Well, good news for you is my Mike is like, all set up. And I know how to use a external Mike right now. Very well, because that's my whole life.

It is everybody's life. I don't feel like everybody is becoming an expert.

My whole set up is like It's like usually when our podcast from you, like, takes like, 15 minutes to get all set and everything. And I'm like, Nope. Got it all already to sink the audio on GarageBand. Everything's good.

Um, my friend Ah Polk Facets runs rogue amoeba software. They dio he's been on the show before. Uh, they do, ah, audio hijack sound source. They do, you know, a whole bunch of things, but largely audio related. And so obviously there's a lot of interest in their software. People are recording audio from calls and stuff. Anyway, there was a tweet today. I forget who sent it, but there is a screenshot of Oprah doing some kind of thing with face time.

And she had audio hijack running on her Mac, which was exciting for them. It's Oprah, right? It's Oprah, you know, But it's so funny because she's just like us, right She's just got a Mac. She's running face time, and she's got her Mac propped up with, like, three or four books to get the Webcam up at a reasonable height. And it's like over that she's a billionaire. She's Oprah and she's just like us. She's using both. Like us. She's using books.

What, what a good good spread for them to do in People magazine this week. The stars, Or is that people are Is it us weekly that do like those stars? They're just like us, and they, they all like, are holding their iPhones up with random things around their house. And they are like using lamps, tow light themselves. And they are, I don't know, constructing random things in their house to make their

tech work right. It's, you know, And you know what? It's funny, like the books thing, it seems like, Wow, you're Oprah. You should be able to have, like, a proper laptop stand or something. But books air sort of the best for that because everybody who's smart has lots of books. Books are very stable right there, perfectly flat, and because you have if you just have like one shelf full of books to choose from. If you choose the right number of books,

it's it's actually very, very adjustable. Like if you decide. Ah, this is so close, but I really wish it was like 1/2 an inch higher. You could just find either, like, 1/2 inch thick book or get, you know, swap one book out for one that's slightly thicker to move it up.

Books bought it. What, a technology book.

You cannot do that with a Kindle book.

No, and actually, books do work. I've been using some books for my laptop, but they do not work well for iPhone or iPad. If you don't have the right amount of books because I find that leak, either it just falls. And if you have no case on your iPhone or iPad, it can. It either falls forward or back. I did a video about this couple weeks ago how to make a homemade stand for your iPad because I was putting my iPad on all these random things and it kept falling backwards, and I wanted to go order an iPad stand from Amazon. And, of course, they were back ordered forever. Finally got him in this week. But, um no. A wire hanger and a cardboard box. Great stands for your iPad.

So you did. You had a column

on this? I haven't say call. I did a quick video about

this quick video. Now, this is for an iPad

for yet? Works for an iPhone notes.

So I did see that. I did see that. You know, when you made one out of Lego too, right?

Yes. Yes, that was I mean, that was my son. My project, my son. And then it falls every time we did it. We did it. The call this morning. He had a doctor's appointment on facetime. Then the Legos just completely fell down. Um, so yeah, I would actually, this all means to say, just buy a nice iPad stand. Well, it's funny,

though, because ipads they have better what we know right into the show. I mean, but this plays into your, um, Mac book air video from last week. So it's it's It's a question. What device do you use for doing? Ah, call. Because you are a Mac is most flexible, right? And it's got, you know, just stacking on some books It's not top heavy Max once you haven't on a pile of books. If you are any laptop, right?

Any regular laptop, Mac PC, whatever. It's not gonna fall over because the screen is very lightweight and the base with keyboard is very heavy. So you put some books or anything to prop it up, and then you can tilt the screen just the way you want it. There you go, but terrible cameras, iPads, great cameras, but they're very top heavy kind.

And my big things. When I was doing that video on the iPad stands, I was recording a lot of like video using the front facing camera from the iPad, and I guess I'd always realize this. But video calling with your iPad vertically is not as good as video calling horizontally, but the camera then gets put on the horizontal side because the the camera's located at the top of the screen. If the top of the screen is vertical, I

me, I I do, and I ran into the exact same problem where I was on a a group Zoom, uh, happy hour last week with a bunch of friends, just a Let's just you know, Just talk to friends and I got complaints because my video was vertical because I was using my iPad vertically and they're like everybody else's horizontal. You got you there driving a sense, John, you gotta go horizontal. But then when I went horizontal my now my cameras off to the left, I guess you could flip it around the other way and make it on right. But either way, it's not centered,

right? And you're looking because you're used to video calling on a laptop. You're looking smack in the middle of the laptop. I mean, as much as I've always give this advice, like, I've written this work from home column every day for our newsletter and and like, feel like every day I'm like, Look into the camera, look into the camera. But like, it's so hard to look into the camera when you're video chatting, You wanna look at the screen, which makes sense, right? You're looking at the person, but with the iPad, you end up trying to look at the center of the screen. But actually that cameras off to the right. So just looks super weird

to the viewer. Yeah, on the left, and we're all getting used to this. And it's kind of it in that way that we're collectively all the good people on the planet are all pulling with each other, and we're all forgiving of it. And where everybody's having business calls and, you know, we're all that guy. Remember that guy on the BBC and his little girl who's over in Taiwan or something in his little girl came barging into the room. Uh ah, you're to a guess. It was the best. And they became worldwide celebrities because the girl was adorable and she had this nice little march when she came in. But we're all that now, right? Dogs,

air coming in and kids air coming in and all sorts of crazy stuff. You know, You know, you could be in the middle of a very important meeting with your colleagues remotely. And if the doorbell rings and you think it might be a shipment of toilet paper, everybody agrees. Go, go Answer the door. You cannot. You cannot miss the possibility of receiving some TP. Everybody gets it. You know, we're all in this together, but I do think that as forgiving as we all can be of makeshift offices and, um, you know,

PC's and Webcams that people haven't been used to using in a professional context because they just haven't needed him. It's weird when you're not making eye contact with the camera because you look like you're like, What are you doing reading? You know, some of you reading like a Web browser over on the side of you, not pay. You could be paying complete attention to the meeting, but if your eyes are off to the side, it makes you look like you're reading your phone or something.

Yeah, and I think like before we were in this period, we kind of took video chatting for granted, which is weird for me to say, because we do it all the time with my parents and, you know, my son with his grandparent's. But like when I was doing a video call with work people, it was always a sort of like OK, like it's often the side. I'm not paying attention to it. But now I'm so desperate for human interaction and face to face human interaction, and this is the only way I'm communicating with colleagues that like I'm actually paying attention to it. So you're like, hypercritical of what you're seeing and you're you want to make the experience better. But there's like you're saying there's like you're not really sure what other people are doing. Your got the quality in the middle of this all like the actual Web clan quality,

that the design of these devices And then, of course, like the big one being these services, the Internet services, which you know are hit or miss on terms of a lot of things. I know you've been covering some of the zoom issues, so it's sort of all the mess really means great, like one hand, like it's great. It's amazing that we have these tools and we can do it. On the other hand, it's like this whole stuff has been a mess, and just like no one's really been paying attention to it.

Yeah, you know, I keep thinking about the fact that there's no Josh Topolsky had a column a week ago over at the input is new, his new thing, and I just I thought it was such a nice sentiment. Just thank God for the Internet, I think was actually the headline of the column and you know in a nutshell, it's true. As awful as the whole situation is, it is so much more bearable, and so many of us are. And I realized I again, you know, with with all it's really said, I know that there are 1,000,000 million's and million's tens of millions, hundreds of millions, I guess,

of people who have jobs. They can't be done remotely, and it's a huge economic problem. But for those of us who can, it's it's terrific that we can, but it's entirely enabled over the Internet and then at a social level, the fact that we're still able to do anything other than, you know, simple phone calls. And we can actually do things like see faces and share screens and stuff, um, and just keep ourselves from going insane and doing something other than watching TV all day, which is where we would have been 30 years ago. Yeah, it's unbelievable,

no, and like that. So I said, like it's a mess, but it's like we're not gonna complain about a lot of this and that I feel like everything I've been writing has been like somewhat complaining, but also like, Well, I wouldn't have noticed this before. You know, That's how I sort of did this angle with the webcam on my on. That on the air review is like, This is something we just didn't think about before. No, Maybe we thought about it, but it wasn't number one on the thing to consider about evaluating a laptop being the webcam.

Yeah. You know, we might as well start with it, but, um,

let's start the show. Is this not gonna go?

So I'm starting. I started. Yeah, I'm fully into it. This is

the show. This is the show. Um, I think we should now just tell people we did not officially start the show. It just called John and just started talking like this. Which is what I always assume his show is exactly. Oh, you also you were like, I'm off today. I'm not working today. Technically, quit when I'm gonna in my life. When I say I'm not working, I'm off like I'm It's pretty much I'm always working. But you were like, Why would you want to spend the day with me? I'm like, this is not work for me.

Well, that's very kind of you to say, Joanna. Yeah, I do. I I don't know. I mean, I know that you you have, you know, the full full, uh, institutional organization of the Wall Street Journal toe work within. And so there is more of a structure I have to say on an ordinary basis. In normal times, the way I work, the fact that I don't really have colleagues, I can lose track of what day it is.

Um, it in the midst of this, it is absolutely nuts. How frequently I completely forget what day of the week it is. Same I am. You said yesterday you thought yesterday was Friday. Number one. It did. It did occur to me. You mentioned this on chat yesterday that you thought yesterday was Friday. Now, this was like, uh, like, eight or nine oclock at night, which does make me think that therefore, you you must have thought you blew off our show because you said we were gonna do I didn't call you out on it.

I was like, Oh, I should check in with him about when we should do the show. That was like, but I thought it was supposed to be today, so I might have missed it, but oh, well, I mean then that you didn't remind

me. No,

I went to a show. If if I had missed it, you didn't remind

me to do it. No, I did not check in. Ah, Tuesday. It was like, I don't know, I worked till, like, I took a break for dinner and and stuff, But then I went back to work, and I think I wasn't really done working on stuff for daring fireball until around midnight on I'm a night out. And this whole situation has only exacerbated. You know, the fact that it doesn't really matter what time of day I do anything, but I didn't get done until I don't midnight or so wanted to watch some TV with Amy. And she's gotten,

you know, she's shifted way from waking up early to sleeping in a bit and staying up later. So wasn't stretching it too much. I was 100% convinced it was Monday. It was Tuesday at midnight, you know? So it was two days into the week, and she was I forget how it came up she was like, No, today's Tuesday and I was like, Oh, I really had no idea. I honestly I was so convinced of it. I actually looked at my phone and was like, She's really right,

Yeah, for me, like I work pretty much all the time, even when this isn't happening. Um, you know, I feel like I've had to really, like, just come to tell myself and agree with myself like I love to work. I love what I do. And so either I'm thinking of ideas usually or writing something or in producing a video, or like I'm always thinking about the next thing I'm working on. I also do some management stuff at the Journal with our video team, so I'm usually like juggling a 1,000,000 projects at the same time. But like I go to the office now and I've gone to the I've been going to the office. There was a point in my life when I started at the Journal where I would go like maybe two or three times a week, I wouldn't go.

But then I took out of like a management role in the video department. A couple years ago, and I had to be there every day. And so I really got into this pattern of I would go even if I work super late hours, some days there don't come home, told Midnight and take a car home or something like that. That delineation, just like going to a place, makes a huge difference to May, even if mentally I'm always working or I'm working like going to that place gives me that structure. Now I have none of that, and I truly, like, just feel like my life is like on hold, like I don't know when, where and when things were happening.

It is really it is bizarre how it screws with your sense of time where ah, and at both ways, like and it's a it's a mean everybody's in it together. Everybody agrees that March 2020 felt like it was around 300 days long.

Yeah, I couldn't believe I even looked at my stuff. I was like, Wow, I did a lot of work like that. Months started with me reviewing the galaxy s 20. I was like what? That phone came out this month or it was even like a like I guess it came out at the very end of February. But what, like that feel that truly feels to me like a year ago.

