It is a very simple observation that sex is sexy. That is almost but not quite a tautology. Yet its implications seem, at least to me, to be quite profound and easily missed, given that one could argue from first principles that sex is ultimately one of the most powerful forces shaping human society. But whenever we attempt to discuss sex directly, are autonomic nervous. System becomes engaged if we're not very careful. As the comedian Tom Lehrer once said, when correctly viewed, everything is lewd. If you look hard enough, you will see that nearly every sentence has a double on Tonda like that last one. As a result, when we attempt to analyze and discuss sex and sexuality using our prefrontal cortex, the conversation almost reliably goes off the rails,

with the probability approaching one as our lower brains become engaged, aroused and amused. It's almost designed not to be discussed herbal. Yet there are two groups of people I see who do better than the rest of us in this regard, some academics, such a cz evolutionary theorist, physicians and sex researchers and commercial sex workers. In this episode, I'm interviewing one of the world's most famous actresses, yet her name is all but unknown. She is Ashley Matthews, creator of Riley Read, one of the top porn stars of our time. My goal in this conversation is to try to stop sex from becoming sexy just long enough so that we might learn a little bit more about how the pornography community and its civilian clientele are now interacting. Now you may wish to say that you have never found pornography interesting, but that doesn't make a lot of sense when you consider that an individual's desire to avoid it doesn't stop it from affecting society as a whole.

Like it or not, pornography is like dark matter, forming an Einstein lens with an immense gravitational field affecting everything around it. You don't have to watch it directly to feel it distorting us by monitoring our hypocrisy ese so that it can cater to our denied Selves. It also presents a strange mirror to our society, as if there were in Newton's law for pornography. It appears that everything we do here on Earth in civilian life is mirrored on planet porn. They have a wage gap, but one that at least naively goes in the other direction. When I call Ashley at her office, she has to be sexy to her coworkers simply to be professional. And she claims that her experience with onset harassment is near zero. Now I'm in no position to evaluate these claims, but it takes some getting used to. And just like another planet, there may be no easy way back from a one way ticket to becoming well known as a performer.

Now I should probably describe the ground rules for the conversation you're about to hear so that you can better understand the context of the episode. I asked Ashley to humor me that we would both try to lay off explicit language. For the most part, we also agreed that we were not going to talk about sex much whether we were going to try to talk around it. I'm sure the ratings will suffer as a result, but if I'm honest, I'm not really that interested in interviewing the character of Riley Reid. I'm sure that would have been fun, but here I get to do something far more interesting because I'm talking to the person. Ashley Matthews both created her and plays her. I told Ashley that I wanted to present her in a light in which she has seldom seen. She is, by nature playful and charming, and that comes through here a times. But she's also hugely successful and courageous as a businesswoman who has stayed for years at the top of one of the world's most brutal occupations. With her charm and her sweetness seemingly intact,

the woman is polite to a fault and humble whenever we speak. She has few, if any, of the attributes we usually associate with stereotypes of erotic performers or commercial sex worker. She's also embraced her own bodily vulnerabilities as assets rather than deficits, and she's induced others to talk about such things in public. In that respect, at a bare minimum, she's a role model to assault, so the subject here is not. Ashley is a performer, but instead her is an observer and analyst. I don't ask her about details of her sex life because I've you. Everybody's personal sex life, including a porn stars, is none of anyone else's business in the healthy society.

If that is what you're looking for, you confined in almost anyone else's interview of Ashley instead, in the midst of what appears to be peak shame of a new world wide shame kink bubble. Fueled by social media, Ashley is one of the few free voices, having long ago learned how to turn our shame and discomfort into her profitable business with recurring revenue. As a result, we get to discuss terrifying topics like the awesome power of the state to harassed and target businesses like hers working with in our legal framework. This is done by trying behind the scenes to make their access to banking. And commercial service is far more difficult, such as happened during the Obama areas. Quiet Operation Choke point. While I find this appalling and disturbing, we also need to discuss other means for facing disturbing trends that are going under analyzed within the pornographic industry. Perhaps the most disturbing of these is the mainstreaming and promotion of so called incest porn on the tube sites, which serve up free videos to anyone with an Internet connection and a willingness to get past modest access controls.

This is a challenge, given the obvious risk and concerns to anyone who believes in free speech absolutism. I hope you give actually a chance that This gives us all food for thought. It's a tough conversation, but with a kind and wonderful subject. Without further ado, I bring you Miss Ashley Matthews. Hello, You found the portal. I'm your host, Eric Weinstein. I'm here in studio with Special Guest today. Ashleigh Matthews Ashley Thanks for

coming by the Portal. Thank you for having me

Now. It's a unusual episode of the portal because the way I see it, you are Ashley Matthews. But you've created a character who's an actress named Riley Reid, who portrays a series of characters in erotic films and shorts. So you have a successful business, you're a successful businesswoman, and I came to know about your existence through sort of, ah, kind of an odd chain of events. Which is that when I did one of my first large live shows with Sam Harris and Ben Shapiro at the Masonic in San Francisco, I believe that you were tweeting about how excited you were to attend the event and that people said, Wow, Riley Reid is going to your event and I said, Who's Riley Reid? And people thought, Wow,

you really don't know. This is an incredibly famous erotic actress who is apparently very interested in rationality, psychedelics, sexuality and sort of understanding where our country is going from An unusual viewpoint. So you were at that

show? Yes,

I waas How did that impress you?

I I, to be honest, wanted there to be more conversation about, like, all the things I mean, Sam Harris talks about it all like the free will on this and the that type of thing. But I think it was a lot of politics type things. Kind of Ben Shapiro and him kind of talking a lot back and forth. I didn't really get to hear much from you.

Well, I tried to stay out of when they were trying to get into. Is there a god is there? No. God, I figured that's like the sharks and the jets, Bloods and the Crips. You

don't want to get in the middle? Of course. Right. But nonetheless, it was I loved it. It was great.

Now, what drew you initially to that world of Sam Harris and his ah, his constellation of

issues. Ah, The first time I listened to him, a friend of mine recommended one of his podcasts about social media and kind of Thea, what is it like, how it manipulates you? The manipulation and social media and social media is such a huge part of my life and my job. The, um I thought it was really important for me to take a look and understand it deeper in a way that I've never really even visualized it or even noticed what was going on in the social media world. And so because I work in and we kind of all now work in a, um I thought it was kind of like a duty to know exactly what we're all doing and kind of like helping influence. So when I first heard that podcast, I was really intrigued by and thought that it was Ah e thought that Sam was, like, so well spoken and it was very interesting, and I wanted to look more into his work and whatnot. I listened to a few more of his podcasts and learned about his ah,

fight against religion and his, um, perspectives on free will, which were things that I've never even heard of before. And, um, I grew up religious myself. So to be ableto listen to an atheist Talk about all of these things. I kind of always felt within myself without ever actually expressing a, um I thought was really interesting and beautiful. And I felt like I was like, Oh, here's like somewhere I can really and things that I feel to be within me, but never actually expressed or found. I guess my following where fellow peers that I could speak to about this. So,

um, yeah, I was really very interested in everything he had to say. And I'm an active listener on his Ah, podcasts

are you do? Would you self described as an atheist? That's an appropriate

question, I I would say so. I didn't think that at the time that I was, but now kind of learning more of what it is expressed to be. I would consider myself anything STs

interesting. Now, the way in which you sort of cropped up in my life a second time was that I started looking into the aftermath of something I had known nothing about, which was called Operation Choke Point. And this has been initiated under the Obama administration. If I understand it correctly, where the f d I C and perhaps the Justice Department, um, came to realize that they could put a lot of pressure on the financial system, not to do business with people in certain sectors of the economy or to make it very difficult for them to get in access to regular financial institutions. And I recall article, our interview. Maybe it was in paper. I can't remember where it was, where you were talking about the fact that you couldn't get normal credit and easy access to commercial banking despite the fact that you were running a very successful and profitable business as a businesswoman.

Yeah, um, there's a lot of there's a lot a lot of, ah, adult actresses and directors and whatnot. People who have aah had their accounts shut down in banking institutions and things like that. I have had simple things were like email servers where you can kind of like sudden blast emails. Thio your subscribers and whatnot kind of reject me and being able to be able to use them like Male Chip was one of the programs where I wasn't able to use it on, um, there's like many, many more. When I was like building my website. I was trying to like build my website from kind of like third parties, not trying to follow the standard adult website brands because I felt like they took a large percentage of our money. So I was like, What other avenues can I attract that can work with me? And I was searching for months and months to find someone to like a simple to hold my band with and what night and it was really difficult.

