everyone. This is still

a hefty and this is heating shot.

And in today's episode of the starship, we're gonna talk about reading and why we love books. Why we love to read you like talking about more than your sales and market. We just want a bullshit and chat about business and life, and hopefully, while we're doing that, provide long value to be the best business for people trying to get shit way. Don't want to give you feedback.

That's bullshit. You want

you to do your best and what we've learned about reading that we can share with other people. This actually this This topic was suggested to us by the one and only Ramin A See Me, who's a big part of the startup. Check who we remain. It works on the marketing side closer, but he's kind of in the background, helping us with a lot of the stuff that's going on with the startled Chet. And

yeah, you wouldn't be listening to this

without it's for sure. That is for sure, and asked him recently hit. What are some topics that we haven't talked about, that you love to hear us talk about and This is a question that we This is a request we can share with with everyone that's listening. If you have a topic that you haven't heard us talk about before, please share with us. Tweet us. Send us an email letters now. And he has said that he knows that we both share deep love for for reading. And he was like it would be very compelling to hear why. How we started getting into reading what our reading habits are today. How we think about reading, you know, in terms of how how important it is for founders. So startup startups in general. So let's talk about that a little bit.

Uh oh. Jump right in and assume. Make an assumption that you've always been an avid reader. You've always been reading a lot. Is that fair?

Yeah. I mean, since childhood, I would read. I think it depends today on your definition. Every Like how that's involved. But we'll get into that. Yeah, definitely been readings for a while. Yeah,

for sure. Was that because So we'll stay on the personal will of all more generically. Is that because you were just exposed to it? Like where You're probably right.

Ah, hyper exposed to it because my dad actually usedto, uh, and he still does sometimes but submit a lot of paper until, like, medical journals. And so he would read a lot of medical journals, and he's anesthesiologist, and he'd always be doing studies on drugs Or, you know, other things around, you know, his profession. And there was stacks of these medical journals and I would Hey, I would be remiss not to admit I've read some of them. They're kind of dry. I read the because they were sitting there like my dad has piles you still those piles and piles of I don't even know why you keep around.

He's a little bit of a border when it comes to information. And so, yeah, it's just something that was all around me. My dad would read a lot. My dad would actually write a bunch, and I got to grow up with it. So is pretty natural for me to be able to pick up a book just cause they were around, even if it was, you know, about, you know, like a kid's book. That being said, I wouldn't ever call myself a reader like like an avid reader. The way I've seen many of my friends read like,

you know, one book a week and stuff like that. That doesn't mean I don't do that, but I definitely don't do it in the way I I've heard a lot of avid readers do, which is like, Oh, this year I'm gonna read one book a week or something like that. That's never really been my attitude.

Okay, well, we'll dive into that because that's gonna be really interesting stuff in, like your reading habits. What, you know, avid reader versus not and what kind of reading. And I've observed some funny things with you that all exposed the audience. Hey, and I'll share some some of miners both, just to be fair. But I'll give my side of like how I got into a deep love of books cause I think it's a fades very opposite to your your side, so it might be compelling. Interesting.

Yeah, I

thought that's why you have U s so far. Yes, well, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for four books and for my love for reading. But I grew up in a the exact opposite way. So I had very little exposure to books. You know, we were a household where just the television would run 24 7 and it took actually two. It was 16 until I read a whole book. I got through school by basically just cheating and creative ways.

Yeah, we definitely a line on that. Even though

I was a reader, a lot cheated a lot, and I was not never interested in books until, you know, this is a story. Many times with maybe some listeners have haven't heard this before. Now summarize it. The around the right. Around the time when I was 16 I had a big argument with one of my older brothers about success in life. His point was to make a lot of money. You become academically successful, become a doctor or a lawyer, or you become a criminal kingpin, right? He was watching too many movies himself. On Die didn't like these two options. I didn't want to do it either of them.

