Welcome back to the 20 minute VC and Founders Friday with me, Harry Stabbings, and I'm so excited for this episode today. Why? What? We use this tool for all of our research here in the 20 minute V C. It's what allows us to have the linkage on the cross references between one guest and what they say about a specific topic and how we cross reference that to another question we use in another episode that has probably given, in a way, in terms of the company. So I'm so thrilled to welcome Corner White Sullivan co founder and CEO Rome Research, the tool taking over our industry, providing a seamless note taking tool for network thought. As I said, I really do just love the tool. Prior to founding Rome, they Corner, founded to pry businesses and also worked at Huffpost,

is a co founder of Huffpost Labs. When he reported directly Arianna Huffington on Huffpost CTO, I'd also want to say a huge thank you to Jeff Morris Jr. Some amazing questions suggestions today. I really do appreciate that Jeff and meters on me to thank you, but before you move into the show, stay. I'm sure you've heard about it, But my word. I just love this product. Carter Carter simplifies how start ups and investors managed equity track camp tables and get valuations. Go to carter dot com forward slash 20 V C to get 10% off. More than 800,000 employees and shareholders use Carter to manage hundreds of billions of dollars in equity, and Carter now offers fund administration so you can see real time data in the Carter platform and work with Carter's team of experienced fund accountants. Simply go to carter dot com forward slash 20 V C to get 10% off. And speaking of teams that did,

you know there will be 1.4 million job openings for developers in 2000 and 20. And that's where my friends at Terminal Coming term. There's a remote teams engine for fast growing companies connecting you with global talent to deliver the product building powerhouse your business needs to grow. They provide services and infrastructure in a complete solution that allows businesses to build on scale their remote engineering teams from the ground up without sacrificing experience or quality, from workspaces to community to on the ground support. They take the guesswork out of remote so that you can thrive. But don't take my word for it, just as high growth businesses like gusto chime earning and hymns or trusting terminal with their remote teams. And you can find out more today at w w dot terminal dot io. That's terminal dot io, but that's enough for me. So now I'm very, very excited. Hand over. Conaway Sullivan, co founder and CEO at Rome.

Research to You have now arrived at your destination corner. What can I say? A huge fan of Roman. What many people don't know is that we actually structure all of our thinking and preparation for every show, using room behind the scenes. So it was a little bit of a farm boy episode for me, but thank you so much for joining me. Stay Connor. That's

so amazing. It's a pleasure to

be here. Well, I would love to kick off stay and taking a slightly unusual first question, but I suppose, to a little birdie before the show, and they told me about a high school wrestling career. But you had to learn Thio, talk to me about having to learn to win and how that impacted your mindset.

Yeah, that's hilarious. So I hit puberty pretty late, so I just wasn't particularly physically strong when I was young, when I was going to high school and I had actually done freshman football but had been too slow and too poorly coordinated. Thio do anything except be on the line, But I remember the coach of the football team saying that thing you could do that will get you to the best shape is wrestling. So I joined the wrestling team and then had one particular upperclassmen who was just convinced I was going to quit. And yeah, I was pretty dedicated, Thio proving them wrong and to sort of pushing myself past any limits I've seen. But it took me 2.5 years before I won my first match. There was a lot of psychological doubt, sort of not expecting to win, like going in and sort of gritting it out and making sure I didn't get pinned. But eventually I learned one move that people didn't usually see practice that quite a lot. Yeah, I also put in the work and cut weight and happen to get stronger over time. And so by my junior year, I end up doing quite

well. It's an incredible story of kind of persistence before we dive into the founding story for Rome, I guess. How do you think about that, then? And how do you advise Founders on the balance between really sticking to your vision and mission versus acknowledging when something could have been wrestling is not working giving up.

