what a word. Yeah, Yeah, I was like a bird on the ground like some huge ass bird, but it wasn't a turkey. It was like I remember what it was. But the shot he was like you know, it was one of those things where it was like because it you know, all my practices on stationary targets, right? It's a totally new dimension when it's like the things doing this

also is flying. It

was it was, like, kind of like either running on the ground or about to fly or something. Anybody hit it in motion. It was a great shot. That's crazy. Yeah.

What the fuck? That would be what it was on that big bird in North America. Did you shoot a fucking eagle? Palate? Definitely wasn't. How's he doing? Yeah, I was reading something about the goose problem about how the goose population has exploded because, ah, farmlands and that Ah, they literally don't. They don't know what to do with the certain population of different kinds of geese that are flying into this country from Canada.

It's funny you say that I was in Toronto three weeks ago, which is where I'm from. And though I don't go off and we were, I was with my brother and we were up taking the kids to someplace and sure enough, like we're walking from one area to the other and these geese come up and they kind of start posturing. And I'm thinking, What the fuck? And my brother's like moving. Clearly one of us is near one of their eggs. Sounds like what he's like. Oh, yeah, he goes these air, the most aggressive creatures and their big Yeah, they're pretty big. Sounds like fair enough. Let's just keep walking. Don't make

eye contact. They're big, but you can cook them, so fuck them. Get out of here. Goddamn keys. Yeah, there's a There's a There's a certain type of G's that they call rib eye in the sky because they have a delicious red meat to them. What is that called? Which fucking god damn it. But they're very plentiful in Texas. Yeah, they hunt him in Texas and they litter. What's the meat like? Is it my old? It looks like a rib eye. It's crazy.

Sandhill. Thank you. Sandhill Crane. That's what it is. There anything you don't know? He's a fucking wizard with the cool. Seriously, with Google, everyone as a wizard, but Jamie is an extra wizard. He's really he's a ninja. Yeah, but that is what they call them. So it's, um, it's actually common phrase because it I've had friends that say it might be the most delicious meat in the world.

I mean, it tastes like a like a like a wog. Ooh, rib eye And it's flying around and you could shoot like fucking 10 a day. It's crazy, like I have friends that hunt these things and, you know, they're fun. They're mostly in Texas. I don't know where they are, but my friends have hunted them, hunted them in Texas. I mean, I'm sure they fly all across the country, but yeah, it's a crane.

It's on a goose. Yeah, I've never been I've only been bird hunting twice. I went once, Ah, with Anthony Bourdain for his TV show. We hunted pheasants and he shot one. Then we cooked it and ate it. That was fun. I shot at one and missed, and I shot a turkey ones, which is pretty interesting. Wild turkeys. Very good, very delicious. But,

um, you know, it's, um when I I like mammals. I like eating mammals. I prefer a prefer red meat. Things better for you. I think it's more nutritious. It's more exhilarating. There's something about the meat itself, just tastes better.

No, I haven't met too many foods.

I don't like really You and eat it. Well, with the kind of exercise that you d'oh, I'm sure you're You must have a voracious appetite.

I mean, I do, but nothing like what I used to be. And I I fast, pretty much every day

doing 16 hours. What you doing?

Um, depends. So when I'm in, I split my time between New York and California. When I'm in New York, it's absolutely one meal a day, no ifs, ands or buts because it's just the schedule is such that you know, I'm seeing patients in the morning and afternoon and I don't want to do Don't waste time

to eat. What do you, Doctor?

Uh, that's a good question. I mean, I trained as a surgeon and did cancer surgery, but I My practice is based on longevity, so it's sort of how do you apply nutrition, exercise, sleep, stress management, endocrinology, lip ideology, supplements, hormones, All that stuff like, How do you engineer how to make somebody live longer? Is who is my clinical interest? Um,

so yes. So in New York, I eat one meal a day So it's basically like a 22 hour fasting window, and then I'm feeding within a two hour window. Wow, when I'm here, um, it's

about this. Well, I mean, yesterday

and today it's the same. Like, you know, today has just been kind of Ah, busy day. You know, I won't eat till dinner tonight, but my short fast would be 16 hours where

I would eat kind of short for that would be a short, fat long one for me. Really? You got to get in touch with your evolutionary. So I had

this discussion with a friend this morning because he was saying to me, he can't do 16 hours.

Well, he's a pussy. When I was on my side, you just told him No, but I said,

you gotta understand. If our ancestors couldn't function when they were hungry, we wouldn't be here. So it's It's not just that starvation. Ah, a short term adaptation to starvation is is necessary. Probably beneficial. In other words, you know, during these short periods of deprivation of food, you know, we get just a little bit Maur, epinephrine and norepinephrine. We just get a little bit sharper a little bit better. Um,

I I can't even I

can't even remember it. It's like the three meals a day It's been so long. Really?

Yeah. I'll let you be doing this. I mean, I've been

doing crazy shit for 10 years. Nutritional wise, like I spent three years in ketosis where it was, You know, one day I was in ketosis for three years. Um, lots of fasting, but I think intermittent fasting or time restricted feeding, probably at least five years.

And what for people listening, What are the benefits of that? Well,

I mean, if you're going to get really technical, we have to be clear that I think a lot of the benefits are overstated and a lot of the benefits or things that we've only studied in animals. So there's a guy named Satun Panda at the Salk Institute in San Diego. I think one of the world's experts on time restricted feeding, but you know, for example, a 16 hour fast in a mouse produce is unbelievable results. If you take a group of you know, certain types of mice or strains of rats or other rodents and you in a 24 hour period, period. Deprive them of any nutrient for 16 hours, but then, for eight hours, let them eat whatever the hell they want. They can't gain weight. So,

um, and and the And the reason we think is that it? Once you give a long enough period of time when the animal can ramp up, it's like the enzymes in the liver that are responsible for fat oxidation. E mean they just basically become fat burn. I hate that term fat burning machine. It's so overused. But that's baby basically just become unbelievably efficient, metabolizing fat. So, um, we have to be careful that when we extrapolate that because you and I have a very different metabolism and a mouse like a 16 hour fast to amounts is much longer than it is to us. So I don't know if those benefits would extend. Also, it's not entirely clear the time restricted feeding will produce the longevity benefit that we see in other sort of fasting or fasting mimicking types of diets. Um,

so for me, what it comes down to is, I mean, honestly, it's just an easier way. It gives me a much more liberty with what I eat during my feeding window. I don't have to be nearly as restrictive when I'm feeding. If I have that period off it just just in terms of like my physiologic response. Secondly, there's a convenience thing like I kind of hate being tethered to eat. I like knowing that if I get into a pinch like I don't have to eat right now from sitting on the airplane and they're serving dog shit, I don't have to eat. I can wait another five hours until I eat. Um, I also just feel much more steady in my energy levels. I kind of vaguely remember,

like, 10 years ago when I was kind of like eating a normal diet. How I always had this low in energy after lunch, like there is the post lunch pre dinner. I just don't feel good, like, not that I feel bad. But like I'm not sharp. I'm not in my A game, and I don't even know what that feels like anymore. Which is not to say I feel great all the time, but I definitely don't have that vast relating energy

level. Yeah, I've said that the people, when I eliminated most carbs from my diet, you know? And I have a friend of mine who talked his trainer about that. His trainers like you're crazy. Eat bread, Eat pasta. Don't listen them like No, don't listen to him like just just google it. That stuff's fucking terrible for you. If you want to eat carbohydrates, get it from fruits. You get it from some natural sources. But just if you have a trainer, this tone,

you eat bread, get a new fucking trainer because it's just it's not. What you need is nothing wrong with eating if you want to occasionally and in small doses. But when I eliminated most that stuff from my diet, I felt the exact same thing. I felt that midday nap desire go away and they're just the fogginess about like you at the end of the day. Like Oh, God, I'm fucking tired. And then I'd have to drink a cup of coffee to get ramp back up again. And this just like never ending cycle of having this insulin spike and then this crash and that is that's from carbohydrates. It's from refined carbohydrates and you know, having too much fucking sugar in your body and everybody does it. It's like, All right, so

this will be funny for your so Google my name and just put like, Peter Attea fat. And you're gonna see a picture of me when I was a swimmer Because all this time we were talking about me swimming You're assuming like I'm a fit, dude, I was fit, but fat dude fit but fat fit but totally fat. And

this is you eating?

Oh, nonstop carbs. But there, there I am. See on the left.

There. Well, I wouldn't say you were fat. I would say you got You got a little paunch

on you. I don't know. Wait, wait. There's another picture after I swim across Lake Tahoe, go to that. That one right there. Yeah.

God will got there, fella. Yeah, I don't like it. Boozing it up. Yeah, but it's also the way you're sitting down. Stood up it, suck it in for a picture on instagram. Might look Okay. I was

definitely, you know, probably what, maybe £30 heavier. Wow, But but bought, you know, body fat was much greater. And what were you eating? Oh, I mean, I probably went 33 or four bottles of power A today? Yeah, training all day. And, you know, every post workout was a car bree feed. And so you're in sort of this vicious, glycogen dependent

state. Yeah, people that it's It's crazy that there's so many folks out there that are living their life that don't even understand that this is a process they're going through. They just think this is eating and exercise. This is what happens. But it's not your body lift. If you shot, cut that off, push it away, enter into a completely different food source. Just change the way you you eat, your body will change. And that that just that concept people, that sounds like horseshit. It sounds like What are you saying? You you're Would you offering some miracle cure Europe? No,

I'm saying you will change the dimension of life that you operate in. It would change because you won't be the same person you want. Like who you are is dependent upon a lot of things. But one of them is how much energy you have, how you feel where you're crashing. If you change the way you eat, you change the energy you have changed. The way you feel. It'll change. Your behavior will change your choices. They'll change your ambitions. It'll change your potential. I mean, there's so many things that will change. But there's an interesting

question, which I've I spend some time thinking about, and I've sort of accepted the fact that we might not know the answer, which is when I was growing up, I was exercising like crazy, not as much as I was when I was swimming, but I mean, sorry more than I was when I was swimming.

But I ate

like I had the world's worst diet growing up so I would eat. Breakfast was a bowl of, um, like a box of cereal, so I take like one of these Tupperware bowls. It was this big and fill it with a full box of each day. I would have just a box of cocoa puffs or whatever. I would start the day, and then lunch was a full loaf of bread, which would seven sandwiches plus a plate of fries, plus a big tub of like like a two litre jug of orange juice. But I was training six hours a day, right? So I would run 10 miles in the morning in the gym, you know, boxing like it was, you know?

You know what that shit's like. I mean, it's ridiculously energy expending, but the point is, I had a hard time holding my weight, and I was a middleweight. 1 60 walked around at 1 58 who walks around below their fight. Wait, So, you know, my waist was 28 inches. I was 4.5% body fat, and I was eating anything and everything you could put in front of me. And then something happened in medical school where that shit just stopped and I wasn't Even eating is badly at the time, but all of a sudden the metabolic adaptation just vanished. And,

you know, I mean, I wish someone could study this, meaning you would have to take a group of individuals and do muscle and fat biopsies over their course of their life. Or at least during this window, when we think this is happening. And I think for many of my patients or just even friends like it seems that this happens kind of in your thirties. If you're a guy for women it's It's harder for me to tell because I think pregnancy can interfere with this. Um so sometimes we get a bit of a skewed answer. But if I had to hypothesize, I think that we go from having a lot of lipoprotein light pace on muscle cells and not much on fat cells to the reverse. So when I was 16 and invincible, my muscles had a lot of this enzyme LPL on it that could just absolutely take whatever I was throwing at them and turn it into energy for the muscle. Whereas when that LPL exist on a fat cell, you're basically just gonna store more fat. And now why that would happen over time.