It feels like I feel like the iPad pro and Mac book air announcement was a while ago, you know? And even that was in the early days of the shelter in place stuff because it was a remote, you know, presentation from Apple and everything had to be shipped. There was no. Hey, you know, we didn't meet with anybody. Face to face was like that feels like forever ago. And I

mean, I think that was three weeks

ago. It was three weeks, uh, anyway, well, but very timely. I mean, and obviously you were going to review the Mac book air. I mean, this is really right in every single way, and we can talk about We'll talk about the Mac book air itself, but right, aligned with your interests, right, aligned with your advocacy on the keyboard issue and everything like that. But your video that accompanied it was specifically on the issue of hay. Ah, the webcam on this thing stinks. And it's sort of an emblematic problem on laptops. in general.

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, I really I And also, like, just I realized a blind spot in my reviewing, like I had never I went back and I searched for Webcam on like my other reviews. I, like, really had never mentioned it, but, you know, like, you know, it would have only been a line something like, Why does this thing stuck or something like that? Or it's still only 7 20 p or something.

Um, but yeah, it's it's really quite bad. And then again, the reason I noticed that was I was starting to have been trying to do a video a week, still tryto keep keep up with my video fun. And, um, I just started realizing, like, Wow, like, why would I ever shoot anything here with this Webcam? And that got me on this path of looking at other laptops and it was funny, actually had to run to the office to go get some other laptops to compare to, because I was like,

I can't just do this piece about Apple because it's not just Apple. Like I when I started looking at the specs was like not just apple. It's Microsoft is doing this, Del, They're all using sort of low resolution webcams. At least low resolution for today. So I ran to my office. I got approval to enter the building at war. My glad my gloves. My mask obviously risked my life to do this review for everybody. Okay, so what I'm saying And, um, I got all the, you know, my office.

I've got a ton of stuff. So I grab on my laptops and said, You know what? I'm gonna grab this old pro that I had here. This old Mac book pro I had here and that was to me like it was okay, I'm just see if it still works because I have all my old laptops. They're my 10 year old Mac book pro. When I compared the quality, it was shocking to me that in some conditions is actually better than the new air.

I thought that was one of the most fascinating parts of the review because it totally jibed with my gut feeling of. You know, as much as we gripe about these Webcam quality issues right now, doesn't it seem like they have actually gotten worse? And then in the back of my head. I think that's just one of those things that you think. And if you actually looked at a 10 year old camp webcam on a Mac book, you'd be shocked. But the truth is, especially in lower light situations. It was it wasn't just a little bit better. It was a lot better.

Yeah, it was a lot better in the low light test. And I mean, even when I looked at it didn't really come through that well in the video just because of compression and all of that stuff. But even, like just this very grainy the 7 20 p camera on the air. Um, and even though you're getting better ruse resolution, when you look at the quality next to each other, it's just it's very grainy. And in some shots that Mac book pro looked like there were parts of my face that looked crisper like, just like looking around the glasses or my hair. I was just like, that is not pixelated. Um, so seven.

20 p is pretty. That's pretty bad. Just on specs. That's that's outdated, right? But I would say that the bigger problem and it's easy and I kind of feel like in a lot of reviews. That's just sort of how we've we collectively in the reviewer industry have sort of been brushing this issue at its at the end of the reviews. And you, you know, if the review format for your publication as pros and cons, everybody remembers in the cons to stick in 7 20 p Webcam isn't that great or kind of stinks or whatever you want to say. Um, and yet just on this back alone, 7 20 p, that's that's really low rez. But the bigger issue. I would take a 7 20 p camera if it had better lighting characteristics.

It's and the thing I run into two so low light Anytime after sun is the sun is down, it's really, really bad. And we've been spoiled at this. You mentioned this and you compared the footage. We've got these phones in our pockets with us all the time, and u turn to pick the phone up and pointed at your face and exact same lighting. And

it gets amazing.

It gets a reasonable, you know, And then when you compared to the webcam, it's amazing. Um, but the other problems that I've seen, as I've done a lot more, even without colleagues, I've done a lot more video chats in the last few weeks. I just had a meeting, you know, before we recorded today with somebody for a product. Emma, um, middle of the day and it's actually kind of nice lighting. It's a little overcast here in Philly. It's probably the same in New York,

but you know, which makes for good lighting. And my desk in my home office is right next to a window. But the windows on this side right? I'm not staring at the window. It's on my side. And with the Mac book Pro Webcam, it's either half of my face. The one on the window is completely blown out, or it gets a good Ah, a good uh, What's the word? Not white balance, but, uh, just general,

Uh, yeah. Just gets a good balance on the light side of my face by the window, and then the other side of my face looks like, you know, like in a film noir and, you know, it's just completely black. You can only see half my face. It just it does

not have a very phantom

of the opera. Yeah, it just doesn't have the range. It just doesn't have the range to get both half lit half shadow. Whereas every, you know, ipad or iPhone or any other modern phone is going to do a pretty good job in that sort of situation. You don't really think about it when you're using your phone as a selfie camp. You don't really think about the fact that the light is on half your face. You just, you know, just look at it. Look pretty good. Take a picture,

right? Yeah. I mean, I think the big questions like, what happens now like, Well, they I mean, I think they I think most laptop manufacturers will probably address this now, given that you've been using them so much and people are really, really I mean, the verge had a piece yesterday which Neil and I have been texting about last week as well, which was kind of pegged to this, Which was that the logic cameras were sold out everywhere the price gouged everywhere, like it. Neil, I tweeted. He paid like 90 year.

It was like over $100 for $90 camera or something like that. Um, I had a family friend texting being like, What are you talking about? These air not sold out that I'm gonna buy this on on Amazon. Like you're gonna buy a three hunt, You're gonna spend $300 for a $72 camera. Um and so I think like laptop makers were going toe Look, to address this, the question I think and you racist in the post is how much of it has to do with the physics and the mechanics of the system and the amount of the area that they can squeeze these cameras into plus price. Like, how much is that gonna jack up some of the prices on some of this?

Yeah, and I think that the physical space issue is it's too easy to overlook if you're just being casual about it. But if you really look at how thin like the new Mac book air lid is and it gets tapered up at the top, so it's even thinner. And compare that to just how thick your your iPhone or your iPad is, and combine it with the fact that without doing a little mini lesson here on the optical physics of cameras. It It is not a coincidence that every single phone from every single manufacturer now has a camera bump of some sort. We don't even talk about camera bumps anymore because it's just accepted that the camera housing is going to stick out now. The front facing cameras don't have bumps, Um, but even so, the actual physical depth of the device from the front surface to as far away that the sensor can be is significantly. I know that, you know, compared to standalone camera cameras, it's they're all crazy thin, but it really does make a difference how thin laptop lids are. Um, so I guess the big my you know, I don't think anybody wants the entire lid of their Their laptop to those thick is a tablet. But could we go with a bump

that and and I was also thinking, and another piece I wrote this week about Face I D. It's made me think. Well, at least Windows has has had facial recognition for a while on laptops, but apples never gone that route. Um, and what could face i d on a laptop bring that they haven't been able to bring with the fingerprint sensor.

Yeah, and, you know, and I wonder how much again, how much of that is cost? It's got to be a somewhat of a factor. And how much of it is that? It that the face I d stuff needs, um, you know, Zied Zied Z depth. You know, Z access depth to go deeper. I don't know, but Ah,

when you were saying that I thought you meant like like Z depth.

I was putting

on a front. Jackson. Yeah, like the if they want to see you.

But, uh uh, there's no good solution. Uh, I will say that it's, you know, and I've been using ever since this track pad thing came out I have been doing I I'm kind of addicted to it. And all of a sudden without, I've only I've already Yeah, for the iPad have already, um, you know, written my ipad pro review. There wasn't really much to review. Its kind of a minor, really a speed bump update. Um,

but with this track pad support, I'm doing a lot more work in my kitchen just to sort of not be locked in my home office all day, every day during this thing. And rather than lug a Mac book around, I'm just using my iPad in the kitchen and my Mac and my desk in my office. Um, but it emphasizes for me like when I'm working on my iPad like this, sort of like a laptop. I've got the the iPad sideways, and it just feels like the camera should be at the top when the iPad is horizontal,

right? So then the question would be Would they have to put two cameras in there, or were they just move the camera? If we start? If we move to a pro situation where we're using it in much more horizontal situations, like you're saying, does it make sense just to move it there?

Yeah, and then does it suddenly run into the issue of that? All the people who hold it in the vertical orientation now their thumb is going to be holding it all the time when they're holding it up, I don't know. There's there's no, like the upside of especially tablets compared to phones. I feel like we rotate them a lot more. Yes, phones ever since. The iPhone can rotate sideways, but for the most part, I mean, and now there's this whole quit be Ah, yeah, but people, you know, shoot lots of people.

Just people are so used to holding their phones vertically that they even shoot their video. That way they there, you know it. Most people wouldn't even notice other than when they go toe watch. Ah, horizontal video. That's the only time. Or I guess, to play a game. For the most part, people don't turn phone sideways tablets, they turn all the time. And now that I've got this track pad support, I'm turning my iPad sideways, Turn it the other way, Turn it the other way.

I'm going back and forth all the time. And so there is no answer to where should the camera go? They've got to make you know, I don't think they're going to double up. You know, it would increase the cost to some factor, and it seems needlessly du duplicate to put two entirely different camera systems. And they're just so that there's always one in the center, but it sticks out the more you user your iPad in horizontal orientation.

Do use face idea on your

iPad. Yeah, I love it.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like I don't use it as much, but, um, yeah, I think I've just gotten into the habit of passwords on the iPad. I have not spent a lot of time with the new pro. I mean, I have it here. Haven't sitting next to a side of my bed. I've been using it at night, but yeah, tear point. I've been using it far more with that keyboard, dock and horizontal.

Then I have vertically, but I'm very excited. You know, when I get the magic. Isn't the magic keyboards that with,

Unfortunately, they're They're just calling it the Magic keyboard, which is the exact same name as the standalone, just plain Bluetooth keyboard. It's a very It's a very apple like thing to just call it a magic keyboard. Not the matter people covered at the Magic keyboard case. It's just called the Magic Keyboard. I'm sort of calling it the magic keyboard covered just to keep it clear in my head. But it's not not the official name.

Yeah, so I think when I get that, I mean that just imagine I'm gonna be using it. I don't have 90% of the time horizontally.

Yeah, me too. Ah, and it's funny because the new the cases that are out the smart keyboard case, the one that doesn't have a track pad and just has the fabric covered keyboard for the first time. They put an apple logo on the back of the cover, and the apple logo is oriented such that the apple logo looks correct when it's in the the horizontal laptop configuration. So if you're holding it more like a book and fold the cover around, well, you cover up the apple logo by covering, you know, by folding it around. So I guess that's one reason to do it. But I kind of feel like they were resistant to put Apple logos on those smart covers in the first place because they didn't want it to look quote unquote wrong half the time.

Yeah, I've actually never noticed that.

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We're talking zero to euro now to my mom near a network. Do

you have a window open or something?

Now, why is that? You hear

something? Yeah. Here's something like a little white noise.

It's my laptop. Is it really? Yeah. So we can talk about this. We can talk about why my this Mac book pro makes that sound. Yeah, let's talk about it. Yeah. I mean, this was part of my This is a couple of lines in the MacBook Air review. Um, but I have just been finding that chrome is I mean, we've known this for a long time, but chrome and the amount of stuff I do in chrome and apparently I have some sort of chrome extension that runs in the background that uses an insane amount of CPU and memory. And so my laptop just constantly sounds like it's being it's going to take off for outer space or something.

I know.

I mean, I could move the laptop across the room, but I'm probed in with the mic to the laptop.

Uh, just let

it go. You know what I could do? I could close chrome. That would be the biggest sacrifice of my life I could make for

you. Do you need it while we talk?