I mean, I think the thing is, you can have the long term vision, but then you also need to tactically be looking at How can you see yourself really clearly How going to see where the places where the strategy you have right now. You actually don't expect that continuing on this strategy is gonna succeed. So yeah, figuring out how Thio maintain faith in yourself and maintain faith in your ability to eventually solve the problems that are not solvable or tractable t today but figure out how to make progress. And it's interesting because I'm sort of a believer in the I guess the power of positive thinking, like luck favors the prepared mind. And if you're going into situations believing that you will find on answer to them. You're just more prepared. Thio see the opportunities that are there. So there's one thing in terms of psychologically prime yourself to find the opportunities. But you also have to be ableto change strategy and not be like two committed to a particular path. So it's sort of like strategic focus in, like a long term vision and grit. But then, tactically, being able to see that there might be many different paths, you could go to reach that angle. It's a tough balancing act

that certainly rings true that when you look at Rome, as they say, I spoke to Mike and Andy beforehand and they both mentioned you've been definitely thinking about, but also working on them for a long time. Internally. What was that founding moment?

Few with Rome in some ways rooms a continuation of the thing that first got me into tech, which was trying to solve problems of collective intelligence and how groups of people can really tap into the wisdom of the whole group, the different expertise that individuals might have, and then figure out how toe make sense of a complex world and take action as a whole. So my first company, which I started when I was 19, I was trying to do this for local governments. So we're trying to crowd source policy proposals and to show that the registered voters in a town thought that one idea or another idea was good And for many reasons, that didn't really work. We did end up getting acquired by ol, which gave me some more space to keep thinking about the problem. But yeah, in a sense, this is a continuation of the problem that I've been working on for

over a decade now. Did you get a university?

I did. I went to u Mass. Amherst. I didn't end up graduating with a diploma for a number of reasons. But that was actually where I sort of first got my exposure to entrepreneurship. Our first company, we won a few business plan competitions there, which is where the 1st 10 grand for seed funding for my first company came from

corner. I only lasted four weeks of law school, so do not worry. Do on deploy that I think you're fast, healthier standards for may. I do want to start it because when we chatted before you said Rome is not about taking out a nose, I guess. What is it about that and what end state you really want to achieve from the kind of the product paradigm

with Rome? Yeah. So the first step of it is about thinking better thoughts, right? The way we think about it is writing is a tool for thinking. And if you can't get compound interest on your thoughts if you can't build up a thought structure over time and continually go back and revisit and revise it, you're limited to just what you can hold in your head. So one of the challenges I ran into when I was an undergraduate writing my thesis, which was also about the software product that I was building, was just trying to put together this, like, grand unifying theory that was pulling from a ton of different domains. And I just couldn't hold the problem in my head. So the first call for room is we want to make it so that you can collaborate effectively with your past and future self so that as you read things as you have conversations and you write those thoughts down because the act of clearly articulating what you're thinking. It's hard to write things down in your own words. That's something the room is not gonna be able to solve for you right when you read a book. Most times people read a book.

They forget 99% of the book a year later. But if you actually write down some of the core insights in your own words, just that action alone is gonna crystallized the thought. Test your understanding of it and help you remember it later. But if you can come across those thoughts and build on them later, if you can say this idea is related. Thio five Other problems that I'm interested in that same unit of thought is reusable. You could get compound interest on your thoughts, and you can solve more complicated problems in the future with less effort. But the long term goal right is being able to do that also, with other people being able to build off of other people's belief, architecture or other people's evidence that they found for certain things, or what material was effective for helping them learn a thing that you're now trying

to learn. Do you know what's amazing about Rome? There is the fact that this next question is kind of inspired through exactly what you said there, which is kind of the correlation of ideas from the past to the present. Because when you look at Rome, today is a product you said specifically to me. Rome is simple, but not easy. And so I used Roman. I thought, Okay, how do you build challenge into a product? And straight away it came up my episode with Rahul from superhuman, you said about inserting challenge into a product. And so my question to you is, How do you think about that from the product perspective? And how steep do you want to make the learning curve without being too

steep? So our role model for this is Excel. XL's got 750 million users, and the phrase we use is low floor, high ceiling. So a product should have a really, really, really easy entry point. And most of people were using Excel, right? They're using it for, like, shopping lists, or they want a tool for making tables and visually laying out the things they're thinking about. But then, on the flip side. You have businesses that have been run for 30 years on a single Excel spreadsheet.

