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What is going on? Everybody back for another episode of the visual revolutionary podcast Money was Rick Stovall. As always, if you're a new listener, this is show where I get a chance to sit down with some of the world's leading photographers, filmmakers, another visual artists and hear about the journey that shaped him into the person they are today and how they established their career. Make sure to check out the show at visual revolutionary dot com. You can listen there but subscribed wherever you get your podcast. Follow on Instagram at visual Revolutionary. It's a good place to keep up with the show and when they're released and finally you can send me emails on the website D M E on instagram Facebook. People recommend guest all the time or just say, what up? I think that's it. A lead off by saying, I think I'm fighting a little cold some extra raspy today. So bear with scratching this.

Not that it's ever crystal clear, but you know, I get self conscious about it sometimes. Today on the show. Christopher Michael. Interesting story. Several careers this guy's gone through from the Navy to the Pentagon to Harvard Business School, to the life of an entrepreneur with multiple businesses to finally deciding he was going to do what he was most passionate about, which was the set out, and create pictures that matter as a photographer. That's a lofty goal, especially after having success in the business world to then step out on a limb and say, Not only do I want to travel and shoot, I want to make a difference. I want to make pictures that people remember. I respect his decision.

He's got a beautiful body of work. Check him out. He's at Chris. Underscore Michael with the e l m I c H e l on instagram just been all over the world and some extreme environments from Antarctica to the edge of space. He's really covered a lot of ground. You can really see just his passion for shooting, whether it's ST portraiture, lands, gape people all over the world, and I really respect how much he loves it. And, you know, we talk about that. The idea of whether or not so much of that passion comes from having previous careers and maybe stepping into the one that that he was the most passionate about the interesting conversation and a different approach. I think into the world of photography as a business and a lifestyle he's teaching to withstand, if a workshops getting respect from some well named peers in the world of photography.

And so it was a slight shift of a lot of the normal story, sometimes here where people were kind of laser focused on photography the whole time. Christopher's got a very positive attitude about photography, about creativity, about happiness. We definitely agree on a lot of things. A CE for us. The present moment is concerned. And so I appreciated his outlook on the way he goes about creating an image that he feels stands the test of time. So I think that's where I'll leave it. I'll take you right to my conversation with Christopher Michael, Christopher Michael. Thanks for doing the show, man. I'm excited to talk to you. I think What's so cool about your story?

I mean, obviously you've got the photography element going on, you know, your world traveler doing some great work published with a lot of people that your publications that people are familiar with but You know what I think you bring to the table. Unlike a lot of people. Is this business background, you know, from entrepreneurs and venture capitalists to photographer. And

you forgot an important

one? Well, yes. Navy Pilot,

right? Enabled white

out here, right? And so which I want, you know, on a backtrack and obviously tell your whole story. I just think it's cool to kind of really, You know, I think as creative's one of the biggest thing we're missing so often is that business component and really understanding kind of, you know how to move forward in the world of business and contacts. And so I really love that you you bring so much of that to the table and you add it to that creative field. Plus, I can't tell you how many times I get emails from people saying, you know, I'm in So until a job and I've always dreamed of being a photographer, I love photography, you know? How do I move forward? And you also bring that to the table?

You know, you know, if I were to be self reflective, I wouldn't give myself the highest marks for making money and photography because that's not really my objective, right? I would say the part of the story that's sort of interesting to me is this is really my third or fourth career, depending how you look at it, right, and, you know, we're not optimizing my view. I guess we're not optimizing for a particular job in our lives. We're optimizing for good life. Yeah, this is my, you know, as I said, my third career and it's probably my hardest one yet. Being a photographer is tough business, not your companies. Was a lot easier.

Hey, had I'm sure it wasn't a decision you made to make more money than

you are. Yeah, that's tricky. That's tricky business, really. T meet a lot of photographers that have been doing it for a long time and that struggle because the industry has changed for them. And so it's important, You know, I think that continue to stay positive in this industry despite the difficulties in the commodification of imagery.

Totally agree. It's something that comes up on this show all the time. You know, it's something I'm always working through myself, you know, I'm in that kind of sweet spot. I'm in my forties, and so, you know, I definitely came up. Relations. I Well, I came up in a in, ah, totally different world of photography. You know that it is now, and I'm with you.

I think I'm not saying it's a negative thing. It it is what it is. And it holds a ton of positivity in what's happening today. But it has changed a lot of things, and it's definitely changed a lot. A lot of veterans pay grade, you know, if they can't figure out how to adapt. I think, too, the current trajectory of social media of digital content of kind of putting many hats on from video to photo tow, whatever you can do to make yourself stand out these days. Absolutely. Let's let's just jump back into your story because it, like you, said,

you got like, three definitely distinct pass, it seems. But you know, in the midst of all that, a lot of different kind of turns and and I'm sure, peaks and valleys of the of the life. Where did you actually

grow up? It's a tricky question. My father is half Greek and half British, okay, so I and My mother is a Danish American. Eso I grew up in Chicago and Connecticut on France and a little bit in Greece, and basically, I moved about eight or nine times as a kid. So I was always kind of the outsider and went to college at the University of Illinois on and then joined the Navy right after Top Gun. What's

so why? I mean, were you still living in Chicago? Is that why you went to Illinois?

Or it is? Yeah, I did. I mean, although I was, you know, in my youth was sort of time with the advent of the personal computer when I was a computer nerd. So I basically, you know, when you're the outsider and you don't fit in, you know, your computer concert to be your friend. And so I spent a lot of time learning to program, and in Illinois is the National Center for Supercomputing Applications. So it seemed like a good place to go to school. And when I went there, I actually when I joined the Navy,

I became interested in national security. And instead of studying computer science, I studied political science. Actually, Soviet studies and the year I graduated the Sylvie and fell apart. So my political science degree became a history degree. And then I went to flight school, and my job was hunting Soviet

submarines. Right. What would lead you to the Navy in the first place? You know what made an outsider kid? Can I seek that route?

Well, I think there's a couple things. One is As I said, Top gun was kind of inspiring

for sure, you and me, but,

uh, the second thing was, I thought I wanted to be in politics, and, um, you know, I thought serving my country be a good thing to do. So I signed up in Roxy, and I really liked it. It was a place where I felt like I could belong. Andi, I had a great time. I couldn't have had more fun in the Navy. And then I flew, flew, and then I worked in the Pentagon for a couple years before going to business school.

Yeah, I saw that. What was your dad doing that had you guys moving around so much?

Um, well, I have to, Father. So my mother and father, my mother and Greek father divorced when I was year old. Okay? We re so she came to America, and then she married a Frenchman. So we lived in France, and he moved around a lot. He was like a chemist. Another lots of different jobs. Yeah, totally. I think it definitively changed who I am. In fact,

I just I do like presentations on my photography, like a lot of photographers do. And I often start off with pictures of me in school. And, you know, you could just see that I was that outsider nerd kid. Anyway, you know, a lot of photographers are kind of outsiders, and they they observed the world. And I think that's certainly one of the reasons I was drawn to photography.

Totally agree. And just the fact that you said, you know, you had moved around so much, you know, as a young person, it makes sense of kind of what you decided to do later on toe to start moving around again. I mean, did that seem like it was always in your DNA? Teoh want to be a live, right?