So we were arguing for a really long time, back and forth, back and forth, until at some point he looked at me and went all right, smart ass. What's your plan for success? What are you going to do? And I have no fucking idea. Right? So I was like, I don't know. And he's like, All right, then we'll we've settled this argument. That and that was that was a pivotal moment in my life that changed the whole direction of my life because that made me realize that I was completely clueless. Like I always said,

this inner confidence that I'm going to do big things in life. But I had no confidence. I didn't know what that meant. In that moment, that argument may be realized it in a really uncomfortable way and in a way that I couldn't ignore anymore. So, like that, that argument just stayed with me. And I made me really unhappy and really unsettling way. And I try to figure out or head what is my fucking plan? What am I going to do? And, you know, be very, very basic and stupid. I had what?

The town of movies, right. So I'd seen the movie Wall Street. So I knew stocks were things that people can get rich with. But I didn't know what stocks were like I didn't know what that meant. New stocks. It seems to be something that tons of people get Ah, lot of money with and I knew books up places you can learn things. I had heard that. So I was, like, maybe any tool investigate the stock thing and learn a little bit more about it, and that led me to go to the local bookstore. It took me actually an hour to get the courage to walk in there. I'm 60 years old. I've never been into a bookstore and I don't know,

maybe somebody asked me a question. It was an uncomfortable environment. It took actual courage for me to walk in there. I walked into the corner with the you know, all the stock and business and success books and picked up the cheapest book. There wasn't actually just a za reminder. I have this on my desk. I still have the book today. This is like there's a lot of years ago. I'm not even gonna try to do the math. Met many many years ago and he was a book for, like, the translations, like $9 to something like 10 bucks. So it was written for. Somebody has 10 bucks to spare.

Went home. I was hiding it. I read it when nobody was around it. One people to make fun of me. It was, you know, everything you need to know about stocks. It was written, you know, for somebody is $9 to spare for stock books like was very, very simple. Hands understood it, and that was a magical moment. I read that book and I was like, What business? That's what Businesses,

stocks. That's what that is. Oh, my God, I was like, I literally we had an episode. We just record about teaching. And like the moment I finished the book, I was in the kitchen and I gave my mom, like on our speech about stocks and how important the way Now I can't believe that we don't own any stocks. Was trying to cook some break food for us. It was like I don't know what he's talking about, And that was such a beautiful moment of me, like not being totally unaware of something, that learning something that could lead me to some answers, that it propelled me to go back and buy another book and then another book,

and eventually I learned about business and entrepreneurship. And once I've figured out with a second, I don't need anybody's permission to start a business and create value, and I could grow it. Percy will be as much as I want it. There's no limitations that that no certification have to get no permission. I was like, All right, this is it entrepreneurship? That's gonna be my jam. So and ever since then I've been a passionate read and I've had a love relationship with books. But that's my story. That's I think books have played a really important role in kind of the journey of my life up to this point. So having said all that and having shared a little bit of our backgrounds on books, let's talk about kind of all behaviors observations. You know,

you mentioned that you might have, you know, different viewpoints on reading and what that even means. And you wouldn't classify yourself an avid reader that we'd like a book a week or something like that. What are you remit reading habits today? Are you reading a book right now? You listen to audio books. Are you reading mostly articles like What's your What is your What are your reading habits?

Yeah, just like everyone else. When physical books. For the only option, I would read a lot of physical books just like you write like That was the easiest way to read. I had a massive book show of probably hundreds of books. Just got rid of that whole book Shell and my wife. Anything is not very happy about getting rid of it, not because of getting rid of it. She loves that part, but that's acted a cost. Those books cost a lot of money, and they don't hold their value. So just got rid of literally, probably like hundreds of books a few months ago because I wasn't opening them and reading them. And, you know,

honestly, I probably only read or 10 or 20% of all like slowly, So that's my bad. Sorry, Amy, but outside of that, like these days, my habits are read a ton of content online. Unfortunately, these days I'm pretty cynical about most of the block post tirade, including my own. Oftentimes, and I already have to curate a bunch because of my newsletter, and I don't have to I choose to, but by doing that I'm only looking first content and stuff. That's great share,

especially around software. In that case, honestly, I have just hungry for information and and the morning knowledge and information I can acquire, the better, better. I feel like I could be the other people as well as myself. And I'm really into self improvement, self help and a lot of that stuff. So I'll read anything I could get my hands on it and a lot of its online. Usually I'm doing a lot of Google searches to find the best content on something. So I would say that Google helps me read a ton. And in terms of like books, I just love audiobooks because I could do him at two or three x speed and get through them faster. But also I'm able to comprehend it that way. Plus,