And so in some ways, Excel is actually a better programming environment. It's a purely functional, reactive, interactive environment, and in some ways it's better than a lot of the things we have in JavaScript or other programming paradigms. So we want something like that where it's really easy for people to get started and as they gain proficiency in the tool. And as they start to take on more challenging problems, they're able to learn the tool and extend it and use. It really is sort of a programming language for personal productivity and for personal development as steep learning. Curve is a good thing, because if the mountainous steep, then it takes actually a relatively short amount of time to get to the top of it. It takes a lot more effort, but you can get pretty far, pretty fast. And so that's kind of what we want is that there could be slow path up the mountain, and there can also be like Steve pass up the mountain where someone can gain a lot of power

quickly. Can I ask did you think about doing the CPM in style of on boarding? To really make that steep path up the mountain a little bit more gradual and kind of hand hold? The way to maximum efficiency was

the product. When we first launched, we did require every person who came in to go through an on boarding call. But we weren't charging from the first day because actually, we wanted to be ableto lean on end user innovation and see how people were using it. And so we wanted something a little bit different than the way superhuman runs things. And I still do every Tuesday, basically from 10 a.m. to 7 p.m. I'm on user calls, so I'll do a lot of 30 minutes on boardings, and at some point we will scale customer success team and do those mawr at scale, because currently I'm backed up for the next month. So we have done that, but also because Rome is what you make it like. It could be a very simple tool that you're just using and doing daily journaling and taking some meeting notes and your occasionally using some of these bi directional links. You were discussing earlier how when you have an argument with somebody, you're ableto pull up points that had come up in previous conversations from someone else, right?

That's definitely a power user use case where you're actually mapping out different arguments in different discussions you're having or using it as a sophisticated personal CRM or using it for project planning or those kinds of things. It's been really great that we've got such an active community that is making so many, like sometimes full courses on teachable or full courses, even just on YouTube, showing people different ways of using the tool, some of which we hadn't even thought of. So if you don't have to do the superhuman on boarding, it is usually better when people are coming through a friend, and that friend is giving them their own sort of opinionated approach to Rome. But there's many ways to do things in Rome, so we don't want to force people in tow just one single way of thinking.

You said about the incredible kind of community around it, and absolutely I've seen some of those videos and it's always a sign of like true customer and product love I guess my question and actually have to get full credit to Jeff Morris Jr for this. But his question is, how do you build a software cult like you have done with Rome?

I mean, you talked to some friends of mine, have seen me working on this for 568 years in the idea space a long time that I was silent like there was a time where I was like living in a van and working at the top of the mountain and went to India for a couple of years. And I didn't have quite the same engagement with a community of people that were like minded. But I guess it was about a year ago I decided to start using Twitter the way that I use Rome. So using it as like threads of threads like reusing my old thoughts, creating, amazed that people could go explore. And the way I started was just being pretty angry about the state of existing tools. And like why Evernote is a terrible second brain and just not a good place for organizing your ideas or building up a repository of research and also talking about other systems like there's a system that we're a big fan of called Del Castillo. Unfortunately, there was a book that came out recently called How to Take Smart Notes on How to Implement This, even just with pen and paper. And so we started talking a lot about those, or I started talking a lot about those and getting into some fights on Twitter with people who thought Evernote was the greatest thing and that really you just needed the right discipline and enough process, and you could make every network for you and for me, that's fundamentally wrong.