Um, how else will I check my email during your out spots? Check it on your phone. I'm closing Chrome for you. I've done it. This is the This is the biggest sacrifice someone could make in life for you, John. And I bet you it's going to go away soon

are our mutual friend Walt Mossberg had a tweet a week or two ago, something I I guess I could look it up, but basically he was just saying something to the effective. Hey, if you use chrome, you don't Okay, but except that it's going to use a lot more CPU Resource is and hog your battery and make your fan. Come on and you should think about switching. And if you're on a Mac, you could switch the safari. You could switch to Firefox if you're looking for something other than safari. Um, there's a lot of other option. You know, there are other options out there and you know that's it. It's just a different set of and, you know,

people love chrome. Chrome has some features that other browsers just don't have. They have that extension ecosystem, and I hear it all the time. Whenever I bring it up, I always get responses from people who are like, You know, I'd like toe leave chrome, because I understand. I see what it does to the battery or something like that, but they'll say, and the but often involves. But there's like these two extensions that I just can't live without. and they're not available for other browsers. And that's the trade off. You know, it's like so much of technology is like, what we do is writing about tradeoffs.

Yep, yep. And I've I've felt the same when? And I have to hand it to the safari team any time I write about why I can't go to safari and I, like, give, like, a couple of reasons why I don't want to say they do it for me. I'm sure they do it for a lot of people, but they end up solving a lot of those problems. For me, One of the last holdout issues that I was having was the favorite cons I like. It was one of the things about Crume that was just like I could instantly know what app or what website I was on with the favorite cons and they built that into safari. Was like, OK, I'm gonna switch over to safari that finally got it. Like I think it was like maybe two wwc Zago. They announced that, um I think it was

I forget the timing on that. I had a little

little effort. Catalina, I think you may be we talked about me. I'm sure I am. No one can take sole credit for it, but probably you could, um And so I was like, I'm gonna switch over and then I switch over and I do so much in Google. Google docks with Gmail with Dr. It just works better and chrome. And so I like say, OK, I'm going to just keep chrome open for those things. But then managing to browsers is like a ridiculous thing where you don't know which one. And, you know, you need to set it to fall because then you're clicking from one after another and your three different browsers or two different browsers.

And so I do I need to just be able to say, You know what? I'm just gonna use safari, and I will maybe just use something like Firefox or something like that is an all toe chrome for certain things. But, um, it's a big move. It's like a life changing

move for anybody who doesn't know the back story fabric. Khan's favorite cons. I don't pronounce it but favor concert the little site icons. So you go to the Wall Street journal dot com. There's a little icon with the Wall Street Journal logo. You go to Daring Fireball. There's a little daring fireball logo in the U. R L Bar and in most browsers, every browser except safari. When you open tabs, it's the little icon that represents the site and its in the tab. And then the more tabs you open in a window, the smaller each tab gets. Which means that last text of the name of the tab can show and the the icons become the only way to really identify which tab is which. And insanely to me, Safari had no option, not even an option to show these icons until, like a year

and 1/2 ago. Maybe

it was two years ago

at this point trying toe look.

But I complained about it, and I got some feedback from people on this safari team. Were like, You know what? You know this has been at, and you know we're aware of this. This has been a battle inside. I have you know, I don't know the inside story of who, but apparently, you know, obviously it wasn't like Apple wasn't aware of the issue. There's there is some either a person or a small cater of people within Apple who did not want support for these icons in safari because they thought it would look bad. Toe have all these random icons and colors in breaking up the beauty of safaris, monochrome appearance. And that's partially why you know how, like when you do a pinned tab I never use.

I don't like the pin tab feature, but I know some people love it. But Safari implemented its own standard for pin tabs, where they use literally enforce a monochromatic icon so that the icon is just a black and white image. And then, I guess, the color and gray. So it's just a shape, not color. And I think that that was a concession to the same people who didn't want the fabric cons in the regular tabs because they didn't. They thought the color ran. You know, any random sites, colors like Oh, my God, you're at CNN now. You've got this red iconic clashes with the beauty of this, you know, other tabs icon, which is crazy,

right? I mean, fascinating. I never I never knew this Well added the story. I mean, I guess that makes sense.

I may not be expressing the our argument against fabric cons Well, because it doesn't make any sense to me. But basically the they thought it was ugly, I guess, and they couldn't and and that somebody had the political clout to keep the feature from being added and me publicly writing about it, I think you complain. I mean, we certainly aren't the only two tech pundits who were complaining about it, but I really kind of went all in on

it. And I remember this now. Yeah,

and I guess the thing that I found out and that I was told would be very influential was that I shared the number of people who either listen to my show or read my site. Who wrote to me and said, in all sincerity I would switch to safari except for the no icons and tabs thing like so it wasn't even down to extensions or other factors that might keep them on chrome or Firefox or something. It was literally I have 20 tabs open at a time. I can't tell what they are without icon, so I can't switch this safari. And that apparently was a compelling argument that kind of broke the logjam within Apple and was like, Look, we're actually our refusal to put icons in the tabs is actually keeping people from using safari, and

they're like, OK, but even every I mean, I'm looking at your PC. Read it in August 2017

right? And so I am. I think that it happened. I forget when it happened. Boy, that feels like a long time ago. Gets 2000

aiming to be fair yesterday feels like three years.

So So I forget when they actually fixed it. Um,

it's like about two years ago. I wasn't It was before Catalina. So I

want to say, like the summer of 2018.

Yes, because I I remember them announcing it. A WBC and me like wanting to clap.

Yes, I wanted, like, storm the stage.

But here's the funny thing is that they did embrace it, but only to a degree. This is still something you have to go turn on

exactly. It's still off by default.

And you and so like, when I was setting up this new Mac, I was like, Oh, again with the favor cons again and I was like, I like, go to Google How to turn it on And it's like, Okay, it's super easy. You just goto preferences and tabs and turn it on. But why

do I have to do that right? It still seems again. It's it's that there still is that contingent within. I don't know who the people are, honestly, if and I realize normal people don't change the defaults, the default preferences for any sort of software are so important because so few people think to change. And they shouldn't, right? That's just, you know, that that's the whole point of personal technology is that this stuff should work, just work out of the box to the best degree as possible. I still think I don't want a complaint because they did add the feature, but I will complain. I don't want to do it, but I have to do it that I still make the default should be that they're on.

I mean, it has to be that any reasonable person who uses you know, more than one tab at a time. I would like to have the icons in the taps. It just seems crazy.

I'm totally with you on that. But if I complain and then I'm like, Well, if they do this that I'll switch from chrome, I'd be lying.

Chrome lets you really get tiny tiny tabs, too. I mean, it's it's an interesting ah user interface, debate and study. And if I were teaching like a course on user interface design, I would love to do like, ah, whole segment of the class. Just let's just think about how tabs work in a browser and compare the implementations from a couple of popular browsers because it's a very specific feature. If you don't really think about it, you might think I they're all mostly the same there. These you know, their tabs. You can close them, you can move him around. You can drag him out to windows.

But there's some really interesting differences in there, and one of the I think a really big difference is that chrome will keep shrinking the tabs to the size of a Nikon practically before it does something else to you know, more or less. Make the tab bar a scroll herbal region, whereas safari on, you know, I'm talking about the Mac heared on desktop But the iPad version of Safari is a lot like the tabs are a lot like the Mac version, like, obviously on the phone there different because there they're not really tabs at all. On the phone there, the's browser windows that sort of scroll up and down. You know, let's leave the phone aside for now. The minimum width of a tab in safari is I'm going to say here maybe about an inch and 1/2 something, you know, like physically,

it's, you know, it's definitely more than an inch. Um, whereas chrome will let you shrink it down to just like 1/4 of an inch where it's really just a little thing with the the icon

right where it's just the favor. Gone right? And by the way I looked it up, they they enabled this in safari 12. In 2018. Uh, what? It was two years ago.

Yeah. Tabs. Safari 12. There we go. Thank you. Safari team.

Yeah. Yeah, and we don't mean we were thankful. We don't mean to complain, but we also could keep complaining.

Ah, All right. So I guess we should go back to the Mac book Air your review of the Mac book air I thought it was It was I was waiting for it. I was waiting for your review to see what you'd have to say. I suspected you would like the keyboard, but basically, you know, your conclusion was you know, not to put words in your mouth, but this is the laptop. If you're going to get a Mac laptop, this is the one most people should buy.

Yeah, even though I'm not buying it, which is which goes back to this chrome thing, by the way. So and I had a couple of lines in there, but, um, I realized through writing this piece that I'm actually more of a pro user now than I ever waas doing a lot of heavy video work. And, um, I have a use chrome, and that is another thing. And I find that, like, I'm just even on this 16 inch pro, sometimes tapping out the CPU and memory with the amount of things I'm doing in Chrome. Um,

but between audio video and sometimes I've got photo shop open, I've got Premier Open, I've got a bunch of stuff and I just like it's It was too much for the air, even though I love that machine. And it was also, you know, again, like, kind of the circumstances of reviewing it right now. Like, I just want this kind of desktop replacement laptop in my life right now because I'm not commuting. I have not even seen my backpack now for I don't know it. Weeks, I miss my backpack. I miss so many things about my old life. Um,

but so it might be a little bit of that like, but I'm I am holding out for this 14 inch. You know, the 13 inch replacement model. Um, I think that's gonna be the like, the Goldilocks for May, like, just just right?

I think so. For me to Ah, um I I still love. I'm using it right now. I still love my 2014 2015 13 inch MacBook Pro. I really do love No. 2014. I always forget. This is like the third time on my podcast where I forgot just how old this'll back. Book pro is its mid 2014. So it's almost six years old. At this point, it's like 5.5 years old still is a fantastic little machine. I love the size. Um, and the air for me is the same way, and it's even just using even using safari.

I can't even complain about chrome. But if you are like me and don't close, I don't really close tabs. I just If I feel like my window has gotten too crowded with tabs, my way of declaring tab bankruptcy isn't too close. Everything or clean it up. I just make a new window, start piling, leaves

the tabs in the background.

Yeah, more until, you know, maybe, like, maybe like once every two weeks, Then I'll go. And you know, actually, I got it. Figured I got to do something here because my you know, when safari makes your fan go on, then you know, you know, perhaps, um, but I I don't really clean it up until

then. You know, it's also sometimes do you find that you get that alert sometimes. Where if you're used Gmail, right? Or

Google mail? Uh, yeah, but I don't use it through the Gmail interface. For the most part, I usually use it through the mail interface, so I don't really helping and the other trick I have is for privacy reasons. And four, it just seems to work better. I more or less used chrome. I don't use chrome for regular browsing, but I use chrome for anything Google related other than YouTube. So YouTube. But you know you can't avoid just using. But I keep, um, But if I actually want to use the Gmail Web interface for Gmail, I actually fire up chrome and and it automatically reopens all my Gmail accounts into tabs and chrome, and I just go through it there,

right? But that, yes, that's the nightmare of trying to do that and balance that cause Then, if you're clicking into things from crow from chrome and in your Gmail, then you're getting kicked back to chrome. You're not going back to safari. That's what I've been trying to manage the two browsers for well for weeks or months or whatever. And it just it's sort of a nightmare. You've got to commit to one. Um, yeah, I mean, I love the air. I think it's a great system. I heard from many readers who were super excited to finally be able to get rid of their old air and and who were waiting and waiting and waiting because they had read all about the keyboard situation and said, No way,

No way. And so they finally felt really good. And I felt really confident saying, Finally, you can get this machine. But yet for me, um, I'm actually still stuck with my old air for my for my actual computer, though I've been using the 16 inch MacBook pro loner on and off because I really wanted to test the keyboard over time.

Yeah, same here. That's why I'm still using the 16 inch Review unit. Um, I find that the keyboard. I thought this was interesting and I don't know again. It seems like the sort of thing. Or maybe it's the placebo effect, and I'm feeling what I wanna feel. But I feel like it's if anything, it's

gotten better over time. Yeah, I said that, too.

Yeah, I don't think it's just my imagination. Uh, it just feels like unlike the Butterfly key, which tends to get stuck over time, it feels like the new scissors. Which one? You know, it just sort of breaks. It wears in, but it's not like they've got the keys have gotten wobbly in any way. They're they're not wobbly there. It just feels it just feels like a very, very nice keyboard to type to type

on which, see, as I said in my review, I said, It feels like this is broken and versus broken

right example. Man, you're a good writer. That's

a good line. That one just came to me, and I just felt like I had toe. I had to do a live reading right here, right now for it, but, um, yeah, I I feel the same way. Like the 16 inch just feels I love writing on it. I got for some reason I'm just like I can, and it's not. For some reason, it's I will use my other air for some of my other work stuff because it has all my programs on the Knicks and stuff like expenses or whatever. I just kind of always go back to it. But if I'm writing, I've written the last like I don't know. Last six months, five months of columns scripts have worked on this long video project all all been on the 16 and chair.