Um, and I ended up having to speak to, like, specific owners and reach out directly to be able to be like, Listen, this is who I am. This is what I want Would you be willing to work with me? And now through that I've worked with certain companies where I'm like their biggest Ah, um, one of their biggest clients. And I think they work with a lot of sports networking and this and that and still my adult website is there. I'm like their number one client and s o. I feel very fortunate that they would take me on, but it took a lot of research and ah, lot of e mails being sent out to people to be able to be like, Listen,

I am not a criminal. I'm not a bad guy. Like, you know, I understand that there are things that make the adult industry complicated because I have to make sure people are 18 and older and they don't want to be, you know, giving access to people who are not of the age. And how do you find that they are 18 and all of the retune regulations. So I understand that there are those kinds of rules that take place that make it a little bit more

parts that you except that is, I mean, if I refer to you as a commercial sex worker, you're comfortable with the designations. All right. So as the C. S. W you accept that there are some added requirements for doing this kind of work, So that is legit and above

board? Yes, of course. And so I think that the problem is that so many companies just don't even want to take the risk. That makes it a bit more of, ah, struggle for us to try and find legitimate businesses that want to do business with us, even though I think that they're missing out on a huge market by not doing, and I'm very curious as to some of the reasons why they even don't do it. It may be politically. Religion has something to do with it. I'm sure

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when obscenity was a much hotter topic, um, in particular because of the need to establish a standard by which something might be deemed obscene on there were even people who said we should not have any concept of obscenity legally, Um, it was very much on people's minds that ah, obscenity and the erotic arts were part of free speech. So you had, you know, novels like Lady Chatterley's Lover or Tropic of Cancer that, um, were deemed too racy to be sold s. So you weren't even necessarily talking about films or or pictures. Even text was considered too hot to handle. And for whatever reason, that branch of the free speech discussion has somewhat dropped out of most people's consciousness. Or you. Do you find that as well?

Yeah, I would say so. Um, I definitely think that to some extent it's somewhat there, and I don't know if it's just in two different degrees where it's like gay rights or things like that, but definitely nothing, really. That is necessarily adult related in our, you know, triple X community.

So, um, one person that you've worked with who has caught my attention on a number of occasions is this man, John Stagliano and John Stagliano is famous for first porting the concept of gone Zo, which was originally popularized by Hunter S. Thompson and journalism into porn. That is, he abstracted it away from journalism and started bringing it into pornography in the sense that he was using handheld cameras. He was making use of the switch to VHS from film and one of the things that he was doing if I understand correctly and you should feel free to correct, um is that he was showing females enjoying sexuality rather than being spied upon by the lens, Actually actively engaged for their own pleasure and that this was in some weird way a feminist up turning of the concept of pornography. Do I have my facts even vaguely

correct? Yeah. Yeah, I'd say so.

So then John weirdly ran afoul of, um, federal prosecutors having to do with the 1973 standard, which needs to be more in all of our consciousness called Miller vs California. Are you? Is Miller vs California Something that occupies your thoughts? Do you know about now? Oh, boy. Okay. I don't know what I'm not a legal expert, but this is I I think this is still the governing, um, case law there, there was originally it's, you know, I guess you can't check me,

but see if this even plays correctly. Um, my understanding is that in 1957 there was a decision called Roth versus United States, which introduced the idea that an average person applying contemporary community standards, whatever that means, I would have to find obscene work to be in the prurient interest that it arrives, arouses passions and maybe makes us lascivious. right, and that that was followed in the mid sixties by 1966 something called Memoirs versus Massachusetts, which was a much more liberal standard, which said that the work had to in question had lack all redeeming social importance. And therefore, if you could just put one quotation from Shakespeare somewhere in your work, you were almost certainly going to be safe because anything that was redeeming would keep something from being deemed obscene. And then the court revisits in 1973 and comes up with a three pronged approach. And it says that somebody applying contemporary community standards has to find the work to be in the hole in the Peruvian interest of sex,

that it has to run afoul of offensive standards. I think on this state books and, um, lastly, it has to be seriously lacking in redeeming scientific, literary, political or social importance, so not totally lacking. It just has to be fairly lacking that is terrifying in the age of the Internet, because what is a contemporary community standard when we have one giant community? If you make porn in the San Fernando Valley, let's say where it's traditional Headquarters has been What if it gets viewed in Ogden, Utah? Um, how do you know you're not violating somebody else's community stand? Are you worried about this at all?

Oh, I'm definitely I mean, the to me, it's a It's very extreme, because what one perspective is to one person is totally different to another. Your life experiences, I mean, are gonna be completely different. You're even like, you know, religion has a huge play in all of these types of things. And I think that a lot of people just have totally different ideas on what is okay and not okay. And I think a lot of it is even just from lack of experience or perspective or communication with different people. So I think that some people, even like, like many even of my own friends, have totally different views on pornography and actors and actresses in the adult entertainment industry at once they meet them.

They're like, Wow, I didn't even think that you guys would even, you know, be this type of person. I've had people who, like speak to me directly where they're like I didn't like you until I listened to a podcast where I was like, Oh, she's like a real human being. So I think that in general, it's It's really daunting and terrifying the fact that if I want to dio some really intense, hard core scene, that too, maybe the general public will think it's, you know, you know,

regular hot porno, you know? But then the there might be, you know, 5% of the population who's like, Oh, my God, what did

she just do? Well, And that's just said there's no way that you can control where your material will be consumed. So having a pre Internet thing almost 50 years old. Ah, decision Govern in part who can be brought up on federal charges. My understand was that Stagliano about 10 years ago was brought up on was possibly facing three decades in prison for making pornography. No, you're like, 28. If that would. That would put you at nearly 60 years old before you

got out. Oh, yeah.

So what? What do you think? What are your thoughts on this? What do we do if we mean look, as you probably know, we've been talking about free speech issues in this intellectual dark web group for example, and a lot of the problems that we're finding are not exactly free speech issues. It's not really the government that's trying to shut you down, but instead, um, it's sort of the informal instant, the institutions of civil society, like newspapers and universities that have suddenly come up with a new concept, which is hate speech and even simple biological reasoning. It's sometimes now considered hates. Do you see any tie in between the erotic community and potentially even the scientific community and the ways in which, um, these amorphous standards might get invoked?

I mean, I could hope that there is some sort of way that we can change these types of laws or perspectives and what not? I'm not exactly sure what it would take. I don't know if there's gonna be like some sort of new television series that kind of lights people up in a different way that now people can have a perspective. Where they look at us is like humans, and they humanize us. I think that it's a huge part of it is not. We're not given the opportunity to humanize ourselves, and I would be really curious to see what it would have to be like If you know, do we have to all become scientists so that we get the check of a seal of

approval? I'm claiming that even biologists are now running afoul of concepts like hate speech. Like, for example, what if you start talking about, um, a study of trans issues and you discover that Trans is a giant umbrella category where some parts of trans air disorders some parts of trans? It's just nature doing what nature is somehow, um, going to do. And somebody says, Well, wait a minute, that's that's completely illegitimate because you're you're Miss Jen Doring people. I don't think that biology is a way to hide out anymore. I think that in fact, the biologists and the pornographers are weirdly and quite unexpectedly somewhat in the same boat.

Now that we have a very potent political strain that's trying to regulate what can be said and that you guys were in somewhat of a similar boat, but that because there's no like, I mean, I would never encounter you in normal life. Probably, um, because our worlds are just very unlikely to collide

when it comes to like I I know like right now I'm working on this documentary and they're following myself as an adult actress. And they're also following, um, a researcher who studies sex. And she speaks about how she gets like death threats and things like that for being this like almost highly sexual woman, even though she's literally studying, like how vaginal secretion happens or things like that. And, um, I think that it is like we have this lack of free speech and we have this like I don't know if it's also the era of where everyone is just highly offended by everything as well. Um, I would have thought that through with social media and all these things and even like music, the way that music is kind of like even become more a hyper sexual and aggressive that our culture would be more accepting to these types of, you know, ways of life. Whereas rather than kind of see the opposite side of it, I I think that like when it comes to being able to be free with what you can do and say in sex work and researchers,

I'm not too familiar with the researchers, but I I was definitely like I I thought of this book Bunk By MARY Roach When I heard about the research study of this, the researcher in the documentary where it talked about like, I think it was like in the fifties or something like that, where they were all studying animals, having sex with animals because it was so taboo and you were like a pervert. If you watch two humans have sex, even though that's the only way to actually study people having sex and to get real information you're not gonna get. You'll get information about monkeys if you're watching monkeys have sex. But it was like, interesting to me that it was so almost pornographic for them to even be ableto watch people and study them, even though that's how we're trying to understand Biology in science.

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that the civilian world is almost hypocritical and in denial by design, that is, we aren't supposed to have an accurate picture of human sexuality. Um, because our society is based on what I call load bearing fictions that people are supposed to present is relatively a sexual. Their default assumption that they go around with is that they're not sexual beings and you're supposed to hide. Ah, this aspect. And then there are contradictory expectations. So, for example, you might be expected to wear cosmetics in a workplace environment is a sign of professionalism, but the cosmetics, in fact, maybe sexual izing. But then you're not supposed to admit that the cosmetics may in fact be sexual izing.

So in some sense, the civilian world is a mess by design. Um, because we're not supposed to see ourselves accurately, and that the world of sex workers is bizarrely a truth telling world a world in which people are far more honest and there's another one of these, which I think is the world community of evolutionary theorists. And believe me, you can invite those guys to parties either because they'll tell you things that that Thea civilian world does not want to hear. Um, what do you think about the idea? That is it possible that commercial sex workers are just much more honest and undistorted around issues of sexuality and that in fact, this is why they have to be excluded?