Yeah, Probably was. And, you know, my mother is an artist, and her father was a fairly well known painter. He was a professor at the University of Michigan and painted that one of the murals in the white tower. So I come from a kind of artistic family, huh? So, you know, I mean, in a sense, I think I'm a very good example of a product of my genetics and environment. So I I'm happiest in faraway places. Captured stories.

I know you talked about fun in the computer at an early age and that that being a friend, but, like, were you outside of that? Were you doing any kind of artwork?

Not really. I mean, I think my our creativity is a kid was mostly about programming, for sure. So, um, you know, well, And in 1980 you know, you had a TRS 80 or a Sinclair or early apple. You know, there was there was some creativity to be had and programming. So and it turned out that would serve me well later on when I started some Internet companies.

Yeah, it makes sense, you know, to hear that just from what I know of your bio, you go to University, Illinois. Go. You join the navy while you're in Illinois. were you like an ROTC program?

I was in ROTC, and then I graduated and drove to Pensacola, Florida got issued a flight jacket and that this is the greatest job in the entire world, which it kind of

is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's got some sex appeal. My dad's a pilot. He was a pilot in Vietnam. And

what service

he was in the Army. He flew spotter planes. Will says the planes, you know?

Well, it's a pretty you know, I'd say it's pretty funny. In a lot of times, people say to me, they're surprised I was in the Navy and And why did I join the Navy? You know, I live in San Francisco, so I think a lot of people think maybe they're not negative towards the military, but I think they think the military might be a good option for people with few options. And, you know, I started the largest community of military people on the Internet, and I can say with some certainty that that's an incorrect view. I mean, that may be true for some people that it is a good place to go if you don't have a lot of good options, but it's also a great place for a lot of other people because you have some great experiences in your life,

you know? And I think that's part of my theme Is that you know, memories of the currency of our lives. So when you I mean going to Vietnam is not something that everyone wants to do. But a lot of people that went there came back with some very interesting experiences, and it wasn't altogether negative for them. And my experience in the military, fortunately, didn't have to hurt anyone was really altogether positive Marines. I still see the guys from my squadron, and we still laugh and have a good time. And we did really cool stuff. I'm not saying working at Goldman Sachs isn't really cool, but I think I was having a lot more fun

for sure. Yeah, completely. I mean, like you said, it's you know it. It's a crapshoot on how it can work out. Sometimes you know, it's what she's depending on, what war were in the midst up, But, um, so during that how long were you in the Navy?

Let's see. I was in Rossi for four years and then active duty for seven years. So my last two years were working in the Pentagon, is an admiral's aide, And then I was in the reserves for four or five years, so I don't know. That's 14 years, maybe. Sure. So, kind of a long time. Yeah. I mean, by went by in, like, two seconds

during that time in the Pentagon is Did you still kind of have that idea like this is all gonna lead up to a political career?

Well, that's a great question. So I One of the reasons I went to Washington was because I thought, Well, this would be a good starting point for that career and and being exposed to Washington, you know, didn't leave me with an interest in running for political office, you know, You see it as it really is. It's kind of like when you're younger, you have these idealistic views of lots of jobs. A lot of people come lawyers, you know, they think they know what that job is like. They probably don't write on just like politicians. You know, I actually thought that maybe working in Washington was a good way to become a elected official.

Turns out, as you probably know, it's not really the best way is to be a successful business person or whatever and then run for office. But you also see it's a It's a job of compromise, and it's a job where the truth is less important than support of the party or supportive of your own candidacy. And, you know, that's that's not the life I wanted to live. Sure it's you. It's, you know, I'm hoping that this bad experience in Washington will lead to more good people running and that kind of change in how we think about people serving.

It seems like that could be the positive outcome that it turns. A lot of young people toe really want to do something to make a change.

Yeah, I hope so, and I hope it becomes less about your party and more about what's good for the country.

Yeah, let's go. We've got to figure that. I mean, that's that's what's broken the most. You know, it's just think so divided and so polarized right now that it's just it's broken.

Yeah, I want to see people agreeing. I'm voting for people that kind of agree, and they say that's a good idea. And I don't care where it came

from completely. So you go into the reserves like during that time in the reserves? Is that when you moved to California are winded that

after business school. And, um, I want it. Well, in fact, the story is, if you'd asked me what I wanted to do when I showed up in Harvard Business School, which I went thio, uh, kind of a surprise because I had zero interest in business zero.

Yeah, Looks Yeah, well, tell that story anyway, because I wasn't sure how to get there. So, like it mean for you already alluded to it. You went to Harvard Business School. You know, that's Ah, that's definitely another metal on your jackets, you know, like

it's a good question. And you know, when I think about people listening to this podcast, whoever's listening, you know, this isn't I mean, I think people listen for things that are relevant to that, you know? So it's maybe less about my story. Maybe my story just would be maybe some clues as to some things that they may want to consider, and I think there is a lesson in me ending up in Harvard Business School and ah, kind of share it because I think it's an important lesson. I wasn't interested in business, and I was The Navy was gonna send me to the John F. Kennedy School at Harvard. So as a state college person going to Harvard seem beyond my reach. And so they had the opportunity to go there.

I thought this would be great, and I basically randomly ran into a Navy person who said, You shouldn't go to the Kennedy School for an MP A, which is a master's in public administration. You should go to the business school. They love Navy people, and you can turn that degree into whatever you want. Unlike a political science degree, which is a little bored limiting, and I just hadn't really considered it. Andi. I applied, unfortunately, got in, and if you had asked me what it is that I was qualified to do, what I would have told you waas about something to do with aviation or something to do with operations because I was in the military so basic in my view of what I should do with my life was based on the limited set of experiences that I had.

So that's a That's a dangerous approach. You know, it's something worth considering, which is sometimes we can't evaluate what's not directly on the menu in front of us. Right? So I shut the business school, and basically, I went to one of the classes one day and it was an entrepreneur speaking. And this guy, you know, you don't know when your life is gonna be changed. And this guy changed my life on DDE in 1980 he had gone to M i t. And then he had gone to Harvard Business School in 1988. Think of 1979. He was taking an accounting class at Harvard. And by that,

he didn't look like anyone else that came to Harvard Business School. Now, they probably all look like him, but back. Sure. Uh, was wearing you. It was looking a lot like, you know, get a flannel shirt on you. I'm

sure you have some flannel shirts. I'm right on

a couple. Yeah, he was one of flannel shirt, big beer. And, you know, he was maybe in his forties or fifties and he'd taken an accounting class and he didn't like the way they did. Accounting the technology they used to do. Accounting in 1979. So he invented the first spreadsheet. Do you know you know the name of that company or what? The product. Waas. Any idea what's the first Frenchy is before

Excel? I don't even know how I'm the worst of spreadsheets.

Okay, well, the one most people answer is a lotus.