I think you know, and it's funny.

16 inch

Mac book right there. Well, it's the only 16 inch products, so I knew what you were talking about. It's it seems like so long ago on I mentioned is all the time, but I can't help but do it when I go to. Well, when I used to go to a coffee shop or I'd be going through an airport or walking like I money, I'm on an airplane that I'm traveling somewhere and I have to go to the restroom and I walk back. I just look at what people are using, and I always, you know, just see, um, it's Apple. You know, it's one of those things Apple is secretive about for competitive reasons.

They don't break down the model numbers and say, You know, 67% of our Mac books were Mac book airs, and 33% were Mac book pros, and the Mac book pros were split this way between the big one. And this moment they don't tell you. They just say they don't even tell you. Mac books. They just didn't even break down portables for stuff stops anymore. They just say we sold four million max last quarter. And that's it, Um, but eyeballing it when you were used to be able to go out and see other people and what they're using it, I just feel like Apple did tell us when. When the new Mac book Air came out those three very long weeks ago, they did tell us that it was their most popular Mac,

Um, but I feel like even that is underselling by what degree the Mac book Air is the most popular Mac. It's just anecdotally. It just feels like that is what people think of when they think of a Mac. If you're gonna buy a Mac, people just they don't even look at anything else. They know they don't want to spend the extra money on a Mac book pro. They know they want a portable, for the most part, you know. And if you don't, if you really do want a desktop, you can get the I Mac and it's great Machine, and I'm sure that you know it's not like they sell No, I Max, But for the most part,

most people want a laptop man. If they want a laptop, they want the air, and it's so easy toe eyeball it because of the teardrop shape, right? You know, you don't have to, like, get real close and creep on somebody. It's a very distinctive profile, and you can see it. And it's It's been for something that's so popular and so essential to so many people's lives. It has been such a very strange transition to go from the old pre retina Mac book airs when they were recommendable like, you know, 567 years

ago. I mean, I spent half my career recommending

that right? And it's just been a very strange transition. And I don't think that the 2018 Mac Book airs were bad and especially when they when they did the, um, in Terram third Generation Butterflies Switch update, which, you know again to give you credit, I think was largely inspired internally. But by the I. I called it last year, the column of the year. I still think it's going to go down. It should probably get credit is the Personal Technology column of the decade.

I appreciate that. The that's the award. I don't know if they probably didn't submit it for any awards at the Journal. But this is the award that matters the most to me, John. So thank you. Can you send me a Gruber Gruber award? A thing? You should do that. Semi a Gruber. It's It's Ah three d three d printed bust of you.

Ah, would it be a premier? Would it be Justus? Like a sphere with a star on it?

Oh, yeah. That could be they could be your favorite con. Sure. Um, maybe it's the size of a favorite

con. Oh, yeah. It's tiny. You could fit so you can lose it. Yeah, it's like the size

of those A little tiny pin. It could be a nearing type. Ins for men, Earrings for women or men if

you wear your ring. Yeah, like a little like a jelly bean.

Yeah. You have such dedicated listeners. I bet you people after they listen to this, ask for that.

Ah, So I do. You know, especially after the Post. Joanna's, uh, you know, what was the headline? What was that? I was

I mean, it is missing letters, Apple stores and fix your back but keyboard

or something like that, right? And, you know, the online version. You know you not to reiterate the holding, but you got the development team at the wall Street journal dot com to write some javascript software so that people could adjust the sliders. And by default, all the ease were missing and half the S is or something. And then you could if you really couldn't even read it, you could adjust it with sliders and get the missing letters back in.

Um, yeah, it was a

bad key. It wasn't a bad Mac book air. And once they went retina and yeah, it was a little too expensive. And yet the keyboard wasn't great even with the third generation thing. But it was all right. And you could say, Well, if you really need a new Mac book air, you can get this one. You know, you it wasn't like you could you would un recommend it. But now it just feels like Boy, you can really recommend this to everybody because they've gotten back down to the 9 99 starting price. And it's a good config. The 9 99 Mac Book Air is a pretty good laptop for an awful lot of

people. there's for 2 56 starting now on storage. It's great. It's a great deal. It is. It really is. Um And, you know, I wonder what some of the motivation was for Apple to drop the price back and to drop that storage back. Was it, you know, a little bit of Well, we know this is the thing that sells the most that we wanted. Juice that. And we want to get more people. These in the hands of more people. They even did that education deal,

right? It's 8 99 for education. Um, was it also like we know those last one We kind of messed up, So maybe we make it. This is my just thought is a little bit like if someone's gonna buy a new computer because they hate that keyboard. Well, maybe is a little bit easier for them to buy this if we drop this price a little bit. I highly doubt that was any motivation. But I in my mind, like to think they were thinking at or something.

Yeah. And, you know, and with the keyboard, it seems anecdotally that once they got to that final generation of the butterfly switch keyboard. They did fix the reliability issues, or at least for them. You know, to the point where it really does seem looking at my email from people who read the site. And, you know, I'm sure you did, too after you emphasized it so many times you got a lot of readers match. It really does seem like the final generation of the butterfly switch thing was as good as that fundamental design was going to get. And they fix. And, you know,

the reliability issues were a above and beyond anything else. Because you, if you it just seems mind boggling that you couldn't rely on your keyboard on these devices. They fixed that, but it's still it just didn't feel great. It didn't sound good. You and you've written about the san ever since they first came out, like with the 12 inch Mac book that didn't sound it just

and they fixed that here, too. They really did in when the 16 inch came out and did a sound comparison and comparing sounds of keyboards. And I mean, this is so much quieter and it's so much more satisfying to listen to Yeah, yeah, I mean, it will be It will be interesting, I think, to see where they go from here. Because I've always had this obsession with the air. It was I was It sort of was, Ah, the highlight of my career at the verge, where I would tell people, you know, this is the best Windows computer,

And I sort of became known in a mean way for say, you know, for well, for $200 more, you can always get the Mac book air. And honestly, if you ask me to this date what I think is the best apple gadget, I will say the MacBook Air because it I just don't think there was ever a laptop at a time, you know, especially it was 2000 probably around 2014 ish timeframe that there was just no better mix of portability and performance and endurance than the MacBook air. And it sort of is like this thing you hold up your like, this is the best computer there is. It's probably not gonna get much better, right? At least had set that for many years. And so now we're at this point where I keep thinking about like What's next?

I've always thought about, like, what? What's next for the air? And I thought it was really interesting that they announced the air and the pro the same day and the pro with the keyboard with the magic keyboard and for me, it kind of I was gonna do my review, sort of comparing the two and thinking about like, What do you buy? Which one? And it really mostly just came down. It was like, You know, people still want to buy an air. They want to buy an air. If people want to buy an iPad, they're probably looking at the pro, but I do really well put the two side by side and wonder to myself, These two have to converge at some point because it just there's so many overlapping use cases for them.

It's It is a very strange um, strategy. I don't think they have to, like, I feel like at the highest level. It feels like they have to converge because they're so similar and they even like you said they even you know in it just to products that they announced at the same time, and they're both. You know, if you look at the 12.9 inch iPad Pro, it's effectively a 13 inch screen. I mean, it's 12.9 inches. It's 1/10 of an inch difference diagonally, and they've the big selling point for the iPad announcement was this magic keyboard accessory that turns it. You know we don't have it in our hands yet, but it's it's the one thing it is. What made writing the iPad review so hard is that the one thing everybody wanted to hear about and the thing I most wanted to play with is the thing that's not coming out until quote unquote may, Um, and

that's actually why I didn't write the review or do the comparison right now.

And it turns the iPad into a laptop. I mean, you know, and they keep saying they can, you know that it's a touch first platform, and it it doesn't take away from touch at all. But it's a laptop, right? It is, and they even mentioned that it is in plain English. The magnetic attachment is secure enough, and the way that it's weighted is secure enough that they, they emphasized. When we talk to them that you can use it on your lap. You can sit, you know, on a on a train when wherever we're allowed to ride on weapons again and put it on your lap.

And you could, you know, they released commercials and they showed people, you know, sitting in a park and just sitting on the, you know, like sitting on the grass with the or on their bed or something like that, with it in laptop configuration on their lap. Um, And so you think, Well, how can you have two different platforms that are the same fundamental form factor? But then when you really look at the details, I don't know, I don't see the convergence. I really don't. I I don't see the Mac platform converging with iPad OS in any way.

Yeah, I think like I've thought about my use cases and I use such specialized APs for certain things were said, Okay, that that I couldn't go to the iPad. And if I if I just needed to do writer work, I could use the air, and then maybe I could have a desktop at home or something. You know, I've odd computing needs, obviously. But for most people using the air and we, the people we recommend the air to, what do they do with it?

Email the web? Social media right,

And And why, then why not the iPad for

those things? I don't know. Uh, you know, it's it is a very strange situation to be in, and it and it I don't know if I've if I accept it through cognitive dissonance or or what? Like I, I'm willing to accept it because I don't think either one either platforms should get a whole lot more like the other. Like I know I've been more critical this year in my writing about iPad OS and the multitasking interface, Um, in particular, um, and the knee jerk response to that from people who really love multitasking on the iPad and have, you know, put their their professional life much more or entirely on in some cases. And I believe you. I believe these people who spend,

you know, use their iPad is their main work computer. Um, and the knee jerk response to my criticism is is to assume that what I'm saying is that I want the iPad OS to get more like Mac OS and do things the Mac OS way at the interface level. And that's I don't think I ever wrote that. If I did, I didn't mean to that. That was bad writing, and it's not what I mean. But I I do think that the iPad OS, for me at least has to be able to do things. Doesn't have to do it the way the Mac does it, but I want to be able to get it. I want to be able to do it the same way. It's going to get it done right. And I don't want to get confused about things that I find confusing on iPad OS multitasking.

It doesn't have to be done, and I think it would be wrong. I will go so far as to say it would be wrong. Two copied the Mac way of doing things. What I would like is for Apple to come up with a way that's better, then the Mac way of doing it like, wouldn't that be so terribly exciting if there was a way of multitasking interface that that was better than the Mac way of doing things and arranging things. Um, and conversely, I'd certainly don't think I feel even stronger the other way that I don't think that Mac Os should get more like iPad OS in terms of the way. Um, I mean, it just doesn't even make any sense to me that that you would want t get rid of windows overlapping windows that you can resize to any degree on the Mac. Um, so I just don't see how they converge further. And I know that some people are going to want to immediately say,

Well, what about catalysts? Catalysts? The whole point is convergence where you can take your iPad APs and use the catalyst frameworks in the latest version of Mac OS. And now you can have one app that is adjusted. You know, the developers can do work, and now you've got this app that is the iPad app, and now it's a Mac app at the same time. But that's still it's not really convergence, and the the catalyst APS that do it the best are the most different between the iPad and the Mac versions, and the developers have to do the most work. And if it's working out. Well, ideally, it's still Ah, lot less work and a lot more familiar to the developer than doing a wholly separate Mac app on iPad app. But it still is not just click a check box in X Code and outcomes a Mac app, and it's worked, looks and works in the way Mac users expect a Mac app toe work.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, maybe converge is the wrong word. Maybe replace

right. Right. And that more and more people, if they're looking to spend somewhere between 1000 and $1200 on an apple device that you can use as a laptop,

then they buy an iPad pro

right? And get the, you know, the magic keyboard for what? I do it. And it is, You know, if you're going to have just 1 $1100 to stay $1100 or so, I guess No, I guess, Yeah. Yeah, Well, it somewhere in that range

if you get the pro that the 12.9 with the magic keyboard, I think you're at

14. Yeah. And if you get the 11 it's

smaller than a drop. I will drop

over time. Yeah, hopefully and I would think so. It's certainly the the IPAD portion should write drop over time. But, um, it's certainly more more flexible device because you can do things with it. You know, the the two and one form factor where you can use it as a laptop when you're doing laptop e things and you want to have a track pad for things that are great with a track pad, um, it and then that you can just you don't have to really disconnect cables or anything. You just unm admit magnetically snap it from the thing. And now you've got, like, any book reader, and you can just sit there on your couch and lean back and you don't have to worry about the keyboard and just sit there and flip through, You know, a book or Web pages or whatever you do, you know? Yeah, the thing most people have done with an iPad for most of the time.