Ever. No, it's not built the way your brain is. And a lot of the friction that you have with reusing thoughts in every note is incidental complexity because they follow this files and folder metaphor from on archaic time. And so, yeah, I've been pretty loud and opinionated about the principles that I stand by and what I think is true and just sort of put out a frequency. And some people resonate with that frequency, and some people don't And I think just holding to that integrity attracts people who noticed that, like Oh, yeah, like I've had the same frustration. I felt the same pain before, and I want to be part of this different future. So I think that's part of it. Is just being pretty articulate about what we think is true and and some people love it and some people

don't tell me. I think it's almost like a mission statement of the West mission statements of the ones which kind of everyone agrees with, You know what I mean? Divide.

Yeah, there's something that's pretty amazing about having a nemesis. And for a long time my nemesis has been Tiago Forte runs the Evernote. I say he's trying to make every note great again, and he's got some really good ideas about knowledge management but has committed to being tool, agnostic and saying like Oh, yeah, all tools are the same. But I think that when the tools introduced this unnecessary friction, right, Like thinking about what file does this note need to be in, or like what folder to I put that file and it doesn't allow for re using this sort of fluid way that I think you need to for thinking tool. But yeah, like that fight has also just been a great thing for us in our founding moments

that absolutely it hasn't. It always been entertaining. See, in terms of kind of the cult like element, you know, go to markets always crucial. And when we tried it before, you said we have the Tesla go to market, I'd love to dive into this. What did you mean by this? And how does that mean you think about kind of go to market moving

forward? Yeah. So Tesla's business plan was to build a sports car, use that money to make a more affordable car, used that money to make an even more affordable car. And for the many years that I was working on Rome, it was a pretty unfunded ble idea. I had some great friends who were investors or who knew a ton of investors. But everyone was like, Well, isn't this just competing with Evernote is in Evernote, sort of a dead unicorn. And so the way that we were able to run the company, we're very, very fortunate. And also we made some decisions. I looked into what would be the ideal early user base.

Who are some people who are thinking a lot about thinking who are open to different kinds of habits and work flows that aren't supported by any existing tool and who are gonna be willing to learn those because the problems that they're facing are so complex that they needed a better system. They need a better tool. And so we actually got off the ground by getting customer funding from some folks in the effective altruist and particularly the AI safety community, people who are thinking about a risk. And I would say, like the broader Bay Area rationalist community. So people who are really thinking about how they think and how do they figure out what is true and how do they process their emotions as well to deal with the biases that our inheritance from our ancestors and so are go to market was really a handful of these organizations that paid us sort of an enterprise license where we were working really closely with the researchers and as long as we were building features that they wanted or that they would use, we keep getting the contract extended for another month, and that lasted us for really the first two years of the company and allowed us to build from something that was really quite complicated and wasn't really intuitive wasn't really easy to learn. But these researchers had enough pain and saw enough potential that they wanted to keep using this really early version of the Alfa. And that got us to the place where we could actually launch. And then from there room, it's really different. I have a lot of respect for Ivan and Simon from Notion. I've met with them a bunch, but their approaches like it's got to be really intuitive for every user comes in.

Let's play the lowest common denominator. You shouldn't really have to change your way of thinking to use notion, and we take the opposite approach. So our strategy has been let's go to the people who are willing to learn to use a power tool. And then many of them are writers or their investors or their founders or CEOs. And so there are a lot of people who aspirational e want to think like those people. And when they see that someone is having success and they're writing mawr, they're feeling more on top of their game for running their company or for making their investment thesis or like you, they're able to run a better podcast. They're able to ask better questions. They're able to pull up that are insight. All those things really helped drive the next wave of users, who often then have a bunch of people who look up to them, and especially when you see people starting to produce more output. There have been, people have said roams the reason they didn't drop out of their master's thesis or like Rome,

allowed them. Thio suddenly take their sub sack and make it something that's paid because they're producing three times as much with the same amount of effort. Those sort of testimonials then drive the next wave of adoption. So that's the way that we look at. It is starting with something that is sort of for, like, elite intellectual athletes, but then make it accessible and make it something that other people can learn to and

grow into. Listen, Conner, I adore room. I don't think anything would have kept me in that legal degree, I have to admit, but I do want to ask. You mentioned the product there, and we really dealt in there in terms of the team building the product. When we spoke before, you said something really interesting and you said I hire for grit and also died at. So how do you think about your hiring philosophy? I guess. How do you really stress test those two in reality?