Oh, yeah, sure. Lotus

Lotus 1 to 3. But there was actually a product before that. That load is put out of business and was called Visit Talc 19 e. The reason you've bought a personal computer probably was because you wanted a word star, which is the word processor you wanted visit talc or you wanted the adventure game. Those were like the three. You know, the three vintage

things that you see. I only wanted the adventure game. That's why I couldn't answer your question. But,

well, you know, these are called killer app. So you want a device that has killer APS? Because, you know, what's the purpose of ah phone if it doesn't have WhatsApp Facebook or what? All right, So basically this guy creates this company to do. Spreadsheet invents the idea of Frenchies and he gets put out of business. But he tells the class, He said, You know, I look back on my life and I realized I created something that was important. So it wasn't about the money that I made. It was about creating something that didn't exist before. He said If I called Bill Gates,

he returns my call and I thought to myself, Holy cow, this is the life I want to live. I want to be an entrepreneur And that was a determined Today we we use the term entrepreneur all the time. You know, we have icons like Mark Zuckerberg, but in 1996 or 90 97 when I was in business, school and ownership was certainly a thing. But it wasn't a thing like it is today where everyone thought they could go do it right. Then I committed my life, Thio starting a company and I started a company of business school which helped start a company. This is Coach failed and I came out to California to seek my fortune. Yeah, unfortunately, I was working at a consulting firm. But in,

um 1999 I had the idea for military dot com when I got the idea because I was a reserve drill weekend and people were saying, Hey, did you know this guy in this squadron? You know, people are also complaining about getting access to their benefit. So I thought, well, the Internet would be a great way to connect, enabling a power of the military. So basically, what we created a military was the first Facebook. This is a well before Facebook was five years before Facebook, and it was a social network for military people. That was my big mistake. I just brought it out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could have beat suck to it.

But, I mean, I'm proud to say that there's a lot of stories in that company, and it was very, very difficult. But the company is still around today still serving millions of military people. So,

yeah, I saw that once again when I was, you know, looking you up on doing some research I saw Still definitely ah, valid company.

Yeah. I mean, it's pretty good to build an Internet company. And 20 years later, it's still doing its thing

completely. Sure, especially one of the early ones like that. You know, it's rare to see them still still operating

well, it's because the military is a real community with real needs

for sure. So take it from there. Then you know, you developed this military dot com living in and where San Francisco Silicon Valley area

and we raised. You know, there's a lot to the story, but we raise quite a lot of money for the company. And in 2000 in March of 2000 the bubble burst and basically we're burning like a $1,000,000 a month on the company almost failed, and I got fired is the CEO and, um, you know, the company was about to be shut down. I came back. That basically shut the company down, and we were able to turn around the company. And then I sold the company to monster, huh? And then I had this idea, like, Well,

if it worked for the military, maybe it could work for nurses and teachers and police officers and government workers. I created another company called Affinity Labs, and that was a lot easier. I didn't make all the mistakes that I've made in my first company. We sold that company, and in 2008 I asked myself, What is it I really wanted to do with my life? And I've been taking photographs for probably, you know, maybe us. 10 years before that, I thought that What? You really want to pursue the life of an adventure photographer? That's

that's where it all begins. That that part of the story? Well, 11 years ago back it, back it up to, like, where you even found the camera. You know, how is that introduced to you in the first place? It was it Just something you were kind of carrying around and you're in your navy days are

a boy. You know that? As I said, the kind of theme of my life is that memories of the currency of our lives and I just gave this presentation. I was looking for the first photo I can remember taking. It was Tokyo in 1987 and I have just a few photographs from some throwaway point and shoot. And I never took any other photographs until probably 1990 seven or 90. 98 it's really a shame because all of that exciting stuff I did in the military hunting drug runners living in Central America looking for Russian submarines. All of that is the only memories are the only record of my memories, and it would have been an amazing, amazing archive. But when I was driving across country, my girlfriend at the time gave me a Kodak Advantix camera. Remember that camera?

Yeah, I do.

It's a pretty weird camera. Had a Kodak bet its future on this camera. It was a film that allowed three different sizes, depending on the setting. And we stopped off the Glacier National Park and I took a bunch of photos. And, you know, I look at those photos today and they're really bad. Wow, are they terrible? But a few of them were kind of good. And then I when I started my company, my VP of engineering a guy named Salim AJ hey was a photographer and he had a cannon one d, and I said, Well, you're an idiot for spending that much money on that can't run. I tried it out of them by Bachmann on DDE.

You know, I think part of it is you take some photographs and you get some people commenting and liking your photographs and thinking they're pretty good. And then you start to feel pretty good about your photographs, and that's a cycle of kind of passion and obsession. You know, I'm not bored at all with it. So every day I carry my camera. Every day I take pictures, and every day I hope today's the day I get the picture that I really love.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, And I mean, I think you make a good point about just that validation because it's something usually there's somewhere along the line, especially for someone like yourself that just decides. You know, what I really want to do is, you know, is this surely somewhere along the line there you were getting some validation that that made you think that that might even be a possibility.

Yeah, I went on a trip. I remember. I think I went to India or something, and the my photograph became like, won the contest for the travel company, and I was like, Wow, this is interesting. And then they're like, we'd like to send you on trips for free to take photographs. And I'm like, Well, this is interesting And then, you know, kind of like just started from that. You know,

I never like one thing that I I sort of regret not doing this, but I never really, like hustled to push my work. I was always looking to have people find my work and like it and give me opportunities. I do feel, I mean, I would not suggest my approach for anyone else. In fact, I would give myself kind of Lois Marks because I think I could be doing a lot more interesting things if I hustled a little bit more. But it just isn't my style. So I kind of like it when people just asked me to do stuff.

Yeah, man. And look, you, you you made money first. I mean, that's the big difference. Sometimes, you know, it's not to take away from your passion and motivation, but there's the people that come up in, like as you starve while you're doing it. You either. You either quit quickly, which I watched all kinds of people. D'oh! Or you just keep sticking it out. And I think that's that that's that hustle. And,

yeah, you're totally right. And in fact, I would say, it's kind of, um, it's probably my number. One problem is a photographer, because in a way, you know, my cos I didn't tell you how bad the first company waas but it was, you know, they wrote a whole book. Somebody wrote A whole book about me is a CEO, and you know, it's all positive. And but,

you know, the genius of Silicon Valley or the genius of the tech world with Start Up World is people I have no all Dominicans cases. They have no alternatives but to make their companies work. And, you know, when your life depends on making something work, it's amazing what can get done. And this is true with creatives to when you you have to survive as a photographer or survivors, a musician or survivors, whatever it is, and you don't have an alternative, it's amazing what you can do. It really is. And, uh, you know, that's a real positive. I mean, it's not easy, but it's a policy.

I mean, it's something I know I've told it before on this show, but you know, as I was struggling coming up. My wife got pregnant with our first child and I just saw the writing on the wall. You know, like I've got nine months before I'm working some job I hate, and it just changed everything. I mean, I became a the ultimate hustler in nine months later, my whole career was different. Is crazy.

Yeah, well, that's very It's very interesting, you know, and I think that that's why a lot of big companies can innovate because it's so hard. And when things become hard at a big company, they just stopped doing it. When they become hard for somebody whose life depends on it, they just work harder, you know?

Yeah, that's a good point, you know? I mean, I think that's what so much of the creative field has going for. It is, you know, it's these individuals kind of striving forward. Not that it's, I mean, obviously, that exists in business across the world and in Silicon Valley. But you're right. When you know the more people you bring in, it becomes harder and harder to push forward a a singular vision of like how it works. You know, everybody, especially if it's failing, everybody starts kind of arguing on how to fix it. And it it just falls apart sometimes.