Yeah, it's like the ultimate flexibility, and I think that's maybe that also be, you know, the driving force of people. Just so you know, I don't need all that. I just need a plain old laptop and then they'll still get the air, and maybe they just keep him around forever and ever until, at least until we are out of house arrest,

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the show. Um, you're gonna need your audio editor to edit out my stomach rumbling legit. Believe that it's probably being picked up on my eating like schedule. So out of sorts, a made Mozza pizza with my son at like, 11 o'clock. And now I'm starving.

I have I tend to be a as as a In addition, my regular night owl sleeping schedule. I tend to eat most of my calories later in the day, but at same. But this whole thing has thrown me off and I will go. I realize I make weight. Have I eaten in like 16 hours. Maybe that's why I'm hungry,

right? I mean, that's probably like I didn't eat breakfast. I had something to eat at 11. And I'm like, OK, it's time for lunch or dinner or Hlynur, Whatever.

What? We just eat at any time that is, There is there is no time.

There's no time. We're certainly not running out of food is the other thing, which is a great thing. But we just have these constant, like insta Carter fresh direct deliveries that were just trying not to lose spots.

Yeah, yeah, Same here. Have you seen this thing? Ah, this is again. I think most people have elevated there humaneness. You know, people are there's people have written about it that that people are saying hello to each other more when you're out or, you know, you just you smile. You're like there's just this collective sense that we're all in it together. And people are being nice to each other to the best that we can while maintaining our social distancing. And, uh and then when you find out that there are people who are taking advantage of the situation, like what the hell is wrong with you. I just read this story last night about, um, people who are who are offering Biggins to cart tips.

Oh, yeah, I saw this.

And then after that stuff gets dropped off at their door, you can Apparently I Amy handles the insert card stuff, but apparently you can, like, revoke the tip afterwards, and then they just take us, take the whole thing away. If you are a garbage person, that Yeah, I mean, you might as well that that that's like walking. You're you're just stealing money from somebody that's like like, if you are well, remember, remember, restaurants, remember,

It's like if you like, pay your check and your like, get up from the table and you're walking out and you see that there's another some other table had left, you know, a cash tip and you just pick it off the table as you walk off the as you leave the restaurant.

That's no unless your insta cart delivery person punched you in the face, right, came to the door, you know, took out your bottle of seltzer and smacked you in the face with it. That's the only reason to revoke your your tip right now it

is, you know, and I mentioned before, like thank God for the Internet. How would we be doing this 30 years ago or 25 years ago? Or even, you know, with the Internet? But before some of these surfaces like insta cart is, you know, in these delivery services are helping us collectively maintain social distancing like I really do. I I want these people to be paid appropriately. I want them to be tipped well, and I know there have been, you know, some walkouts and stuff, and and the labor issues are serious,

and I really hope they get worked out so that the people who are willing to do this work are getting compensated appropriately. But I think like collectively, it is good for us that if one person can do the shopping for 10 15 20 other people in the course of a day, that's better because there are fewer people out circulating and maintaining the distance. I don't know what we would do. I mean, I guess we would all be going to the grocery store like we on a usual schedule, and it just seems so contrary to, um, you know, toe what we're supposed to be doing collectively toe to to help flatten the curve.

Yeah, we would all be going and we would. Wouldn't they already have you certain times for certain types of people, for people above a certain age or if you're pregnant? I mean, I would assume some of those restrictions would be even worse because this has allowed, I mean, at least in in major metropolitan areas like we live, it's really allowed people toe decrease the amount of traffic, or it's been it's allowed these stores to decrease the amount of traffic.

Yeah, we haven't been. I haven't, I think is a week or two. I have, actually, I'm actually forgetting If it was, it's if it's a full week at this point or two weeks, I think it's a full week or nobody here. We haven't done any shopping outside the house

yet. For me, it's that long to I, um I do go to my local coffee shops still cause they have take out and it's just sort of ah, window, and it's easy to dio Um, and I feel like I'm supporting them, but I haven't been toe. I mean, I went to target about a week and 1/2 ago. It was my wife's birthday, and I wanted to get her some stuff, But other than that now,

uh, let me see how I can look on my apple, pay my apple wallet, and I can see when I actually charged something. 3 27 So March 27th I went to Trader Joe's. So how maney, how long ago was was March 27th? That feels like a year

ago. That was, um, to at least 13 14 days ago, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So it's been, like, two weeks since since I did shopping outside the house. Uh, I got a, ah, pizza delivered the other day, and it felt like I was eating like, uh, like a Roman emperor. It just It just felt like, Oh, my God, this and it's like the easiest thing in the world like whoever really worries about getting a pizza delivered. But it just felt like,

Well, here's something I wouldn't really be able to make it home. Uh, now you can make pizza at home. We do make pizza at home sometimes, but it's, you know, like good crust that you get. Um, I'm not Ah, expert. I have friends who are expert pizza makers at home, and they're like, instagramming their pizzas. And I'm like, I wish I had gotten on team. Learned how to make good pizza at home.

I'm keeping Passover right now, so we're making Mozza pizza. We would like it if you'd like my recipe for that delicious meal. I'm happy to pass it on to you. It's basically a cracker with tomato sauce and melted

cheese. I I am not Jewish. Um, but I love mata bread. Loved Item. One of my best friend and grade school was Jewish, and, um, I won't use his name because it would be ratting him out. He was not a fan. And so I would trade him packed lunch. I used to pack a lunch and I would trade him. Ah, like my regular bread for some of his matzo bread during Passover. I love it. I just really do connect. It

says every non Jew and every Jews like

No. Yeah, I know,

I know. I didn't know we'd like it like the 1st 2 days, Like we're saying like the early section here, and I actually keep it. I really try to keep this tradition and try to keep the whole eight days with no bread. And, um, are really you anything that has, um Well, yeah, I want to have keep it all, but I do a pretty good job, like I won't eat chips. And I want you, like, wraps and

stuff like that. Yeah, it's a lot easier to say is a non Jew when you're just sneaking, you know, taking it here and there. As opposed to maintaining it over the hole. Whole length of Passover, but yeah. Ah,

well, yeah, I know. It sounds like we're doing. Really? Were were pretty good citizens keeping our social distancing.

Ah, it is weird. Ah, and you know, and I know I've gotten feedback from people and people want to hear more podcasts. Ah, some people I've gotten and I, uh, I don't know how not to talk about it like there's a few people, and it is one of those things where you can't please everybody I know You mean with the readership of your column at the Wall Street Journal? You certainly know it even better than I do, and I know that there's at least some people who would like for me to do the podcast without even mentioning it, because they kind of want to get their mind off it. But I don't know how to do that like it's it's you know, I can't not mention And so I apologize if that's what you would prefer. But I just can't help but talk about the way that I technology intersects with this great quarantine.

Yeah, I mean, I everything I've written for the last month or so more has had to do with it because that was also, um, just been doing a lot on work from home. And that stuff has really been so useful to our readers, people who were just honestly not set up with the right tech tools to work from home. And I've been doing constant tips for our newsletters, and I do a daily tip for our newsletters and our podcasts and people have been loving it. But also I'm like, at one point, like what? Like how much is too much here and I've been struggling with that and if struggle with that with the air review, which was, How does I can't review this in a vacuum? I can't just ignore how I used to this system and under what conditions. And that's you know,

that's how I came to that webcam part of that review. And, you know, people said no like those She just has to wine about more things and was like, Well, no, I'm whining about the thing that I you have been using the most now and I really tried to balance that. At least the written review about about both of them. The video. I obviously focused on the Webcam. Um, and I did a piece yesterday because over the weekend I woke up on Saturday morning and this was, you know, last Friday was Trump on CBC's recommendation that we all wear masks or we start to wear masks, and I woke up on Saturday morning from two emails from reporters. Couple emails from readers being like my face,

I d doesn't work with a mask, and I serves that. Okay, well, just do this and you're a on alternate alternate appearance and they're like, that doesn't work. And I started playing around with it, and I was like all right, I'm gonna write a little bit about this. And is it a first world problem? Absolutely. We all can put in our passwords, but I It was an interesting story to go down the road of looking at how, Matt, How our faces air being read from, uh,

our faces air not being able to be read with a mask on and how some people have gotten it. And I found this woman who has been creating face I d masks, which are completely nuts. Really? Yeah, Yeah, it's like and I was like, You know what? I'm gonna do this story because it's interesting. We uses I'm using it as a point to talk a little bit about face I d. And yeah, I struggled. I I definitely struggle right now with Like what? What should I cover? How can I be of most help to? People have also just been writing and doing stuff all the time, so I don't really have time to

think about it, So I better So the face i d vs masks thing is something I mean to write about. I do want to write about I'm getting email about and the only reason I haven't written about it is that I'm still thinking it through. Um, but that How does a face i d capable mask work? What is what is the What? What's the trick? What? What? How did? I don't even understand how that would

work. So I've done that. This has been my last week of like, now week. I just kind of crammed out a lot of the reporting over the weekend cause I became so interested in it. But basically, no, you cannot register your faces An alternate appearance in face i d. With a mask. It just says obstructed. But it says, like, face obstructed. Can't register long stories you read in the peace. Some researchers in, uh there in Hong Kong, I believe.

Or maybe their mainland China. They figured out if you fold the mask and half, you can register your face and then you put the mask on in it and it could work that did not work for me. It works, like with very success. Honestly. Then I found this woman who decided she she had heard about this issue a couple months ago and she said, Oh, I'm gonna just print my face on a mask and then it'll work. Then she realized, No, that won't work, because face ideas and the whole tree depth system is looking for a three D. I mean, really, it's looking for your face. It's

looking for its the same technology that's there to defeat me. Holding up a photo of Joanna Stern in front of my iPhone face idea toe log in tow, as as

you, you know. And that's exactly what I wrote in the piece, which is like, There's a lot of irony here, which is that face I. D. Was actually engineered. You know, I did that piece back when when the 10 came out, when I tried to get my face recreated and asks that it didn't work. It's like the opposite here, Um and so yet then she just She figured out that if she made a claim old of a mouth and nose and that she went through this elaborate process, you can watch it in the video. And, um, she made a mass with the nose and mouth, and she then goes and registers that mask as an alternate appearance. With that, it works.

Huh? I did not read that I will have to look for.

I mean, she did for and like, just felt like this Woman's awesome. Her name is Danielle Baskin. She's been doing, you know, I don't know if you've heard of this other thing called Quarantine Chat where you could call a random person and talk. She's she's, ah, product designer and sort of an artist in San Francisco. And so she came up with this and she doesn't really plan to sell them right now. She also makes a really good point. She's like, If I can get mask materials, I'm gonna make them for people that need it right now. Um, but yeah, this works.

Uh, I have to admit, Ah, I I really feel like this whole thing is it's an exercise in empathy and examining your own biases. I've been aware ever since face I d. First became the replacement for touch I D. With the iPhone 10 now of what, 2.5 years ago? Um, that I I'm certainly aware enough that in a lot of Asian countries, face mask wearing in cold and flu season is comin. It's comin as an allergen type thing. It's considered polite if you yourself feel like you have the cold cold or something. But you know, not it not sick enough that you want to stay home, that you wear a mask as a courtesy to others around you'd Teoh lower the spreading. Um,

I'm aware of that, and I certainly, you know, I heard right from the get go that hey, face, I d doesn't really worst work when you're wearing a mask and people over here where masks all the time. And it wasn't that I dismissed it completely, but I dismissed it as a concern to some degree out of my own cultural bias where I sort of and this that I don't mean to sound dismissive. But, you know, I'd sort of written off the whole Asian facemask culture thing as a bit of low grade hypochondria. Yeah, and it's, you know, it just self examining my own cultural bias. It's like now that I really think about it.