I would say so. I believe one time when we spoke previously, you mentioned to me I could be quoting around with the real estate effect or something like that, where it was like the woman console you potentially a not a suitable home because of her sex appeal. In what? Where she is dressed in a nice suit. Maybe there's a little cleavage showing she has the makeup done. And you as a general person, is kind of, you know, you're you're in a fate. You're in a daze because you you see this woman almost before you see the household. And I think that with adult entertainers, we kind of like are always so sexually driven and sex is everywhere. It's our whole lives. We I feel like I even personally experienced less sexual tension when I'm on set because we are always naked they are so used to seeing naked women that it's not even like it's not even a statement or a question or anything

like that. Let's dig into how bizarre your workplaces because very often I hear about sexuality in the workplace. And I think, well, what happens when you take something like modeling or going even further? Commercial sex worker on the on the set of a movie, Um, take us through what you think some of the major differences might be between your workplace and a typical

office. Oh,

I have been again. I should just tell the audience. I have asked Ashley to try to keep this as much above the neck as possible so that we can have the broadest possible audience. And so normally we might be making some jokes on having some more fun. But we're trying to keep this as classes pop.

Um, I could even just say like even the feeling in the difference of like how I'm working on this documentary right now. When I'm on set with that documentary. It is so different than when I'm typically on set, and it's hard for my brain to almost wrap around because It's very similar vibe. They're both sets. We have, like same kind of production crews and me, I I would naturally change my clothing right here in the middle of the set and all these things and not even think about. You know, the guy on the sound. He's doing his job. He's looking at the things because he doesn't care about me getting nude, because that's what he always every day there's a new girl in a guy getting nude, and when I was on the documentary, they were kind of like Oh, no,

like, go to your dressing room and change and as if and I didn't even think that I could be potentially offending them with my body and what? Not by just undressing right there, because I was like, Oh, you want me to change? So I'll just change Right now, I'm like, totally comfortable with myself, And it didn't even cross my mind that, like, Oh, maybe this guy is looking at me inappropriately, and he has like Hawaii for this or that, or they don't want any set drama or anything like that. And so for me,

it's very bizarre to pull myself out of my world that is so normal for us to just be like casually having sex. Like when the cameras aren't rolling to just maintain the energy, maintain the flow. You We want to make sure the male talent, how you know, stays erect and everything like that. And so while they're changing lights and everything like that, it's so casual for sex to be going out. It's so casual for the male to male. There's even like a lot of male to male, you know, gay jokes within each other where you know they'll they'll joke about, like, you know, teasing each other off. And like doing all these fun,

playful things. Whereas maybe in the regular work environment, you would never male to male be flirting with your, you know, co workers, even in the slightest bit, because one you don't want to become like I don't know. You don't want all that some guys air so homophobic and whatnot. But in our industry, it's so casual for everyone to kind of have this open love for one another and talk about their bodies and their sexuality. That when I was on this documentary, said it was so bizarrely uncomfortable for me as the sex worker to remove myself from being who I naturally am, which is like, just comfortable within myself, in my sexuality in my body, and and that I could be looked at as a piece of meat on their sets.

So they're like these men aren't used to seeing women like this all the time. So you have to make sure that you're not subjecting yourself in this way or making them uncomfortable or what not? And and to me, I think that, like if they were around that more, if people were just comfortable with themselves and comfortable with their bodies, and it naturally would be normal in the same, and the guy would be able to adjust the lights without staring at the girl the whole time, you know not not that these guys were, but I guess, potentially. Maybe they would, but they weren't even really given the opportunity. And and for us, I think that there's this casualty in or we're just so casual with one another. That they're the hyper sexual nous that goes on on set is just It's just another playful, casual, normal conversation

of you believing I mean, not to put words in your mouth, but I'm curious. You believe that in your workplace, bizarrely and quite unexpectedly, um, maybe issues of the harassment, tension, unwanted sexuality or actually decreased.

I personally feel that, in my experience is 100% like it's it's to me. It's close to none. I've never felt creepy vibes from a director, anything that I'm also very playful, uncomfortable with myself and jokes. And you know I'm not. I couldn't say that for every female that she doesn't feel maybe possibly offended by certain statements. But I I have never felt that there was an ah boundary that was crossed in our casual work nous with one another. I've never had any creepy director to be like offering me things that he shouldn't be or what not. It's It's always in a very playful manner, and there's always, like 10 other people in the room. So it's always like a casual joke or things like that, where we're all just, you know, naked and, you know, a pee with the door open. It's just like we all kind of dio like we're all just very

comfortable with, you know, there was a story, and I wish I could could source it because I've referenced it a few times. But years ago there was a naked musical called called Oh Calcutta! And I remember hearing a story that somebody had found that after being on stage naked in front of an audience night after night because this was a relatively successful musical, um, that the performers could not go back to normal life because they had become habituated to the excitement of being viewed by, like hundreds, if not thousands of people. And so, um, you know, one possibility is that in your world there is a permanent or semi permanent brain shift that comes from experiencing a level of arousal and familiarity that the rest of us will never, ever experience.

I would say so to some extent, but even from me personally, to some extent, I feel like even quite the opposite has happened. Where, um, now I like favor and desire more the more intimate one on one private sex life experience where it feels more emotionally involved, and I think that's also because I'm often working with people that maybe I don't know them very well. Are things like that and there is always other people around. So the level of being able to drop your guard always and completely is very rare because there is a camera involved and we're creating a product in the end. And as much as like, I can be enjoying myself. I still and put into literal positions that I can't always be enjoying myself because it's opening up for a

camera or things like that on your professional

after all. Yes, yes, exactly. And, um So I find, even for myself that it's almost took taking an opposite turn where I've now desire that lesson less on. And when I first started, that was one of my favorite things. Was the viewers the voyeur aspect of their being multiple people in the room and enjoying the fact that there is a guy with a boom stick holding it up? Who's, you know, trying to not look, but definitely obviously wants

to go. I got it. Do you see any way in which, um are the rest of are the rest of us in society moving closer towards pornography with, Let's say, self sexualization on Instagram, where you're sort of part of a mildly erotic feedback loop. If you're a young woman and you notice what and suddenly a photo you've taken has 10 times the number of like Simon,

I would say Social media has a huge part into doing and kind of almost making somewhat hyper sexualized yourself more casual. And I think, Ah, lot of it is this desire of engagement as well as like people becoming an instagram model or influencers that they sell products. I know I recently listen to like a Crystal Lee, a podcast where he was joking about. Yes,

he's amazing.

He's hilarious. We love him. And in his podcast, he's making jokes about these girls who are kind of, you know, smashing their chest together, holding a watch, and they're selling a watch. But nobody is obviously looking at the watch, and it's interesting how, you know, in every kind of advertising world and median, they use sex to sell things, and so is very normal. But now, when you're taking the regular girl was not some Vogue supermodel or it's like a Kendall Jenner where she's obviously is selling sex but not selling sex because it's perfume. Um, these other girls are kind of doing the same thing, and I think for them that they almost recognize it more so that they are selling sex because they're not getting this Vogue. Add to show that is showcasing that there with Doug.

And I think this is one of the one of the difficulties that a lot of us air having is that Traditionally we've always been self deceptive about sexuality and that the signals, I mean even biologically, just in terms of evolutionary theory, the signals that we send, um, which constitute the sort of language of sexuality, have always been cryptic. They're not sent transparently and in the clear, maybe that's more the case inside of the world Professional pornography. But in fact, being deceptive and self deceptive is what is normal. And I think one of things that has been very confusing is this passion partially on behalf of like the psychological community of professional sex educators, you know, be open, be explicit, talk about everything, and that's never been house sexuality has functioned in what you call the civilian world.

No, Sometimes I wonder if it has to do with the fact that people enjoy this taboo sense of things where it's almost like if it's unspoken than it's more enjoyable. If it's if it's kind of subliminal, it's It's almost like it's sneaking its way into yourself and and if if it is kind of like less open, then maybe they would have. They would have. If it wasn't it was direct, Then maybe they would have certain other guidelines that they would have to follow. If if this perfume commercial was obviously transparent with the fact that they are using sexuality to sell their perfume than maybe in the real world, the civilian world, they would be like, You can't do that That's inappropriate. Our Children see these commercials it's on, aired on television at regular waking hours, and I think that probably has something to do with the part of it where if it is not, if it is subliminal and it's not direct, then it could be more acceptable to the human eye.

And it could be something that where people are like, Well, no, it's it's a lingerie company that's like classy and pretty, even though it's obviously selling sexuality at the same

time. I think the issue of deniability now I mean we're talking, I should say this is the first day we've ever met. We've talked on the phone a bunch of times. Um, one of the people I've sort of pointed you towards is this evolutionary theorist Bob Trevor's and he wrote this book. I mean, it's really, you know, one of the most prominent theorists of our time. And he wrote this book called The Folly of Fools, that talks about the evolutionary basis of self deception as the precursor to being able to manipulate others. And if you think about, for example, just I had Bret Easton Ellis in the studio wrote American Psycho in less than zero. We're talking about the issue of seduction, and he said that he wants to be seduced all the time.