Yeah, totally. What's on my challenge every day is to continue to do the best work that I can. And, you know, I'm acutely aware of how many incredibly good photographers that are out there. And, you know, I have a kind of an abundance mindset, which is why I'm friends with them and I want to support them. But I also, um, you know, recognizes the bar is very, very high to play as a professional photographer. And, you know, I work at it every day, and it's tough work.

Totally three credit. I will give you that. I see just, you know, going through your feet and your website and everything. Is that you? You know, that passion that you talked about? You can see it because you're you're shooting on the street. You're shooting travel, you're shooting landscape. You know, you can I can tell just by looking through your stuff that you're very passionate about taking photos. Um, and in that abundance mindset that you're talking about, I think comes through and what you're doing

and that's really one of the finest. The most fun parts about being a photographer is the community of other creatives. And, you know, we all support each other, and I like I like that a lot. I mean, I met photographers, they don't have that view, and I feel badly for them because I don't think it's a productive way to live. But it's rare. I find almost in all cases, people are supportive and want to help each other. And, you know, we're all in it together on, uh, that's that's a better

way to live. And it's something that I've seen. It just it seems to be so much better. You know, Even when I was coming in and late nineties, early two thousands were still it was felt really guarded, you know, as I would tried. I mean, I was lucky enough to definitely have some mentors, and some people help me out with knowledge here and there. But it felt way more guarded than it is now, and I feel like it really has become a open community or a much more open community. Doing this show has really changed me in a lot of ways. of, you know, just being inspired by other people's success and their stories instead of being having some secret jealousy or, you know, that competitive nature just being like, Well, why not me?

Yeah, well, you're you know, you're very fortunate in the sense that you have created a platform to get to engage them with the people that you are interested in. And you probably learned

a lot o time. It's that time. Yeah,

definitely. It's pretty cool. You know, I started one of the big changes for me, and photography happened. Well, it started about five years ago where a friend of mine kind of tricked me into taking a photo class. I've never taken a lot of you. Did you study photography? I

did not study photography. I mean, since the you know, since my humble beginnings, I have taking classes and assisting undone stuff. But no, I did not study photography

coming up. Yeah, so I basically never took a photo class, and I thought I was pretty good and that somebody tripped me to take a class of Santa Fe photographic workshops with this guy. Kurt Marcus was a pretty famous fashion photographer. And Norman Moskow, a great documentarian. These guys, I don't think they've ever shot digital, and I went into this class and it was a transformational experience for me to spend time with people who have dedicated their lives to film, photography and the old fashioned world, and just to see how they approach the craft. And I learned alive. And now I teach at the workshops, and that's been a big evolutionary step for me. And I see this with a lot of photographers, some photographers they're teaching because it's another source of income for them,

which is fine. But I think this is the higher order way to get back, which is to help inspire other people to enjoy photography the way that you do, and that for a lot of people who might be listening, who are interested in, maybe aren't photographers or want to get better. That place is interesting because all the world but many of the world's best photographers air teaching there and so you could take a class and I've taken classes with some of the best photographers in the world, and it's pretty interesting. One of those guys, in fact, really became a mentor of mine and informed of my photography, a guy named San Able who is at the National Geographic for like, 35 years. And you know he's not a photographer, He's a philosopher. That digs measures, you know, and you get into the heads of these guys and you realize that there's a bigger game and play that's a lot broader than just composition and exposure, you know

for sure. I mean, what do you think? Like Take Sam, for example, What do you think about his story? And his philosophy is really stuck with you and kind of changed the way you approach photography looked at photography.

Well, I I it's gonna glad you brought that up. And in fact, I'm kind of embarrassed when I teach my class because I'm now a Sam able disciple because it's a good disciple week. You ever you ever meet someone where you're like I want 100% agree with your approach, and his approach is basically to make the best photograph you can every time you pick up the camera. And that's a very interesting idea. Towns obvious at first, but basically he uses, you know, all the techniques that he hasnt. We could talk about some of them, if that's interesting to you, but I always make the best way to replicate. That doesn't mean that he's making a great photograph every time. He just thinks he's using a kind of discipline in the use of the camera and his engagement in the scene to solve the puzzle of the best possible image he can every time he shoots. Why that's so compelling is that you can't always control all the elements of the scene,

but sometimes the world will conspire in your favor. And if you're using all the right techniques, you will get a great photograph. In fact, I only want a photograph in my home from another photographer and at Sam Abel's photograph. Its habits enables castration picture, and it's It's two of five right in front of me, and it is one of the most beautifully composed, perfectly put together photographs. And that photograph doesn't just happen that have happened because he is tuned into composition, toe micro compositions, white movements. He's paying attention to the edges of the photograph. It's built into his brain, and in fact he does very little. Plus processing doesn't crop.

You mean that's personal? Partially because he was a National Geographic for so long. But in a sense, he What he told me is he doesn't wantto have any other things happening in his brain other than to solve for those particular points in the equation. Because if you think, oh, I can fix that in post or I'll just get rid of that, you know, you start to get sloppy and your photography, so that approach to always making the best photograph you can is been a transformational experience for me. And, you know, my photographs are that much better because of it, and I think it's something we can all do, even if you're just using an iPhone, you know,

rather than take 50 pictures, just slow down and take. Take the one or two photos, but visualize the picture you want and make it happen. You can always make it all work, but you can make it work a lot of the time. So simple stuff. What I'd recommend a lot of people if you're interested in Sam, is he has a bee in a video YouTube on dhe. It's an hour long, it's it's something you should see

for sure. I love that. You said, you know that because I was just about to jump in and say, slow down Because, you know, I think that to me, that was always the one kind of negative aspect. I thought Digital brought to the table was it's bad things up a little bit where you know, coming from film. And you only had so many exposures. You know, it taught Yuto I mean, mostly, just cause you were a broke photographer tell you to be picky about what you were going to shoot, and it slowed down the process. And because I came from that Not that I don't have times where I'm blasting off digital frames,

I think we all do. But when I'm doing it right, it's very much a meditation. And it's very, you know, it's people get sick of me talking about meditation. But, you know, like I'm a big practitioner and I'm a big, mindfulness guy. And when photography's done right, it is a very mindful approach, You know, you're if you're not in the present moment, most likely you're not gonna take good pictures, you know?

Where is it you can sink in and slow down like you said, And really ask yourself, Why am I composing it this way, or why am I taking this picture in the first place? I think that's the That's where it becomes. Ah, really art form?

Yeah, it's interesting, you know, there's a specific nuance to what you're talking about, and I think most people are thinking it's just about frame rate. And I actually think it's mostly about forethought and the image. I actually care less if you take 20 pictures in a row or not. But I do care whether you thought about what it is, what photo it is that you want, you know? I mean, it's like it's kind of like the scene. I'm looking at this picture of this castration, and it's like, you know, two people on horseback, somebody carrying a bucket.

This guy's got a scalpel in his mouth, You know, I'm sure that there was like a film, but I'm sure that there's, like, 10 pictures here. I mean, this is the one. I mean, he got the sadness the scene set up, and he shot through that scene and you've selected the photograph that work. That's fine, I think. But what isn't fine or what is not helpful to people is just to pull the camera and just start shooting. Yeah, by the way,

I'm with you. You know, I had the opportunity to be the Dalai Lama's photographer for three days. That's all that. It's a cool experience, and I've become a Buddhist. Not only because of that, just because I believe in that philosophy and I do meditate. So you know, I think all of these things are related.