So I spent a really, really long time founder dating for this company because I knew this was my life's work. My first company, we had a small exit that gave me some financial freedom. Thio go live in a van and work on this and not have to worry about a paycheck for many years, which is great. But this is the project that I want to be doing for the rest of my life. And so I want to be really careful about who I brought onto the team and who was somebody who I wanted to make that sort of like lifelong commitment to and actually I was still in India at the time, and I remember hearing about 42 which was a tuition free peer to peer coding university that was funded by a billionaire in France, and I saw Paul Graham tweeted about it, saying, you know this isn't another coding boot camp. This is another M I T. And they're filter processes. You know, there's like a two hour long online test that you take. That's basically just a logic puzzle.

Sort of feels like an I Q test, but it's also a test to see. Will you keep going all the way through the two hour time limit? Will you actually, like, keep doing this hard thing and have that dedicated focus for two hours? And once you get there, you get invited for a month long application process, which in the batch that I was and had basically 70% attrition rate because you're teaching yourself. See, there's no teachers. There's just some YouTube videos and a incredibly onerous machine grading system that will fail you for the whole day for, you know, a syntax error. And so there's a lot of emotional pain that people go through as there, trying to teach himself a new programming language and also having this rough grading system.

And remember, co founder there because he was the one who was up at four AM in the lab and he was able to teach me a bunch of stuff. And so he had the communication ability. He was like, clearly amazing, self directed learner. And he had dropped out of college as well because he wasn't impressed with the seniors in the engineering program he was in. He didn't see like a If spending four years makes me like them, I don't want to do that. And he went out to 42 because someone told them it was the hardest thing I've ever done. And that attracted him there and the fact that he was seeking out the hardest possible challenges, the places for peak growth. And then he ended up having the fourth highest score in the history of the school when he graduated. But more importantly, it was his work ethic and his sort of drive for continuous improvement, so that for us,

that's sort of what we look for. And everybody is like, Are they the kind of person who is going to be able to go through the dark night of the soul when they're working on a problem that hasn't been solved before? And are they going to be able to maintain faith and keep pushing themselves to their limits higher for talent trained for scale. We wrote it in Rome enclosure, and there's a lot of reasons for that. But when I first met him, the offer the first offer, I said, he's like, Well, you just call yourself seeing a month If you can teach yourself closure in a month, I'll give you a job. And he learned it in three weeks and then made him an offer to be a co founder, like maybe three or four weeks after that, because he was so fantastic.

I love that is a story. It's an amazing to hear the relationship that, but it's also amazing because you do also choose to live with the team. So I told me about this. Why did you decide to do this? And what do you think of the benefits of living with the team?

I mean, it's a family, right? I mean, for us, it's like this is much more than business, right? This is the future that we want to see. I want to build this graph of the world's knowledge so that my kids don't ever have to go to school. They can learn the things that they want to learn and find peers and find mentors and established credentials based on the quality of their work. I think that maybe this is also part of the reason there's this sort of cult behind. It is like Rome is a philosophy. It's a belief about how the world should be. So we try and put that kind of thing into practice and having orientation towards truth, seeking in our personal relationships and everything. But just having those, like really close bonds and having all that time to know each other as full people.

Now we're going the team. We currently have one of our first hires. He was brave enough toe brave the airports during the pandemic and come out here and stay here for six weeks. But we are gonna be primarily remote company, but it's still great to have people come out and say for six weeks or a month and just, like, really get immersed in the culture and for us to just be able to know somebody has a whole person and no, like, what do they wrestling with personally and just have those kind of bonds because I believe in we could do a lot with a pretty small core team, and it's good to know people for the long haul and be invested in them for long haul.