He doesn't want everything to be explicit. He doesn't want everything you know is a mutually agreed upon decision that in part, what is wonderful and delicious to him about life has to do with seduction, and that seduction involves manipulation. But in a world where I think many more people are colliding without a common understanding of each other, not coming from the same backgrounds, there's it is really an increased propensity for two humans. To get these signals wildly wrong is probably always been there. But maybe there's an increased ability. So weirdly, the way I see it, the civilian world has always been based on sort of self deception. And then, um, there have been both the problems that come from that and the really much more exciting aspects that come from them, that when it works,

probably there's an extra magic to it. Any thoughts on that between, Ah, like what translates to mystique? Do you see that when you're looking at your civilian friends, that there kind of saying, Well, I wonder if he likes me. I got a message. I don't know what I don't know how to interpret it.

Oh, well, like, ah, 100% when it comes to me, even just like dating, I am a very transparent, open person in these aspects of where I I don't I don't do the whole seduction game. I kind of just in the open book, and I find that a lot of times it is faulty where you know, ah, lot of people do want this type of seduction. They like these types of games or what? Not in the sense of where they feel like when you're and I think it could be, because the general public is not so honest and open with what they want, that it's almost like a shock value where they're like, Well,

this girl's just really being completely open in general with what she what she enjoys and is often something I look back around with my therapist where I'm like, Do I need to start being like the more civilian esque type of a person? Thio be, ah, more datable person. Whereas instead of being this vulnerable self where I am just constantly myself and say what I like and what I feel in these moments trade off. Yeah, it is on, um, I I often find myself incapable of catering to the general public. It's It's I don't know how to do these own kind of mind games on myself, Um, but it is interesting where I do find that most common people do enjoy this type of seduction and what now they don't want things to be so blunt in almost easy to an extent, there has to be some sort of work involved and trickery. I believe it is like a very common theme, at least even in, like my dating world. It is.

So one of the things that, um I thought was really terrific that I first heard from you, um, with some of your ideas about how to make sure that if people are considering entering the erotic arts professionally that they're making good decisions. You feel that very clearly. This has been a great decision for you. It's worked out financially. It a great level. You've been in the business for a long time, Haven't been chewed up. You're You seem to have an incredibly positive attitude. But what I was talking you about was Well, you know, how uncommon is that? You're obviously in a very unusual position. And you came up with this idea of having, like, a virtual reality simulator of what it would be like to enter the business. Can you say more about

that? Yeah. I think that there are so many people. I mean, you get to start the industry at age 18 and I think that there are so many people who don't necessarily start for the right reasons. Even when I first became in the industry. I was a very hyper sexual adolescent, And, um, when I began, the industry was mostly for money. Though I started off as an extra, I wasn't partaking in the sexual acts. I didn't really know what I was getting myself into. I had no idea the the concepts of it all and what not? And I think that now if ah, young,

male or female can get the opportunity to really grasped the sense of what can happen when you join the industry, it would be, I think, a good filter for a lot of young of the youth and whatnot. So I think would be great to have this idea of virtual reality that allows people to put themselves inside different types of scenarios. So, maybe, like one scenario is, you go in and you tell your parents that you've now joined the adult industry, and one of the reactions are that your parents are distraught. They humiliate you, the shame you they disown you. Things

of this is really common.

Yes. Yeah. I think a lot of people have parents who are racist. There are there are some parents who are like, yes, you can do porn, but not interracial porn are like weird things like that. And so they're making their Children racist by association because maybe this child wouldn't care. You know, they would love to have sex with a person of another race, but they don't want their father and mother to disown them. So by association been listening to their parental rules and guidelines, they will not partake in interracial sex on things like that. Um, so I think that this would be an interesting factor. Anything would be very interesting to put the parents in these simulations as well, for,

ah, youthful characters or maybe even older people who get in the industry. So maybe the parents could understand what it's like to be the adult entertainer and to have their parents be so harshly judging and aggressive and whatnot. Maybe your parents are in a religious state. You know, you could maybe fill out a little questionnaire and you're like my dad is Christian. So, like, how would his Christian beliefs affect us negatively and put the father in that same you know, virtual reality. And maybe you could also help change the parents to be more accepting. Um, But there also are obviously the parents who will just be terrible and un accepting. And I think there are other ways to put the future stars in the virtual reality. Whereas we had ah, one star rest in peace.

August Ames. Where is she? Yeah, she Ah, she had commit suicide. Um, from what I gather some internet bullying where she did not partake in a sex scene with a crossover star, which is a star who performs both in male to male scenes and male to female scenes. And, um, I'm sure she struggled with other mental illness issues and things like of that sort. And I think that if we were able to put thes adolescence in or these 18 year olds are these people's future stars in the industry, they would be able to get the experience of the hilly and humiliation the the tweets and the social media hate that you're going to get the ongoing, you know, struggle with dating.

Actually. How do you do it? I mean, I've seen what comes bag. It's absolutely brutal.

It is. But I recognize that when I when I think about it, when I was Ah, when I was in elementary school, kids would make fun of me because I I'm kind of like a hairy girl. I have, like, hairy arms and whatnot and hair like So they would call me Wolf Woman or Gorilla Girl, and I would just start howling like a wolf. We're like grunting around like a like a monkey, and I think that I have always was personally taken criticism and made it comical. So for me, when I see someone saying some hurtful comments, I'm always like hot. You're brilliant, like it's is amazing. It's It's so hilarious to me. So I have a different ability into translating how negative terminology and derogatory statements towards myself actually impacts

me. You literally have a tattoo in another language. I know. I don't know which one Chinese that says when life gives you lemons,

make lemonade s

O. That seems to be pretty deep.

Yeah, I've always been able to make things a more positive experience within myself, and I think that if we were able to help see which people could handle these types of experiences which who could handle the shame who could handle, you know, all of the terrible aspects that come into being an adult entertainer. Then I think it would be a better filter for, you know, allowing these experiences. And maybe they should have these experiences for the viewers who are saying the terrible nonsense so that they could understand

because I'm promised paying their influence.

Yes, like I think that listening to one of the Sam Harris podcasts he was talking about to somebody where they were talking about putting men and simulations where they get cat called or, you know, sexual suggestions thrown at them where they were now almost be able to think of like, Wow, actually, maybe I won't treat women that I don't know like this because it's actually not okay. And it made me feel uncomfortable.

What could I actually wasn't planning on doing this, but can I give you a compliment? Um, one of the things that really discourage me from going into podcasting or doing anything on YouTube is that when I started to see, um, I think the first time I was on a major YouTube podcast was Dave Rubin show, and I noticed that people stopped the video at particular places. They say What's going on at 15. 37. And, um, you may not know this, but the reason that you're sitting to my right is that I have a condition called Duane Syndrome. And so the guest always sits in that chair because my left eye is partially paralyzed and it will not go out. I did not actually have this diagnosis that I was an adult, and as a result, I very frequently appeared with some amount of cross eyed nous.

And my YouTube comments reflect, like, yes, I remember one comment was Did you see that at 18. 21 his right eye goes in to check for information, and then it comes back out because fat, where it's stored in the brain and like that was like, very playful and fun. But then some of them, and particularly the ones having to do with the moles on my face, really started to get to me and what I found. And here comes the compliment. I found, um, I have to confess. I can't really watch your really wild stuff.

But I have watched some of your discussion about your body image and you talk about being small breasted. You're very open about this and say, I don't want silicon and I know that I'm supposed to get silicon in order to earn the big money And I thought, Wow, she's just talking quite openly about this And then you didn't shave your armpits for awhile. And then you did a YouTube video about the decision not to shave your armpits and shaving them and you confounded everybody's expectations for what you're supposed to do is a big time erotic performer. And I just took so much away from that is very inspiring that you would be that courageous. And it was something that, you know, personally moved me and helped me a little bit. Um, you know, also, people don't think my hair Israel because they think it's a wig. Too old, not kidding. So, you know, that was a great image from a most unexpected corner of the world.

So thank you. Off course. Yeah. I think that, like a part of that simulation of speaking about would be about body image, because there are so many young women that I've met who like one particular particular model. I won't say her name, But she said that her heard her. She had so many fans and I don't even know what how so many are. But she had so many fans who told her that her breasts were like, uh, pointed in different directions, that she had to breast augmentations. And I could imagine that the people who complimented her greatly outweighed those who didn't. But people sit in, they think about these negative comments, and it affects them greatly to the point where they will change their body.