Oh, completely agree. They're totally related. I've been a student of then for many years, and

you only should expired 120 film.

That's right, that's that. No, you know, like I said, it just helps me. And it's not that I always succeed in doing it this way because there's plenty of times that I fail at my own message miserably. But like I said, when when I feel like I'm doing it right, it's because I've really sunk in to the present moment of what I'm looking at and how I'm approaching it. And I'm not trying to hurry it up, you know, even on you know me, I shoot a lot of commercial work, and I have eighties and people standing around and I'm shooting tether, but I still take my time.

Yeah. Yeah, I am. Uh, um does this guy Watson Do you know him? Albert Watson?

Oh, of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah.

So, uh, you know, when I said Santa has a lot of people?

Yeah, he's one of them.

And he picked his students, and I was looking to be one of his students. And so they're 10 students and none of a shot. And we just watched him, and he was like, you know, it was like, three hours of set up in one photograph, you know, and he's the guy who manipulate the hell out of the photograph. He's like, I got two Japanese guys. They need my post all the time. He's looking at my butt. Itches like stretch it out, delete these things. You know,

Sam Animal would, like, lose his mind. Those two guys in the same room would explode into pieces of brilliance. Anyway, I mostly you know, it's funny. All those guys are watching Albert, and all I'm doing is taking photographs of all because that's my interest is these characters in their environment?

Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, let's back, Let's back up a bit. You know, because you talked about, you know, you sold the companies and you ask yourself like what I really want to be doing. And e I want to travel and take pictures. You said that was, like, 2007 right to those in a 2008. Um, talk about

how it wasn't traveling, take pictures. It was to become a photographer that mattered and created work that was meaningful, which is a big, old, higher, higher

bar. That's true. Yeah, that's I'm sorry. I've set the bar so low because it is a high bar. We'll talk about kind of how you took the first steps towards that. Because, like you, I mean, is faras your travels go. I mean, we're talking Antarctica, India, to the edge of space. You know, it's like you've definitely succeeded in just shooting all over the world. But talk about those early days of faras. Like the way you went about trying to accomplish that goal of taking pictures that matter.

Um, well, to some extent, A. There's probably a variety of projects that are kind of coincidence. A one project that's coincident is that I'm lucky to be in a community of people. They're creating lots of things. So it could be like Reid Hoffman accorded linked in It Could be, you know, lots of CEOs of companies, the sea of Dale Carnegie, whatever all these places were, I happen to be. And so for 20 years I've been photographing all of these entrepreneurs. So when they first started their companies to where they are today and that's Ah, that's an important historic kind of work. But those photographs were being what mainly used in business grass or in books.

But if you look at Wikipedia, I don't know. I mean, there's probably photographers that have Maur Wikipedia profile pictures than I do, but maybe not so many, because I give away a lot of those photographs to. So if you look up a lot of people, or if you look under the bios of lots of magazine articles, I know it's every day that a major publications using a bunch of those photographs. So that's one category of things. Second category of thing is to go thio unusual places and observed humans in extreme environments, eh? So I went to Antarctica in Antarctica seven times and, you know, now I get sent. I mean,

I go to the South Pole with, you know, Robert Swan, the first person to walk to both poles that Mount Vinson shooting Leo holding one of the great climbers of our era. You know, I'm with some of the people, do the best work in the world in extreme places and photographing them on. And, you know, I guess it's sort of a step function. I signed up for Ripped to go to Antarctica, and that led me eight years later to being sent by the Onley outfitter That can take you to the pole in the Vincent. You know, I signed up to go to the North Pole, and I was just with the sky Sigi on the Aurora shooting in Greenland because he needed photographs. So I guess it started.

It started with me investing in creating work that people could see would be helpful to them. And, um, you know, now I get to go on these cool adventures. You know, the Air Force said, Hey, we love to fly you in a YouTube, you know, spy plane and put a spacesuit on his, You know, if they're for us. So I think that's you know, that's what that's The progression of a photographer is that people, if you're good people,

will eventually. I want your work. You know, Jimmy Chin, look at that guy's life. I just watch free solo. I'd be seeing that.

Yeah, yeah, it's incredible.

I made is crazy, but Jimmy has. I created a life for himself as a photographer where, you know, he's got his pick of projects and he can go and do anything he wants because people want him involved. And I am not, you know, hundreds of the way there, but he's a guide star. He's living a very adventurous life and meeting interesting people on helping tell their story. And I love that. I can't think of a better way to live life. Sure. You know,

I think what I'm curious about is you haven't had Jimmy on the show, but I've had he used to be with camphor collective, and I've had most of the guys on the show. Um and so, you know, I'm I'm curious. I'm like how you feel you know, like Jimmy went, you know, from, like, dirtbag to just slow, slow evolution. And I'm curious on, like, how you, you know,

you obviously you approached it differently. And like, if you could if you could do it all again I mean, it's probably nice going in with a little money in your I'm just curious, you know, because I don't know that I've ever trying to think like, on this show if I've ever had anyone that that came from some success and then switched a couple of things. It obviously speaks to your drive to want to be a good photographer, because it would be easy for you to go. You know what? I don't have to do this, you know, like, I've got other business ventures I'm involved in. So I'm not gonna try so hard on this, so that obviously speaks to like,

how much passion you have towards it. But like I said, I think, um, there's a lot of people out that mean a lot of people out there and a lot of people that listen to this show that are in in positions of jobs that there may be not that passionate about and they are passionate about photography. And I always feel like we'll make him both happen, you know? But I don't

Yeah, I think that that's a good point. You know, the nice thing about photography is I think you could do photography and other things in your life. I don't think that I don't think you have to just do one thing. And you know, we have examples of people that are out there that are doing it in me. You know, my friend pay catch on. She's made a life as a photographer, an influencer. She's doing stuff with the dhobi and catch like there's a small number of those jobs out there. But for many people, I think they could be well respected, successful photographers and also have other jobs. I think you know, to some extent,

it's kind of, you know, I have a quote that I like that's been meaningful to me, and it's happiness is reality, minus expectations, Right, So right. So if your expectations are like, my expectation was, I have to be Jimmy Chin or I need National Geographic calling me todo shoot. Uh, you know, I think kind of unhappy. It's a high bar. So I you know, I guess for a lot of people,

I think that they should feel good about being creative and working and having a job. I think that those things can go together, and I think that they shouldn't keep beating themselves up, that they need to be like Jimmy or someone else. It's kind of like these air. Almost unrealistic expectations for for almost everyone. One out of you know, five million people get to be Jimmy. I'm actually. Is there anyone like him? I mean, he's really at the top of that particular kind of game. You know, I have good friend Michael Clark was in a great adventure photographer and you'll get sponsored by on Chrome and a lot of people who teaches at the workshops and other places, and, you know, he's as good as it gets, and it's tough. So I guess I just hope for people to be happy every day in their lives and don't feel like they're not winning if they're not doing it full time or it's not enough to pay the bills.