I've learned that I'm not necessarily trained on speed reading, although I am pretty fast at reading. But I am much more attuned towards listening on listening, you know, hearing the audio really at a high speed, and I am able to grasp it and consume it. Ah and So for me, it's like that. I know a lot of other folks like to read physical books or read and take notes with it and all that, and I do some of that. But for me, reading is just its knowledge, its creativity. It's, ah, it feeds my brain. And so I enjoy it for that reason, and I try to get as much of it

is classic. I love it. I'll I'll talk a little bit about my reading habits, but before I do that, I'll share a little story with the audience. There's another book that is on my desk right now, the teeth and salt Once when he walked into our office, it's like a really big book. It's designed really well. It talks about a subject that typically has a very different form factor. This looks like an architectural book, although talks about sales and it peaked. Eaton's interest immediately and heating looks at it and goes, Oh, this is interesting, like, yeah,

I'm breeding. This is really well done. And as we're chatting, heating is like just going through the pages and scanning through the information, slowing down, looking at some of the numbers going through the pages that are really fast paced, and we're chit chatting about this and that. What's gonna be the episode today, and you can see how it's like slowing down it, certain parts speeding up in other parts and eventually he's closing the book and I'm like, If you wanna take it and reading, you can have it And just like What do you mean already? Read it Eyes one of my This is one of my favorite many favorite moments repeating this like What do you mean already read this book? It's great. I'm gonna be recommending it so, so much for,

like, speed reading speed of reading. But I think that's an important thing, and we're not. We might not get into all the details and depths of it, but there's many waste to read, and I think that's something many people don't really. I may have a hard time understanding that,

Yeah, I mean business books. If you've read a lot of business books, which I know both of us have, it's called skin Marie. It's like what am I missing about this topic that this book shares? What's the quality of this book and What can I get out of it? Right. In my case, reading that book, I just love the form factor, The reason it was on your shelf for on your desk or whatever. And And I was like, OK, cool. Let me just absorb this and understand it if it's any good. So that was more reading for judgment.

Right of like, Is this a Is this a worthy book on this topic? Because most of the sales looks out. There are Ah, you know, I've read a ton of them. Are either really old school and fundamental knowledge that I think is really important or really new school and layered on and just not really timeless, just very timely, right? And this book happened to be a good in between. So I skim read It is what I would call that. And the whole point was just to get put a judgment on it and not have to absorb it, because, honestly, for me, reading a sales book is not something

I would normally do. I but I. But I think that's an important an important point because I think that most people are conditioned to X to experience reading in a very sequential way, right? You started the first sentence and you were arrested at the last sentence. And unless they go through a book like they go through that I see people even like there's an emotional response that makes them go. No, that's not right. This is the only way they feel like they've read a book, right? First word, Yeah, so, yeah, if you give them, they've got to get it all in. Hit all it.

If it's like chapters that I clearly like, they already know that with it, it's not worth it or you just painful. But they just like I have to suffer through this. I have to go where the last word. Many people that love reading have learned have been conditioned to read a certain way, and that's all they know. And that's what they need to feel like. They've read the book,

right? And for me there is content. I really, really want that way, right, Like today. I was in another podcast this morning, a friend of mine's and you wanted to book suggestions, and one of the books is the art of war, which is not I'm Sorry, Not the Art of War. The War of Art Woman's by Stephen Press Field I think you and I have talked about it. Maybe at least once. Um, and it's a book that really on blocks. Creativity. I've read that book like 10 times.