Were the ones who were wrong clearly and for sure, and as this, this particular cove in 19 epidemic engulfed the world. They must have been looking at how long it took us in it in the US in North America and you know, in other European countries to to start wearing masks as though we were insane because they could tell that you know that surely wearing a mask is your out about however effective it is, it has to be at least mawr effective than not wearing a mask it all, even if it's 1% improvement, it has to be some level of an improvement. And where it's everything that that I've read about, it certainly suggested. More effective than that. We must have looked crazy going until the end of March without doing it. And now all of a sudden you look at face I d. And you think this is a problem? Ah, and surely Apple must be considering. This is well and as well as I haven't actually tried it on my pixel for pixel has Ah, the pixel four has a you know, all sorts of other android phones. Have

I tried it on the stamps? I don't have the pixel with me and I did not want to make a trip to the office for it for this piece. So I had a Samsung here and I had the same problem. It also wouldn't register with the with the mask on.

Yeah, it doesn't work as a 2nd 2nd phase. Yeah, because it needs more of your face to get, you know, you know, whatever is doing for the idea, and I will admit to It's not just Asian culture versus American culture. I I also got some very a t least it was a whole email threat, but from a daring fireball reader who's a surgeon here in America,

this is in my piece. Yeah, go on.

But yeah, well, And he wrote about and he, you know, is enthusiastic. You know, obviously he's daring Fireball Reader. He's into it and wrote me this whole thing about all the effort he tried to get through to get his face. I d power, you know? Oh, enabled phone toe work with a surgical mask and never really got a good It was like it ultimately came to the conclusion that there's no good way to get this to work.

No, I had the same exact experience. So when I started doing some reporting on it, that's what I started realizing that I looked through my emails was like, Oh, this guy's a doctor, Um, and in the peace and the written piece, I mean, it kind of goes all over the place is there was a lot to cover and was only so many words. I can convince my editors about face, idea and face masks right now. Um, but they've been dealing with this in the medical medical community for years, and one of the one of the doctors I interviewed said, You know, right now,

more than ever, it's actually a very big problem, and he walked me through why it was, because if he's in the operating room and there is bare and right now, there's limited PP. There's really limited supplies for them. He's in the operating room and all, and this is something I realized to a couple of weeks ago. My mom was in the hospital, the entire all these hospitals run on phones. At this point, it was nuts. To me. It was completely surprising to me when I was with my mom. There are a couple of weeks ago, um,

and he he says there's no pager system. There's no other way for another doctor in the hospital to get in touch with me. They have to text they they use A at this one. He was specifically said, We use iPhones, so if he's in the operating room where he's going, he's going in the cath lab or or something. He has to. He can't pull down his mask because right now that means he'd have to replace the mask or make himself susceptible to other things in the room. And so he doesn't want to pull down the mask. And he will also have gloves on and doesn't want to contaminate the gloves, so he often will ask the nurse or somebody else in the room. They will tell them his password, and then they have the password they put it in. And then he says he often changes his password. Um, I heard this from other people right now in the medical community, too, because again they don't want to be taking on and off the masks, and they don't want to be touching and contaminating more gloves and replacing the gloves

and and again outside the professional sphere. There are more people now wearing gloves as part of their, uh, you know, personal protection going out. It's not. I don't think it's is effective. And I actually think that because if you frequently wash your hands, you might be better off just using your bare hands and washing and using hand sanitizer very frequently. But if you want to wear gloves, you wear gloves. But if you're wearing gloves and a mask, you're no good with any of these biometric authentication things.

Yeah, I know in my piece as you'll see, I did the gloves work fine for putting your password in. If you have rubber gloves, it works completely fine on the touch screen,

right? But it wouldn't work for touch i d. You're down to using your down two using the pass code,

your back to the past, right?

And it's funny because free until I'm gonna guess. About six months ago, I just had a six digit numeric pin number from my phone and at some point in one of these law enforcement hacking into iPhone, you know, like Oh, and then there's this Israeli company that makes a device than they can, you know, go through. Remember that and people were doing the math and and they can't go through as many numbers as you think, because the, um, the security chip in the iPhone that protects it only allows at a technical level only allows, like, 12 attempts per second. Um, I think that's what it is. 12 12 which sounds like a lot.

But when you really want to go through a ah, you know, the total number of six digit passcodes possible 12 per second. Isn't that great? Um, but if you increase to an Alfa numeric one, you don't You don't need to have a crazy long password like the way that you you know, the basic advice for how you're signing up for a new Web experience and you want to create a strong password. And it's, you know, 27 characters, long upper case and lower case and punctuation and numbers. You don't need that with a phone to be very, very secure, like a six or seven character password that uses just, you know,

it could just be like all lower case and a punctuation character. Just that number of characters put you into, like, 27 years on average, to crack your phone or something like that, or even longer

so you don't changed.

I changed it to a you know, pretty simple. Not too hard to type in. Pass code on my phone. Um, you know, I don't want Teoh. Don't want to

reveal to tell me what it is. Nobody

will know, but it's not too hard. It doesn't involve shifting to the various keyboards on the phone very much. Uh, you know, and it

has nothing to do that right now. Honestly, Looking at what? Ever

since ever since I did it, I realized how few times I actually need to put the code in my phone. But now that when I do go out, I'm wearing a mask and, you know, and as this eases up, hopefully in the weeks to come and I do go out more, but we'll be wearing a face mask. I guess I'm going to go back to a numeric pass code because I'm gonna have to enter it because you can't, you know, just fundamental. Basic. All right. If you're gonna get on the team, face masks and wear a face mask when you go out, you can't just lower it every time you want toe. Get on your phone.

That's exactly what I wrote in the piece was like, That's a very bad idea because then you're just gonna be touching your face. And that's like, you wouldn't normally be touching your face that way anyway, So don't do that right. And just and to be clear in the piece, you should wear a mask, like if you being wearing a mask right now is one of the nicest things you can dio, as you were saying before, right? Like, you're not only protecting yourself, you're protecting other people,

you know, and and you're removing the stigma. So the previous advice here in the U. S. Was you should only wear a mask if you feel like you might have symptoms, or if you know that you have the colder flu or if you know that you know you think you have the cove in 19 but you have to go out anyway because you know whatever you live alone and nobody else can help you get your prescription or your groceries or whatever, where a mask. If you feel like you have anything with that stigmatizes the people cause then all of a sudden, if the only people wearing masks or people who are sick. Then everybody looks and I, you know, I admit, I think I even mentioned this on my show. Like like five weeks ago that I was out in the early days of this. You know, before we were quarantined, I was talking to Federico.

Va Tichy, who lives in Italy and Italy, was hit hard, you know. But before it really erupted there, it was just, you know, in the early stages of hey, Italy might have a problem. Um, I mentioned that I was out and I saw two people wearing masks here in Philly and I thought was, like, a little freaked out. Not like I like walk to the other side of the street. But I just thought it was like one of the first things I had noticed where I was like, Hey,

things are starting to get weird. But then I thought to myself, Oh, are are they sick? Do they feel sick? It is a stigma. And if everybody when you go out, you wear a mask, removes the stigma. Everybody feels comfortable around other people in masks. I mean, it's it's going to take us collectively. Some getting used to, but I feel like it's happening quickly.

Yeah, it's funny. I mean, that's not technology related, but I did it is that stigma and definitely this cultural shift. I feel it when I go get this coffee. I don't do every day. But every couple days when I go get my coffee, where my mass now my gloves. And that's when I sort of started noticing the face I d thing as well. And you know, it's frustrating, but whatever, Um, you sort of feel like if you're wearing a mask, but somebody else is in, you can feel a little bit weird like,

Oh, I think you might be sick and like, I need to protect myself from you. And that's sort of how I felt like when I've been around other people that are not wearing masks like oh, imminent. You, like, sort of even raise it or you're like, uh, do you're gonna be offended that I put on my mask and you don't have one. But the more people that wear it, the less will feel that way.

Yeah, definitely.

You know, we won't feel like Oh, you might be sick or I'm scared that you're sick. I mean, it's this whole new weird thing. In fact, like, right before we had left the office, there was like, people were sort of starting today. Whoa. Well, he knows somebody who had it, and maybe we shouldn't go near them. And, you know, is this weird thing?

Um, and it's socially. It can create this weird thing. Now we're like, Oh, that person is like cooties like, Oh, that person. Maybe you don't go near them. Um, and with the massive feels like, Okay, we have some semblance of, like, I respect that I'm preventing you from getting sick from wearing this. I mean,

prevent is probably not the right word, cause there again, some of these air not full on, but a surgical master. They're not n 95 masks, so they can't fully prevent. But it gives that I don't like that. Just camaraderie.

I feel like, yeah, you know, you a little bit of this, a little bit of that, a little bit of the other thing, and it all adds up. That's, you know, and like so many other things in life, that's, you know, it's a good strategy and It's not like, Oh, you're supposed to, um, you know,

have one. A single thing that is going to keep you from getting, you know, from spreading it. It's, you know, it's everything taken together. Stay inside as much as you can. When you do go out, maintain distance, wear a mask, wash your hands all the time. Use hand sanitizer in addition to washing your hands. Watch these videos and learn how poorly you've been washing your hands your entire life. Ah, you know,

it all adds up, and none of it is 100%. And if you're looking for 100% your you're not, you're not paying attention to the way it's supposed to work. Yeah. Ah, the Thea other thing, too, is I. I think it's a good it's a good point to where, regardless of how effective your mask itself is, whether you know and again, that's assume most of us don't have the end 95 ones because the end 95 ones air. Hopefully they're all going to the medical professionals who desperately need them. Um, but regardless of the effectiveness efficacy of the mask you have,

whether it's home made or if you've got some paper masks from a drugstore, Um, it is It is a somebody who has gone out for like, you know, just constitutional walks while wearing one. Now, it is a constant reminder that you've got one on it definitely makes me touch my face less because I realize, oh, I've got a mask. I'm not supposed to touch my face, you know, like, don't don't do it. Um, it's hot, you know? Yeah. I mean, one of my things,

that is number is gonna be summer is gonna be really fun.

I put I put a tin of Altoids by our stash of paper masks because I realized after the first time I wore one, I was like, Oh, you want you want a pump? You want Papa Minton? But before you put your mascot,

I've had the same thing and is in the lead of my article on like this. We have to get used to living in our bad breath, like we just we just have to

maybe to take two minutes, really

say that's a solution and that there are obviously solutions around getting around the face. I d thing. I mean, as I said in the piece, It's like This is a very minor inconvenience and but I do think it's interesting.

Well, I've So I've rethought this. So there have been rumors, and I know there are android phones that take a duel Dual biometric strategy where they have a fingerprint sensor and some kind of face. A facial recognition thing. Um, and I had until now been sort of on the side, you know, in the rumors of Apple putting touch I d into the actual displays. In addition to face I d maybe, um, and I had been thinking in terms of just simplicity, it makes sense for there to be one thing and that it made sense that Apple switched from touch I d to face i d with the iPhone 10 and the success ing iPhone 10 ass and iPhone 10 R and a iPhone 11 models. Since then, Um, because then there's only one thing to set up when you're all right. I have a new phone.

What do I have to do? You log into your iCloud and you give it permission for this, and then you set up your face i d. Or if it's, you know, a different If it's a phone with the button and you do your touch, i d. And now you've got your touch i d. And then you're using your phone and it would be kind of, you know, it's an extra step. If there were both touch I d and face I d Now you've got to do two things And then which one do you use when you're like Oh, I want Oh, I want to purchase the thing. Which one am I using? I don't know.