I've I know girls who have had complaints about their nose or their this or there that and they very openly go on their instagram and they talk about well, you guys complain about this on my body, so I fixed it on and and it's very sad to me that these people who aren't mentally strong enough put themselves out there and allow the feedback from some Joe Schmo wherever he is saying these hurtful things towards the women or men and men. And it affects them greatly to the factory where they actually will pursue action and will change their body input silicone breasts on them, which is contrary, dangerous. It could be life threatening. You put yourself under under this anesthesia, which is already a risk as well as the risk of the poisoning of the silicone. And it's really like, I know quite a few girls who got in the silicone and then have gotten it removed later. I know a girl who has gotten her her but done and then removed afterwards. And these are very extreme, life threatening surgeries to put yourself through over the simple fact of you think your audience will like you more. And to me it's obscene. Where I've no.

When I first started the industry, I had my first agent told me if I wanted to be a big star, I would have to dye my hair blonde and get a boob job. And, um, I have done neither

of s o, this is the thing just like you really are. You don't You're very disagreeable. You don't take all of the standard advice, and somehow it's been working out for you, you know, and like, let me be a little bit more forthcoming. I don't think I'm entirely comfortable with what it is that you do for a living, but I've tried to get over that because You know, you've just been such a genuine and wonderful person to talk to about all of these things. And so in part you're extremely disarming. You get people to be comfortable with the fact that they do have a sexual response to you and you get people to accept you on your own terms. And you've risen to the top without any, you know, seemingly any consequence to just being yourself. How How did you figure that out? And nobody else did in your area.

I honestly I'm not sure. I I think that's to some extent my parents had, you know, obviously a very large part of that, Um, my mother has always been, um she was never like, ah, the type of person who took her body image into consideration. My mother was like an overweight woman who kind of never really dressed a nice and I think that that kind of helped me a lot, too. And she was always proud of herself, and her confidence was always very high, and I think a huge part of my ability to just kind of accept myself for myself. It was to see that as a role model is that she still found herself to be beautiful and and loved herself, even though she may have not been the standards of beauty. And and sometimes I wonder if I would be more in my own head if I had this attractive hot mom who dressed the part and put on makeup.

And all of these things were she was not that at all. And, um and she always was very accepting into whatever we wanted to wear. And like when I went through my golf phase, she would I did have a Gothic because she supported and got me all the like, funky clothes and all these things. And when I did go through my, like, more sexually explicit phase, she was always, like, very, very open to everything that we wanted. When I wanted to start wearing like thong undergarments, she was like, Yeah, let won't go get them

for you. Do you think that you're sort of set at the factory in a more hyper sexualized

level? I do think so. I think that like, um, I was always around a lot of like sexual activity. My grew up in like a trailer with my uncles who had a lot of girlfriends. Their girlfriends were strippers, and they were drug users.

And so there's a developed. There's probably a developmental aspect is not set at the factory, but that the that environment,

yes, and and my my dad does claim to be like a sex addict and things like that. So sometimes I wonder if there is some sort of, you know, biological self something in me that is more hyper sexual than others, Onda. Because I don't think that everyone is meant to be, you know, into sex. I think that some are more than others. I think like Nikola Tesla was a virgin when he died. And that makes sense. He was studying science the whole time. So, like, I think that there are certain people who are

was also pretty

a sexual. Yeah, and to me it makes sense, like not everyone is meant to be. Ah, hyper sexual person. Like some of us should be studying the arts or sciences or, you know, hunting and gathering rather than procreating.

Okay. I mean, I think I mentioned to you that I heard a podcast with a professional colleague of years, Asa Akira and she had said. I don't think that I'm an appropriate role model for all young women. I think that I'm an appropriate role model for hyper sexual young women. And I thought that was fascinating. That hadn't occurred to me that we may be partitioned into different groups and that a hyper sexualized young woman might need an appropriate role model that is highly specific. Do you feel comfortable being that in your area?

100%? Yeah. I think that since very young age, I had always been a very hyper sexual person, and I never necessarily had, like, a role model. And and I agree I wouldn't say that I am a traditional type of role model, although I would like to be. I think at some to some extent, I I would like to think that the more average girl could admire me and look up to me for other aspects and whatnot on Dhe because I like I said, I I I have a lot of girls who know who I am from like podcasts and stuff. They have no idea of my my work or anything like that, and they just admire me for the way I speak in my opinions on things.

It's very hard for me to integrate. You know, when I've spoken to on the phone before you say, You know, it's been great talking to you but unfortunately have to get back to the set. And I have this like it's like somebody telling me I have to go fight the Battle of Stalingrad some terrible, crazy things about Dad. But, you know, I don't know. I love my work. It's just it's it's very funny to see my own discomfort and prudishness.

It is interesting. It's very It's a very bizarre thing for me even when I meet people like yourself, you know, and like other types of fans, like I've because I have these other avenues of attracting personas. I've had very young adolescents come up to me and asked me for photos for my podcast with like Logan Paul in. This is absolutely mind boggling to me and their parent will take the photo and I'm just like, do they even know and I don't know

if possible, this well, this is the thing. I think that there's a lot of it that's not personal when it comes to the trepidation it has to do with. I have no plan for how we're going to negotiate all of the issues that come up because in my world were all wildly sexually hypocritical, and that's normal. That's the way the civilian world has always been. And presumably it's likely to be that for the foreseeable future. Whereas I see you is this sort of dangerous truth telling machine experimenting with things that you know that are unimaginable Now you just went to burning Man and Burning Man is a very odd thing. Um, in in the Black Rock desert of Nevada, because for one week, somehow the normal fools are suspended. Uh, how do you find this? Sort of. I didn't find it.

I went once. I didn't find it incredibly hot. There was a lot of nakedness and there was a lot of play. But it wasn't a wildly erotic experience in my in my, uh, understanding, did you find it? Otherwise,

I also agreed to not find it as, ah, very erotic expansion. It could just be because it feels kind of dirty with all the dust everywhere. To me, just hygienically I'm not really into

very creative place like the art

is yes, it is a beautiful place, and I I think that it's just Ah ah place would be people to be able to be comfortable in their bodies. And I think that the fact that it's not hyper erotic is also why people are so comfortable with themselves, because they are able to walk around naked and look at looked at as an art piece rather than looked at as a sexual object. Where is

in an erotic art piece that isn't necessarily going to immediately lead to a sense of aroused?

Yes, exactly. They're able in that moment to embrace themselves for who they are because you'll find young, old, overweight, thin, attractive, unattractive people who are just nude running around. And everyone is just so confident in themselves. And I think it's It's such a beautiful environment and place for people to really be able to accept themselves, and it's kind of sad that that is the one place that they are able to let their guard down.

It was very interesting. I remember seeing a woman on a bicycle who had very clearly had a radical mastectomy, and she was totally topless and she didn't mean aggressively. She was having the time of her life and didn't care. And there was this sort of in a cocoon of, like acceptance and love that was clearly in the air. I don't think it's an easy thing. For now, Burning Man is this very funny thing that they refer to the civilian world as the default world. Um, and so in the default world, it's very tough to get that kind of radical acceptance It ends. Do you find that there's some sort of similarity between that deviation from the civilian world or the default world that is burning man and the porn

set? I would say 100% like AA. Lot of my friends that I work with are a lot of my friends. I get them to end up working for me. So I've got some friends who are like mainstream editors, and I somehow managed to get them to start editing my adult videos. And I have one that I ended up taking Thio burning man with me, who had such a. He recently told me how he's had such on epiphany within himself to be able to be so comfortable with his own body and comfortable with other people but other people's bodies by simply editing my videos. He's not on set. He's not partaking in any of the activities or anything like that, but because he's just been editing my videos, he's found that he's able to have a different relationship with nudity and sex and all of these things, whereas in his regular world previously to meeting me, he was more, I guess, of vanilla or follow the standards of the of the civil civilian type people where it was like no nudity.

You will never seem him naked unless you are his girlfriend or partner at the time. And now he's in a totally different place where he, he said himself, He's like by the end of burning Man, I will be walking around naked, too, and I think it it's like this of ability within himself. Where he's now, he's gotten to be able to put himself in the perspective in the shoes of us. On set, he sees he sees the delay of when, before cameras cut, he sees like you know, they start action and there's moments of us getting comfortable with each other. There's moments of us cutting and just kind of like being natural on ourselves. We're like taking a water break and everything like that. And I think that there are elements that definitely have helped people grow within themselves and be able to accept themselves as they're just natural human itself.

And so it seems to me that there is definitely something toe learn from this weird pornographic universe. On the other hand, I can't see that these lessons will ever fully translate. So, for example, um, you remember this horrible number at the Oscars? Were I forget who it was. Somebody was singing the sides. We saw your boobs and was going through. All of the actresses would appear topless. And the idea being that well, if I've seen your boobs than in some sense, I've got something on you. And I thought about John Lennon and Yoko Ono doing this album call. I think two virgins, um,

and they're appearing naked on the album, so let's get it over with. So now you've all seen us and let's now now you don't have any power over us anymore because it's it's done. Do you think that there's something like that that it's some level. There's this revelation that you have your privacy up until a certain point, and then when you've given up your privacy in exchange, somehow you get a comfort with self.