I mean, we could guess reasons, but I'd love to know if that's the case, because I still can't really figure out, like,

Why is

it today? I am so carbohydrates, sensitive when there was a day when I could eat, you know, it's probably eating seven or 8000 calories a day, of which 80% were probably carbohydrates when I was growing up and was lean

and mean. Did you experience a crash? It all in the post afternoon crash post lunch crash. Good question back then. I don't think

I did that much back in the day, which would also speak to the idea of better fuel partitioning. Feel partitioning. Meaning this sort of technical term for where your body knows to goto excess energy. You know? Are you going to glycogen or you go into the fat? Um and then where you storing energy? So So I suspect I was just better at fuel partitioning as a kid, which I'm sure most of us were. Um, anyone. It's kind of, of course, the real question. The reason we care about this is like, what could you do about it, right?

Like what? You know, for example, like, that's probably one of the reasons why testosterone a CZ testosterone goes down, you're gonna get fatter all things equal. And part of the reason is testosterone up regulates LPL and hormone sensitive like pace and all of these other enzymes in the direction of making you leaner versus fatter. So, um, but that I I just don't think that that's enough of it. You know? I think there's something else that's going on that's triggering that decline.

So for you with this 22 hour window of not eating. What do you think the benefits are other than your energy and slight spikes in norepinephrine and some other hormones? Well,

I don't think there's sufficient evidence at this point in time that time restricted feeding is going to impact my longevity. So I think that's the big claim,

and it's the big claim it is. Then what is the clinic?

What are they saying? Oh, I mean, I think the claim would be that fasting mimic re which could be, you know, like what? Say vaulter? Long go talks about where you do a five day Hypo caloric diet of 752 1000 calories a day for five days, followed by 25 days of ad lib bottom feeding. Meaning it, whatever the hell you want. Um, in terms of total caloric content, um, you know, the claim is, well,

that's going to enhance longevity and or, you know, doing a 16 8 or 18 6 is going to enhance lifespan. So just to take a step back, um, I I am only aware of, uh, three things that have universally extended life span across all model organisms. So if you think of like all you carry, it's right. If you go from yeast toe Worm's toe flies to mammals, the only things that uniformly extend life or almost uniformly, is caloric restriction and or dietary restriction. So total reduction in calories during the lifetime end or reduction of certain subsets of those calories. So there's a super famous experiment that was done. Actually,

if anyone's interested, I wrote about it. It's on my blog's somewhere, but it's basically this. The best experiment ever done in Clark restriction was between monkeys, and there's a group at the N. I. H and a group at the University of Wisconsin. And it was like a 19 year experiment or something like that. So you could really study the impact of caloric restriction over these things. And that experiment showed us that caloric restriction extended lifespan if you had a really shitty diet and it did not extend lifespan if you had a really good diet. Counterintuitive. But it also spoke to the idea that dietary restriction probably mattered. So in other words, if you're eating a regular diet of McDonald's every day and then we put your counterpart eating 70% a McDonald's every day that's going to move the needle. But in the Wisconsin and in the N i H experiment,

when you took the monkeys that were eating kind of, it wasn't their natural food, but it was less horrible food. The caloric restriction did not extend life span, so that threw a wrench and everyone's understanding of caloric restriction. And there are certain strains of mice that also don't seem to be enhanced in terms of life span, meaning just time on on earth. Um, but for the most part, nutrient deprivation pretty ubiquitously extends life. The second thing that uniformly extends life across This is a drug called Rapid myson, which is kind of like my favorite drug in the whole world. I mean, meaning it's like, I think, the most important drug in terms of this space,

not necessarily because it's a drug that will all be taking, though I do believe that is the case, but more importantly, because of what it's taught us about the nutrient sensing pathway and its target, which is this protein called Tour. The target of Rapid Myson, or M, tour, as you probably heard of it, is mechanistic target of rapid myson and rapid myson inhibits that now It's a bit complicated because there's two variants of it. There's something called M tour Complex one and M Tour complex, too. And if you take rapid myson day in and day out every day, which, for example, transplant patients do, It's an immune suppressant that doesn't seem to really extend lifespan. But if you take it in a pulse a tile way, you selectively get this M torque one inhibition without the M torque to inhibition that seems to produce longevity big time.

And how does that work? How would you take it selectively? Well,

um, this is sort of one of my main clinical interests, because I, uh obviously I'm waiting for the day when I can start taking it. And ultimately, you know, feel that it's safe enough that I could give it to patients if I'm extrapolating from all of the best data out there. So that's looking at the work that's come out of a guy named David Sabbatini's lab. David's ah guy at M I t. He's a professor. He's actually the guy that when he was a medical student doing his PhD in 1994 actually discovered how rapid Myson works in mammals. He's actually guy that coined mechanistic target of rapid mice and M torque as a name. And so now, whatever we are almost 25 years later, um, you know he's still running the powerhouse lab that understands it. So if you look at all of the literature that's coming out of their lab,

coupled with a guy named Matt K. Berlin at the University of Washington, who's doing rapid mice and studies and dogs, along with the work done by someone named Joan Manic, who was at the time at Novartis, is now at a company called Restore Bio and a few other people, my intuition is that somewhere between 2 to 6 milligrams every 5 to 7 days is probably the sweet spot. Um, but, you know, am I confident enough in that to say that we should all be taking it? Not yet. There's a couple things that like I want to be able to measure before we do that. But, um, you know,

in the animal data, the steps remarkable. If you look at Matt K. Berlin's dog data, it's remarkable.

Like what are they doing

with it? Well, so for so you own a dog, you know this, right? I mean, if you if you look at outside of euthanasia or accidents, how to dogs die, actually die of cancer and heart, and they get dilated cardiomyopathy. So it's a different type of heart disease in humans. Get they don't get after a sclerotic disease, they get heart failure. The heart's just get too, too, too big. And the rejection fraction,

which is the amount of blood, the percentage of blood that leaves the ventricular chamber with every contraction that that number goes down, bad things happen. Put that in perspective. You and I sitting here a couple of normal fit dudes. We probably have a resting ejection fraction of 60%. And if, like we went out there and, like, killed it and work out as hard as we could at peak, we might get that up to 80. 85% ejection fraction. So once the ejection fraction gets below 30% you know a person starts to become very symptomatic. Well, Matt took these dogs that had low ejection fractions to begin with, and I forget with an exact number was,

but it might have been like below 40% of below 30%. Put them on a rapid myson for 12 weeks and in just 12 weeks saw an absolute 10% improvements or not. Didn't that means knots not going from 32. 33. That's going from 30 to 40% e f improvement. Um, you know, this is hard to measure in effect in 12 weeks of a drug. Um, and certainly you're not gonna be able to measure a longevity impact over that. So much of the study that's being done with this is looking at surrogate markers that we assume would portend longevity. So mats work, focusing on the ejection fraction Mannix work was focused on immune response, which again was so this was the turning point. For me, this was like December of 2014 was like when everything in my professional world shifted in terms of my interest towards like,

rapid myson is the thing I want to know everything about. Because when I was a surgical resident, you know, we used to give rapid mice and out like it was cotton candy to all the transplant patients. It was an amazing drug that revolutionized transplant physiology because it had far fewer side effects than massive doses of prednisone and things that we used to have to give patients. Now you could give them much less prednisone, and you could give them rapid myson or cousins of rapid myson like F K 506

And what you're doing with that stuff is you're suppressing the immune system so the body doesn't reject the organ. Exactly. Now when you do that, does that leave them susceptible to illness or disease? Does? Would that be the case with rapid mice in in person, taking it for long? Kevin,

that's the $1,000,000 question. And so I think in two. In a moment I want I'll tell you the story of how rapid Myson came to be because I think it's the most interesting story in biology, certainly in the last 25 30 years. But when it was approved in 1999 by the FDA, it was for this indication it was an immune suppressant. It was 10 years before anybody figured out that Oh, wait, this could also extend life and there and you had this paradox which was waiting How could an immune suppressant extend life? I mean, everybody acknowledges that immunity is a court, you know, element of health. And so in December of 2014 I feel like it was like almost Christmas day. I remember thinking this is like the best present I ever got. Mannix Group published this paper, which they did in a group of about 320 65 year olds ish.

So they put them in tow. Four groups. There's a placebo group. There was a group that got and it wasn't actually wrapping my son. It was evram ever alignments, which is an analog of rap, my specially, the same drug. So there's a group that got one milligram every single day, five milligrams once a week, 20 milligrams once a week. They did this for something like 8 to 12 weeks, and then they washed out, meaning they got nothing for 8 to 12 weeks. And then they were hit with a flu vaccine. And then the scientists measured the immune response,

doing these really complicated essays where you look a T cell function so relative to the placebo act. Paradoxically, all groups and I said paradoxically, because even the group that got one milligram once a day all saw an increase in immunity, which is a good thing. But the five and 20 group saw an even bigger response. The people who just got five once a week or 20 once a week, so on even bigger response. But the group that took 20 once a week had more side effects and the biggest side effect of rapid mice and acutely, is these awful awful mouth sores called hapless ulcers. They're nasty. They're brutal. I used to get them all the time, just from, I think, sleep deprivation. Or, you know, something that is weakening my immune system. So,

um, it's an internal sword, Not not like a cold

sore. No, no, no, you canker. So it's It's a really nasty type of canker. Sore. Yeah. So, um, once I had one so bad that I was like, isn't it? I was in residency and I was like, it was just driving me nuts. So I went to the O. R. And I got a bunch of light a cane,

which is a local anesthetic, and I went into the call room and I just grabbed my tongue and just injected like light a cane in it. When I did that, somebody walked in and I've got, like, blood dripping down from my mouth. And I've got a needle in my mouth and they're like

and I'm like, No, no, no, it's not what you think. It's not what you think. I swear. It's

like a cane. They're like, Dude way. I tried to help support groups for people like you

have lighted Kane's disgusting. I had my deviated septum fixed and they shoved the lighter king up there. You know, it's it's it's harsh stuff. And the rest of the day I just felt like shaky and just weird. And then I realized, Oh, this is like a almost like a cocaine type thing. Like it's you know, You know why we have light a cane because of cocaine. Yeah,

that's a guy named William Stuart Hall Stead, who was s so near and dear to my heart because he was the original. He was the founding surgeon at Johns Hopkins and one of the original four horsemen. So therefore, main physicians that basically have shaped medicine in this country all started out at Hopkins. Uh oh. Slur in medicine. Hopkins in surgery and two other guys Walsh and I'm blanking on Kelly was the 3rd 1 Um, and he basically

figured out because you got to remember, like

there was a day when surgery was staggeringly barbaric, like prior to ether surgery was like, All right, Can you hold him down like, gag? Um, get a drunk gag. Um, and like, we're gonna do

our thing. All right? It's just for crazy. So

God, I used to know all of this shit. I don't remember any of the exact dates anymore, but it was, like, kind of like mid 18 hundreds toe late 18 hundreds. When up, um, Massachusetts General Hospital. I forget the name of who it was, but someone basically came up with ether, so ether became the first form of anesthetic. But, you know, you were sort of knocking people out. Well, it was,

you know, fast forward. Probably 2030 years when Hall stead figured out that this thing called cocaine could provide local anesthetic. So he began experimenting with, like, crazy and, of course, in the process became like Peyton Lee addicted to it. So you have this entire generation of surgeons at Hopkins from that early era that were completely Coke addicted. So Hall stayed in all of his first generation of residents. And then, of course, from that we got light a cane, be piva cane, all of these things that don't have the same properties. But to this day,

cocaine is still used, and most people don't realize it. But cocaine is a schedule two drug, meaning it actually has a medical application. Unlike heroin, which is scheduled one in the D A and marijuana. That's right. But but cocaine is scheduled to, and it is still used in Samy NT surgery because it has some favorable properties over even like Cain and beautification for nasal surgery.