I'll read all of it when I read it. It's really short, and it really is motivating for me, but and reading for me means audio. But But, like I wouldn't skip it, and it's because it's short. It's pithy and it's great. And it's a book I love to read all of, and I've read many times, while there's other books like this other one, I suggest on the podcast called Good Strategy. Bad Strategy, which, honestly, I've read it all once and then Now when I need it,

I'll go pick up a chapter or pick up a certain area of it and then I'll go through it for me. Like if reading is just reading, that's not the important piece of this. It's actually what am I going to do with it? What do I need it right now? Um, am I gonna learn what I want to learn from it and And this is all the category, obviously. Ah, improving myself, improving my business, learning something I want toe learn about. It's not the category of reading for fun, right? So I do want to be clear about that. There is a concept of reading for fun that I've heard about. I don't think you do it that much, but like there is that concept.

Uh, yeah, I was saying I was the same way. I've never read books for entertainment or for fun, because I always, you know, used other channels for that. But I have. In the past two years, I have tried to broaden my spectrum, read some more stuff, especially some like old sci fi classics and other literature, just to expend my rising. And I do it occasionally. But it's still not my number one medium for entertainment. Small for like knowledge. But But um,

s O. I want to come back to this. There's many different ways to consume information and even consumed books, and it's even funny. Sometimes I'll ask somebody. Have you read that book and they'll go? I haven't read the book, but I've listened to the audio version, so it's like If I listen to the audio book, it's not like I've read the book. It's not the same thing. It's funny. I think we as people are funny with our habits, but for me, I do it all in the way that I do read. I do read some physical books,

although that is much more rare these days than it used to be. But once a wide like I like to switch the form factor. So I'll read a physical, especially to data read as many business books as I used to. But when I do read a business book, oftentimes I enjoyed the physical version more so than the Kindle version, because I will skim, read, all read to specific chapters, or I'll use some speed reading techniques. I've learned I have, how I'll go through the book in a very tactical like, What is it that at what is the core thing here? What is the type of information really want and need? And I'll just, you know,

take stuff out of it and a physical book. I lost me to do that in a really nice way where Kindle Kindle version might be a bit harder but I do read physical books. I do have an insane amount of books on my Kindle. I don't have that many physical books anymore. I used to have a big kind of library, and we used to have it even in, Ah, you know, last office with a big office space last time with a big office visit. My library was kind of in there, look, kind of cool, a big part of the library. But I donated that one to a school, so I don't know a few 100 books about, like,

entrepreneurship and startups and this and that and the other, and we gave that to a school. I think it right with City, so I don't have many books anywhere anymore physically, but I do read them occasionally. I do have tons of books on Kindle. I do listen to a lot of audiobooks, so and the same same thing twice. The speed probably go through one or two books a month on audio alone and maybe a book, a month on the Kindle and physical burden. So I do consume a lot a lot of the information, but it's when it when it is like business related marketing related SAS related, started related to data. Read as much of that as I used to. And when I do as I said, it's more I'll get the physical version.

I'll skim through it and then I gift it to somebody, right? I got the information I needed from it, and I'll give it to somebody that needs it, wants it. But the books that I take more time in reading it's just topics that I'm getting interested in that have nothing to do with startups usually. So, just as we've discussed many times, martial arts have become a kind of a hobby and a passion of mine. So I have like I'm reading. I'm turning through an insane amount of just books about martial arts just because it's an interesting topic. It has nothing to do with my day today. I find it creatively stimulating and interesting, and that typically the way I'll go about reading is that there's these topics that a stumble into that I'm getting really interested in, and they'll consume as much information as I can. It's not just books is usually always,

I think, similar to you books in conjunction with a lot of stuff online. Like I watch a lot of interviews and videos are re block, post, fall certain people on social media that are experts in the field and consume information on them and get simulation what to read next. I'll just consume an incredible amount of information, usually very condensed periods of times about certain topics. Yeah, that's pretty much How do it ends for the very same reason I love to grow. I love to learn. I love to be stimulated and often sometimes it's very tactical. I'll read something to fix a problem or read. Something can put into practice immediately. But many times, you know, I find I find learning.