Yes, 100%. I think there was a study done that showed that women who perform an adult entertainment or as a sex worker have higher levels of confidence within themselves than the average woman. And I think 100% that there's something about putting yourself out there to be so vulnerable, kind of forces you to kind of have to not care what other people think or say. And I think that there's also as much as you get these negative statements there still there still so much glorification and that they're still so many people who are applauding you for doing what you do. Like. I look like a normal girl on average girl who's probably going to college or has some sort of basic job. And when I go to the store and not target, I'm very social person. I make small talk with anyone, and I often will like I just start conversations with, like maybe this random six year old lady and we're kind of like, you know, talking lollygagging. And she asks

me all Like, what are you,

a model? What do you d'oh! And I tell her, Well, I'm actually like one of the number one porn stars in the world, and a lot of times they look at me. They like, size me up and down and they're like, you like, you don't have big silicone boobs. You don't have all this injection in your face like you. And I'm like I explained to them

yourself pathologically

poi. Yes, I I am a lovely lady, I think. And, um, a lot of a lot of times when it's like an older woman, she will tell me how she regrets not being more exploring in her life and regrets not being able to or not have done things that were more adventurous, sexually or erotically. Or maybe like, I think one woman told me she wanted to do like nude modeling, but she never did, because her herself was a petite, small brunette woman. And, um, it was it's always so interesting to me that the positive reinforcement I get from older women who are always like wow, like I am so happy that you do that and like I wish that I would have been

I think there are a lot of postmenopausal regrets. I was, um, friendly with a woman who I take to be, maybe in her mid to late sixties, who started for some reason as I was leaving San Francisco, telling me more than she might have otherwise. And she talked about how back in the day ah, she had, uh, allowed people to eat their meals off of her naked body as a kind of performance art. And she was just having the time of her life cackling about it. And we were like laughing and making rude jokes. And I thought about the way in which maybe the part of the problem is, is that men really need women in general, in the civilian world to be much more simple in terms of their sexuality that you want to imagine your mother and your grandmother typically as somehow bringing forth life with, you know,

not multiple lovers and not ah, having much of a history, and that somehow I wonder whether it's male needs for an idealized concept of woman that make this this pressure lifelong and the post menopausal e many women to say, Well, what what did I do? I gave up so much

of myself. Yeah, I agree. I do think that a lot of men want these types of desires, and I don't know if it's biology or what it is. Sometimes I don't even think that necessarily matters. It's probably like environmental, but I know personally when I talked to a lot of guys that are my friends, they're like, I love you, I adore you But I couldn't date

you. Do you make of it? Does it make sense

to You know, it doesn't make sense to me like, and I don't know if it's because I as a woman would. I guess by all by all biologically would look for the most suitable male and would probably have multiple Children. If it was a primal world, I'd be like, Oh, he's like six feet tall and big, hunky man, and he's like a smart, lovely gentleman like I would imagine, maybe I would have these desires to have these different types of Children so it could explain my attraction to a variety of men. But I also feel like men would naturally be that way, too. But I don't know really what it is like. I think they were like, What is it? Some one of the big cats, like lions or something will kill the young of another.

You know, it's even worse than that. You get into it. Just I believe the idea is that if the head of the pride ah, changes and there's a new line at the head, not only will he kill the ah young offspring of his predecessor, but that horribly the female lions response to this is to go into estrus to become receptive and aroused by the killing of their young right. No, I mean, nature is just so it's so crazy, right? And we can't really, um, except this in part. And so my belief is is that a lot of what you're seeing is the evolutionary program that says, if if I know this person to be so arouses, not their personality,

their looks, that this that one, they've got a tremendous amount of sexual knowledge. So they're going to know exactly where I am on the totem pole of sexuality, which is terrifying. I think there's another aspect that has to do with how do I know this person isn't going to pick up and take off with somebody else? Because they've been they've had their norms adjusted. And there's another one that says, How do I know that the child, any child, will be mine? But more than anything, my guess is, how do I know that I won't be mercilessly teased? Because everyone say, Hey,

I saw your girlfriend naked. I saw her doing this. I saw her doing that. And so the assault on the male ego And you know, just to be honest about it, I think almost none of us are secure enough to deal with.

Oh yeah, I know that every guy that I've dated publicly, um, faces a large amount of sliding in the d. M Z very aggressive, you know, harassment and, uh, and I'm sure that even after our break up, they are still dealing with the harassment because we were at one time a public image together and I would see some of the comments and they are absolutely brutal and terrible, and it's even actually one of the reasons why I'm terrified to have Children, because I I think that I'm being the best mother possible by not having Children because I think that the life that they could live could be full of suffering. Whereas, ah, they will be shamed their entire life. Possibly. Where's you know,

that same statement? Where? How do you know that's a real doubt? I've seen your mom take on many partners, you know, and like all of these kinds of very hurtful, terrible things

and direct assaults on our comms are construct of masculinity. And this is why, you know, I noticed the other day that ah, Jenna Jameson, who, um, was obviously a person in its air slightly before yours at the top of the porn profession was following me and tweeting about the Jeffrey Epstein situation. And she is pretty aggressive. And you found her kid in her picture at the top of her Twitter profile. And that is a very aggressive mama bear who is not taking any shit from anybody. Um, I think you know one of the things I've you ever see. That movie, the Martian

sounds. What is that? The one

with Matt Damon.

I've heard of it. I did not actually see

okay you don't like. It's one thing to get a human to Mars, but it's much more difficult to imagine how we're going to get a human back. So maybe it's easy to go one way. I think of planet porn is like Mars that very often it is. There's a portal into something where you have a lot to learn. And that's part of the reason that, you know, I was eager to have you on the program, but it's not clear there's a return ticket.

Oh, I agree. Ah, 100%. I think that it is a very That's why one thing I was saying earlier is like is the seal of approval that I become a scientist, you know, like what? What do I have to dio to become acceptable in the public's eye? Like Do I write an amazing film, a screenplay that now is like, Wow, she's more than an

adult that Can we talk about a couple of these guys? They're fun. One thing is, I don't know. Do you know the story of Marie Curie on her second Nobel prize? Okay, so you know. Obviously, it's Polish scientist living in France. Second Nobel Prize. She's told we're gonna give you the prize, but you can't come to Stockholm to pick it up because we think that you're getting busy with a married man. Can you imagine I was gonna write a book called Radium Slut. Um, because of her work with the radioactive element radium. And we were so wrapped around the axle about her extracurricular life that we couldn't bring ourselves to let her have the pleasure of a second Nobel prize, given her behavior some other ones in this category,

which I think is kind of interesting. Obviously you must know the story of Heddy Lamar. So the spread spectrum technology that allows your phone to keep a call but to jump from frequency to frequency was apparently, um, co developed by her. Now she was an actress who was famous for appearing nude. She was like the most beautiful woman of her time early in German films. I think before she came to the U. S. Um, thing was German films not quite sure, but again, highly sexualized, female, brilliant as the day is long, um and that these examples There's another one that I would love to have on this program.

Um, can remember Name exactly. Maybe Brooke make magnetic e and her pen name. Ah was belle de jour. She was studying for a PhD and she was turning tricks as a high class call girl in the UK because the stipends weren't high enough. She loved the work. She loved her clients. She loves science. And so these are all examples of highly highly sexualized, self sexualized females who have been at a very high intellectual level. Now, one possibility is that we should de sexualized the work environment in science. However, if they're turned out to be a correlation between outsize performance and hyper sexualization and females, we wouldn't be running the experiment to be able to see whether there was any kind of a correlation. So these these air topics,

which are weirdly too hard to talk about, and my concern is is that we're not built. I mean, one of the things I've loved talking about these topics with you is is that we've managed to keep this, and I think I'm gonna take credit. I can kill the sexuality and sex so that we kept it pretty much above board above the neck and that we need to learn how to keep sex from turning sexy and conversation because it's too important. Topic not to be able to discuss. What do you think?

Oh, I agree 100%. I would like to think that you know, hypersexuality and intelligence kind of go hand in hand.

Well, I think it's a suspicion, but you can't bring that up because the other major forces that the workplace should be highly de sexualized. And because I think that there is such incredible denial and you know that there isn't a recognition of female sexuality in the workplace. There's only a sense, you know, in general of male transgression. Um, I think it's very unclear what the way forward is to figure out what is keeping women out of the science is. My personal opinion is that it has to do with Qin work, that women are taking up most of the work in caring for Children caring for elder relatives, and that the burdens of kin work are often prohibitive when it comes to a really intense career. Um, but I think we have a very difficult road ahead because I think half the brains of half the neurons in the world, right on female shoulders, that that should be a huge source of opportunity. But somehow there's a puzzle of sexuality.