Did you know that they still use coca leaves for Flavor and Coca Cola? They actually extract the cocaine from it, used the coca leaves and the cocaine goes to medical For what I did, I had cocoa tea

for my first time this summer like really coco the lot, but like

brought up for on the Montana Montana Coco, that's what it is.

Yeah, it's great. I could

not get enough of that stuff. You can't shut the fuck up on it, though that's it's a weird sort of high. It's a very strange thing. It's very talkative,

sort of high. I thought it was just everything about It was like

Just retreat the leaves. You ever done that? Like in Peru or No, no, I've never done either. But apparently it's really interesting, Like it's like a coffee sort of a thing. And it's got flavonoids. It's actually it's actually probably healthy for you. I just love plants in general, but, well, it's we think of the coca leaves as producing cocaine. Cocaine, we think of is inherently negative. But the leaf itself, like if you just don't extract it, it's actually really good for

Well, that's the thing, I mean and, you know, even like thinking about the difference between eating fruit versus eating Oreo sugar. Yeah, like nature's pretty good at regulating how fast this stuff. So in the case of fruit like, how quickly does fructose hit your liver? There's a sort of governor built into it. If you're going raspberries like, could you get nonalcoholic fatty liver disease from eating enough raspberries?

Yeah, probably. But it's like go crazy. You got it you do? Even Didn't you become a full time job? Or you could just drink a giant gallon of orange juice every day. If that would do it, I would do it that way. Most people think of fresh squeezed orange juice is being Oh, you're eating healthy. Yeah, Look at you over there with your fresh squeezed are you're juicing as totally healthy, super healthy. Meanwhile, you're just drinking a big old glass of sugar. You literally your body doesn't know the difference being that cocoa.

Very little difference between the

two of Coca Cola has got some other stuff in there. Caffeine. But other than that,

just the sugar itself. Yeah, your liver would have a hard time telling the difference

so crazy. Most people would think a glass of orange juice that breakfast is a healthy choice. Glasses shatter. Mountain Dew. Yeah, it might be better if I get more shit done. So this is the dosage of 15 and then 20. So? So

that that study remembering that and thinking Okay, if it's if you looked at that study, you realized if you're gonna be in the placebo, the one a day that five once a week or the 20 one's weak. The five once a week was the way to go because you got a sweet spot. That's what you got. All the benefit of 20 more benefit than one and the fewest side effects.

And how long is this study? That was an eight week

intervention with an eight week washout was enough to see the enhanced immunity.

Do you think that a longer term study is necessary to see, Like, what? I'm not The body adapts.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, all the stuff is in its infancy. Now, my my stick is, um so So right now, wrapping my sins off patent. Right? So the drug was approved in 99 by the FDA. But this is after an unbelievable, amazing story of like how you know, this drug almost got lost forever, like S S O. There is no economic incentive for a company to, you know, figure out how to do this thing with rapid myson,

um, and even ever alignments. I think ultimately Novartis. And I'm saying this would know actual knowledge other than just my own speculation. But I suspected of artist was like, Well, you know, we're not gonna play this game just with ever alignments. And that's I think, why it probably spun into this other company restore bio to sort of combine it with other agents. Um, but at an end of one level, what I'm kind of interested in doing is, um, you know, using myself as a guinea pig to start to measure the benefits of it.

Because my hypothesis is three things have to be true. If Rapid Myson is working, I could be wrong, But But this is my hypothesis. And this is what I test with other scientists is if you were taking rapid myson at the right dose, so assume you're not getting all the nasty side effects. You're not getting the mouth sores and stuff like that. Three things have to get better. One. Your glucose metabolism should at least get no worse, but potentially better. I suspect it's a function of where you start. So there is one doctor in New York who has, like, a rapid mice and practice. I think he's in.

They're using the Bronx, actually, and I've talked to him a bunch. And when he when he started it himself, he said, like the improvements were remarkable just in terms of glucose metabolism, but I think he was starting at a pretty bad spot. But if maybe you were, I took it. We might not notice much getting better, but we definitely should not get worse. So that's easy to measure. Clinically, you do. Is an aural glucose tolerance test would give you that answer. But two things should get significantly better.

The first is immune function should get better, not worse. There's no clinical way to measure that, but we do know how to measure it. I mean, when I was doing my post doc, it was in an immunology lab, like, I know how to do that as, say, I just don't have, like, a $1,000,000 worth of equipment

to measure it. What is the difference in the dosage, even in the high end? At 20 versus, which would give someone if they got a kidney transplant?

Yeah, yeah, Typical transplant toast would have been, like 23 milligrams every day. Okay, so it's quite a bit different. It is, and it's different on two levels because you know when you're giving it every day at a lower dose, you stood still end up producing tissue levels that might even be comparable to where that person was getting with the spike of 20. And in general, this isn't always true, but in general and pharmacology, side effects or the result of certain side effects of the result of the nature dose and certain side effects of the result of the peak does so with every drug, you kind of have to understand this a little bit. But going back to this wrapping my something of the third thing that has to be true in my opinion could be full of shit. But I think the third thing that has to be true if you're taking the right dose is you need to see an uptick in a ta fa jee. And so,

just as if you what does that mean? A top DJ

is this process where the body cells start eating themselves, So it's kind of like a programmed cell death, although technically we reserve that term for something called apoptosis. But when you're fasting, what's why would fasting produce a benefit? And I think the most logical explanation is enhanced. The top Hadji, So the body basically has to prioritize. In the absence of nutrients, the underperforming cells are basically told each yourself. And you know, we can recycle some of your components. Maybe this mighty Khan DRI is worth saving. This Golgi apparatus is worth saving, and then we selectively when we re feed, re populate the better cells. And in many ways,

I think Rapid myson can do that in a pill. So the problem is we don't have a blood test to measure a ta fa jee. So in in the in the lab, when you measure a ta fa jee, you need muscle biopsies or they typically even just sacrificed the animals. This has become a very hot areas of the Nobel Prize in medicine and physiology was awarded for the genetic basically the elucidation of the genetic regulation of a ta fa jee in actually 2016. So it's very recent. A year and 1/2 ago, this is what the Nobel Prize was awarded for. But what I'm hoping is that we can develop a signature for a top DJ with a blood test. So I believe that you should be able to look at someone's blood and look at all of the, you know, metabolism mix, all of the small molecules, all of the proteome. And there should be a signature.

It should look different from the way we look when we're, you know, fast it. Urban sorry. Fully

fed. Otherwise would you just take a sample of the muscle tissue like punch something out? Yeah,

and I'm I mean, I'm willing to do it all, and I probably will. We're just trying to get what's called an I R b An institutional review board. So to do these kinds of studies in humans, even if I'm the only subject and it's just like I don't care what you do to meet anything, we still have to get an i r. B. So we're working on getting an end of one i r. B so that we can take muscle biopsies, fat biopsies for me blood tests and then start to actually look for that

signature. What it vary in where you got it from, like why would you want more? Yeah,

more than one muscle group. It's a very good question. I don't know the answer. Um, I probably have to talk to people who have a lot of experience doing this with animals, but it it actually wouldn't surprise me like if I were going to do it. I would just start in the legs because the muscles in the legs tend to be the harbinger of what's going on in the body. So, for example, one of the first signs of diabetes, like a decade before you get diabetes. One thing that if you're actually doing this kind of testing in people, you'll notice glucose like insulin resistance in the muscles of the legs. So once the legs start to get insulin resistant, you're on a glide path to bad things happening.

I'm fascinated by legs for his evolve from years of martial arts, but also because over the last year or so, I've been doing a lot of running, and it's one of the only muscle groups that I could work out every day I can. I can run hills every day, and I'm not sore like that. That's not even possible for any other group. I mean, I can kind of do that with boxing, you can hit the bag, but as far as like, running hills is essentially like plyometrics, like you're pushing your entire weight up and then you're catching with the other leg and pushing it up. You can't do that with you. Can't bench press every day. You're fucking arms of fall off. I mean, there's probably someone out there doing it that's proven me wrong, but there's nothing like the amount of endurance that you haven't let. It

could just be an adaptation that you've had a CZ. Well, I mean, when I was a competitive cyclist, I mean, there were definitely days when I would, especially when we did like multi day events like there were days when it's just

like you're beaten down. You're

gonna learn in the 1st 10 minutes like everybody else is riding together. You're riding alone.

The fatigue level, though, is significantly different than it different than it would be if you were doing something with your arms every day. Ability. Oh, definitely recruit more. That's probably part of it. It's more tissue. I

think you have more options like you can you know, especially if you really have good pro PRI exception. But for example, if you're dead lifting, you know, I actually think if you so you know how you have like the positive and negative motion Concentric E center in motion of a wait. If you're willing to do away with the negative, you can lift heavy every single day. So there's this guy named Riley.

Oh, unfree kin believable. So, dude, I've seen people doing that, you know? I saw that Andre Galvao on his instagram the other day. It was doing dead lifts and just dropping the weight. And I was like, That seems weird

to me. So when I was a cyclist, this was my training on. It was all put together by this guy named Ryan Flaherty who actually introduced. There was another one of my sight unseen introductions to Tim for a podcast. It's a great podcast with Ryan Flaherty on, and he's a calm, the guru of speed. He This is a guy who likes single handedly. I shouldn't say single handedly. I mean, he's on the shoulders of many other people who have done great work, but but has really done an amazing job of figuring out how to make people run fast. And, um, it's a very long story, and I mean,

he does such a great job on the podcast. I won't go into it. But but for the purpose of this discussion, one of our interest was, Hey, could we translate everything you've learned about sprinting into cycling? And his biggest observation was the following. If he took 100 runners and lined them up and new like before they ran new house how hard they could hit a force plate treadmill, he could predict the order in which they'd finish the race. So force plate treadmill, as its name, suggests a treadmill. But it's a special treadmill where it measures the force that you hit and that the higher that number divided by your body weight. That became what he described his mass specific force. That number If you rank order. It is the order in which people would finish the run.

Oh, so it kind of makes sense. If you think about it right, the harder you can hit the ground relative to your own weight. The higher you go and the higher you go, the longer you travel with each stride. So you saying Bolt has the highest ever force plate measurement? Um, calculation, and it's I forget what his ratio is. I want to say he's like 6.9 or seven times more force than his body weight every time he hits, if friggin staggering. So then Ryan's once he figured all this stuff out. His next question. This is when he was working at USA Track, His next question was,

Could you train this? In other words, like, Okay, Joe runs Ah, you know, 4.9 40 we want to get that down to a 45 Can that be done? And it turned out the answer was categorically, Yes, you have to do two things. You have to get stronger and you have to get lighter. So how do you do that? And that's when he came up with this idea of We do hex bar dead lifts. We lift really heavy, so you're only doing fives, fours,

threes or two's never more than five reps, and so you'll do five sets every single day and you'll pick it so some days it will be five sets of three. Some days it's five sets of five, whatever it is and you're and they're very well prescribed, like, you know, at what percentage of your one right? Max, you're doing these at in its up drop up, drop up drop. So you're never getting the act in my ascent filament to tear pass because that's what happening in the negative is the acting and the the acting is coming off the Maya sin, and that is creating a micro tear in the muscle. And that's what the muscle rebuild. That's why we get larger when we lift weights. But when you drop it, you unload the muscle when you're relaxing it,

so the muscles not going to get bigger. So you're getting all the benefits, all the strength, which is primarily around the type to be muscle fiber and without the without the size. So anyway when well, when I asked Ryan, Hey, could we do this in cycling? We did this experiment, which was he kind of came up with. This was for me and two other guys who were very good cyclist like I was like, I'm a popper, but these guys were like Cat one cat, two collegiate cyclers. But but cyclist? But they were like my training partners,

so we did this thing where we did the same routine that he had the sprinters doing, and it's a bit more complicated than I've described because you're also juxtaposing the positive only with something called post activation. Potentially a shin, which you may have already experienced this, but I don't know if you've ever tried to do plyometrics after dead lifting, but it seems counterintuitive that you'd be able to do more. But you can.