So, you know, I like that you answer the question good and I like that and I and I would I would add on to what you just said by saying and but don't feel like But don't quit because it's not, you know, bringing you the Jimmy chin life, you know, like you should keep because it might

just the one. I don't even know what that life is like. I don't know, Jimmy. Yeah, One of the things, you know. Just make no assumptions about how other people's lives are better than yours and because, you know, they're often not there Often complicated lives, absolutely like our own lives are complicated. So I think that there's, you know, as I get older, I just turned 51. And as they get older, I guess one of my views about things is way kind of choose our own happiness.

Be happy in the moment with the things that would that I have a very simple life. I don't own a car. I'm not that successful. You know, I I tried to stay with a small footprint and try to do work that brings people joy. That's where that's my source of happiness. And, you know, it may not be the front page of National Geographic. But it might be a photograph that mattered to someone because they I love the person in the photograph where they now remember that person in that photograph, those photographs and at our a lot and all of us, the opportunity to do that kind of work, you know, just cause you're not paid by Nike. You know, a lot of photographers that are getting paid a lot of money by Nikki don't like that work.

So for those people here who are, you know, maybe professional photographers or maybe they're just passionate photographers, but they have other jobs. They may get to do more work of the work that they love. Then the guys that you know about, that our baby has to shoot, you know, stuff that they're not passionate, so they may actually be the winners.

You know, it's totally I mean, that's kind of with him. That's what I'm asking, you know, because look, I'm I've done okay for myself. But the deaf No question that some of the jobs that come and pay me the most money or the ones that I load you know, I'm not the least bit excited about him and, you know, I try. I go and I do the best job possible, and I tryto be happy in the moment of it. But, you know, I think so much. So much of this show has been I've talked about like that,

always looking for personal projects and trying to push yourself even when you do, if you are making money, sometimes that gets tagged and so that that search of always trying to also have personal projects and I think that's that is what I love. You know of what I see you doing it, You know, there's just it seems like at least on the outside, it seems like a huge personal project for you.

Yeah. I mean, I often times I'm shooting for someone, but my I guess my approach is to do work that I think matters move And, you know, maybe that's if having been an entrepreneur, you know, I came from very little and worked really, really hard and to be where I am. I mean, if there's any big advantage, it's that I don't want to do work that I don't that doesn't touch my heart, and that doesn't mean, it could be a commercial work, but it has to be something, you know. And I know that not everyone is lucky enough to be in that position.

Uh, and, you know, those are the people, the ones that have to really hustle doing that work, that they don't love their the ones that we admire the most, But also the ones that I feel I will have empathy for how hard that must be because, you know, Yeah, because you're you know, you're giving away your passion. I'm actually looking over your my class gave me a baby. This happened. I was teaching. And if you read this read because we're on a podcast, can you

see what it says? No. Let's get a glare on

it. But it's clear. Okay? It says it's a quote. It says the meaning of life is to find your gift. And the purpose of life is to give it away. It's Picasso like that. That's my

Yeah, I love it. Let me ask you, because we talked about two to extreme environments. Antarctica in the edge of space, you know, give us Ah, give us a little behind the scenes. Look at, You know, some of the challenges of shooting and those kind of extreme environments,

I guess. Yeah, well, mostly I should in extreme environments. And you know So it's 10 polar trips. It's underwater. I get a piece for outside magazine shooting whales. I'm heading to Sri Lanka shortly to shoot blue whales. Well, an Antarctic is a kind of good example. So I was there last January. I was there almost the whole month for Antarctic Logistics expeditions. So basically, you fly to Punta Arenas and you get kitted out and you get on a Russian built I'll 76 military plane and you land on the ice in the interior of Antarctica. This isn't like a normal and Dr Triple Your Careers. Yeah, exactly.

Center of continent. That's 1.5 times the size of United States. And I was given a tent and I had my drone and my cameras. And basically, almost every day I was on a little airplane flying someplace in Antarctica, shooting climbers. I'm not Vincent shooting the South Pole, and you know it's 24 hours of daylight on your work in, you know, 20 hour days, and it's exciting that It's not particularly scary except that the cold is a problem for photographers. And, you know, people talk of the batteries. Batteries to me are the big problem. Big problem of your fingers Exactly.

In fact, I did something very, very. I've done a lot of stupid things, this photographer, but I did something particularly stupid about in 60 miles on the pole. I'm shooting thes guys pulling sleds of the way to the pole, and I was flying the drone, and I couldn't fly the drum very easily with my gloves on. Took the gloves off and, you know, when you take your gloves off from 30 below weather, you're fine, actually, for a little while for a little while. When you when you start to realize that you're not fine,

you're really not. And the pilots of the DC three. There's a D. D. C three and skids that it brought me there. They came out of the cockpit and they brought a tarp and they wrap the tarp around as I was landing the drone and probably saved my fingers and they took off their own gloves and stuff. So, you know, people are watching out for each other on DDE. Photographers sometimes aren't paying attention to the things around them that could hurt them. Their attention camera on the scene. And that's got me in trouble quite a quite a few times. So that's kind of that's kind of the Antarctic experience.

Yeah, it's only what I mean. Are there times over? Where is, you know? Especially you. A tent in Antarctica where you think? I mean, I'm I'm in my fifties like, What am I doing out here?

Unlike am I in my fifties? I feel it coming.

20. There you

go. That's good. I do feel that, actually, I don't I don't think of myself as being in my fifties. It seems a little, uh, well, you know, I mean, it's it's kind of my my talk is all these themes in my talk on one of them is always say yes to adventure. So I find something weirdo situations like every week. Like I was asked to shoot at Pelican Bay, a maximum security prison, only that I shoot in a maximum security prison. I went inside the special housing unit, which is like solitary,

so I was wearing a bulletproof vest hanging out with people that have murdered people photographing them. And, you know, I was thinking, you know, occasionally that inner voice client, this is really an unusual experience and, you know, it was it. It was a one of the most powerful and transformational experiences I've ever had. I left with a lot of Well, I wouldn't say admiration for these people, but I guess I would say a lot more respect for them on empathy. And, you know, I seek those moments out all the times I've always looked for places to tell tricky stories. So if anyone's listening and they need a photographer to go someplace unusual on your person,

you know the guy

always say yes. So even if it's crazy, scary I mean, I've had, like, lots of weird stuff happened. I've seen bad things happen around me. That's about me.

Do you think you think he just keeps life more interesting for you? I mean, especially like, you know, I think what, once again, what I like about the story is I don't know. And maybe I'm just Maybe I'm reaching, you know, but that the idea that you had these two careers first and So, you know, I think your story goes two ways. It either is what I was asking. The person sitting in a tent going. Well, tell him I doing out here. I was doing okay in the business world,

or it's the person saying, Yeah, no, I left all that because this is what I love the most. And it brings, like, true experience to my

life. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, you could look at my story a lot of ways. So what headline could be successful? Tech entrepreneur becomes photo dilettante. So that's the negative view. The positive view is, you know, I've reinvented myself three times on every one of these cases. I'm working as hard as I can to do the best job I can. And it was difficult in the Navy was super difficult. It's an entrepreneur, and this is the most difficult, all of them. And, you know, I give myself a B. I'm hoping for a name next term.

Do you have? I mean, what do you say to people that bump up against that fear of the unknown, you know, and especially if you're in any, maybe with the business thing like you. You had some stuff. Push you a bit. But like if you're doing good, it's easy to be comfortable there. And it gets really scary to think How do Ah, how do I go this way? Even though I'm good here, that makes sense. You know, like, what do you say to that?