Totally, you said about kind of mapping the world's knowledge, that kind of the ability of your kids not to have to go to school in some respects, I guess people kind of compared to Avenue in all respects in all respects. Yeah, but people compared to have a note to notion toe other tools. Would you argue that? Actually, Google's a much more comprehensive comparison in terms of mapping the

world's knowledge, Guillermo from sight tweeted that he felt like us and notion had a better claim for mapping the world's knowledge. Yeah, I think there's something to be said that Google set out to organize the world's information, and now they're organizing all the information about their users to serve the perfect ad, which is not the same thing. We think a lot about research is actually, you know, not just search search will give you a single answer to one question, but it won't give you a path of like here all the questions you need to ask along the way to reshape your questions or, like, reframe your question. Here is the path to get from where you are to where you want to be. It's a much harder process, and it's one that requires, you know, you have to know where the user currently is.

And so for us, what we want is a layer on top of the web of each individual's personal brain. And for them to be able to share parts of that with the whole public, the whole world parts of that, with some of their friends or certain collaborators. And to be able to have basically a read write Web, a Web where, if I see a connection between two documents, even if I wasn't the original author of those documents, somebody else who has those two documents in their database can discover that I've connected them or someone who's reading something and see if they're friends with me. They can see that I've drawn a connection. So, yeah, that's the future that we wanna have is one where it's not algorithms that are determining how the world's information is organized. Those could be helpful, but a eyes or statistics machines Well, we're interested in How does someone at the margin Who's the first person who ever saw a connection between two things way before. And I can see that connection like, how can you make that connection explicit so that other people can follow

their path? We mentioned those tools earlier, and I kind of find it clarifying often Think about kind of the binary status is of bundling or, um, bundling. When you look at kind of the collaboration tool space today that we mentioned in the people, I think probably wrongly put you in. Do you think we're kind of bundling or um bundling when analyzing that market?

Say it's interesting because I've used I've seen other people use all sorts of tools for organizing their thoughts like they'll use their Kindle highlights. And then maybe they've got some dedicated software for reading pdf's and for building mind maps of the papers that they're reading and then using something like Fig MMA for laying out a bunch of thoughts digital white boarding all this stuff. But none of them have a paradigm of like reusing ideas in different context, taking the same data and showing in different contexts. So I think sort of move like Not yes, not no, right. Like in some ways, it's the wrong question. I think notions done a pretty great thing of saying, Hey, actually, you want your notes and your tables together You want your air table to be An air table is also working on notes as well. But if the underlying paradigm of all of it is not one that's generic enough to fit the domains that you're thinking about, that's one of the reasons were so bullish on graph databases is that there are better representation for the relationship between thoughts, the relationship between projects, the relationship between people and,

yeah, most of the tools that we have out there are based on the sequel databases and, like tables and Rose that doesn't have the same kind of structure. So, yeah, we're starting to see some re bundling, but I wanna live in a world where I could take the same information and view it in multiple different ways, interact with in multiple different ways. But be ableto always reuse the information that I got from one application in a different context. In a different view, like when the problem is slightly different.

Listen, I totally agree. What a shit question. Terrible. Yeah, e get away with a lot because your accent, it's great, Honestly believe I think I'm Harry Potter or Benedict happens. So I'm totally winning. By the way, I do want to move into my favorite, the economy, which is a quick fire round. So I say a short statement and then you hit me with your immediate thoughts in, like, 60 seconds or less. Are you ready?

Sure. If I ramble, you gotta give me the buzzer.