Really? Yeah. It has to be a heavy dead lift in terms of numbers

or more internal, more in terms of distance, like in terms of vertical. So your highest, like plyometric jump is going to come after you've done, like, three sets of three at 95%

of your one, right, Max and three sets of three dropping or using the center? No. Definitely knowing Central. Absolutely, huh?

Wow. And so we would super set the plyometrics with the dead lifts,

and you do it every

day. And so, Ryan, you know, he wrote he runs a training camp where he has, um, typically the top 10 college prospects every year, just before the NFL combine come down. And I mean the changes he makes in their time, like Johnny Menzel was one of them. So obviously Johnny Manziel is obviously, you know, not panned out in the pros, but most people kind of forget how good an athlete he was. And when he showed up to camp, I forget what his time was. But I want to say it was about,

you know, you could look that stuff for me. You know, it was 3/10 slower than what he ultimately ran at the combine. And he I think he had the fastest or second fastest quarterback time at the combine. After just 12 weeks of doing this. It was unbelievable how fast he could get these guys to run.

I saw something the other day that I'd never seen before. It's an E centric bike. It changes back and forth. Heard of this thing in the second person to tell me about this? I think. Assad. Yesterday, in fact, now that I think about it, it was e centric and con centric. But it alternates. Yeah, and it looked really weird. It forces movement and you're resisting the movement receiving and find that Jamie. It's like an e centric. I forget what it's called, but ah,

like someone sent me this like, Hey, this thing's amazing. I was like It's bike the fuck you talking about look different than that? The one I

saw was also different. Look, it was a risk, I think is like a recumbent.

Yeah. Yeah, that's what I saw, too. Yeah. E centric. Yeah. You're spelling it wrong. Just coming up. Oh, it says just centric. Okay. Huh? E centric exercise bike. Try that. But it's the thing. Is it?

It alternated between e centric and con centric. It wasn't just the one with the red and the top row. Looks like it. What is that? Pediatric air? Graham. Inner. No, it's on. It comes for little kids. Well, whatever. I wish I had saved it cause I was like, I'm never buying this, but, you know,

it just looked interesting. Just like there's always these new methods of stimulating the body and tricking it into doing things. And I guess that's essentially what a lot of people, the way a lot of people think of intermittent fasting. You're kind of stimulating the body you're hacking, tricking it, you know,

on I wonder, you know, one of the things that Ryan and I talked about was could we ever adopt his training system to swimming and in running and cycling. It's primarily gonna be quads, hams, glutes have to be the muscles

that do it. Which any row things we were talking

about, like you really got to be able to get the lats fired. But how do you get the lads to fire at such a weight and then without having to do the negative as well? So we just couldn't really kind of figure out how to do it. And they're So we adapted part of his technique to swimming, which was the actual training routine. Meaning So One of the big misconceptions, if you're trying to go fast, is that you need to still train slow. But the route of it is like, you know, if you're trying to run a marathon at, you know, call it a pace of to 15 you know, world class marathon runner. There's not a lot of benefit to be spending much time running at a pace slower than that. If anything,

you want to run so fast that you know who Mab is. The American marathoner who won the Boston Marathon three years ago. No so amazing. Marathoner, Um, he's the I think he's the only person to have won the New York Marathon, the Boston Marathon and to have won an Olympic medal in Marathon. He won a silver medal in the 2004 Athens Games, but when he won the Boston Marathon, he was like 38 years old, which in marathon parlance is like humans will be 100 and he had not really had a great race in the previous few years. So he had been effectively written off in the sport and Ryan actually helped train him, and all they did was apply this principle of sprinting into marathon running, which was all right. Maybe if you wanna win the Boston Marathon, you need to be able to travel like four inches further with every step you take,

taking the same number of steps that the same cadence that you currently run. And they, you know, Ryan did the math and said, that means your force number has to go from where it is now, which I think was 1.7, meaning he could only dead lift 1.7 times his body weight. You have to get that after, like 2.6 or something, and so when MEB train for the Boston Marathon. He was focusing heavily on these dead lifts and doing much shorter, faster runs. And you know, I mean, if you watch the video of his Boston Marathon, when it's incredible,

like, you know, he just takes off and like, leaves everybody behind them and they're like, Yeah, there's no way he'll be able to keep that up. We'll let him go and they couldn't rein

him in. Wow, Do you think that someone's gonna build a break, too? But that's the big we're talking about. The other day, some guy got really close. Would you say he had Jamie like to, 06 or something?

I think someone's gone closer to finding that guy in Germany last year

go even closer. I think it was 202 or something along those lines, and you think that this sort of method is what they're using?

So I don't know if I'm allowed to talk.

T Technically, uhm, don't worry. No one's listening.

Um, so short answer is yes. I think this can be done. Um, everything has to be perfect, right? Meaning you have to have the perfect athlete trained to peak at the right time. You need the right humidity like everything has to fire on all cylinders. But just as there was nothing physiologically special about a four minute mile when Roger Bannister broke it, it was more of a psychological barrier. Um, you know, I'm not suggesting for a moment that this will be easy, but, you know, we're going to get there. I mean, like, this can happen.

That is incredible. If you think about how fast you're running to run 26 miles in two hours,

two minutes, stagger. I don't think people understand. Like what? I mean, I was never a great runner. I was about a 2 50 marathon to marathon when I was a boxer but never trained as a runner like it was just I just ran so much and I was pretty fast. But like when I think about how hard I would have to run to bust out a 2 52 to 55 to think like was there any chance I could have ever got that down to a 2 30? It's Ah, that is such an enormous change in pace. Yeah, it's it's I don't know that I ever could have done that, regardless of all the training tricks

in the world. And what kind of died of those guys following? Well,

I know met personally, I can't speak to what the other guys do. But I think a lot of those guys air frankly in the state of where I was when they were younger, meaning like they can probably get away with a lot more. Um, if you look at the physics of most of these guys there, they're perfectly built, like I'm talking elite level I'm talking about like anyone who runs a marathon. But if you're talking about like, the people who are gonna win the marathons, they are basically all engine and then chassis in the right place. That's basically all they come down to write. I mean, they are enormous cardiovascular system, very strong quads, hams, glutes. And then everything else is very tiny.

When you say enormous, like is literally the size of their long

you actually looking well, I mean, it's all relative, but when you look at their frame, their thorax is gonna be

larger. And is it expanded because

of the training? I think

so. I mean, except you never

know. Cause and effect. Sometimes you could argue, Mike, Maybe these guys were Maybe the people who are drawn to those sports are the ones that are, you know, are drawn to be elite in those sports Already had a genetic predisposition. That sort of my feeling

is that with Lance Armstrong doesn't have ah, very large heart. I don't know. Um, I think what Lance

had that was pretty unique, even amongst the world's best, which is what he competed with. Of course, I think his lactate threshold was a lot higher than most people genetically. Yeah, And then, of course, in a in again, you know, I mean, I know it's such a controversial topic, although my view is I think that every single cyclist, at least from 1991 until 2011 was on highly highly, you know, augmented programs. So you know that Lance won seven of those years,

Um, in that context just tells me that he was, you know, training harder and being more specific to the race. I mean, what people don't understand is like, I mean, Lance only piqued for one race a year, like everything that that team U S Postal did was geared for that one race. Um, and also, when you really look at how much doping they did, it actually wasn't that much like, you know, when they were blood transfusing it might have been two units over the course of a race, and I'm not saying that that wouldn't help.

It would help a lot. But that's nothing compared to what people were doing just a few years before Lance came along. So Lance one, I think, his 1st 1 in 99. The guy who won before that in 98 was Marco Pantani. Before that was again in Yon Ulrich and 97. And before that was gonna be horn Reese. Bjorn Reese's nickname was Mr 60 because his hematocrit was always over 60. That's frickin stuff. Like how that guy didn't die of a stroke. I don't know.

Is that for me? Be

Oh, yeah. Lance never had a crit over 50. To my knowledge, they would basically always titrate with EPO and or hemoglobin up to 50 which was the trigger. So you know, but But I think and again, I've never I don't know, Lance at all. So I certainly don't know anything about him beyond like the little bits that I have read over time. But I do think his lactate tolerance was remarkable. Meaning, you know, we measure lactate in athletes, swimmers and cyclists when they're, you know, trying to figure out what their performances.

And as far as I can tell, there seemed to be these two FINA types. There's the one FINA type where people can tolerate staggeringly high amounts of lactate. And again it's not lacked eight per se that is causing the pain that you're experiencing. It's the hydrogen ion that accompanies the lactate, um, so lactic acid. The acid part of that is the hydrogen ion. And that's actually what's poisoning the muscle and preventing the muscle from having this effortless act in my assassin act, you know, contract release, et cetera. But we use lactate is a proxy cause where lactate is high, the hydrogen ion his high, and there are some people who can just tolerate, like incredible doses.

I used to work with Olympic swimmers and ah, I mean, they were just a couple of these guys, like they could actually be standing with a lactate of 24. When I was competing, if I had a lactate above 16 or 17 I couldn't be standing like that was just too much pain like I was on the floor. If I was over 17 I was puke ing and I saw dudes that could stand there. A 24 one of my good friends. He He won a gold and a silver medal in the Sydney Olympics and retired from swimming in 2004 then came back to swim Masters. So and was like he actually was trying to make a comeback to make the 2012 Olympic team. And when he was training for that, like, I would poke him between races and I saw him get out of a 400 into the individual medley race, which is the hardest swim race of them all. The 400 I am is I mean, you might as well just shoot yourself.

It's so painful. He got out of that, had a lactate of 18 two minutes later, not two minutes later, maybe seven minutes later, jumped on the blocks and 100 breast race, you know, came out with lactating 21. That kind of thing.

So there are those

guys. And then I think at the other end of the spectrum, the word on the street is guys like Michael Phelps. Or at the opposite end of that where they're so efficient at shuttling lactic acid out of the cell, back to the liver, where this thing called the Cory Cycle actually turns lactate back into glucose that they never have high levels of lactate. Now, again, all of this is sort of, you know, speculation, because I don't think they were very hush hush about Phelps his numbers. But I heard from reliable and reasonable sources that he would rarely have a lactate above 8.0, including when he's breaking world records. Whoa, which for me, at 8.0,

like I'm smoking and joking like That's fine. But for, you know, he was so efficient at getting rid of it that yeah, he could, you know, set the world record in the 400 I am and have elective eight

again. I don't know if this

is true, but but I've There's certainly a plausible mechanism by which it could be

well, it's fascinating that this could potentially all be engineered right that, like through use of crisper or something else, you could take all these various facets of performance enhancing modalities, extend a person's ability and so many different ways, and

create a super person. Yeah, of course. It's interesting, right? Once you start genetically doing it, it does it become cheating in the same way. Like

would we would. We does it if you have someone like Phelps, who has this genetic predisposition to getting rid of lactose black tape and you take someone like me probably has none of that. And, you know, you juice me up to his level. Is that cheating? I mean, is he? I don't know. I mean, those are the questions. I mean, this is

why people like Daniel Coyle who are so critical of Lance Armstrong say, because because on the one hand you'll have camps and say, Look, it's the great equalizer. Like,

why don't we just let everybody dope? And that's a steroid argument with them in May as well? Well, and frankly, it's more my argument. But I have

a different reason for arguing that way, which is, I think, having done these sports and nowhere near it, the high level that those guys do it. I just know how destructive they are. Like the Tour de France is the most unhealthy thing on the face

of the earth. I've heard that it's healthier to do two Tour de France on steroids than it is to do it off stare. Abso fucking lutely. When those

guys finish the tour difference there Osteo Penick mean they're bone density has eroded. They're muscle. They have lost so much muscle mass. I mean, it is a devastating gruelling event. Now nothing's going to completely ameliorate that. But like if we think that, like watching these guys kill themselves riding six hours a day, hitting peak thresholds of, you know, six watts per kilogram, if we think there's anything physiologically reasonable about that, we're out to fucking lunch.