With people saying, you know, I don't know. I've got kids, you know? I'm scared to try to switch careers right now.

Well, you know, I can relate. I can relate. And I just have a lot of appreciation for for a lot of people, I think we're We've moved into a part of our society where we're tryingto over optimize. It's like we want a life hack all the time. We wanna live that kind of ideal instagram wife. And I don't know. I mean, I guess you know the the PAD answer is, you know, not making that decision or not making that leap is probably the greatest risk. But there's another view and I think it's again back to the kind of Buddhist view which is just to kind of have appreciation for the simple things in your life. And, um, I don't know.

I You know, having a family is a great responsibility and a great joy, and it's something I don't have. I work, I take photographs, so maybe it's a little easier for me. I'm happiest in faraway places alone. So, you know, I live a different kind of life than somebody that's in that situation. I guess I just don't want them tow. Have a single day where they feel unhappy or discontented. Um, you know, pick up a camera and go get on a bus and go someplace you haven't been to take some photographs, you know,

going to go meet somebody you don't know that's living a different kind of life. There is great work to be done, you know? And in the bigger picture. Honestly, the best work is probably somebody who goes out of their comfort zone and gets no people that they wouldn't ordinarily, No. Yeah, on, uh, that's the work that people are gonna pay attention to. It isn't, You know, it isn't shooting a commercial. So and we all of us can do that. All of us can go bring a camera into the workplace.

All of us can go to the bus station. All of us can go to the D. M. V and see if you could take some pictures. I don't know. There's a lot of cool stuff out there, and, uh, you know, it's not just taking pictures. It's telling the stories for sure that that might be your legacy. Your legacy is the stories that you tell so and the stories that

people tell about you. Yeah, totally. I mean, once again, going toe so much of what you talk about. You know, as far as just that, like cachet in all these memories and stuff, It's true. You know, I think so many people ignore their immediate surroundings, you know, and just the that every day in Look, I'm guilty of it all the time, but I think you're right that sometimes the most interesting thing might be right in front of you. But instead,

you've been inspired by, you know, some travel photographer on Instagram. And so your your whole idea photography is to go somewhere else and shoot, even though it might be right in front of you. And you could do it after you clock out of whatever job you

Well, I might argue. You know, I don't know this going. You have a 11 child.

I have two Children, Uh, 14 and 11.

14 year old. Yeah. Hey, easy, easy. Okay, you got you know, you've got a nuclear family, and you know, how valuable would it be to have a great photograph of you? All of you know, how valuable that? Well, at the moment, it's probably kind of valuable, but in 10 years, it's gonna be super valuable.

And then, like, 30 or 40 years or maybe even after you're not alive anymore, it's gonna be incredibly valuable. This is the alchemy of photography. And this is not true with landscape photography. It's a little bit true. Yes, you could be Ansel Adams to take some cool picture. I've taken tons of cool pictures of landscapes. Um, they're fine. Other people can take those photographs. I've never taken a photograph that other people can't take, except when it involves people, you know.

And this is what I love people in my photographs, because that's what makes the photographs unique on, uh, that's you know, So if we talk about value photographer, you know the value isn't just wet National Geographic things or what? How Time magazine. Thanks. Oh, are you know, we're even vote. It might be what? The people you know. It might be the value of that photograph to a single person or to a family. I know this is the alchemy of photography. It's amazing. You can take a photograph and have it be worth nothing. Cost you nothing and have it be somebody's most prized possession. Everyone listening today could go do that.

Today we're just to be able to look back at it. You know, twin looked, Tom goes back five fast, you know, And so to be able to look back or when you were talking about being in the navy and how you wish you would have been shooting during that time, like I have a lot of that and I was shooting at a pretty young age, and then I went through Ah, a phase of being involved in some sketchy stuff. But there were some really interesting characters, you know, And so I wish I would have been taking pictures of those characters. I wish I would have cash aid some of those memories because now I mean, the memories were great, but I have no visual evidence of any of that life you

want. You want to get in Life magazine, you get involved in sketchy stuff and bring a camera. David, Alan Harvey did that. That's how you, like, became big, huh? Your access to stuff that other people don't always see. There you go. Totally. Could be the average. Could be like, Think about she didn't inside of a gang. I mean, for the people that are in the gang,

what's their life? Every day they don't see anything particularly interesting about, uh But for a lot of people, they would say, Wow, this is really powerful and interesting stuff, and that's true. I was shooting an Inuit community in Greenland. They see it every day, right way. Don't see three year old with knives, carving up whales. You know, that's an unusual thing. Anyway, lots of steps,

a lot of stuff out there. And you know, you really, if you want to touch people's hearts, you know, goto old folks home get some stories. There's just so much good work to be done all around us. So if we're not inspired, it might be not the environment, it might be you.

So So it's totally I like

throwing a cup of coffee and thinking about it

like that. What about Let me ask you this, you know, coming from, ah, business background. Do you have any kind of habits and routines that you feel like maybe just straight photographers that don't have any business background? You know, Do you feel like you bring something to the table whether it's the organization or anything, that that ah helps you as a creative?

Yeah, that's a great question. You know, it's funny because you say it coming from a business background. I mean, honestly, if you really look at it, I've only done only did business for 10 years, right? Yeah, Your photo. I was more like I took a little detour into business, you know, that's a good question. Do I do anything? I mean, I don't think that there's anything particularly unique other than I guess maybe I have.

I have the confidence to go up and talk to anybody about anything, and I don't think that's necessarily because I was in business, but I probably helped a little bit, but I mean, people were and are able to do that really effectively. So one of things I work out with my students is needed to be confident in their approaches photographers and engaging with people. Yeah.

Yeah, that's big.

It takes in that which I have always had a good answer. You know, I'm methodical with my work, you know? I store my photos I'm using. I actually was mentoring a guy that took over Amazon photos. And I don't know if you're using Amazon photos. Do you know

about No, I don't even know about it.

I remember.

Yes. Yeah, I'm a proud member. Uh,

and, uh, well, get this. So Amazon is now doing free. Unlimited raw jay pack storage, huh? Crazy? Yeah. Crazy that iss. So now I have right now 24 they're still applauding right now. 24 information going upto Amazon. All my rocks. So the thing about right, I don't believe my Ross. So now I could go back in any trip and find instantly all of the photographs that were rejected. There's a great fighter,

so it's all taxable, intractable instantly. So this isn't related to your question exactly. Other than I am always looking for tools that make my job easier. And, you know, Google photos was good. But now this is the next generation. It's still not sufficient to know whether Amazon will still do this. 20 years and we're gonna, But it's I would recommend it for everybody was happy for your phone. It's free. I mean,

no, it's great. That is definitely related to the quote. You know, I'm always curious about, you know, people, just kind of anything that helps him, whether it's organization, whether it's inspiration, you know, just anything that kind of helps, um, along, keep moving. So definitely, definitely relates. What about like inspiration was, What do you think? Outside of outside of photography, where do you think you You pull the most inspiration creatively.