I asked a different question. Because you're not. You're nodding. Are you familiar with Christina Hoff Sommers? If you're following Sam Harris, who I think is that the American Enterprise Institute, she sort of a second wave. Feminists, not 1/3 wave feminist, calls herself the factual feminist. She's called a lot of attention to the idea that the wage gap where women maybe get thought to get 75 cents for every dollar that a man gets paid for equal work. You have a very unusual situation, which is that in your workplace there is a huge wage gap. Oh, yeah, talk to me about,

um, there's not only a huge wage gap. I think that there's also like a huge maybe attention gap where on the video films, a lot of times I think they even cut the guy's head out of the frame, you know? So I think a lot of times the male is almost more objectified than the female, where he is literally just a phallic piece. He is not anything more than his Penis. And a lot of times they don't want to see the rest of his body nor hear him speak or anything like that. Um, and a lot of times, I think that they're doing almost even more of the work than the female is. And we get this this opposite end of the spectrum where I can get paid, um, for anywhere from 2500 thio, um, sometimes $10,000 for a scene that I dont see for one scene that I d'oh. Whereas the male talent can get anywhere from 500 to well, even like, less like 300 to 2000 is like the top star in the industry. And my starting Ray is already above his those big,

huge stars. You know, that's similar for modeling. If we took the top 10 supposed supermodel. I don't love the term porn star and supermodel because they get used like, but let's just step. If you take the top 10 supermodels, male and female, my understanding is that the pay scale is 10 cents on the dollar for the men relative to the females because there is this super premium. I mean in some weird way. The females are the males of the human species like peacocks, the adorned gender or sex is the males and the festoon gender. Inhumans is much more than females. And so there's this very bizarre reversal that there really is a wage gap in this one area and and it's totally favors the females. Is that fair? How should we think about this? Given that we've learned to think about it in reverse and you're in one of the few industries where totally goes the other way?

Yeah, I mean, I like to think of gender equality myself personally, so I don't find it fair in my personal opinion because, like I said, even in the sense of like showcasing the mail is not. He's almost more objectified, and they're still dealing with the same struggles that the females are dating. I'm sure like when it comes to dating, I'm sure the male struggles just as much as the female actress.

Not, but I bet it's pretty bad,

I don't know,

quite as intense.

I'm not sure. I think that it is like because women have their insecurities. So you know, you have to think of the This male is working with women who are mostly 18 years old for almost all of their scenes. And he's maybe like a 34 year old man who's looking for a woman his age. And it's, I think, hard for a lot of these more civilian like women to be confident within themselves when he's going to set, you know, working with these 18 year

old girls because I hadn't thought as much about I mean, obviously, there's a lot of dating within the industry because people are at least sensitized towards

the men dating the females female selling that. But But I do. I know a lot of the men who personally struggle

take

it back. Yeah, yeah, Sometimes I think it's worse because I think that guy's almost be more accepting than the the women. Um, but I mean, I'm not really sure, but the I I think I know more women who date out of the industry than men. I don't really know many men whose partner is not within the industry.

Let me ask you another one. You did your first transsexual sex scene recently. Um, my guess is is that you were warned that this could have negative consequences on your career. You elected to do it. Obviously, the topic eyes very hot. And you probably brought a large portion of a hetero, normative audience through something they weren't prepared to deal with. How did that go? And just keep it that way, the broadest audience possible. But just I'm curious is a political act.

Yet for the longest time, I was advised against, uh, doing a trans type of scene due to the fact that my agent suggested that a lot of my fellow peers wouldn't wanna work with me because it is like a crossover type performer. Um, they are also a more high risk performer because of the activities that they dio on. Um, I think that overall in general, my agent just kind of thought it was some sort of ah, um career suicide type of thing where it could really affect you overall within the industry. And, um, for a long time, I took his advice and didn't want to do this potential dangerous activity. And I didn't want to hurt my ability to perform with other peers and whatnot. And it wasn't until recently that I I dated a guy who asked me to quit porn. And I contemplated it for a very long time and had even,

like, a retirement date and everything in it. Yeah. Ah, he helped kind of manipulate me into feeling like I should quit and everything like that. And, um, I finally realized one day that this was not what I wanted to do. I love my job and that I would probably later on resent him if I had done so. And after our break up. It was when I really took control over my job and I realized that I want to do things that make me happy and not really for my fans. So I started to create my own content for my website. That were things that I wanted to do and ways that I wanted to portray myself and not in things there ways that I thought would make money. Ah kind of stopped caring about the money and was like, I'm gonna invest myself and my own brand and money into things that I enjoy, and hopefully it'll translate one of my things was always a fantasy of working with the trans performer, and I

think it's erotically interested. Or is it politically interesting?

Both. Okay, both. There's something amazing about a female with a Penis that is just you get both the best of both worlds to some extent. And, um, it was something that I

had a conspiracy. Have you ever been to the AFI Z Gallerie in Florence? In Italy?

No. I have not been in Europe.

Really? Okay, well, here's a little piece of homework. There's a room in this one of the most famous art museums the world called the hermaphrodite room with a new, absolutely gorgeous reclining, Um, apparently female figure. And then you walk around, and sure enough, there's this Penis. And so, you know, the the shock that were cued, um, two female indicia and then surprise that there is this actual, um,

different state. You know, this is something that people have been playing with. This is energy that's been played with for a very long time and much more conservative eras. And so I wonder whether some people like there's a community that finds a specifically very

exciting Oh, I think so I think that more people are attracted to it, don't even want to admit it or even are aware of it.

Do you think that's where some of the prejudice and bigotry comes from? His people trying to suppress that they're actually fascinated?

Yes, 100% interesting. I had a very large applauds to that, and a lot of my fans were so excited and happy to see me do this activity and keep asking for more in. That's actually because I shot it for my own website. And it's one of my most viewed scenes on my website. And I've had my website for own since, like, 2015 and, um, it outweighs and reaches numbers.

I guess

this, Yeah, I've got so many other scenes with, like, you know, Daddy play and multiple partners in one scene and, like, you know, the ancestral things and

all this stuff they

freak out. I said that when I was like

No, no, no, no. I think I'm probably not Well, I don't think I'm highly judgmental at a mental level, but I think that I'm quite comfortable with the idea that I'm not really meant to explore all of the hypocrisy is that in some sense, I think I accept that my world is a world of hypocrisy is and that that's actually structural, Which is why

I mean, you could also be facing the fact that you will get socially critique

to yourself. Well, there's that. I think I think that I'm more comfortable defending. Very well. Here's something that I I'm going to get socially critiqued for. And when we talked about it on the phone, um, that I think I feel slightly more comfortable with the, uh the shunning of Louis C. K. Was something that I thought the world probably got weirdly wrong and that the porn world was strangely silent. So my understanding was that he was requesting to disrobe and bring himself to orgasm in the presence of fully clothed females. And when I heard that and I heard that this was his desire to exert power, um, I thought, I wonder if that's true, or I wonder if this is just some sort of well known kink and it turns out that there was a category which I asked you to look into. And not only does this kink exist It seems to be a fairly large kink, and it's coupled to some other kink called female domination. How does that Hillary prance in the industry?

And we call it

from Dom fem dong. Okay, so what if we got that wrong? What if to some extent, this was a powerful guy who is actually looking to be dominated by females because that was his kink, and then we couldn't actually talk about it, Um, in terms of the complexity and because we're so judgmental and because of this sort of sense that right now the vote is to protect very powerless females from very predatory men. And we're gonna deranged all of sexuality so that that one case can be addressed because that has been a place where we haven't had good tools. Um, did we effectively just kind of cancel a human being who was actually seeking to be dominated?

I 100% think so. I I think that there's like, also trouble within the the females he was asking to be dominated by. I don't think that they probably even had the comprehension of what he was asking for. Like I'm

Sarah Silverman. Talked about sort of getting it in being down for like, I want to see

you do that. Oh, I would if he asked me. I woulda 100 of her son. It would have been like you can do right now. But I think that, you know, even when I first started performing from dawn myself

So this is something that you do?

Yeah, I do. And when I I'm such a sweet, kind, caring person When I my first

pull the mask off,

Well, it it was like a took a training for me. Like where? For my

get trained for this.

Well, it's kind of like when you throw yourself in a situation over and over and over and over again, you kind of learn how to become better and more comfortable in it. So when I remember, my first fem dawn scene was kicking a guy and having the kick him repeatedly in the whole time, I was just like, Are you OK? Like are you okay? I don't want to hurt you. I was hardly kicking him or anything. And this man flew himself out, covered his own expenses and was there for free because this was a niche in a kink that he had wanted to d'oh! And now I'm at a point to where, myself? Where I could kick a guy and not ask if he's fine or not. When when he wouldn't. He's put it in the scenario. I won't just kick any strangers.