But is that the point? I mean, isn't that the point is that you can push your mind to do something your body absolutely doesn't want to do? So you should be rewarded for

for that, you know, you and these guys were in a league of their own. I mean, professional cyclist or some of the toughest athletes out there. I mean, obviously every athlete at the peak of their game is remarkable, and and no disrespect to like the best running back in the NFL. But like you can't even compare that to what a guy does for workload, for sure, for just the pain, like the absolute sheer discomfort and the physiologic torture and the duration of in all these other things.

Well, you see it in their faces to those guys, like when they retire, they look like they're 10 years older than they are. Yeah, I mean, they've lost

all of the fat, a lot of them, You know that if you don't have fat in your face, I mean you age dramatically.

They just look exhausted, too. I mean, it looks like it's just drained them like they've forced to live 30 years inside of 10. Yes,

so it's like, What if we just say, Guess what? Everybody is allowed to use whatever amounts of e P o blood testosterone to be at the 88th percentile of what we consider normal. So everybody's allowed to walk around with the hemoglobin of 14.7 or up to 14.7 15

would cheat that right, wouldn't they? If you allow people to use her an amount, But but

I also think like that The testing on this stuff is so like it's so J V. Now there is this idea called the biological passport that was introduced many years ago, which basically said, Look, we're gonna develop a signature for every person. And now if you deviate much from your signature will that'll be the trigger, Um, and the argument again by certain people. And I think Daniel Coyle argued this a lot in one of his books. That he wrote Ripping Apart Lands was the reason. It's the reason doping is unfair because the everybody does that argument doesn't hold water is because if you're a person who naturally lives at a dramatic rate of 47 you're only getting a slight improvement going from 47 to 50. If you're a person who naturally lives at 43 you going from 43 to 50 you get a much bigger advantage to which I say yeah, but that's true on a relative basis, but an absolute level. If everybody's walking around with a hematocrit of 48 to 50 they still have the same oxygen carrying capacity. It does level the playing field.

The concern though, isn't it? I would believe the concern is you don't want people to think that the only way to do this sport is to take drugs. Well,

absolutely. And it's also worth putting in in mind that, and this is sort of my pet peeve with this whole drug and sport thing is like I mean, personally, I don't really give a shit. I mean, I have bigger things I care about then, like how many steroids Barry Bonds took to hit all those home runs? But what really does chap my ass is when people don't actually understand how steroids work, right? Like it bugs the shit out of me. When people assume that if you take steroids, you will have, you know, you will hit that many, you know, home runs, or you will run this faster. Lift this much. The only thing that steroid is doing is enabling you to recover faster from the brutal work that it takes to actually do those things. So

you know all the if if I

shot myself full of e p o. I mean, you've probably seen Ickarus, right?

I mean, I thought that was I thought he did it. I thought, uh, Bryan

Fogel. Yeah, that's a really good job of showing, like

I mean, and he was

a pretty good responder to the e p o. I think he did. Ah, growth hormone, testosterone and e p. O. I mean, you saw in the end of the day, he he finished worse the second

year round because his bike ran out. Exactly. That's my point. You see, like people don't realize, like one

little thing makes all the difference from a performance standpoint.

Yeah, he probably would have done a little bit better, but

it's not because the drugs were in him per se. It's because the drugs that were in him allowed to train more. So the reason he was a fitter rider the second year was because his watts per kilo were higher because of how much more he trained. The drugs enabled him to train that

much harder. Yeah, that's what it does. It allows you to train harder, so you recover better, so you have more output. Correct. But we don't want young kids to think that the only way to do this is start taking steroids and fuck up your endocrine system. And that's no, of course

not. But we also want to keep in mind, like See, it almost requires, like, a broader discussion,

which is like, Why do we care? Well, we care in combat sports because it allows you to inflict

more damage. No, no, no. I'm saying, like, why would Why do why? Let's just say I'm not a professional

athlete, okay? Why do

I actually care how fast I run or how fast I ride or any of these other things?

Well, because you want to brag about it like it's a major weight, right? So maybe therein lies the problem. I mean,

I mean, I you know, when I stopped cycling competitively, I think a big part of it was I just realized that performance and longevity stopped being Colin ear. They started to become somewhat orthogonal. They started to deviate, In other words, the things that I was doing that we're enhancing my performance, and I'm not even talking about drugs. I'm just talking, training wise, it seemed to come at the expense of what I believed was gonna make me live longer. So specifically, the thing I cared most about was cardiovascular health. Now the incidents of atrial fibrillation in highly trained athletes is 10 times higher than that of non athletes. So, like,

that's a little counterintuitive, right? Yeah. Why would people who have such amazingly fit cardiovascular systems have 10 times the risk of this horrible condition called atrial fib relation, which you have? Many people have it, but not young. You're not supposed to have that when you're 40 and it's usually associated with cardiovascular disease. And yet people are, you know, showing up with these. I mean, I have four patients who have had to get ablation is for atrial fib

relation. What is an ablation?

An ablation is a procedure where they stick a catheter up through the ephemeral artery or in the vein. And then they burn pieces of the heart specifically around the, um, pulmonary veins, and they basically are tryingto burn away and create, um, removed the ability of the electrical system to move in this way. So it was basically happening with this type of athletes. Hard is when your heart is constantly being exposed to that high stretch, high ejection fraction load. You're basically stretching out the electrical system because the electoral system of the heart runs within its muscles. So as you stretch it out, a certain group of people and we don't know why certain people are susceptible in certain or not. But they just developed this this dysrhythmia. So

you're sauntering the motherboard, as it were.

Yeah, yeah, You convicted. We think of that, right? You're like creating new lines to block the connection.

Wow, that's fucking crazy. Yes, I went about it. Someone said once, and I don't know if that's true, maybe you would be able to have some insight there. That there is a concept that your entire life you have a certain amount of heartbeats

that makes sense. Oh, no, of course. I've heard it many times. I don't know if that's correct. I

That's fucking scary. I don't I don't I don't

tend to agree with that, Um because I you can't compare one beat to the other. I mean, you can't You know, it's hard for me to say that, you know, And 80 to 90% ejection fraction beat under incredible load is the same as the beat that I'm, you know, like it is beat for beat, the same as the beat I experience when I'm sleeping and my heart's rating, you know, my heart's beating and 40 beats per minute. I think, um, maybe there's a directional truth to that. But I I feel like when you're talking about human longevity, it's a game of inches, and that is like something that's probably directionally true within a mile.

Now, when you're talking about human longevity and you know and you're thinking about all these different things that you could do to extend, how much of that is supplementation and do you supplement like, Are you? Are you a person who takes colloidal minerals? Or are you a person that is interested in antioxidants? Like what? What do you do in terms of that?

So my view on longevity is, it's just it's the hardest problem there is. And so you gotta have every, like, I'm agnostic about what the approaches. So I want to understand everything that you can do with respect to, you know, food, drugs, supplements, hormones And to be clear, the only difference between a drug and a supplement is one's regulated, and one is not. But, you know, I have patients that will say things

like, You know, Doctor,

I don't want to take that drug. I'd rather do it naturally. Can I do it? And it sort of like Well, okay, you you don't want to take a statin, but you do want to take red yeast rice. Well, they both inhibit H M G co a reductase. The enzyme that catalyze is the first step of cholesterol synthesis. You're willing to take one that you buy in a drug store that's totally unregulated. And you're not willing to buy the one that comes from a drug company where the FDA has their foot up the ass of the company, making it to make sure it's perfect. That just strikes me as a false equivalents. So I only say that to just say, like, I think everything should be on the table,

and then the question should be how do you decide what to do? So, um, uh, they're absolutely bunch of supplements that I take, but I don't have kind of a one size fits all approach to it, because I think you've got to be able to kind of measure what's going on in a person get a baseline and figured out. So you know, I mean, my guess is you've had a 1,000,000 people in this show. They can talk your ears off about you know which PayPal, which people should take methylated vitamins versus which shouldn't. And you have this mth fr mutation versus this one. Should you be taking this verse? Is that I think all those things were valid. Um,

some of the stuff that I find even more interesting is actually a lot less sexy, and I don't have a good answer for it, but, you know, looking at, for example, vitamin D levels. So you see a huge disparity in the vitamin D levels people have, and it begs the question to all people run effectively at the same vitamin D level. Um, and is that a function of not just their own individual, like how much sun they're getting, but more importantly, like potentially genetically where they're from. So I'm starting to feel like people who have northern European Ah, blood might actually run better at a lower vitamin D level than people like me who, you know, come from places near the equator where maybe I just evolved to see more sunlight and have more vitamin D. What's your ancestry? My parents are both from

Egypt. Oh, interesting.

Um, so and the range. Like when you look at a laboratory test when you check somebody's vitamin D, like the range that's offered is 30 to 100 is optimal range. Yeah, I'm like, That's That's probably not the range, you know. So I personally think the range is probably 40 to 60. But I also measure something called parathyroid hormone that allows me to further titrate that range

and stuff like that. Well, when you're talking about this, it's really obvious, really clear that there's so much data to go through that it's we're learning this and that this is its amount. I want to say it said its infancy. But if we look back 1000 years now, we will most certainly say we're understanding of this. Science is at its infancy.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, the issue is how do you make sense of a problem, Or how do you try to solve a problem which is unsolvable? And the reason I say that is the following? Um, you know, you have what I call kind of the medicine One point. Oh, world, Which was I define that is everything that took place before Francis Bacon. Um, you can probably tell me when that was. I'm gonna guess Francis Bacon is, like 16 52 16 70 or something like that. But that was basically the first person to come along and codify the scientific method.

So anything that came along before the scientific method may have been correct. Meaning the things that were certainly done back then that proved helpful, but they weren't grounded in a principle of science. In other words, you know, even a blind squirrel is gonna find nuts sometimes. And then we basically threw, you know, following the car, you know, the elucidation of a scientific method, the development of statistics to actually make sense of data. We then got into the sweet spot where I think we are now, which is medicine. Two point. Oh,

and to me, medicine two point. Oh is really good at solving problems that are amenable to relatively short, simple clinical trials. And there has been no better example than in this space than infectious diseases. So, like, if you think about the unbelievable improvement in human longevity that has come from antibiotics, anti viral therapy for HIV. And remember, 30 years ago, HIV was a lethal, no questions asked. Lethal condition. Today it's a chronic disease for virtually every patient with HIV. It's a chronic disease today, meaning you will die with HIV, not from

HIV, that is.

That's almost hard to fathom when you consider how shitty we are addressing other chronic diseases like heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's disease. So the problem is, if you want to know the answer, should I eat this way or that way? Should I exercise this way or that way? Should I take this drug or that rug or this supplement of that supplement to live longer? We can never know the answer in humans because there is no clinical trial that can answer that question. And we can do that experiment in everything that's not human. But we've already learned the hard way that what happens in not humans doesn't necessarily extrapolated to humans, and we can do things to be slicker about it. You know, when you study rhesus monkeys for 20 years, it's certainly more interesting than studying mice for one year. But in the end, you know,

they're still animals in captivity. They're still not in the same environment and all these things. So my view on this topic is the only way to go to this kind of medicine. Three point. Oh, is you've gotta have kind of a strategy around how you think about it. And so in many ways, that's that's if that's what I spend most of my time dealing with is what is a strategy for longevity that becomes a Skaff holding upon which you anchor every new piece of data. Because, I mean, I know things today from a data standpoint I didn't know 10 years ago, and to your point, even in five years, will look back it stuff we're doing today and thank God we have more data. Is that still the right thing to do? Um and so that strategy to me is sort of fundamentally based on three bodies of literature.