I read a lot of photo books. I read a lot of art books. I got a lot of museums. I talked a lot of people. You know, I do find that social is sometimes helpful in the sense that if you follow the right people, you can get. It's kind of like subscribing to photo books or magazines. I see a lot of work people are doing. It kind of gives me some interesting ideas. You know, I try to take a couple of workshops a year with unusual photographers that I admire just because I want to see what they're doing. And, uh, you know, they're pretty inexpensive on, especially when you're waiting.

I was just with Fred Lion from Lyons and 90 97 year old photographer in San Francisco. You know, you sit down with these people and you know, there's a lot to be learned there. So I guess there's a There's a lot of sources. I do worry a little bit that I'm feeling pretty good about my photography, which is always a kind of a time where I might need to kind of shake things up a little bit.

I like that. That's good, that man. That's a great attitude that I think a lot of people don't have. I mean, it's obvious just talking to you that you're very open to, ah, continuous growth, and that's where I see. I think that's where I see so many people fail is they get, they get good, you know, like good enough on. Then they stagnate there and they become bored and I just if I feel I feel like I was literally just talking about kids about this, that idea of just like taking critique and being no matter how good you are, whatever you do, being ableto to reevaluate

and go here, you know, maybe

you're right. Maybe I'll try it that way.

I think it's cool. You know, I was on the board of a drone company and I've been using drones quite a lot, and it's a pretty interesting I'm heading to Mexico tomorrow. Thio loom and I'm bringing my drone on. You know, it's pretty. It's pretty cool stuff, pretty fun. It's hard to find emotion in those photographs, but I mean, you could get some pretty interesting pictures. Especially plays like Antarctica are Greenland, where there's like epic landscapes, so there's lots of new tools. You know, a lot of people using video.

I don't. I shoot a little bit of video. I don't shoot that much. But I mean, for a lot of photographers, it's in this a necessary part of the work because somebody Hi, Rosie, they want video and film. I find it difficult to do both. I don't know if people are

better than me yet no it is. Yeah, it is definitely difficulty

loading. Feel like it's a video like You just can't

do it, Are you? Still we never talked about Nautilus Ventures. Is that's still

That's still a thing, eh? So I made some investments and mostly my friends cos maybe like maybe 80 of them. It's, you know, it's pretty good. I'm not doing quite as much of it. I don't think I'm not good at it. I believe in everybody. What is a b C? You have to say no.

Right. You need? Yeah.

Uh, yes, a lot of you know, they say 90% of startups fail, and I've observed that you no way have a kind of survivorship bias to be heard that term before. It's basically the people to come back and tell you their story, often times of the successful ones. So we just assumed that everyone is successful, but starting these companies are, you know, it's not true, you know. You know, it's pretty tough out there. It's pretty much like carnage. We just don't hear their stories, no stories of people that

have been successful and totally and even sometimes, like you said, I think that we tend to make the assumption that there more successful than they are. I mean, once again just doing this show and talking and just having a CZ Many conversations I've had you start realizing, You know, there's a lot of people that you that and they are at the upper echelon of photography. But that doesn't necessarily mean there getting paid really well for

E. Well, I think that that's true. I think basically, there just aren't that many incredibly financially six also photographers cause you know, you get hired by The New York Times, a staff photographer. It's like $200 a day if that's like the n b a for, like, photography, and maybe that's not true. Maybe that's fashion guitar, right? I just say I think we should all be reframing and that shouldn't necessarily be our objective. I think I mean, if you're about money, I mean,

I think that's sort of like you have to have enough money to live your life. I'm happy, but if you have that done, I mean all the data is more money is helpful to people, right? So I think it's about looking inside of ourselves and finding value in the work that we have. You know, I think that this is idea around six. This idea where we equate financial success and life success is a mistake. You know, I really do, I think, and a lot of cases. A lot of people are so focused on money, they think that will be the thing that will make them happy and never is. Never.

It's, yeah, yeah, if you're struggling, that's a different sort of thing. But there's no way to sort of get enough money to make yourself happy.

Completely agree. Yeah, if you do not that look, If you've done the work and you're happy and then you have money to than good for you, you know that's that's great.

That's not even be sufficient. I think happiness comes from a I kind of approach to life. It's on the Buddhist approach. Absolutely no. There's lots of very successful people that are very, very unhappy, so I think that that should give us that. I mean, I'm not hoping for unhappiness for people, but I do think is a human race. We need to refrain around what really matters, and you know, I love somebody who is just a kind person. As much as I love Bill Gates, I might those people equally, we need two new heroes, and I think some of those heroes are creatives doing work that inspires other people and makes people feel good tells important stories,

totally agree, Just people, you know. Yeah, the

hero's totally agreement because we just we've always and you know, not to take away from their success. But it's true that a society we tend to really worship what so many people just financial success, you know, or either financial success or celebrity. And I think so many people out there that air quietly behind the scenes doing amazing stuff, and we know they need to be heroes as well.

I kind of think so, like, teachers are heroes, you know? I mean, that's like, Anyway, we all know that things are changing. You know, millennials have already changed and then that's just accelerating. Where I think we do. People want purpose in their lives, you know, kind of a lot of people have gone through this phase of business success and now they say, Well, that's not, You know that wasn't enough

totally Yeah. Yeah. Once again, I think a lot of your story has that in it. And that's what I appreciate about it. Okay, Last question. I'll get you out of here always in the show the same way. And we have. We have put in advice throughout the show, but just closing advice you give to people whether they're trying to make it as a photographer or creative. Or maybe they're just, you know, trying to chase their passion. You know, like you you started out doing kind of, however you want to leave the show with. That's

a tough question, I guess I would say what I hope for Everyone is to pursue their passions without fear on dhe to be happy every day in their lives. The achievement of your objective will not make you happy. It's, uh, up to you today in this very moment, choose that kind of life. So

I guess that's that's beautiful. I think it's having the objective. Sometimes, you know, it's what I've found. Sometimes you achieve the objective, and then it's important to have another objective because, you know, the happiness level starts going down again.

Well, I've seen it over and over again in everything I've been involved in with some of the world's most successful people. And that is the scariest point in their lives. And when they get what they wanted and it sounds like a trite point, but it isn't there is no freedom at the top of the mountain. That's on Lee on the path, so we know that. But it's hard to internalize that point. So this is the struggle is the joy. You know, there is no achievement at the end that's going to give them what they want. The struggle is the joy. So

I love it.

You know, being on your show.

It's a beautiful, beautiful way to leave it. Well, Christopher, thank you so much for your time. Really enjoyed this conversation. I look all right, man. Thanks again. All right. There you go. Good story. Positive guy. Good message, Christopher of you listening. Thanks for taking the time. He's a busy man,

and I hope that inspires people much like he said to just do what they're passionate about. Not saying to quit your day job. But don't let the fact that you're not making a career out of your creative pursuits stop you from doing that creative pursuit. You just never. The one thing I I think I hear the most of doing this show is that sometimes it just happens. So that thing you're doing on the side creatively that brings you so much passion. Enjoy. One day it might become your career. It might not, but you just never know. So don't give up on the idea that your life could change. If you just keep working at it. I think that's where I'll leave it once again. Visual revolutionary dot com For all your info at Visual Revolutionary on Instagram and Facebook, that's another episode of visual revolutionary podcast. I'll be back next week.

I will talk to you, then, thank you, everyone for listening and being fans of the show. I am out piece.