I'll give you the bus. Okay. So favorite book. And why? How

to read a book by Mortimer Adler. It's an algorithm of thought that changes how you read all other books. It was definitely very influential for Rome. You don't wanna waste time on bad books And for really good books, you want to give it a much more thorough reading and how to read a book. It is the guide to an auto addicts, continuous education, classical liberal education. It's

fantastic. What's your superpower? And then your weakness in company building 30 seconds on each,

I guess. Like maybe some combination of like wild vision and Grete I I think that being ableto clearly picture a future that I wanna live in and communicate that and find the other people who believe in. It has been great. And then I'd say probably one of my weaknesses is just organization right. That's why I needed to build room. I'm pretty a d d and have a million thoughts, and it's hard to get them into a great process and integrate structure. So I try to build a prosthetic brain to make up for the weaknesses of my first brain.

What would you most like to change about the world of tech start ups today? I

think that for all the talk of black swan farming, ah, lot of it's really bullshit. I mean, it's been amazing to me how many people want to invest in Rome now and versus how. If you wanted to a year ago when, like, $10,000 would have made the world of difference for us. So I would like to see, actually, just like much larger investments in people who had actually risky. You're ambitious ideas that were pretty far away from having traction. So I think that that's something I would like to see is like more small investments in much larger a raise of

problems. Who was the first check into room? And how did it come about?

First check was a guy named Richard Meadows, who's famous for eating only pizza for a year is a business Journalists and I have been trying to build sort of a framework for autodidact, sort of a secular religion, or like a learning cultist. We called it during the time where I was prototyping room stuff, and he actually came to retreat in Mumbai. And he's a writer and got interested in Seattle casting thing. And he played with a very early prototype that I had, and he was the first check into Rome, and he's a great friend and helped us, right. The white paper later, you know, a year and a half later helped us, right? The white paper maybe was actually only six months after invested, but yeah, he was a user of

the product. What a story. I do have to ask. When I say success, he's the first person that comes to your mind. Jesus Christ. I was gonna ask why, but I think it's probably fairly obvious on that one. Okay, hit me. This is the toughest of all next five years for you and for Rome. Actually, there was an interesting one that was post on Twitter. When you think about the most ambitious vision possible for Rome, what would that ambitious vision be

for us? I don't know whether five years is distractible for this, but when I think about the long term vision, it's some kid in Somaliland or Turkmenistan or wherever is able to, without ever going to a school, learn all the things that they need to learn and reach a point where they can actually win a Nobel Prize or a Fields medal. Or in a less ambitious thing, you get a job, whatever the Space X is of that time, just on the merits of what they have contributed to the global knowledge graph and have a replacement for the existing institutional financial system than that. But I think short term, I think the way that we do peer review research is fundamentally completely broken, the way that we store the accumulation of all of our civilizations. Knowledge in pdf that air hosted by L. Severe is just wrong, and so that's in terms of long term ambition. I wanna make it possible for people to chart an efficient path to the frontiers of knowledge and then push that frontier

further. Connor. As I said, I've been such a Fanboy, the product for a while now. As I said, it stretches all of my force and allows me to keep friends. But also put my arguments across. So thank you so much for leaving my social network. And I have so enjoyed

this. This has been fantastic. You're exactly the kind of person who we you're talking tons of brilliant people and the fact that you're able toe reuse that knowledge and use it to push thinking further your perfect user. So I'm very thrilled to hear that you've been

using it. I have to say, I did just love that discussion with Connor, and I just couldn't be more excited for the time ahead with Rome research in If you'd like to see more from corner, which is a must, you can find him on Twitter at con or as C E o N A. W Likewise would be great to welcome you behind the scenes here. You can do so on Instagram and H W 1996 with TBS. I do love to see that, but before you leave you today, I'm sure you've heard about it. But my word. I just love this product. Carter Carter simplifies how start ups and investors managed equity camp tables and get valuations. Go to carter dot com forward slash 20 V C to get 10% off. More than 800,000 employees and shareholders use Carter to manage hundreds of billions of dollars inequity. And Carter now offers fund administration so you can see real time data in the Carter platform and work with Carter's team of experienced fund accountants.

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