And the first is like, what did we learn from centenarians? So that people who naturally live to 100 um, they have the advantage or that body of literature has the advantage of being based on humans? It has the disadvantage of it not being experimental. So we, you know, like we don't know, Like what cause and effect was And then Secondly, if you look at all of the animal literature or non human literature where you can actually do the experiments, what's comin there, and then if you look at the underlying minute molecular mechanisms So if you I feel like if you tie those three together you come up with a general scaffolding for what it means to live longer and live healthier. Then weaken, Try toe, look at one thing at a time and say, Hey, vitamin D A or an antioxidant? Yea or nay.

So when you're it, Sze gotta be very time consuming

for you. We'll have a research team. That's when I started this practice about three years ago. I realized like I was losing the battle. My ability to sit down and read scientific papers was like shrinking, so I hired an analyst. You know, he had worked with me in the past. He was amazing. I brought him over full time to do this than another one that I mean now I have four full time analysts and I mean, as this practice grows and or you know, whatever. I have the revenue to justify it. Like I'll have 10 analysts one day in this practice and even that's not enough. I mean, approximately 100,000 papers are published every month on Pub Med, Jesus Christ. So forget I did the math on that one, So I think it's like three papers a

minute. It's pretty stunning when you think about the amount of human achievement that we've experienced just in our lifetime in that regard, like how many people are working on understanding just the mechanisms of the human body, and this date is just piling up as we speak. But the problem

is, the signal to noise ratio is almost zero. So I would say conservatively, 90% if not 99% of that is completely useless, Really? Absolutely. Um, actually wrote about this once. So when a paper comes out, if it is never sighted again, meaning for the remainder of time, no one ever even goes back to reference that paper. You could probably make the case that that paper is not relevant, and if you then further strip out auto citations, meaning the only time it's ever sighted is when the author then goes back and cites his or her own paper. Something like 70 or 80% of patient of papers never get cited outside of an auto citation

again. Is this because they're not relevant, or does it possible to get lost? Lost in the shuffle like some of them might be worth something probably

possible, But I would bet it is much, much more the former than the latter. And then on top of it, a lot of stuff comes out. And then years later you realize it was wrong, you know, or it was. And that's more often the case that it was wrong through an honest mistake than wrong through a dishonest mistake. But there's still a lot of wrong through dishonest mistake. Stuff's coming out there as well.

So how much of this date is forcing you or causing you to alter your own patterns? Well, we

we believe, internally that probably 100 papers a month enter the literature that are relevant to what we do, meaning, I mean some of the literature that comes out like, you know, the rheumatology literature might be relevant to

them but that's not what I mean. That's crazy. The 0.3 a day,

Yeah, yeah. So that's why when I say I want 10 analysts, you see why it's like it's you got his First of all, it's finding those papers, too. So how do you do that? Like what we subscribe to a whole bunch of service? Is that basically pre filter a bunch of shit for us? And then we have a system where we go about kind of pulling that stuff.

So you get those three a day and then they bring them to you. How do you have the time?

So it's the thing. It and it's funny you say that I was like, literally as I was driving here today, I was talking to a buddy of mine and I was like, Dude, I'm the fucking bottle neck and I hate it. I'm now the bottleneck because the analysts are now churning out stuff faster than I can even provide ancillary feedback because my job is like, you know, you know, you hire great people who are smarter than you and like you just guide them. You just point them in the right direction. So What we mostly do is create programs where we're going out and looking for new knowledge. So, for example, one of the questions that is tormenting me right now because I still don't know the answer is, Is there any benefit to taking human growth hormone? From a longevity perspective,

there's clearly a performance benefit. Growth hormone is probably the single most abused drug in all of sports. There's no question about that. But, um, is there a way to take it where it makes you live longer? I've never prescribed growth hormone to a patient, Um, because frankly, I'm not yet confident that I know the answer to that question. But I feel like it's worth knowing

right, because

I can certainly make a t lea a logic argument for why growth hormone could be helpful. But I can also make a T lea logic argument for why it could be harmful. And so, like many things, your knee jerk reaction to something can often be wrong. And my knee jerk reaction to growth hormone has historically been causes cancer because why well, growth hormone tells your liver to make I G F insulin like growth factor and 2/3 of tumors seem to thrive on i g f. So ostensibly, you would think while growth hormone can't be right. But then one of my analyst, Bob Kaplan, pointed out to me a year ago, He's like, You know, Peter been thinking about this. And he's like given how ubiquitous growth hormone is in sports and how long it's been ubiquitous in sports. Like, I mean, this was the drug that turned around US Olympic athletes in the late seventies, early eighties.

Um, he's like, Where's the body count? Like where all

of these people dying of cancer from all these years of staggering growth hormone use? I

don't really see it.

When we went back and looked at literature, I mean, we found that the data on growth hormone and I g f r not nearly a straightforward as people have made it out to be. In fact, there's, I mean, I could draw it, actually, for you. Not that anyone won't necessarily see this, but at least you'll see what I'm talking about. If this is percentile so higher and this is I g f level, right? So okay, idea level.

Most people are listening to this Well, actually, we were talking about that before. Yeah, So the overall

mortality curve for I G F and growth hormone is like a J curve. Meaning low I g f c really high mortality? Yes, as you go from aboutthe 70th her 80th percentile up to the 90th percentile. There's a slight increase in mortality, but this is not what you would think of like you would sort of if you were just reading the headlines, you would think it looks like

this, right? So there's a sweet spot.

Not only that, if you this is overall mortality, what if you parse this out by disease? Well, that's when it gets really interesting. So cancers curve looks like this. Very similar, yes, but Alzheimer's curve looks like this heart disease curve

looks like this. So describe that people that are well, so what

that means is so, for example, Alzheimer's disease and heart disease have an almost mon itan IQ reduction in risk. As I g f gets higher and higher and higher. It's only cancer that seems to have that uptick where risk starts to actually rise once you cross past the call it 70th percentile and so when you integrate all of these curves together, That's why you see this slight uptick. Now again, this is epidemiology. So one has to take this with a grain of salt. But this is to me when I saw this graph which Bob put together, I don't know. A while ago I was like, Wait a minute. This doesn't jive with my preconceived notion of like, growth hormone is bad. This warrant's way further exploration. And so what that basically turned into is now an enormous internal project that will take us probably a year to complete and will constantly be updated like we did this already with testosterone two years ago.

We put together like a 40 page white paper on the topic. And then at least once every two weeks, it gets updated every time a new paper comes out basically asking the question like his testosterone replacement, beneficial or harmful, And under what situations should it be considered? Versus Not And again, The goal is to do this un emotionally, and that's hard to do. Sure, because for reasons I'm not entirely clear on, basically, everyone's kind of just emotional about this

stuff. Well, they're emotional about steroids because of all the press about Barry Bonds. And you know, all the different baseball players. What that is, is it is cheating. Is it the cheating aspect of it? 100%? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's exactly what it is. I think people consider taking any kind of hormone, whether its growth hormone or testosterone as cheating. Even if you're talking about older people that take it like I was ah, looking at one of those ads, you know,

they have those ads for hormone replacement is really old looking, Jeffrey, life. I think that Dr Life Jack means fucking has got a full six pack into, like a gorilla. And my friend was like, God, that can't be healthy. I'm like, What the fuck are you talking about? Look at him. I go. What do you think a seven year old dude is supposed to look like? They're supposed to be knocking on death's door. That guy looks like he could fuck his way through a building full of teenage girls. You know,

he's like, I should say, teenage 20 year old, 21 or 19 he looks like a man who's really fit and healthy with an old guy's head. Yeah, it's weird. And I was like, You know, if it's not healthy than what is it? If that's on healthy, like, always gonna die, cancer is gonna die of a heart attack. He's gonna die, period. If you look at his head,

how much time would you give him? I gave you a if I gave you a bet. Okay, We have a $1,000,000 bet, Uh, give you an over under of 10 years. How many? How many years you're gonna give this guy? You gonna give him 20 given thorough

way. You're moving the over under. You said I have only had a 10 year window

on that. Right? You get you get a take over, but

I think I'll take over on the 10 year. Okay. Um,

what do you How many years you give him? Impossible

to know if my allowed to talk to him first.

Look, no fucking clue. What? You looking at a magazine right now? I can't because I got it was family history. I mean, honestly, of course your parents will ground

me more about how long you live and

what you look. But 70 in America is basically death

store. No, I think today Well, so that's a complicated question, actually, which is actually prompts another

analysis, and it's in the 10 year range. Yeah, No. So it

depends how you ask the question. So the question is, what is the average life expectancy of a man and a woman today in the United States? And I I mean, someone's gonna correct me, So I feel like it doesn't matter what I say. I think it's 79 81 respectively, for a man and a woman today. But the more interesting question is this one, which is So what year were you born? 67. Okay, so in 1967 what was the annual life expectancy or the average life expectancy of a man and a woman? And we could look that up, but I'm guessing it would have been. Let's see, life expectancy has been going up at 19670.32 point 6% per year.

We could back out that kegger, and let's just say for shits and giggles like the number was 60 69 or 73 or something like that. I promise you, you were gonna live one What was that? 67? 67. All right. Yeah. So do what I take the bet that you're gonna live longer than 67. Even though that was the median life expectancy the year you were born. Hell, yeah, I'll take that all day long. And so what? We're actually putting this isn't just a dumb analysis. We don't even know why we're doing this.

Sometimes we just do dumb shit that has no bearing. But what I want to do is create a graph of actual life expectancy as realized versus projected life expectancy in the year of birth. My hypothesis is that is always a positive number. What I want to know is, what's the derivative on it? Is it increasing or decreasing? So I think that science is accelerating our longevity, and that that's one of my proof points is that we are constantly underestimating how long we can live now, on the other end of that spectrum, I am not one of these futurist who thinks like there's immortality out there, You know, I would be if right now I could sign a piece of paper that would say, Peter, you willing to commit to a life span right now. So you're willing to acknowledge that if there's some major breakthrough, you'll miss out on it.

But I guarantee you this duration, like, what would you take right now if I said Joe, you could be 100 and be fully functional on 100. So when you're 100

Good run, huh? Yeah. You're gonna be like,

you're gonna be, like a fit 60 year old at 100. So you're still working out? You're still shooting pretty good. Yeah. Would you take it? No. In other words, you're willing to bet that the

time we get there, Yeah, because when it's over, it's over anyway. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, to me,

I think most people have a greater sense of confidence about where technology goes now that I think they're really only been a handful of step function changes in longevity. So, you know, the reduction of infant mortality was huge. Like once we actually figured out how to fuck the deliver babies and not kill moms like that was a big deal that had a step function improvement in human longevity. The next one was really sanitation. Like once we figured out that, like, don't shit where you drink. Huge improvement in human mortality.

Hilarious. It's amazing. President, Take that shit for granted

now, right? And then the 3rd 1 was basically germ theory. You know, starting with lister and going all the way to Fleming when we figured out, like, you know, if you if you cut open a cadaver and then go and deliver a baby, that's bad. Um, because there were these microscopic things that none of us anticipated. We haven't had a step function improvement in mortality in nearly 100 years. So what's next now? I think there are a couple of potentials for that, but what I don't know is if, like, they're gonna happen in my lifetime in your lifetime. But I want to buy the Optionality to stick around for it.