I don't

know you better. Oh, no. But my point is is like when you're put in this scenario, I have now learned how to be a better fem dawn. And I think that the mistake that Louis made was that he was asking women who are not experienced enough Thio participate in activities that they are not mature enough

for Well, you didn't. I mean, here's the thing that blew my mind is that when I looked into this, I found that there was this acronym for what he was doing, which was clothed female, naked male. And you didn't recognize the acronym And you're in the business

now. I wasn't right, wasn't

familiar with it. So this is what what I found fascinating is that the world of kink is so varied that even if you're in the business and urinated like

you know well, on my own niche, I'm not really in the I'm more of the like girl next door niche. I am type casted. I will never play a mill for things like that, because I

I'm tight Morro Islamic Liberation

Front if you're not in my world. But I think that, you know, even for me personally, I've learned to cater my brand around the tight cast that I have. Whereas if I was maybe a more all tattooed type female, my brand would have learned to adopt Thio. Look the audience around myself. So my my audience is a specific type of brand,

I guess, you know, just to talk about trends in the industry, it's now possible, like OK, Cupid, I think, pioneered a blawg that used the data component of a dating app. In this case, OK, Cupid to try to figure out Okay, well, what patterns can we discern? Like, for example, how older people's photographs that they use for their profile relative to their age and the an average of 2.5 years lagged or something that we now have all sorts of data on people's sexual Proclivities based on their use of these websites? Because the sort of the big data opportunities. What have you guys learned about us?

Well, we've learned like there are definitely seasons of, even from the type of adult films that are consumed to the colors that the performers are wearing. So there's like algorithms that they could, you know, or data that they could track where they no like holiday time. You know around now is like October, or it'll be October in a few days. But like October 2, I think like February is the niche of incest. Porn is huge, and I think that largely has to do with the holidays or people spend a lot of time with their families.

Is incest porn actually trying to depict straight up incest, which is I find incredibly disturbing, or is it really, insisted Jason, where it's trying to depict, um, sort of step like relationships gone awry.

It's both, and in mainly depends on the particular company you're working with. And I think that's on Lee specifically because the payment processors so certain payment processing will force you to say Step mom like minimum three times. You have to kind of establish it multiple times throughout the scene. Where is our other

sort of a legal requirement where it wouldn't

if it was not. But the payment processors did not have any input than people would do straight up. It s so it's, I think, due to the pain, comfortable with me personally, not necessarily. I I don't feel comfortable saying the word Mommy or Daddy to me, It's also not erotic. It doesn't turn me on. I would rather play the baby sitter in my if you want to keep that teen spirit alive. But I, um I also don't necessarily feel comfortable playing a teen either. Like, I had one fan at one point tell me that they loved my 10 year old vagina, and it was because I didn't have a bush at the time on. And

then, well, this is this was a huge trend. Yeah, we habituated people to seeing females in a preview, best in state.

Yeah, I started growing my bush after that one statement. I was like all I needed to hear was that guy say that direct sentence And I was like, Well, this is my only way of claiming womanhood. Yeah, and because I do look like a very young at a person and I play a young person in my films. And so I don't necessarily feel comfortable constantly playing a yes preview, you know, a team, a little cleaning popper.

Well, and I think this is part of, you know, getting back to the issue of the obscenity decisions. While I usually come down on the side of free speech, I do think it's worth making the argument against which is where we are now. There was a 54 decision, one of the justices, I believe in the in the minority wrote saying that there should be no concept of obscenity was should all be covered. But because arousal takes place not in the prefrontal cortex, where we're actually doing are thinking. But it's taking place in the autonomic nervous system, which we have very little control over. We sort of only have supervisory control. Um, it makes sense at some level that there are certain ideas that you don't wish to exciting. This comes across not just in sexuality.

Like, for example, the concept of, um, fighting words is a defense, which is that if somebody riles you up and is trying to get your goat and you and you smash him in the face there might that might be a mitigating circumstance where it wouldn't simply be considered assault because the person's use of language was trying to elicit passion that would likely end in violence. And, of course, you know, crimes of passion, which does have to do with sexuality that, you know, sexual jealousy is thought to be capable of arousing this to violence. Um, is there an argument to be made that if the speech, um where the art is intended to access the parts of our brain that are most primitive and leased under control, that maybe that shouldn't be considered speech at all?

I'm not sure, because sometimes I wonder if the's type of acts are videos or whatnot are helpful to viewers like I'm not sure if it's like instead of the person going out and performing thes acts on a perk of fellow person, they're able to review it on screen and because they're

that's interesting so that maybe, maybe they could be.

It could be because we are. We are acting. We are an actress in an act after performing and weren't I am not an actual underage minor though I am most times playing one. But legally I have to pretend I'm 18 because the payment processors and whatnot in the laws.

So you were a 28 year old woman playing what you believed to be an underage person who is technically portrayed as being above the age. It's three different ages.

They're taking yes, 100%. And a lot of the times I I would like to think that it's helping people so that they're not actually like like the incest porn. It's helping people to not actually take, like, experience these activities because it would be wrong. Your guilty conscience would probably weigh on. You would be like, What did I just do? This is a terrible mistake. What don't I

know? But what am I feeling collective of some kind of sickness in our society that I don't I don't even understand. I mean, I have to say, it's quite a shock

to me. You know, something very interesting. My dad married his stepsister.

I had a girlfriend in college whose parents were stepbrother

and sister. Yeah, there he isn't she's not my mother, but it is something where I make like a joke. I'm like my whole life is a big giant porno like, and it is interesting. He met her when she was about like, 13 years old. And, you know, he was

left after puberty

after puberty.

And forget what that effect is that if you grow up with somebody, you tend not to be aroused by them in an earlier

Yes. So it is interesting to me that, like it's, it is really life where you can partake in these sexual activities, and it's not blood related, and it is technically legal because they are step and stepbrother and stepsister. But there is still for me, a personal elements where I find it unattractive. Yeah, for me at least, myself.

Um, listen, I've really enjoyed this. I have one final question, but, um, I think that if we don't figure out, you know, I have this I get a little, um, abstract. But I have a theory, which is that the invisible world is first discovered by the visible world's failure to close. That is, for example, you learn about a let's say dark matter in the universe, not because you can see it.

You can't. It doesn't have photons bouncing off of it, but it bends the light around it, and so you can see that there must be something there because all the visible stuff is behaving strangely. And in some sense, the erotic entertainment complex is like dark matter. In our society. It's this enormous influential thing. One of the things that was very strange was watching how many people literally would say, Who is who is Riley Reid and in their faces, lighting up with delight that they had. I mean, they just weren't aware that they were lying so clearly. This is shaping our society. It's affecting who we are. It's affecting our sexuality were not really able to talk about it.

I feel like I'm taking a big risk, which may be in my mind, maybe not by having you on the program. I think that for the most part, the discussion has been exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to have with you, so thank you so much for being here. But like my final question really is, what is it that the pornographic world can tell us in the civilian world about ourselves, watching all of these tensions between men and women and what would be the best way of being in dialogue If you do understand why it's so hard to mix these two worlds because of their two shifts in basic norms?

It's kind of hard for me to answer, because I've been in the industry for so long that starting in such a young age, so I don't I almost don't know what it's like to not be this world or this person. And sometimes it's hard for me to comprehend how people cannot our aren't the same or have similar mindsets and perspectives. Um, I I almost wish that every person would just be a performer for a month or two, just so that they could understand and have a more realistic idea on what happens in in our world and then take that and bring it to your world because I feel like we have so much valuable self awareness and confidence to offer that the general public is not really it's not tangible for them because they have all of these rules of society's standards that you have to follow. And I think that if people could put themselves in our shoes and could be a performer for a month, then I think that they would be able to understand the the business aspect as to where we are not thes crazy, criminal like type people. I think that it would help them understand the that sexuality is so fluid and and how love is so transparent, ble and like you are transferrable where I've personally learned how to find beauty and the chalk this and love from so money walks of earth in just any human being. Basically that I and I got that from shooting porn where I I don't know if I would be as full of love for strangers because I am forced to have intercourse, not foursome I like held at gunpoint. But I willingly volunteer myself to have intercourse on film with strangers, and it gives me the capability of really learning to love literally every person around me and I think that it's kind of taught me something really beautiful and like accepting within, you know,

my colleagues and literally all the people in the world and and I get to see how vulnerable people allow themselves to be with me when they meet me or they're fans of mine. Where's they? Wouldn't be so vulnerable in the sense of they were maybe even just speaking to you Or, you know, your editor over there. And whereas me, because I am a sex worker, they they see me in such a vulnerable states that they can also let their guard down and be

Why don't you do that? I mean, you're this absolute master disarming people by making them feel non creepy about their own sexuality, Which is something I prohibited you from doing in this interview. And, you know, you don't even need it. I mean, I have to say, I don't think my listeners even understand this. But I did the first show with Peter Thiel, which was really about innovation and growth. Verner Herzog was about high art. Um, two more Koran was about our relationship to truth. I mean, these are all big themes,

Rabbi. Well, p was God and ah, Jocko willing was war. And I don't feel like I could have picked a better interlocutor on the subject of sexuality. And now I think what I get for abusing a bizarrely and challenging Lee positive view of universal love that I was not expecting. Um I'm still not ready to accept it, but I'm certainly going to think about it, because that's a real surprise at the end. Ashley, thank you so much for coming.

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. I thought this was quite a challenge.

We were both nervous about it, but for totally different reasons.

Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate

the opportunity. Okay. You've been through the portal with Ashley Matthews. Alias, uh, Riley Reid. Thanks for joining us. And remember to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and go to our YouTube channel, subscribed there and click the bell so that you'll be updated whenever the next episode drops. Thanks for joining me. Oh.