You have to make a decision or something. Now that I'm going through this, I see it. Ah, my eyes were open to the fact that mawr methods of biometric authentication or better it would be better than it would be better to have both,

although, in this case of you wearing your gloves and your mask, that neither will help. But yes, I agree. And you know, obviously there's thes rumors that they're going to come out with this new, smaller iPhone. And next, who knows now at this point. But soon, um, and that, you know, has been apparently toe for the people who have not who have been against face I d. Who have really still embraced the fingerprint sensor Well, So there's clearly an audience that really does still want that,

right? Well, I mean, I heard I always hear from them around. IPhone review time Last year I heard from so many people was yes, the size was a thing, but so many people with the touch i d preferring that feeling more secure, just don't want to look at the phone. Don't you know? So many who don't also seem to understand the security of it. I definitely hear from the fair share of people who just don't seem to get it. Um, yeah, there's there's this huge audience that still wants to use

their fingerprints. All right, hold that thought will come back to it. Let me thank. Our third and final sponsor are very dear friends at Squarespace, longtime sponsors of the show. I'll bet if you're a regular listener of the show. You've heard me talk about Squarespace before, but let me tell you about him again. They have the all in one Web publishing platform that they they have everything you need to get a website off the ground from domain name registration to ah whole slew of professionally designed templates to start with that look great. That scale great from phones to giant desktop browsers, two analytics. So once your site is off and running, you can see where people are coming from and how many people are looking at what on your site. And if you want to have a blogger or you want to publish a podcast, they have the CMS built in, so you can put new posts or new,

uh, episodes if it's a podcast right there on your site, all through squarespace itself. So if you have the idea and right now my trying to tell you it's you know. But look, we're all at home. I know a lot of people are sort of like doing Ah, it's almost like New Year's in April. Like where it's like, Well, I've been meaning to do blank for a long time, and you're doing things around the house like you've got like, a table that's always had one leg too short, and now you're putting, you know, fixing it so that the table doesn't wobble anymore.

Well, if one of those things in the back of your head or on your to do list has been to update an old website with something new or to build a brand new website for something. Squarespace is a fantastic way to start. It really is. Yes, they are sponsoring the show. And I'm telling you about him right now because they're sponsor. But I really would if you came to me and said, Hey, John, I need to get started with a new website. What should I do? I would tell you to try Squarespace, see how far you can go. In a couple of hours, you get a free trial in and after the free trial.

They have great pricing, but they also have a great deal just for listeners of the show. Ah, you go to score space dot com slash talk show. That way they know you came here from the show and just the same code as the u R l slug Right there. Just to remember that code talk show? No, the when you sign up to pay after your free trials over and ah, you save 10% and you could save that 10% on the whole year at one time, So go to score space dot com slash talk show. And remember that code talk show when you actually go to pay after your free trials over and ah, my thanks to them. So, uh, face I d touch I d. People not trusting it,

I definitely think. And I know I think, just sort of, I don't know. I have no inside information. Nobody It Apple has told me, like anything about like when anything might be coming either officially from Apple PR or unofficially, from friends who work that I know nothing in terms of when this iPhone nine or some people seem to think it's, you know, based on some clues of like screen protectors and stuff like that, that that prematurely hit the market, that it might just be called the iPhone S e. Again, not even the SC to They're just going to reuse the name iPhone SC. But now it looks like an iPhone eight. I suspect,

though it's coming next week. Um, just there's a couple of rumor people who seem to think it's coming next week. I think it definitely was originally supposed to come in March, and it was delayed because the whole supply chain got disrupted by a global band, Emmick, that started in China. Um and I, you know, everybody remembers that when the first iPhone SC shipped a couple years ago, it was surprisingly popular, even though Apple, even to the point where Apple, like Tim Cook on the quarterly called like three months after it came out, had to say yes. We were surprised by the popularity of this product.

And you know, he had to admit it, because if you went to apple dot com at the time and tried to buy one, it was like, you know, six weeks shipping or 33 to 4 weeks or something like that, whereas most Apple products, you buy it and Ding Dong, it shows up the next day.

I have. I'm just searching my inbox is I, um my I have so many readers on I don't know if it's because they skew a little bit older. Yes, many of my subscriber readers or older um, so many readers following the reviews that I did in the fall of the new iPhones were asking for this phone to the point where they were saying they were thinking about going to Android because they preferred they would. It was a combo of the two things smaller and fingerprint sensor. And I haven't have to sift through a lot of these, but, I mean, I just searched right now iPhone s e. And I get yes, 65 responses just on the first page. Um, moral. 50 responses. Another sickness has 65. I think I think this will be a It is like people know that that this phone is coming and they're waiting for, and they will buy it.

I and you know, I talk about my mom somewhat frequently. Ah, on the show, Um, and I don't mention her in specifically as opposed to my dad. I know there's, like, a like a trope that it's, you know, your you know, your grandmother or my case. My mom who is a grandmother. Then you bring it up because it's, you know, the the you know you're bringing up a woman because you think they're the technically inept ones. My mom is far more technically adept than my dad.

My dad doesn't even have an iPhone. Uh, just when he texts and he has he does use Ah, I message, but he uses it from there. I, Mac, um, but when my dad text me from a phone, like whenever a doctor or something like that, he just text from my mom's phone and says, Dad here. But he's also he also just doesn't want to spend the money. He doesn't even want to spend the money. Like when my mom gets a new iPhone, which he and she's waiting for this one.

She wants the one with the button because she knows how to use it. And, um, he won't even take her old iPhone, which still works. It just sort of is at the point where she's had it for enough years, where it's sort of not a great battery life situation. It's, you know, usable and she doesn't use a lot, but she want to get a new one. He won't even use her old one because he doesn't want to spend whatever it costs. 15 $20. Whatever it would cost to add another phone to their phone line doesn't want to spend it. Um, just won't do it,

but she and she's more technically adept than my dad. By far She's much more clever than she gives herself credit for, but she just feels like she's mastered her iPhone and doesn't want to learn something new. Yep, she just doesn't. And she has me and I'm I think, a good son and I'll you know, she she could get ah, face I D based iPhone And I would talk her through everything she needed to be talked through, and I know that she would get it very quickly. I think Apple did a great job by reinventing the fundamental interface where Okay, that button that you used for everything it's gone. And now you just swipe up from the bottom and you can kind of do everything that you used to do with the button just by swiping up. She would get it. I know she would. She doesn't want to try, and she doesn't believe

it. I have the same with my parents, but mostly with these readers. I'm that I'm now looking through it, and, um, I have this one Readers. This is like he says, the home button. Such a simple concept that Apple doesn't seem to understand that I am sure that there are no seniors on their design team and then he signs it on record of his name. Senior citizen Blank his name, Um, another person again. Ah ah. Two reasons I'm waiting for this new phone. I refused to give up. My home button is number one to facial. Recognition is not for me,

but I get

it. I'm super excited just for this phone to help these people.

Yeah, and I do think that that is, you know, and again, I don't know for a fact that apple, if there had been no global pandemic, they would that they would have announced in March. But I strongly suspect that they would of that. It might have been some sort of media event of some kind where they would have done it alongside the iPads in the Mac book air, maybe, or something. I don't know, but I believe it that they were delayed. And I think that one of the reasons that they wanted to wait if assuming that's true, that it was delayed, is they're anticipating this being very popular. And,

you know, if it starts at 399 bucks and it's got the modern a Siri's chip from the iPhone Elevens, and I think it's gonna be very popular. And so I feel like they definitely didn't even if they could have announced it in March and had its and said like, Oh, but you know, it's gonna you know it will be available in three or four weeks. They want this thing to be ready because I think they're anticipating a large number of, um, you know, I think just like the original iPhone S C a couple years ago, I think it's gonna be very popular.

Yeah, and I mean, like I said, this is always when I when I review the new iPhones, there's always that crowd that's like, I am not the earlier doctor. I do not want all this new stuff. I want this. I love my iPhone. I like these things about it. I wanted to say the same. I want now a better camera, like the rest of the world and it to be faster, but everything else the same. And this is for them and like that, I mean, it's enough. I mean, I guess that's my review.

It's a nun. You know. It's an unusual position for Apple to be in, although maybe, you know, they kind of were in that position with iPods 15 years ago. But not even the iPod was never anywhere. Nearest popular is the iPhone like they're really in. The iPhone is so popular that there's only a handful of technologies that have ever had that many users, you know? I mean, there's Microsoft Windows. Certainly. Google, Google search You know there's a reason Number one. It's just brilliant that you just you type google dot com. It's still one of the great technical marvels in the history of human civilization that the Google Home page it's just this one box with a button and the extra goofy I got Lucky button and you type a question in there and you hit return and you get answers is amazing.

But there's a reason why Google all that everything that changed about Google as a company in 20 years? There's a reason google dot com is still just a text box with a white background and a button. Um, it works, and people are familiar with and the basic I'm not saying that Apple is going toe have home button touch I. D. IPhones forever probably not. Apple will eventually, I think, move forward somehow. But I feel like the insane popularity of the iPhone to the level of reaching normal people who wants their familiar with the thing. And rightly so. This isn't me complaining about non nerds who won't just get with it and switched to a whole new paradigm for getting around their phone. I totally get it. That a normal person who's become mastered their iPhone. Why in the world would they want something different? All they want is a If I could just get one with better battery life and if the cameras better, too, that's great. But don't change anything,

right? And it feels like it will be interesting to see how Apple positions this. But it feels like this is like the iPhone that Apple doesn't want to make, but they do it there, or they're going to do it because they know people want it, you know, and there it always seems like apple. It doesn't usually bend to those situations, but maybe in this case, they they do, though there's such a user base and audience for it. Um, maybe they just It also seems we don't know the size of the screen. It seems like a lot of the reports point to it actually, being 4.7 and not four like the current sec. Yeah,

I I think it's gonna be exactly the same. Size is the iPhone 84.7. I think that if you, you know, show it side by side with an iPhone eight or an iPhone seven, you won't be able to tell it apart other than you know, other than by turning it on and like going to the settings about to see what the hell it is.

So then that's gonna leave us the question of why they have it.

Well, I think it's, you know, I think it's I I think it's because if they can sell it for 3 99 and because it the familiarity it's going to be, it is going to be a selling point to ah Holton of people, you

know. But I just bought an iPhone eight for a video I did a couple weeks ago for 500 bucks, Um, and it's the same side. If it's presumably gonna be the same size is this, then they cheap out on a couple of the different internals, maybe on the camera. But otherwise it's the same. Yeah, or maybe it's a little bit smaller. Maybe they've engineered it. So there's less of a vessel and it's a smaller

phone. Well, and I think it also is a thing that, like the previous iPhone SC, it's not a product that's on an annual schedule. It is something that they'll be, you know they'll be selling. Let's just say they call it the iPhone S C. Again that the iPhone s again, that they might be selling the iPhone in SC again for the next 2.5 3 years. Who knows,

You know, right? And then what? And then the eight goes away next year when the when the new phones

come out right, or maybe it goes away when they debut this thing next week or the week after.

Whenever it's going to be, I do have. I do feel like they might alter the design here just to make it a little bit smaller. Um, I don't know. To hit that now I don't know.

We'll see. I don't think so. That yeah, I think that I think that the same way that the original iPhone s he looked exactly like an iPhone five s is what they're going to do with this.

But the design might just be a slightly different. And then it's got just trying to imagine what the specs are that are different from the eight that's on shelves right now for 500

bucks or whatever. Well, I think it will have the A Siri's chip, the A 13 from, I think, from the iPhone 11. And that would give it years of leg room for software updates and stuff and some some kind of better camera and, you know, better battery life through more efficient components. And that's it, you know. And there you go. So here's my question. My last thing I want to talk about before we sign off is going back to your comment earlier because that this is what reminded me of it is that a big part of this is that if I'm pulling the 3 99 starting price, that's just a guess. I don't know. Maybe it's going to start at 499.

Maybe 3 99 is too optimistic. But it's certainly going to be, ah, brand new iPhone that Apple's just released in 2020 with years ahead of it in software updates and, you know, speed that will be more than usable for typical people for years to come. Um, at a much half the price of a knife phone 11 right are or at least half the price of a niven 11 pro much

lower, but hopefully, like, $100 less than the current eight, which starts at just looking it up was 450

right? This is the big thing that sticks out to me about the Mac books. Is the ipads to have this wide range of prices available? So the I've iPad pros? Yes, start at a high price. But there's three iPad air, which they brought the name back out, and it's a much lower price. And then they have the just plain iPad with no adjective, which starts at a really low price.