By doing all this incremental little shit, it will need three plus papers a day. The options are increasing. It's it's just seems to me that it's there's a trend, right? The trend is that you as you're saying, there is an increase of longevity, but not a huge increase. Um, but our understanding of the human body is just That's that seems to be pretty radically improving, especially in terms of nutrition, nutritional absorption, the mechanisms behind nutrition on some level. Yet on some level, I still

feel like we're in the dark ages

because you recognize the potential, you know, because I think Russian. I think

I'm just humbled by how hard it is to actually take care of people. Like I think

so. I was about

I'm about as good or responders. You're going tohave to carbohydrate reduction. So doing something as simple as just not eating carbs and not evening sugar like completely changed my health. I mean, at 40 if you compare the 40 year old me to the 30 year old me, like the 40 year old is like, literally twice as healthy as the 30 year old me. And that was through something as simple, conceptually simple as maids making this radical dietary shift

and by what standards were saying that you're twice is healthy of 40 than 30. How well do you know 45? And but what what is the e mean again? I'm speaking about love, Leo. Well, even let's talk objective

eso like what would be my lipid levels? What would be my triglyceride levels. How much body fat do I have? What's my vo two Max, like by all of those metrics like everything was just so much better at 40. Um I mean and and so Ives. But yet I've seen a lot of patients where you take the carbs out of their diet. Doesn't matter, you know. You, you, you you you make them fast. You do this. You know the only thing you just can't fix some of the underlying metabolic problems.

Like what kind of problems? No,

I think some people are just so insulin resistant that it becomes really hard to fix them without doing draconian stuff. I mean, I have one patient who he's really now I think going to in many ways become the poster child for he's definitely the toughest case I've ever had and why he's such an amazing guy is he was actually able to do something that's really hard to do, which is stick to something with complete blind faith in me. Even when it didn't feel good, even when I knew it would take a long time to see the results. So he he's probably five foot eight ways to 35 at the start. So 58 to 35 metabolic syndrome, Huge amount of fatty liver disease. Um, not the typical patient. In my practice. Most of my patients are kind of young, healthy people who want to, like, you know, want this immortality thing.

But, um, this is someone who doesn't fit that description. Probably 70 years old, Unlike you know, four drugs for blood pressure test. Very heavy for a seven year old. Yeah, yeah. Oh, and And he just had a hip replacement. He basically couldn't walk. Everything was. And we had tried, carbohydrate restricting him before. It just didn't work.

And part of it was I don't know how he just it was hard for him to stick to it. And Bobo. So I just said to him, Look, man, I want to try something completely fucking extreme, and I want to try it for six months every five days. Then put me every month you're gonna spend the 1st 5 days eating 500 calories a day of Akita genic diet, and it's basically just gonna be like vegetables. Oil, like it's basically even bunch of salad. And then for the next 25 days, you're gonna do a time restricted ketogenic diet where you're only gonna eat in that eight hour window, and then you're gonna repeat that every month for six months, and he was like, I won't be able to do it.

It was like, I know, I know. It seems crazy. I think you will be able to do it. Because remember, all that time that you're not eating, your body's gonna have to start eating itself, and so you'll be all right. And I'm giving you grossly oversimplified version of what we did. But it was much more complicated than that. There's a bunch of other stuff that we had to do to manage it as well. Well, I mean, he just sent me. I mean,

we were in touch all the way along, so it was clear that this was working, but it was just kind of amazing to get a picture from him. Two weeks ago as we just passed that six month mark, he weighs a buck. 75. Whoa, That's £60 in six months. Holy shit. His liver, this is and that's interesting. But not nearly as interesting to me, is the fact that his Trans Am in aces, which are the enzymes that the liver makes in response to how much fat is accumulating. You know, normal is like less than 40.

He was, like, in the hundreds. And, you know, the ultrasound showed it was just a bunch of fat, and he doesn't drink alcohol, so we knew it was fatty liver, nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. You know, now he's in the twenties and thirties.

Blood, his previous diet mosey, eating normal.

Dude, he wasn't particularly junk food, you know, it was a junky guy. The problems. He was metabolically broken. So I'll come back to why I felt like this was unnecessary intervention, despite how draconian it waas. He's on a treadmill 30 minutes a day. Now. He couldn't walk before you take £60

off the treadmill. You mean walking at your

walks on a treadmill now?

Yeah. Yeah, basically, once you get the hip

hip replacement? Yeah. Um, so it's just it's basically reprogrammed him. And and so the reason I have occasionally pulled that trick out, although it hasn't always worked, is based on this case study I read. That's very famous. I'm sure some gotta be. Someone in this show has talked about it, but it was. The paper was published in either the early seventies or late sixties, but it was the longest ever medically supervised fast. So is this guy who weighed somewhere between three and 75 £400. He did a 382 day inpatient medical fast, where he had only water and minerals. At the end of that,

something like 382 days he was down from Call it 400 to a buck. 65. This paper was published seven years later. He weighed like a buck. 70 bucks 75.

The crazy thing about that guy's this skin tranq, too. Yeah, so he didn't have that problem that a lot of people have When they lose a lot of weight where they have all this extra skin, his skin went along with his body. Yeah, and I wonder if that's just interviewed A genetic elasticity? Exactly. I would like to know. I would like to know if he had stretch marks when it shrank. You know,

you know, it's funny. I've never tried to figure out, like whatever came of that patient. I can't imagine he'd be alive now, though. I know he was young at the time, but the part that interested me was that he didn't regain all the weight. Seven years later that suggested that there was ah, like it was a reprogramming. You got the blue screen of death on the computer. Did the hard reset? He got to be a new person again because I'm not of the camp that thinks, like that guy got to be £400 just cause he was a glutton and a sloth like something fundamentally broke in that dude. And what broke was he basically lost the ability to partition fuel correctly? Now, could food play a role in that?

Absolutely. Certainly. If you eat enough shit, that can happen. But I think it's more complicated than that. I think it could be epigenetic if not outright genetic, but probably Maur epigenetic. Um and so I'm interested in this idea of how do you reset people? Um

And again, this is all kind

of long winded way of saying like, one of the advantages of practicing medicine is you get to use a humble because every every time you think you're smart and you're like I got this shit figured out like you don't There's like some patient who's got a problem that you can't figure out and it just drives you nuts. But you realize, like, I mean, even just today I was talking to a friend of mine is not a patient, but I mean, my God. He's just going through, like this devastating health situation he's been he has seen. Every doctor has been to Mass General. He's been to Stanford. He's been Hopkins. He's been to the best hospitals in this country. They can't fucking come close to figure out what's wrong with this guy. And so, as bad as that is for him, I think that level of humility is actually good for the profession. It's good what

is going on with him that

they can't figure he's having these horrible neurologic symptoms where he gets these physical ations and muscle weakness. And obviously the big concern about six months ago when this started was he was presenting like he had Lou Gehrig's disease, which, you know obviously is about as bad a fade as you can have. Um, luckily, that has been ruled out, and they've done a 1,000,000 muscle biopsies and all these other things, but they don't know what's going

on. Has he altered his diet is taken?

No, we don't know what's going on is certainly far outside of my area of expertise. I mean, what we talked about today was, Look, man, all we really need to be doing is fixing your symptoms at this point. In other words, there's understanding what's causing this and then managing the symptoms around it. I think the smartest people in the country have figured out they have no goddamn clue what's going on. Let's now figure out how to manage your symptoms, your energy levels, your mood,

all of these things. What is what has he done for that?

Well, I told him today I was like, Look, I'm gonna send you a kit. We're gonna do a certain blood test on you in a certain urine test on you, and I want to just figure out what's going on with your four hormone systems, basically four hormone systems that play a pretty big role in how we feel and adjusting Those doesn't not convinced it necessarily makes you live longer but it can certainly make you live better. So I want to kind of understand, I suspect he's not firing on all cylinders on that dimension, whether it's a result of whatever is going on that nobody can figure out or not. But I'd rather focus on something that I think we can fix.

Yeah, that the change in diet thing with that guy where he went and fasted for 360 plus days. What did he when he got back on food?

Great question. I do not know the answer. Now that might be that. That just I don't recall that being in the paper. But if it wasn't, I don't know if anybody did the follow up, but that's to me. That's the interesting

question to you. Gotta feel amazing, like he got his life back, right? Like

and my recollection is he was a young man. He was in his late twenties,

I think. Yeah, I believe I remember that as well. I think, um, I would like to find out what he's eating now to keep his weight at the same level. I mean, he must just be so thankful. First of all, he might be like. I mean, you have friends there, pretty overweight, and one that died pretty recently, who was really big. And he just had this feeling when he would meet people. I mean,

he talked about it a little bit, was just obese. It was just this thing where you're just Oh, look at this enormous fat guy. And then to go from that to Oh, there's a guy, there's a normal guy. Yeah, that's just a guy £168 guy. Normal. No difference between you and I gotta tell

you, I know we loved. We love to beat up on fat people. We love to turn it into a character defect, but I gotta tell you, virtually every fat person that I know where that I've taken care of, they're not disproportionately eating more than their peers.

In some

cases, yes, but not on balance, that the problem is that they simply do everything incorrectly metabolically,

you know, So their body is functioning correctly. Yeah, it's, you know, and the

opponent, I think there are dietary exacerbations. I think certainly not exercising makes things worse. So there are lots of predisposing factors, but at the end of the day. What's happening is when you and I eat like let's let's take a meal that, like if you had pancakes, bacon and scrambled eggs, that would be like a really good mix of God. Be 1/3 carbs, 1/3 protein of third fat. So it's like a shift on a nutrient, right? If you are, I ate that. It probably wouldn't be that good for us, but,

like we'd you know, let's say we just finished a workout or something like We're going to partition such that that glycogen will first and foremost go to replace the muscle and liver stores of glycogen. Because we have bigger muscles and our muscles and more insulin sensitive, we can actually disproportionately put more glycogen into our muscles into the leg muscles because you'll have done that run up the hills right and then, furthermore, when we want to recruit energy again, will have the ability to actually go back and get fat spent, you know. In other words, breakdown fat at lower a teepee demands than necessarily always going to glycogen. So in other words, we partition fuel in a smarter way. And these patients, I mean you can measure this clinically using something called R E R. And, of course, doing other blood tests like they just they just they can't break down their own fat,

so their body is essentially broken in that regard and that can be fixed with diet. It's a hard problem because the

way I explaining to people is and I'm so clinically I'm not interested in weight loss, right? I mean, that's just not I'm much more interested in longevity. And yes, sometimes weight loss comes with that. But I like if I ever get stuck doing, you know, weight loss, like I'm doing the wrong thing for my interest. But, um, the way I say to people when they want to lose weight is Look, you don't want to lose weight, you want to lose fat. Let's let's be very clear on our semantics. It wait is irrelevant,

right? Unless you're a cyclist or some athlete for whom the actual scale means something. But for for people like us, you wanna lose fat, not wait. And then when you say you want to lose fat, what does that mean in English? Well, do you want fewer fat cells or Do you want each fat cell to be smaller? Those air Totally different questions if you want. Fewer fat cells have liposuction, but we know that that doesn't fix you metabolically. So if you want fewer, if you want to be less fat, you have to have smaller fat cells. Now a fatso conceptually has two inputs and one output.

So now I say, Let's reframe the question. You got a room with 100 people in it. You want fewer people in the room. What has to happen? More people have to leave the room, then enter the room. So similarly, if you have a fat cell and you wanted to be less fat, you got to get more fat out of it than enters it. And the fact that exits the cell exits via a process called light policies and the inputs to a fat cell or something called de novo Lipo Genesis, which is turning carbohydrates into fat and Rhea stare. If it cation, which is turning fat like in a free fatty acid into a trig, let's ride back into a fat cell.