Reading helps me in many, many ways in life, in non direct and linear waste. It sounds like I read this book, and now I can do this better. It's, you know, I read a 1,000,000 books about this thing about this, this topic, and now both have more information to share about it when when needed. But also my learn. My thinking has sharpened in certain ways about certain topics. Why I'm able to think creatively about something lime, a random discussion. I'll have some information. I'll have a creative new strategy that will come up with it.

And I think that all that is cumulative, the result off, you know, lifetime of reading a lifetime of learning and sharing and trying to grows a human. So that's why that's why did and for us to finish my point on that note before we do the tips. I think we're getting close to the tip section for us is a business or as a team. There's a few books that, well, we gift to every you personally joins the team as kind of, ah, on on boarding ceremony and one of those books, which is gonna be my Booker accommodation one. My only book room in a recommendation for this podcast is the Papal Wars. I think I mentioned this book before. I've definitely mentioned it at many other podcast interviews I've done. I'm not sure if I mentioned this on the subject,

but the paperwork is an excellent book that I would recommend to everybody to read. The reason why we give this to every new person that joins the team is that well for number of reasons. One. It's a very entertaining book. It's very nice to read. It's easy read. It's not that big. So kind of a nice, easy, entertaining fund read is a little bit of like Silicon Valley history kind of describes people that it's most crucial, pivotal moments and how it survived to hide, thriving all that. That's cool. But the main reason why we give it to people is that it's the only book I know I'm aware of, written about a kind of a very significant startup company in a very trouble and time written from not the perspective of the founder, CEO or the investors,

or some author that is a professional writer but written from the perspective of an early, very junior employees. What kind of stumbled into it and stumbled into very important positions and actually played a pivotal role. But when he joined, it was like employing 100 or something, and there was nobody knew that that Peter Thiel had hired him and there was no place for him to work in the work for him to do. And he had to kind of like go through the trouble mints of being an employee in a start up and I think that that perspective is underrepresented in a lot of like entrepreneurship books. And we think it helps kind of new people joining the team, giving them some perspective on how that journey can be for somebody else. So that's that's a book that some other books that will give to people. But we do. We do share a love of reading in the company, and we at the Hello will give people a book that we hope will both entertainment but actually helped them in their journey with closer

love. That I love that book. A big fan of the book. And, yeah, it's a really great book to give team members, you know, early on right away, pretty much I'm going to do the same. It's good about that book. That book is good. Books is good. That's excellent for that perspective. Cool. I'm gonna go with my tip. Yep. My tip is,

if you want to read more Writebol. Mm. It'll just force you don't want to read more. That's what I've seen happen. And you get in the habit and ah, yeah, Well, I think we might have talked about writing here and there, but that's the not the opposite, but that's the compliment to reading. So if you want to read, can't get yourself to read to start writing. At least then you can read your own writing right

like that. If you want to get better at writing, you're gonna reading. It can be a big important we have doing so. And we've recorded an episode about the importance of writing that you can find on the sort of shed as well. All right, so my tip, I'll leave the tip that I'm not even sure I'm a big fan of, But I think it's important, or it can be very useful to people. I remember once reading it, reading somewhere somebody was saying, Well, the first thing you should do, instead of just reading lots of books, is read a few books on how to become a better reader and a faster reader, and I remember I was very young,

but I remember thinking that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'm not how I'm not gonna buy books to read about how to read that stupid, but is it? Turns out it's not that bad of an advice. 00 I'll re share it, and a lot of our discussion was around this. Ask yourself What are my habits of reading? What are maybe some of the habits that are serving me well or not so well? And maybe it's time to pick up, not even a book. You can just go on Google in search speed reading on, you know, skim reading or waste to read more Enjoyably, your read faster. I mean, just over the next few days,

read 34 articles about how different people read or what kind of techniques. There are different approaches to reading. There are just why, in your perspective, maybe, you know you'll experiment with one or two of them and broad your experience about the way you read and how you experience that versus just staying with the way you've been taught when you were a little child. So that's my tip. Learn more about reading. Love it, right,