Yeah, like 3 29

Yeah, and you know, and they have keyboard cases available that you can, you know, open up and they work with Bluetooth keyboard. So there's third party stuff that you can buy if you want to use it, and and they all get the track pad support right? That which is really cool that this whole new track pad support that everybody is so excited about. Everybody's to see these 300 to $350 magic track pads that are coming out for the iPad pros. But there's a logic tech cover with a built in track pad that Apple collaborate collaborated with logic. Tech on that a lower price and will work with lower price iPads. Um, but the Mac books still started 9 99 and we can be happy that the Mac book Air with the retina and the new keyboard. And you know it's not like they're selling a two year old Mac book Air for 99. It's brand new, and it's really good. But 99 is actually a pretty high starting put point.

If the Mac book is the platform you want to get in on and it you know, the iPhone has a lower starting point. The iPad has several options at lower starting point, and that to me, I don't know what Apple should do about it, but I kind of feel like That's one way where there really steering people towards iPads where it's like, Okay, if your budget for a laptop ish type thing is five or $600 you don't even you can't even really consider a new Mac book. You're either looking at a used Mac book or a new iPad

on the it feels like on the iPhone, they're gonna have the greatest price, uh, scale if you if you think that I phones, I mean what you have the max that goes up to what I mean. $2000.

Yeah, I'm enjoying your son's melt out.

Yeah. Is that what's happening

upstairs? I don't know. Well,

I don't think it might be

singing e. I can't

really tell if you can't

if he's really happy or really upset.

Oh, no, He's screaming. He's He's upset. OK, I wish I knew what he's I mean, it's just so funny. The things that he cries about these days to um yeah, it's been, uh,

yeah. We gotta get your dog in here. What's your dog's name? Pixel. No.

What? Browser

browser? I knew it was something

technical. Yeah, and he hasn't bothered me. He hasn't wanted to come in here, which means that my son's upstairs probably feeding him whatever he's been eating for dinner or snack. So that's why he's not in my office. How

is browser doing with the with everybody state. Do you think browser notices or his browser? Just like, Hey, this is cool. Everybody's here. All my people are here.

Um, browser is first of all, very dirty because we can't get him groomed. So he's very long and shaggy And I, um, you know, it's just not easy to groom a dog. I've watched a lot of YouTube videos, and I'm just like we me, my rifle like way. We don't think we should do this. This is not seem like a good idea. Even though we've bought, like, a lot of the supplies was like, he either is just gonna end up like you're just having, like,

a lopsided haircut or like you just worried that we could hurt him, right? Right, s So we're just hoping that in a month we can take him to a groomer. Um, if anyone on the show is like a secret underground groomer in the New York New Jersey area, please contact me um, but really, Um, but yet, no, he's He's, um I think he's annoyed. He's truly annoyed, especially by my son, who thinks that he's like his his brother. And like they just he just pulls his tail and tries to play games

with him all day. And he's here all the time now.

Yeah, he's here all the time. He never goes outside. I mean, we go outside, we go for a walk. Stuff? Yeah. Dogs.

Air usually opposite where dogs are like Oh, my God. I'm so glad you're home. I'm so glad you're home. Where have you been? Where have you been? I'm so glad you're home, but I feel like at some level, dogs also, they may not realize it, but they kind of like their alone time to

he. I think he was that way the first couple of weeks, Like the first week and 1/2. He's like, Oh, my God. You know, you're in your office and my wife's upstairs. I can go back and forth, and you guys were right both here. This is amazing. And then I think he realized Wait, they're like, not leaving during the middle of the day. And also we canceled our dog, Walker, because we don't want anyone coming in the house in the middle of the day.

Both. It was like we're fighting over who gets who has to walk the dog. And if he's lucky, he gets walked for 10 minutes, you know, because we're like, we got to get back to work or something like that. We've extended our walks in the morning in the evening, but, um,

yeah, yeah, you've got

stuff to do. Have time for dogs. Yeah. I mean, he has made a lot of appearances in my videos. Eso that has made him happy. I think you know, he he does get very excited when he sees that people like the videos.

Without that, that's the last thing. Very last thing I wanted to talk about is that the you even mentioned it that you've taken on an expanded. You've always had videos that accompany your columns. But now you've You've taken on a role where you're in charge of this whole video team for the, um, at the journal dot com. They

still can't. I mean, I'm not anymore. I did that for about a year. About two years or a year and 1/2 ago. Um, I

didn't realize that that so you're you're not leading the video team anymore.

No, I'm not leaving the video team anymore. But I do produce some videos on the side and work with some of the teams in our department to work on some longer form pieces. And, um, I manage a small team of stuff that works at my stuff and other things mostly related to technology. I did a sort of executive produced a big piece last year on Amazon was a three part series. We just finished working on a long piece. That is, uh, I'll publish it at some point. I don't know when, but it's a 30 minute documentary that I worked on on my own that, um, well, it's It's a It's a deep subject about death and technology that wanted toe play around with something a little bit different than what I typically dio. So I worked on that for the last couple months, and now I'm starting to again get back in tow, leading some other smaller projects on the video team at the journal. So

do you feel like as as you're writing your columns now, during this as your home is, is it harder to do the videos or easier or just different? Because obviously, production quality has to go down to some degree because you can't go to a studio. Your home

is it is maddeningly hard. It is maddening, and it is very hard. And I have a great producer. His name is Kenny. Kenny Waas is He's a fan of your show, so you might actually be listening. Hello, County He he is so we can't shoot together and he's shot. You know, he shoots and produces and edits all my stuff. And we've been working together for the less I don't know, maybe, like 68 months now. And we've done some really ambitious things over those times. You did the bubble video. We did that Renaissance video for the for the,

uh, iPhone review. Um, I can't think of some other ones what we've done, and so we've really up production quality on those were at this point, though. I'm shooting with an iPhone. I had to, like, figure out. I mean, I've shot with iPhones before, but I've had to upgrade all my stuff to shoot with an iPhone. Do audio here, do tracking. And I have a whole have that all set up at the office.

Um and so I've just been spent. I spent the 1st 2 weeks sort of troubleshooting the set up. Um, and now I'm kind of set up, but it's still hard. It's everything from, you know, shooting takes the number of hours, even if they're short scripts to media Management and then getting that all on my computer and then uploading it to him to edit, making sure audio is okay when there's a 2.5 year old in the house, so I can only really shoot in and track my stuff. And the evening, Um, that's why also tried to push you off toe doing the evening cause usually naps from, like 2 to 4. So,

yeah, it's all been a You know, I don't want to Like I keep saying saying like, I'm not gonna complain. Um, I love my job. I get I have a job. I I feel still like I've got some creative spirit that I feel like it's kind of been dwindling over the last couple of weeks and I just need a little bit of a break. And, um, I really do hope at some point soon we can get back to some semblance of normal for a lot of reasons, but yeah, I don't want to complain, but it's definitely not been easy.

Yeah, I I figured you would say that because it just is such an inherently collaborative medium. And I know that there's some people who do their YouTube channels all by themselves, and I don't know how they do it, but I know that a lot of the especially the higher concepts stuff that you've done I mean, the Renaissance Fair one really comes to mind. But it's such a high concept, it's clearly just a large scale collaboration. Um,

absolutely, Absolutely. And I mean that even, just like connection with Kenny and my producer, Kenny, who is my producer. Other producers in the office. I mean I and also we have this constraint right now where I actually have a couple of big ideas. I want a pitch and, you know, get the budgets for a lot of the stuff that I've done. My independent stuff actually doesn't cost that much money to do, even though I think a lot of people think that it does. We are a very, very savvy team, and we keep costs quite low, even on the things that you think would be very expensive.

We keep the cost very low. But on some of the other stuff I've led this three part Amazon Siri's that I led. That was considerable. Edgett, This documentary I've been working on is to consider a budget. You you want to have people in the room to sort of talk through how we're gonna invest. What are we gonna do? What's the timeline gonna look like that? I just I can't imagine leading from afar, Um, especially on the shooting. We are sending shooters out in some regards. Some of our people are have the right equipment and they can go out into the world and go shoot. But that's very limited. Right now, most media organizations are trying to limit that right there,

trying to keep most of their reporters were out of harm's way if they can, um, especially, like, you know, some of the topics that I want to go after doesn't there. They intersect right now, like there are some certain corona virus stories that I'm very interested in. The intersection with tech and coronaviruses. Obviously, we've been talking about, but, um, yeah, I just think it's if it's definitely hard. It's been a very

big adjustment. Yeah, Imagine so. Well, I was delightful to talk to you. Um,

you two, I really didn't. We never start recording the podcasts.

Yeah, I'm ready. He's ready. They could start.

I'm ready to go. What did we, uh You know, I'm totally good for another two hours.

Your is your stomach, though?

No, my stomach isn't. But that means I don't have to deal with my screaming toddler upstairs, so yeah.

All right. Joanna Stern.

Has your son been doing

great? You know, is 16. He's in 10th grade. School is canceled in Pennsylvania through the end of the were not cancelled. He has online schooling. Uh,

when did he get to be 60?

No, it's crazy. The you know he can self direct. If anything, it seems from the grades we get, he's actually doing better. Ah, he's, you know, he's We were worried that he would blow it all often think, you know, roll his eyes. He's doing his work. It's, I think we're on Week four, since he's been at home. Part of that was the spring break.

So it wasn't nonstop school, Um, but socially, the thing that's interesting. And I think that the girls, I'm sure, are having a harder time than the boys. But his friends, they socialize over the Internet anyway, they don't like to get together, Really. It just seems like that's in pain. And, you know, if you go out and get together, you've got to come home and you have curfew.

And it's like if you just doing it all over discord and playing games, you're both a playing your games and talking to your pals and you. It's a lot easier to stay up really late doing it because you're not having left the house, you know, right and so socially in him and his friends. I don't think they're doing anything differently than they would do if there was no quarantine. You know, they prefer to spend their spring breaks collaborate, you know, prowling around over their computers and phones. It's very, very different. You know, nothing is more different about his life than my life at the same age as a teenager. I couldn't wait to get out of the house every chance I get when I was 16.

Yeah, maybe also don't know the full story. You don't think he wants to go out and party with his friends at least a little or like Oh, you know, it's did 10th grade. Ah, doesn't

seem like I mean, I think he misses a little. I think the fact that it's four weeks and it hasn't seen anybody, its's gotta be weighing on a little. But it's right. I don't think it's anywhere near as big a deal. You know, just talking to the other parents. You know that. We know the girls in his class, you know, clearly get together physically, you know, in normal times right physically and go shopping together and they go out to you and sleepovers and sleepovers. And it's, you know, it's just it's just the difference between girls and boys in some way. Um, you know, and I just don't think the girls three girls don't want to spend 18 hours a day playing video games they have. Why a wider range of interests?

I just can't believe he's 16 I feel like I mean, I probably did meet him when he was probably eight or 10 or something.

Probably younger. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah, it's crazy, but he's doing well, you know? And, you know, all three of us are, you know, homebodies to some degree. So I think we're doing better than Ah, a lot of people, you know, My dad, I think,

is my dad's a real extroverts and really, you know, it's just everybody you know. It's town relives Everybody knows Bob Gruber. Ah, you know, I think it's kind of driving him nuts, not seeing everybody that you normally sees on his daily. Just walk around and go get coffee and go here. And, you know, he has this whole routine and retired life where he, like, goes one place to get coffee and and go somewhere else to buy a scratch off lottery ticket.

Like, Why don't play bingo. I mean, as

the plane. Bingo. Right. But it's like I like I said, Well, why don't you just buy lottery tickets? That Jakes were you by the coffee needs like Well, you know, I realized he doesn't want to say it, but he just wants somewhere else to go, you know? And now he doesn't go

on that way. I'm definitely that way. Yeah, I missed the out. Like I said, I missed the office so much. It's like so, like, maybe just a sad person How much I love the office. I just I I love the office. And so I love the people I work with and yeah, yeah.

Now. All right. Joanna, Thanks.

Great to talk to you.