Each of those

three doors is controlled by hormones, and so the purpose of nutrition or fasting or exercise or drugs or hormones. All these things is to manipulate those hormones in the direction of what I call negative fat flux, or what would be referred to in the literature is fat balance, negative fat balance and the hormones that drive that are many insulin hormone sensitive, like paste, testosterone, estrogen, cortisol being the five Most important, in my opinion, maybe someone will disagree with that, But I think those are the five that ruled the roost. And so you know, how do you manipulate those while insulin seems to be the most important of the five, and there's no better way to lower insulin than to not eat? So the first thing that happened to that dude who went 382 days without anything but water and minerals is he basically had very low insulin levels. In fact,

once he got into raging ketosis, which he got into by about days seven, his insulin came up only to prevent him from going into ketoacidosis, which was what would happen if he had no insulin response. In other words, if he was a type one diabetic, he would have died of ketoacidosis because he wouldn't have had the insulin to regulate the uptick of key tones. But if you were, I did this because we have a normal pancreas. We would actually REM ache just enough insulin to suppress key to Genesis. And keep that beta hydroxy butyrate level in the, you know, kind of in the neighborhood of probably seven or eight mil Imola, as opposed to getting north of 12 to 15 which is when you get into trouble. So you know, how do you manipulate insulin?

Nutrition is the first way. If you can't fast, the next best thing is to reduce carbohydrates. Carbohydrates. Obviously you're the most insula genic of food, although protein could be quite insula. Jessica's well, it has a different response. Um, and then that's when you start to think about these other things. You know, I've seen patients where they just can't lose weight, and I watch what they're doing and they're doing everything right, but they just can't lose weight. But then you notice their cortisol levels through the roof. It's hard to get rid of fat when you have lots of cortisol.

Cortisol is a very anabolic hormone, too fat and a very cata bolic hormone to muscle, which is the exact opposite of what we want. Testosterone, of course, is the exact opposite. Testosterone is cata bolic too fat but anabolic to muscle. Um And then, of course, you know women have a harder time because once women go through menopause, they lose all the estrogen and all the testosterone. And so now they lose two hormones that play a very important role in regulating this.

So for these people that are having the issue with cortisol levels, that's exacerbated by stress, right? Yes. So stress actually exacerbates your weight gain? Absolutely. Ah, that's interesting. In addition to a whole bunch of other, literally the same dye and gain more weight because of stress? Absolutely. Wow.

Again, hormones are what's driving fuel partitioning. You know you're responsible for what you put in your mouth. But in many ways, at that point, like the hormones take over and decide where it's going,

that's fasting. Now you yourself What? What's your diet like? I mean, you told me only once

a day, but yeah, I'm 11 meal a day, sometimes two

meals a day. How many calories you're taking in

you know, nowhere near what I used to. I just don't train that much anymore. I mean, I kind of lift three days a week, and then I I ride like a stationary bike, like a pallet on our I prefer this thing called a wa hoo kicker where you actually put your bike on it? So I do that three or four times a week? Um, I would guess when I sit down to throw down, it's probably 3000 calories

hot in one meal, huh? Yeah. Although the promise I'm a fucking pig like I'm kind of discussed it like I can eat a lot. It's gross. Like I gross people out. It's pretty for me. The only

eat three 1000 calories in a sitting is like tame. Really? Yeah, I know. I haven't eating disorder. Really. I mean, I sort of I I think I have disordered eating. Yeah, I

I'm simply you just enjoy it because you do it once a day. No, under any circumstance. Like I I stress eat.

I, um I I do get a dope. Like I don't get a dopamine high from gambling or, you know, alcohol. Like I don't like those things are not things that I can abuse. Like when I'm really in a shitty place in life. Like I I sued and punish myself with food.

A lot of people. D'oh! So you could relate. And as a thin man, you know, when you're talking to people that air large and have the same issue, it's ah, got

No, it's total. I mean, I completely understand what these people are going through, at least in as much as what they is. The is the physiologic desire for it. I mean, obviously, they will experience something even worse because there's the like I can like. Look, I don't have abs on. I don't have veins in my abs anymore. I used to when I was in a ketogenic diet, you know, 7% body fat. I was completely ripped. I'm not ripped anymore,

you know, relative to that, that kind of bugs me, but like, nobody really knows that, I mean, nobody really gives a shit, so I can still like, look like a super healthy dude. A super lean dude, even if I'm not, Um, but oh, my God. Like when shit's going wrong. Like I want to eat some of the worst foods that have ever

been creative. Why's that instinct there? Why's the instinct that when you're not feeling like for me, it's tired? Like if I'm tired, like if I'm coming home from a gig, it's two o'clock in the morning. It's very difficult for me to drive past Wendy's. You know I want to go, Wendy.

You know, that could be that could be accorded. That could

be an adrenal issue. So a lot

of times we'll see when people either turned to sugar or salt in times of fatigue. A lot of times it can be, you know, they don't have the right level of free court assault that moment in time.

I've always feel it's a willpower issue, because if I could just get home, I'll cook something healthy. And then I have victory, you know? Yeah, because if I get home, I know I've got healthy food at home. I eat something really good and it's just a cz good. But there's something about also there's like you doing something, you know, you shouldn't D'oh! There's a little weird little charge there. Yeah, that's interesting. I mean,

I guess it's different for different people. I think for me, if I'm really going to be brutally honest about it, I think it's that I like. I sometimes just want to punish myself. And I'm like, you know, like eating bad food is like when you're bad, you eat bad

food. You give yourself a cheat day. Um, you know, I don't Not really. I mean, I think these

days and you know you've got kids, so you know what I mean? Cheat days just present themselves often enough where other reasons. And unfortunately I think for me, the cheat meals are a lot of times cleaning up the kids played

or something like that. You know, like like the funny thing is, I just I really kind of watched like shitty food. Like I like macaroni and cheese

court. I just for if they don't eat their macaroni

and cheese, I gotta eat it. My kids asked me to make them peanut butter and jelly the other day, and they don't Each is really good. Fucking fantastic. Especially the glass of milk. They don't eat the crusts. And I'm like, Well, these crushed shouldn't go away. Oh, God. The kids in Africa that should eat that. So I ate the Kremlin. I thought about all the bread with peanut butter and jelly. Eight in those crusts are basically a fucking sandwich. It's like I'm pretending that I'm just eating a little crying a lot.

I'm worse than you, dude. You know what I would've done in that situation

out of, like, peanut butter? Julie's. Okay, Well, I would have started by saying there's

not enough peanut butter and jam on these crusts like I don't have the right ratio. So I would have

got the peanut but in the jam and didn't the crust

in there and like, and then I would have made a sandwich.

I'm just happy that I did need a sandwich of my own as well as the crusts, because I probably could once once the fucking gates are open. Once I'm out there making spaghetti and meatballs like All right, let's get some fucking ice cream in this mix too, you know? Let's, um, already fucking off. So what do you What do you eat when you sit down for these 3000 calorie meals

s O? If I'm in control of the meal, which I usually am I'm I'm super boring, dude. So it's like to have a salad in a bowl that's larger than my head. So I was referred out. Is a manly bowl that's the definition of a manly bowl, So it's got to be like a staggering amount of salad, and my salad is the same every freaking day. It's romaine lettuce. It's, you know, tomatoes, mushrooms, cucumbers, carrots. And then the dressing is just extra virgin olive oil,

freshly squeezed lemon, salt and pepper. It's pretty bland salad in that sense, but I mean, I can eat that all day, every day, and then it's a serving a protein, and I usually cycle through salmon pork steak, you know, get some gamey meat, like whatever. I just sort of cycle through that. And then I usually have some sort of starchy vegetable to go with it. So, um, potato rice.

You know, lately the last couple of weeks I've been skipping the starch in just mainlining extra salad and extra protein. Um, but you know, but But that's insane. That's what I'm in San Diego, where I have control over what I eat more in New York. I never eat in my apartment like I just never cook. So I always go out and there it's a little less regulated. So I mean, I just love Indian food. I love Persian food. I love food that unfortunately is, you know, got more carbs in it then I'm probably suited for, but I try to modify.

So, like, last week, I had them. Bob was actually one of my head analyst. He lives in Boston. He came down to New York for a couple of days. We were doing some work, and we went out for He loves Indian and I love Indians. We would have for an infant night and who hadn't eaten all day. So we ordered, I think, seven or eight entrees and the waiter's like, you know, Ah, you guys know you ordered seven or eight entrees.

We were like, Hey, we got it, We got it. We're good. And so, you know, we sort of skipped the non or maybe had one non to split instead of normal. I would have had, like, four nuns and only had one bowl of rice,

but still

a lot of carbs. It is. Yeah.

Naan bread is insane.

Yeah. Luckily, Bobby more of it than I did. And he's way more Jack than me so he could get away with eating way more non than me. But, yeah, that night. I mean, also, those sauces are like, so fatty. Like I'm sure that was a 4000 calorie throw down. Um, the other thing I'm pretty good about is when I'm done, I'm done. So that's the other thing about time restricted feeding that I think I get away with MME. Or because,

like when I go back to my apartment, I will rarely have another bite. And when I wake up in the morning, it's like black coffee. You know, I'm not sneaking little shit in throughout the day like, whereas if I'm not fasting, it's just too easy for me to just like Oh, yeah, again, my office. Like I shared my office in New York, I share with another doctor who it's his office actually going to sub let an office there. But like I've never seen more shit in my life. Like the stuff patients bring for him to eat

and patients bring him food. Non stop doctor, of course, trying to torture him for torturing that?

I don't know. Maybe. But it's like you know where drug reps will bring stuff by or something like that. There's just like there's an endless barrage of bad food,

but it's like good bad food. Delicious.

Like if they were bringing like Oreos, that actually wouldn't tempt me despite the monkey

home cooked Brownie. Yeah, exactly like they get the name of

God. I can't remember the name of some of these bakeries up there, but yeah, there's, like, some ridiculous shit that shows up and every once in a while, like I'm like, OK, the fast is breaking at four o'clock today. Give me one of those scones,

but as long as you do it with moderation, you think you're okay? Yeah,

except that my motto in life is moderation is the only thing worth doing in moderation. So the problem is, once I start like it's usually the wheels come off the bus

pretty quick. Do you try to mitigate that with exercise like, Do you say that I went off the rails today, So let's hit the gym and go hard.

Ah, it's less that it's usually I anticipated and so like so so last week, a buddy of mine went to see the David Bowie exhibit. Did you see it? By the way, the Brooklyn? No. Are you a Bowie fan? It all? Yeah. Oh, dude, it's there till mid June. Or gets in Brooklyn. Yeah, it's at the Brooklyn Museum.

It isn't Brooklyn a couple weeks ago, but I was only there for two days for the UFC and how to

show out there, huh? So probably best shows I've ever seen. Really? Unbelievable. I didn't realize it, but like a closed at 11 p.m. And they just didn't have the heart to tell me. So I was there till midnight before they finally came And, like, escorted me out of the building. They're like, Sir, we closed an hour ago.

I was like, Damn sorry, man. So what is

it? It's like an exhibit of all of his art. All of his music, all of it.

It's like it's done. You know, when you go

to museums and they put the headphones on you and you feel like push the button to hear the thing, it doesn't work that way. Like whatever you stand near, you get the music associated with that plus remind us and narrative

as necessary, huh? But it was like I've never like they. I think they had every one of his costumes. Wow, it was It was

epic. So anyway, that night, I knew we were going to go out for a killer dinner before in Brooklyn before he went to the show. And so normally I exercise in the morning. But that day I was like, Look, I will. Your muscles will be a little bit more insulin sensitive If you can exercise about 30 minutes before you eat, that's probably about the sweet spot. So if I were to ride it like eight in the morning and then not eat until seven at night, I mean, I would still eventually get the glycogen there, but it wouldn't be quite as easy would require a little more insulin. So in that case, I just modified my day and was like, you know,

made my schedule such that I could ride at 5 p.m. In anticipation of that. And I also wrote a little longer and a little harder, just, you know, let's really crush this session so that you know, I could go on enjoy